[12:16] <Riddell> Jucato: ready to introduce yourself?
[12:16] <Jucato> yep. My wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jucato
[12:16] <Hobbsee> manchicken: cool - interested in speccing them out at all?
[12:16] <manchicken> Hobbsee: So the answer to your question is I like working with others' ideas and I'm okay coming up with my own as well.
[12:17] <Hobbsee> ie, would you be a candidate for coming to UDS
[12:17] <Jucato> Hi! I'm Juan Carlos Torres from the Philippines. I've been using Linux and Kubuntu for a year now. My main contributions to the Kubuntu community so far has been user support in the forums and in IRC, some bug filing and triaging, and a few guides. I've also been involved with upstream KDE in the same areas (support, bug triaging, documentation). I'm currently self-studying programming (C++) and I'm interested in getting involved in the more
[12:17] <Jucato> "technical" aspects of Kubuntu development.
[12:17] <manchicken> I finally get jucato's name!
[12:17] <Jucato> lol :)
[12:17] <manchicken> Very clever.
[12:17] <nixternal> haha
[12:18] <Hobbsee> hehe
[12:18] <Jucato> can't take credit for that name though. some crazy guys from college coined it. and it kinda stuck
[12:18] <Jucato> heh :)
[12:18] <manchicken> Jucato: You should take credit also for keeping #kubuntu in line.  Without you that channel would be nothing but flames.
[12:19] <Jucato> yuriy: lol :)
[12:19] <Riddell> Jucato: which do you think is more active for kubuntu users, ubuntuforums or kubuntuforums?
[12:19] <Jucato> I think Kubuntu forums
[12:20] <Jucato> I have feeds in akregator for both forums and monitor the amount of Kubuntu/KDE questions that come in and get answered
[12:20] <manchicken> That's a great idea, never thought of that.
[12:20] <Riddell> Jucato: are there enough people answering kubuntu questions in the forums?
[12:21] <nixternal> Riddell: I have to agree, Kubuntuforums.net is the winner!
[12:21] <gnomefreak> can someone ping me when we get to the patches from opensuse topic?
[12:21] <Jucato> that's one part of the problem, imho KFN lacks in the number of knowledgeable users in some areas like hardware
[12:21] <Riddell> gnomefreak: sure
[12:21] <gnomefreak> ty
[12:22] <Jucato> I mean, ubuntuforums enjoys the numbers and the bulk of the Ubuntu community
[12:22] <Hobbsee> Jucato: would you be interested in gettign the kubuntu forums made official, and how would you go about doing that?
[12:22] <Hobbsee> or is it better, in your opinion, to shove it all in ubuntuforums?
[12:22] <Jucato> Yes, very much interested. But based on past events, there seemed to be some issues regarding that, coming from ubuntuforums
[12:23] <Hobbsee> who's the admin of kubuntu forums?
[12:23] <Jucato> I'd probably approach the Forum Council after I have talked with the KFN owner (Open Source)
[12:23] <Riddell> doing that might get a bit political :)
[12:23] <nixternal> Hobbsee: personally I would seperate for 1 reason, Kubuntu forums seems to take what they have and push it to the wiki, where as Ubuntu forums take it to 3 party documentation repos
[12:23] <Jucato> yeah, that's what I'm afraid of...
[12:23] <Hobbsee> Riddell: true, possibly.
[12:23] <Jucato> claydoh will be there to help though :D
[12:23] <Hobbsee> nixternal: neat :)
[12:23] <claydoh> :D
[12:23] <Riddell> Jucato: does kubuntu-ph do anything, or is it just a launchpad team?
[12:23] <Hobbsee> Riddell: now if it was marketed as kubuntu-centric forums....
[12:24] <Jucato> Riddell: just a launchpad team. currently there's no reason to separate yet from ubuntu-ph
[12:24] <Jucato> no practical reason, that is
[12:24] <nixternal> no matter what you all think of Jucato :)  He is a damn good assett I must say. He tends to help out everywhere he can fit in and has even offered to learn some DocBook/XML which I need major help with
[12:24] <Jucato> heh :)
[12:25] <manchicken> And he's always there to help me google when I'm banging my head against a wall.  heh
[12:25] <Hobbsee> hehe
[12:25] <manchicken> Two googles are better than one.
[12:25] <claydoh> I agree as well
[12:25] <Riddell> Jucato: what sort of admin do you do in #kubuntu?
[12:25] <Hobbsee> he actually watches it and responds, i suspect :P
[12:26] <Jucato> Riddell: I'm just a new op, so not that much. just making reminders when people get offtopic or unruly
[12:26] <Jucato> made a few kicks/bans, but I unban after 24 hours
[12:26] <manchicken> heh
[12:26] <Jucato> most of the time, though, I do support in #kubuntu (even when I should be studying...)
[12:26] <Hobbsee> Jucato: you're following #ubuntu-ops, and the meeting yesterday presumably?
[12:27] <n8k99_> Jucato is a pretty good traffic cop in #kubuntu
[12:27] <Jucato> Hobbsee: yep :)
[12:27] <manchicken> Yeah, he shuts me down quite frequently ;)
[12:27] <Jucato> lol
[12:27] <Hobbsee> manchicken: get a weapon like a Long Pointy Stick of DOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  and you'll be fine :P
[12:27] <Jucato> manchicken: hey I'm pretty lenient with you... I let you speak your mind. but keep an eye on you... :P
[12:27] <manchicken> Well, what I like is that he actually explains WHY things are a problem.
[12:27] <Tonio_> -1 for me that's better for your studies ^^
[12:27] <Jucato> heh Tonio_ I'm just self-studying
[12:27] <allee> Jucato gets+2  from me ;)
[12:28] <manchicken> I never would have though of the reasons why he said it is important to stay on topic.
[12:28] <Tonio_> Jucato: seriously, +1 for great support, wich is very important for the distro
[12:28] <Hobbsee> definetly a +1 from me
[12:28] <Riddell> Jucato is +1 from me for doing much needed user support
[12:28] <allee> yeah +1.  No doubt!
[12:28] <Hobbsee> welcome to membership, Jucato!
[12:28] <manchicken> It's important to have an op that'll explain why too much normal offtopic conversation may be disruptive.
