[01:17] <manchicken> Riddell: The only adept spec left in the C++ realm is the tooltip for the main repo indicator icon.
[01:18] <jjesse> evening
[01:18] <manchicken> Evening.
[01:36] <mcquaid> sorry asking here, as I'm not getting much info in +1.  the alternate cd install (herd2) just sits there indefinitely with a blue screen after selecting the keyboard.  is there a workaround for this?
[01:38] <yuriy> manchicken: you're working on the feistyadeptchanges spec? are there any plans to do the adept-usability spec?
[02:10] <Hobbsee> anyone interested in porting the usplash-switcher to QT?
[02:25] <jdong> Hobbsee: no. gtk is technologically superior ;-)
[02:26] <Hobbsee> pft
[02:27] <jdong> Hobbsee: nah, I've already uninstalled Windows on most my boxes
[02:27] <manchicken> jdong: I disagree with your gtk statement ^_^
[02:27] <jdong> manchicken: good. now start arguing :)
[02:28] <manchicken> jdong: Qt has threading nicely built in, network protocols nicely built in, and it doesn't look like CDE puked all over my system ;)
[02:28] <jdong> O RLY? :D
[02:29] <manchicken> Really ^_^
[02:29] <jdong> manchicken: the correct response is "YA RLY"
[02:30] <jdong> manchicken: sheesh haven't you ever had AOL buddies before :D
[02:30] <manchicken> jdong: I'm a different kind of smartass.  My sincerest apologies.
[02:31] <jdong> alright, fine, apology accepted
[02:31] <manchicken> heh
[02:31] <manchicken> Are there any KDE conferences that go on in the USA?
[02:32] <manchicken> I think I may try to find a C++ conference.
[02:32] <manchicken> My boss wants me to do some training stuff...
[02:32] <manchicken> Like, formal training stuff.
[02:32] <manchicken> Just to "drive my personal career development."
[02:36] <jdong> Hobbsee: and if it makes you feel better deep down inside, I found yet another unmount dialog bug, but in GNOME :D
[02:37] <Hobbsee> jdong: woot :P
[02:38] <Hobbsee> jdong: so make the GNOME pepole fix all of htem :P
[02:38] <jdong> lol
[02:58] <jjesse> hello
[02:58] <jjesse> good evening Hobbsee
[02:59] <Hobbsee> hey jjesse!  :D
[02:59] <Hobbsee> jjesse: i see you're a co-author!
[02:59] <jjesse> Hobbsee: of???
[02:59] <jjesse> the ubuntu book?
[02:59] <Hobbsee> jjesse: official ubuntu book?
[02:59] <Hobbsee> yeah
[02:59] <jjesse> yeah
[02:59] <Hobbsee> :)
[02:59] <Hobbsee> well done
[03:00] <jjesse> thanks, i'm working on an update for feisty so feel free to email me any changes/additions you would like made
[03:00] <Hobbsee> :)
[03:01] <nixternal> speaking of which, I still need to do jjesse :)
[03:01] <jjesse> yeah you
[03:01] <jjesse> nixternal: got my DSL hooked up so im now in the 21st century
[03:02] <nixternal> woohoo
[03:02] <nixternal> i was surprised to see you online tonight, and then i realised you must have gotten it already :)
[03:02] <Hobbsee> jjesse: yay!!!!
[03:02] <nixternal> hiya Hobbsee!
[03:02] <Hobbsee> hey nixternal
[03:02] <Hobbsee> !
[03:03] <nixternal> i had 4 classes today
[03:03] <nixternal> 8am to 8pm
[03:03] <nixternal> i am exhausted
[03:03] <Hobbsee> eek!
[03:03] <jjesse> yah i wasn't suposed to have it until tomorrow night
[03:03] <Hobbsee> where school is uni/college?
[03:03] <nixternal> yes Hobbsee
[03:03] <jjesse> wife  loves the fact that i'm not kicking her off the  computer
[03:04] <nixternal> hehe, my girlfriend is loving her cable modem, but she is rich so paying all that money isn't killing her
[03:05] <nixternal> anthrapology is going to be nuts. i think i have hitler for an instructor
[03:05] <nixternal> she said the only excused absense is your death
[03:07] <jjesse> wow that's crazy
[03:08] <Hobbsee> heh
[03:08] <nixternal> ya, my psych teacher is cool, my tech journalist instructor is cool, and my other instructor is cool, i forgot the clas
[03:09] <nixternal> oh, like saving a business from failure, thats what we will learn but I can't remember the name :)
[03:09] <canllaith> anthropology, you mean? :)
[03:09] <nixternal> what did i say?
[03:09] <canllaith> anthra :P
[03:10] <nixternal> doh
[03:10] <Jucato> hi Hobbsee, hi canllaith, hi nixternal, hi jjesse!
[03:10] <nixternal> hi
[03:10] <nixternal> Jucato:
[03:10] <nixternal> hi
[03:10] <Hobbsee> it's the famous canllaith!!!
[03:10] <Hobbsee> hey Jucato!
[03:10] <Jucato> yes, the ever so famous canllaith
[03:10] <Jucato> :)
[03:21] <jjesse> hiya Jucato
[03:25] <jjesse> nixternal: are you able to create that debdiff for Riddell for kubuntu-docs?
[03:26] <nixternal> for Edgy?
[03:26] <jjesse> yeah, per the email converstation
[03:26] <nixternal> i think it will just contain the translations, making it a HUGE debdiff
[03:26] <jjesse> nixternal: ok, i jsut hope we can get that bug fixed
[03:26] <jjesse> kinda embarassing
[03:27] <nixternal> i think that is the only major bug for edgy docs
[03:27] <jjesse> yeah it is, but a prety major one i think
[03:27] <nixternal> there were a bunch of string boogs, but those won't get fixed
[03:28] <nixternal> alright, getting the source now, I need to get the edgy branch checked out as well
[03:28] <jjesse> ok
[03:28] <nixternal> another bug we could fix for edgy is the firefox start page with broken links
[03:29] <nixternal> but i don't think that one is all that major truthfully and would require a silly hack in order to fix it
[03:29] <nixternal> that is why i created a browser-startpage in /trunk/kubuntu as you have probably already noticed
[03:45] <nixternal> jjesse: what was the status of the adept guide in edgy? was it broke?
[03:48] <nixternal> of course it isn't
[03:48] <nixternal> we are never at fault :)
[03:49] <Jucato> heheh :)
[03:49] <Jucato> I had a bunch of corrections/typos/suggestions for the Kubuntu Desktop Guide last month... I unfortunately lost them all
[03:51] <nixternal> don't worry, we have wiped away the desktop guide
[03:51] <nixternal> and for the SRU we are only doing translations and no string editing
[03:51] <Jucato> wiped away?
[03:51] <nixternal> no more desktop guide
[03:51] <Jucato> :O
[03:51] <nixternal> Topic Based Help
[03:51] <Jucato> ok good thing you told me...
[03:51] <nixternal> aka, system docs now
[03:51] <Jucato> I was about to re-read the whole thing
[03:52] <nixternal> there is so much work to be done yet
[03:52] <nixternal> i am so busy with school right now, i went from 6 solid Kubuntu/KDE days down to 2 maybe 3
[03:52] <Jucato> I see... but what about printed copies/guides?
