[12:38] <Hobbsee> @schedule est
[12:38] <Ubugtu> Schedule for EST: 30 Jan 15:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 15:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 17:00: Xubuntu | 31 Jan 18:00: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 15:00: Mozilla Team
[01:19] <pochu> @now madrid
[01:19] <Ubugtu> Current time in Europe/Madrid: January 30 2007, 13:19:23 - Next meeting: Technical Board in 7 hours 40 minutes
[06:24] <pochu> @schedule
[06:24] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 30 Jan 20:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 22:00: Xubuntu | 31 Jan 23:00: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 20:00: Mozilla Team
[06:52] <Amaranth> @schedule Chicago
[06:52] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 30 Jan 14:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 14:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 16:00: Xubuntu | 31 Jan 17:00: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 14:00: Mozilla Team
[06:52] <somerville32> @schedule atlantic
[06:52] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Canada/Atlantic: 30 Jan 16:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 16:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 18:00: Xubuntu | 31 Jan 19:00: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 16:00: Mozilla Team
[07:59] <Ma1kel> @schedule amsterdam
[07:59] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 30 Jan 21:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 23:00: Xubuntu | 01 Feb 00:00: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 21:00: Mozilla Team
[09:00] <Ma1kel> In AD 2007
[09:00] <Ma1kel> The Technical board meeting was beginning
[09:00] <Keybuk> don't hold your breath ... mdz just ping timeout'd :p
[09:01] <Ma1kel> Main discussion turn on
[09:01] <Ma1kel> How are you gentlemen?
[09:02] <Keybuk> mjg59 will not be joining us today; he's got a PhD to procrastinate over
[09:02] <ajmitch> there's actually one scheduled for today?
[09:02] <Keybuk> I thought mdz was joining us, he was in a conf-call with me not an hour ago, but he's just vanished
[09:02] <Keybuk> trying to find out whether it's temporary, or whether he's gone for dinner and forgotten
[09:02] <dholbach> ajmitch: I'm here
[09:02] <ajmitch> dholbach: yay!
[09:03] <Ma1kel> [20:50:16]  * Ubugtu changes topic to 'Current meeting: Technical Board | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 31 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 22:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 31 Jan 23:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 20:00 UTC: Mozilla Team'
[09:03] <Seveas> Ma1kel, we know that...
[09:03] <ajmitch> ubugtu & reality don't always match
[09:03] <Seveas> heh
[09:03] <Ma1kel> The system can't be wrong.
[09:05] <Keybuk> ok, let's get going
[09:05] <mdz_> good evening
[09:05] <Keybuk> First up: core-de
[09:05] <Keybuk> v
[09:05] <Keybuk> I don't have anyone on my list for that
[09:05] <Keybuk> is there anyone here who's applied for core-dev, and thinks they should be on that list?
[09:06] <Keybuk> ok
[09:06] <Keybuk> next up: ubuntu-dev
[09:06] <Adri2000> yep :)
[09:07] <Keybuk> on my list, I have metres, mlind, Praveen Kumar, EtienneG, prash, TheMuso & Adri2000
[09:07] <tepsipakki> me too
[09:07] <Keybuk> is EtienneG here?
[09:07] <EtienneG> Keybuk, yep !
[09:08] <tepsipakki> previous meeting was cancelled so my application perhaps got dropped
[09:08] <Keybuk> you're first in date order; so introduce yourself
[09:08] <EtienneG> excellent
[09:08] <EtienneG> I am support analyst in the Mtl office
[09:08] <sabdfl> evening all
[09:08] <EtienneG> Launchpad packaging page : https://launchpad.net/~etienne-goyer-outlands/+packages
[09:09] <Keybuk> you package bzr?
[09:09] <EtienneG> I am also responsible for bzr package on http://bazaar-vcs.org/releases/packages
[09:09] <mdz_> EtienneG: in addition, I understand you've been doing some packaging for the commercial repository, which is maintained outside of launchpad
[09:09] <EtienneG> Keybuk, yep, i took this over from jbailey
[09:09] <EtienneG> mdz, indeed
[09:09] <EtienneG> latest package there have been SugarCRM
[09:10] <sabdfl> have you worked with any MOTU?
[09:10] <EtienneG> I also package a few Canonical-internal things
[09:10] <EtienneG> sabdfl, not yet unfortunately
[09:10] <sabdfl> i think that's important to join ubuntu-dev
[09:10] <EtienneG> I had the chance of getting all my package sponsored by jbailey and mvo
[09:10] <sabdfl> i know that i knock on your door for things like bzr packaging but ubuntu-dev is all about motu
[09:11] <mvo> EtienneG worked with me quite a bit and I'm very happy with the work he is doing
[09:11] <mdz> EtienneG: have you read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers ?
[09:11] <EtienneG> mdz, yes
[09:12] <EtienneG> mostly, i am looking for more autonomy in the maintenance of bzr-related package
[09:12] <EtienneG> and to lessen the workload on my usual sponsors (mvo, jbailey)
[09:13] <sabdfl> i have a suggestion
[09:13] <EtienneG> I'm all ear
[09:13] <sabdfl> if we approve the motu council today, then all you would need is two motu council folks to +1 you and you'd be in there
[09:13] <sabdfl> that way you'd be known to them
[09:13] <sabdfl> since you're joining their team
[09:14] <EtienneG> sabdfl, sound perfectly good to me
[09:14] <sabdfl> for my part, +1, you can quote me on that
[09:14] <sabdfl> cool
[09:14] <EtienneG> sabdfl, thanks !