[12:28] <Jucato> thanks :)
[12:28] <manchicken> +
[12:28] <Tonio_> welcome aboard Jucato :)
[12:29] <allee> congrats Jucato
[12:29] <Jucato> yay!! :)
[12:29] <n8k99_> Yay!
[12:29] <Hawkwind> Congrats Jucato!!!!!!!!!!!
[12:29] <claydoh> congrats Jucato!!
[12:29] <manchicken> w00t@jucato
[12:29] <Hobbsee> manchicken: indeed.   the op stuff is being redone, anyway.  and somehow i'm getting the most votes to being on the council, so far.  scary.
[12:29] <Jucato> thanks!!! :)
[12:29] <Riddell> any other memberships?
[12:29] <yuriy> congrats Jucato and manchicken
[12:29] <nixternal> congrats Jucato!!!
[12:29] <Jucato> Hobbsee: I still haven't added my vote there :P
[12:29] <Lure> congrats Jucato
[12:29] <Hobbsee> Riddell: can i have admin access to the kubuntu-devel ML, btw.
[12:30] <Hobbsee> it's a pain when my mail gets moderated.
[12:30] <Hobbsee> and you're not around
[12:30] <Hobbsee> also to kubuntu-members LP team, to decline some people who obviously arent interested still
[12:30] <Riddell> Hobbsee: yes, although I don't know if you really want it, let's talk after
[12:31] <Riddell> Lure: your item
[12:31] <Hobbsee> Riddell: okay.
[12:31] <Lure> Riddell: I though Tonio_ is first
[12:31] <Riddell> oh yes, it's Tonio_
[12:31] <Tonio_> yes, I'd like to rediscuss media patches inclusion for several reasons :
[12:31] <Hobbsee> it's Tonio_, but it's me who wrote it on the agenda :P
[12:31] <Tonio_> - They create lots of issues
[12:32] <Tonio_> - they differ a lot from the standard kde, which makes it hard for users to get support on the web
[12:32] <Hobbsee> these are the media:/ to /media ones, presumably?
[12:32] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: yes
[12:32] <Tonio_> the point is that they create lots of problems, see bugs 70217, 78811, 61946, 82094, 70796
[12:32] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 70217 in kdebase "KubuntuKDEMedia changes: wrong desktop icons of removable devices plugged before login" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/70217
[12:32] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 78811 in kdebase "CAN'T UMOUNT REMOVABLE MEDIA (dup-of: 70217)" [Undecided,Needs info]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/78811
[12:32] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 70217 in kdebase "KubuntuKDEMedia changes: wrong desktop icons of removable devices plugged before login" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/70217
[12:32] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 61946 in kdebase "[Edgy Data Loss]  umount progress dialog missing" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/61946
[12:32] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 82094 in kubuntu-meta "USB safe unmount from desktop data corruption (dup-of: 61946)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/82094
[12:32] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 61946 in kdebase "[Edgy Data Loss]  umount progress dialog missing" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/61946
[12:32] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 70796 in kdebase "KDE storage media applet not showing unmounted removable mediums" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/70796
[12:32] <Tonio_> sorry for this :)
[12:33] <Riddell> isn't "umount progress dialog missing" a problem in upstream KDE too?
[12:33] <Hobbsee> i didnt think the edgy data loss was due to that
[12:33] <Tonio_> also, even if that's not reported on launchpad, we get crappy icon names on the desktop
[12:33] <Hobbsee> Riddell: yeah it is, but they all mount their removable media as sync
[12:33] <Tonio_> Riddell: oups true, you're right on that point
[12:33] <Hobbsee> yuriy: should be able to give us more bugs on it, most likely
[12:33] <Lure> Tonio_: not all of these are media patches issues
[12:34] <Lure> Tonio_: umount is problem in kde > 3.5.2
[12:34] <Tonio_> in the list of problems, tou also have issues using qtparted for example, since you cannot graphically unmount the disk to format it
[12:34] <Riddell> which disk?
[12:34] <Tonio_> Lure: how to unmount a usb key on kubuntu ? no way
[12:34] <Tonio_> Riddell: a usb key for example
[12:35] <Riddell> right click -> "Safely Remove" ?
[12:35] <Tonio_> the right-click/unmount media option misses, which is a pure pain in some cases
[12:35] <yuriy> hmm? Tonio_ got all the ones i've seen.  Bug 32159 has the problems that come up without the patches (but that's pre-dapper, maybe things have improved upstream?)
[12:35] <Lure> Tonio_: Safely remove
[12:35] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 32159 in kdebase "system:// protocol" [Medium,Fix released]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/32159
[12:35] <allee> Tonio_: what's your advise: media needs some work, or, getter get rid of it?   media:/ had also lots of issues
[12:35] <Tonio_> Riddell: remove removes the media, doesn't unmount
[12:35] <Tonio_> Riddell: the difference is that the media doesn't appear in qtparted for example
[12:36] <Tonio_> allee: yeah I know, media:/ issues with gtk apps
[12:36] <allee> Tonio_: and KDE apps as well :(
[12:36] <Lure> allee: +1
[12:36] <Tonio_> allee: not that much really, it is just a matter of patching a desktop file most of the time
[12:36] <allee> has anyone free time slots to work on media?
[12:36] <Tonio_> very few issues with kde apps
[12:37] <yuriy> here's another one not so much caused by, but just an incompleteness in the patches: bug 72279
[12:37] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 72279 in openoffice.org "Save as still using media:/ kio instead of true path" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/72279
[12:37] <Tonio_> allee: but to me, for example, going to /media to browse an audio cd and get a blank page..... that's really evil
[12:38] <allee> Tonio_: yeah, that most anoying  (plus mounting when 'do nothing' is selected
[12:38] <yuriy> some of the issues that used to come up with kde apps (like kaffeine) have been fixed since dapper as well
[12:38] <Riddell> Tonio_: have you spoken to sime about this?
