[12:10] <troy_s> Look at the long term fundamental strengths of Ubuntu from a traditional marketing perspective:
[12:11] <coz_> ease of use
[12:11] <troy_s>  1) It is ethical (bikeshed about sabdfl, but ultimately, it is a free and open platform)
[12:11] <coz_> ease of installation
[12:11] <msikma> And it's a a fact that /these/ people are going to become more relevant constantly. We are constantly becoming more acquainted with technology, mostly thanks to the Web. The one huge killer app for personal computers. Everybody has a computer now. Heck, everybody has two.
[12:11] <TheSheep> msikma: I thought I'm pretty universal with all the windows and unix stuff, when I had to learn to admin IBM mainfrmes. This opened my eyes -- the knowledge of 'computer experts' is so tiny a fraction...
[12:11] <troy_s>  1) it performs the needs of a good sizable percentage of computer usage.  more if your knowledge is greater.
[12:11] <msikma> TheSheep: that's sort of outside of the scope of this system, though.
[12:11] <troy_s> (fecking wiki syntax :) 1. 1. 1. )
[12:12] <coz_> :)
[12:12] <troy_s>  3) Contributing to FOSS helps EVERYONE on EVERY platform in EVERY architecture
[12:12] <TheSheep> troy_s: moin has non-standard syntax for a wiki
[12:12] <troy_s> TheSheep I still find myself listing in it.
[12:12] <msikma> There is only one architecture [that really matters for a desktop operating system] .
[12:12] <troy_s> msikma -- that is dark ages mentality
[12:13] <troy_s> amd proved that paradigm wrong
[12:13] <troy_s> and others will follow
[12:13] <msikma> That will not be true in the future, but just thought I'd throw that out there.
[12:13] <TheSheep> msikma: and you're sure it won't change? :)
[12:13] <troy_s> the entire 64bit revolution is now all AMD
[12:13] <TheSheep> msikma: ah, ok
[12:13] <coz_> msikma, no every os has its place and uses
[12:13] <troy_s> Despite Intel, IBM's etc, attempts.
[12:14] <msikma> I'm not a processor expert, but I've heard reports that AMD's new line of processors is unlikely to outperform Intel's new line of processors.
[12:14] <troy_s> I guess fundamentally I see computing as important as politics.  I prefer to live in a free and democratic society, and I also choose to be vocal about the shortcomings of societies that don't abide by such rules.
[12:14] <troy_s> msikma -- that has nothing to do with amd64 architecture
[12:14] <coz_> msikma, that is a performance battle that hs been going on allways one year intel the next amd
[12:14] <troy_s> msikma -- the architecture that every 64bit box uses in mainstream now is AMD's.
[12:14] <msikma> I agree that people should become more aware of things like that, troy_s, but I don't contribute to Ubuntu for that reason [alone] .
[12:14] <troy_s> What I am saying, is that if we show the light to people -- that using say
[12:15] <troy_s> open codecs
[12:15] <troy_s> open standards
[12:15] <troy_s> etc.
[12:15] <msikma> What is "the light"? Define it.
[12:15] <troy_s> Solves a lot of problems -- companies don't need to spend money developing and bug shooting drivers for example.
[12:15] <coz_> troy_s, ok are you part of the marketing team?
[12:16] <troy_s> msikma -- the FOSS approach -- it works.  Instead of a company spending potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars on office -- use OpenOffice for example and write further gnu protected code to reach their paricular needs.
[12:16] <troy_s> Release it back into the wild, and poof... instantly viable business sense...
[12:16] <troy_s> Costs go down.
[12:16] <troy_s> Public at large benefits
[12:16] <msikma> If you'd ask me what "the light" is, I'd bounce the ball back and say that it's something that can't be attained until some key structural points of the computing world are brought to the free software world. It's coming there, but it still has a few hurdles to overcome.
[12:16] <troy_s> Data is long term
[12:16] <troy_s> etc.
[12:16] <coz_> troy_s, not necessarily
[12:16] <msikma> And one of these hurdles is something that I can help Ubuntu overcome.
[12:17] <msikma> Which is marketing. And design.
[12:17] <msikma> That's something we must all focus on.
[12:17] <coz_> troy_s, every large compnay has an IT department that writes things specific to the needs of that compnay
[12:17] <troy_s> msikma -- theoretically.  Although when you start talking about art and design, you are often bound up with ego and self-marketing.
[12:17] <coz_> it may be open source but that does not mean free
[12:17] <troy_s> by 'you'
[12:17] <troy_s> i mean the 'you at large' not msikma
[12:17] <troy_s> :)
[12:17] <coz_> and realesing to the public may be non  free to use
[12:17] <troy_s> coz_  GNU free.  Assured freedom
[12:18] <troy_s> which is again, not free in a utopian sense, but free to the best that our adversarial society can allow for right now.
[12:18] <coz_> troy_s, well i am not a propnent of FREE software for professioanl use
[12:18] <coz_> I want it to be a coslty application becasue it will be better
[12:18] <troy_s> coz_  but you probably don't have sufficient knowledge on that front to be making such bold claims.
[12:18] <troy_s> lol
[12:18] <msikma> troy_s: it all matters not. It's one of the hurdles, and one way or another, we're going to have to overcome it, or we cannot reach the finish.
[12:18] <coz_> oh yes I do
[12:18] <troy_s> coz_  Good thing you aren't running Google.  :)
[12:19] <coz_> troy_s, myu point is that , as an artist for example, if I relied on gimp, i wold fail
[12:19] <msikma> All else does not matter, and I'm not going to get involved in anything else.
[12:19] <troy_s> msikma -- but that will take planning and documentation -- something it seems that artists /programmers/etc don't do so well.