[09:14] <mdz> sabdfl++
[09:15] <sabdfl> ok, let's see if EtienneG can be the test case for the NewStreamlinedMotuProcess
[09:15] <sabdfl> next up?
[09:15] <EtienneG> excellent !
[09:15] <dholbach> ( https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MotuProcessesSpec )
[09:15] <mdz> EtienneG: I think it's especially important in your case, as a Canonical employee, that you become more involved with the community, since it's easy to work with other developers internally and not develop a good relationship with the developer community
[09:15] <tepsipakki> would that apply for the rest ot the motuhopefuls
[09:15] <tepsipakki> ?
[09:15] <jbailey_> mdz: How does that affect upload rights for -commerical, though?
[09:16] <mdz> jbailey_: upload rights for -commercial should be the same as -core-dev, since it's nearly equivalent to main in terms of its presentation to users
[09:16] <sabdfl> -commercial isn't enabled by default, though?
[09:16] <mdz> it's designated "supported" in the UI
[09:17] <sabdfl> ok
[09:17] <sabdfl> tepsipakki: i don't mind dealing with prospectives now
[09:18] <sabdfl> particularly wanted EtienneG to be in the loop with MOTU council
[09:18] <tepsipakki> ok
[09:18] <sabdfl> if you have a quick, clear cut case we can +1 you now
[09:18] <sabdfl> otherwise, we'll defer to MOTU council
[09:18] <EtienneG> sabdfl, mdz : this will certainly be
[09:18] <sabdfl> ok?
[09:18] <mdz> ok with me
[09:19] <tepsipakki> cool, so I'm up next?
[09:19] <Keybuk> ok with me too
[09:19] <sabdfl> fire away
[09:19] <mdz> deferring to the MOTU countil should be much more convenient than coming to a future TB meeting, according to the docs
[09:19] <mdz> council, even
[09:19] <sabdfl> candidates, if you could write up your three line intro, url's to wiki pages, packaging histories etc, that would make things go smoothly
[09:19] <Keybuk> tepsipakki: you registered for ubuntu-dev almost 6 months ago; how come it's taken you so long to reach a TB meeting?
[09:20] <sabdfl> (w.r.t. mdz's comment that's because you can approach any 2 of the council at any time, not scheduled meetings like this, iirc)
[09:20] <mdz> (yes)
[09:20] <tepsipakki> keybuk: I was here last time ;)
[09:20] <tepsipakki> but you were not :)
[09:20] <tepsipakki> so the meeting was cancelled
[09:20] <ajmitch> I think at one point you didn't have enough contributions, right?
[09:21] <tepsipakki> yes, that was in october
[09:21] <mdz> tepsipakki: what have you been working on since then?
[09:21] <tepsipakki> anyway, here's the wiki-page for the impatient: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimoAaltonen
[09:22] <tepsipakki> there you can find links to the merges/syncs I've requested
[09:22] <tepsipakki> (and other work, but thats what is new)
[09:22] <tepsipakki> oops
[09:22] <mdz> tepsipakki: it mentions that you've been testing automated netboot installations.  that's great, as those aren't tested as often as some other installation methods
[09:22] <mdz> tepsipakki: how do you report your test results?
[09:23] <tepsipakki> poke colin ;)
[09:23] <tepsipakki> when the installer team was created, I joined shortly after
[09:23] <mdz> tepsipakki: there is a wiki page which explains how to report results so that everyone can see them :-)
[09:23] <tepsipakki> yeah, of course
[09:23] <tepsipakki> I file bugs too
[09:24] <tepsipakki> and sometimes even write patches to fix them
[09:24] <tepsipakki> there are some that are on my list for feisty
[09:24] <tepsipakki> which would make the installation a bit more robust
[09:24] <sabdfl> cjwatson: any comment on interactions with timo?
[09:25] <mdz> Colin is on a train somewhere, or on his way to one, unfortunately
[09:25] <dholbach> tepsipakki did very well on looking at gnome-screensaver bugs - i got lots of mails :)
[09:25] <tepsipakki> his comments are available if the logs of the cancelled meeting are somewhere
[09:26] <sabdfl> +1 from me, lots of work across a variety of packages, and clearly interacting with the right folks in a sensible way
[09:26] <tepsipakki> oh yes, g-s is a pet of mine (sometimes)
[09:26] <sabdfl> tepsipakki: would you care to join the beta.launchpad.net group to take a peek?
[09:26] <tepsipakki> sabdfl: what's that about?
[09:27] <tepsipakki> oh, a test site?
[09:27] <sabdfl> ;-)
[09:27] <tepsipakki> sure, if I only could get in ;)
[09:27] <tepsipakki> ah
[09:28] <mdz> Jan 16 12:01:21 <cjwatson>      I can't be here for the TB meeting, but I'd like to express support for Timo Aaltonen; he's b
[09:28] <mdz> een useful on d-i work in the past and has expressed interest in helping out with installer merge work
[09:28] <tepsipakki> mdz: you beat me to it :)
[09:28] <mdz> +1 based on positive feedback from dholbach and cjwatson
[09:28] <Keybuk> +1 from me also
[09:28] <tepsipakki> sabdfl: ooh, shiny!