[12:38] <Tonio_> allee: yes, that too, and the point of not beeing able to "unmount" is a nightmare for qtparted
[12:39] <Tonio_> Riddell: yes, but that's really very hard to fix according to him
[12:39] <Tonio_> Riddell: that's the reason the desktop icon still uses audiocd:/
[12:39] <allee> Tonio_: I would like that media open media:/  but clicking on an icon in media:/ emits the tranlated path.   but that's not easily possible
[12:39] <Tonio_> it was like impossible to map audiocd:/ to /media/cdrom
[12:39] <Tonio_> and also the names on the desktop are a bit crappy
[12:40] <Tonio_> "disk" on a french desktop is worse than the standard "Removable Media 256 MB"
[12:40] <Tonio_> on an english desktop orry
[12:40] <Tonio_> so in my opinion, as feisty is the latest kde 3 release
[12:40] <PupUserfaa491> hey any girls in here? prolly not eh
[12:40] <allee> Mhmm, anyone knowing the involed code?  Is it realistic to get these issues fixed?
[12:41] <Tonio_> so presumably the latest stable version before feisty+2, we should improve the patches on remove them
[12:41] <Lure> allee: I suspect only Sime for now
[12:41] <Riddell> PupUserfaa491: don't disturb the meeting
[12:41] <PupUserfaa491> ridell u should suck my cock u fagget
[12:41] <Jucato> hm?
[12:41] <Tonio_> can someone kick that asshole please ?
[12:41] <manchicken> Wow.
[12:41] <manchicken> What a prick.
[12:41] <Lure> Jucato: where are you ops rights
[12:41] <Hobbsee> i dont have ops
[12:41] <PupUserfaa491> wow thats the most excitment ive seen inhere
[12:42] <Jucato> Lure: only in #kubuntu and -ops
[12:42] <PupUserfaa491> u siad asshole
[12:42] <PupUserfaa491> ur a bad person
[12:42] <Hobbsee> !ops
[12:42] <manchicken> Nice.
[12:42] <manchicken> What a class act.
[12:42] <Tonio_> I love the "ignore" functionnality of irc
[12:42] <illovae> ohayo :)
[12:42] <Hobbsee> nalioth: PupUserfaa491
[12:42] <yuriy> g2g dinner
[12:42] <PupUserfaa491> it 3 o clock u fag
[12:42] <Hobbsee> thanks mate
[12:43] <Jucato> thanks
[12:43] <manchicken> Much thanks ^_^
[12:43] <yuriy> wow
[12:43] <Tonio_> so that's my opinion concerning the patches, very interesting to test for edgy
[12:43] <Tonio_> but really not mature enough for a stable release, so to be improved or temporary removed
[12:43] <Riddell> Tonio_: I'm entirely undecided on the media patch question
[12:43] <Lure> Tonio_: can we get a list of issues grouped together on wiki page and prioritize them?
[12:43] <Tonio_> since they create as many issues as fixed problems
[12:43] <Riddell> seems like it creates problems and fixes them
[12:44] <Tonio_> Riddell: yes that's the point
[12:44] <Tonio_> Riddell: but standard kde problems are well known, it is easy to find a solution over the net
[12:44] <Tonio_> the kubuntu specific issues aren't
[12:44] <Riddell> Lure: but would anyone fix them?
[12:44] <Tonio_> that's the point
[12:45] <Lure> Riddell: we need to talk with SIme_, I am also willing to look into it after FF
[12:45] <Tonio_> Lure, Riddell: I'll try to make a list of all known problems, categorized by importance, and fixed issues
[12:45] <Lure> Riddell: for me it would be a step back if we remove it
[12:45] <Tonio_> then we'll balance and make a decision next meeting, okay ?
[12:45] <Tonio_> Lure: hum, there is too much to do on those patches for feisty
[12:45] <Lure> Tonio_: fine with me - we can drop them anytime until Beta I suppose
[12:45] <Riddell> ok, procrastinate while you two look at the issues
[12:46] <Riddell> thanks Lure, Tonio_
[12:46] <Tonio_> Lure: lots of users are complaning they have to rebuild kdebase without the patches since lots of multimedia related things don't work for them
[12:46] <allee> great
[12:46] <Tonio_> that's a pitty
[12:46] <Riddell> manchicken: your item
[12:46] <Hobbsee> fortunately, this should be fixed in kde4 anyway
[12:46] <manchicken> yup
[12:46] <manchicken> Tonio_: I had to build amarok for that reason
[12:47] <manchicken> Okay, so I've been thinking of several different ways to do changelogs in adept.
[12:47] <manchicken> I had a couple ideas.
[12:47] <manchicken> I could take a copout and open it in kedit/kate/registered-text/plan-editor...
[12:48] <manchicken> I could display a dialog with a disabled line text widget.
[12:48] <manchicken> I could make it one big label
[12:48] <manchicken> I could go on and on.
[12:48] <manchicken> I think it's obvious to figure out which is the easiest, but I wanted some more ideas.
[12:48] <manchicken> Because 2 and 3 are the same idea essentially.
[12:48] <Riddell> my preference is for whatever synaptic does :)
[12:48] <manchicken> And I'm not okay with only 2 options.
[12:49] <manchicken> What?  You want me to use synaptic? ;)
[12:49] <manchicken> I guess I'll have to install it.
[12:49] <Riddell> no no, but since we're copying their feature may as well copy the UI too
[12:49] <manchicken> I've never used synaptic.
[12:49] <Jucato> heh :)
[12:49] <manchicken> Adept and apt-get CLI meet my needs, so I'll have to research that.
[12:50] <Riddell> for adpet-updater it shouldn't show the whole changelog, only the changes since the currently installed version
[12:50] <manchicken> If anybody else had any other ideas, I'm more than interested in hearing them.
[12:50] <manchicken> Right.
[12:50] <manchicken> changelogs.ubuntu has different files for each version.
[12:50] <manchicken> I haven't combed them yet, but I suspect that they're actually specific to the version.
[12:50] <Riddell> another point is that the changelogs aren't user focused, they are developer focused, so it should be marked as "Developer Changes", not just "Changes"
[12:51] <claydoh> good point
[12:51] <manchicken> Ah.
[12:51] <manchicken> That's good.
[12:51] <manchicken> I'll need to make sure I'm keeping my audience in mind.
[12:51] <manchicken> It'd be neat if we had the ability to have before and after screenshots for when we have UI changes.
[12:51] <Riddell> and I'd go for a non-editable qtextedit
[12:51] <Jucato> although some users are curious about what's the update about, I doubt they'd easily understand that changelogs anyway
[12:51] <allee> manchicken: and they are writen in english
[12:52] <manchicken> allee: Is kbabel too terrible to work with that?