[12:19] <troy_s> coz_  as a trained artist myself, I could care less about what program is available.
[12:19] <msikma> Wikipedia is organized too.
[12:19] <coz_> mm troy_s as a digital artist, i do care what is avaialbe
[12:19] <troy_s> msikma -- I fear your quick needs will not be met.
[12:19] <msikma> It's possible with only a huge amount of people and a lot of desire.
[12:20] <troy_s> coz_  ever heard of imagemagick?
[12:20] <coz_> troy_s, not enough
[12:20] <TheSheep> imagemagick++
[12:20] <troy_s> coz_  you will be hard pressed to find a more powerful tool anywhere.
[12:20] <troy_s> coz_  commercial or otherwise.
[12:20] <TheSheep> and python-gimp is kewl too
[12:20] <coz_> well corel painter in my mind is the absolute application
[12:20] <troy_s> coz_  sometimes knowledge goes a long way.
[12:20] <coz_> for a painter
[12:20] <troy_s> coz_  and if you want to paint
[12:20] <troy_s> coz_  paint.  scanners are cheap.
[12:20] <troy_s> :)
[12:20] <coz_> troy_s, that is why I am talkning to  you
[12:21] <coz_> scanners ?
[12:21] <msikma> Ironically, I just looked up imagemagick and I found an example page that shows off the filters it has.
[12:21] <troy_s> coz_  personally, as someone who knows someone who graduated from the royal academy
[12:21] <msikma> (That's not exactly what I'm looking for when I click on "examples".)
[12:21] <troy_s> i would never suggest 'painting' on the computer.
[12:21] <troy_s> msikma -- it is a bit of a huge creature to try and describe.
[12:21] <TheSheep> troy_s: real world paint lacks undo ;)
[12:21] <coz_> troy_s,  as someon trained at CMu i would asy your are foolish for listening tohim
[12:21] <troy_s> msikma -- documents do ... stink :)(
[12:21] <troy_s> TheSheep -- that's part of the medium
[12:21] <msikma> troy_s: it doesn't exactly make me want to use it.
[12:22] <troy_s> coz_  LOL.
[12:22] <msikma> There is no "screenshots" link to be found in their menu.
[12:22] <troy_s> wtf is the cmu in long format?  university in there...
[12:22] <troy_s> creative...
[12:22] <troy_s> ?
[12:22] <TheSheep> troy_s: reminds me of those monks making mandalas from colored sand
[12:22] <msikma> I don't even need to look further to conclude that this project too is suffering from a good sense of marketing.
[12:22] <troy_s> msikma -- it is a tool.  like xlm
[12:22] <msikma> So?
[12:22] <troy_s> msikma -- unto itself, it does nothing.
[12:22] <TheSheep> msikma: imagemagick is a command line tool
[12:22] <msikma> Photoshop is a tool, except that one is used by millions.
[12:22] <troy_s> msikma -- who cares?
[12:23] <coz_> troy_s, everyone should care
[12:23] <msikma> You don't care that there aren't millions using what you claim is a powerful tool?
[12:23] <troy_s> msikma -- Ultimately, it is the tool in an artists hand.
[12:23] <TheSheep> msikma: a screenshot would show a black screen with some text L:)
[12:23] <troy_s> msikma -- knowledge and agency.
[12:23] <coz_> troy_s, with that I agree
[12:23] <troy_s> In the end, the tool matters not.
[12:23] <coz_> agreed
[12:23] <troy_s> It is the execution within a medium.
[12:23] <troy_s> And that, is what art is fundamentally about.
[12:23] <msikma> Then an examples page, TheSheep. Not one that shows off a bunch of stupid filters, but one that shows off how easy it is to use it to create powerful command line instructions with which to do alterations to an image that matter.
[12:24] <coz_> it is the final composition that is importatnt
[12:24] <troy_s> msikma -- you probably wont' find that.
[12:24] <TheSheep> troy_s: well, but in the real world, the choice of the medium plays some role :)
[12:24] <troy_s> msikma which probably addresses why millions aren't using it because they can't see it in 10 seconds.
[12:24] <coz_> TheSheep,  ins waht way?
[12:24] <TheSheep> msikma: it has a man page...
[12:24] <msikma> troy_s: yes, and that's EXACTLY what's wrong with a huge part of the FOSS community.
[12:24] <troy_s> TheSheep: Some.  Installations might argue against that.  (Installation art that is)
[12:25] <coz_> installation art yah not art
[12:25] <troy_s> it is what is wrong with us... either you are a part of it or you aren't.
[12:25] <troy_s> if you are, there is no one to blame but yourself.
[12:25] <troy_s> coz_  weird grey line in there somewhere.
[12:25] <coz_> troy_s, not in my mind it is like making a basket
[12:25] <troy_s> anyways, you bright feckers have kept me from finishing my chores damn you.
[12:25] <troy_s> coz_ blur the lines.
[12:25] <TheSheep> :P
[12:25] <TheSheep> troy_s: you're welcome
[12:26] <troy_s> coz_ every time someone says 'art is this' some artist comes along and kicks it in the ass.
[12:26] <troy_s> hence movements.
[12:26] <coz_> troy_s, true but infrequwntly
[12:26] <TheSheep> coz_: *every* time :)
[12:26] <troy_s> coz_  infrequently that the people gather under a collective banner and form an entire movement perhaps, but frequently with regards to styles and tendencies.
[12:26] <coz_> but infrequently
[12:27] <coz_> troy_s, it is difficult to state and represent clearly in text format what all of us might agree with if face to face
[12:27] <msikma> Anyway. This discussion is over for me if someone can tell me how many more years it's going to take for the FOSS community to realize that they shouldn't whine about fewer people using their products and simply start thinking straight to mend the problem instead.