[09:28] <sabdfl> cool - welcome aboard, timo!
[09:29] <tepsipakki> thanks!
[09:29] <sabdfl> np
[09:29] <tepsipakki> to all
[09:29] <Keybuk> ok
[09:29] <Keybuk> next is TheMuso
[09:29] <TheMuso> I am Luke Yelavich, a 24 year old job seeker from Sydney, Australia. I am a member of the Ubuntu accessibility team, and have been working with MOTU for over 12 months with merges, and some bug triaging, mostly accessibility related.
[09:29] <TheMuso> wiki page: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/LukeYelavich
[09:29] <TheMuso> Launchpad page: http://launchpad.net/people/themuso
[09:29] <TheMuso> Packages: https://launchpad.net/~themuso/+packages
[09:30] <LaserJock> *\o/*
[09:30] <sistpoty> welcome tepsipakki
[09:30] <sabdfl> yowser :-)
[09:31] <Keybuk> so, err, any questions for TheMuso ?
[09:31] <dholbach> heno++
[09:31] <TheMuso> I believe crimsun emailed the TB about the work I have done with him.
[09:31] <Keybuk> "It is my pleasure to endorse fully the application of Luke Yelavich for
[09:31] <Keybuk> ubuntu-dev membership. For over one year, he has worked diligently in
[09:31] <Keybuk> MOTU on packaging and bug triaging (mostly a11y-related) and has
[09:31] <Keybuk> demonstrated positive interactions both in MOTU and with upstreams.
[09:31] <Keybuk> Ubuntu has gained a valuable contributor in Luke, and I welcome him to
[09:31] <Keybuk> the ubuntu-dev ranks."
[09:31] <Keybuk> he did
[09:31] <mdz> I'm familiar with TheMuso's accessibility work through henrik
[09:32] <sabdfl> i've met luke in paris, iirc
[09:32] <Amaranth> TheMuso: I thought you were already ubuntu-dev
[09:32] <TheMuso> sabdfl: Briefly, but yes we did.
[09:32] <sabdfl> +1 from me based on a long track record of work generally, and specifically for contributions to ally
[09:33] <Keybuk> +1 from me also; Luke's contributions are well known to everyone, I think
[09:33] <mdz> +1
[09:33] <sabdfl> TheMuso: maybe you could tell us what your single biggest hope for ubuntu is in 2007?
[09:34] <TheMuso> sabdfl: All I can say, si improving accessibility even further. There is still a long way to go, but every release we still manage to get something in that is new and useful.
[09:34] <mdz> Keybuk: is anyone else from your list present?
[09:34] <Keybuk> Adri2000 is
[09:34] <Adri2000> I am :)
[09:34] <Keybuk> Adri2000: please introduce yourself
[09:35] <Adri2000> I'm Adrien Cunin, 16 years old french student.
[09:35] <Adri2000> My work on universe/multiverse packages: bug fixes, merges/syncs, new upstream releases. Also some new packages, I now maintain two of them in Debian.
[09:35] <Adri2000> All of that is described on my wiki page, so take a look at it ;)
[09:35] <Adri2000> My plans as a MOTU: I will keep doing general motu stuff (bugs, merges, syncs, new upstream releases...), but also (more detailed on the wiki): collaboration with Debian (I already often file bugs in the Debian BTS), QA, help/sponsor/revu MOTU hopefuls/enthusiasts.
[09:35] <Adri2000> Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AdrienCunin | LP: https://launchpad.net/~adri2000 | Packages: https://launchpad.net/~adri2000/+packages
[09:35] <Adri2000> The main MOTUs I've worked with are gpocentek (he's here), crimsun (he sent an email to technical-board at lists.ubuntu.com) and also geser (I think he's here).
[09:35] <Keybuk> "In the past several months, Adrien has worked diligently with MOTU in
[09:35] <Keybuk> bug triaging, in merging and syncing Ubuntu universe source packages,
[09:35] <Keybuk> and in helping community members who are not as well versed with Debian
[09:35] <Keybuk> packaging on REVU. His dedication to assisting MOTU hopefuls, too, is
[09:35] <Keybuk> noteworthy and illustrates the positive influence that anyone can have
[09:35] <Keybuk> on the Ubuntu distribution. I welcome him as a ubuntu-dev member."
[09:35] <sabdfl> well done TheMuso, your work is really important, and i hope you continue to draw a community around you to drive this forward
[09:36] <TheMuso> sabdfl: Thanks.
[09:36] <Mithrandir> FWIW, I've seen a fair amount of sync requests from Adri2000 which so far have been good.
[09:36] <sabdfl> Keybuk: quoth?
[09:36] <Keybuk> sabdfl: crimsun on tb mailing list about Adri2000
[09:36] <gpocentek> he's done a great work on the packages I've reviewed/uploaded
[09:36] <mdz> Adri2000: where did you learn Debian packaging?
[09:37] <Adri2000> mdz: with gpocentek's lessons in #ubuntu-fr-classroom and then in #ubuntu-motu :)
[09:37] <sabdfl> NO BUGS AT ALL?
