[12:33] <cslater> Hi folks - wanted to let you know that the site I run - Instalinux - gives an option to install edubuntu now
[12:33] <cslater> For Edgy install
[12:33] <LaserJock> interesting, cool
[12:35] <cslater> You select Ubuntu, and then one of the options - under bundles - is to pick Edubuntu
[12:35] <cslater> Showed Edubuntu to some teachers recently btw - they were SO amazed.  Great stuff :)
[12:48] <LaserJock> cslater: great
[09:32] <LaserJock> cbx33: you really here?
[10:45] <cbx33> LaserJock: yes
[10:45] <cbx33> been up for about 4 hours now
[10:45] <cbx33> working on SCP
[10:45] <willvdl> LTCM if you please
[10:45] <cbx33> sorry willvdl
[10:46] <willvdl> :] 
[10:46] <cbx33> heheh
[10:49] <cbx33> how are you willvdl LaserJock ?
[10:49] <cbx33> willvdl: I managed to get hold of claire
[10:49] <willvdl> good. all sorted?
[10:49] <cbx33> yup
[10:51] <willvdl> !seen pips1
[10:51] <ubotu> I last saw pips1 (n=philipp@55-158.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch) 1d 11h 46m 49s ago, quiting: "Ex-Chat"
[10:52] <LaserJock> what does LTCM stand for now?
[10:55] <willvdl> Linux thin client manager?
[10:55] <LaserJock> ah
[10:56] <LaserJock> well, I suppose I better get to bed
[10:57] <LaserJock> almost 02:00 here
[10:58] <willvdl> nn
[10:58] <LaserJock> cya all tomorrow ... err later today ;-)
[10:58] <willvdl> ciao
[11:07] <pips1> willvdl: ping
[11:08] <willvdl> pong
[11:08] <pips1> sorry I'm late
[11:08] <pips1> I was talking to someone in the office
[11:08] <willvdl> no worries, my inbox is huge today
[11:09] <pips1> are you fine with chatting now?
[11:09] <willvdl> I'd just like to chat about web & wiki
[11:10] <willvdl> so that I'm in tune with your plans & goals and stuff
[11:10] <pips1> ok
[11:10] <willvdl> I started a https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWiki/Cleanup page for
[11:10] <willvdl> cleaning up our wiki.
[11:11] <willvdl> more as a resource for me but it proves quite handy.
[11:11] <pips1> wow that is a good structured page
[11:11] <willvdl> and a https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWiki/Archive so that I don't delete anything
[11:12] <willvdl> and I read through all your site planning pages
[11:13] <pips1> great. any questions lingering on your mind?
[11:13] <willvdl> now the www site has docs in it
[11:13] <willvdl> I asked Jerome about that
[11:14] <willvdl> he said it was a first pass at getting some solid docs like isntall guides etc.
[11:15] <willvdl> How do you feel about keeping such docs in the drupal site?
[11:16] <pips1> well... I'm not 100% sure of how things will change in the next months... I think RichEd should make the final decisions...
[11:16] <pips1> I can tell you what the two of us have talked about though
[11:17] <willvdl> okie
[11:17] <juliux> morning
[11:17] <pips1> There will be two "sites" (with individual domain names)
[11:18] <pips1> one is the official, already existing edubuntu.org/.com site
[11:18] <willvdl> and the new one
[11:18] <pips1> the other one is the to be developed edubuntu community site
[11:18] <willvdl> yeah
[11:18] <pips1> the first one will be fairly small and hold mostly static content
[11:19] <pips1> the second one will be (hopefully) very dynamic and community driven
[11:19] <willvdl> right
[11:20] <pips1> that's the *edubuntu*-specific side of things... it has to interweave with the whole other *buntu universe, of course
[11:20] <willvdl> how do you see that working?
[11:20] <willvdl> forums, ML, LP etc
[11:20] <willvdl> wiki...
[11:21] <pips1> Matt Nuzum is trying to improve the whole "official" ubuntu site and links to "sub-sites" / partner-sites situation, AFIAK
[11:21] <willvdl> ok
[11:22] <willvdl> will our wiki space stay where it is?
[11:22] <pips1> the important part is that people new to *buntu don't get lost...
[11:22] <willvdl> true
[11:22] <willvdl> ++
[11:23] <pips1> RichEd wants to "re-brand" the edubuntu wiki and align it better to the ubuntu wiki style
[11:23] <willvdl> in look and feel?
[11:23] <willvdl> or content structure
[11:25] <pips1> both wikis are in the same repository, so that you can find any wiki page e.g. /EdubuntuWiki at *both* domains wiki.u.c and wiki.edubuntu.org ... the look depends on what domain you use...
[11:25] <willvdl> not really. the look depends on the stylesheet you choose in your settings (if logged in)
[11:25] <willvdl> but I'm with you there
[11:26] <pips1> ok, you can override styles in your settings, but most first time visitory and novice users wont really know about individual settings
[11:26] <pips1> *visitors
[11:27] <willvdl> OK. our wiki stays physically where it is though right?
[11:27] <pips1> yes
[11:27] <willvdl> cool. same with forums?
[11:28] <pips1> personally, I feel that wikis are the way forward for collaborative documentation. wikipedia...
[11:29] <willvdl> true. you familiar with help.ubuntu.com?
[11:29] <pips1> the forums will stay where they are... but we will try to center/encourage educational topics on our new drupal community site
[11:30] <willvdl> gotcha. I'm aware of the scope of the new community scope
[11:30] <willvdl> (and am quite excited about it)
[11:30] <willvdl> OK, lets get back to documentation...
[11:30] <pips1> i.e. use drupal forums feature for educational topics and keep the more "pure" technical topics in the ubuntuforums area
[11:31] <pips1> i haven't really read much on help.u.c so far
[11:31] <willvdl> well, help.u.c has a wiki for all *buntu wiki docs
[11:31] <pips1> but I'm aware it exists... I don't really know what is going on in the whole documentation space though
[11:32] <willvdl> and wiki.u.c is the planning/collaboration/LP spec/everything else wiki space
[11:32] <pips1> right
[11:32] <willvdl> in short: *buntu Documentation goes on help.u.c
[11:32] <pips1> that's what I figured so far
[11:32] <willvdl> easy enough :) but confusing sometimes. Doc team is working on making it clear
[11:33] <pips1> you are talking about *polished* / finalised documentation on help.u.c, right?