[03:52] <Jucato> heh of course, almost all of us have lives outside Kubuntu :)
[03:53] <nixternal> i didn't really :)
[03:53] <Jucato> unless you're lucky to be employed by Canonical :)
[03:53] <nixternal> jjesse: building new kubuntu-docs package now
[03:53] <nixternal> the new package might be easier to provide everything isntead of a debdiff :)
[03:54] <nixternal> im going to finish this and then im going to bed. i am getting to old
[03:54] <Jucato> aw :(
[03:55] <Jucato> no you're not
[03:55] <nixternal> i need to do some reading
[03:56] <Jucato> ok, let me not keep you from your education
[03:56] <Jucato> and good luck
[03:57] <nixternal> hehe
[03:58] <nixternal> I have Kubuntu work I have to finish first :)
[03:58] <Jucato> ok, then let me not keep you from your more important Kubuntu work :P
[03:58] <nixternal> well, there isn't much you can do when running pbuilder, so you can either talk to me or hold me, your choice :)
[03:59] <jjesse> nixternal:  thanks
[03:59] <Jucato> read while running pbuilder? :P
[03:59] <nixternal> i read in bed, because 2 minutes after opening the book i am passed out :)
[03:59] <nixternal> i learn a lot that way
[03:59] <Jucato> lol
[03:59] <nixternal> jjesse: it will be building for a while, there are a ton of translations in Edgy that weren't in Dapper
[03:59] <jjesse> i bet ther was
[04:00] <nixternal> I had to tweak the Makefile, remove old directories (quickstart and quickguide), I removed the adept guide as well because it isn't built at all in the documentation
[04:01] <jjesse> good job
[04:01] <jjesse> maybe one day i can learn :)
[04:01] <nixternal> jjesse: I have really only recently started learning
[04:01] <nixternal> so it isn't all that difficult if I can do it, that's for sure
[04:02] <nixternal> man, I started my leaning session for my diet this week. This is so hard to do because I am so used to taking in 5000+ calories a day
[04:03] <nixternal> and now I am cutting down to about 1750 to 2000 for the next month to 2 months
[04:04] <nixternal> im starving, and i just had my last snack of the day
[04:04] <nixternal> argh
[04:46] <yuriy> here it is http://blogs.ubuntu-nl.org/dennis/2006/09/13/more-fun-with-usplash/
[04:51] <yuriy> having trouble compiling though... i got libgtk2.0-dev but it's complaining about not finding gtk.h...
[04:52] <Jucato> if only usplash itself was so easily customizable...
[05:16] <yuriy> got it working. neat!
[05:21] <yuriy> jeez a qapplication template is as long as this whole program
[10:20] <Tonio_> aloha !
[10:23] <Jucato> hi Tonio_! hi kwwii!
[10:23] <kwwii> moin Jucato
[10:29] <Tonio_> hey guys
[10:35] <freeflying> Tonio_: hi
[10:37] <Tonio_> hey freeflying
[11:00] <Tonio_> is someone there using kde 3.5.6 and kopete ?
[11:01] <Tonio_> I just noticed a bug but I'd like to be sure it's not local problem
[11:01] <Jucato> Tonio_: I am, but not from Kubuntu :(
[11:01] <Tonio_> ah... :)
[11:01] <Jucato> mine is from SVN
[11:03] <Tonio_> okay, thanks but I need feedback from Riddell's packages ;)
[11:03] <Jucato> ah ok :)
[11:04] <kwwii> Tonio_: I am using edgy with 3.5.6, should I test something in kopete?
[11:04] <Tonio_> yup
[11:04] <Tonio_> when someone talks to you and kopete sits in the systray
[11:05] <Tonio_> the notification yellow popup doesn't work here anymore
[11:05] <Tonio_> I just get the icon blinking
[11:05] <Tonio_> can you confirm ?
[11:05] <Jucato> hm...
[11:05] <Jucato> can I confirm?
[11:05] <Tonio_> I tried to play with settings etc.... nothing works
[11:05] <Tonio_> Jucato: yup if you see the issue :)
[11:05] <Jucato> I think it's been filed in b.k.o
[11:05] <Tonio_> and kwwii too
[11:05] <Jucato> yes I do :)
[11:06] <Tonio_> Jucato: I can't see the bug on that f*cking bts ;)
[11:06] <Tonio_> is there a bug id ?
[11:06] <Jucato> hehe I'll look for the logs
[11:06] <Tonio_> okay
[11:06] <Tonio_> so that's confirmed thanks ;)
[11:06] <Tonio_> I have a series of patches to apply to kde packages once 3.5.6 is released, so I'll do that then
[11:06] <Jucato> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140307
[11:06] <Ubugtu> KDE bug 140307 in general "Kopete's balloon stops working with 3.5.6" [Critical,New] 
[11:06] <Riddell> Tonio_: that's a known bug
[11:06] <Tonio_> Riddell: okay
[11:07] <Riddell> Tonio_: it's the reason 3.5.6 is delayed and not being released now
[11:07] <Tonio_> looks like a kicker bug
[11:07] <Tonio_> Riddell: ah ? ;)
[11:07] <Riddell> Tonio_: try kicker from 3.5.5 to confirm
[11:07] <Tonio_> Riddell: good point, now they don't release with critical issues ? ;)
[11:08] <Tonio_> Riddell: yep I'm gonna do this
[11:08] <Riddell> others suggested it was kwin
[11:09] <Tonio_> Riddell: well hard to test with kicker 3.5.5 ans kwin 3.5.6 ;)
[11:09] <Riddell> why?
[11:10] <Tonio_> Riddell: I'mm looking at the deps
[11:10] <Tonio_> hum okay no deps on that point, I'm just reinstalling kicker
[11:14] <Tonio_> Riddell: bah I can't get the applets without changing the all kde..... pain...
[11:21] <Tonio_> Riddell: that's okay, I have old kicker and recent kwin
[11:21] <Tonio_> argh the bug is still there
[11:23] <Riddell> try kwin from 3.5.5
[11:23] <Riddell> then try kopete from 3.5.5
[11:24] <Tonio_> yes that's what I'm doing now
[11:34] <Tonio_> Riddell: the bug occurs in every combinason
[11:35] <Tonio_> I replaced kicker, then updated kicker and replaced kwin, then updated kwin and replaced kopete
[11:35] <Tonio_> I have the issue in any case
[11:37] <Tonio_> Riddell: sorry for the bad news ;)
[11:37] <Tonio_> Riddell: I'll comment on the kubuntu bug
[11:44] <Riddell> Tonio_: what if you downgrade to 3.5.5 kicker, kwin and kopete?
[11:45] <Tonio_> Riddell: testing ;)
[12:11] <Tonio_> Riddell: just tested
[12:11] <Riddell> Tonio_: and..?
[12:11] <Tonio_> Riddell: I replaced kwin, kicker, kopete and due to deps, kdm, kdebase-data, kdebase-bin, kdesktop
[12:11] <Tonio_> fails too, bug is there
[12:12] <Tonio_> I would say that's kdelibs
[12:13] <Riddell> next thing to downgrade then :)
[12:13] <Tonio_> argh
[12:13] <Tonio_> Riddell: I just killed my all profile ;)
[12:13] <Riddell> the future of KDE depends on you!
[12:13] <Jucato> heh
[12:13] <raphink> hahahaha
[12:14] <raphink> you can do it Tonio!
[12:14] <Tonio_> Riddell: hum would that help ? downgrading the all kdelibs means downgrading everything.....
[12:14] <Tonio_> okay testing...
[12:14] <Riddell> Tonio_: I'd say downgrade everything and get it working, then upgrade bits to see when it breaks
[12:15] <Tonio_> Riddell: okay so tracking this is the plan of the day ?
[12:16] <Tonio_> okay let's go :(
[12:17] <Tonio_> 132 packages removed..........
[12:22] <Tonio_> Riddell: reinstalling the all kde thing, version 3.5.5
[12:22] <Tonio_> if the problem occurs, I promiss to go kill myself immediately
[12:26] <Riddell> that's a bit harsh
[12:26] <Riddell> just take it out on the computer
[12:26] <Tonio_> Riddell: depends on my feeling at that moment :)
[12:29] <viviersf> Riddell, ive just seen release-proposed repositories for the first time, what exactly goes in there ?
[12:32] <Riddell> viviersf: it's for testing stable release updates
[12:32] <Riddell> we have a long and beurocratic process for SRUs now
[12:33] <Riddell> but in brief packages once approved go to edgy-proposed, they get tested by people and if there's no problems after a week they go to edgy-updates for everyone to use
[12:33] <Tonio_> Riddell: okay works with 3.5.5
[12:34] <Tonio_> I'm upgrading kopete first, then kdelibs
[12:34] <Riddell> you probably can't do that
[12:34] <Tonio_> no maybe kdelibs first
[12:34] <Riddell> worth a shot but
[12:34] <Tonio_> well I'll try :) we'll see
[12:36] <Tonio_> upgrading this at the moment :kdelibs-data kdelibs4c2a
[12:36] <Riddell> make sure you're starting kopete from the command line
[12:36] <Riddell> else it'll use old libs
[12:36] <Tonio_> well I'm reloading the all desktop everytime just to be sure
[12:36] <Riddell> that'll do it too :)
[12:38] <Tonio_> okay I'm on irc with kopete that'll be easier
[12:38] <Tonio_> Riddell: can you post a message in 5 seconds ?