[12:27] <msikma> The problem isn't the quality of the code or the things that the programs can do.
[12:28] <troy_s> coz_ and on Gimp-- i would agree that out of the box it might seem like it has some shortcomings, but to someone with the want to experiment, there is little it cant do that photoshop can... excepting 16bit per channel colour depth currently... imagemagick handles that well though.
[12:28] <TheSheep> the problem is too many peole claiming to know what the problem is ;0
[12:28] <troy_s> msikma -- i think that is where you don't see it -- they are.
[12:28] <coz_> troy_s, yes but struggling with an application is not good
[12:28] <troy_s> msikma many just carry on and produce
[12:28] <troy_s> they just create
[12:28] <coz_> either it is workable or not
[12:28] <troy_s> griping about things wont fix it.
[12:28] <coz_> gripe gripe gripe :)
[12:28] <troy_s> coz_ no, but again, i know many artists who like the challenge.
[12:29] <troy_s> coz_ i guess it depends on your art heritage :)
[12:29] <msikma> They create with no suitable design goals, no real desire to have a major crowd use their products, no real attempt to overthrow the large commercial alternatives that people are massively using.
[12:29] <troy_s> msikma and where does firefox fit into this?
[12:29] <msikma> Either they don't try or they're simply really ignorant and fail miserably at every attempt.
[12:29] <troy_s> msikma apach?
[12:29] <troy_s> msikma etc
[12:29] <coz_> msikma, agreed !
[12:29] <msikma> Not all of the FOSS community has this problem, I admit.
[12:29] <coz_> firefox?
[12:29] <msikma> And that's great. Firefox is an excellent example.
[12:29] <msikma> But the majority of the community has no clue.
[12:29] <troy_s> it isn't perfect either... evolutionary design
[12:29] <coz_> what ?
[12:29] <TheSheep> msikma: is "success" when you program does what you want, or when it is used by many people?
[12:29] <coz_> i ahve no clue
[12:30] <troy_s> but again, you need to CREATE the thigns
[12:30] <coz_> TheSheep, great question
[12:30] <troy_s> you can't just talk about it
[12:30] <troy_s> you must create it
[12:30] <msikma> TheSheep: to me, or to you?
[12:30] <troy_s> create create create create
[12:30] <coz_> msikma, to the whole picture
[12:30] <msikma> To the world?
[12:30] <msikma> Then the latter.
[12:30] <TheSheep> msikma: to you, I know what it is to me ;)
[12:31] <troy_s> msikma -- i don't know if i would be so bold as to pretending to know what the world thinks meaning is.
[12:31] <TheSheep> msikma: the people who make up "the world" will be gone in 50
[12:31] <troy_s> case in point, of the four people here talking, your statement doesn't represent two of them
[12:31] <coz_> asl will the programs
[12:31] <troy_s> and bandying all of the terms that i see on mailing lists like 'professional' and such
[12:31] <troy_s> is silly...
[12:31] <msikma> TheSheep: does that mean you'll happily wait for 50 years until Ubuntu becomes popular?
[12:31] <msikma> Seriously, that's not an argument.
[12:32] <troy_s> because if it comes down to credibility based on resume, most people should probably shut up :)
[12:32] <coz_> I can pass that test esily troy_s
[12:32] <TheSheep> msikma: I don't really care if it's popular, as long as it's good and I can use it
[12:32] <msikma> The reality is now. I make money and put food on the table today. I'll be retired in 50 years.
[12:32] <troy_s> _most_
[12:32] <msikma> TheSheep: caring about yourself isn't going to make Ubuntu popular with Joe Next Door.
[12:32] <msikma> And that is something that the FOSS community must realize.
[12:33] <coz_> msikma, well i agree again amazingly:)
[12:33] <troy_s> do you realize it msikma?
[12:33] <TheSheep> msikma: but why do you want to be popular with Joe?
[12:33] <troy_s> are you part of the FOSS community?
[12:33] <msikma> troy_s: do I need to be?
[12:33] <troy_s> I know I realize it and probably consider myself a part of it
[12:33] <troy_s> well you speak in vague generalities as to this 'us versus them' mentality
[12:33] <troy_s> what is FOSS?
[12:34] <troy_s> I think there are many people who would agree that it needs to grow in areas
[12:34] <troy_s> but again,
[12:34] <TheSheep> there is no spoon
[12:34] <troy_s> that's just a good idea
[12:34] <troy_s> until someone shows the execution thereof
[12:34] <msikma> TheSheep: because there is a problem. It's currently bug #1 on Launchpad. This problem can be mended, but it requires that we do make Ubuntu popular with that same Joe.
[12:34] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 1 in ichthux "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
[12:34] <troy_s> if you had free reign, which is what you have
[12:34] <troy_s> solve it.
[12:34] <msikma> Joe knows chkdsk and edlin, but not fsck or ed.
[12:34] <troy_s> solve it
[12:34] <troy_s> see my point?
[12:34] <troy_s> you have your ability to fix things
[12:34] <coz_> in my opinion this kind of conversation must be conducted face to face if any solutions are to be realized mut my opinion
[12:34] <troy_s> and to fix things, you must do them.
[12:34] <troy_s> execution
[12:34] <TheSheep> msikma: you're making quite a few assumptions here
[12:35] <troy_s> coz_ too old school.  dated.
[12:35] <troy_s> coz_  simply doesn't work nor happen often enough
[12:35] <TheSheep> shall I bring up a teamspeak server? :)
[12:35] <coz_> troy_s, mmm interesting outdated perception:)
[12:35] <msikma> It's past midnight here. I'm going to leave soon.