[11:33] <willvdl> well, there are the "packaged" SVN docs
[11:33] <pips1> what isn't clear to me is the *process* of documentation
[11:33] <willvdl> and the wiki space
[11:33] <willvdl> their is the SVN repository which can be previewed on doc.ubuntu.com
[11:34] <willvdl> I'll write a page to demysity it as soon as I can
[11:34] <willvdl> demystify rather
[11:34] <pips1> ah, I almost forgot about doc.u.c
[11:34] <willvdl> pips1, essentially the community works on the wiki to produce info
[11:34] <pips1> so what is the difference about doc.u.c and help.u.c ?
[11:34] <willvdl> and then community also takes that info and pops it into docbook in the SVN
[11:35] <willvdl> doc.u.c is a WIP snapshot
[11:35] <pips1> ic
[11:35] <willvdl> help.u.c is a tagged release i.e.edgy docs etc.
[11:35] <pips1> ok
[11:35] <willvdl> the docs in the SVN get packaged into ubuntu-docs.deb etc and released
[11:36] <pips1> are there people working offline and using only the svn repository ? or does everybody use the wiki web interface?
[11:36] <willvdl> they go into yelp, khelpcentre etc., browser startpage, PDF...anything
[11:36] <willvdl> pips1, there are guys who work mostly on SVN
[11:36] <willvdl> not many but enough (edubuntu lacks though... ++ for nixternal and LAserJock)
[11:37] <cbx33> LTCM has tileable vnc viewer
[11:37] <cbx33> ;)
[11:37] <cbx33> awesome of what
[11:37] <willvdl> cbx33 ++
[11:37] <pips1> i see, does the "svn direct input" stuff surface on the doc.u.c wiki ? on how? (what interval, etc?)
[11:37] <cbx33> only problem is it's a little intensive on the old cpu at the moment
[11:37] <cbx33> will be sorting that out asap
[11:37] <cbx33> but concept wise it's there
[11:37] <willvdl> pips1 not sure of the frequency of the build. hope it is daily
[11:38] <willvdl> but svn checkout is always current
[11:39] <willvdl> it is subtle what info goes in SVN but I'd like to think that the core work gets done on wiki and the SVN authors just pull the info into docbook from the wiki
[11:39] <pips1> ok, so the snv stuff is published on the doc.u.c wiki... is that content locked? or can people change those pages through wiki-editing? (and if so, doesn't that break versioning of svn)?
[11:40] <willvdl> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/DocumentationTeam has a guide on contributing
[11:40] <willvdl> basically, you can be granted SVN access if you prove yourself
[11:40] <willvdl> you prove yourself by supplying patches to the docs
[11:41] <willvdl> no wiki editing unfortunately
[11:41] <pips1> so if I want to suggest a change for a page on doc.u.c, I have to formally apply with a 'change patch'? ah....
[11:42] <willvdl> yip. until you get access like cbx33 :)
[11:42] <willvdl> this process seems to work fine cause the docteam are quite good at it
[11:42] <pips1> wow, I thought that people can edit wiki-wise... wow
[11:43] <willvdl> the wiki is free-for-all, the svn is a little better protected or moderated
[11:43] <pips1> So most wiki-editing features aren't really used at all on doc.u.c !
[11:43] <willvdl> the reason being that the svn info gets packaged and is "official"
[11:43] <willvdl> doc.u.c is not a wiki
[11:43] <pips1> ahhh ok
[11:44] <willvdl> edubuntu's current problem is either a lack of docs or a lack of structure for our docs
[11:44] <pips1> hold on.. is help.u.c a wiki?
[11:45] <willvdl> help.u.c frontpage is static
[11:45] <willvdl> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/DocumentationTeam is wiki
[11:45] <willvdl> oops, sorry
[11:45] <willvdl> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UserDocumentation is wiki
[11:46] <pips1> oh
[11:46] <willvdl> there are pro's and con's on this structure but if you check th ML's you'll see it was not an easy or quick debate :)
[11:47] <willvdl> anyway, the technical docs we have in our drupal site *should* logically go into SVN docbook docs
[11:47] <pips1> so people can edit wiki pages "below" https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UserDocumentation I take it?
[11:47] <willvdl> yip
[11:47] <willvdl> delete/rename privilages are not free though
[11:48] <pips1> so what is the "hierarchy" system for documentors? svn rights, wiki delete/rename rights?
[11:49] <willvdl> something like that
[11:49] <willvdl> but SVN docs and wiki docs, although related, are not the same thing
[11:49] <pips1> or do you get both access to svn and wiki editing if you proved yourself?
[11:49] <willvdl> to edit/create wiki pages on help.u.c is free to all
[11:49] <pips1> i mean you gain access in one step
[11:50] <willvdl> delete/rename rights, I'm not sure
[11:50] <willvdl> maybe join ubuntu-website team or something... don't know
[11:50] <willvdl> but you can always request that action through LP or email etc.
[11:51] <pips1> I see how the process (and storage) is different for snv and help.u.c documentation, but what is the logical difference regarding those two "kinds" of documentation?
[11:51] <willvdl> good question :)
[11:51] <willvdl> well,
[11:52] <willvdl> SVN docs are "official" and get packaged. they appear on the website as official docs, the go into the desktop Yelp system and PDF versions
[11:52] <willvdl> there is little margin for error in them
[11:52] <pips1> right
[11:52] <willvdl> The SVN authors either get their info from the wiki docs (free to contributions) or from their own heads
[11:53] <willvdl> I like this structure given one thing:
[11:53] <pips1> so the wiki docs are some sort of "staging" area for the official docs..
