[12:26] <LaserJock> mdke!
[12:26] <mdke> ello
[12:27] <mdke> fill me in on the goss
[12:27] <LaserJock> dude, for some reason the packaging guide is broken on doc.ubuntu.com
[12:27] <mdke> right, is it ok in the Makefile?
[12:35] <LaserJock> mdke: well, I don't know but it validates
[12:35] <LaserJock> let me check
[12:35] <mdke> it's probably not even in the Makefile, I guess
[12:36] <dsas> hmm, shouldn't the java installation stuff just be "enable multiverse, install packages x,y,z" rather than the long instructions we have now?
[12:36] <mdke> dsas: probably, where's the long bit?
[12:37] <dsas> in programming.xml
[12:37] <dsas> it's got instructions that talk about visiting the sun website etc
[12:45] <nixternal> LaserJock: it builds fine on the Kubuntu side
[12:45] <nixternal> or at least it did
[12:46] <nixternal> http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/packagingguide/
[12:56] <LaserJock> nixternal: is the packaging guide still shipped in kubuntu-docs?
[12:58] <nixternal> yes
[01:07] <LaserJock> nixternal: ubuntu-docs doesn't
[01:13] <nixternal> well, we can remove it if necessary
[01:48] <LaserJock> nixternal: that would be lovely ;-)
[02:39] <nixternal> OK, so remove the PG from the Kubuntu docs, how about the Server Guide, is this still going to be packaged with Kubuntu docs?
[02:40] <LaserJock> not sure
[02:40] <LaserJock> maybe you should email the list
[02:40] <LaserJock> I think I'm going to make a separate package for the packaging guide
[03:17] <CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3719 kubuntu/C/internet/internet.xml: Kubuntu Internet content added
[03:32] <nixternal> here we go with the stupid d c c attacks
[03:53] <somerville32> :] 
[04:21] <coreyt> Opinion Please.  Would it be better to create a new ubuntu focused distro for a network management server or something like automatix to put one together from a server install.
[04:22] <dsas> something like automatix is never good.
[04:23] <coreyt> So in that sense you are probably against CNR for Ubuntu when it comes out in a few months?
[04:23] <dsas> coreyt: Probably. Haven't read about it yet.
[04:23] <dsas> coreyt: What do you need to do to create  a "network management server" that Ubuntu doesn't do already?
[04:24] <coreyt> I'm talking about something that can easily get Nagios, Cacti and other network management apps working quickly.
[04:24] <coreyt> Nagios is  pain to configure.  It's 2.x and Ubuntu's are 1.x
[04:25] <coreyt> In fact I've ran into Perl CPAN dependency hell.
[04:25] <crimsun> !nagios2 feisty
[04:25] <coreyt> lol
[04:25] <crimsun> err, sorry, wrong channel.
[04:26] <crimsun> the fact of the matter is that nagios2 certainly exists in 7.04.
[04:26] <coreyt> I wont set up anything unless it's on 6.06.
[04:26] <crimsun> ask for a backport to dapper, then.
[04:26] <coreyt> ah nagios2.. I may have missed it :)
[04:28] <coreyt> yeah I wish people would maintain package updates better.
[04:28] <coreyt> Of course then you have people who tinker with the app so a update may break things :)
[05:33] <nixternal> eww CNR ;p
[05:33] <LaserJock> now, now
[05:33] <nixternal> I read that CNR offers its users Firefox 1.5
[05:33] <nixternal> haha
[05:33] <nixternal> CNR == Crap Nobody Reallywants
[05:34] <nixternal> :)
[05:35] <LaserJock> well, I do wonder if that kind of idea is the way of the future
[05:38] <nixternal> it could be, but I don't want to be a part of it
[05:38] <LaserJock> heh
[05:39] <LaserJock> you've seen how hard it is to maintain packages
[05:39] <nixternal> same with the composite stuff as it stands, it is a great thing to draw people in, I don't like and probably won't use it, but it is something we could probably use
[05:40] <nixternal> LaserJock: remember with CNR who knows who is maintaining the packages, plus if they are offering Firefox 1.5 for their users, they aren't doing a good enough job of maintaining
[05:40] <LaserJock> well sure
[05:40] <LaserJock> that's why I don't like it right now
[05:40] <LaserJock> but in the future I wonder
[05:40] <nixternal> no need for a CNR MOTU when we have you and crimsun  :)
[05:41] <LaserJock> a big problem I see is that Ubuntu is so far removed from the software authors
[05:41] <nixternal> you never know. People pushed and pushed for Automatix and Easy Ubuntu, but after realising they are garbage, nobody is pushing for it anymore
[05:41] <nixternal> I have noticed that as well concerning the upstream authors
[05:42] <LaserJock> the only way I could see us doing better is by actually doing the distribution at the author level
[05:42] <nixternal> I would love to help out more, but it seems stuff I have done gets put off because everyone is busy.
