[07:54] <Rinchen> @schedule denver
[07:54] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Denver: 20 Jan 08:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 05:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 13:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 15:00: Xubuntu
[07:54] <Rinchen> hmpf.
[07:54] <Rinchen> not in sync with fridge
[08:36] <sid> @schedule New_York
[08:36] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 20 Jan 10:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 07:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 15:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 15:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 17:00: Xubuntu
[09:50] <Reichstag> $^ expression searchs for empty lines, \n only for line breaks in the same paragraph (Shift+Enter), but how to find paragraph breaks?
[09:55] <stgraber> @schedule Zurich
[09:55] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 20 Jan 16:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 21:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 23:00: Xubuntu
[03:54] <Ma1kel> 6mins
[03:57] <somerville32> Hello Boys and Girls
[03:58] <vinze> Started yet?
[03:58] <somerville32> We'll be starting any minute now :)
[03:59] <vinze> K great
[03:59] <lotusleaf> vinze: KDE is great ;P
[04:00] <vinze> Yuk no :P
[04:02] <fijam> join #xubuntu
[04:06] <somerville32> Alrighty.
[04:06] <somerville32> I guess can start now by introducing ourselves.
[04:07] <vinze> OK
[04:08] <gpocentek> hello
[04:08] <somerville32> Hi
[04:08] <gpocentek>  /me is g. pocentek :)
[04:08] <vinze> Surprise :D
[04:09] <gpocentek> somerville32: would you agree to lead this meeting?
[04:09] <somerville32> gpocentek, Sure. :)
[04:09] <gpocentek> thanks
[04:10] <somerville32> The agenda for this meeting is available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[04:10] <vinze> So we're with three?
[04:10] <somerville32> We'll work through the items listed, discuss, make notes, and all that good stuff
[04:10] <Jmak> Jmak: ok
[04:11] <somerville32> We'll start from the bottom this time since we started at the top last time
[04:11] <vinze> Keeping it fair ;)
[04:11] <somerville32> Team Building - How can we help contributors to the Xubuntu project become Ubuntu members, devs, and core-devs? How can we build community? Prod ubuntu-qa/ubuntu-bugs and ubuntu-motu to host some classroom lectures to help educate individuals so that they can get involved with bug triage and packaging for Ubuntu/Xubuntu? Maybe team more senior contributors with people interested in getting involved (ie. mentorship)? Organize so
[04:11] <somerville32> me sort of Xubuntu hug day? Brainstorm.
[04:11] <vinze> Hug day.. That would be nice :P
[04:11] <gpocentek> do we really need hug days?
[04:12] <gpocentek> for Xubuntu that is
[04:12] <gpocentek> there's not so many bugs open
[04:12] <somerville32> gpocentek, I think we should tie in with the normal bug days
[04:12] <somerville32> Maybe encourage Xubuntu users to take part
[04:12] <gpocentek> somerville32: agreed
[04:12] <vinze> Me too
[04:13] <somerville32> There are lots of Xubuntu users who enjoy giving back to the project
[04:13] <somerville32> I think making them aware of these opportunities would be a Good Thing.
[04:14] <vinze> And how are we going to do that?
[04:14] <vinze> I guess at least a message to the mailinglist
[04:14] <vinze> Or perhaps that's already enough
[04:14] <gpocentek> adding an item to the bug days wiki page/announces should not be too hard
[04:15] <Ma1kel> or on the ubuntu forums?
[04:15] <vinze> That too perhaps
[04:15] <vinze> But I think most people willing to contribute will already be on xubuntu-devel don't you think so?
[04:15] <somerville32> Furthermore, when you've got a whole bunch of people at these events you already know, I think it would make it more enjoyable and easier to get involved.
[04:15] <somerville32> So it would be good for us to "make a presence".
[04:15] <Ma1kel> vinze, there are more ways to contribute
[04:16] <vinze> Ma1kel: yeah, but you can sign up for xubuntu-devel for all those things can't you?
[04:16] <vinze> But of course, posting a message to the forums is not problem at all :D
[04:16] <Ma1kel> true but there are people that dont know that the it exists
[04:16] <Ma1kel> -the
[04:17] <vinze> Also people that are looking to contribute?
[04:17] <somerville32> ie. Johny and Timmy, both Xubuntu users who like to contribute to bug hug days, encourage there fellow Xubuntu user Jill to come help out. Jill agrees because she feels comfortable knowing that she'll have people she knows there to help her get started and to chat to at the same time.
[04:17] <somerville32> Malkel: True.
[04:18] <somerville32> So, how do we promote this to Xubuntu users without seeming like we're doing our own thing?
[04:19] <vinze> Doing our own thing? You mean too complicated or something
[04:19] <vinze> *?
[04:19] <Ma1kel> Hmmm.
[04:19] <somerville32> Well, we want to tie in with existing Ubuntu infrastructure and teams
[04:19] <somerville32> We don't want to waste efforts re-inventing the wheel
[04:20] <vinze> So we should make it accessible to Xubuntu users
[04:20] <somerville32> Right
[04:20] <Ma1kel> What would you like the existing infrastructure to do? Give a list.
[04:20] <somerville32> But the question is "How do we do it most effectively?"
[04:21] <vinze> Well, I have no experience with this so I have no idea :(
[04:22] <somerville32> I think that we could use the forums, wiki, website, and the irc channel
[04:22] <Ma1kel> Start an Xubuntu forum?
[04:22] <vinze> I think of those the wiki and website are most important
[04:22] <somerville32> Malkel: I don't think that is required.
[04:22] <vinze> Me neither
[04:22] <somerville32> Malkel: The main Ubuntu forums serve us rather nicely.
[04:23] <somerville32> I think we need to spark the "by mouth" advertising.
[04:23] <somerville32> We ourselves need to get excited by contributing to Xubuntu
[04:23] <vinze> I think that would be best
[04:23] <vinze> But I have no idea how
[04:24] <somerville32> By getting excited ourselves, of course :)
[04:24] <Ma1kel> Some contests?