[12:35] <troy_s> coz_  for example, you and I probably would never have met in real life, nor even ever known of each other.
[12:35] <troy_s> great chat boyz
[12:35] <troy_s> now work on fixing the problem
[12:35] <coz_> yes true what has that to do with now getting togetrher
[12:36] <troy_s> it is only as difficult as implementing how _you_ think it should be done.
[12:36] <TheSheep> thanks for your discussion, I need to think about it now :)
[12:36] <troy_s> ditto
[12:36] <troy_s> TheSheep: and get me those blasted sketches
[12:36] <troy_s> TheSheep: check that link that msikma gave me
[12:36] <msikma> To reply to troy_s: I don't really care what the FOSS community is, actually. Everybody will explain it differently. The point is that Ubuntu is open source software and that it comes with a plethora of great applications that can be installed with just one terminal command. It's something. It's different from freeware or shareware.
[12:36] <troy_s> it has some pretty incredible work.
[12:36] <TheSheep> troy_s: where?
[12:36] <troy_s> msikma -- I think that is the point
[12:37] <coz_> mm too frustrating for my an ultimate goal to be acheived
[12:37] <troy_s> TheSheep: documents on the wiki
[12:37] <troy_s> coz_  no such creature.  just evolution.
[12:37] <msikma> There is but one thing that matters and it is currently the fact that we have a huge amount of excellent software just waiting to be used by people who can genuinely enjoy it, but the baby won't open its mouth.
[12:37] <troy_s> coz_ do something now that works, build on it.
[12:37] <msikma> We need a golden spoon for it to open its mouth.
[12:37] <troy_s> msikma -- i think it is happening
[12:37] <msikma> We don't have gold smelters.
[12:37] <coz_> troy_s, I am alot older that you may realize
[12:37] <troy_s> if you can develop a way for it to happen faster or better
[12:37] <troy_s> i would say do it.
[12:38] <msikma> Fine, so I will
[12:38] <troy_s> coz_ I am right beside you.
[12:38] <troy_s> msikma -- execution.
[12:38] <troy_s> coz_ I was suggesting that we don't really know where any of 'this' is heading... in terms of technology
[12:38] <troy_s> but we need to make certain that the bed made so that it can happen.
[12:38] <msikma> It's unfortunate that I'm not some kid who got bought out by Google for billions of USD because he decided to make a fancy Web 3.0 recipe search engine or whatever.
[12:39] <msikma> I gotta go to work tomorrow.
[12:39] <coz_> troy_s, and how do you conntect that with art?
[12:39] <msikma> I also work besides work, so that leaves me with little time to do anything else but complain like some old guy
[12:39] <coz_> msikma, hey I am an old guy:)
[12:39] <msikma> And make my own stuff, but they're not competing for default artwork in Ubuntu anyway.
[12:39] <msikma> It's small potatoes.
[12:40] <coz_> msikma, and you will be old someday too lol
[12:40] <msikma> You know, I'll try, troy_s.
[12:40] <msikma> I can't promise anything, but I'll do something.
[12:40] <troy_s> msikma LOL
[12:40] <troy_s> exactly... if we team up and build
[12:40] <troy_s> we have a hope
[12:41] <coz_> not really
[12:41] <troy_s> coz_  you are an artist and you probably get grumpy about situtations... consider that technology is one of those situations that might be preventing future growth if we let it lie in the hands of two bonkers companies.
[12:41] <troy_s> coz_ and that relates to art.
[12:41] <msikma> Yomar is going to teach me calligraphy, by the way, troy. :P
[12:41] <troy_s> coz_ but art in the traditional sense might be evolving too.
[12:41] <troy_s> msikma -- awsome!
[12:41] <msikma> In exchange for me teaching him HTML.
[12:42] <troy_s> great trade
[12:42] <coz_> troy_s, I understand that perception I want critical thinking and possible solutions for this
[12:42] <msikma> Yeah, it's really neat.
[12:42] <troy_s> coz_ but again, when you turn off the computer
[12:42] <troy_s> coz_ what is accomplished?
[12:42] <troy_s> have you documented it?
[12:42] <troy_s> have you changed anything?
[12:42] <troy_s> have you worked to spread anything newly thought up?
[12:42] <coz_> troy_s, the work of the dayu
[12:42] <coz_> day
[12:42] <coz_> that is wha tis accomplished
[12:42] <troy_s> in relationship to something such as Ubuntu however, it requires building / creating / executing.
[12:42] <msikma> I think Yomar might be concerned with the state of computer software if he knew what was going on. He's a real environmentalist for one thing.
[12:43] <msikma> Well, I'm leaving now
[12:43] <troy_s> and _that_ msikma
[12:43] <coz_> bye guy!
[12:43] <troy_s> is exactly the power of knoweldge
[12:43] <troy_s> take care my friend
[12:43] <msikma> yeah, see you later
[12:43] <troy_s> spread the word and keep the faith.
[12:43] <troy_s> so coz_, i would suggest that you figure out a way to formalize your dissention.
[12:43] <troy_s> (like any good artist)
[12:43] <troy_s> ;)
[12:44] <coz_> I have no real dissention other that fighting censorship at this point
[12:44] <troy_s> lol
[12:44] <coz_> :)
[12:44] <troy_s> coz_  oh yeah, moderators for the forums don't live in here.
[12:44] <troy_s> talk to ubuntudaemon
[12:44] <troy_s> he could probably help you out.
[12:44] <troy_s> but i know not for certain
[12:44] <troy_s> coz_  you should probably find a group to put your talents to work with in the community.