[12:52] <Riddell> we get a lot of requests for changelogs in adept_updater
[12:52] <manchicken> Yeah, it's something I've wanted.
[12:52] <Lure> Jucato: the ones in -updates might be useful - SRU requires more descriptive changelogs
[12:53] <Riddell> I can't see any easy way to do translations on them
[12:53] <allee> manchicken: never tries.  With all the slang I don't expect much
[12:53] <Jucato> Lure: ah nice to know that :)
[12:53] <manchicken> allee: True.
[12:53] <Lure> allee: ;-)
[12:53] <manchicken> It would be nice if we had a group of people who helped with that, but that task would be quite daunting.
[12:53] <Hobbsee> as long as you can copy from the changelogs
[12:54] <manchicken> Yeah, I can.
[12:54] <manchicken> I already have code in place to give me the proper location for the changelog.
[12:54] <Hobbsee> ie, as long as the user can, from within adept/adept_updater
[12:54] <Riddell> manchicken: ok to move on?
[12:54] <manchicken> Well, the way adept is designed if it works in one, it'll work in all.
[12:54] <manchicken> Riddell: Sure.  I'm satisfied ^_^
[12:55] <manchicken> s/it'll work/it can work/
[12:55] <allee> mhmm, 2 are two use cases:  security updates.  text is technical but understandable.   b)  installs software or new upstream version: then the upstream changelog/NEWS is much more interesting
[12:55] <Riddell> Lure: your item
[12:55] <Lure> I just wanted to check what are the plans for some flagship KDE apps for feisty: k3b, digikam, amarok, konversation
[12:56] <Lure> some of them have planned releases soon and we should know if we can fit them in feisty schedule
[12:56] <Riddell> konversation should be in sync with our release schedule again
[12:56] <Lure> and if anybody is working on prerelease packages
[12:56] <Tonio_> Lure: I'll probably do k3b
[12:56] <Riddell> k3b trueg has promised me to have a schedule by feature freeze, if 1.0 isn't out in time he doesn't want us to use release candidates
[12:56] <Lure> Riddell: good, digikam 0.9.1 was supposed to be, but will be a bit late now
[12:57] <Lure> Tonio_: seaLne is already working on k3b
[12:57] <Tonio_> Lure: yeah just saw that, so let's go with this
[12:57] <Lure> my concern is that new apps also have new depends and those might require MIR
[12:57] <Tonio_> Lure: I'll have to test the kdesktop implementation
[12:57] <Riddell> hmm, amarok needing a new libgpod isn't good
[12:57] <Riddell> but it's out next week isn't it?  so should be do-able
[12:57] <Tonio_> Lure: I didn't receive any response for the patch we did
[12:57] <Lure> Riddell: kipi-plugins also need new libgpod
[12:57] <Hobbsee> Lure: amarok's doing imbrandon.  er, other way around.
[12:57] <manchicken> Is amarok going to have libmtp by default?
[12:58] <Riddell> Lure: why does kipi-plugins use libgpod?
[12:58] <Lure> Riddell: and digikam 0.9.1 needs new package (libkexiv2)
[12:58] <Lure> Riddell: yes
[12:58] <Riddell> manchicken: already does
[12:58] <allee> Riddell: for the new ipodexport plugin
[12:58] <Lure> Riddell: for video/photo export to iPod
[12:58] <manchicken> Riddell: Let me guess... in feisty? ;)
[12:58] <Jucato> Hobbsee: I'll ask Sho_ about it
[12:58] <allee> I've downloaded today the libgpod 0.4.2 that are currently stuck in debian NEW.  Good candidate for a -0ubuntu1 version
[12:58] <Jucato> just saw :)
[12:59] <Riddell> Lure: I think if digikam needs new libkexif that's OK, there's nothing else major depending on it
[12:59] <Lure> Riddell: do we need to push rc/beta versions in archive before FF in order to each upgrade to released version later
[12:59] <Hobbsee> allee: the sources are already in ubuntu
[12:59] <Hobbsee> of libgpod 0.4.2
[12:59] <Lure> or should we hope to get UVF exception
[12:59] <Hobbsee> right, couple of weeks is konversation
[12:59] <Lure> Hobbsee: really?
[12:59] <Riddell> Lure: best to just get an UVF I think
[01:00] <Lure> Riddell: ok, might be tough to get them...
[01:00] <Mithrandir> Lure: getting UVFs is easy enough assuming that you have a sensible plan
[01:00] <allee> Riddell: not libkexif (no longer used) a new (not yet releases lib) libkexiv2.    next kipi-plugins (far away), digikam 0.9.1 and next showimg release will use it
[01:01] <Lure> Mithrandir: even if they add features?
[01:01] <Hobbsee> msarah@LongPointyStick:~$ madison libgpod
[01:01] <Hobbsee>    libgpod | 0.4.2-0ubuntu1 | http://mirror.pacific.net.au feisty/main Sources
[01:01] <Hobbsee>    libgpod | 0.4.2-0ubuntu1 | http://archive.ubuntu.com feisty/main Sources
[01:01] <Hobbsee> Lure: yep
[01:01] <Lure> Hobbsee: great
[01:01] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: including "upstream wont release earlier, it's mostly bugfixes?"
[01:01] <Mithrandir> Lure: feature freeze refers to internal development, not external.
[01:01] <Riddell> allee: oh, well in that case it can't break anything else :)
[01:01] <Mithrandir> Hobbsee: yes, if upstream is working together with us to make sure we have something good for feisty, that's fine.
[01:01] <Tonio_> Riddell: concerning digikam, what is the ubuntu way to do for a new version of a lib ?
[01:02] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: excellent.  they are.
[01:02] <Lure> Mithrandir: ok, good to know - so we just need to ensure that it is very stable upload
[01:02] <allee> is exiv2 already in main?
[01:02] <Tonio_> Riddell: from revu to universe, then main inclusion report etc ... ?
[01:02] <Mithrandir> I'd like you to mail ubuntu-devel about this beforehand, though, not assume that all is good in the end.
[01:02] <Mithrandir> allee: yse.