[04:24] <vinze> Yeah I get that :P
[04:24] <somerville32> If people see how we're contributing and that we're excited
[04:24] <Ma1kel> For artwork or something?
[04:24] <vinze> But how to get involved
[04:24] <TheSheep> start talking about it on channels -- saying what bugs you triage, asking about details
[04:24] <vinze> But if you have no experience programming in anything higher than PHP?
[04:25] <somerville32> vinze: You don't need to know how to program to get involved.
[04:25] <TheSheep> it will also teach users some rules on taking care of bugs
[04:25] <Ma1kel> Artwork and translation, spreading the word?
[04:25] <somerville32> Right
[04:25] <somerville32> There are TONS of stuff listed on http://xubuntu.org/devel
[04:25] <TheSheep> assisting with reporting bugs is important too
[04:25] <somerville32> Yup
[04:26] <somerville32> 1. Get excited about contributing Xubuntu
[04:26] <TheSheep> like, you spent some time with the user to see what's wrong, and in the end yuo say "ok, now report this bug" :)
[04:26] <vinze> Translation is also something: isn't that more upstream work? I've been translating Xfce but not in Launchpad
[04:26] <somerville32> 2. Start talking about how we contribute to Xubuntu and how other people can too
[04:27] <Ma1kel> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XubuntuArtwork ?
[04:27] <somerville32> Malkel, vinze: In your opinions, how can we make it easier for people to get involved?
[04:27] <somerville32> Ma1kel, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork <-- Xubuntu artwork page.
[04:28] <somerville32> gpocentek, Any insight?
[04:28] <Ma1kel> Start own forum, announce things and contests
[04:28] <vinze> There's an unofficial Xubuntu forum that's not very popular
[04:29] <Ma1kel> link to it from main site and make it offical?
[04:29] <TheSheep> an empty forum is hardly encouraging
[04:29] <Ma1kel> a full forum is
[04:29] <vinze> But linking to it won't suddenly make it popular
[04:30] <somerville32> Whats wrong with the current Ubuntu forums?
[04:30] <Ma1kel> it is too much ofcused on Ubuntu
[04:31] <somerville32> Ma1kel, There are tons of Xubuntu users on the Ubuntu forums though
[04:31] <Ma1kel> yes
[04:31] <gpocentek> (phonecall, sorry)
[04:31] <vinze> Well, shall we just continue on "Team Building"?
[04:31] <somerville32> I'd like to report that the new xubuntu-users mailing list is a huge success.
[04:32] <vinze> Indeed
[04:32] <vinze> And let's hope it'll be even more so when Feisty is released
[04:33] <somerville32> Since it's conception the other week, we've had 81 individuals subscribe
[04:33] <vinze> How many did we have for xubuntu-devel?
[04:34] <vinze> Too bad
[04:35] <somerville32> So
[04:35] <vinze> Conclusion: we should do more mouth-to-mouthing or whatever-it's-called
[04:35] <somerville32> As to getting people involved, I'll see about poking ubuntu-qa and ubuntu-motu to hold some classroom lectures
[04:35] <vinze> Great
[04:35] <somerville32> and then I'll announce it on the mailing list
[04:35] <somerville32> Then it'll be up to all of us to spread the word to our fellow Xubuntu users
[04:36] <vinze> Perhaps we should make clearer exactly *what* is high priority at the moment
[04:36] <somerville32> vinze: High priority out of what?
[04:37] <vinze> Of jobs to be done of Xubuntu
[04:37] <TheSheep> perhaps we should decide what is there to do first :)
[04:37] <somerville32> hehe
[04:37] <vinze> That's what I mean ;)
[04:38] <somerville32> Well, http://xubuntu.org/devel has a rather comprehensive list
[04:38] <somerville32> And they're all important
[04:38] <vinze> But all of "general things to do"
[04:38] <somerville32> Well, one thing that comes to mind is Documentation
[04:38] <vinze> Perhaps if we focus on a specific thing we can get more things done?
[04:38] <vinze> For example
[04:38] <somerville32> Documentation needs a lot of work
[04:39] <vinze> Then we could say "is someone willing to write some documentation on how this or that app works"?
[04:39] <somerville32> Interesting idea
[04:39] <vinze> I think that produce more
[04:40] <somerville32> Well, we can't waste too much time holding people's hands either. Sometimes people need to take initiative to ask.
[04:40] <somerville32> However, I think making up a nice todo list for the different teams would be a Good Idea.
[04:40] <vinze> Yeah I think so too
[04:41] <somerville32> We can also see about getting some of the more senior contributors to help out the ones showing interest
[04:41] <vinze> But what my problem with documentation is is that you can't just do some documentation and send it somewhere, you have to makes patches or whatnot
[04:41] <somerville32> vinze: Making patches is easy though :)
[04:42] <vinze> Well, perhaps a wiki page or something on how to?
[04:42] <vinze> Because I don't know how, even if it is very easy
[04:43] <somerville32> There already is a wiki page.
[04:43] <vinze> OK, where?
[04:44] <somerville32> Maybe we can work on linking some of those documents from the Xubuntu wiki pages
[04:44] <vinze> Yeah and on xubuntu.org/devel
[04:44] <vinze> To those page
[04:44] <vinze> *pages
[04:44] <somerville32> Good idea
[04:45] <somerville32> Any other points for Team Building?
[04:45] <vinze> Nope
[04:46] <vinze> Oh wait, could you tell me the wiki page, then I'll bookmark it :D
[04:46] <vinze> And perhaps I can start linking after I finish my essays ;)
[04:47] <somerville32> ok
[04:47] <somerville32> one sec
[04:48] <somerville32> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/GettingStarted
[04:48] <vinze> K thanks
[04:49] <somerville32> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contribute
[04:49] <somerville32> So I guess we can move onto the next topic for today
[04:49] <somerville32> Artwork
[04:50] <somerville32> Jmak, :)
[04:50] <vinze> Yeah
[04:50] <vinze> *Very controversial* ;)
[04:50] <somerville32> Well, certainly opinionated for sure
[04:51] <Jmak> I am here
[04:52] <somerville32> Jmak: Could you give us an update on the artwork? :)
[04:52] <TheSheep> Jmak: I wanted to tell you about the icon theme cache...