[12:44] <coz_> troy_s, no i am not concentrating on justubuntu censorship but ignorant americans in general
[12:45] <troy_s> coz_  by the way,
[12:45] <troy_s> i don't know if you are interested
[12:46] <troy_s> but if you _really_ want to try and change things...
[12:46] <troy_s> you might be able to greatly help out say, the GIMP or inkscape, by developing something amazing with it.
[12:46] <troy_s> as a challenge ...
[12:46] <troy_s> some shallow people DO care about screenshots and how someone made something.
[12:46] <coz_> troy_s, are you refering to a piece of work?
[12:46] <troy_s> and that is where you could make a sizable impression.
[12:46] <coz_> or programming
[12:46] <troy_s> coz_ absolutely.
[12:46] <troy_s> a piece of work
[12:46] <troy_s> a series
[12:46] <troy_s> perhaps
[12:47] <coz_> troy_s, done that laready
[12:47] <coz_> not appreciated
[12:47] <troy_s> then when someone says 'you can only produce something good with photoshop' you can say shut up.
[12:47] <troy_s> in gimp?
[12:47] <coz_> yep
[12:47] <troy_s> i would love to see your work... have a site?
[12:47] <coz_> nope but I can show youone fo a seies of african masks that i did
[12:48] <coz_> hold on
[12:48] <troy_s> tarball them all
[12:48] <troy_s> and email them to me ok?
[12:48] <troy_s> you can use jpg output or whatever
[12:48] <troy_s> i don't need the xcf's
[12:48] <TheSheep> troy_s: I'm sorry, I can't find any link in the backlog :(
[12:48] <coz_> nah i can show you one i am not interested in showing off or proving myself
[12:48] <TheSheep> troy_s: would you paste it?
[12:50] <troy_s> TheSheep -- do you have your launchpad set up with your email?
[12:50] <troy_s> You should get updates everytime something changes
[12:50] <TheSheep> hmm...
[12:50] <troy_s> (assuming it isn't flagged as non trivial)
[12:51] <troy_s> coz_ it isn't about proving yourself
[12:51] <TheSheep> troy_s: checking mail...
[12:51] <troy_s> coz_ i am genuinely interested in what you have generated
[12:52] <coz_> hold on have to reduce size for image shack to accept it
[12:52] <TheSheep> checking the spam box...
[12:53] <troy_s> coz_ you can tarball them all... hopefully you have more than one.
[12:53] <troy_s> TheSheep -- err...
[12:53] <troy_s> TheSheep: It is one of the reasons that Launchpad is so good at what it does.
[12:53] <troy_s> You get instant updates.
[12:53] <troy_s> At any rate, the changes are on the official guidelines
[12:53] <coz_> troy_s, it is a series of 15 works
[12:53] <TheSheep> troy_s: I don't :/
[12:54] <troy_s> coz_ terrific
[12:54] <coz_> had them posted on the forums for about 5 months
[12:54] <troy_s> TheSheep your spam protection is apparently working overtime or your bloody email is wrong at LP
[12:54] <coz_> a few people liked them but they are relistic, nearly photorealistic works
[12:54] <troy_s> coz_ I am extremely infrequent to the forums, and i never travel into the galleries.
[12:55] <coz_> well gimp is haveing a difficult time reducing the file size here hold on
[12:56] <troy_s> coz_ imagemagick :)
[12:56] <troy_s> do you know the syntax coz_?
[12:57] <troy_s> coz_ sudo apt-get install imagemagick
[12:57] <troy_s> coz_ then type "montage *.jpg" or whatever
[12:57] <troy_s> and it will create a thumbnail
[12:57] <troy_s> image
[12:57] <coz_> troy_s, I have imagemagic
[12:57] <troy_s> try montage -v *.jpg mythumbnails.png
[12:57] <troy_s> or something to that extent
[12:58] <coz_> I will get some of these reduced and post them for you at somepoint they are very large files becasue they are ech 300dpi in resoultion
[12:58] <coz_> so give me time here
[12:58] <troy_s> yes... imagemagick will crunch them fast
[12:58] <troy_s> what format are they in?
[12:58] <coz_> png
[12:58] <troy_s> try that montage trick
[12:58] <troy_s> here... let me create some thumbnails syntax for a reasonable level...
[12:59] <coz_> ill give it a wirls
[12:59] <troy_s> try this:
[12:59] <troy_s> cd into the dir with them
[01:00] <troy_s> montage -verbose -geometry 300 *.png contact_sheet.png
[01:00] <coz_> ok hold on
[01:00] <troy_s> the specification of only 300 will properly keep aspect ratio
[01:00] <troy_s> if you put say, 320x300 it will stretch to fit
[01:00] <troy_s> (again, that is a very simple ugly approach, but you can do far far more with it if you care to)
[01:00] <troy_s> it should provide status output
[01:00] <troy_s> if you type -monitor as an option
[01:01] <troy_s> it will give you % completed of each image.
[01:01] <troy_s> as in
[01:01] <troy_s> montage -monitor -geometry 300 *.png contact_sheet.png
[01:02] <troy_s> coz_ let me know how it goes... You should learn imagemagick... it is an amazing tool if you do any digital production work.
[01:02] <coz_> troy_s, well it is in the process of rezizing the images right now
[01:03] <troy_s> great
[01:03] <troy_s> it is also lightening fast
[01:03] <troy_s> as there is no gui to hog resources
[01:03] <troy_s> etc
[01:03] <troy_s> it will tap your processor to the limit and use every cycle.
[01:03] <coz_> still too lage to poist
[01:04] <troy_s> coz_ monitor option is very handy -- it sometimes seems like it is doing nothing when blurring a large image...