[01:02] <Mithrandir> yes, even
[01:02] <Lure> allee: yes
[01:02] <Tonio_> or is that directly uploadable as previous version is already in the repos ?
[01:02] <allee> good
[01:02] <Tonio_> allee: no we just have libkexif1
[01:03] <Lure> Mithrandir: fine, you cannot expect 100% accetance always
[01:03] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: as in now, or when it releases?
[01:03] <allee> libkexif1 is dead
[01:03] <allee> will be replaced by libkexiv2
[01:03] <Mithrandir> Hobbsee: a plan nowish would be good.
[01:03] <Tonio_> allee: I know, but I wanted to know what is the way to get it in....
[01:03] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: okay
[01:03] <Mithrandir> (so not necessarily today, but before FF)
[01:03] <Hobbsee> !schedule
[01:03] <Riddell> Lure: fancy doing that e-mail then?
[01:04] <Riddell> or anyone else..
[01:04] <Lure> Riddell, Mithrandir: so just a list of apps with depends that we plan to include after FF?
[01:04] <Riddell> Lure: and expected release dates
[01:05] <Mithrandir> Lure: and preferably links to the discussion with upstream where they agree to work with you, and release dates, yes.
[01:05] <Lure> Riddell: will try to collect this on wiki so that everybody can contribute
[01:05] <Tonio_> allee: we should first get libkexiv2 in the archives
[01:05] <allee> Tonio_: well, first we need a tarball ;)
[01:05] <Mithrandir> estimates are fine, but please try to make them as precise as possible.
[01:05] <Tonio_> allee: isn't it released ?
[01:05] <allee> Tonio_: released tarball I mean.
[01:05] <Lure> Mithrandir: ok, will do - thanks
[01:05] <Hobbsee> i'll do the konversation related email
[01:05] <allee> Tonio_: no.  still discussing API
[01:05] <Tonio_> allee: hehe okay :)
[01:06] <Lure> Hobbsee: thanks, I will do digikam with allee and k3b is handled by seaLne
[01:06] <allee> Tonio_: I assume it will be release together with digikam 0.9.1-beta1
[01:06] <Lure> Hobbsee: is imbrandon still taking care of amarok?
[01:06] <Hobbsee> Lure: he is, but i'll do it if he doesnt.
[01:06] <Tonio_> Lure: I don't think so.....
[01:07] <Hobbsee> Lure: he's very busy at work.  he said he'd do it though
[01:07] <Hobbsee> if not, i'll do it again
[01:07] <manchicken> Riddell: I'd like to talk process too if we get time at the end of the meeting.
[01:07] <manchicken> Just recognizing some keywords that bring questions to mind ^_^
[01:07] <Riddell> manchicken: ok
[01:07] <Lure> ok, let's do it over wiki so everybody can contribute and jump in, then we will send e-mail
[01:07] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: I'll ping sealne concerning k3b since there are scripts and other things to test for the multimedia spec
[01:07] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: cool
[01:08] <Riddell> Lure: your item next
[01:08] <Lure> We have two SRU for edgy in -proposed: not sure if anybody is testing them
[01:08] <Riddell> good thing manchicken is still on edgy
[01:09] <manchicken> heh
[01:09] <Riddell> Lure: have you poked #kubuntu-testers?  there's usually edgy people in there willing to try stuff
[01:09] <manchicken> I can run some cases ^_^
[01:09] <Lure> people on edgy would need to enable -proposed repository and report back
[01:09] <Lure> Riddell: did not know that this exists - is this what mhb started?
[01:09] <Tonio_> Lure: I emailed Simon concerning this, no response yet
[01:09] <Riddell> Lure: it is yes
[01:10] <Lure> Riddell: ok, then I will ping him when around
[01:10] <Riddell> and talking of SRU, we should look at fixing qt for scribus in dapper and/or edgy
[01:10] <Tonio_> Lure: also we have to prepare SRU for knetworkmanager and kdebase, but well if it takes 2 month to get them released.....
[01:10] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: feisty will be out quicker :P
[01:10] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: that's the problem :)
[01:11] <Lure> Tonio_: I know, those two were stuck for long
[01:11] <Riddell> Tonio_: with new archive admins it should be much faster than that
[01:11] <Tonio_> Riddell: I hope so....
[01:11] <Lure> Tonio_: but I think pitti is now on archive too, so it is speeding up
[01:12] <Riddell> Lure: so, ping #kubuntu-testers, and ask on kubuntu-devel mailing list too
[01:12] <Tonio_> 2006-11-28, that's the date I wrote the digikam SRU.....
[01:12] <Riddell> Lure: also #ubuntu-bugs is ment to be there for SRUs
[01:12] <Lure> Riddell: will do
[01:12] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: can you give back libgpod on all arches please?
[01:12] <Riddell> Lure: oh and Canonical has a new KDE using QA dude!
[01:12] <Hobbsee> Riddell: yay!
[01:12] <Lure> Riddell: true, but we need kubuntu guys
[01:12] <Riddell> Lure: so ping bdmurray too
[01:13] <Lure> Riddell: what is huis nick?
[01:13] <Riddell> ^^
[01:13] <Lure> ok, nice to know
[01:13] <Hobbsee> right, libgpod is sitting in depwait.
[01:14] <Riddell> Lure: ok, your item next again
[01:14] <Lure> I just wanted to check remaining features we want to sneak before FF
[01:14] <Riddell> I'm working on software-properties for the new sources.list editor
[01:14] <Riddell> seems to be going well
[01:14] <Lure> I still plan to do laptop keys for suspend/hibernate; not sure what is the status of ksynaptic inclusion?
[01:15] <Lure> Tonio_: ?
[01:15] <Riddell> and mvo has merged the dist-upgrader and will upload after Herd
[01:15] <Tonio_> Lure: I patched it to use systemsettings
[01:15] <Riddell> we can't include ksynaptics in main, it needs manual changes to the xorg.conf file
[01:15] <Tonio_> Lure: no way to get main inclusion on that point since requires touching xorg.conf
[01:15] <Lure> Tonio_: so will we MIR and ship it?
[01:15] <Lure> ok, so will write in spec the status
[01:15] <Tonio_> Lure: no, but it'll go cleanly in systemsettings when installed
[01:16] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: did you push those changes to debian as well?