[12:38] <Tonio_> now !
[12:39] <Tonio_> okay with new kdelibs it's okay
[12:39] <Tonio_> upgrading kopete now
[12:44] <viviersf> ah thanks Riddell
[12:45] <Riddell> Tonio_: hi
[12:45] <Tonio_> Riddell: works with kopete 3.5.6 and kdelibs 3.5.6
[12:45] <Tonio_> upgrading kwin now
[12:49] <Hobbsee> hey Riddell :)
[12:53] <Hobbsee> Riddell: argh....what did they *do* to the desktop settings???
[12:54] <Hobbsee> looks like they've massacred crystal!
[01:00] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: dist-upgrade again, I fixed that that night
[01:00] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: what hte heck did you do???
[01:02] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: I uploaded a bad version of kwincrystalrc
[01:04] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: I uploaded a bad version of kwincrystalrc
[01:04] <Tonio_> should be okay in the latest kds
[01:04] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: it's still killed!
[01:05] <Mez> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kubuntu-devel/2007-January/001530.html
[01:08] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: ahh.  that's better.  i grabbed the feisty version
[01:08] <Hobbsee> s/feisty/edgy
[01:15] <Tonio_> can someone post a message please ?
[01:15] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: heya!
[01:15] <Hobbsee> ooh, pink kde!!!
[01:16] <Tonio_> Riddell: failed when I upgraded kwin.....
[01:16] <Tonio_> strange.......
[01:16] <Tonio_> should be a dep of kwin then, or a combinason of issues....
[01:16] <Tonio_> kde 3.5.6 with kopete, kwin 3.5.5 bug is there
[01:17] <Tonio_> kde 3.5.5 with kwin 3.5.6, bug is there........ nonsense :)
[01:17] <gnomefreak> pink kde?
[01:17] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: yeah, was playing with themes
[01:17] <gnomefreak> ah
[01:19] <Tonio__> Riddell: I don't understand at all ;)
[01:23] <Tonio_> Riddell: I lost my konversation historic, can you remind me the bug id please ?
[01:25] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 78811 in kdebase "CAN'T UMOUNT REMOVABLE MEDIA" [Undecided,Needs info] 
[01:25] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: yeah thats a pitty
[01:26] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: for example when you want to format a usb key with qtparted
[01:27] <Tonio_> I'm really wondering if we should keep _Sime's patches if they are not improved for feisty....
[01:27] <Tonio_> they are resolving lots of issue, but creating many ones too
[01:30] <Hobbsee> indeed
[01:30] <Hobbsee> do they *really* solve much at all?
[01:35] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: they do resolve all gtk apps issues with medias
[01:35] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: that's a lot ;)
[01:35] <Hobbsee> ah yes, of course.
[01:36] <Tonio_> but they create lots of other issues, with logout/login, with qtparted, with any app that requires that the media is unmounted
[01:36] <Tonio_> it seems they don't work the same way on every machine
[01:36] <Tonio_> I have a usb key that doesn't work anymore on my computer
[01:36] <Tonio_> but works in /media
[01:36] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: we couldnt do along the lines of "if a non-kde app is using it, use /media, else use media:/" ?
[01:36] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: hard to do ;)
[01:37] <Hobbsee> or symlink /media to media:/ or something?
[01:37] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: but well as feisty is the latest kde3 based version of kubuntu, we have to consider it as an lts
[01:37] <Tonio_> and in my opinion, we should rediscuss this
[01:37] <Hobbsee> yes - but what's the solution though?
[01:37] <Tonio_> the point is that /media related issues are undocumented over the net
[01:37] <Hobbsee> yeah
[01:37] <Tonio_> the /media:/ issues with gtk apps are
[01:37] <Tonio_> media:/ sorry
[01:37] <Hobbsee> indeed
[01:38] <Tonio_> so maybe it's better to let people with those issues since they can find help everywhere, on any board etc....
[01:38] <Tonio_> kde4 will correct those issues out of the box, that's the good point
[01:38] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: another issue is the naming of the desktop icons
[01:38] <Tonio_> disk1 is really crappy
[01:39] <Tonio_> kde native does a great translated naming
[01:39] <Hobbsee> woot :)
[01:39] <Tonio_> we should discuss this and vote at the next kubuntu-meeting
[01:39] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: so what does this "help" entail?
[01:39] <Tonio_> it was interesting to test with edgy, now we have to debate this for a stable release
[01:40] <Tonio_> which "help" are you talking about ?
[01:40] <Hobbsee> [23:38]  <Tonio_> so maybe it's better to let people with those issues since they can find help everywhere, on any board etc....  <-- that help
[01:41] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: the fact that the standard kde issues are documented everywhere on the next board etc....
[01:41] <Tonio_> the kubuntu specific issues aren't
[01:41] <Tonio_> that's a problem
[01:42] <Hobbsee> is there *any* way to fix both sets of issues?
[01:42] <Hobbsee> ah yes, true
[01:42] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: nope except improving the patches, but that's really hard job
[01:43] <Hobbsee> hrm
[01:43] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: the point is that all kubuntu apps, even openoffice deal correctly with media:/
[01:43] <Tonio_> only gnome apps fail
[01:43] <Tonio_> well edgy was to test new things
[01:43] <Tonio_> new we have to debate this and looks at the consequences
[01:43] <Hobbsee> right.  patching all the gnome apps to behave isnt a solution, presumably
[01:43] <Tonio_> my opinion is "get the patches improved or remove them"
[01:44] <Hobbsee> that would be mine as well
[01:44] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: the solution is kde4 ;)
[01:44] <Hobbsee> well, yeah.  but that hasnt been released yet :) :P
[01:44] <Tonio_> and honnestly I don't think _Sime will have time for this actually
[01:44] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: that's the problem, we have to decide which issues we want to have
[01:44] <Hobbsee> yes...he seems pretty busy
[01:44] <Tonio_> to me, on the desktop part, for a normal usage, the old media:/ is less problematic
[01:45] <Tonio_> only gtk apps are involved, that's it
[01:45] <Tonio_> the new creates lots of issues on the standard desktop usage
[01:45] <Tonio_> like formatting a drive with qtparted, crappy render on the desktop "icon names"
[01:45] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: another example, insert an audiocd and go to /media
[01:46] <Hobbsee> sorry to beat the horse repeatedly here, but is there *any* way of fixing the gtk apps, short of patching?
[01:46] <Tonio_> then click on the cd -> blank folder
[01:46] <Hobbsee> yeah
[01:46] <Tonio_> that's why the desktop icon still uses audiocd:/
[01:46] <Tonio_> but john doe will probably not figure and understand that
[01:46] <Hobbsee> yeah
[01:46] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: yes you can
[01:47] <Tonio_> there are lots os issues like this one
[01:47] <Hobbsee> then lets pull the patches.
[01:47] <Tonio_> to mount network shares too, doesn't work anymore
[01:47] <Tonio_> and that causes another problem :
[01:47] <Tonio_> all kde docs are broken due to those patches
[01:47] <Hobbsee> that's the only thing that's effected by pulling the patches?  the gtk apps?  or have i missed something?
[01:47] <Tonio_> someone trying to do something according to the kde docs will stay locked on the computer
[01:47] <Hobbsee> yep
[01:48] <Tonio_> mostly gtk apps issues yes
[01:48] <Tonio_> some kde apps have problems with media:/
[01:48] <Hobbsee> maybe put something in the kubuntu-specific notes about gtk needing to use /media instead of media:/ by typing it in - but i think we need to pull the patches
[01:48] <Hobbsee> oh?
[01:48] <Tonio_> but that's generally a matter of patching the desktop file
[01:48] <Tonio_> which we do
[01:48] <Hobbsee> ah
[01:48] <Tonio_> in the current stage I would vote for removing them yes
[01:49] <Hobbsee> pity Riddell isnt around
[01:49] <Tonio_> because to me feisty is an lts
[01:49] <Hobbsee> and it needs to work.