[11:53] <willvdl> yeah. essentially.
[11:54] <willvdl> as such they will generally contain more info but may not necessarily be wellw ritten etc.
[11:54] <willvdl> The SVN docs are easily tagged to release. Edgy docs vs dapper docs etc. SVN does that naturally
[11:54] <willvdl> but the wiki doesn't
[11:55] <willvdl> so I'm a little concerned about info on the wiki that goes out of date.
[11:55] <pips1> i understand
[11:55] <willvdl> hence my interest in the HelpWikiQualityAssurance spec
[11:55] <willvdl> but it si easily dealt with, just need consistency
[11:56] <willvdl> and as ogra suggested, good use of wiki namespaces
[11:56] <willvdl> or categories etc.
[11:57] <pips1> also, I do wonder how they make sure that inter-documentation references work... I suppose that the snv documentors need to re-link everything when they take a wiki doc page and destill it into a snv doc page/element
[11:57] <willvdl> you'll see contributions to SVN docs come as: email suggestions, patches sent to editors, irc conversations or Launchpad bugs
[11:58] <willvdl> yeah, I'm out of date with docbook tech but they do something like that
[11:58] <pips1> wow, those documentors are doing a trememdous job!
[11:58] <willvdl> #ubuntu-doc is a good channel
[11:58] <pips1> tremendous
[11:59] <willvdl> The doc team has some good guys in it
[11:59] <willvdl> very dedicated
[11:59] <willvdl> I'd like to ask you a quick question?
[11:59] <pips1> go ahead
[11:59] <willvdl> we have some "overlap" on the www and wiki site
[12:00] <willvdl> frontpage, community page, getting help page etc.
[12:00] <pips1> which www site? are you talking about www.edubuntu.org and wiki.edubuntu.org ?
[12:00] <willvdl> yes
[12:00] <pips1> what do you mean by overlap
[12:00] <pips1> ?
[12:01] <willvdl> well
[12:01] <willvdl> take the frontpages for each
[12:01] <willvdl> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWiki & http://www.edubuntu.org/
[12:01] <willvdl> same info, slightly different in places
[12:02] <willvdl> http://www.edubuntu.org/Community & https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCommunity
[12:02] <willvdl> the wiki is generally a bit out of date
[12:02] <willvdl> compared to www site
[12:03] <pips1> right
[12:03] <willvdl> I think we should try and decide what will go on www site and delete it from the wiki
[12:04] <willvdl> i.e. community page is pretty static, may change once a year.
[12:04] <pips1> let's take a step back
[12:05] <pips1> let's consider two aspects
[12:05] <pips1> people who contribute information to sites, and novices that make their first steps with the *ubuntu universe
[12:06] <willvdl> ok?
[12:06] <pips1> now, let's just look at the people who contribute, and their tools
[12:07] <willvdl> wiki, docbook, drupal etc?
[12:07] <pips1> let's assume that everyone who contributes the most "official" stuff is knowlegable about the tools and process the most
[12:07] <willvdl> right
[12:08] <pips1> those people are happy to use any tool... generally speaking
[12:08] <willvdl> yeah
[12:09] <pips1> for technical people, they will use command line snv tools, through-the-web wiki editing... you name it they can do it (although they might have distinct preferences)
[12:09] <willvdl> novices will most likely start with wiki editing?
[12:10] <pips1> then, there might be an intermediate group... I always thought that these people are happy to learn wiki-syntax, which doesn't come 100% naturally
[12:10] <pips1> novices... hm
[12:10] <pips1> I think of wiki-editors as intermediate
[12:10] <willvdl> ok I'm with you
[12:12] <pips1> keep in mind, most of the ubuntu community is currently still slanted towards people who are generally fond and fascinated by new technology
[12:12] <willvdl> uhuh
[12:13] <pips1> so if you look at this "elite", the wiki-editors might appear as novice... but when you target people that aren't technologists, they are intermediate
[12:13] <willvdl> so novices are more like: email
[12:14] <pips1> the "true" novice might use email, and possibly forums (with wysiwyg editors)
[12:14] <pips1> also, novices might not be so good to navigate the www
[12:15] <willvdl> if the www is made too complex that is
[12:15] <pips1> they don't google their way around... they find a site, and then try to discover stuff from there... by navigation links on the site.
[12:16] <willvdl> so "core" links and info must stem from the front page
[12:16] <pips1> the *buntu universe is rather complex: with official site, LP, wiki, forums, ML, etc., etc.
[12:16] <willvdl> :)
[12:16] <pips1> mind you, I'm still talking with people in mind who will *contribute* stuff
[12:17] <juliux> willvdl, i ordered some powered by edubuntu stickers by jenda;)
[12:17] <willvdl> juliux, didn't know we had any :)
[12:17] <pips1> e.g. educators who want to contribute to the edubuntu project, or simply who want to discuss and share something about education
[12:17] <juliux> willvdl, we will have now some;)
[12:18] <willvdl> pips1, how does this relate to the wiki vs www?
[12:20] <pips1> to cut it short: I think we should use the wiki as an "editing/contribution tool" for all "official and semi-official information"
[12:20] <pips1> edubuntu.org doesn't really need to be a drupal site
[12:21] <pips1> but the edubuntu community site does
[12:21] <willvdl> true. but for edubuntu.org to have nice news reels etc, it helps to use a CMS
[12:21] <willvdl> mind you, that is Matt Nuzum's domain right?
[12:21] <pips1> hmm
[12:22] <pips1> what do you mean by "that" is "Matt Nuzum's domain" ?
[12:22] <willvdl> meaning edubuntu.org, kubuntu.com and ubuntu.com is his responsability?
[12:23] <pips1> well, I guess it is his responsibility technically.
[12:23] <willvdl> anyway, not really important
[12:23] <pips1> right
[12:24] <willvdl> so what stuff would you keep on the www.e.org rather than the wiki?
