[03:20] <coreyt> what is s.u.c.
[03:21] <jjesse> ??
[03:25] <LaserJock> I would guess screenshots.ubuntu.com
[03:26] <LaserJock> screencasts.ubuntu.com rather
[08:28] <popey> 3
[08:28] <popey> bah
[09:54] <LaserJock> mdke: you genius
[09:55] <mdke> ?
[09:57] <mdke> I mean, obviously, but why in particular?
[09:57] <LaserJock> I'm talking with Revell ATM ;-)
[09:57] <mdke> about?
[09:57] <mdke> MOTU contact?
[10:01] <LaserJock> mhm
[10:02] <LaserJock> mdke: "I
[10:04] <LaserJock> "I own Matt East a pint :)"
[10:05] <LaserJock> yeah, we are talking Englishmen not Canadians, shesh ;-)
[10:06] <mdke> heh
[10:08] <mdke> tell him I'll waive the pint if he fixes my faq bug
[10:08] <mdke> cya
[07:56] <mpt> yo mdke, I'm bemused at your changes to HelpAndSupportAccess
[07:56] <mdke> mpt: ask away. I removed a couple of things that were inaccurate
[07:56] <mdke> iirc
[07:58] <mpt> first, I find it clearer if short adjective phrases use dashes
[07:58] <mpt> For comparison, <http://www.google.com/search?q=%22two-+or+three-word%22> shows some examples using dashes, some not
[07:59] <mdke> mpt: ok, I'm not going to challenge that
[08:00] <mdke> the other bit in line 13 I removed because it's not true, tooltips appear when the mouse is stationary over the menu item; and you don't have to close and reopen the submenu to get tooltips for different menu items
[08:00] <mpt> oh, I didn't see that change
[08:01] <mdke> line 22 is self explanatory, right?
[08:01] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpAndSupportAccess?action=diff
[08:01] <mdke> and line 40 is cosmetic only
[08:02] <mpt> Tooltips appearing when the mouse is stationary over the menu item == requiring scrubbing
[08:04] <mpt> it looks like you need to wait for 1 second on each
[08:04] <mdke> is that a technical term? to be scrubbing involves moving backwards and forwards quickly
[08:04] <mdke> be/me*
[08:04] <mdke> I misunderstood I guess
[08:05] <mdke> like scrubbing the floor
[08:05] <mpt> http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:K2_sRkQ6yKQJ:www.drunkenblog.com/drunkenblog-archives/000697.html+%22a+scrubbing+interface%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1
[08:06] <mdke> so it does mean moving backwards and forwards?
[08:07] <mpt> well, it means that you have to hover over something to see what it is
[08:07] <mpt> so you have to scrub back and forth to find the right thing
[08:07] <mpt> I guess it's not the greatest term
[08:07] <mdke> ok, my bad. Maybe you can readd it without using the word "scrub"? :)
[08:08] <mdke> or I can
[08:08] <mdke> since I removed it :(
[08:09] <mpt> no worries, I'll fix it
[08:09] <mpt> oh, and on a completely different subject
[08:21] <mpt> was "Exit" ever a submenu?
[08:22] <mdke> mpt: not to my knowledge, but it is quite similar to the control center effect now
[08:23] <mpt> ok
[08:23] <mpt> If it had been, that would be relevant
[08:23] <mpt> Otherwise I don't think we should be using the Quit dialog as a good example of anything :-)
[08:23] <mdke> ok
[10:11] <LaserJock> why?
[10:12] <mdke> thinking about translations
[10:12] <mdke> nixternal: are you here by any chance?
[10:15] <nixternal> mdke: I am in class right now, I will be back online at about 2300 UTC
[10:16] <mdke> nixternal: hmm. I ought to go to bed early, I'll try you tomorrow
[10:16] <mdke> or email
[10:19] <nixternal> email will rock!
[10:47] <LaserJock> mdke: is the packaging guide still being shipped?
[10:47] <mdke> LaserJock: I'll look
[10:47] <mdke> not currently
[10:48] <tonyyarusso> I tried viewing it yesterday, and it said the link was broken / file didn't exist
[10:49] <mdke> tonyyarusso: being shipped is a different thing to being on the website. Although in this case, perhaps the latter is broken
[10:49] <LaserJock> mdke: if we keep it that way can I maintian it trunk?
[10:49] <tonyyarusso> mdke: I mean in the system help on Feisty.