[01:04] <troy_s> ok...
[01:04] <coz_> large to post
[01:04] <troy_s> email me the thumbnail generated
[01:04] <coz_> ok
[01:04] <coz_> address
[01:04] <troy_s> what size is the thumbnail file my brother?
[01:04] <troy_s> troy dot sobotka at gmail dot com
[01:04] <coz_> 3.6
[01:04] <troy_s> 3.6 megs?
[01:04] <coz_> yep
[01:05] <troy_s> ok great.
[01:05] <troy_s> ship it on over...
[01:05] <troy_s> woot
[01:08] <coz_> hold on getting mail error
[01:09] <coz_> troy_s,
[01:09] <coz_> ok it is off, these were meant as illustrations to depict certain african tribes ceremonial msks
[01:10] <coz_> i slipped in another one nonrelated by accident
[01:13] <coz_> have you recieved ti?
[01:13] <coz_> troy_s, did you recieve it?
[01:13] <coz_> k
[01:14] <troy_s> coz_ sorry.. i was catching up on husbandry dutites
[01:14] <troy_s> duties even
[01:14] <coz_> lol
[01:14] <coz_> i truly understand
[01:14] <troy_s> had some outstanding bloody chores that were forgotten during our conversation
[01:15] <troy_s> its coming down now i believe
[01:15] <coz_> well they are off and one got slipped that is unrelated also these were meatn stricly as illustrations not final compisitons
[01:15] <troy_s> TheSheep you still here?
[01:15] <TheSheep> troy_s: yes
[01:15] <troy_s> coz_ Don't sweat it.  Again, I am pretty good with mocks etc.
[01:15] <coz_> troy_s, I believe you already know the difference between the two>?
[01:15] <TheSheep> troy_s: for a short while, it's getting really late here.
[01:15] <troy_s> coz_ is that all gimpwork?
[01:16] <coz_> yeah except for one or tow that Ihad to take into painter to get the proper brush dtokes i wanted
[01:16] <troy_s> TheSheep: Did you see that head work?
[01:16] <coz_> strokes
[01:16] <troy_s> by hammerdesign?
[01:16] <troy_s> coz_  you do know that you can control the rotation etc of the brush stroke in gimp (like photoshop) but it takes a little more knowledge to get to it.
[01:17] <troy_s> i know what you mean by getting the stroke you want
[01:17] <troy_s> those are wonderful works though
[01:17] <coz_> troy_s, yes but painter has natural brushes that are just amatter of choose and use
[01:17] <coz_> troy_s, thanks
[01:17] <troy_s> coz_ yes.. there are a few very good brush compilations out there in gimp land
[01:17] <troy_s> if you do a little searching.
[01:17] <troy_s> i don't know if it would be of any interest to you.
[01:18] <coz_> troy_s, i wll have to find natural brushed for gimp I have searched with little luck but continue the serach
[01:18] <troy_s> yes
[01:18] <troy_s> if you are meaning something with an organic tone
[01:18] <coz_> so there it is
[01:18] <troy_s> they have them
[01:18] <troy_s> i take it the fighters
[01:18] <troy_s> is the one you touched?
[01:18] <coz_> again only illustrations but worht something
[01:18] <troy_s> indeed.
[01:18] <troy_s> it just extends my firm belief that the tool matters not
[01:18] <coz_> troy_s, yes
[01:19] <troy_s> it is the person in control of them
[01:19] <coz_> troy_s, absolutely I agree
[01:19] <coz_> but tools help
[01:19] <troy_s> which is why it would be nice to see you generate more work
[01:19] <troy_s> have you tried inkscape?
[01:19] <troy_s> _a_mazing tool.
[01:19] <coz_> troy_s, oh yes as well as xara extreme and sodipodi
[01:19] <troy_s> xara is very good
[01:19] <alefteris> is there any new prososed artwork for feisty available?
[01:19] <troy_s> the thing that is most impressive in inkscape is a little known feature
[01:19] <coz_> troy_s, not until they support svg it isn't
[01:19] <troy_s> that you might be interested in
[01:19] <troy_s> alefteris: no
[01:19] <troy_s> alefteris: and there might not be any chage
[01:20] <troy_s> change
[01:20] <troy_s> coz_ the 'calligraphy' tool with a graphics tablet
[01:20] <troy_s> is pretty incredible for freehand work
[01:20] <coz_> I have intuos 3 tablet here
[01:20] <troy_s> as you can adjust the 'tremor' on the brush
[01:20] <troy_s> and it will track angle as well
[01:20] <troy_s> you should give it a try -- it is incredible for doing a sort of pen and ink styling
[01:20] <alefteris> troy_s, why is that? there is no interest or is there some other reason?
[01:20] <coz_> yes true
[01:21] <troy_s> but the tremor is the power -- it lets you create very organic looking strokes.
[01:21] <coz_> alefteris, conflicts in philosophy
[01:21] <troy_s> alefteris: long long long long story.  it is largely because sabdfl doesn't believe he can communicate with people who live apart from him.
[01:21] <troy_s> alefteris: among a plethora of other details
[01:21] <coz_> for sure
[01:21] <troy_s> alefteris: so he is using Cliff -- the fellow who did the dapper work
[01:21] <troy_s> www.spacejunkdesigns.com
[01:21] <troy_s> i think is his site
[01:22] <coz_> nope wrong link
[01:22] <troy_s> erm let me try
[01:22] <troy_s> http://www.spacejunkdesign.com/
[01:22] <troy_s> warning it is shitty old flash
[01:23] <troy_s> so warm up your older 32 bit browsers
[01:24] <coz_> well decent illustrator
[01:24] <coz_> troy_s, so this cliff live close to shuttlworth?
