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[07:18] <troy_s> coz_ is quiet.
[07:19] <BHSPitMonkey> -you- are quiet.
[07:19] <BHSPitMonkey>        zing!
[07:20] <coz_> troy_s, sorry I was emailing someone
[07:20] <coz_> :)
[07:20] <troy_s> lol
[07:20] <troy_s> i have been at werk
[07:21] <troy_s> where the hell is TheSheep
[07:21] <troy_s> no development out of my end at all for the past few days.
[07:24] <coz_> troy_s, what development are you speaking of
[07:24] <troy_s> just random private bits of such and such
[07:24] <coz_> i see
[07:26] <coz_> so has anything changed at all for the ubuntu team?
[07:26] <troy_s> Not terribly important really.
[07:26] <coz_> have ny of you confronted shuttleworth
[07:26] <troy_s> Nothing to confront him on ;)
[07:26] <coz_> mm thats confusing
[07:27] <troy_s> The issues at hand simply aren't a priority for him.
[07:28] <coz_> ok I think we may be talking abou different issues. which issues are you referring ot/
[07:28] <coz_> to
[07:28] <troy_s> The art and design end of things...
[07:28] <coz_> troy_s, well of course not he is a programmer
[07:29] <troy_s> I don't exactly buy the 'discreet' archetypes approach.
[07:29] <coz_> mm
[07:29] <troy_s> I tend to think that abilities are very blurry -- society tends to put the labels on things.
[07:29] <troy_s> That said, the desire factor is certainly low.
[07:30] <troy_s> And therefore, the product of the energy is reflective of said desire -- generic drudge.
[07:30] <coz_> as i said...
[07:30] <coz_> so what is the point of the art team?
[07:30] <troy_s> There is no point.
[07:30] <troy_s> Other than to attempt and organize as you see fit
[07:31] <troy_s> and attempt to generate something that perhaps stands a hope of being less than generic sludge.
[07:31] <coz_> meaning
[07:31] <troy_s> Meaning it is a free world -- everyone has their ideas.
[07:31] <coz_> yes?
[07:31] <troy_s> Execution ultimately is the sword bearer.
[07:31] <coz_> ok?
[07:31] <troy_s> And by execution, I don't simply mean execution to achieve generic sludge.
[07:32] <troy_s> As a quick look at gnome-look would reveal about ten thousand 'themes' that are all practically identical.
[07:32] <coz_> troy_s, ok understood that...
[07:32] <troy_s> I believe it is up the individuals of the team to step up and put for progress of some form.
[07:32] <coz_> agreed
[07:33] <coz_> and how would that be organized
[07:33] <troy_s> I think if you ask a hundred people you might get a hundred different replies.
[07:33] <troy_s> Which ultimately leads to an eddy of nothingness.
[07:34] <coz_> ok troy_s how do you think it should be organized
[07:34] <troy_s> Well my background is a deeply rooted in process and documentation.
[07:34] <troy_s> So whenever I am creatively involved in projects, I tend to prod towards structure.
[07:34] <coz_> well that is a bit vague can you elaborate
[07:34] <troy_s> Erm ...
[07:35] <troy_s> Standard creative process type things.  Work from generalities to specifics over a course of time.
[07:35] <coz_> so  you see yourself a smore of a facilitator rather than an artist?
[07:35] <troy_s> Take a group of unrelated elements and attempt to join them / sort them / etc.
[07:36] <troy_s> Not exactly.  I just have seen well thought through and executed projects and haphazard ones.  I choose the former generally.
[07:37] <coz_> ok troy_s I am not as clear on what you would do though, I understand your words but am not clear on the specifics
[07:37] <troy_s> Depends on the project ultimately.
[07:38] <troy_s> When the project has a larger scope, it needs to be broken down into the smaller elements.
[07:38] <troy_s> Creatively speaking, I find it is far easier to discuss things with other like minded folks when you have a broad selection / scrapbook of material in front of you.
[07:39] <troy_s> So I almost always start with a scrapbooking approach for brainstorming.
[07:39] <coz_> and you would like to lead in this facilitaing proceedure
[07:39] <troy_s> God no.
[07:39] <coz_> ok
[07:40] <troy_s> Not interested.  Ultimately Ubuntu has no interest in being distinct nor innovative
[07:40] <troy_s> As a result, it is simply not at all interesting within my capacity.
[07:40] <coz_> really seems that is exatly what the approch was for ubuntu
[07:40] <troy_s> I don't require a job, I don't require the politics.