[09:38] <sabdfl> must be no users :-)
[09:39] <sabdfl> you've touched a lot of packages, Adri2000, is there a theme to your work?
[09:39] <mdz> gpocentek: can you be more specific about your experience?
[09:39] <Adri2000> sabdfl: not really, I don't have any favourite kind of package
[09:39] <mdz> gpocentek: what gives you the feeling that Adri2000 is ready to upload without review?
[09:40] <gpocentek> mdz: well, all the packages I've reviewed were good, with no need to fix them
[09:40] <Adri2000> sabdfl: just want to make universe even better :)
[09:40] <gpocentek> mdz: he is also really helpful to others, and I think that's because he knows how to do things well
[09:41] <mdz> Adri2000: how does homebank compare to gnucash?
[09:43] <Adri2000> well, I packaged homebank and merged gnucash but I can't really say because I don't use them very often (just to test)
[09:44] <mdz> Adri2000: really?  why would you want to maintain a package which is of no use to you?
[09:46] <Adri2000> IIRC, I found homebank on MOTU/Packages/Candidates (requests from users) and the website was looking for packagers, so I emailed upstream and packaged it
[09:46] <Adri2000> and I'm still in touch with upstream and still maintain it (bugs, new upstream releases), even if I don't use it daily
[09:47] <mdz> interesting
[09:47] <mdz> sabdfl: any further questions?
[09:47] <sabdfl> i'm quite happy with what i've seen - lots of package work, and goot references from motu and -core-dev. +1 from me
[09:48] <LaserJock> mdz: it's Universe, most of what we "maintain" we don't actually use
[09:48] <mdz> +1 as well, thanks and good luck
[09:48] <sabdfl> scott is away
[09:48] <sabdfl> so let's take 2 as quorum
[09:48] <sabdfl> welcome aboard!
[09:48] <mdz> LaserJock: it's different when you're a designated maintainer for a package, its primary caregiver
[09:48] <gpocentek> congrats Adri2000 :)
[09:48] <Adri2000> thanks all!
[09:49] <LaserJock> mdz: but we stress in Universe to not have a designated maintainer
[09:49] <LaserJock> it's MOTU maintained
[09:49] <mdz> that leaves metres, mlind, Praveen Kumar, prash from Keybuk's list
[09:49] <Lure> mdz, sabdfl: I applied when meeting started, so not sure if I should wait next round (MOTU Conucil)
[09:49] <sabdfl> lure, that's fine, join the end of the list
[09:50] <sabdfl> metres?
[09:50] <sabdfl> not here
[09:50] <sabdfl> mlind not here
[09:50] <sabdfl> praveen?
[09:50] <sabdfl> not here
[09:50] <mdz> LaserJock: indeed, we don't work exclusively, but to me it's surprising to package and devote special attention to a package one doesn't use at all
[09:50] <dholbach> I mailed them all (not mlind, because I've seen him around and thought he's show up)
[09:50] <sabdfl> prash - not here!
[09:50] <sabdfl> that was quick :-)
[09:50] <sabdfl> dholbach: i think this will all be easier with the new process
[09:51] <dholbach> sabdfl: yeah
[09:51] <mdz> Lure is here
[09:51] <sabdfl> roll on Lure :-)
[09:51] <Lure> Luka Renko, Kubuntu team member contributing for around a year, main interests
[09:51] <Lure> are laptop and network support. Applying for MOTU to offload sponsors for
[09:51] <Lure> some packages of my interest (eqonomize, soundkonverter, powersave, kpowersave).
[09:51] <Lure> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LukaRenko  LP: https://launchpad.net/~lure/+packages
[09:51] <mdz> Lure: who has been uploading your packages?
[09:51] <Lure> I mainly work with Kubuntu team (Riddell, Tonio_, Hobbsee
[09:52] <mdz> are any of them here?
[09:52] <Lure> Some universe upload were done also by crimsun, geser, bddebian
[09:52] <mdz> I've seen your name around, but I can't say that I'm familiar with your work
[09:53] <Lure> mdz: my primary work is actually on main stuff for Kubuntu laptop/network support
[09:53] <Lure> mdz: I was also on UDS-MTV
[09:53] <Lure> mdz: I apply for motu, primarily to get my universe work directly
[09:54] <sabdfl> Lure: how is the kubuntu community shaping up?
[09:54] <Lure> sabdfl: I think better and better which each release
[09:54] <mdz> Lure: I see, thanks
[09:54] <mdz> Lure: though I don't have any direct experience of your work
[09:54] <Lure> sabdfl: we have some coders now for bug squasing and 3-4 active core-devs
[09:55] <Lure> sabdfl: I can say each release we get quite some new names on board
[09:55] <mdz> Lure: it's best if the people you've worked with can tell the board about their experience working with you, as we can't know everything directly
[09:56] <Lure> mdz: yep, I applied late, so could not arrange to get them here
[09:57] <sabdfl> what about QA?
[09:57] <Lure> sabdfl: we have now kubunut-testers activity, kicked-off by mhb and hope we can get more interest
[09:58] <sabdfl> Lure: your packages uploaded list is impressive, clearly people trust you enough to upload
[09:58] <sabdfl> but i think it would be best to get some testimonials
[09:58] <sabdfl> with the new process, they could send a signed email testimonial to the MOTU council
[09:58] <sabdfl> could you pursue that with them?