[05:42] <nixternal> and it annoys me at times
[05:43] <LaserJock> where?
[05:43] <nixternal> I have been packaging stuff local here for Edgy and haven't done much Feisty stuff since last month probably
[05:43] <nixternal> some of my merges or synch requests that I have filed
[05:44] <nixternal> they go unanswered for a month or so and usually end up being rejected because something newer has come out in the mean time
[05:44] <nixternal> it is of course nobodies fault, and that is the one bad thing about MOTU. there aren't enough of them
[05:44] <LaserJock> it's definately an issue
[05:45] <LaserJock> I'm not really sure what we're going to do
[05:45] <nixternal> I swear, I would owe crimsun a million dollars if he charged me $5 for every packaging question/help that I have received from him
[05:45] <LaserJock> yep
[05:45] <nixternal> as a matter of fact, I would say 90% of my work has been uploaded by him, with Riddell doing a few for me as well
[05:46] <nixternal> my goal for Feisty was to make MOTU, but as it seems that will have to wait for Feisty+1
[05:46] <LaserJock> oh, I don't know, there's still quite a bit of time
[05:46] <nixternal> as I need some funky key signing now, and the time to work ratio has shrunk, leaving me with a lot of doc work left to do
[05:46] <LaserJock> yeah
[05:47] <nixternal> tomorrow and Sunday are my free days now as I am doing the school thing for 12 hours a day Monday - Friday
[05:48] <LaserJock> I think some of our problem is as MOTU have been sucked into the Ubuntu community they get involved in other teams
[05:48] <LaserJock> and pretty soon they have very little time for MOTU work
[05:48] <nixternal> or they just disappear
[05:49] <LaserJock> well, but that will occur in any team
[05:49] <nixternal> true
[05:49] <LaserJock> but it seems kinda prominent in MOTU right now
[05:49] <nixternal> I have stuck it out for a year so far, and the only thing burning me right now is the LoCo stuff
[05:50] <nixternal> I don't see myself leaving Kubuntu anytime soon. I am KDE for a long time and Kubuntu is the best there is if you ask me
[05:50] <nixternal> Mepis is good, but it just has better artwork I think
[05:51] <nixternal> Slackware, it would take a lot for me to go back to it now after getting so used to Debian
[05:51] <nixternal> ya, plus I forgot I am on a couple of KDE teams now, one being KDE documentation for KDE 4 and KOffice 2 now
[05:52] <nixternal> hell, they even gave me server access and all that good stuff
[05:52] <LaserJock> cool
[05:53] <LaserJock> my problem is I don't want to "pick" KDE or Gnome
[05:55] <crimsun> nixternal: well, thankfully I won't be monopolizing the sponsorship. There are a handful stepping up now.
[05:56] <nixternal> hehe
[05:56] <nixternal> next time you are in Chicago, I need my key signed, so when my day comes I will be covered :)
[05:56] <nixternal> there aren't any DDs or MOTUs in Chicago that I know of
[05:57] <crimsun> I'll be in o'hare for a layover next weekend
[05:57] <nixternal> most OSS people here either use Slackware, BSD, or Emacs :)
[05:57] <nixternal> oh really now
[05:57] <nixternal> how long is that layover?
[05:57] <crimsun> 30 mins
[05:57] <nixternal> lol
[05:57] <crimsun> yeah, "no layover" essentially.