[10:49] <LaserJock> i.e. no string freeze for me
[10:49] <tonyyarusso> in yelp
[10:50] <mdke> LaserJock: it's up to you. What do you want to do with it? Perhaps we could do a standalone package?
[10:50] <LaserJock> I was thinking about that
[10:50] <LaserJock> I'm finding that I really shouldn't make it release specific
[10:51] <mdke> that's ok, but it's nice for people to be able to use it on their system if they want
[10:51] <LaserJock> yes, so I would propose a seperate package that I release like Debian docs
[10:51] <mdke> tonyyarusso: ok, can you file a bug? you shouldn't have a linK!
[10:51] <LaserJock> sort of as needed
[10:51] <LaserJock> I can't find a link to it
[10:52] <LaserJock> I think if it wasn't tied to the release schedule I could get more contribution when there are slower times for the devs
[10:52] <tonyyarusso> mdke: Will do, in a minute.  btw, here's the exact text I got when clicking "Running Server Applications":
[10:52] <tonyyarusso> The Uniform Resource Identifier file:///usr/share/ubuntu-docs/xml/C/serverguide/serverguide.xml is invalid or does not point to an actual file.
[10:52] <mdke> tonyyarusso: Oh, server? that's fine
[10:52] <mdke> tonyyarusso: file a bug anyway, but we were talking about the packaging guide
[10:52] <LaserJock> and it would also give me an oppritunity to make it a better online resource
[10:53] <tonyyarusso> mdke: Aaah, okay.
[10:53] <LaserJock> which I think it the most common use for the packaging guide
[10:53] <tonyyarusso> mdke: Why is the packaging guide not going to be there now?
[10:53] <LaserJock> it doesn't really fit in with the rest of the docs, IMO
[10:54] <mdke> tonyyarusso: i'll leave LaserJock to explain, I've got too many damn windows
[10:54] <LaserJock> :-)
[10:54] <tonyyarusso> lol
[10:55] <LaserJock> tonyyarusso: do you want more?
[10:55] <tonyyarusso> LaserJock: sure
[10:55] <LaserJock> heh
[10:55] <LaserJock> well, as we are moving to TBH the packaging guide has a hard time fitting in
[10:55] <LaserJock> and packaging is a rather advanced topic
[10:56] <LaserJock> I wouldn't mind contributing some little "How to rebuild a source package" topic or something like that
[10:56] <LaserJock> but as a comprehensive guide to packaging in Ubuntu it just doesn't seem like the appropriate place
[10:56] <mdke> it's more of an online/standalone thing
[10:57] <LaserJock> the vast majority of packaging guide readers that I've come across read it online or print it out
[10:57] <LaserJock> even when I mention "it's in the help system" they are like "cool, but I'd rather read it online"
[10:58] <LaserJock> so while it's kind of a novelty (even mentioned in a magazine review of Ubuntu) it's sort of out of place
[10:58] <tonyyarusso> Could it be done such that you could apt-get packaging-guide say and then have it show up in yelp henceforth, for people who want it there?
[10:59] <tonyyarusso> I agree it was out of place for most users before - I once had someone read part of that instead of how to use synaptic.  (....)
[10:59] <tonyyarusso> I'd rather not have to read things online, since I might want to while I don't have a connection.
[11:02] <LaserJock> yes, that's how I plan on doing it I think is a seperate package
[11:02] <mdke> we'll do that with the server guide too
[11:02] <LaserJock> but I think the focus should be on online/print presentation
[11:02] <mdke> tonyyarusso: we can't include it in the yelp table of contents easily
[11:02] <tonyyarusso> mdke: dang
[11:03] <LaserJock> it seems to be hard to do well with both "system help" and "online help"
[11:03] <tonyyarusso> mdke: Separate help menu entry?
[11:03] <LaserJock> I hope not
[11:04] <LaserJock> for now can't it go under "other documentation"?
[11:04] <tonyyarusso> Only if you installed it of course, not defaults.  Just picturing how this might end up looking for me.
[11:04] <mdke> there won't be an "other documentation"
[11:04] <tonyyarusso> I don't have an "other"
[11:05] <LaserJock> mdke: where will that stuff go?
[11:05] <tonyyarusso> Meanwhile, I question arranging yelp alphabetically.  Shouldn't "New to Ubuntu?" be higher up?