[12:24] <pips1> anyway, I think the line goes more along "official and (fairly) static" and "community and very dynamic"
[12:26] <willvdl> planet, fridge etc I think
[12:26] <willvdl> and a banner at top of www.u.c
[12:26] <pips1> right! fridge is drupal powered
[12:27] <willvdl> www.u.c has "news" stories in nodes on frontpage
[12:27] <willvdl> but mainly release announcements etc.
[12:27] <pips1> let's try to distinguish 'content creation' and 'content display'
[12:28] <willvdl> easy enough
[12:28] <pips1> I think the content creation is done in drupal and then that content is syndicated to other places via rss feeds, no?
[12:28] <willvdl> for fridge?
[12:29] <pips1> I'm not sure how it works, really, but my guess is that news items on the fridge authored in drupal.
[12:29] <pips1> and individual noteworthy news items might then by fed into the u.c site
[12:30] <pips1> but I'm not sure how it's done, really
[12:30] <willvdl> there is a page explaining how it works
[12:30] <pips1> there is?
[12:31] <willvdl> can't remember where. anyway we digress :)
[12:32] <willvdl> let's start a temp wiki page for deciding what info/page goes on www site and what goes on wiki?
[12:33] <willvdl> I think this is relative priority since I've already had mails along the lines of people not knowing which info is the right stuff
[12:34] <willvdl> got confused between duplicate info that was slightly different or dated
[12:34] <pips1> well, what I'm trying to get at is that the "ubuntu world" uses specialised tools for each "task". they have wiki for (lots of things, but amongst them the official static site), drupal for news, vBulletin for ubuntuforums, ...
[12:35] <willvdl> uhuh
[12:35] <pips1> however, for our edubuntu "niche", I suggest use the wiki for the official site and drupal as a combined news+forums site
[12:36] <willvdl> you're talking about the new community site?
[12:36] <pips1> most of the news will be community driven anyway
[12:36] <pips1> yes
[12:36] <willvdl> ah, I'm talking about the official site
[12:37] <pips1> well, I suggest that we might as well convert everything on the current edubuntu.org official site into the wiki, as locked pages ?
[12:37] <willvdl> ok
[12:38] <pips1> similar to how it is done for u.c
[12:38] <willvdl> okay.
[12:38] <willvdl> either way
[12:38] <pips1> there are some static and locked wiki pages that are the official info, but they reside in the wiki nevertheless (i think)
[12:39] <willvdl> ok. the www.e.org will then link to wiki pages for community, how to contribute, etc
[12:39] <pips1> right, you what to get the duplication problem sorted
[12:39] <willvdl> I have no problem with having some "Static" pages on the www.e.org site for "where the community is"
[12:40] <willvdl> "how to contribute" etc.
[12:40] <pips1> all the basic and static info can end up in locked wiki pages, IMO
[12:40] <willvdl> but whether it is on www or wiki is not really a problem
[12:40] <willvdl> fine with me.
[12:40] <pips1> when will RichEd be back?
[12:41] <willvdl> not sure, next week?
[12:41] <willvdl> I'll start a process of updating the wiki pages so that the www site has something to link to
[12:41] <pips1> I would like him to be on the same page...
[12:41] <cbx33> whos good with network units?
[12:41] <cbx33> I have a 35kb/s
[12:41] <cbx33> is that high or low
[12:42] <cbx33> comparred to a 100Mb/s connection
[12:42] <willvdl> pips1, agreed
[12:42] <willvdl> cbx33: 512kbps x 1000 = 512 000 bps
[12:42] <willvdl> 512 000 bps / 8 = 64 000 Bps
[12:42] <willvdl> 64 000 Bps / 1024 = 62.5 kBps
[12:43] <cbx33> and so?
[12:43] <willvdl> just to help with conversion
[12:43] <willvdl> pips1, I think we're on the same page
[12:44] <cbx33> willvdl: thanks
[12:44] <pips1> I think so too, but I haven't talked to RichEd since UDS MV
[12:44] <willvdl> as this progresses, I'll try and input info as to how we use LP, ML etc
[12:44] <willvdl> have a look at https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCommunity/LaunchpadStructure
[12:45] <pips1> and while we have talked through a lot of things, we still need to agree on the exact plan and next steps
[12:45] <willvdl> well, I'd like to seperate the new community site from the official site
[12:46] <willvdl> and start working on a crisp and clear official edubuntu wiki space
[12:46] <pips1> fine with me :-)
[12:46] <willvdl> secondary: move docs that are on www.e.org into doc-team space and hopefully into the handbook or isntall guide or something
[12:47] <willvdl> My main problem is that I am running out of time to work on docs :)
[12:47] <willvdl> as of Feb I am going to be on the road until April
[12:48] <cbx33> yikes
[12:48] <willvdl> pips1 I think priority is our "front" page and core links from it.
[12:49] <pips1> sure
[12:49] <willvdl> for new users and existing users who want to contribute
[12:49] <willvdl> I'd like to clear that up first.
[12:49] <willvdl> 2) move technical docs to right place
[12:49] <pips1> mind you, there are currently only 9 pages in drupal that could move to the wiki, it isn't a lot
[12:49] <willvdl> yeah, shouldn't take long
[12:50] <willvdl> we have wiki weekend coming up. maybe use that
[12:50] <pips1> this weekend?
[12:50] <willvdl> 3) look to see how we can get our edubuntu docteam and web team more inline and integrated with ubuntu teams
[12:50] <willvdl> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiTeam/WikiWeekend
[12:51] <willvdl> 4) see how new community site works with official site
[12:51] <willvdl> what you think?
[12:52] <pips1> I'm ok with those points.
[12:53] <pips1> for 1) I can certainly change the links from the front page once content (9 pages) has moved to wiki pages
[12:53] <willvdl> cool. I'll start work on 1). It won't affect anything anyone should our minds change etc.
[12:54] <willvdl> pips1, what do you think about wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWiki vs wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu?
[12:54] <pips1> I think 2) is a good move, since there needs to be some official documentation on LTSP that is shipped in edubuntu (Yelp)
[12:54] <willvdl> sbalneav is on it
[12:55] <willvdl> I'm hoping it can get into server guide too
[12:55] <pips1> wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu is probably better
[12:55] <willvdl> yeah, more in line with Kubuntu etc.