[09:59] <Lure> sabdfl: I can wait another round (through council)
[09:59] <sabdfl> unless someone is available now that you have worked with?
[09:59] <sabdfl> who has sponsored most of your uploads?
[09:59] <Lure> sabdfl: Riddell and Tonio_
[09:59] <Lure> sabdfl: I ping them recently, but they do not seem to be around
[09:59] <mdz> it's problematic for us to make a decision on something as sensitive as broad upload privileges based only on information provided by the applicant
[10:00] <Lure> mdz: I am fine to go through conucil
[10:00] <sabdfl> (though clearly people have been willing to upload your packages)
[10:00] <sabdfl> ok, should be quick and easy
[10:01] <Lure> glad to test the new process ;-)
[10:01] <Lure> Hobbsee might say something about my work (but still most uploads were in main) ;-)
[10:02] <mdz> ok
[10:02] <Lure> so lets postpone it
[10:02] <mdz> thanks for your patience
[10:02] <mdz> on with the agenda: the MOTU council is next
[10:02] <Lure> mdz: no problem
[10:02] <mdz> dholbach: ?
[10:03] <dholbach> ok... the main processes are sorted out already, but there are some things to the motu council can not decide for themselves, like nomination process, term length, etc
[10:03] <mdz> dholbach: does the MOTU council already have CC approval?
[10:03] <dholbach> CC members told me that the TB was going to approve the MC
[10:04] <sabdfl> yes - we are happy, TB should approve and appoint
[10:04] <sabdfl> yay!
[10:04] <dholbach> shall we just go through the list on  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda ?
[10:04] <mdz> sure
[10:04] <mdz> first item is the nomination process
[10:05] <dholbach> ok, some people wanted to know more about the nomination process
[10:05] <mdz> I think council members should be nominated by MOTU, and confirmed by the tech board
[10:05] <Hobbsee> Lure: sorry, i didnt know :(
[10:05] <pochu> @now Madrid
[10:05] <Ubugtu> Current time in Europe/Madrid: January 30 2007, 22:05:49 - Current meeting: Technical Board
[10:06] <mdz> or possibly the reverse
[10:06] <sabdfl> ;-)
[10:07] <sabdfl> with the CC / TB, SABDFL nominates and community votes to confirm or select a subset of the nomination
[10:07] <sabdfl> i'd prefer the same for MOTU council
[10:07] <sabdfl> folks can of course say they are interested
[10:07] <mdz> it should be consistent with other team councils
[10:08] <dholbach> it makes sense to me
[10:08] <dholbach> any questions from any MOTUs about that?
[10:08] <mdz> the current draft doesn't specify any nomination at all, as far as I see
[10:08] <dholbach> (or MOTU hopefuls :))
[10:08] <dholbach> yes, that's right
[10:08] <LaserJock> so what is the proposal? TB nominates and MOTUs vote to confirm?
[10:08] <sabdfl> well
[10:08] <sabdfl> on the other hand
[10:09] <sabdfl> the TB is confirmed by ALL developers, including motu
[10:09] <sabdfl> so
[10:09] <ajmitch> sabdfl: are you familiar enough with various MOTUs who are involved?
[10:09] <LaserJock> that's what I was thinking
[10:09] <sabdfl> it might be simpler just to say "the TB appoint MOTU council" and be done
[10:09] <sabdfl> they will obviously try to get it right
[10:09] <sabdfl> and be sensitive to suggestions that they did not, if that happens
[10:10] <sabdfl> should we go with the lighter touch?
[10:11] <mdz> I'm happy with a process which is consistent with other team councils
[10:11] <LaserJock> I personally don't care as much how it's done ( I trust TB ) as that it does get done
[10:11] <mdz> nominations from TB and confirmation from MOTU sounds reasonable
[10:12] <Lure> mdz: fyi, Kubuntu council was nominated and elected by Kubuntu team members
[10:12] <sabdfl> i think the confirmation is excess bureacracy, but i've no problem if MOTU prefers it that way
[10:12] <Lure> mdz: not sure if this is same
[10:12] <LaserJock> Edubuntu Council was nominated and elected by Edubuntu people as well
[10:12] <sabdfl> in general should be nomination by the body that is getting reported to, then confirmation from the group they represent
[10:13] <sistpoty> sabdfl: I think confirmation is a good thing... gives motu's the feeling that they have some participation in the process as well
[10:13] <sabdfl> ok
[10:13] <sabdfl> both edubuntu and kubuntu jumped the queue, a little
[10:13] <sabdfl> but hey, they picked DAMN GOOD PEOPLE!
[10:14] <Hobbsee> bah.  fire us if you like :P
[10:14] <TheMuso> For the time I've been involved with MOTU, I've got the impression that it is a very close knit community.
[10:14] <sabdfl> let's agree on TB nomination, MOTU confirmation, and move on
[10:14] <mdz> agreed
[10:14] <dholbach> "Discuss ubuntumembers and ubuntu-core-dev membership requirements with CC and TB."
[10:14] <Hobbsee> among MOTU, i suspect that there are certain people that stand out, that would be good for the job, like there were for kubuntu
[10:14] <mdz> ubuntumembers?