[04:52] <Jmak> We need to tackle the icons
[04:52] <Jmak> Ok
[04:53] <Jmak> TheSheep: Whats that
[04:53] <TheSheep> Jmak: basically, if you want to play with icons in some theme, remove the icon-theme.cache file from it first, or you won't see the changes
[04:53] <TheSheep> Jmak: I'm not sure how you regenerate that cache though
[04:54] <TheSheep> Jmak: it was something I stumbled upon when trying to fix the sound control icon in breezy
[04:54] <Jmak> Thanks for the tip
[04:55] <fijam> If I could add something to the documentation discussion... just a quick remark, may I?
[04:55] <vinze> Always :D
[04:55] <somerville32> Sure :)
[04:56] <fijam> I think that special attention should be focused on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Projects
[04:56] <Jmak> But regarding the icons Jari told me that there will be major changes in feisty soon, so lets wait till those changes will materialize
[04:56] <fijam> as we don't want xubuntu to fall behind, do we?
[04:56] <vinze> fijam: Indeed
[04:57] <vinze> Jmak: Sure
[04:57] <Ma1kel> "The DocumentationTeam is currently working on developing new and improving existing documentation for the release of Ubuntu 6.10 (EdgyEft) in October 2006."
[04:57] <somerville32> fijam, Thats the only documentation to focus on right now - the Desktop Guide and the wiki.
[04:57] <somerville32> And we're already way way way behind
[04:57] <somerville32> We need more contributors
[04:57] <vinze> I'll see if I can do some catching up
[04:58] <vinze> But I also have another project ;)
[04:58] <somerville32> There is a specification on the wiki
[04:58] <fijam> ok
[04:59] <Jmak> Is evrybody happy with the tango icon theme?
[04:59] <somerville32> fijam, vinze: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Feisty/DesktopGuide-feisty
[04:59] <somerville32> Jmak: At this time, I enjoy the tango theme, yes.
[04:59] <TheSheep> Jmak: I'm happy with it :)
[04:59] <vinze> For now yes
[05:00] <Jmak> In my view it is pretty dull
[05:01] <vinze> But complete
[05:01] <TheSheep> I prefer the term 'functional' :)
[05:01] <somerville32> I think it is complete and professional looking
[05:01] <vinze> Functional, whatever you wish :D
[05:01] <TheSheep> vinze: I was thinking about the 'dull'
[05:02] <vinze> Ah, right...
[05:02] <somerville32> Jmak: Is anyone else contributing to the artwork besides yourself?
[05:02] <vinze> "Dull" and "functional" are about equal to me ;)
[05:02] <TheSheep> Jmak: do you have a "big picture" for the theme?
[05:02] <Jmak> What theme, the icon theme?
[05:03] <TheSheep> Jmak: no, the whole theme of xubuntu
[05:03] <TheSheep> Jmak: what direction to go?
[05:03] <TheSheep> Jmak: should it look cheap or expensive, simple or comlex, cold or warm, etc.
[05:03] <Ma1kel> more intresting looking, the normal theme is too dull, people like to change the theme immetdialy
[05:03] <TheSheep> Ma1kel: that's good
[05:04] <vinze> Ma1kel: The problem with that is that you'll get a theme that annoys some people
[05:04] <Ma1kel> true
[05:04] <vinze> That's the advantage of Clearlooks: it does not annoy, even if it is dull
[05:04] <vinze> Or Tango or whatever
[05:04] <somerville32> Personally, I prefer a professional appeal for default
[05:04] <Ma1kel> Me too.
[05:04] <vinze> Like Clearlooks?
[05:04] <somerville32> Then people can make all the crazy customizations they want
[05:05] <somerville32> But first impressions are important
[05:05] <vinze> Yeah indeed
[05:05] <TheSheep> I think that a defult theme has 2 functions:  be usable for when you don't have time to customize it, and look good for screenshots and marketing
[05:05] <Jmak> My idea was to continue the glossy feel
[05:05] <vinze> So we want to make a "decent" impression
[05:05] <somerville32> And so we need to have a theme that appeals to the widest variety of users
[05:05] <vinze> I liked the glossy feel
[05:05] <Ma1kel> glossy feels are cool
[05:05] <TheSheep> even cold
[05:05] <TheSheep> nothing against glossy, of course
[05:06] <somerville32> The glossy direction is good but we need to make sure not to over do it
[05:06] <somerville32> We need to be tactful
[05:06] <TheSheep> Jmak: sharp or soft?
[05:06] <Jmak> I prefer simple
[05:07] <Jmak> As opposed to the more flashy fedora artworks
[05:07] <Ma1kel> maybe get some opinions from the forums? Get some artwork on the forums and ask people what they think about it? Could help getting people contribute.
[05:07] <vinze> Ma1kel: Good idewa
[05:07] <vinze> *idea
[05:07] <somerville32> We can't just vote on small bits and pieces though
[05:07] <somerville32> We need to see the overall picture
[05:07] <TheSheep> I think that once working, there should be no opinions.
[05:08] <vinze> Perhaps first produce something, then allow comments?
[05:08] <TheSheep> 1. collect opinions, get the idea, 2. work, ignore feedback on irrelevant details, 3. present the (almost) finished product, repeat
[05:08] <vinze> Agreed
[05:08] <TheSheep> I was looking at the "start button" rant
[05:09] <TheSheep> it's totally meaningless
[05:09] <vinze> *hint*
[05:09] <Ma1kel> WHERES MY START BUTTON
[05:09] <Jmak> True, but in my view artworks are not like code everyone chips in and at the end we put it together.
[05:09] <somerville32> Jmak: But what about that article you wrote?