[01:16] <Riddell> nixternal: how are the docs?
[01:16] <Hobbsee> fabo maintains it.
[01:16] <Riddell> nixternal: when is doc freeze?
[01:16] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: not at the moment since that requires systemsettings patches...
[01:16] <Lure> I had plans to include networkstatus from suse, but am lacking time before FF
[01:16] <Lure> so if anybody would take this over, I would be very happy
[01:16] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: ahh, okay
[01:16] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: once the patches will be officially released, then I will do
[01:16] <Riddell> Lure: networkstatus being the kdepim patch?
[01:16] <Hobbsee> Lure: FF != to new package freeze, is it?
[01:17] <Tonio_> Riddell: + kopete and knetworkmanager
[01:17] <Lure> Riddell: yep: kded module + kdepim patch
[01:17] <manchicken> One thing that gets me about all of those is that not all of them work well.  networkmanager doesn't seem to work for me under kubuntu but it did under suse.
[01:17] <Riddell> Hobbsee: no
[01:17] <manchicken> I have to use wifi-radar these days... which actually works quite well.
[01:17] <Riddell> manchicken: delete your /etc/network/interfaces :)
[01:17] <Lure> Hobbsee: no, but we should not be implementing new features anymore
[01:17] <Lure> and adding bunch of code to kded is not perfect thing to do late
[01:17] <Hobbsee> Lure: true
[01:18] <Hobbsee> if it fails, pull it :P
[01:18] <Riddell> Lure: would be a shame not to have networkstatus patches, but I don't have time either
[01:18] <Tonio_> Riddell: I can do that
[01:18] <Riddell> Tonio_: yay!
[01:18] <Lure> Riddell: I was waiting for 3.5.6
[01:18] <Tonio_> Lure: want me to do it ?
[01:18] <Lure> Tonio_: that would be great - I can help you though
[01:18] <Tonio_> Lure: sure
[01:19] <Lure> Tonio_: http://software.opensuse.org/download/KDE:/KDE3/openSUSE_10.2/src/ is the starting point
[01:19] <Lure> Tonio_: they have it in kdepim (networkstatus dir)
[01:19] <Tonio_> Lure: Yes, I have that link. I'll work on that once I fixed kcontrol
[01:19] <Lure> Tonio_: the rest we can talk offline in next days
[01:20] <Riddell> Tonio_: kcontrol is a bug, it can wait until after FF
[01:20] <Lure> The other thing is zeroconf/avahi: is anybody testing this config?
[01:20] <Tonio_> Riddell: hum true, so I'll work on that starting tomorrow :)
[01:20] <Lure> it looks like they have great success in ubuntu/gnome and I would not like we are behind
[01:20] <Riddell> Lure: works for me
[01:21] <allee> manchicken: check README.Debian from network-manager and compare with our /etc/network/interfaces
[01:21] <Hobbsee> oh, kbluetooth only works when you run it as root
[01:21] <Lure> Riddell: should we remove zeroconf config then ? ;-)
[01:21] <manchicken> allee: Eh, I could... but wifi-radar is so nice.
[01:21] <Riddell> Lure: we should probably remove the edgy patch to it
[01:21] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: hu ? works for me
[01:21] <Hobbsee> i still couldnt get it to fully work, but that may well be a case of PEBKAC
[01:21] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: it was trying to write to /tmp or something, not really sure
[01:21] <manchicken> Simple, no system service...
[01:21] <Lure> Riddell: what about printer browsing/sharing: do we need to change anything there?
[01:22] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: lemme test right now :)
[01:22] <Riddell> Lure: I've not looked at that actually
[01:22] <Riddell> Lure: but it should just work if it's on by default
[01:22] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: works perfectly here
[01:22] <Lure> Riddell: yep, problem is that if nobody tested, we will not know until the release...
[01:23] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: okay, cool.  pebkac error then :)
[01:23] <Lure> ok, anyhow those are probably easy to remove anytime (just some .desktop files or simple patches)
[01:24] <Lure> and I have seen that mhb already prepared MIR for polyester that kwwii mentions that might be default for feisty
[01:25] <Riddell> I don't think he's added it to the MainInclusionQueue though
[01:25] <Lure> Riddell: it is still subpage on his personal page
[01:25] <Riddell> oh, tsk
[01:25] <Lure> Riddell: it needs review from core-dev's
[01:25] <Riddell> ok, I'll sort that out
[01:25] <Riddell> it needs review from pitti
[01:26] <Lure> Riddell: finally yet, but kubuntu core-dev's before that ;-)
[01:26] <Lure> s/yet/that/
[01:26] <Riddell> manchicken: you had an agenda point?
[01:26] <Riddell> oh, gnomefreak we were ment to ping you
[01:27] <gnomefreak> ive been watching
[01:27] <gnomefreak> ty
[01:27] <Riddell> manchicken: go
[01:27] <manchicken> np
[01:27] <manchicken> which should I do?  go?
[01:27] <Hobbsee> Lure: when will you go for core?
[01:27] <Lure> Hobbsee: I need to go for MOTU ;-)
[01:27] <Riddell> Hobbsee: afte
[01:27] <Riddell> blah
[01:27] <Riddell> manchicken: go go!
[01:27] <manchicken> Yeah... so the word I keep seeing is "sprint."  Are we actually implementing an "official" scrum or agile process/
[01:28] <Hobbsee> Lure: you could have done that yesterday :P
[01:28] <manchicken> Or am I just imagining things?
[01:28] <Riddell> manchicken: a sprint is a focused real-world developer meeting
[01:28] <Hobbsee> hrm?
[01:28] <gnomefreak> sprint week is over isnt it?
[01:28] <Hobbsee> real world?  what's that :P
[01:28] <Riddell> canonical's distro team had one last week in Oslo
[01:28] <manchicken> Ah.
[01:28] <Lure> manchicken: they use some concepts from agile development, yes
[01:28] <manchicken> Okay.  So we're thinking something different.
[01:29] <Lure> manchicken: but not to it's full
[01:29] <manchicken> Are there any plans to host one of these in the US?
[01:29] <manchicken> I can't really make it to Oslo or Scottland.