[05:57] <nixternal> umm, unless I want to go to prison, i can't meet ya then :)
[05:58] <nixternal> as it is easy to rush through and get all the way to a gate before you are busted anyways
[05:58] <LaserJock> heh
[05:58] <LaserJock> can see the planet post
[05:59] <nixternal> like my flight to Calgary a couple months back. The security guy asked me if I was going to alert him that someone walked past undetected. I told him I wasn't a hero
[05:59] <LaserJock> weird
[05:59] <nixternal> ya, I have no clue why he asked me that, but he got that for a response
[06:00] <nixternal> and when they ask you to remove your shoes, don't ask them to take their top off first or do the "you show me yours, I will show you mine" joke
[06:00] <LaserJock> oh geeze
[06:01] <nixternal> ya, I usually miss my flight because of them
[06:01] <nixternal> or have to rush to get there
[06:01] <LaserJock> I don't rock the boat
[06:01] <LaserJock> I just stand in line like the rest of the cows
[06:01] <nixternal> LaserJock: I usually am myself, but I can't stand ignorance one bit, but those are good jokes though, and darn funny <larry the cable guy>dem dare is funny, i dun care who yaar</larry the cable guy>
[06:03] <nixternal> for instance, today at school (the MBA school), our first day in this class, the teacher gives a test, worth 250 points, the only test larger than this is the finals which are worth 300 points
[06:04] <nixternal> it took most people 4 to 5 hours to complete the stupid test
[06:04] <nixternal> heh, I guess you would get the for instance part since I was in the wrong channel
[06:04] <nixternal> s/would/wouldn't/
[06:06] <LaserJock> oh, I thought it went with the "but I can't stand ignorance one bit" part ;-)
[06:08] <nixternal> well, I guess it could go with that, however ignorant it may be, he got our attention
[06:30] <coreyt> Actually the new CNR will work through the Ubuntu package repository.  So Ubuntu maintains what goes into CNR.
[06:31] <coreyt> nixternal, our CIO mentioned the MBA this week.  Said it's going to be worthless if reports of 50% of students cheat keep cropping up.
[06:32] <LaserJock> coreyt: I don't understand, why would you use CNR then?
[06:33] <coreyt> It provides more than synaptic does
[06:33] <coreyt> given I use apt when I know what I'm looking for though.
[06:33] <coreyt> CNR is what people will want so they can look at an app and see reviews and stuff on how others liked the program.
[06:34] <LaserJock> sure, but that kind of stuff is  being worked on in Ubuntu
[06:34] <coreyt> Today you have to do that through google and joe linux is not going to bother searching stuff up he'll just give up on package management.
[06:34] <LaserJock> google?
[06:34] <LaserJock> that's what g-a-i is for
[06:35] <coreyt> I have no idea what that is so I'm going to guess nobody else who just comes to linux will either.
[06:35] <coreyt> I've been using Linux since redhat 5
[06:35] <LaserJock> heh
[06:35] <LaserJock> it's "Add/Remove Applications" in the menu
[06:35] <boredandblogging> hello, jdong over in #ubuntuforums suggested I post my question here: is there any documentation that needs a home? I just saw a thread on how the author of "How to install anything in Ubuntu" couldn't maintain it anymore. Just wonder if there was a resource for locating other projects that needed homes.
[06:36] <LaserJock> hmm
[06:36] <boredandblogging> basically I've got some space and bandwidth to spare
[06:36] <LaserJock> we have our own servers
[06:36] <coreyt> same here, but I'm looking to redo into mediawiki
[06:38] <boredandblogging> Are the servers for official ubuntu docs?
[06:38] <coreyt> boredandblogging, mine are not
[06:39] <coreyt> how many page views does this get?
[06:39] <coreyt> I can see why, it's bandwidth intensive, should have gone with some smaller or lossier previews and a click for full rez.
[06:40] <LaserJock> boredandblogging: well, we have the shipped docs, and community wiki
[06:42] <boredandblogging> LaserJock: I understand, I just thought someone who wrote up a webpage on their own might need hosting. I know about the official and gwos.org site. Just wondering random other folks who wrote up HOWTOs or a tutorial would need some place to store it.