[01:49] <Tonio_> feisty+1 will probably not be that mature
[01:49] <Hobbsee> heh, no.
[01:49] <Hobbsee> not if it's got kde 4.0 in there
[01:50] <Tonio_> it'll have kde4 for sure, unless kde4 is a peace if shit :)
[01:50] <Hobbsee> hehe :)
[01:50] <Tonio_> feisty+1 will be experimental
[01:50] <Tonio_> edgy was experimental
[01:50] <Hobbsee> do we need to pull them now, or should we ask if anyone has some major gripe about them on the mailing list first?
[01:51] <Tonio_> so feisty is the only stable and mature version of kubuntu to be released between dapper and feisty+2
[01:51] <Tonio_> that's 18 month !
[01:51] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: ouch.  lets pull them - or go to the ML first?
[01:51] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: bah if _Sime didn't do better it's probably because the all kde structure is based on media:/ and ioslaves
[01:52] <Tonio_> that's an horribly complicated thing o change.......
[01:52] <Hobbsee> yes....it's pretty much changing a core piece of kde
[01:52] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: I would say discuss on the meeting and decide...
[01:52] <Tonio_> there is no emergency at the moment
[01:52] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: we dont have a time for the next meeting
[01:52] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: let's plan it :)
[01:52] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: it's just a fwe more weeks that we ahve for testing, and any regressions.
[01:53] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: bah it's okay
[01:53] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: the point is that we know what'll happen if we pull them
[01:53] <Tonio_> standard kde behavior :)
[01:53] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: the other question is, do we pull the edgy version with a SRU, or jus tleave it?
[01:53] <Tonio_> no surprise and no need to test, the issues are already well known
[01:53] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: I'd say don't touch edgy
[01:53] <Hobbsee> ditto cimmo, if he sees it
[01:53] <Tonio_> it's crappy, so let's focus on feisty
[01:53] <Hobbsee> fair enough
[01:54] <Tonio_> the only thing I wanna fix on edgy is the knetworkmanager issue
[01:54] <Tonio_> that's a pitty
[01:54] <Tonio_> and the kwallet one too
[01:54] <Hobbsee> what was the kwallet one?
[01:54] <Hobbsee> yes...but putting thru SRU's is a bitch, so i dont do them :P
[01:54] <Tonio_> looses passwords on session restore
[01:54] <Tonio_> I have a patch for this
[01:55] <Tonio_> I'm just waiting for 3.5.6 to put it in
[01:55] <Hobbsee> ah
[01:55] <Hobbsee> neat :)
[01:55] <Hobbsee> er...did we already have 3.5.6 edgy debs?
[01:55] <Tonio_> not officials
[01:56] <Hobbsee> ah yes, right.  not on kubuntu.org
[01:58] <Tonio_> we have to decide a date for the next meeting :)
[01:58] <Tonio_> I'd like to propose a new kicker structure too
[01:59] <Hobbsee> what would it be?
[01:59] <Tonio_> let me show you
[02:00] <Tonio_> http://tonio.homelinux.org/temp/capture5.png
[02:00] <Tonio_> same space used, but desktop applet present, since lots of windows user complain they don't find the same in kubuntu
[02:00] <Tonio_> and that's very usefull
[02:01] <Tonio_> and I used the app launcher
[02:01] <Hobbsee> desktop applet?
[02:01] <Tonio_> the left icon
[02:01] <Hobbsee> oh, show desktop?
[02:01] <Jucato> yeah
[02:01] <Tonio_> yep
[02:01] <Tonio_> and I used the app launcher
[02:01] <Hobbsee> those 6 little ones on the left - how did you make them go small?
[02:01] <Tonio_> nobody knows that so we have to put it by default
[02:01] <Jucato> Quick Launcher
[02:01] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: I used the app launcher applet
[02:01] <Tonio_> you can add whatever you want on it
[02:02] <Tonio_> I just put all the power apps and that's it
[02:02] <Hobbsee> ahhh :)
[02:02] <Jucato> and reduced the virtual desktops to 2, right?
[02:02] <Hobbsee> so *that's* how they do it!
[02:02] <Tonio_> nobody knows this applet which is a must have
[02:02] <Tonio_> yep, that's enough for the common usage
[02:02] <Jucato> hm...
[02:02] <Jucato> wouldn't the quick launcher sort of (in some way) duplicate Katapult?
[02:03] <Hobbsee> no
[02:03] <Hobbsee> not really
[02:03] <Jucato> ok :)
[02:04] <Tonio_> Jucato: nobody knows katapult exist :)
[02:04] <Jucato> Tonio_: that's going to change, according to Mez, right?
[02:04] <Tonio_> to me katapult is very usefull for apps I'm not using everyday
[02:04] <Tonio_> Jucato: we are going to rediscuss this on the next meeting
[02:05] <Tonio_> I wanna enable the icon in the tray by default
[02:05] <Jucato> yes, please do :)
[02:05] <Tonio_> so that people figure out it exists
[02:05] <Jucato> it's one of the ways you can "refresh" Katapult when you install a new app
[02:05] <Tonio_> people that don't want the icon can remove it after installation
[02:05] <Tonio_> Jucato: true
[02:05] <Tonio_> so what's your opinion on that new kicker structure ?
[02:05] <Hobbsee> argh.  you cant actually move the kapp thingo
[02:06] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: no just right lick on the applet and add new app
[02:06] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: bah it works here
[02:06] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: yes, but once youv'e done work on it, you cnat actually move it down
[02:06] <Hobbsee> hwo'd you do it?
[02:06] <Tonio_> I can slide an app from the kmenu to the launcher applet
[02:06] <Hobbsee> no, i mean move the launcher applet along the kicker
[02:07] <Jucato> er.. use the handles
[02:07] <Tonio_> you can by clicking the little arrow on the left of the applet
[02:07] <Tonio_> and configure it to "keep space" icons look better that way
[02:07] <Jucato> "Conserve space" (in English I think)
[02:07] <Tonio_> you have a few kicker applets that you cannot move via right click, like the trash one
[02:07] <Hobbsee> ahhh...
[02:07] <Jucato> you can even set icon size :)
[02:08] <Tonio_> the only universal way os the little arrow on the left of the applet
[02:08] <Jucato> ditto Hobbsee
[02:08] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: yes sorry uncheck it ;)
[02:08] <Tonio_> so yes, that applet is a killer and we should provide it by default in my opinion :)
[02:08] <Tonio_> I hope you'll vote for me next meeting :)
[02:08] <Jucato> does a non-member's vote count?
[02:09] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: you know, i'd looked at that in the screenshots, and wondered how people got that effect...
[02:09] <Tonio_> sure but not that much :)
[02:09] <Jucato> heh :)
[02:09] <Hobbsee> Jucato: why arent you a member yet?
[02:09] <Jucato> Hobbsee: funny you should ask that...
[02:09] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: yes, that's why I wanna provide that by default, so that people figure out what's possible
[02:09] <Hobbsee> :)
[02:10] <Jucato> someone asked me that exact same question last night...
[02:10] <Hobbsee> :)
[02:10] <Tonio_> Jucato: well technically the CC takes the decision, but of course of the all members want something different, that'll be debated ;)
[02:10] <Jucato> :)
[02:10] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: lock and logout buttons on there too would be good
[02:10] <Tonio_> do you like my kicker arrangement ?
[02:11] <Tonio_> hum on kicker ?
[02:11] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: any chance we coudl put rubbish in home:/ or something?
[02:11] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: that's already in the system applet
[02:11] <Jucato> I can't recall, but wasn the Trash can
[02:11] <Tonio_> no duplicated please ;)
[02:11] <Jucato> rawr...
[02:11] <Jucato> the Trach icon on the desktop in Edgy?
[02:11] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: ahhh...that's the one i meant.
[02:11] <Hobbsee> the trash icon there has *always* annoyed me
[02:11] <Jucato> Hobbsee: where? desktop or panel?
[02:12] <Hobbsee> what's the point in having it there - most of the time, you dont want to clear the trash - why have it taking up screen space?