[05:09] <somerville32> In it you said that that model doesn't work
[05:09] <TheSheep> Jmak: you're the director, you must not allow everyone to butt in :)
[05:10] <Jmak> I like the button idea because from the usability point of view it make sense
[05:10] <TheSheep> Jmak: stand by your decissions
[05:10] <TheSheep> Jmak: btw, I think the button can be made as a gtk theme thing
[05:11] <Jmak> With that I am not familiar
[05:11] <Jmak> How do you mean gtk?
[05:11] <vinze> So, artwork will just be produced, then accept comments and see what should be improved?
[05:11] <somerville32> Jmak: Maybe you should encourage other people to get involved?
[05:11] <Ma1kel> well, get some comments WHILE working on it, to help you model it
[05:12] <TheSheep> vinze: you cannot tweak this kind of things much -- it's all interconnected and complete
[05:12] <vinze> Ma1kel: But without starting discussions
[05:12] <Jmak> Sure, anyone can do artworks
[05:12] <vinze> TheSheep: What do you mean?
[05:12] <Ma1kel> ^
[05:12] <TheSheep> vinze: it's like telling Da Vinci to redo that smile
[05:12] <somerville32> Jmak, Maybe you could spice up the artwork wiki pages on *how* to get involved?
[05:12] <vinze> AH, like that
[05:13] <Jmak> Ok. I will do that
[05:13] <TheSheep> Jmak: for example, which icons need to be drawn
[05:13] <fijam> that would be useful
[05:14] <Jmak> For instance in the application menu we have at least 6 missing icons, not very professional
[05:14] <TheSheep> Jmak: most of them are in tango, just miss the links
[05:14] <somerville32> Jmak; You should file bugs and attach an icon and someone like gpocentek or myself can upload it.
[05:14] <TheSheep> Jmak: same with other icon themes -- they'd work with xubntu fine, if not the missing links
[05:15] <Jmak> Ok jary told me that there will be changes soon in feisty so I wait with the icons for the time being
[05:16] <TheSheep> Jmak: so, what other things are there to do that can be distributed work?
[05:17] <Jmak> I think no much unless someone wants to redo the entire desktop concept
[05:18] <vinze> So on to the Documentation issue?
[05:18] <TheSheep> Jmak: I made another blue murrina theme, based on the MurrinaHuman2, if you're interested
[05:18] <Jmak> Sure
[05:19] <Jmak> Make a wiki and upload the pieces
[05:19] <somerville32> Btw
[05:19] <somerville32> the Murrina theme engine was uploaded the other week to Universe
[05:20] <Jmak> It sould be the default theme for feisty
[05:20] <Jmak> It comes with a nice configurator that not even gnome has
[05:20] <somerville32> Also, I'd like to see an improvement to the startup splash
[05:20] <vinze> GTK themes are something that can be voted on IMHO
[05:20] <kalikiana> The splash needs text :)
[05:21] <Jmak> You mean the usplash?
[05:21] <kalikiana> yep
[05:21] <somerville32> Not the usplash
[05:21] <somerville32> the login splash
[05:21] <somerville32> After you authenticate
[05:21] <kalikiana> oh
[05:21] <somerville32> It is current the mouse in the wheel
[05:21] <somerville32> Which is cool
[05:21] <somerville32> but it just on a white background
[05:21] <somerville32> Kind of blah
[05:21] <kalikiana> What would you do about it?
[05:21] <vinze> But perhaps it will get too slow...
[05:21] <TheSheep> use the same background as gdm and backdrop
[05:22] <gpocentek> somerville32: it's currently nothing
[05:22] <somerville32> gpocentek, What is currently nothing?
[05:22] <vinze> The splash
[05:22] <Jmak> You are talkin about the logo?
[05:22] <gpocentek> somerville32: there's no splash during Xfce startup
[05:22] <somerville32> gpocentek, Since when?
[05:23] <crimsun> (hi all, apologies for tardiness, was in another meeting)
[05:23] <gpocentek> somerville32: since edgy IIRC
[05:23] <gpocentek> hello crimsun
[05:23] <somerville32> gpocentek, Well, then I must have carry over from Dapper
[05:23] <gpocentek> somerville32: the splash slow down things on lowest machines, that's why we removed it
[05:23] <somerville32> But it is possible to re-enable it?
[05:23] <gpocentek> somerville32: yep, it's configured in your HOME I guess
[05:23] <gpocentek> somerville32: sure
[05:23] <TheSheep> I had a smart splashscreen setup some time ago -- it made a screenshot when logging out, and displayed it as the splash
[05:23] <somerville32> I see a MCS module
[05:24] <vinze> TheSheep: that's cool :D But annoying ;_
[05:24] <TheSheep> vinze: it makes the system seem faster :)
[05:24] <somerville32> Either way, there really isn't a good login splash available. So we should make one available.
[05:24] <gpocentek> the running mouse *is* good
[05:24] <TheSheep> somerville32: balous is pretty good if you put a nice picture in it
[05:24] <vinze> TheSheep: Does it?
[05:25] <somerville32> gpocentek, I like it too
[05:25] <Jmak> I made some animation splash for dapper but jani said we need no splash
[05:25] <vinze> TheSheep: Startup is already almost-instantly for me when I turn Beryl off
[05:25] <somerville32> gpocentek, But I think it can be improved.
[05:25] <TheSheep> vinze: before you grab the mouse, the splash screen will already disappear -- but you have additional several seconds of thinking what to do :)
[05:26] <crimsun> Jmak: I tend to agree with Jani that a splash only serves really to "hide" the slowdown
[05:26] <vinze> TheSheep: But won't the two seconds it takes now become four?
[05:26] <TheSheep> vinze: no idea
[05:27] <vinze> TheSheep: lol :P
[05:27] <somerville32> Well, I'd love to see something done there
[05:27] <somerville32> As for the usplash, I think it looks good except for the text.