[11:05] <mdke> it'll be searchable, and the relevant ones will hopefully be linked from relevant pages
[11:06] <mdke> tonyyarusso: that's just a temporary thing. We have an order in mind
[11:06] <LaserJock> so useful documentation will be installed on the user's computer but they won't be able to see it?
[11:06] <tonyyarusso> ah, good
[11:06] <LaserJock> sometimes yelp is just ... frustrating
[11:06] <mdke> LaserJock: define useful
[11:06] <LaserJock> installed
[11:06] <mdke> you mean Gnome documentation XSLT Manual?
[11:06] <mdke> or Linux NAT Howto?
[11:07] <LaserJock> right now I have CUPs, gai, synaptic and those yeah
[11:07] <LaserJock> my point being, they might not be what we want to present to the user right away
[11:07] <mdke> right, so those useful ones can be linked
[11:07] <LaserJock> but surely it should be discoverable
[11:07] <mdke> probably not cups actually
[11:08] <LaserJock> well, that's sad, but not your fault
[11:08] <mdke> well, it's my fault in that I'm totally behind choosing to get rid of it
[11:08] <LaserJock> well, I think it's kinda bad form to go getting rid of docs that authors have put a lot of time into
[11:09] <LaserJock> just because they aren't "our" docs
[11:09] <mdke> LaserJock: no offense, but Linux NAT Howto is not desktop help
[11:09] <LaserJock> who cares if it's desktop help
[11:09] <mdke> it's probably great, but it's not going to help our users much
[11:09] <LaserJock> "desktop" help isn't the only help
[11:09] <tonyyarusso> Shouldn't we be able to read things that aren't desktop help in a more friendly form than with less?
[11:09] <LaserJock> just as desktop packages aren't the only packages on a machine
[11:09] <mdke> you can read em, just open them with yelp
[11:10] <mdke> or search for them
[11:10] <mdke> name me one person that has opened their help system and gone "oh wow, Linux Nat Howto, I'll read that in the help system, because it's probably right up to date with the online version"
[11:10] <tonyyarusso> that seems odd though.  Normally you'd at least be able to make some sort of crapbin section to stuff them into
[11:10] <LaserJock> I do that!
[11:10] <LaserJock> that's the only reason I use the help
[11:10] <mdke> LaserJock: you've got some issues
[11:11] <mdke> go read the online version, it's much more likely to be up tod ate
[11:11] <LaserJock> because the stuff we ship is pretty trivial
[11:11] <mdke> anyway, we need to take care of people who can't find the help first
[11:11] <LaserJock> it's important for user for sure
[11:11] <tonyyarusso> I can't, but I can name myself as someone who's read docs in less or Firefox, and said dang I wish this were prettier and/or accessible offline
[11:11] <LaserJock> mdke: I agree
[11:11] <mdke> people like you guys can type "linux nat" into the help box
[11:11] <tonyyarusso> Four and a half months of the year I am _unable_ to read documentation online.  It wouldn't be fair to my family.
[11:12] <LaserJock> actually I just surf around for that stuff
[11:12] <LaserJock> I don't use the search box
[11:12] <LaserJock> but maybe that's my problem :-)
[11:13] <tonyyarusso> Usually I only use search boxes if I don't really know what I want.  I'm used to being able to just find it.  If I have to search, it usually means something bad, either on my end or the docs'/site's
[11:13] <LaserJock> anyway, I know where you are coming from mdke
[11:14] <mdke> hope so
[11:14] <LaserJock> the current view in that sidebar is not so great
[11:14] <mdke> you'll like it when you see it
[11:14] <LaserJock> I just feel like we are pushing down the software authors to achieve our goals
[11:14] <tonyyarusso> Yeah, I do too - I just think it's one step too far.  I _should_ be tucked away somewhat, so it doesn't provide clutter / confusion for most users, but should still be available in a submenu or something for convenience, imo.
[11:14] <LaserJock> like there should be a "see all documentation" button or something
[11:16] <LaserJock> mdke: well, I comes down to I trust you. :-)
[11:17] <LaserJock> I have my reservations, but I trust that you ( and mpt too) know more about what our users need than me
[11:18] <mdke> we could make an "advanced documentation" topic which links the users to the GNU Info/Man pages and your precious Linux Nat Howto, I guess
[11:18] <mdke> i would consider it a bad idea though, myself
[11:18] <tonyyarusso> Why?