[02:12] <Hobbsee> panel..  desktop.  either/both, actually
[02:12] <Jucato> heh
[02:12] <Lathiat> hobbsee: its to drag things too also
[02:12] <Hobbsee> heya Lathiat :)
[02:12] <Lathiat> except i wonder how many people actually do that ;)
[02:12] <Lathiat> howdy
[02:12] <Tonio_> http://tonio.homelinux.org/capture6.png
[02:12] <Jucato> you can drag on the desktop too, provided it's visible :)
[02:12] <Lathiat> I DEMAND USABILITY TESTING ;)
[02:12] <Hobbsee> Lathiat: ahhh...point.  see, most people know about the "delete" key
[02:12] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: would you prefer this ?
[02:12] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: sure, i prefer 404'd images :P
[02:12] <Tonio_> look on the right ;)
[02:13] <Tonio_> http://tonio.homelinux.org/temp/capture6.png
[02:13] <Hobbsee> ahh yes, that looks better.
[02:13] <Tonio_> doesn't that duplicates a bit ?
[02:13] <Tonio_> it's just on the bottom of kmenu.....
[02:13] <Jucato> good thing I'm not a member... I'd -1 the logout applet :)
[02:14] <Tonio_> Jucato: personnaly I prefer the trash applet on the left
[02:14] <Tonio_> nearby the system applet
[02:14] <Tonio_> but that's an ubuntu/kubuntu/xubuntu specific, we have to keep it on the right
[02:14] <Jucato> trash applet on the left?
[02:14] <Tonio_> I'd -1 the logout applet too
[02:15] <Jucato> hehe unique :)
[02:15] <Tonio_> well that can be discussed too, but we need something simple, since anyone has a different vision :)
[02:15] <Jucato> Hobbsee: I'd say that the logout applet on kicker is 1) a power user feature and 2) a GNOME "standard" (no GNOME bashing from me)
[02:16] <Hobbsee> indeed.  it's something that i really miss in kde
[02:16] <Tonio_> another one will want the file browser applet
[02:16] <Jucato> quick file browser?
[02:16] <Tonio_> yup
[02:16] <Tonio_> but please no !
[02:16] <Hobbsee> haha
[02:16] <Jucato> heh soon our kicker will be corwded :)
[02:16] <Tonio_> I use it, but that's not for the masse !
[02:16] <gnomefreak> ;)
[02:16] <Tonio_> bah wy not the 2 buttons
[02:17] <Tonio_> kind of unify gnome/kde on ubuntu
[02:17] <Tonio_> that's not that bad
[02:17] <Jucato> if Riddell agrees :)
[02:17] <Tonio_> we have the trash on the right for the same reason so....
[02:17] <Tonio_> were is it on ubuntu ?
[02:17] <Jucato> bottom panel right
[02:17] <Tonio_> right or left of the trash ?
[02:17] <Jucato> err?
[02:17] <Tonio_> the logout thing
[02:18] <Jucato> trash - bottom right, logut - top right
[02:18] <Jucato> logout even
[02:18] <Jucato> iirc
[02:18] <gnomefreak> thats right
[02:18] <Tonio_> yeah that's a problem we only have one bar, better not put too many things on it, so logout/lock is maby too much
[02:18] <Tonio_> http://tonio.homelinux.org/temp/capture5.png
[02:18] <Tonio_> that's better ;)
[02:19] <Tonio_> that also present all power apps instead of just konqueror/kontact
[02:19] <Tonio_> amarok needs to be easilly accessible
[02:19] <Tonio_> the content isn't the final of course, it is just the concept of using the launcher applet,
[02:20] <Tonio_> killer and unknown thing
[02:20] <Hobbsee> i'm wondering about the kaffeine though - do you need it - if you are playing removable media, then it comes up anyway
[02:20] <Hobbsee> yeah
[02:20] <Tonio_> no
[02:20] <Tonio_> coulb be this in fact
[02:20] <Hobbsee> :)
[02:20] <Tonio_> konqui, kopete, k3b, amarok
[02:20] <Jucato> but maybe Kopete instead of Konvi?
[02:20] <Tonio_> I would say no
[02:20] <Tonio_> k3b should be removed too
[02:20] <Hobbsee> Jucato: once kopete is started, it stays in the tray - no real need?
[02:21] <Jucato> true...
[02:21] <gnomefreak> Tonio_: k3b is widely used
[02:21] <Tonio_> true ;)
[02:21] <Tonio_> so like this !
[02:21] <Jucato> but it's a quick launcher, a way to quickly launch apps
[02:21] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: sure, but how often do you burn a cd?   :P
[02:21] <gnomefreak> konvi over kopete IMHO
[02:21] <gnomefreak> Hobbsee: point
[02:21] <Tonio_> hat's my point too
[02:21] <Tonio_> kopete instead of konversatio
[02:22] <Hobbsee> does kopete usually start on startup?  like, is there a setting for that?
[02:22] <Jucato> um nope it doesn't
[02:22] <Tonio_> http://tonio.homelinux.org/temp/capture7.png
[02:22] <Jucato> unless it's saved in a session
[02:22] <Tonio_> how about that ?
[02:23] <Tonio_> can be gwenview too
[02:23] <Tonio_> that's very usefull
[02:23] <Tonio_> or digikam
[02:23] <Tonio_> well any user can add what he wants after the installation
[02:23] <Tonio_> the point is just showing the user the applet exists
[02:23] <gnomefreak> digikam == importer of photos from cam?
[02:23] <Tonio_> that's the idea
[02:23] <Jucato> yep
[02:23] <Tonio_> gnomefreak: yes
[02:23] <Jucato> but a bit more than that...
[02:23] <Tonio_> the content is not important according to me
[02:24] <Jucato> I use it for photo/album organizing :)
[02:24] <gnomefreak> Tonio_: i like the idea of adding that than since alot of users use digi cams
[02:24] <Jucato> yeah, let's just basically tell them that such a feature exists, then let them customize :)
[02:24] <Tonio_> Jucato: that's it
[02:24] <Tonio_> the default content is not the point
[02:24] <Jucato> gnomefreak: but,like Kaffeine, digikam could be launched when you plug in a camera, afaik
[02:24] <Tonio_> that's the problem we also have with katapult
[02:25] <Tonio_> it is there but who knows ?
[02:25] <gnomefreak> that would be better
[02:25] <Jucato> yeah, it's a problem seele had with katapult too :)
[02:25] <Tonio_> Jucato: true
[02:25] <Tonio_> Jucato: we need to change that
[02:25] <Jucato> she also had a problem of "what to do with katapult once launched"
[02:25] <Tonio_> I discussed with Mez and we absolutly agree on that point
[02:25] <Tonio_> we shouldn't hide the icon by default
[02:25] <Mez> ;)
[02:26] <Tonio_> and let riddel hide it after installation since he hates systray icons :)
[02:26] <Jucato> lol
[02:26] <Mez> Tonio_, I see Riddell's POv
[02:26] <Mez> it's a notification area - whats it notifying you of
[02:26] <Tonio_> true
[02:26] <Jucato> it notifies you that it exists...
[02:26] <Jucato> that it's running
[02:27] <Tonio_> because I can't say a user "you wanna configure katapult ?
[02:27] <Tonio_> okay let's do alt + space
[02:27] <Tonio_> then ctrl + C
[02:27] <Jucato> you could also say the same for kmix
[02:27] <Tonio_> sucks.... really !
[02:27] <Tonio_> Jucato: exactly
[02:27] <Jucato> (besides, it's only GNOME that calls it notification area... we call it system tray)
[02:27] <Mez> Jucato, Riddell doesnt have kmix there either IIRC from when I was fiddling with his lappy
[02:28] <Tonio_> Mez: I'm not even sure riddell uses the systray applet at all ;)
[02:28] <Jucato> Mez: we're unfortunately not blessed with Riddell's greatness... :(
[02:28] <Tonio_> Riddell uses konsole + konqueror and that's it ;)
[02:28] <Mez> Tonio_, lol ... how did ou know ?
[02:28] <Tonio_> Mez: I met him several times
[02:29] <Tonio_> I think (unsure) he doesn't use contact for his mails
[02:29] <Tonio_> but a command line thing
[02:29] <Tonio_> don't recall the name...