[06:43] <LaserJock> well, I don't know of any
[06:43] <LaserJock> we encourgage everyone to work on help.ubuntu.com
[06:43] <LaserJock> so that users on have to go to one URL
[06:45] <boredandblogging> yup, that makes sense. thanks for the help guys.
[06:45] <LaserJock> boredandblogging: thanks for the offer though, it's great to see people wanting to help out
[06:46] <boredandblogging> no problem
[06:47] <coreyt> How do you guys deal with documentation that shows some tricky things to do with linux.
[06:48] <coreyt> With any how-to there's always the chance you could cause a less skilled user to screw up their system.
[06:48] <LaserJock> well
[06:49] <LaserJock> we really try hard
[06:49] <LaserJock> and have lots of review
[06:49] <LaserJock> and try to get dev review
[06:49] <LaserJock> and use GUI whenever possible
[06:50] <coreyt> Is there an entry telling users to not install Beryl on Dapper :)
[06:50] <LaserJock> hmm, not sure exactly
[06:50] <LaserJock> there is a fair amount of Beryl/Compiz material
[06:50] <LaserJock> but I'm not sure if there is much on Dapper
[06:51] <coreyt> Actually if you install Beryl on Dapper you will break the distro
[06:51] <coreyt> apt-get update will begin to fail
[06:52] <coreyt> and it breaks upgrading to Edgy
[06:52] <LaserJock> yeah
[06:53] <coreyt> I found out the hard way :)
[06:53] <LaserJock> that's why I stick to stuff that's in the repos
[06:53] <LaserJock> or is very trusted
[06:57] <LaserJock> and is why I tend to not like CNR or zeroinstall, etc.
[06:57] <LaserJock> building an OS with thousands of independent software authors is quite difficult
[07:00] <crimsun> for some of those tasks, screencasts are an excellent avenue of propagation
[07:00] <LaserJock> yeah
[07:00] <LaserJock> I'm hoping to see our screencast project take off
[07:00] <LaserJock> I don't use a GUI enough to contribute, but it seems cool
[07:05] <nixternal> coreyt: I don't see how people could cheat their way through the MBA courses. It isn't any different than any other Masters program
[07:05] <nixternal> plus, a majority of our work is field based with individual one-on-one tests with the professor
[08:48] <popey> LaserJock: I suspect there may be a call for console based screencasts at some point
[08:57] <popey> would have to seriously think about that though, need to make sure the text is readable, so probably scale the font up quite high
[08:58] <tonyyarusso> yeah
[09:01] <LaserJock> popey: it'd probably be nice for a "How to rebuild from source" or "How to build an Ubuntu package"
[09:29] <popey> yes, they're on the list to do Laser_away
[12:53] <mdke> dsas: hiya
[12:53] <dsas> hi mdke
[12:53] <mdke> so for some reason the java stuff is less up to date than what we had for edgy :(
[12:54] <mdke> that's weird, and disturbing because it makes you wonder what else is missing
[12:54] <dsas> mdke: Weird, must have been fixed in the edgy branch and not trunk or something?
[12:54] <mdke> yes. We need to update it, definitely
[12:54] <mdke> if you fancy doing a patch... :)
[12:54] <dsas> heh, sure.
[12:56] <dsas> being offline should mean you get things done more quickly. At least I do.
[12:57] <mdke> yes, that's true of my real life todo list
[12:58] <mdke> but that's pretty short anyhow :)
[01:23] <CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3720 ubuntu/Makefile: fixing build for packagingguide
[01:23] <mdke> Laser_away: ^^
[01:43] <CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3721 /trunk/ (60 files in 34 dirs): beginning significant rearranging of Ubuntu directory for ease of translation
[01:51] <CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3722 ubuntu/ (66 files in 28 dirs): creating C/ directories for each document, moving the xml into them (continuing the migration for ease of translation)
[01:53] <CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3723 ubuntu/ (18 files in 10 dirs): moving omf files
[01:57] <CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3724 debian/ (changelog rules): adjusting packaging for new directory changes
[02:04] <CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3725 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): updates to website build things for new directory structure
[02:04] <mdke> hiya ompaul
[02:10] <dsas> mdke: In Feisty we have java1.6 and 1.5 available, most people are still using java1.5 though...Should I just include a note at the end saying "java 1.6 can be installed following the above instructions, but swapping the 1.5 for 1.6 ?