[07:40] <troy_s> Well... yes
[07:40] <troy_s> On one half I would completely agree with you
[07:41] <troy_s> In terms of design and scope of what the average user 'perceives' Ubuntu as being
[07:41] <troy_s> unfortunately, as soon as you get inside of this little ball of wax
[07:41] <troy_s> it becomes the battle of politics.  the kde / gnome dichotomy etc
[07:41] <troy_s> Completely irrelevant to the standard audience member.
[07:42] <troy_s> But again, point one -- Ubuntu has no target audience for its default design.
[07:42] <coz_> I am not sure it is irrelevant to them it is a preference at the very least in terms of kde and gnome
[07:42] <troy_s> It is rather like reading the GNOME human interface guidelines -- 'so that _all_ can ...' '_every_ can ...'
[07:42] <troy_s> complete fallacies.
[07:42] <troy_s> coz_ KDE and Gnome are completely irrelevant within the greater picture.
[07:43] <coz_> troy_s, so essentially, a larger plan interms of the "visuals" for ubuntu is needed
[07:43] <troy_s> if we end up driving a faction war based on superiority of desktops, the real war -- the need to get Free software into everyone's hands is completely missed.
[07:43] <troy_s> Absolutely
[07:43] <coz_> troy_s, well. with that I completely agree
[07:43] <troy_s> You can't cite lauded design attempts (for example, Apple) without citing their process.
[07:44] <troy_s> The acceptance of the design implications, the absolute attention to design issues, etc.
[07:44] <troy_s> The time, dedication, devotion, development, reworking, blah blah blah.
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[07:44] <troy_s> Those things don't come from a single fellow sitting down pushing splines and outputting wallpapers.
[07:44] <troy_s> It simply doesn't work that way.
[07:45] <coz_> troy_s, true but then no one has reallt been put in that position to decide on such a plan
[07:45] <troy_s> It takes a keen awareness of the diverse pieces, the overall game plan, and the execution of that plan.
[07:45] <troy_s> Indeed.
[07:45] <troy_s> As well as have the abilities to generate that directionality.
[07:45] <coz_> so therefore all of the "pixel pushers' as you say can be and have great minds for the organization of this
[07:45] <troy_s> Hard to say... there are many approaches.
[07:46] <troy_s> Many different ideas.
[07:46] <coz_> well the appraoches will be different naturally
[07:46] <troy_s> And perhaps ultimately, many different concepts of aesthetics and design directions.
[07:46] <coz_> of course
[07:47] <coz_> well no one pays the art team to develp anything as opposed to apple
[07:47] <troy_s> I think too, we are missing a good deal of people who can use a fecking pencil.
[07:47] <troy_s> It isn't exactly about payment.
[07:47] <coz_> ???
[07:47] <coz_> the pencil??
[07:48] <troy_s> Paying someone does not guarantee results -- as you can clearly see from the output of previous instances of the buntu clans.
[07:48] <troy_s> Yes.  I fear that not enough self proclaimed 'artists' can use a pencil.
[07:48] <coz_> lol troy_s well I have seen many who could not I kind of agree with you on that
[07:49] <troy_s> Perhaps utilize mixed media -- sculpture, paint, illustration, etc.
[07:49] <troy_s> Something that extends your mind to the spheres outside of the immediate target work.
[07:49] <coz_> troy_s, well my favorite mediums happen to be pencil and clay
[07:49] <troy_s> And perhaps lets you draw inspiration / directionality by bringing more of that to the table.
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[07:49] <troy_s> Yes, but you have an art degree don't you?
[07:49] <troy_s> ;)
[07:49] <coz_> yes
[07:50] <troy_s> It is one of the primary reasons that I value formal art training
[07:50] <troy_s> of the BFA variety
[07:50] <troy_s> it forces you to get your hands dirty as well as learn history and theory
[07:50] <troy_s> all of which is currently missing in this world.
[07:50] <coz_> troy_s, well I have seen many great artists who werenot educated
[07:50] <troy_s> Indeed, but that tends to be the exception rather than the rule.
[07:50] <coz_> troy_s, formal education can also be an obstruction
[07:51] <troy_s> Most people who have a vested interest in their craft tend to take it seriously enough to achieve a certain level of education.
[07:51] <troy_s> Obstructions -- again -- exceptions to the rule.
[07:51] <troy_s> If I had to say of all the folks that I know in the creative sphere with a great deal of power -- _all_ of them have degrees.
[07:52] <troy_s> Again, that culmination of practice, theory, and analysis apparently pays off on some level.
[07:52] <coz_> well thats not because of the education but the paper it is printed on
[07:52] <troy_s> Not quite following you on that one.
[07:53] <coz_> well people in positions of power who are in the field are not there because of the education they have or their abilities but rather the paper that the degree is printed on
[07:53] <coz_> at least to get into the door
[07:53] <troy_s> coz_ completely disagree with you on that one :)
[07:54] <troy_s> They are there because they are very good at their craft -- reflected by their 'rounding' of their resume.