[12:55] <pips1> but then again, I don't know how your names space for the wiki should work
[12:56] <willvdl> We should check with the community though as it will affect peoples links and style
[12:56] <pips1> s/your namespace/the namespace
[12:56] <willvdl> EdubuntuWiki is redundant since it is already a wiki :)
[12:56] <willvdl> wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu as a frontpage make sense to me
[12:57] <willvdl> it is already there
[12:57] <willvdl> let's use that and just redirect from edubuntuwiki so that no one is affected
[12:58] <pips1> right
[12:58] <willvdl> any sub-pages to edubuntuwiki were written by me so I'm happy to move them :)
[12:59] <willvdl> have you thought of potential names for new comm site?
[01:00] <pips1> RichEd already got the name, but let's not mention it just here just now :-)
[01:00] <willvdl> no prob :)
[01:01] <willvdl> okie, I must run for now but will be back later
[01:01] <willvdl> pips1, great chatting to you. thanks for the help
[01:03] <pips1> regarding 3) in general, I think it is good to "integrate" teams, but mind you, you might want to talk to people rather then just "reassigning" them :) it's not a big deal though, since we are only few and you probably already talked to most (?)
[01:04] <willvdl> absolutely.
[01:04] <pips1> ok, good talking to you, cu
[01:04] <willvdl> I try to do that in all the edubuntu meetings
[01:04] <willvdl> most of the doc contributers are members of the doc-team
[01:04] <willvdl> so moving stuff to doc-team space is no problem
[01:05] <pips1> just to let you know, I am now getting lots of doc-wiki related email, so I might actually sign off from the edubuntu-doc-team to avoid them... I don't have time to read them.
[01:05] <willvdl> no worries
[01:07] <pips1> I'm just telling you that as a "feedback" so you know what reactions you might get when you did the "sub-teams" arrangement in LP :-)
[01:08] <willvdl> noted, thanks
[01:08] <willvdl> anyhoo, I must run now. catch you all in a few hours
[01:14] <pips1> got to go too, cu folks
[01:52] <AstralJava> Hey all! Does anyone else have problems with usb pendrives on ltsp clients? I have a situation where some stuff on the drive can be seen, but not everything that you can see on another machine, say like a normal linux laptop. For instance there are two directories, only one of which is accessible on the ltsp client machine. The drive is mounted normally every time, and no weird messages can be found in the logs, least the logs I am 
[01:53] <ogra> AstralJava, nope, i havent see that ...
[01:53] <AstralJava> The system is actually not Edubuntu. It's very much like it, thought. Base install is from Dapper.
[01:53] <AstralJava> Okay thanks ogra!
[01:53] <ogra> dapper had no localdev support
[01:54] <ogra> thats only in since edgy
[01:54] <AstralJava> Hmm, I'll go look that one up.
[01:54] <ogra> in edgy its the default
[01:54] <ogra> (in edubuntu)
[01:54] <ogra> and easy to enable in normal ubuntu
[01:55] <AstralJava> Right on.
[01:55] <ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EnableLTSP5LocalDevices has some hints for edgy
[01:56] <AstralJava> Thanks!
[02:07] <cbx33> ogra you there?
[02:07] <cbx33> dude I have two vnc sessions in the LTCM window
[02:07] <ogra> cbx33, yes, but not for long discussions
[02:07] <cbx33> no no...it's just a w00t statement
[02:07] <ogra> what does th eL stand for ?
[02:07] <cbx33> LTSP
[02:07] <ogra> in LTCM =
[02:07] <cbx33> I thought
[02:07] <ogra> nah
[02:07] <cbx33> just TCM
[02:07] <ogra> target of the renaming is to suppress the LTSP name
[02:08] <cbx33> ok
[02:08] <cbx33> dude it's working
[02:08] <ogra> we'll have TCM and TCC
[02:08] <ogra> thats great
[02:08] <cbx33> and load on the server isn't too high either
[02:08] <ogra> congrats
[02:08] <ogra> do yu read ubuntu-users ?
[02:08] <cbx33> I've sent an email to the redhat guys but no responece yet
[02:08] <cbx33> not usually....
[02:08] <cbx33> y?
[02:08] <ogra> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2007-January/104937.html
[02:09] <cbx33> heheh
[02:09] <cbx33> well, the network throughput isn't massive from my simple tests
[02:10] <cbx33> and plus it's going the other way
[02:10] <cbx33> so we should be ok
[02:10] <cbx33> bad news....x11vnc doesn't seem to support compression
[02:10] <cbx33> and scaling breaks the viewer
[02:11] <ogra> well
[02:12] <ogra> if you find a server implementation we can support that does these things we'll use that one ... else we'll have to ive with x11vnc
[03:01] <AstralJava> ogra: Just to bug you some more about the usb drive issue, I confirmed that we are using the ltsp-4.2.x package that has ltspfs included.
[03:01] <AstralJava> So have you got any ideas on how to investigate the problem?
[03:07] <AstralJava> Bit more info, it seems that usb stick mount point $(HOME)/Drives/ doesn't get cleared everytime the stick is unmounted. Not sure if it tells you anything.
[03:35] <ogra> AstralJava, ltsp 4.2 is obsolete from edgy on, upstream just switches to ltsp5, all development is going on there
[03:35] <ogra> if you have probs with 4.2 look at the ltsp.org wiki
[03:35] <ogra> we dont support it ...
[03:37] <ogra> search for ltspfs checklist there ..., the 4.2 implementation is pretty different to the ltspfs in ltsp5
[03:38] <AstralJava> Right, okay. Thanks for your time. I'll go hunting there.