[02:10] <mdke> dsas: which is preferred?
[02:11] <dsas> mdke: As far as I'm aware most current development is done using 1.4 or 1.5, 1.6 is pretty new, but it is the way forward.
[02:11] <mdke> yeah, a note sounds fine
[02:12] <mdke> dsas: if you do a patch, make sure you create the diff on the xml file only, since I've just hacked around with the directory structure, it will be easier to apply
[02:12] <dsas> mdke: sure.
[02:25] <dsas> mdke: Is it worth outlining basic uses of the C compiler perhaps? I.e. "to compile a C program run gcc -o programname sourcecode.c"
[02:25] <mdke> dsas: in programming.xml?
[02:25] <dsas> mdke: Yeah
[02:25] <mdke> best would be a link to a more comprehensive guide I think
[02:27] <dsas> Ok, I was just thinking longtime C + linux programmers probably know, or at least know where to look. Whereas newcomers (e.g. first year uni CS students) might appreciate "how to compile and run a trivial program".
[02:28] <mdke> dsas: we need to have a think about that programming section. I don't know how well it sits with the new advanced-topics section
[02:32] <dsas> mdke: Ok, I can link to an intro to gcc or something for the moment. I was just thinking that there's lots of whitespace available. Though it may not be good to fill it really.
[02:33] <mdke> dsas: maybe we can merge it with the advanced-topics section somehow.
[02:34] <mdke> there is probably a fair amount of repetition there already
[02:37] <dsas> mdke: Ah, I never saw that before.
[02:37] <mdke> dsas: we just added it this week
[02:43] <dsas> mdke: What are the plans for it?
[02:44] <mdke> dsas: well, they are open
[02:45] <mdke> dsas: what you see now :)
[02:45] <dsas> I guess it would make sense for programming.xml to be "installing programming applications" and for advanced-topic to refer to that.
[02:45] <mdke> right. The manuals for various things are linked to already from advanced-topic
[02:47] <dsas> ah, didn't realise that ApplicationsProgramming actually did anything yet.
[02:48] <dsas> "eGenix mxStack Manual - Manual for eGenix mxStack.", very descriptive.
[02:48] <mdke> yeah, it's always been there.
[02:48] <mdke> hah.
[02:48] <mdke> to fix that you'll have to do a patch on the package
[02:53] <dsas> I think that lots of people will see "writing your own programs", imagine some kind of tutorial, click it and getting a huge wall of meaningless, unsorted API references.
[02:55] <mdke> dsas: do you think it will be possible to tidy it up?
[02:55] <mdke> or maybe change the description?
[02:55] <dsas> some of the things are huge edge cases, the chances that someone will purposefully go through help to find "Extending and Embedding the Python Interpreter (v2.5)" are really slim.
[02:55] <dsas> mdke: Is the page auto generated?
[02:56] <mdke> dsas: the second level page is, the advanced-topic page is ours of course
[02:57] <mdke> the ApplicationsProgramming page is generated from the title and descriptions in the omf file for the relevant application
[03:00] <dsas> it's hard to think of a better short name, that fits in with the advanced-topic style, something on the lines of "API documents, language references and programming tools help" isn't exactly intuitive.
[03:05] <dsas> Of course it's hard to make advanced-topic be a programming tutorial, it'd be lengthy and probably out of scope.
[03:11] <dsas> I've sent a patch for programming.xml in the meanwhile though :)
[03:14] <mdke> I suppose we can move programming.xml to be a sub-page of advanced-topics, and move the links to programming into that
[03:15] <mdke> it would probably need to be bulked up a bit, I guess
[03:19] <CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3726 kubuntu/ (29 files in 29 dirs): moving tbh docs
[03:21] <dsas> ok, what kind of info should I use to bulk it up? Running with the "this is a basic use of gcc" idea I had earlier? extending that to java too?