[07:54] <coz_> well my experience says it is true i have seen it not just in the art field but many others as well
[07:55] <coz_> I would prefer tos ee thier portfolio not their resume
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[07:55] <troy_s> I generally like to see both.
[07:56] <coz_> troy_s, well if I were hiring someone i woul d not go by degree only by portfolio
[07:56] <troy_s> Having a great portfolio is one thing, being able to think outside the box is almost always directly related to an academic discussion area.
[07:57] <coz_> troy_s, well not exactly in my experience... people can talk a great line but cannot produce
[07:57] <troy_s> And of course, 'great' is a relative term.
[07:57] <coz_> so is blue
[07:57] <troy_s> Indeed.
[07:58] <coz_> it is the person that can transform blue into awe that is more important than if they can describe blue
[07:58] <troy_s> I would argue that if they were painting with it, they were in fact describing it.
[07:58] <troy_s> But alas, that is a tad flakey speek for this forum ;)
[07:58] <coz_> interesting perspective
[07:59] <troy_s> And again, 'awe' -- "one man's meat is another man's poison"
[07:59] <troy_s> All just silly terms that are probably more rooted in cultural shifts than those lovely terms 'raw ability' and such.
[07:59] <coz_> again I disagree I am not an artist that believes art is subjective
[07:59] <troy_s> Timely and adept execution.
[08:00] <troy_s> coz_ then we probably sit on completely opposite ends of the polemical spectrum.
[08:00] <troy_s> Art, like everything else in this real world, is relative.
[08:00] <coz_> well the term subjective as applied to art is mainly from art dealers of that past
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[08:00] <coz_> they coined a term
[08:00] <troy_s> Subject to something called the 'general theory of relativity'
[08:00] <troy_s> whereby _everything_ in the world is relative except for the speed of light.
[08:00] <troy_s> ;)
[08:01] <coz_> well not applicable
[08:01] <troy_s> In fact, dare I say that your aesthetic
[08:01] <troy_s> is completely different from someone outside your country of origin
[08:01] <troy_s> etc.
[08:01] <troy_s> absolutely applicable.
[08:01] <troy_s> I unfortunately, must prepare myself for my lovely day's work tomorrow
[08:01] <coz_> well lets leave it at that then
[08:01] <troy_s> and must depart from this very artsy discussion.
[08:01] <troy_s> ;)
[08:02] <troy_s> When you find the single piece of art that everyone agrees is absolutely beautiful, I'll perhaps believe you.
[08:02] <troy_s> Perhaps even find a good term for 'what is art' even, as a starting point.
[08:03] <troy_s> Night coz_... nice seeing you here to chat
[08:03] <troy_s> You often pop on and pop off too fast for me to catch you.
[08:04] <coz_> well i come here at the times you suggested an still no one talks :)
[08:15] <troy_s> coz_ I guess it depends on who is on at the time
[08:16] <troy_s> Sometimes just idling in a channel will let you keep up with when the chittering starts.
[08:16] <troy_s> Although again, #u-a doesn't have much to chitter about at the moment, nor the forseeable future.
=== troy_s is out.  Night.
[08:17] <coz_> well we amy disagree with our perspectives but unles the artist talk it will die
[08:19] <msikma> troy_s: by the way, if you have feedback for those screenshots I showed you yesterday, feel free to pass it on to me
[08:19] <msikma> Like I said on MSN, they're more like doodles
[08:23] <coz_> msikma, may I see them as well/
[08:31] <msikma> sure. they're simple implementations of the "wood" idea that has been proposed for Ubun2. I made then while I was working on cleaning up the source file for a theme that I'm working on.
[08:31] <msikma> http://www.gamingw.net/pubaccess/28695/ubun2_1.jpg
[08:31] <msikma> http://www.gamingw.net/pubaccess/28695/ubun2_0.jpg
[08:31] <coz_> msikma, thank you:)
[08:32] <coz_> msikma, these are proposed themes?
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[08:34] <msikma> nope, those screenshots are just things I came up with yesterday and the theme that I was working on isn't finished yet. I think I once proposed an early version of it as update to Human.
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[10:53] <kwwii> msikma's wood stuff looks awesome
[10:53] <sfllaw> Indeed.
[10:53] <sfllaw> kwwii just showed it to me.
[10:53] <sfllaw> Apricot has great borders.
[11:08] <sfllaw> http://www.jwz.org/images/1912007101138.jpg
[11:09] <kwwii> spooky
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[08:10] <coz_> afternoon all
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[10:37] <coz_> taking a break guys, :)
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