[03:40] <AstralJava> Btw. I've been meaning to look this way more lately, I started a new job last Dec. and I'm involved with ltsp heavily now. Edubuntu seems very interesting, so I might show my nose around here more often in the future. So pleased to meet you, Oliwer. :)
[03:40] <willvdl> ogra, seems I'm getting edubuntu-users list problems as well
[03:41] <ogra> i havent filed an rt ticket yet, but was told to do so
[03:41] <ogra> highvoltage, do you know any specific mirrors for edubuntu apart from the ones we use anyway in ubuntu ? Znarl wants to update the mirror list on www.ubuntu.com
[03:42] <ogra> i have no idea if we use any additional ones
[04:16] <bddebian> Heya
[04:32] <Slayer84> Ive looked at edubuntu for thinclients. But i have som(proberly stupid) questions.
[04:34] <Slayer84> When ive installed edubuntu i add users(one pr client) dont i have to set some quote, so the users dont use all the space on the disk?
[04:36] <Slayer84> And what if i want tp let the users share files with each other? Would a nfs drive be the best solution?
[04:41] <Slayer84> Hmm where thay THAT stupid:-)
[04:43] <ogra> Slayer84, the users are logged in on the server, not on the client ....
[04:43] <ogra> so they can share files locally
[04:44] <ogra> if you fear your users could use up to much diskspace you can indeed set quotas ...
[04:45] <Slayer84> Ahh just a shared folder!
[04:47] <Slayer84> I told you that the questions proberly where stupid:-)
[04:47] <Slayer84> Anyway to add a shotcut to the shared folder, when adding the user account
[04:47] <Slayer84> ?
[04:49] <willvdl> presumably a soft link? ln -s ?
[04:51] <Slayer84> hmm but could that be done at the same time as the "adduser" command?
[04:52] <ogra> just write a script ...
[04:52] <ogra> ltsp-adduser.sh
[04:53] <ogra> #!/bin/bash
[04:53] <ogra> adduser $1
[04:53] <ogra> ln -s yourfolder /home/$1/Desktop/
[04:53] <ogra> something like that
[04:54] <Slayer84> Nice Thank you very much!
[04:55] <willvdl> ogra, presumably a group setting on the shared folder will help? or is that already there?
[04:55] <Slayer84> It will be there
[04:55] <ogra> willvdl, yes
[05:30] <highvoltage> ogra: not that I know of. I didn't even know an Edubuntu specific mirror was possible.
[05:44] <juliux> hi highvoltage how are you?
[05:46] <highvoltage> good juliux!
[05:46] <highvoltage> and you?
[05:46] <juliux> highvoltage, good to hear
[05:46] <highvoltage> juliux: I saw you say something earlier and thought I just have to ask you about it when I catch you again
[05:46] <highvoltage> but somehow I can't remember what it was
[05:46] <highvoltage> </long day>
[05:47] <juliux> highvoltage, i am fine, but i have to learn a lot of things for my examens
[05:47] <highvoltage> exams for?
[05:48] <juliux> yes
[05:48] <juliux> university
[05:48] <juliux> i have 4 this time
[05:48] <highvoltage> ouch
[05:48] <highvoltage> I mean, what are you studying? Computer Science?
[05:48] <juliux> i switched to information managment
[05:48] <highvoltage> ah ok
[05:49] <juliux> informatics was not the right thing for me
[05:49] <highvoltage> I'm not even sure what the difference is
[05:49] <juliux> information managment is a mix
[05:50] <juliux> i have now business studies, economics and informatics
[06:55] <littlepaul> hi
[06:55] <littlepaul> I have a question just to check the concept. (I leave out the use of lts.conf)
[06:55] <littlepaul> I changed to the chroot via chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 and in the chroot environment I called
[06:55] <littlepaul> dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg and changed the keyboard layout from de to gr or us.
[06:55] <littlepaul> The thinclient boots with the choosen layout.
[06:55] <littlepaul> Now my problem: I remain in the chroot environment and I edit the xorg.conf and change form us or gr back to de and save the file. After rebooting the thinclient the keyboard layout remains as configured with dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg. So changing back only works with dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg and not via editing the xorg.conf directly. To be sur I even restarted booth (server and thinclient)
[06:55] <littlepaul> As said it is just as proofe of concept. I know that I could use the lts.conf.
[06:56] <ogra> which would be the right way to do it
[06:57] <ogra> its intresting that this works for you ... it actually shouldnt since the xorg config gets overwritten on every boot
[06:57] <littlepaul> ogra it realy worked
[06:58] <littlepaul> to be sure I deleted the xorg.conf and the client could'nt build a connection to X via ssh
[06:58] <ogra> oh, wait, debconf will keep the values you choose ... so it generates the xorg.conf with these values ...
[07:00] <littlepaul> so it works as designed from your view and no change needed?
[07:01] <littlepaul> change = bug fix :)
[07:02] <ogra> well, we could make use of it, i never thought about abusing the debconf db as lts.conf replacement
[07:04] <juliux> with lts.conf it is a little bit easier to change the settings
[07:05] <ogra> well, i'm just working on python-ltsp, an easy to use python module to change the settings soon you shouldnt need to touch anything like lts.conf anymore
[07:06] <littlepaul> ogra, thx for your answer
[07:06] <juliux> ogra, that is realy cool
[07:06] <ogra> you're welcome
[09:29] <humbolto> does edubuntu use the same repos as ubuntu/kubuntu/xubuntu use?
[09:30] <LaserJock> yes
[09:45] <humbolto> does the edubuntu installer setup all of LTSP for you or do I have to hack some commands to make it work, like I would have, when installing it on ubuntu?
[09:49] <LaserJock> it should pretty much just work
[09:52] <ogra> humbolto, if you have tw etwork cards in the server during install everything will just work
[09:52] <ogra> *two network cards
[09:52] <humbolto> why two?
[09:53] <humbolto> one for inet?
[09:53] <humbolto> or for normal lan?
[09:53] <humbolto> and the other for thin client net
[09:54] <humbolto> if I would install ubuntu and then edubuntu-server, would LTSP still be setup without any user interaction?
[09:54] <ogra> nope
[09:55] <ogra> you would miss the things the installer does
[09:55] <humbolto> and what if I don't have two network cards?