[05:28] <Jmak> somerville32: splash just make things more crowded
[05:28] <TheSheep> maybe there is some theme we could use for making art for xubuntu -- sky? water? blue jewels?
[05:29] <somerville32> Black rodents?
[05:30] <Jmak> Listen, splash should be a branding image not a masterpeice. It si only the screen for a few seconds
[05:30] <somerville32> Several minutes for me
[05:30] <somerville32> lol
[05:31] <Jmak> If it is to complex it confuses
[05:31] <somerville32> I think he issue is that the text is too complex. It should be simpler and more tactful
[05:32] <Jmak> What text?
[05:32] <somerville32> "Xubuntu"
[05:32] <somerville32> The logo looks great
[05:32] <vinze> Sorry g2g
[05:32] <Jmak> You mean in the login box
[05:33] <fijam> see you, vinze
[05:33] <vinze> Bye
[05:33] <somerville32> Right now I'm talking about the usplash
[05:33] <Jmak> Ok
[05:34] <somerville32> :)
[05:34] <somerville32> TheSheep: Water, I think
[05:34] <TheSheep> somerville32: waves?
[05:34] <TheSheep> somerville32: drops? like blubuntu?
[05:35] <somerville32> Something tranquil?
[05:36] <Jmak> Glossiness is part of the overall theme, that is how the usplash was conceived
[05:37] <somerville32> Jmak: Right.
[05:37] <somerville32> Glossyness isn't the issue
[05:37] <Jmak> What then?
[05:38] <somerville32> The text is the issue, I don't like how it looks. I think the distaste lies with the thick blue borders.
[05:39] <Jmak> But you have to somehow separate off from the blach background
[05:39] <jenda> ooh, xubuntu meeting... I'm sorry to interrupt with something so mundane, but I haven't got any response from the #xubuntu channels - I'll be printing about 1000 of Xubuntu case badges, and no one can tell me if they look good other than Xubuntu folks :)
[05:39] <jenda> diy.devubuntu.com/xubuntu.png
[05:40] <jenda> (please reply in -marketing not here)
[05:40] <jenda> (and feel free to wait till after the meeting, of course)
[05:40] <somerville32> Jmak: I agree.
[05:40] <somerville32> Jmak: I'd like to see an alternate.
[05:40] <somerville32> Anyhow, lets keep moving
[05:40] <somerville32> We've already been here for awhile
[05:40] <somerville32> and we have more stuff to cover
[05:41] <somerville32> Any last comments?
[05:41] <fijam> What I personanlly dislike about the usplash logo is that blue gradient descending into pitch-black. Maybe it could be made more... distinctive?
[05:42] <Jmak> It is not good. the mouse overlaps the logo, the colors are off and the lines are jagged
[05:43] <somerville32> So it is agreed the proposed usplash needs some more love?
[05:44] <Jmak> What kind of change do you exactly want?
[05:44] <somerville32> Personally, just the text
[05:45] <somerville32> Anyhows
[05:45] <Jmak> That's pretty vague
[05:45] <somerville32> We need to move on
[05:45] <somerville32> Jmak: We can discuss it more later.
[05:45] <somerville32> Documentation - Documentation efforts need to be organized.
[05:45] <somerville32> Is there anybody who would be interested in working on the desktopguide?
[05:45] <Ma1kel> Wiki raids?
[05:45] <somerville32> I wear a lot of hats so I can't devote the love that it needs.
[05:46] <somerville32> Malkel: Not quite. There is a desktop guide that is shipped with Xubuntu - it is outdated and needs to be improved.
[05:46] <somerville32> However, I'm sure we'll pull content from the wiki
[05:46] <fijam> I could do some work on this. I am downloading the svn trunk right now
[05:47] <somerville32> Awesome.
[05:47] <somerville32> Can I put your name down as a volunteer?
[05:47] <somerville32> crimsun, gpocentek: Do you have any insight for the desktop guide and documentation for Xubuntu in general?
[05:48] <somerville32> fijam, I have svn commit access
[05:49] <somerville32> fijam, We'll get together soon and discuss documentation.
[05:49] <fijam> you and Luzius Theoney, already read of it
[05:49] <fijam> ok
[05:49] <somerville32> Awesome.
[05:49] <crimsun> somerville32: not without having read current doc
[05:49] <somerville32> crimsun: You can see it at http://doc.ubuntu.com
[05:49] <somerville32> We can discuss documentation more at the next meeting
[05:49] <somerville32> Any last points?
[05:50] <fijam> I've just scimmed through the styleguide
[05:50] <fijam> ok
[05:50] <gpocentek> somerville32: Xfce has a nice documentation, if it included in the desktop guide, or even linked
[05:50] <somerville32> gpocentek, Good idea.
[05:51] <fijam> However, there is no documentation for the 4.4 branch yet afaik
[05:51] <gpocentek> it was a question actually (s/if/is) ;)
[05:51] <somerville32> hehe
[05:52] <somerville32> gpocentek, I'm sure we could borrow from it
[05:52] <gpocentek> fijam: right
[05:54] <fijam> and this influences a few things, especially the desktop manager, menu icons etc, so we might want to cover these issues on our own, at least the basics
[05:55] <gpocentek> indeed
[05:55] <gpocentek> Thunar doc is good, and is now included in the sources IIRC
[05:56] <somerville32> Alrighty.
[05:56] <somerville32> Any last points?
[05:57] <somerville32> Bug Triage - Whats the most effective way to triage Xubuntu related bugs? What procedures should our bug triage team follow? People to look after certain packages? (CodySomerville)
[05:57] <somerville32> 1. How should we handle small feature requests?
[05:57] <somerville32> ie. feature requests that don't deserve a specification
[05:58] <crimsun> I've not been averse to Wishlist bugs filed against the appropriate source packages using LP
[06:00] <somerville32> So just confirm them and mark them wishlist?
