[01:37] <john_the_unique> hello
[01:38] <john_the_unique> just what development environments are most popular with game designers?
[02:22] <poningru> anyone know if java will be included in feisty by default?
[02:23] <tonyyarusso> not a clue
[02:23] <poningru> thanks
[02:28] <john_the_unique> licensing issues?
[02:30] <elkbuntu> john_the_unique, more likely 'if it's ready in time'
[02:30] <john_the_unique> that's what i like to hear
[02:34] <john_the_unique> firefox pretty much has the users' #1 demand met
[02:34] <john_the_unique> how are we going to meet #2?
[02:35] <john_the_unique> playing games
[02:35] <john_the_unique> this is the deal breaker and why i can't recommend ubuntu to everyone
[02:36] <tonyyarusso> I would have a VERY hard time believing games were #2.
[02:36] <tonyyarusso> Maybe among 14 year olds.
[02:36] <xipietotec> john_the_unique: the majority of computer users do not play computer games
[02:36] <xipietotec> I say this as someone who *does*
[02:36] <tonyyarusso> Yes, games are big, but computers are first and foremost production machines, not toys.
[02:36] <tonyyarusso> Games probably come in around #8.
[02:37] <john_the_unique> yes, but for someone who wants to do both (which is most users) guess what os they'll choose?
[02:37] <john_the_unique> they don't care if they have to pay money
[02:37] <tonyyarusso> The toy OS, of course.
[02:37] <john_the_unique> they are paying money for the game anyhow
[02:37] <tonyyarusso> How are you backing up "most users"?
[02:37] <john_the_unique> a ubuntu poll
[02:37] <tonyyarusso> Most users _I_ know don't.
[02:38] <john_the_unique> it confirms my experience
[02:38] <john_the_unique> even my friends who know linux, install and maintain windows for family and friends
[02:38] <tonyyarusso> Most users are using their computers at work, where they would be fired it they played games.
[02:38] <john_the_unique> why? because windows supports games with no hassle
[02:38] <john_the_unique> it's those areas i can recommend linux wholeheartedly
[02:39] <john_the_unique> but not to home users
[02:39] <tonyyarusso> I'm not going to argue that games are a major market, but they are certainly not #2, and other things need attention first.
[02:39] <john_the_unique> if all we want to target is corporate users, then we're doing good
[02:39] <tonyyarusso> The home users I know also are trying to get work done.  They're mainly university students and middle-aged people.
[02:40] <tonyyarusso> It's the just out of college but haven't found a job yet market that needs games.
[02:40] <tonyyarusso> Everyone else doesn't have time.
[02:40] <john_the_unique> hehe
[02:40] <john_the_unique> you'd be surprised
[02:40] <john_the_unique> i'd say the heavy demographic group for games is between 14-40
[02:41] <john_the_unique> of those, which demographic is going to be making decisions about which os they'd like to use?
[02:41] <john_the_unique> probably 16-40
[02:41] <tonyyarusso> Also, games aren't really something we can do anything about.  We can whine about it, but that's about it.  Developing them to rival professional outfits would take a lot of work, and the people able to do the work aren't really interested in that area.  The professional outfits won't make their games for Linux because it's not worth their time either.
[02:42] <john_the_unique> i'm not saying that we develop games
[02:42] <john_the_unique> ...but we do need to pander to game developers
[02:42] <tonyyarusso> how?
[02:42] <tonyyarusso> We can't show them the numbers.
[02:42] <john_the_unique> what is it about linux that makes porting code from visual studio and direct x so hard?
[02:42] <tonyyarusso> The bottom line doesn't make sense.
[02:43] <tonyyarusso> I think it's more about what it is about visual studio and direct x.
[02:43] <tonyyarusso> You'd have to ask someone who does it.
[02:43] <john_the_unique> are you a developer?
[02:43] <tonyyarusso> No.
[02:43] <john_the_unique> then I'm talking to the wrong guy
[02:43] <tonyyarusso> I've started to dabble, but nothing like that.
[02:44] <tonyyarusso> I can observe a market though, and I know you're going to have to come up with numbers to convince anyone, numbers which we can only get by fixing the other things first.
[02:44] <john_the_unique> i'm going to push this so you guys can market more effectively
[02:44] <john_the_unique> linux certainly is gaining numbers
[02:44] <john_the_unique> no doubt due to efforts on the part of people in this group
[02:45] <john_the_unique> it is becoming more visible
[02:45] <tonyyarusso> Right, which will help the games market ultimately - I just don't think it's above critical mass yet.
[02:45] <tonyyarusso> Soon, we hope.
[02:45] <john_the_unique> maybe not
[02:45] <tonyyarusso> But I wouldn't waste my own efforts personally until it had more oomph for that aspect.
[02:45] <john_the_unique> but i'm going to try to push the right buttons to help us move into critical mass
[02:45] <john_the_unique> that's ok
[02:46] <tonyyarusso> Do you have internal market connections of some sort to pull strings with?  If that's the case you might be able to make some headway.