[09:55] <ogra> whioch is actually only the automatic setup of /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf beyond the usually ltsp-build-client
[09:56] <humbolto> the real question is, does it make any sense to download the edubuntu installer cds if I already have the ubuntu ones and just want to install one single server?
[09:56] <ogra> then just follow the https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPQuickInstall guide
[09:57] <ogra> you dont need the edubuntu-server package for ltsp ;)
[09:57] <humbolto> ogra: ok, the installer sets up the dhcp and runs ltsp-build-client, while installing the meta package would not do that?
[09:58] <ogra> right
[09:58] <humbolto> ogra: how to generate thin client boot disks and roms?
[09:58] <ogra> the edubuntu-server metapackage depends on more than ltsp
[09:58] <humbolto> do not have pxe cards
[09:59] <ogra> either get PXE capable cards or go to rom-o-matic.net
[09:59] <humbolto> ogra: what kind of image do I need?
[09:59] <ogra> the etherboot images from there should just work
[09:59] <ogra> the right one for your card ...
[09:59] <humbolto> I tried with the once I was using with ltsp4.2 and they did not really work
[09:59] <ogra> there is a howto on the page
[10:00] <ogra> the ones you used with ltsp 4.2 should work, at least with edgy
[10:00] <humbolto> I have installed ltsp 4 several times, but ran into trouble with the edgy/etch version
[10:00] <humbolto> hmmm
[10:00] <humbolto> kernel booted but stopped at one time
[10:01] <humbolto> the message was shown to short to get it and pause key did not work
[10:02] <ogra> hmm, you should not see any bootmessages, rater the bootsplash
[10:03] <humbolto> had the boot messages, but the thing rebooted itself to quickly after kernel boot stopped with an error
[10:03] <ogra> weird
[10:03] <humbolto> don't even know it it was an error
[10:03] <humbolto> yes
[10:04] <humbolto> anyhow, if I use the meta package, will tftp and nfs still be setup for me or do I have to configure them myself?
[10:04] <ogra> thats something the ltsp-server-standalone package does for you
[10:04] <humbolto> great!
[10:04] <ogra> its realy as easy as the QuickIstall guide describes
[10:04] <humbolto> super cool!
[10:04] <humbolto> are you an edubuntu dev?
[10:05] <ogra> yp
[10:05] <ogra> *yep
[10:05] <humbolto> then thanks a lot, you guys rock!!!!!
[10:05] <LaserJock> humbolto: he's *the* Edubuntu dev
[10:05] <ogra> thanks :)
[10:05] <humbolto> I go down on my knees!
[10:05] <humbolto> And kiss your feet!
[10:06] <ogra> nah :)
[10:07] <humbolto> Great job.
[10:07] <humbolto> So the LTSP stuff in edubuntu is all your job?
[10:07] <ogra> much of it, yes
[10:07] <LaserJock> humbolto: we also have one of the LTSP devs that helps quite a bit
[10:08] <humbolto> Anyhow, I read about what is planned for feisty and I have to state once again, *buntu is doing the job right! User/Task use case centered all over.
[10:08] <humbolto> And the way the dev is managed by launchpad is just great!
[10:09] <humbolto> Super transparent and open even for the most unexperienced user to contribute at least some use cases so the devs know how people want it to work.
[10:09] <humbolto> great job, once again! great job!
[10:09] <ogra> :)
[10:10] <humbolto> now finally debian in a remote sense has got in contact with the user base
[10:11] <ogra> debian itself starts changing as well ...
[10:11] <ogra> (at least it claims to)
[10:11] <humbolto> hope so
[10:11] <humbolto> hope one day, they have something like launchpad
[10:12] <humbolto> launchpad is proprietary, right?
[10:12] <humbolto> could be great to coordinate the flow between debian and ubuntu
[10:13] <humbolto> but if it is proprietary debian wont accept it
[10:14] <ogra> well, many debian devs use it ...
[10:14] <ogra> others dont like it ... its debian ...
[10:15] <ogra> they use bzr (the version control system behind launchpad) a lot in debian though
[10:15] <ogra> even the ones that dislike LP
[10:17] <humbolto> one more question, which login manager is used in edubuntu
[10:19] <LaserJock> it's called ldm
[10:19] <humbolto> and since the whole thing is tunneled through ssh, I don't need to turn on xdmcp in my desktop manager, right?
[10:19] <LaserJock> nope
[10:19] <LaserJock> no xdmcp
[10:19] <humbolto> but ldm does not seem to be installed it I try to install ltsp-standalone-server.
[10:20] <humbolto> I see sdm however
[10:20] <ogra> ldm gets installed in the client environment by ltsp-build-client
[10:20] <ogra> no need for it on the server
[10:20] <humbolto> I get it
[10:20] <ogra> the server needs openssh-server installed
[10:21] <ogra> which is a dependency of ltsp-server-standalone
[10:21] <humbolto> isn't running ssh on the thin client a heavy task for an 166 mhz pentium mmx (clients I am using)?
[10:22] <ogra> well, its taking a little bit more cpu power than xdmcp ... but thats not much ... 166 should work
[10:24] <ogra> in feisty ssh will get the opportunity to switch all encryption off ... so that will be the same as xdmcp but at least with the key handshake of ssh
[10:24] <ogra> (indeed we dont recommend that, but for really low level clients that will be of some help)
[10:25] <humbolto> so 166 mmx should be fine
[10:25] <humbolto> unless people want to watch video?
[10:25] <ogra> i tested with 200 and it was fine, so i would expect 166 to work as well
[10:25] <ogra> right, video is a killer ...
[10:25] <ogra> but mainly for your network
[10:26] <humbolto> it is just 3 clients in my env
[10:26] <humbolto> but they want video
[10:26] <humbolto> or at least if they get it, they will love me
[10:27] <humbolto> so should I turn off the ssh thing and turn on xdmcp instead?
[10:27] <humbolto> how can I do that?
[10:27] <ogra> if you do that you will loose support for usb drives etc
[10:28] <humbolto> ltspfs depends on sdm?