[01:25] <alefteris> yeah, quite good work.. its a shame he came up with this tereble default wallpaper..
[01:25] <alefteris> if it was his..
[01:25] <coz_> alefteris, lol
[01:25] <troy_s> apparently
[01:25] <coz_> makes you wonder?
[01:25] <troy_s> alefteris: hard to say
[01:25] <troy_s> alefteris: i don't know if cliff's design is as strong as it needs be or if shuttleworth got heavily involved.
[01:25] <troy_s> the wallpaper on dapper is definitely cliff's
[01:25] <alefteris> hehe
[01:26] <coz_> troy_s, poor choice even for dapper considering his illustrations
[01:26] <troy_s> alefteris: ultimately, i don't have too much faith in anyone who relies on flash to deliver their work
[01:26] <troy_s> good work should stand up alone on a bloody html document.
[01:26] <alefteris> being in space doesnt mean that you can make designs coming from space
[01:26] <troy_s> also, i find that the consistency is completely vacuous across the Usplash for Dapper, the Logon splash, and the wallpaper
[01:26] <troy_s> all created by him
[01:27] <troy_s> so I would hold him accountable... there is no consistency between the three.
[01:27] <troy_s> at all.
[01:27] <alefteris> I also hate flash
[01:27] <alefteris> exept from flash video that is
[01:27] <alefteris> ;)
[01:27] <troy_s> It is just a sad trick that I find tries to pull people away from evaluating the actual content.
[01:27] <troy_s> a gimmick
[01:28] <troy_s> for example, i just looked at coz_'s work from a thumbnail created in 10 seconds
[01:28] <troy_s> and you can tell that it is done by a competent hand.
[01:28] <troy_s> the medium is not the message unless you intend to make it so :)
[01:28] <coz_> troy_s, well I truly appreciate that few have said so
[01:28] <alefteris> where can i see coz_  work?
[01:28] <coz_> alefteris, no longer online
[01:28] <troy_s> coz_ I think you need to not worry about what people think (as you probably don't already) nor expect a response
[01:29] <troy_s> coz_  Just keep doing what you do and give the people agency to see it.
[01:29] <coz_> troy_s, i never do unless they censor me :)
[01:29] <troy_s> for example, twiddle with the montage
[01:29] <troy_s> and put your gimpwork up on the wiki
[01:29] <troy_s> in your home page -- takes about 3 seconds...
[01:29] <coz_> troy_s, another learning curve oh no ! ;)
[01:29] <troy_s> It isn't so much about 'showing off' but rather showing what you can do in GIMP assuming you shut up about it not being photoshop etc.
[01:30] <troy_s> and just get down to business like any self - respecting artist would when faced with a new challenge.
[01:30] <coz_> well troy_s true but i am honest about which works are done with what apps
[01:30] <troy_s> coz_ wiki's are so bloody powerful -- you will appreciate it after you put your stuff up.
[01:30] <troy_s> coz_ as you should be... and realistically it doesn't really matter to anyone with any sort of fundamental training / skillset
[01:31] <coz_> troy_s, I will try I am just in the middle of family issues right nwo and cannot be bothered with showing off which is not in my natire to begin with but i will look into it :)
[01:31] <troy_s> but to a few naive folks, those small details can make them choose an operating system
[01:31] <troy_s> coz_ again, it isn't about showing off... for example, xara has a page to show what can be done with their app etc.
[01:31] <coz_> troy_s, I agree and that is the resaon I poisted my work
[01:31] <coz_> not to show off but what one can acheive
[01:31] <troy_s> the best thing you can do is just ignore them all and keep trundling along... building a body of work using a given app.
[01:31] <troy_s> exactly
[01:32] <coz_> troy_s, however if i am to be censored i see no point
[01:32] <troy_s> realistically, in a good set of hands, the tools can be made to achieve very good effects
[01:32] <troy_s> coz_ that's the forums
[01:32] <troy_s> ignore them
[01:32] <troy_s> the devs do
[01:32] <troy_s>  :)
[01:32] <coz_> troy_s, I know I have to get into that mind set
[01:32] <troy_s> coz_ I think as a trained artist, you might need to really embrace that.
[01:33] <troy_s> coz_ The 'community' is rather like a meandering octopus
[01:33] <coz_> troy_s, you are of course correct  i will reconsider
[01:33] <alefteris> Another thing i hated is that the blubuntu artwork had some much banding on it. I realy like blue but I didn;t use it just because of the strong branding...
[01:33] <troy_s> it will murgle around doing nothing for a great period of time, but then when a good idea comes along, it strikes with lightning ferocity and speed.
[01:33] <coz_> well irc has a tendency to get to me after a while so I neda break for real !
[01:33] <troy_s> alefteris: the banding is two fold
[01:33] <troy_s> alefteris: 1) algorithm used when converting from SVG to PNG
[01:33] <coz_> i agree but I will return later honest for more discussion need to eat drinick and get offirc :)
[01:33] <troy_s> alefteris: which is much different in inkscape now
[01:34] <troy_s> alefteris: there is a small part of banding that cannot be overcome (16.7 million colours to the human eyes 17.3)
[01:34] <troy_s> alefteris: Ultimately though, true gradients in the real world are very much dithered, and a good alg should dither and us sub-sampling.
[01:34] <troy_s> phew.
[01:34] <troy_s> long, but you hopefully get the point.
[01:35] <alefteris> troy_s, sorry I meant branding :)
[01:35] <troy_s> Ugh
[01:35] <troy_s> shoot
[01:35] <troy_s> lllllol
[01:35] <alefteris> hehe
[01:35] <troy_s> alefteris: Do you know how to use Bzr?