[11:19] <mdke> because the newer users would click on it hoping for inspiration, and would get gibberish
[11:19] <LaserJock> well, I think the search thing will eventually be the way to go anyway
[11:19] <LaserJock> people who don't really know what to search for will need guidance
[11:19] <tonyyarusso> What new user clicks something labelled "Advanced"?  Most get scared and run away.
[11:19] <LaserJock> they all click it :-)
[11:20] <LaserJock> people are curious
[11:20] <mdke> tonyyarusso: no, I disagree, it sounds like it means you can do cool things. Also, even a user who has mastered the rest of the topics is going to be put off by man pages
[11:20] <tonyyarusso> hmm
[11:20] <tonyyarusso> Is there another word we could use?
[11:20] <LaserJock> but it does seem like we could use some middle ground
[11:20] <mdke> tonyyarusso: "DON'T CLICK"
[11:20] <tonyyarusso> "Utterly terrifying hacker-speek!"
[11:20] <mdke> LaserJock: the middle ground is the search
[11:21] <LaserJock> does the search give any preference for doc names?
[11:21] <mdke> but Linux is trying to reach the world of real computer users, and I think we should too. The days of providing power linux users with man pages is in the past, at least for Ubuntu, IMHO
[11:22] <tonyyarusso> Now that's where I lose you.
[11:22] <tonyyarusso> Absolutely we should be reaching out to less experienced users.
[11:22] <tonyyarusso> But why does that mean we have to tell the experienced linux users to shut up and use Gentoo instead?
[11:22] <mdke> because they are 0.01% of the market?
[11:22] <mdke> maybe less
[11:23] <mdke> anyway, that's not what we're telling them to do
[11:23] <tonyyarusso> So?  We don't actually lose anything by it.
[11:23] <mdke> gentoo users don't use Yelp for reading man pages either, they type "man whatever", like Ubuntu power linux users
[11:23] <tonyyarusso> It seems like it, if you start removing options from the documentation.
[11:23] <LaserJock> we are saying "we think you are smart enough to use the search" :-)
[11:23] <mdke> tonyyarusso: we do lose something by it, we lose a help system that is nice for the 99.9%, like other operating systems will do
[11:24] <Burgwork> man and info pages are written almost to assume you already know the tool and just need a reminder of what switches are there
[11:24] <tonyyarusso> mdke: Even by hiding it away?
[11:24] <Burgwork> they are very bad a telling you things like: I want to do X or Y
[11:24] <LaserJock> yes, but there is a lot of stuff besided man and info pages in there though
[11:24] <mpt> mdke, oh, *now* you're warming to "Advanced topics" :-P
[11:24] <LaserJock> I think the man and info shoudl could go, I really do
[11:24] <mdke> mpt: no, I was trying to placate the onslaught
[11:24] <LaserJock> :-)
[11:25] <mpt> in which I think one of the subsections should be "Reference manuals (man)"
[11:25] <mdke> mpt: anyway, your advanced topics is not the sort of thing they're talking about
[11:25] <mdke> it doesn't even mention Linux NAT Howto
[11:26] <mdke> or Gnome Documentation XSLT Reference Manual
[11:26] <LaserJock> I know there is some really useful documentation in there and I think it's a shame to take that away from people
[11:26] <mpt> I don't know what a NAT is, except that it's something to do with networking and IP addresses
[11:26] <LaserJock> but, I think the search function is probably a good middle ground there
[11:26] <mpt> I'm sure it's important, because Ekiga screams at me about it during setup
[11:26] <mdke> mpt: oh, then it *must* be important :)
[11:26] <mpt> :-P
[11:27] <mpt> Actually, what I'd love
[11:27] <mpt> is for mdz to come along and say "the documentation is allowed to take up X MB on the CD, and no more"
[11:28] <LaserJock> maybe
[11:28] <mpt> Then once we'd reached that limit, for each new thing we'd have to discuss whether it was more helpful than something we were already including
[11:28] <LaserJock> I'd almost rather see the documentation not installed than it not be discoverable
[11:28] <tonyyarusso> mpt: For the things we're talking about I don't think it matters what's on the CD.  I'm happy to apt-get docs, I just want them easily accessible once I do.