[06:01] <crimsun> that's my general practice
[06:01] <crimsun> if there's consensus that we should be doing otherwise, I'm happy to adhere
[06:01] <somerville32> I think Jani recommends that too
[06:01] <somerville32> and I'm ok with that
[06:01] <somerville32> but I always thought it was a goal to try and close bugs
[06:01] <gpocentek> so am I
[06:02] <somerville32> Alright.
[06:03] <somerville32> Any other points on bug triage?
[06:03] <gpocentek> yep
[06:03] <gpocentek> there's quite a lot of bugs reported against wrong packages or against no package at all
[06:04] <gpocentek> I'd be nice to regularily find these bugs
[06:05] <gpocentek> a simple search on LP using "Xfce" gives a lot of results
[06:06] <somerville32> Good point.
[06:06] <somerville32> gpocentek, Do you have any ideas on how to improve the situation?
[06:07] <gpocentek> if someone can take the time to search those bugs once a week (for instance), it shouldn't take a lot of time and would be really helpful
[06:07] <gpocentek> I'm ready to take care about this
[06:08] <gpocentek> the task would not be a full triaging, simply suscribing the xubuntu-team
[06:08] <somerville32> Should we consider add the xubuntu-team as bug contacts for more packages?
[06:08] <somerville32> *adding
[06:10] <gpocentek> maybe more desktop apps
[06:10] <gpocentek> I'm not even sure that gxine is on our list for instance
[06:11] <crimsun> right, that's motumedia
[06:12] <gpocentek> anything else about bugs?
[06:12] <gpocentek> ok
[06:13] <somerville32> So, last two topics for today
[06:13] <somerville32> #
[06:13] <somerville32> Xubuntu feisty dev-roadmap - Discuss and develop a dev-roadmap for Xubuntu Feisty Fawn + review of previous dev-roadmaps.
[06:13] <somerville32> #
[06:13] <somerville32> Feisty Fawn - The goals for Feisty Fawn include adopting emerging desktop technology. What emerging desktop technology can the Xubuntu distribution adopt?
[06:14] <gpocentek> next week goal: get Xfce 4.4 final in ;)
[06:15] <fijam> It hasn't been released yet, has it?
[06:15] <gpocentek> it should released tomorrow on monday
[06:15] <fijam> good!
[06:15] <gpocentek> s/on/or
[06:15] <somerville32> gpocentek, We do plan to get thunar-volman in, right?
[06:16] <gpocentek> somerville32: yes
[06:16] <somerville32> Enabled by default?
[06:16] <gpocentek> somerville32: I guess :)
[06:16] <vinze> Hey
[06:17] <fijam> welcome back
[06:17] <vinze> Thanks
[06:17] <vinze> What're we discussing?
[06:17] <somerville32> gpocentek, What do you think about adding default gtk shortcuts?
[06:18] <gpocentek> somerville32: what kind of shortcuts?
[06:18] <somerville32> ie. Documents, Videos, Pictures, etc.
[06:18] <somerville32> Stuff like that
[06:18] <somerville32> You see it in the file choicer and Thunar's left bar
[06:18] <somerville32> It might pose translation issues
[06:18] <gpocentek> yep
[06:19] <somerville32> and it would require us to actually have the directories created
[06:19] <somerville32> which would mean we would have to do that in /etc/skel/
[06:19] <somerville32> and I don't think too many distros do that
[06:19] <gpocentek> I don't really like the idea
[06:19] <vinze> What idea?
[06:20] <gpocentek> of modifying dirs/files in the user's HOME
[06:20] <vinze> With what purpose?
[06:20] <somerville32> gpocentek, Is it possible to add more "shortcuts" in the top part of the left bar?
[06:21] <somerville32> ie. Where the filesystem, home, etc. links are
[06:21] <gpocentek> do we really need more links?
[06:21] <gpocentek> (BTW this is an other discussion than feisty goals ;) )
[06:22] <somerville32> We're discussing whats plausible, :P
[06:22] <vinze> gpocentek: Is it "Emerging Desktop Technologies"?
[06:22] <somerville32> And I think that a link to /media might be wise
[06:23] <gpocentek> why not
[06:23] <vinze> If the folders get names other than cdrom0
[06:23] <vinze> Or usbdisk
[06:23] <vinze> And usbdisk-1
[06:23] <gpocentek> vinze: true
[06:24] <vinze> Don't most devices have labels for that?
[06:24] <vinze> But that would be more Thunar-specific I guess
[06:24] <gpocentek> yes
[06:25] <somerville32> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Feisty/Xubuntu-Wishlist <-- It is actually readable.
[06:25] <somerville32> One thing that is mentioned is disabling case-sensitive sort in Thunar. Apparently it is in the Thunar config file but not the gui config tool.
[06:26] <somerville32> Another item is Tracker
[06:26] <fijam> Tracker - the search tool?
[06:26] <somerville32> gpocentek, Have you had a chance to use kalikiana's search tool?
[06:26] <vinze> Tracker sounds cool to me
[06:27] <gpocentek> somerville32: yes
[06:27] <gpocentek> I don't really like the UI
[06:27] <gpocentek> and it's only a frontend to find, and slocate
[06:27] <somerville32> Not only find and slocate
[06:27] <gpocentek> a desktop search tool does more than that
[06:27] <somerville32> It also supports tracker and beagle
[06:28] <gpocentek> if there are installed
[06:28] <vinze> Well if the UI is not that pleasant then it should not be used as front-end for tracker I guess...
[06:28] <gpocentek> is tracker a command line tool (never used it)
[06:28] <gpocentek> ?
[06:28] <somerville32> Yes
[06:28] <gpocentek> ok
[06:29] <gpocentek> it needs to be tested
[06:29] <gpocentek> and packaged...
[06:29] <somerville32> What needs to be packaged?
[06:30] <vinze> Screenshots also show a GUI: http://www.gnome.org/projects/tracker/screenshots.html
[06:30] <fijam> it looks promising
[06:30] <gpocentek> somerville32: tracker
[06:30] <vinze> http://www.gnome.org/projects/tracker/download.html
[06:30] <somerville32> tracker is already packaged
[06:30] <vinze> See my link :D
[06:31] <gpocentek> somerville32: and available in debian or ubuntu ?