[03:22] <mdke> I don't really know, tbh. More of an introduction that can better explain the manuals that you can find in the packages
[03:23] <CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3727 kubuntu/ (17 files in 16 dirs): adding C directories
[03:23] <CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3728 kubuntu/C/: removing C
[03:27] <dsas> "There is lots of documentation on programming available on your ubuntu system. You can see this by visiting ApplicationsProgramming, much more documentation can be installed by installing "-doc" packages
[03:28] <CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3729 kubuntu/ (48 files in 30 dirs): moving files into C subdirectories
[03:33] <mdke> hmm, did I leave?
[03:33] <mdke> crazy gaim
[03:36] <mdke> dsas: there is something in internet.xml that needs updating for java too
[03:37] <dsas> mdke: Ok, I'll take a look
[03:37] <mdke> :)
[03:37] <mdke> ok, i'll bbl
[04:04] <CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3730 /trunk/ (4 files in 4 dirs): cleaning up
[04:30] <CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3731 /trunk/ (index.xml kubuntu/Makefile kubuntu/index.xml): fixed Makefile to build all, fixed linking
[04:31] <CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3732 /trunk/index.xml: oops
[06:26] <glatzor> hi mdke. there was a reason skipping the German translation of the desktop guide in the latest edgy-updates release of ubuntu-docs?
[06:48] <mdke> glatzor: yes, that was a number of fixes that have been waiting in the stable release update approval system for several months. We haven't yet imported any new translations
[06:50] <mdke> nixternal: I don't understand your latest post to the -doc list. Did you read my reply to your earlier one about how pdfs won't make any different to broken links?
[06:51] <mdke> s/different/difference
[06:54] <mdke> glatzor: but in any case, it is still in -proposed, not even -updates yet
[06:56] <glatzor> mdke: the long time frame is quite discouraging.
[06:57] <LaserJock> mdke: thanks
[06:57] <mdke> glatzor: I'm sorry about that, we're pretty busy. If you want to help with importing the translations, that would be fine.
[06:57] <glatzor> mdke: the question is who will be reading it at all after the release of feisty :)
[06:58] <mdke> true
[06:58] <mdke> LaserJock: yw
[06:59] <glatzor> mdke: how many working hours/days do you estimate for the import?
[07:00] <mdke> glatzor: do you mean if you help, or if we do it?
[07:01] <nixternal> mdke: i read it after I sent that
[07:02] <mdke> nixternal: oh, ok. It was an hour and a half earlier, that's why I was confused
[07:03] <mdke> glatzor: iit is quite a long process right now because all the xml validity errors need to be fixed, and adding each new translation to the packaging, and there are lots of documents to do that for. It used to take me several hours. Then you just have to go through the stable release update procedure, which probably takes another few weeks, according to previous experience.
[07:03] <nixternal> ya mdke it just came across after I sent mine, for some reason I was hitting gmail
[07:03] <glatzor> mdke: oh, sorry. I am quite busy with my personal development and translating projects
[07:04] <glatzor> mdke: I cannot donate so much time. sorry
[07:04] <mdke> glatzor: I hope that for the next release we can implement a system to make it easier
[07:04] <mdke> after correcting errors with the xml validity for the first time, we can try and regenerate po files and upload them to Rosetta so that we only have to do that task once, then we can get updates more easily
[07:06] <mdke> it's a real pain ATM
[07:07] <glatzor> mdke: I already spent a lot of time on the translation and the review process. So I have to make a cut, since it doesn't seem to be worth further efforts.
[07:07] <glatzor> mdke: sounds so
[07:07] <mdke> yeah, I understand
[07:08] <mdke> we can maybe just import the german translation, since you've spent so much time on it
[07:09] <glatzor> mdke: that would be nice.
[07:10] <glatzor> mdke: I have got some potatos on my cooker. So see you
[07:11] <mdke> glatzor: :)
[07:11] <mdke> buon appetito
[07:24] <mdke> nixternal: can you send me a copy of replace-doctype-with.py pls?
[07:24] <mdke> (by email)
[07:27] <mdke> nixternal: oh no actually, it's in the repo :) by bad
[07:27] <mdke> my bad <--
[07:29] <nixternal> hehe
[08:30] <mdke> glatzor: rosetta hasn't emailed me my po yet, I presume it's broken?
[08:33] <LaserJock> seems like a lot of Rosetta breakage at the moment
[08:33] <mdke> could be