[02:46] <john_the_unique> continue marketing to corporates and schools
[02:46] <john_the_unique> i'll work on the software end
[02:46] <tonyyarusso> yeah, schools are my pet target ;)
[02:46] <john_the_unique> you continue in the marketing
[02:46] <john_the_unique> schools are an effective target
[02:46] <john_the_unique> nice talking to you
[02:46] <john_the_unique> bye
[03:03] <poningru> !wifi
[03:03] <ubotu> Wireless documentation can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs
[10:10] <somerville32> jenda: Too bad I don't have sound for flash
[10:11] <jenda> aww
[10:12] <somerville32> Is it funny?
[10:12] <jenda> Not really, just a transcript of what he described.
[10:15] <somerville32> oh, ok
[11:12] <tonyyarusso> n2diy: You're probably right - actually our library in town here has a few Linux workstations.
[11:12] <n2diy> tonyyarusso: hello
[11:12] <tonyyarusso> Schools are my pet target b/c my current plan is to go into teaching.
[11:13] <n2diy> tonyyarusso: I was President of my local library, but I win reelection.
[11:14] <tonyyarusso> So it's really just a matter of being the logical target for me personally.
[11:14] <tonyyarusso> Cool.
[11:16] <n2diy> tonyyarusso: I should go to bed, I meant to say, I _lost_ the last election. But, I had a linux box up and runnning, during my term.
[11:17] <n2diy> tonyyarusso: politics
[11:17] <tonyyarusso> yeah
[11:18] <n2diy> tonyyarusso: any idiea of what  an MS license cost per box?
[11:18] <tonyyarusso> n2diy: retail or oem?
[11:19] <n2diy> tonyyarusso: I thought schools had there on rate?
[11:20] <tonyyarusso> ah, they often do
[11:20] <tonyyarusso> It depends on whether they're looking at competitors or not.
[11:20] <tonyyarusso> If they're solidly Windows, they pay a steeper price.
[11:21] <tonyyarusso> If they're waffling, MS starts throwing money at them to try to keep hold.
[11:21] <n2diy> tonyyarusso: They are looking at competitors, you and me!
[11:22] <tonyyarusso> yup
[11:23] <tonyyarusso> which makes our job that much harder
[11:23] <tonyyarusso> We start to lose the price arguement and have to go on other merits
[11:24] <tonyyarusso> TCO is still fair game thoughw if you can show that administering an entire school's systems will be easier.
[11:31] <n2diy> tonyyarusso: I thought you where a big shot around here?  Address me man, so my bell rings! What is TCO?
[11:34] <tonyyarusso> n2diy: hehe.  Total Cost of Ownership - the concept of overall investment required, including purchase/licensing, staff training, maintenance and administration, disaster recovery, etc. all addee together.
[11:35] <n2diy> tonyyarusso: yep.
[11:36] <n2diy> tonyyarusso: Any idea what the per student cost is, on average?
[11:39] <tonyyarusso> n2diy: anywhere from $4 to $60 I'd guess.
[11:40] <n2diy> tonyyarusso: Roger on the guess. Something I need to research here.
[11:42] <Ckenyon> jenda:ping
[12:01] <jenda> Ckenyon: pong
[12:04] <jenda> Ckenyon: pong?
[12:04] <jenda> 30s :)
[12:08] <Ckenyon> Hi Jenda
[12:08] <jenda> Ckenyon: one more pong, this time for real :)
[12:09] <jenda> heya 
[12:10] <jenda> (sorry, I really don't know what's going on with my ISP - I did just call them)
[01:15] <snail> ;)
[01:15] <snail> hmm
[03:02] <Vorian> hi meatballhat :)
[03:52] <somerville32> Jenda: ping
[04:25] <jenda> somerville32: pong
[04:38] <jenda> unpong
[04:40] <tonyyarusso> |    .    |
[04:54] <jenda> |        |
[04:55] <GazzaK> |         |  oops
[04:55] <tonyyarusso> Geez GazzaK, we only had one ball.
[04:55] <GazzaK> sorry
[04:56] <jenda> 
[06:44] <Lt> Good afternoon
[06:50] <LtSmith> I nmight beable to get us some noticability on linuxquestions.org. 
[06:55] <LtSmith> I could possibly  get us some add space on linux questions.org
[07:44] <somerville32> jenda: pin
[07:44] <somerville32> +g
[07:45] <juliux> jenda, ping;)
[08:31] <jenda> somerville32, juliux pong
[08:31] <juliux> jenda, how should i pay the stickers?
[08:31] <jenda> paypal
[08:31] <somerville32> jenda: Who changed the modes for the channel?
[08:31] <somerville32> I can't change the topic
[08:32] <somerville32> Jenda: If we plan to keep it this way, could you please add me to access list.
[08:32] <juliux> jenda, ok
[08:33] <jenda> somerville32: yes you can :)
[08:33] <somerville32> Thanks
[08:34] <jenda> Be considerate, Cody :
[08:34] <jenda> :)
[09:30] <Vorian> wb jenda :)
[10:20] <tsmithe> ping jenda
[10:23] <jenda> thanks, somerville32
[10:35] <tsmithe> ping jenda
[10:35] <jenda> tsmithe: pong?
[10:35] <jenda> kinda?
[10:35] <tsmithe> hmm
[10:35] <tsmithe> sorry
[10:35] <jenda> going to bed.
[10:35] <jenda> :)
[10:35] <tsmithe> i've forgotten :P
[10:35] <jenda> what's up?
[10:35] <tsmithe> g'night :)
[10:36] <tsmithe> obviously need it