[02:29] <Jucato> wow
[02:29] <Mez> Tonio_, I believe he uses mutt
[02:29] <Tonio_> yes that's it
[02:29] <Jucato> a true blue, old-school Linux user :)
[02:29] <Tonio_> well everybody can do what he wants, that's not the point
[02:30] <Tonio_> but katapult has to fit in the systray as default option
[02:30] <Tonio_> I would probably hide it, but the default hidden thing is a problem, really
[02:30] <Tonio_> since any new user misses a true kubuntu unique feature
[02:31] <Tonio_> my girlfriend uses kubuntu for 1 year now
[02:31] <Jucato> a very powerful true kubuntu unique feature
[02:31] <Tonio_> Mez: I discussed with her 2 days ago, she didn't knew katapult at all
[02:31] <Tonio_> I would even suggest that the popup at every boot should be there by default
[02:31] <Tonio_> so that the user would test "alt + space" just to guess what it is
[02:31] <Tonio_> then he can remove this if he wants
[02:32] <Tonio_> it is important that the user is invited to perform an alt + space at the first boot, really
[02:32] <Tonio_> Mez: no ?
[02:32] <Tonio_> then he can remove that easilly via the systray icon, and even hide the icon and that's it
[02:33] <Tonio_> we have to think like a newbie in front of kubuntu for the first time
[02:33] <Jucato> lol
[02:34] <Jucato> one of Kubuntu's good images is being easy to learn/use for new Linux users. so let's try to keep that up :)
[02:36] <Tonio_> Jucato: bah concerning katapult, it is simply unvisible for the user actually
[02:36] <Tonio_> invisible, sorry
[02:36] <Jucato> yeah
[02:36] <gnomefreak> Jucato: going too easy may cause drop in proformance no?
[02:36] <Jucato> gnomefreak: er.. not always :)
[02:36] <Tonio_> Mez: concerning me you'll get the full support on the meeting :)
[02:37] <Mez> Tonio_, when is the meeting?
[02:37] <gnomefreak> makes more sense
[02:37] <Tonio_> Mez: we have to plan it :)
[02:37] <Tonio_> i'd say soon since we have lots of things to debate
[02:37] <Jucato> gnomefreak: since when did English make sense? :P
[02:37] <Tonio_> I'd like next week on thursday
[02:37] <gnomefreak> ;)
[02:37] <gnomefreak> true
[02:38] <Tonio_> Mez: start by adding your point there : https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
[02:38] <Tonio_> Mez: I'll try to get a date defined today
[02:39] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: of the meeting?  argh.
[02:39] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: not today for the meeting
[02:39] <Tonio_> today to define the date ;)
[02:39] <Mez> Tonio_, can it wait till thursday when I'[ve got my rrota so I can see when I'm available
[02:39] <Hobbsee> yes.  argh
[02:39] <Hobbsee> Mez: ditto
[02:39] <Tonio_> Mez: thursday next week :)
[02:39] <Tonio_> we generally never plan a meeting before one week
[02:40] <Tonio_> sure it can wait ;)
[02:40] <Tonio_> no problem
[02:40] <Tonio_> let's plan this on thursday
[02:40] <Tonio_> you all should try it !
[02:40] <Jucato> heh :)
[02:40] <Tonio_> latest version kickass
[02:41] <Tonio_> Jucato: konqueror frezzes regularly when you want to upload/download a hudge file list
[02:41] <Tonio_> like 100 or 200 files
[02:42] <Jucato> heh yeah... that's why I said medium sized :)
[02:42] <Mez> Tonio_, I dont know when I'm free until this thursday thoguh
[02:42] <Jucato> fortunately, I neither have the bandwidth nor the storage for that many files :P
[02:42] <Tonio_> me neither, but lots of little files, that can happen like a phpscript
[02:42] <Tonio_> a board like vbulletin
[02:42] <Tonio_> Mez: okay so let's wait a bit, no emergency
[02:42] <Tonio_> Mez: but please add your point
[02:43] <Jucato> I think there was a bug filed on that, iirc. came across it during the last bug weekend
[02:43] <Tonio_> Jucato: bah vbulletin is 800k  you know :)
[02:43] <Tonio_> lots of very little files in fact
[02:43] <Jucato> O.O
[03:47] <Jucato> heh :)
[03:53] <mhb> hi all
[03:53] <Jucato> hi mhb
[03:53] <mhb> Riddell: Tonio_ and Mez suggested having katapult icon in systray, at least last time they were suggesting that
[03:55] <Riddell> god no
[03:55] <nixternal> why would they want the icon in the systray?
[03:56] <Riddell> some people live in the systray
[03:56] <Riddell> they want everything in there
[03:56] <nixternal> I guess so, I can't stand having a filled up systray
[03:56] <Riddell> exactly
[03:56] <Jucato> 1) Many don't know Katapult exists, the popup notification only flashes for a very short time (and it doesn't flash if it's a saved session iirc)
[03:56] <nixternal> especially since I run a smaller than default Kicker, so my systray is on 1 line and not split
[03:57] <Riddell> if people don't know it exists, they won't miss it
[03:57] <nixternal> heh, that's true
[03:58] <Jucato> 2) without a system tray icon, there is no immediately apparent way to configure katapult. sometimes you have to manually run Configure katapult to sort of update it after installing a new program
[03:58] <nixternal> I know I have documented the Ctr+C keycombo after you Alt+Space to get into the configure menu
[03:58] <mhb> Jucato: 2) can be solved in the documentaion, isn't it?
[03:58] <nixternal> mhb: yes it is, I did it :)
[03:58] <Riddell> no, 2) should be solved with a UI fix
[03:58] <Jucato> how do you get immediately to the documentation?
[03:58] <Tonio_> Riddell: people that don't want it in the systray can remove it in the conf
[03:58] <Riddell> Tonio_: people that want it in the systray can add it in the conf
[03:58] <nixternal> Jucato: Mez creates a new package with the fixed Makefile :)
[03:59] <mhb> nixternal: thanks for that, then
[03:59] <Jucato> nixternal: I mean, how do you immediately reach the documentation to know how to configure Katapult? you'd have to search through khelpcenter...
[03:59] <Riddell> fix the katapult UI!  don't add a systray applet
[03:59] <nixternal> Riddell: +1
[04:00] <Riddell> add a bit to the UI that you click on to get a menu
[04:00] <Tonio_> Riddell: I would agree on that point if we let the start popup
[04:01] <Tonio_> that invites the user to perform an alt+space
[04:01] <nixternal> Riddell: add a bit to the Ubiquity slideshow as well letting users know about Katapult :)
[04:01] <Jucato> mabye Katapult's popup can be made to appear (a bit longer?) even when starting from a saved session
[04:01] <Riddell> nixternal: good plan (not that I see the slideshow happening for feisty)
[04:01] <Tonio_> Riddell: how about that :
[04:01] <Tonio_> UI is fixed so that there is a configure option when you perform alt+space
[04:01] <Tonio_> we let the popup by default
[04:01] <Tonio_> then the user is invited to alt+space
[04:01] <Riddell> fix UI yes
[04:01] <Tonio_> and can remove the popup if he wants
[04:02] <Tonio_> how about that solution ?
[04:02] <Riddell> don't have an annoying popup, that's also annoying
[04:02] <nixternal> Riddell: argh, that means I have to do more Kubuntu documentation :)
[04:02] <Riddell> nixternal: what does?
[04:02] <nixternal> I am so glad you told me that, because I was not going to do any release notes what so ever
[04:02] <Tonio_> Riddell: as long as it can be removed very easilly when you perform the suggested icon ?
[04:04] <Tonio_> Riddell: lots of kubuntu are missing a super functionnality, that's a problem....
[04:04] <Jucato> katapult is a great tool, why not let people know that it exists... (and how to use it)
[04:04] <Riddell> it's an advanced user tool
[04:04] <mhb> Jucato: I have never seen the popup when I first ran katapult
[04:04] <Riddell> same as alt-f2
[04:04] <Tonio_> to me as long as the popup is there and alt+space provide a configuration access, that's okay no ?