[01:29] <manchicken> heh
[01:29] <Lure> manchicken: they need face-to-face sprints to do major breaktroughs
[01:29] <Riddell> unlikely, most of canonoical's distro team are in Europe
[01:29] <manchicken> There's the whole matter of the Atlantic Ocean and expensive airfare.
[01:29] <Lure> manchicken: there was UDS in MtView
[01:29] <Riddell> but the last UDS was in the US
[01:29] <Hobbsee> anyone planning to go to UDS in spain, btw?
[01:30] <manchicken> Interesting.
[01:30] <Lure> Lure, Tonio_, imbrandon were there
[01:30] <Riddell> manchicken: there is sponsorship for a limited number of people to get to UDSs
[01:30] <manchicken> If at any time anybody's interested in throwing one of those parties in the US, let me know.
[01:30] <Riddell> manchicken: there's the ubuntucon thing at google soon
[01:30] <Riddell> oh and, ubuntu live
[01:30] <manchicken> I'm planning on starting a group here in chicago for the purpose of hacking kubuntu.
[01:30] <Lure> oh, we missed this item: New kicker design -- Tonio
[01:31] <n8k99_> Ubucon is feb 16 in New York
[01:31] <manchicken> Wow.  How did I miss that?  I googled for hours trying to see if there was something like that going on in the US.
[01:31] <manchicken> I only found historical accounts.
[01:31] <Tonio_> Lure: yes I just added it
[01:32] <n8k99_> get your flyer here http://eckenrodehouse.net/kubuntu/flyer1-1.pdf
[01:32] <Riddell> manchicken: I assume http://www.ubuntulive.com/ is public now
[01:32] <manchicken> Nice.
[01:32] <Tonio_> okay, I discussed rencently about that on kubuntu-devel, and people seem to appreciate that new kicker design :
[01:32] <Tonio_> http://tonio.homelinux.org/temp/capture15.png
[01:32] <manchicken> Sweet, they've got one in July that I may be able to go to.
[01:32] <Tonio_> here is the idea :
[01:32] <Jucato> hm.. not found?
[01:32] <Lure> 404
[01:32] <Riddell> n8k99_: looks fun
[01:32] <manchicken> Though I still think a frequently-mmeeting local team may be more productive.
[01:32] <manchicken> Okay, that concludes my interruptions for the evening.
[01:33] <Tonio_> http://tonio.homelinux.org/temp/capture11.png
[01:33] <n8k99_> thanks Riddell
[01:33] <Lure> Tonio_: what is delta
[01:33] <Tonio_> the idea is that LOTS of people don't know the application launcher thing, and all of them love it when they discover that exists
[01:33] <Hobbsee> ah yes, the new kicker :)
[01:33] <Tonio_> Lure: delta is adding the "desktop" icon, and make usage of the application launcher applet
[01:33] <Riddell> Tonio_: so adding app launcher and desktops down to two?
[01:34] <Tonio_> yes
[01:34] <Riddell> meh, /me not a fan of desktop icon for some reason
[01:34] <Lure> Tonio_: I would agree that 2 desktops is good default
[01:34] <Tonio_> Riddell: Hobbsee for example didn't even knew that was possible in kde
[01:34] <Jucato> +Show Desktop applet, +Quick Launcher -2 Virtual desktops
[01:34] <Lure> Riddell: +1 on desktop icon
[01:34] <Hobbsee> Riddell: that's because you dont use anything apart from a konsole, right?  you dont need to get to the desktop
[01:35] <Tonio_> Riddell: I don't use the desktop one too, but that's very usefull for non-geeks
[01:35] <Hobbsee> truth be told, i tend to switch to a different desktop, instead of hitting show desktop, then go back to the previous one
[01:35] <Lure> Hobbsee: lol
[01:35] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: i did know it existed.  didnt know the black magic to invoke to get it though :P
[01:35] <Tonio_> the idea of the app launcher is more to introduce the user to that functionnality in fact
[01:36] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: that's a very common problem, everyone loves that when they know it exists
[01:36] <Lure> Tonio_: yep, it makes sense - what apps do we put in my default?
[01:36] <Riddell> Hobbsee: it's because I think icons on the desktop are a crazy idea in general
[01:36] <Lure> s/my/by/
[01:37] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: the 4 apps I had are a base, we can provide 6 links, or remove kopete for another one, that's to be decided
[01:37] <Lure> Riddell: not really - I use it for all the crap to be removed soon ;-)
[01:37] <Hobbsee> Riddell: yeah.  on that subejct, i still dislike the trash being on the kicker :P
[01:37] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: yep
[01:37] <Jucato> +1 Hobbsee (on trash)
[01:37] <Riddell> Hobbsee: tough luck, that's a sabdfl rule :)
[01:37] <Hobbsee> Riddell: darn :(
[01:37] <Jucato> ooh
[01:37] <Jucato> no going against sabdfl :)
[01:37] <Riddell> and it's the right place for it anyway IMO
[01:38] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: that's why I let that in hehe :)
[01:38] <Lure> Hobbsee: but is better there than having it on desktop, isn't it?
[01:38] <Tonio_> so how about the global feeling concerning that kicker design ?
[01:38] <Riddell> Tonio_: I'd swap desktop and system-menu there to keep things consistent
[01:38] <Hobbsee> Lure: not overly.  depends.  is the kicker space more used than the desktop?
[01:38] <Tonio_> Riddell: okay I can do that
[01:38] <Riddell> Tonio_: otherwise, seems interesting
[01:38] <claydoh> my kicker is surprisingly similar: no quicklauncher, 2 desktops plus FF and tbird icon for the mrs
[01:39] <Jucato> claydoh: what's so similar about having using non-KDE apps? :P
[01:39] <claydoh> :P
[01:39] <Tonio_> Riddell: we can do a test implementation in kds and get people feedback
[01:39] <Hobbsee> OW!!!
[01:39] <Lure> Tonio_: I am just thinking if desktop and system icons should be on quick launcher (same size)
[01:39] <Tonio_> that can be changed anytime very easilly, so....
[01:39] <Tonio_> Lure: that's not possible
[01:39] <claydoh> Jucato: the overall layout
[01:40] <Jucato> claydoh: aah :P
[01:40] <Lure> Tonio_: can we have them same size?