[10:28] <ogra> but you can do it by adding SCREEN_07=startx to an lts.conf file in the client environment
[10:28] <ogra> nope, it doesnt
[10:28] <ogra> ltspfs depends on fuse
[10:29] <humbolto> but ltspfs used to work with xdmcp also in ltsp 4.2
[10:29] <ogra> right, but through a different communication channel
[10:29] <ogra> newer versions of ltspfs use an ssh tunnel for that
[10:29] <humbolto> can't I alter this channel?
[10:30] <humbolto> was ssh used in dapper also?
[10:30] <ogra> sbalneav was considering to implement support for xdmcp again but the ssh switch made him reconsider i think
[10:30] <ogra> ssh was used since ubuntu ltsp exists
[10:31] <humbolto> ssh switch?
[10:31] <ogra> ltspfs wasnt used before edgy
 in feisty ssh will get the opportunity to switch all encryption off ... so that will be the same as xdmcp but at least with the key handshake of ssh
[10:31] <humbolto> I know, but in ltsp 4.2 it was available
[10:32] <humbolto> I certainly could do that by hand in edgy either. what file do I need to tweak?
[10:32] <ogra> yes, with lbus
[10:32] <ogra> all of them
[10:33] <ogra> the way ltspfs is implemented in ltsp5 is very deeply integrated into ssh and udev ... you would need to hack nearly every script from the ltspfs package
[10:33] <humbolto> anyhow, still the best choice. so they have to wait for video until feisty is out.
[10:33] <ogra> no
[10:33] <humbolto> ?
[10:33] <ogra> you could for example run an ssh server on the client
[10:33] <ogra> and install a video player locally
[10:34] <humbolto> ?
[10:34] <ogra> mount the users homedir via nfs and set up ldap ...
[10:34] <humbolto> what do I need the ssh server for?
[10:35] <humbolto> ah, to start the player
[10:35] <ogra> then you can add desktop launchers that do: ssh $USER@<thin-client-ip> totem /home/$USER/video.ogg
[10:35] <ogra> the server needs to be set up for passwordless login and every user needs a ssh key
[10:35] <humbolto> how to get a firefox video plugin to work?
[10:35] <ogra> and indeed that wont work on low level clients
[10:36] <ogra> they need the power to run a videoplayer
[10:36] <humbolto> certainly not, just came to my attention too
[10:36] <ogra> enough ram at least
[10:36] <humbolto> I'll tell them, it will work in march, was it march? when will feisty be released?
[10:37] <LaserJock> April
[10:37] <ogra> april
[10:37] <ogra> but i cant guarantee it will be in feisty
[10:38] <humbolto> so there is not just one ssh connection used to tunnel all traffic, but several. one for x, one for ltspfs, ...
[10:38] <ogra> time is to short, some specs will be dropped
[10:38] <ogra> nope
[10:38] <ogra> its always the same ssh conn
[10:38] <humbolto> so why is it not possible to just make this one ssh connection run without encryption?
[10:39] <ogra> you need the username ...
[10:39] <humbolto> so?
[10:39] <ogra> and the user needs to connect from the client ... xdmcp does the login on the servers gdm
[10:40] <ogra> you dont have the user data available on the client ...
[10:40] <ogra> you dont have a way to tell the client when to connect
[10:40] <humbolto> I am refering to just turning off ecryption
[10:40] <ogra> oh, right
[10:41] <ogra> its not possible yet because thats an abuse of ssh in the view of upstream
[10:42] <humbolto> but if it is just one connection I could add the param?
[10:42] <humbolto> ah, turning off enc all together is not in ssh yet?
[10:42] <ogra> you will have to tweak the server config ....
[10:42] <ogra> right
[10:42] <ogra> the patch exists since some time
[10:42] <humbolto> but I could use blowfish at least?
[10:43] <humbolto> that should be the fastest enc, right?
[10:43] <ogra> but turning off encryption in a secure shell is somewhat silly in upstreams view
[10:43] <ogra> thats what we use
[10:43] <humbolto> well, they are not completely wrong with that. but it can make sense still.
[10:43] <ogra> blowfish-cbc,aes128-cbc,3des-cbc
[10:44] <ogra> in that order
[10:44] <humbolto> fastest -> slowest
[10:44] <ogra> right
[10:44] <humbolto> what is the default and where would I have to add the param?
[10:45] <ogra> the default is the first one the server accepts
[10:45] <ogra> which is blowfish in our case
[10:45] <ogra> f the feature is in ssh you will be able to add "none" to the above list
[10:46] <ogra> and if the server has switched encryption off it will connect without encryption
[10:47] <ogra> anyway, i need to go now ... bbl
[10:48] <humbolto> thanks for all the info!
[10:48] <humbolto> Have the best of all days or nights, depends on where you are located!
[10:48] <humbolto> And again, you guys are great!
[11:13] <peterlyberth> Hi What kind of hardware would you recommend for the server, in a five client setup?
[11:18] <LaserJock> well, you should have about 150MB / client
[11:18] <LaserJock> plust a bit for the base system
[11:19] <LaserJock> 2 NICs seems helpful
[11:19] <LaserJock> and at least 500MHz processor I should think
[11:19] <LaserJock> but I'm not really an expert
[11:20] <peterlyberth> Would a Intel p4 3 Ghz, 2gig ram and two 80 gig disks in a raid config, be in the rightdirction?
[11:22] <LaserJock> certainly for 5 clients
[11:22] <LaserJock> the hard drives are a tad small if you want to store a lot of stuff
[11:24] <peterlyberth> i dont think they need more. Its a experiment setup for a daycare center, ive never done it before
[11:24] <LaserJock> ah
[11:24] <peterlyberth> But if they save some money on license then im happy
[11:25] <peterlyberth> More stuff for the kids then
[11:25] <peterlyberth> They got a couple of old computers, so i thought edubuntu would be perfect
[11:27] <peterlyberth> in a thin client setup
[11:27] <LaserJock> yeah, sounds cool