[11:28] <mdke> mpt: most of the least useful documentation is installed with packages that are essential parts of the system
[11:28] <LaserJock> tonyyarusso: exactly
[11:29] <mpt> mdke, yes
[11:29] <mpt> but we can fix that
[11:29] <mpt> the GDP takes patches :-)
[11:29] <mdke> eventually
[11:29] <LaserJock> but gnome is not everything
[11:29] <mpt> Have they been slow in your experience? (I haven't tried, tbh)
[11:30] <mdke> nah, they're good
[11:30] <LaserJock> as tonyyarusso has brought up, we have lots and lots of packages in Universe with documentation
[11:30] <mdke> LaserJock: most of it isn't in Yelp though
[11:30] <LaserJock> a fair amount is
[11:30] <LaserJock> and I think more should be
[11:30] <mpt> LaserJock, if a package is graphical, it should have a Help menu/button that loads the help
[11:31] <mdke> well, if mallard happens then there will likely be a good way to integrate it
[11:31] <mpt> And if it's not, it should have a man page (which yelp should automatically pick up in the aforementioned "Reference manuals" section)
[11:31] <LaserJock> mpt: but we ship a lot of stuff that is neither
[11:31] <LaserJock> dive into python
[11:31] <LaserJock> debian policy
[11:32] <LaserJock> gtk tutorial
[11:32] <LaserJock> etc.
[11:32] <mpt> Dive Into Python, I would put in "Advanced topics" > "Writing your own programs"
[11:32] <LaserJock> it just seems a waste to have documentation available but not be able to get at it reasonably easily
[11:32] <mpt> same for gtk tutorial
[11:32] <mdke> mpt: you can't.
[11:32] <mpt> Debian policy, wtf are we doing shipping that?
[11:32] <mdke> the link will be broken if the package isn't installed
[11:32] <mpt> ah
[11:32] <LaserJock> mpt: heh, it's required for every package
[11:33] <mdke> hence the crapbin "Other DocumentatioN" that yelp uses
[11:33] <tonyyarusso> mpt: That would be lovely if there were those sections in yelp.
[11:33] <LaserJock> well, let me rephrase that
[11:33] <mdke> unless we create a new scrollkeeper category and amend all those packages to go into it
[11:33] <tonyyarusso> No way to update yelp links based on installed packages?  Or, even better, make it like discussed for file formats - if the link is broken it prompts you to install the package?
[11:33] <LaserJock> every package conforms to a specific version fo the Debian Policy
[11:33] <LaserJock> so we should provide what that policy is
[11:33] <mdke> oh, actually, there is x-yelp-toc:#ApplicationsProgramming
[11:33] <mdke> mpt: ^^
[11:34] <mdke> my bad
[11:34] <mdke> ok, let's do your sodding Advanced Topics
[11:34] <mdke> you think the server stuff should be hidden in there?
[11:35] <mpt> yep
[11:35] <mdke> that'll be tricky
[11:35] <mdke> unless it's a single entry
[11:36] <LaserJock> I almost think we'll have to do it mdke's way while we are still trapped with yelp
[11:36] <LaserJock> it seems aweful to try to mess around with it
[11:36] <mdke> I'm starting to come round to this advanced topics thing
[11:36] <LaserJock> :-)
[11:37] <LaserJock> I think I'm going to stay out of it
[11:37] <mdke> but I don't think "Other Documentation" can go in there, we can do programming stuff, GNU info, man pages and such.
[11:38] <mdke> all the other categories can be linked from other topics, like x-yelp-toc:#ApplicationsMultimedia and stuff
[11:38] <LaserJock> where will Desktop and Applications items go?
[11:40] <LaserJock> what do you mean by other topics?
[11:40] <mdke> the ones we have already
[11:40] <LaserJock> but there is more in there than what we have
[11:40] <mdke> suggestions welcome
[11:40] <LaserJock> so for example, where does Applications -> Scientific go?
[11:40] <mdke> let's just make 400 topics
[11:41] <LaserJock> no, no, I'm just trying to figure out the system
[11:41] <LaserJock> if it doesn't have a specific link it will get dropped out of TOC
[11:41] <dr-evil> four hundred BILLION topics!
[11:41] <LaserJock> and just be available as via search?
[11:41] <mdke> LaserJock: we've already done that to some of our own docs
[11:42] <LaserJock> but that's the way it will go, trying to confirm my understanding, not pick a fight ;-)
[11:43] <mdke> pending any better ideas
[11:43] <LaserJock> ok, well I'm fairly ok with it
[11:44] <LaserJock> a lot of those sections are pretty empty anyway, search is probably more effective than trying to hunt down which section things are under
[11:46] <LaserJock> ;-)