[01:35] <alefteris> nop
[01:35] <alefteris> whats that?
[01:35] <troy_s> Erk.  no source svg's
[01:35] <troy_s> Are you on the mailing list?
[01:36] <troy_s> In the holy trinity of Ubuntu dev - Launchpad.net Bazaar and the Wiki
[01:36] <troy_s> Bazaar lets you check out hte sources
[01:36] <troy_s> let me send a mail off to who
[01:36] <alefteris> ok i know that you could take the source files, edit them, take out what you dont like and use them
[01:36] <alefteris> but most people will not bother doing that
[01:38] <alefteris> and i dont get the point of making an alternative color variation of the ubuntu theme and then putting all that extra branding on it
[01:38] <troy_s> alefteris: No, but if you learned bzr
[01:38] <troy_s> you could push revisions
[01:38] <troy_s> and it would become part of the package
[01:38] <troy_s> and removing the branding is about 3 seconds.
[01:38] <troy_s> Follow me?
[01:38] <troy_s> Bzr tracks the actual packages and source for Ubuntu -- so you could offer an alternate wallpaper for blubuntu and push it.
[01:39] <alefteris> so what that bzr, a versioning system for graphics?
[01:39] <troy_s> It is a versioning system like CVS SVN for everything
[01:39] <alefteris> a its the one ubuntu uses..
[01:39] <troy_s> wiki.ubuntu.com/Bzr is the start of the document
[01:39] <troy_s> I was writing for art folks etc
[01:39] <troy_s> It has enough information in it to pull sources
[01:42] <troy_s> Hopefully it will be clear enough for you to understand and use easily alefteris
[01:44] <alefteris> are there any desktop integration tools available for bazzar?
[01:46] <alefteris> troy_s, nice doc
[01:46] <troy_s> alefteris: do you mean gui tools?
[01:46] <troy_s> they are being worked on
[01:46] <troy_s> literally though
[01:46] <troy_s> it is exactly one line to pull a source stream
[01:46] <troy_s> and one to push
[01:46] <troy_s> three if you commit changes and push
[01:47] <troy_s> ;)
[01:48] <alefteris> ok, i dint get it. I know you can pull the sources, make you changes, rebuild and intall localy..
[01:49] <alefteris> but to commit what? and where? as a differend branch of a package?
[01:51] <alefteris> im doing crazy talk here, dont mind me.. :)
[01:54] <troy_s> alefteris: basically
[01:54] <troy_s> alefteris: in order to push to an official package, you will need to be on the proper team
[01:54] <troy_s> that said,
[01:54] <troy_s> you can pull a 'branch'
[01:54] <troy_s> using relatively the same syntax
[01:54] <alefteris> wall_troy_03.png is nice :)
[01:55] <troy_s> then PUSH the branch into your launchpad home
[01:55] <troy_s> erk?
[01:55] <troy_s> where is this?
[01:55] <troy_s> once you have pushed a 'branch'
[01:55] <alefteris> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/EdgyProposals/Summary_18JULY2006
[01:55] <troy_s> you can notify the powers that be and they can merge from it...
[01:55] <troy_s> oh lord... that is ages old.
[01:56] <troy_s> that mess was an attempt to have shuttlebot be happy
[01:56] <troy_s> in hindsight, it was a foolish attempt now knowing what his goals are.
[01:57] <troy_s> frank ended up pushing this for edgy:
[01:57] <alefteris> well from the rest of them, i like it best
[01:57] <troy_s> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/EdgyArtworkPlan/Produce/Incoming/CurrentDefault
[01:57] <troy_s> Had we not been so encumbered with sab's preferences, it probably would have yielded greater work.
[01:58] <troy_s> but alas...
[01:58] <troy_s> c'est la vie.
[02:04] <alefteris> did human thunderbird theme made it?
[02:06] <troy_s> erm?
[02:06] <troy_s> for feisty?
[02:06] <troy_s> or edgy?
[02:06] <alefteris> Here is something for feisty: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Feisty_test_GDM. uaauu, extraordinary ;)
[02:07] <troy_s> Yep.  Won't happen.
[02:07] <troy_s> There are a million GDMs out there... the only hope for that is if the author tries to get it into Universe etc.
[02:10] <troy_s> and again, it is a rather hap-hazard design approach to attempt to 'gather' the bits of good work out there.
[02:10] <alefteris> everytime i need some artwork from edgy i cant remember where i found it.. Could someone colect them at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Archives
[02:11] <alefteris> yeah, its not something new by any means
[02:16] <alefteris> where is the sources of the current edgy artwork located in the wiki?
[02:17] <alefteris> im looking for the ubuntu circle
[04:07] <troy_s> alefteris: You still around?
[04:07] <troy_s> The sources for the default edgy artwork I believe are in the ubuntu-artwork package (metapackage)
[04:07] <troy_s> track it down through bzr.
[04:08] <troy_s> alefteris: The Ubuntu CoF is available through the DiYMarketing page.
[10:39] <lapo> hi
[10:47] <BHSPitMonkey> yo
[11:52] <alefteris> how can i export a svg to pixmap and be 50% scaled with inkscape?
[11:53] <kwwii> alefteris: in the export dialogue
[11:53] <alefteris> sorry s/pixmap/bitmap
[11:53] <kwwii> simply reduce the pixel size in the options (reducing one size will automatically reduce the other)
[11:55] <kwwii> file-->export bitmap ... in the pop-up, change one of the values in the "bitmap size" part
[11:56] <alefteris> kwwii, ok thanks, i though this way would crop the image :|
[11:56] <kwwii> happy to help ;-)