[10:14] <Lure> mdz: I think similar could be done for Kubuntu/Edubuntu in future: CC nomination, team confirmation
[10:14] <dholbach> that doesn't make sense
[10:15] <mdz> ubuntu-core-dev guidelines are documented on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers
[10:15] <mdz> ubuntumembers are determined by the CC and its delegates
[10:15] <LaserJock> yeah, I was just going to say
[10:15] <dholbach> I think some people wanted to make sure that the list of requirements / things the MC wants to check for applicants is ok with the TB
[10:15] <mdz> TB interprets the -core-dev guidelines and approves new core developers
[10:16] <mdz> dholbach: likewise for ubuntu-dev; I've written down what I think are the fundamental traits of an Ubuntu developer
[10:16] <mdz> dholbach: the MOTU council should use those when considering applicants
[10:16] <sabdfl> i'd say 2 year term, staggered
[10:16] <dholbach> right, I think we can move on
[10:16] <sabdfl> so we nominate half for one year now, half for two years
[10:16] <LaserJock> but how we determaine if an applicant has those traits would be up to the MC?
[10:16] <sabdfl> then renew/replace the 1st half in a year
[10:16] <sabdfl> then it becomes regular 2-year appointments
[10:17] <sabdfl> also, MOTU would be granting membership
[10:17] <sabdfl> so they of course need to factor that in too
[10:17] <sabdfl> i.o.w. make ubuntu-dev a part of ubuntumembers
[10:17] <sabdfl> so folks don't have to go to two meetings
[10:17] <sistpoty> hm... not quite sure if 2 years is a bit too long... many of our "good" motu's moved from universe to main during shorter time
[10:17] <dholbach> 2 year is quite a while - are the other council memberships also that long?
[10:17] <sabdfl> once they are a -dev, they are a member
[10:17] <sabdfl> sistpoty: they can of course stay on the governance of MOTU
[10:18] <sabdfl> they would be experienced
[10:18] <LaserJock> Edubuntu Council is 2 releases (1 year)
[10:18] <Lure> dholbach: kubuntu council is 1 year
[10:18] <mdz> LaserJock: yes, though they should justify their decision when making it
[10:18] <sabdfl> i would want to have -core-dev representation on the council
[10:18] <TheMuso> There is imbrandon and crimsun who also are regular MOTU contributers who are core-dev.
[10:18] <dholbach> sistpoty: I don't think that doing things in 'main' hinders people from working with MOTUs
[10:18] <sabdfl> Lure, LaserJock: it gets tiresome to do the voting more often that once per year, and if you want a rolling council, then you need to vote at least twice during one term
[10:18] <Hobbsee> Lure: we must be coming up to that, surely?
[10:19] <sistpoty> dholbach: no, it doesn't... but from my experience ppl. will have much less time for universe then ;)
[10:19] <sabdfl> sistpoty: i suspect that will become less true as the pool grows
[10:19] <sabdfl> though it's definitely been true so far
[10:19] <sistpoty> sabdfl: I hope so :)
[10:20] <dholbach> sistpoty: I think that everybody on the MC will know what is expected from him/her and live up to that :)
[10:20] <sabdfl> -core-dev is hugely dependent on good work in motu
[10:21] <sabdfl> dholbach: do you have the list of proposed MC members we discussed?
[10:21] <dholbach> sabdfl: yeah
[10:21] <sabdfl> list 'em?
[10:22] <dholbach> sabdfl: we discussed crimsun, sistpoty, gpocentek and ajmitch
[10:22] <sabdfl> and you?
[10:22] <dholbach> and me
[10:23] <sabdfl> how about we nominate 3 for 2 year terms, and 2 for a one year term (they could be renewed)
[10:23] <sabdfl> alphabetically, a, c, d, g, s
[10:23] <sabdfl> how about we just nominate a, d, s for 2 year terms
[10:23] <sabdfl> and c, g for 1 year term?
[10:23] <sabdfl> there's no prejudice to the 1 year nominates
[10:24] <sabdfl> other than that we want to get the rolling going
[10:24] <Hobbsee> does crimsun have time to it, due to new work commitments?
[10:24] <sabdfl> don't think motu will have long meetings
[10:24] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: He'd probably just say yes anyway. :p
[10:24] <mdz> dholbach: have all of those people volunteered to stand?
[10:24] <dholbach> Hobbsee: I talked with him about that. He was fine with that.
[10:24] <dholbach> mdz: yes
[10:24] <mdz> ok then
[10:24] <sabdfl> should be more about availability to review candidates for -dev
[10:25] <sabdfl> if we covered all the timezones i would be happiest
[10:25] <Hobbsee> dholbach: ah right
[10:25] <sabdfl> then people can find a member of the council, make their case, and get a +1 in their own timezone
[10:25] <dholbach> and I think that after a few meetings the MC will have other processes sorted out nicely as well
[10:25] <sabdfl> right, aim should NOT be CC-style meetings :-)
[10:25] <sabdfl> just a "wise elders" group that can approve good folks who are doing good work
[10:25] <Hobbsee> sabdfl: haha.  just dont get any australian people to do it.
[10:26] <sabdfl> oh, we trust aussies despite heaps of experience
[10:26] <TheMuso> Thanks!!
[10:26] <sabdfl> dholbach: thoughts?
[10:26] <mdz> ajmitch is in one of those ridiculous time zones, no?