[04:04] <mhb> Jucato: and I have not needed it for a loong time (the configuration)
[04:04] <Jucato> mhb: maybe, but for example, it's currently the only way to sort of refresh katapult when new items are added to the K Menu
[04:04] <nixternal> back to school
[04:05] <Jucato> also, some people might want to turn off some of the catalogs
[04:05] <mhb> Jucato: yes, but not everyone
[04:06] <Jucato> mhb: same as not everyone having no need to configure it
[04:06] <nixternal> Jucato: msg me *testing something*
[04:07] <Jucato> lol
[04:08] <Riddell> popups are also annoying
[04:08] <Jucato> just for a few seconds longer than the current duration... just enough to be read properly...
[04:10] <mhb> Jucato: that's one thing why people hate MS Windows
[04:10] <mhb> Jucato: because it shows popups for unnecessary things
[04:10] <mhb> Jucato: when the computer is interrupting me (with a popup, for example) it should need my concentration for a very good reason
[04:11] <Jucato> depends I guess if you consider informing the user about this feature unnecessary...
[04:11] <Jucato> um... the popup only displays for a few seconds on startup...
[04:12] <mhb> Jucato: only in such manner
[04:12] <Jucato> I doubt you'd be fully concentrated during that time...
[04:12] <mhb> Jucato: katapult is not the most important part of the system, it's just a single part
[04:12] <mhb> Jucato: why should it get more attention that any other app?
[04:12] <mhb> Jucato: those are really useful too
[04:13] <Jucato> because those other apps are not like katapult, i.e. not needing attention, not needing a special way to activate, not having a special purpose like it
[04:13] <bddebian> Heya
[04:14] <mhb> Jucato: no need to argue about it now :o)
[04:14] <Jucato> even seele was a bit confused about this. she didn't know that it existed (or what it was) and how to use it, just basing on the gui and visual feedback...
[04:14] <mhb> Jucato: after all, I'm not the right person to convince
[04:14] <Jucato> heh :)
[04:14] <Jucato> I won't try to do anymore convincing...
[04:15] <mhb> Jucato: I'd say you have the right to vote, even if you're not part of the Council
[04:16] <mhb> Jucato: even though only the Council votes count, I know :o)
[04:16] <apokryphos> I'm not sure popups would be the solution anyway
[04:16] <apokryphos> Jucato: being a member doesn't mean much :P
[04:16] <apokryphos> I think katapult should have it in its actual start-screen, but don't ask me how exactly that would be implemented ;-)
[04:17] <Riddell> Jucato: I'd welcome having a clickable help label next to the clickable menu on the UI that has a what's this type introduction to katapult
[04:17] <Riddell> anyway, main problem with katapult is lack of developers
[04:18] <Jucato> hm...
[04:42] <Tonio_> Riddell: I see your point of view, but my concern is how do people even know that katapult exists on a fresh install since it is invisible....
[04:56] <Riddell> Tonio_: same way people know about alt-f2
[05:00] <Riddell> :)
[05:00] <Riddell> I agree it's an issue, but I don't think annoying things that get in the way are the solution
[05:00] <Riddell> make KMenu->Run Command do something with katapult would be better
[05:00] <Tonio_> Riddell: I have another option, how about that :
[05:01] <Riddell> although that would annoy the alt-f2 hardcore users
[05:01] <Tonio_> UI is patched to give access to the conf, and gets a radio button to "disable popup at startup"
[05:01] <Tonio_> and we enable the popup
[05:01] <Riddell> nooo
[05:01] <Riddell> no default annoying popups
[05:01] <Riddell> that's totally un-ubuntu
[05:02] <Tonio_> so you want something that feets powerusers needs by default, and let the newbie unaware of what's going on ? ;)
[05:02] <Tonio_> to me ONE configuration thing to do for the poweruser isn't that bad....
[05:02] <Riddell> well it is a poweruser's tool
[05:02] <Tonio_> hum... in a certain way yes
[05:02] <Riddell> normal users have the k-menu
[05:03] <Tonio_> Riddell: then we should patch kdebluetooth for it's popup too :)
[05:03] <Riddell> I've not noticed a popup from it
[05:03] <Tonio_> you have a popup everytime you connect a bluetooth key
[05:03] <kwwii> but as long as certain programs which you install per gui are not startable in the menu, we need something else
[05:03] <Tonio_> so if bluetooth is embedded, you get the popup at every startup
[05:03] <kwwii> so, if it doesn't show up in the menu, it does not show up in katapult either
[05:04] <Riddell> kdebluetooth is not embedded by default, it's hidden
[05:04] <Tonio_> Riddell: the icon yes, but not the menu :)
[05:04] <Tonio_> not the popup sorry
[05:04] <Riddell> maybe that's not the case if you have bluetooth built in?
[05:04] <Tonio_> maybe....
[05:04] <Tonio_> I get the popup with my bluetooth key everytime
[05:05] <Riddell> so it happens when you plug in your bluetooth dongle?
[05:05] <Tonio_> yes
[05:05] <Tonio_> it lets me know a bluetooth device has been found, just tested
[05:05] <Riddell> that's fine, it's useful feedback in reponse to an action
[05:05] <Tonio_> but that's nice
[05:05] <Tonio_> you have bluetooth embedded right ?
[05:06] <Riddell> I've never used bluetooth in my life
[05:06] <Riddell> someone really should test it in feisty to make sure it's still working :)
[05:06] <Tonio_> Riddell: hehe, so to what I know, kdebluetooth popups you ANYTIME a device is found
[05:06] <Tonio_> even at startup
[05:06] <Tonio_> Riddell: just tested here it's okay
[05:06] <Riddell> groovy
[05:06] <Tonio_> but the problem is I'm certain it popups you when you have embedded bluetooth
[05:07] <seaLne> yep confirmed
[05:07] <Riddell> kwwii: katapult only shows apps that are in the k-menu, that's where it gets its list from
[05:07] <Tonio_> I would probably prefer to remove the popup and let the systray icon appear ONLY if a bluetooth device exists
[05:07] <Tonio_> how about that solution ?
[05:07] <Riddell> Tonio_: that sounds sensible
[05:07] <Tonio_> it's a standard one, that's the way windows and osx do
[05:08] <Tonio_> I'll look at the config since I'm not sure that's feasible
[05:08] <kwwii> actually, kde does not have any rights to use that logo (check the webpage, they are really picky about that)
[05:09] <Riddell> kwwii: ?
[05:09] <kwwii> although suse is a member
[05:09] <kwwii> the bluetooth logo is closed source
[05:09] <Riddell> oh, bluetooth logo?
[05:09] <kwwii> yepp
[05:09] <Riddell> la la la
[05:21] <Tonio_> kwwii: stupid...
[05:21] <kwwii> :-)
[05:21] <kwwii> no, big business
[05:21] <Tonio_> kwwii: heu, you talk about the K kind of bluetooth logo ?
[05:21] <kwwii> yepp
[05:21] <Tonio_> who did that one ? suse ?
[05:22] <Riddell> the kdebluetooth author made it
[05:22] <Riddell> arguably it's a violation of copyright and/or trademark
[05:22] <Riddell> and arguably it isn't
[05:23] <Tonio_> bah isn't kdebluetooth gpl licenced globally ?
[05:23] <Tonio_> I don't see the point
[05:23] <Tonio_> licences things are really annoying
[05:23] <Tonio_> do we have any right to use the msn or aol logos in kopete ? ;)
[05:27] <Tm_T> Tonio_: What logos? *whistle*
[05:28] <Riddell> Tonio_: arguably they breach copyright and/or trademark, but yes, it's much the same issue
[05:28] <Riddell> and I go on the side of they don't
[05:30] <Tonio_> sure
[05:31] <Tonio_> hard for me
[05:33] <Riddell> to do what?
[05:34] <Tonio_> Riddell: to open a nzb file on the command line
[05:34] <Tonio_> then I'll also provide a new kon search engine with the package
[05:34] <Tonio_> so that you can use it the same way you use ktorrent
[05:34] <Tonio_> better integration in fact
[05:34] <Tonio_> but generally not for legal stuff...... like ktorrent :)
[05:34] <manchicken> Riddell: While you're here, I need more stuff to do.
[05:34] <manchicken> Riddell: I'm getting bored without anything to do.