[06:31] <somerville32> gpocentek, I heard someone in #u-devel that it was accepted into Feisty
[06:31] <vinze> buntu : should be in Feisty universe soon... ATM experimental debs can be found for i386 arch at
[06:31] <vinze> "deb http://debs.michaelbiebl.de/ edgy main" for edgy
[06:31] <vinze> "deb http://debs.michaelbiebl.de/ dapper main" for dapper
[06:31] <somerville32> apt-cache agrees
[06:31] <fijam> there is a gtk ui tracker-search-tool and QT one (under development)
[06:31] <somerville32> fijam, There are several
[06:31] <somerville32> TheSheep: ping
[06:32] <TheSheep> pong
[06:32] <TheSheep> somerville32: you rang my lord?
[06:32] <gpocentek> hum, tracker depends on gnome libs
[06:32] <TheSheep> gpocentek: I'm working on a xfce one
[06:32] <gpocentek> TheSheep: oh, great
[06:32] <TheSheep> gpocentek: but it's not much more advanced than kalikiana's
[06:33] <vinze> But is it easy to use?
[06:33] <TheSheep> gpocentek: more closely tied to tracker and thunar, though
[06:33] <vinze> And fast?
[06:33] <TheSheep> vinze: I try my best :)
[06:33] <TheSheep> vinze: time (and users) will tell
[06:34] <somerville32> Is it agreed that a file search tool is a goal for Feisty?
[06:34] <vinze> Great
[06:34] <vinze> Yes
[06:34] <gpocentek> somerville32: if we can find a good candidate, yes :)
[06:35] <vinze> And a calculator, is that already included?
[06:35] <TheSheep> vinze: what's wrong with a command-line calculator like bc?
[06:35] <TheSheep> vinze: it's much more useful
[06:35] <vinze> I prefer GUI's
[06:35] <TheSheep> vinze: an icon in the menu would be enough
[06:35] <vinze> Yes I'm one of that kind :D
[06:35] <TheSheep> vinze: you mean you really push the buttons with your mouse???
[06:36] <vinze> Yes :D
[06:36] <vinze> Or typing
[06:36] <vinze> But outside of the terminal
[06:36] <gpocentek> vinze: we have gcalctool
[06:36] <gpocentek> and python :)
[06:37] <somerville32> lol
[06:37] <vinze> Is gcalctool included by default?
[06:37] <gpocentek> vinze: yes
[06:37] <vinze> O ok
[06:37] <vinze> That's cool
[06:37] <somerville32> gpocentek, What about the menu? That seems to be one of the major complains.
[06:37] <somerville32> Any ideas on how we can improve it?
[06:37] <gpocentek> somerville32: upstream is working on something
[06:38] <vinze> Well, I think we should at least keep System and Settings separated
[06:38] <gpocentek> but I have not really looked at this yet
[06:38] <vinze> I read somewhere Gnome would be bundling them
[06:38] <somerville32> gpocentek, Why did we get rid of Thunar, Terminal, and Firefox from the top level?
[06:39] <gpocentek> somerville32: Jani decided it, no idea why
[06:39] <somerville32> I think we should discuss reimplementing it
[06:39] <gpocentek> maybe in a different way
[06:39] <vinze> I'd make Thunar a "Home" icon
[06:39] <gpocentek> icons on the panel for instance
[06:40] <somerville32> TheSheep: Whats the #1 question in #xubuntu?
[06:40] <vinze> But I don't think a Terminal icon is neccessary
[06:40] <vinze> But you'll probably disagree
[06:40] <Jester45> can i ask a question is the #1 asked question
[06:40] <vinze> Jester45: lol
[06:41] <Jester45> not to be smart or anything
[06:41] <somerville32> I personally have have Firefox, Gedit, Thunar, and Terminal as launchers on my bar next to xfce menu
[06:41] <vinze> I have about 20 icons in my top panel :D
[06:41] <somerville32> Maybe we should add those four launchers (except replacing gedit with mousepad)?
[06:41] <gpocentek> mousepad and terminal are geeky utils IMO
[06:41] <vinze> I agree
[06:42] <gpocentek> and geeks can add icons on their panel ;)
[06:42] <vinze> But Firefox and "Home" (better than Thunar IMHO) are fine with me
[06:42] <vinze> geeks like to customize :D
[06:42] <somerville32> lol
[06:42] <somerville32> Abiword then
[06:42] <somerville32> lol
[06:43] <somerville32> And the terminal is there to make it a nice round number of four icons ;] 
[06:43] <vinze> Yeah I think Abiword is a good idea
[06:43] <vinze> I like three
[06:43] <gpocentek> hum, if we starrt with adding desktop apps to the panel, we will end with 30 launchers
[06:43] <Jester45> i dont like Abiword my self but many new to linuxers like it becuase it looks like MSWord
[06:44] <vinze> gpocentek: Well, mainly the most-used apps
[06:44] <vinze> (File-)Browsing and Word Processing
[06:44] <somerville32> gpocentek, I think we can limit it to those. They are the most used desktop applications.
[06:44] <vinze> I like Abiword because it's fast
[06:45] <gpocentek> maybe we should discuss default settings on the ML
[06:45] <gpocentek> or even better, the xubuntu-default-settings package has a bzr branch
[06:45] <vinze> We should make some kind of voting page
[06:46] <gpocentek> feel free to create your own branch to propose your choice
[06:46] <vinze> Didn't LP support polls?
[06:46] <somerville32> gpocentek, Btw, why is that authored by ubuntu-core-dev and not xubuntu-team? :P
[06:46] <gpocentek> somerville32: because it deals with packaging I guess
[06:46] <gpocentek> somerville32: but it's not a problem
[06:47] <gpocentek> we can create a xubuntu-team branch and merge it with the core-dev one
[06:47] <somerville32> True
[06:47] <gpocentek> ok, is there anything else?