[10:26] <mdz> should be a good spread
[10:26] <sabdfl> really need two in a timezone
[10:27] <sabdfl> so if there are other good candidates interested, i'd be happy to hear from them
[10:27] <sabdfl> and make appointments in mid-cycle
[10:27] <sabdfl> we don't need to wait a year
[10:27] <sabdfl> the motu council could be 7-9 people easily
[10:27] <sistpoty> well... I'm quite a night owl, so I rather hang around with ajmitch than with dholbach ;)
[10:27] <Hobbsee> mdz: NZ.  and that's slightly better
[10:27] <Hobbsee> sabdfl: you may trust us, but 3am meetings suck.
[10:28] <sabdfl> dholbach could always also get a second opinion from a TB member
[10:28] <dholbach> I like the idea... what do other MOTUs think? Are you happy with the 1year/2year term rolling?
[10:28] <sabdfl> Hobbsee: idea would be to have only local folks in a meeting
[10:28] <mdz> it's valuable for the council to be spread out, so that hopefuls have someone to go to who will be around when they are
[10:28] <zul> im happy with that
[10:28] <sabdfl> so we could have one in sane hours for asia, with asian council members
[10:28] <sabdfl> not like TB where we try to have one meeting for the globe
[10:28] <sabdfl> i think this will be much more efficient
[10:28] <sabdfl> and easier on the motu council
[10:28] <sabdfl> will make it easier to get good folkstoparticipate
[10:29] <sabdfl> inthe council, and in -dev
[10:29] <LaserJock> dholbach: I'm fine with it I guess
[10:29] <sistpoty> it would certainly help creating -devs, but it might lead to confusion if the european meeting says x about a policy while the aussies say y
[10:30] <sistpoty> but I guess we could get that aligned somehow ;)
[10:30] <mdz> sistpoty: we should hope that the council communicate with one another :-)
[10:30] <LaserJock> exactly, hopefully most policy discussion would involve ML though
[10:30] <mdz> s/council/& members/
[10:30] <dholbach> I'm sure the MC will manage. :-)
[10:30] <mdz> we're 90 minutes in now; are there any further outstanding issues about the MOTU council?
[10:31] <sabdfl> good point on the consistency front
[10:31] <dholbach> Ok, seems we have clarified "Clarify the process for the next appointment." too, so there's only "Clarify the process for communication between TB and MC for ubuntu-dev membership approval." left
[10:31] <sabdfl> we should look out for that since this is the first time we're creating something that we want to work as a parallel team
[10:32] <sabdfl> MOTU council should make a note for each candidate
[10:32] <sabdfl> on why they were approved
[10:32] <sabdfl> then TB should review those quickly in each meeting
[10:32] <mdz> dholbach: what I'd like to see is a writeup for each applicant, with an explanation of the council's decision, sent to the tech board
[10:32] <mdz> so that we can see how the guidelines have been applied
[10:33] <dholbach> to the mailing list? no meeting-like reporting? for other decision too?
[10:33] <sabdfl> if there's inconsistency we might ask for someone on TB to ack each decision
[10:33] <mdz> i.e., review the applicant's work against UbuntuDevelopers
[10:33] <sabdfl> but for the moment, let's trust that it will just work
[10:33] <sabdfl> mailing list or wiki page
[10:33] <mdz> so that there's a concise record of the process
[10:33] <sabdfl> should be a public list
[10:33] <sabdfl> the TB list is private
[10:34] <dholbach> a mail with a link to the wiki would work too, hm? :)
[10:34] <sabdfl> perfectly :-)
[10:34] <dholbach> rock and roll :)
[10:34] <sabdfl> this just for approval cases
[10:34] <sabdfl> not for declines or "come back when you've done this"
[10:34] <dholbach> ok
[10:34] <dholbach> anything else regarding the MC? I'm happy
[10:34] <sabdfl> PUMPED?
[10:34] <ajmitch> sounds good
[10:34] <dholbach> ABSOLUTELY :-)
[10:34] <sistpoty> we need the final acks still ;)
[10:34] <mdz> right, there's no need to justify deferring an application until a later date
[10:35] <sabdfl> "like i'm your long lost best friend" :-)
[10:35] <dholbach> sabdfl: sure you are :-)
[10:35] <sabdfl> +1 from me
[10:35] <mdz> the council should feel free to do so if it has doubts
[10:35] <mdz> without any embarrassment for those involved
[10:35] <mdz> I'm in agreement
[10:35] <mdz> dholbach: will you document those changes so we can sign off on the final document?