[05:34] <Riddell> oh, did Tonio_ upload that adept_batch patch?
[05:35] <Tonio_> Riddell: yes of course
[05:35] <manchicken> How will I have a weekend of hacking without anything to hack? *sob*
[05:35] <Riddell> groovy
[05:35] <Tonio_> Riddell: I also patchd kss for more subsections
[05:35] <Tonio_> that required to manage all kcm correctly
[05:35] <Tonio_> I'll send the patch to sebas for revuing
[05:36] <manchicken> I'd like to stick with smaller stuff for a little while until I'm more comfortable with C++.
[05:36] <manchicken> My comfort level with the STL is low.
[05:38] <Riddell> hmm
[05:38] <Riddell> nothing c++ish comes to mind
[05:38] <Riddell> various python things do
[05:39] <manchicken> Hmm...
[05:39] <Riddell> "Add changelog support to adept_updater."
[05:40] <manchicken> Oh, to give you a little blurb about what changed?
[05:40] <Riddell> "adept_installer should make use of the popularity data in the application .desktop files it reads."
[05:40] <manchicken> That would be nice.
[05:40] <manchicken> What is "popularity" data/
[05:40] <manchicken> How popular it is?
[05:40] <Riddell> yes
[05:40] <manchicken> Like, how often it's run?
[05:40] <manchicken> Or how often it's installed?
[05:41] <Riddell> tail /usr/share/app-install/desktop/gtm.desktop
[05:43] <Riddell> X-AppInstall-Popcon=16
[05:43] <Riddell> it's that bit
[05:43] <Riddell> gnome-app-install shows pretty stars to display how popular it is
[05:43] <Riddell> same thing in adept_installer would be cool
[05:43] <\sh> guys, did anyone saw this behaviour: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/wine/+bug/79265
[05:43] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 79265 in wine "WIne x-server crash on feisty" [Undecided,Needs info] 
[05:43] <Riddell> and changelog support is to show the new entries from the file at changelogs.ubuntu.com for the package in adept_installer
[05:43] <Riddell> update-tool already shows changelogs, I'm not sure of the UI but it's hidden by default
[05:44] <manchicken> Riddell: Ahhh...
[05:44] <Riddell> changelog data is developer orientated, not intended for the user, but some people find it handy
[05:44] <manchicken> That could be neet.
[05:45] <Riddell> and it only shows the changelog entries since the currently installed version
[05:45] <manchicken> Well, maybe we could have a little question mark icon next to packages that have changelog data, and when you click it it loads it.
[05:46] <Tonio_> Riddell: can you remind me of the kopete bug ? I'll post comments according to my tests
[05:47] <Riddell> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140307 ?
[05:47] <Ubugtu> KDE bug 140307 in general "Kopete's balloon stops working with 3.5.6" [Normal,New] 
[05:47] <Riddell> thanks Ubugtu
[05:47] <Tonio_> Riddell: I would say that the bug is in kwin, since it happened when I upgraded kwin
[05:47] <Tonio_> but I don't understand that it didn't work with kde 3.5.6 and kwin 3.5.5
[05:47] <Tonio_> that doesn't make sense to me....
[05:47] <Riddell> lubos just said "r626522 (kdelibs). Oh, and it's no KWin bug. It's Kopete bug, basically."
[05:49] <manchicken> Riddell: I'm willing to implement features that go back upstream too if you need me to.  I'd just like to stick with C++ for a little while until I'm a little more comfortable with it.
[05:49] <manchicken> Riddell: I do scripting languages all day long at work, I'm having a lot of fun playing with C++ ^_^
[05:50] <Riddell> popularity can go upstream.  not sure if debian has changelogs available but they may well do
[05:50] <manchicken> Righto.
[05:50] <manchicken> Do you have a spec for this, or is there any more information on it/
[05:51] <Riddell> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuFeistyAdeptChanges
[05:51] <Riddell> but mostly, look at gnome-app-install and upgrade-tool and copy that :)
[05:52] <manchicken> Ack, I didn't see it there.
[05:52] <manchicken> That's what I get for only looking at use cases ;)
[05:55] <Tonio_> Riddell: how about the repo manager, will that be done too ?
[05:55] <Tonio_> talking about wine, shouldn't we associate .exe files to it when installed ?
[05:56] <Tonio_> that would make sense in my opinion
[05:56] <Riddell> Tonio_: should do, the gnome author said a couple weeks ago he was working on making it more frontend independent, not sure if that's available yet or not
[06:03] <manchicken> Riddell: I still don't think it's unreasonable to reinvent that wheel.  The port is going to be painful.
[06:03] <manchicken> Very painful.
[06:03] <manchicken> At least from what I could see.
[06:03] <manchicken> Especially since I couldn't get Qt Designer to import those glade files.
[06:05] <Riddell> err, it won't import glade files
[06:05] <Riddell> they need to be remade
[06:05] <manchicken> Yeah.
[06:06] <manchicken> That leads me to believe that it could be considerably difficult to port that software-properties program.
[06:06] <manchicken> It seems to me that it'd be easier to implement it in adept.
[06:07] <manchicken> But I'm merely a chicken on all of this stuff.  ^_^
[08:11] <manchicken> Always scary when you get libc6 updates.
[08:13] <nixternal> no what is scary is the pasta they serve here at school
[08:13] <manchicken> Another reason to be glad I dropped out of college ;)
[08:14] <nixternal> haha
[08:17] <manchicken> I'm not a big fan of academia.  Seeking knowledge for knowledge's sake just seems kinda boring to me.
[08:18] <manchicken> I'd much rather learn something in the course of solving a problem.
[08:19] <nixternal> that is what both of my courses are today pretty much
[08:19] <manchicken> That's cool.  I know lots of folks who love school.  I just never really did.
[08:20] <nixternal> i definitely don't love it, but it is free, so I am going to try and learn some new stuff
[08:20] <manchicken> Free makes a difference.
[08:20] <manchicken> I wouldn't mind taking some courses, but I have no interested in taking courses that graduation requirements dictate.
[08:21] <nixternal> ya, i had to take a couple of very basic programming courses at first which was nuts
[08:21] <manchicken> The college I went to tried to get me to take an ethics course.  I went to it for the first few weeks and found that their ethics were in grave conflict with mine.
[08:22] <nixternal> same with a Linux course. Intro to Linux. I spent the whole class working on Kubuntu stuff
[08:22] <manchicken> Heh.
[08:22] <manchicken> I remember taking C as a highschool senior.
[08:23] <manchicken> I've been playing with C since I was 12.
[08:23] <manchicken> I ended up spending the whole 2 hour class correcting the prof and helping my classmates.
[08:23] <manchicken> Profs don't like to be corrected ;)
[08:23] <manchicken> That's why they should make sure their examples are correct BEFORE class.
[08:23] <nixternal> heh, when I was a highschooler you either took Basic, Data Processing, or you would learn assembly, cobol, and fortan in robotics shop
[08:24] <nixternal> 10 Print "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA"
[08:24] <nixternal> 20 Goto 10
[08:24] <manchicken> heh
[08:24] <nixternal> ;)
[08:24] <nixternal> basic loops rock
[08:24] <nixternal> thank god for scroll lock
[08:24] <manchicken> Mmm... global scope and spaghetti code ^_^
[08:25] <nixternal> i am getting ready to do some spaghetti code it seems in my next class
[08:25] <manchicken> Mmm... spaghetti.
[08:26] <nixternal> nothing better than sitting in the cafe and listening to a 100 systems play the killer Windows startup music
[08:26] <manchicken> Nice.
[10:44] <mhb> hi LongPointyStick :o)
[10:51] <Dink> Is there an entry in launchpad for the adept manger ... upgrade wizard bug when you click on fetch updates ??
[11:10] <jeroenvrp> most original question of the day: can feisty allready be used for normal daily work (desktop)?!
[11:10] <jeroenvrp> in other words: should I upgrade?
[11:14] <gnomefreak> jeroenvrp: no
[11:14] <jeroenvrp> gnomefreak: than I wont do it yet
[11:14] <gnomefreak> jeroenvrp: not anywhere near stable enough.
[11:16] <jeroenvrp> thanks gnomefreak for your answers, I will follow the devolopment and wait for the right time to step in