[06:48] <somerville32> Well
[06:48] <fijam> I have a question regarding media player for Feisty. Will it be still gxine?
[06:48] <somerville32> I think there are some more goals we can set for Feisty
[06:48] <gpocentek> fijam: I think so
[06:48] <vinze> Will AIGLX also be default for Xubuntu?
[06:48] <vinze> Automatically I mean
[06:48] <vinze> So without Beryl or Compiz
[06:48] <somerville32> gpocentek, What about SMB?
[06:49] <somerville32> Should we consider adding pyNeighborhood to the seeds?
[06:49] <somerville32> Have you even had a chance to try it yet?
[06:49] <gpocentek> somerville32: does it work well?
[06:49] <gpocentek> I've not tested it yet
[06:49] <somerville32> gpocentek, 0.4 is a lot better then 0.3
[06:49] <somerville32> It is actively being developed
[06:49] <somerville32> Upstream said they'd love to help
[06:49] <gpocentek> great
[06:50] <somerville32> It is in Universe currently
[06:50] <gpocentek> yep
[06:51] <somerville32> Give it a try if you can and let me know what you think and I'll file a MIR
[06:51] <Jester45> bye bye fear not as i will be back soon
[06:51] <gpocentek> somerville32: ok, I'll test it
[06:51] <vinze> O damn
[06:51] <vinze> How about this notification daemon for Xfce?
[06:52] <somerville32> Interesting idea
[06:52] <gpocentek> Thunar can use it
[06:52] <gpocentek> for eject/umount notification popups
[06:52] <somerville32> But might it cause a conflict with the gnome notification daemon?
[06:53] <vinze> Well, yes
[06:53] <gpocentek> somerville32: yes, but that's not a problem, xubuntu-desktop can depend on notification-daemon | xfce-n-d
[06:53] <vinze> Quote: Notification-daemon-xfce conflicts with the original notification-daemon
[06:53] <somerville32> gpocentek, perfect.
[06:55] <somerville32> Alrighty
[06:55] <somerville32> gpocentek, Do you want me to package xfce-n-d or will you?
[06:56] <gpocentek> somerville32: go ahead
[06:56] <gpocentek> I'll review it :)
[06:56] <somerville32> lol, ok
[06:56] <somerville32> gpocentek, Did you review my updated patch, btw?
[06:56] <gpocentek> somerville32: not yet
[06:57] <somerville32> As for xfce 4.4
[06:57] <somerville32> Do you plan to do that solo or can I help?
[06:58] <gpocentek> somerville32: feel free to grab some packages, but we'll have to coordinate to not duplicate the work
[06:59] <somerville32> ok
[06:59] <gpocentek> including the goodies it'll be ~30 packages that need to be updated
[06:59] <gpocentek> somerville32: mr_pouit has already updated a bunch of plugins BTW
[06:59] <somerville32> Is the delta between 4.4 RC2 and stable big?
[07:00] <gpocentek> no
[07:00] <somerville32> Anything cool besides the Thunar improvements?
[07:00] <gpocentek> nothing new since RC2
[07:02] <gpocentek> ok, /me is off for diner ;)
[07:02] <vinze> Have fun :D
[07:04] <fijam> I am off to go, too
[07:04] <vinze> Bye
[07:04] <fijam> see you
[07:05] <somerville32> I have to get something to eat too :)
[07:08] <vinze> So is the meeting over?
[07:10] <somerville32> I think that would be safe to say, yes ;] 
[07:10] <gpocentek> vinze: I guess so ;)
[07:10] <vinze> Has the LiveCD issue also been discussed?
[07:11] <somerville32> It wasn't on the agenda
[07:11] <somerville32> so no
[07:11] <vinze> OK :(
[07:11] <vinze> Wasn't it part of the Feisty Roadmap discussion
[07:11] <vinze> *?
[07:12] <somerville32> "Feisty Roadmap Discussion" is rather ambiguous
[07:12] <somerville32> And it is too late in the development cycle to really do anything new
[07:13] <vinze> PL
[07:13] <vinze> *OK
[07:13] <Mithrandir> what live cd issue?
[07:13] <vinze> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Feisty/Xubuntu-Wishlist#head-11feec0677c4557016d6f27c6529b4da3640d654
[07:14] <somerville32> "Some people use the Live CD for more than just testing an installation will work. Maybe an alert when we shut down, to warn the user that any files (if there are files) in the home folder are not saved to disk, and will be lost. -- Mattj2 2006-11-17 14:35:00" ?
[07:14] <Mithrandir> the first, have you pressed f2 (or f3, I can't remember) and selecting your keyboard there?
[07:15] <vinze> Well, the problem is that people have to look for it
[07:15] <Mithrandir> yes, and it'll stay that way.
[07:15] <vinze> But as it's too late now to do something about it
[07:15] <vinze> Perhaps something for Feisty+1
[07:15] <Mithrandir> no, the live cd should not ask questions.
[07:16] <Mithrandir> the second one doesn't have anything to do with xubuntu specifically, it should probably be fixed, it's just a minor thing in casper/gdm.
[07:16] <vinze> Mithrandir: I think in this situation asking a question is reasonable
[07:17] <Mithrandir> vinze: you may think so, but it won't be changed even so.
[07:18] <vinze> I know :D
[07:18] <Mithrandir> (I say this with both my release manager and casper maintainer hat on)
[07:18] <vinze> Casper was what handles the LiveCD?
[07:19] <Mithrandir> it's the initramfs bits which makes the live cd into a live cd and not a regular desktop system, yes.
[07:19] <vinze> Cool
[07:19] <vinze> Btw, :
[07:19] <vinze> "I have used Ubuntu Live CDs before, that ask what sort of keyboard you have, and automatically set Ubuntu up that way. "
[07:19] <vinze> Is that true?
[07:21] <Mithrandir> when we used d-i for the live cd, yes.
[07:21] <Mithrandir> that's breezy and earlier, iirc.
[07:21] <vinze> Ah, right