[10:35] <sabdfl> again, fomr my perspective, any two folks on the council should be sufficient
[10:35] <dholbach> mdz: yes
[10:36] <sabdfl> so it doesn't bottleneck on quorum across timezones
[10:36] <mdz> dholbach: we can do that by mail with the full TB, and not wait for another meeting
[10:36] <dholbach> alright
[10:36] <mdz> it should be considered by all members of the tech board, and I don't want it to block on meetings
[10:36] <mdz> thanks
[10:36] <dholbach> thank you
[10:36] <mdz> next -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpAndSupportAccess
[10:36] <EtienneG> we can see some inside from SF are getting into the Ubuntu folklore ... :)
[10:36] <sabdfl> well done dholbach - this is a fantastic step
[10:36] <sabdfl> for the motu
[10:37] <mdz> mdke asked that we consider this proposal to change the help interface in the desktop
[10:37] <dholbach> sabdfl: we all have big expectations :-)
[10:37] <mdz> I did an initial review and asked for some clarifications
[10:37] <mdz> which he seems to have made
[10:39] <mdz> I like the idea of replacing the submenu with a clearer, more navigable page
[10:39] <mdz> the current menu is confusing
[10:41] <mdz> I think the page layout could use some tweaking
[10:41] <mdz> but the basic idea seems sound
[10:41] <sabdfl> in principle i think this is a good change
[10:41] <sabdfl> the offer of community and commercial support will get more prominence by release
[10:41] <sabdfl> i expect that to be a little contentious
[10:42] <sabdfl> nevertheless, the new proposal is more attractive than the four submenus
[10:42] <sabdfl> and more sensible
[10:42] <sabdfl> mdke finally talked me round :-)
[10:43] <mdz> ok then
[10:43] <mdz> I'll mark it as approved, and document the feedback
[10:43] <mdz> we can fine-tune the page as needed
[10:43] <mdz> next -- reportbug
[10:44] <mdz> we shipped reportbug in the default install in earlier releases
[10:44] <sabdfl> sorry
[10:44] <sabdfl> sec
[10:44] <sabdfl> do we have full HTML capability on that page?
[10:44] <mdz> yes
[10:44] <sabdfl> or is it just Yelp?
[10:44] <mdz> it's Yelp
[10:44] <mdz> so FSVO "full"
[10:45] <sabdfl> hmm
[10:45] <sabdfl> will ask the folks working on the web site to work with mdke on the page
[10:45] <sabdfl> need to be able to present a classy picture
[10:45] <sabdfl> ok, that's all from me
[10:45] <sabdfl> reportbug!
[10:45] <mdz> right, we stopped installing reportbug by default in edgy
[10:46] <mdz> because it doesn't support reporting bugs to launchpad, and other approaches were in development
[10:46] <mdz> we now have apport
[10:46] <mdz> which does what we wanted reportbug to do originally, and more
[10:46] <mdz> in the relevant bug report about this, it was suggested that having reportbug in main is confusing, since it's not our preferred bug reporting tool
[10:47] <mdz> since it was removed from desktop, the only reason it's still in main is that it's a dependency of dpkg-dev-el
[10:47] <mdz> (emacs extensions for Debian package development)
[10:48] <mdz> we can a) drop dpkg-dev-el to universe, b) modify dpkg-dev-el not to depend on reportbug (and appropriate modifications so it's not needed), or c) leave it alone
[10:48] <ajmitch> reportbug is still useful to keep, but probably not for shipping on the cd
[10:48] <mdz> it isn't shipped on the CD
[10:49] <sabdfl> b seems the least intrusive
[10:49] <mdz> yes, though it does mean diverging the package from Debian
[10:49] <mdz> and thus more merge work
[10:49] <sabdfl> would they not accept the patch?
[10:49] <LaserJock> < mdz> next -- reportbug
[10:49] <LaserJock> bah, sorry
[10:51] <sid> wow, I'm getting 1 kilobyte a second from Farmingdale's wireless
[10:51] <mdz> I don't think having reportbug in main is particularly confusing
[10:51] <mdz> and it's useful for reporting bugs to projects which use debbugs (including Debian)
[10:51] <sabdfl> the reportbug description could refer peopleto apport for standard ubuntu bug reporting?
[10:51] <mdz> but I don't have strong feelings either way, which is why I brought it here
[10:52] <mdz> this has been a long meeting already, though, and I'm happy to take it to email on technical-board@
[10:53] <sabdfl> i'm happy with b or c
[10:53] <sabdfl> mdz, your call
[10:53] <mdz> ok
[10:53] <mdz> any other BRIEF business? ;-)
[10:54] <sabdfl> done!
[10:54] <sabdfl> and well done
[10:54] <mdz> thanks, all
[10:54] <sabdfl> very pleased to see the MOTU reaching this point
[10:55] <sabdfl> welcome aboard, new devs
[10:55] <mdz> adjourned
[10:55] <mdke> (sorry for missing the meeting - was a long day)
[10:55] <mdke> thanks for discussing the spec anyway
[10:55] <mdz> mdke: you can review the log
[10:56] <mdke> mdz: sure
[10:56] <ajmitch> thanks for sitting through & approving the council
[10:57] <sistpoty> yay, thanks for the MC thingie :)
[10:57] <sabdfl> is there a scribe?
[10:58] <mdz> I summarized the meeting in Issue30
[10:59] <mdz> the scribes have their first meeting scheduled this week
[10:59] <mdz> that meeting should be summarized if any ever was ;-)
[10:59] <dholbach> night sabdfl, night mdz
[10:59] <mdz> night dholbach
[11:42] <ausimage> sabdfl: You still up?
[11:42] <sabdfl> sure
[11:42] <ausimage> hey good...
[11:42] <ausimage> I am one of the people starting Scribes
[11:43] <tonyyarusso> ?
[12:12] <willys_fueguino> @schedule ushuaia
[12:12] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Argentina/Ushuaia: 31 Jan 17:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 19:00: Xubuntu | 31 Jan 20:00: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 17:00: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 09:00: Edubuntu