[01:40] <Tonio_> Lure: you'd like the applauncher to use big icons ?
[01:40] <Riddell> Tonio_: doesn't seem to be any objections, let's do it and see what the masses say
[01:41] <Tonio_> Lure: well on the default kicker size, that'll be a problem :)
[01:41] <Lure> Tonio_: no, desktop and system using small icons
[01:41] <Hobbsee> uh oh, i'm bleeding, brb
[01:41] <Tonio_> Lure: okay so no that's not possible
[01:41] <Tonio_> Lure: those are separate applets, they just fit kicker's height
[01:41] <Lure> Tonio_: then I would think all large would be better
[01:41] <Riddell> Tonio_: you have quick launcher icons at 22 there?
[01:41] <Tonio_> Riddell: yep
[01:41] <Riddell> groovy
[01:41] <Lure> Tonio_: it would also differentiate well from systray icons
[01:42] <Tonio_> Riddell: well that's just the "auto" mode
[01:42] <Lure> that Riddell hates as well ;-)
[01:42] <Hobbsee> note to self:  stapling oneself is BAD!
[01:42] <Tonio_> Lure: all large is a nonsense
[01:42] <Tonio_> I generally use at least 10 icons with the app launcher
[01:42] <Tonio_> that would use all of the kicker size
[01:42] <Lure> Tonio_: that is you
[01:42] <Lure> Tonio_: most people have 3-5 apps
[01:42] <Tonio_> Lure: yes, but that's the idea of an app launcher :)
[01:42] <allee> Tonio_: most people won't (I guess)
[01:43] <Lure> Tonio_: and you and me know to change default
[01:43] <Tonio_> Lure: with smal resol (1024) that would take too much space too
[01:43] <Lure> ;-)
[01:43] <Lure> Tonio_: that is good point
[01:43] <Tonio_> Lure: well we can make tests, but I think 22 icons is the good size
[01:44] <Lure> Tonio_: yep, just do it and we will hear complaints/praises
[01:44] <Riddell> 22 is the max having two lines
[01:44] <Tonio_> Riddell: didn't you had a heart attack looking at my systray ? I "love" systray icons :)
[01:45] <Riddell> Tonio_: I have a heart attack whenever I look at my own systray
[01:45] <Jucato> heh :)
[01:45] <Tonio_> Riddell: lol
[01:45] <Hobbsee> heh
[01:45] <Riddell> we're at 5 by default now!
[01:45] <Hobbsee> Riddell: you could just get rid of it :P
[01:45] <Riddell> we add 1 a release
[01:46] <ogra> screens grow as well :)
[01:46] <n8k99_> you could get rid of the taskbar too
[01:46] <Lure> Riddell: agreed - we are progressing on a slow pace here ;-)
[01:46] <Hobbsee> ogra: *grin*
[01:46] <Tonio_> Riddell: the problem isn't systray icons, it is the way the kicker applets deals with them
[01:46] <Tonio_> windows is way better on that point
[01:46] <Tonio_> way better.....
[01:46] <Lure> Tonio_: +1
[01:46] <Jucato> hiding systray icons...
[01:46] <Riddell> hmm, well, hmm
[01:46] <Riddell> anyway, any other business?
[01:46] <Riddell> or memberships?
[01:46] <Tonio_> Jucato: on windows you can select the icons you always want on the screen and the ones that are hidden
[01:47] <Tonio_> the hidden icons appear when you just click on a little arrow on the right of the sysray
[01:47] <Jucato> Tonio_: kicker has that.. but the arrow icon is too large
[01:47] <Tonio_> that's very nice
[01:47] <Tonio_> Jucato: not talking about the kicker arrow, but about a systray applet arrow
[01:47] <Jucato> I meant, the system tray applet for kicker
[01:47] <Tonio_> I yes it has !!!!!!!!
[01:47] <Tonio_> that's cool
[01:48] <Riddell> ok, meeting over, thanks all
[01:48] <Hobbsee> Riddell: just generally taking over the world
[01:48] <Tonio_> we should be able to change the arrow size no ?
[01:48] <Hobbsee> :P
[01:48] <Riddell> discussion -> #kubuntu-devel
[01:48] <Hobbsee> yay, in under 2 hours :D
[01:48] <Jucato> hehe nice
[01:48] <Tonio_> Riddell: interesting thing concerning the systray, you might like
[01:48] <Lure> good nite everybody!
[01:48] <Tonio_> Riddell: we'll have to rediscuss this :)
[01:49] <Tonio_> good night lure
[01:49] <allee> nite lure
[01:49] <Jucato> g'nite Lure
[07:33] <rraphink> @schedule paris
[07:33] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 01 Feb 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 21:00: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 13:00: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Feb 17:00: Forum Council | 13 Feb 21:00: Technical Board
[07:40] <sid> @schedule New_York
[07:40] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 01 Feb 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 15:00: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 07:00: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Feb 11:00: Forum Council | 13 Feb 15:00: Technical Board
[01:55] <gnomefreak> @schedule new_york
[01:55] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 01 Feb 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 15:00: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 07:00: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Feb 11:00: Forum Council | 13 Feb 15:00: Technical Board
[09:34] <Commander-Crowe> when is the next meeting?
[09:36] <Adri2000> Commander-Crowe: /topic
[09:36] <apokryphos> @schedule London
[09:37] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/London: 01 Feb 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 20:00: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 12:00: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Feb 16:00: Forum Council | 13 Feb 20:00: Technical Board
[09:37] <Commander-Crowe> @schedule San Jose, Ca
[09:37] <Commander-Crowe> @schedule San Deigo, Ca
[09:38] <apokryphos> valid timezone calls: http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/timezones.html
[09:40] <Commander-Crowe> @schedule Los Angeles
[09:40] <apokryphos> you need the underscore in there
[09:40] <Adri2000> @schedule Los_Angeles
[09:40] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Los_Angeles: 01 Feb 13:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 12:00: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 04:00: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Feb 08:00: Forum Council | 13 Feb 12:00: Technical Board
[09:40] <Commander-Crowe> ah
[09:40] <Commander-Crowe> someone could've said "its 20 mins from now"
[09:41] <Commander-Crowe> :P
[09:41] <apokryphos> but then you wouldn't have discovered that excellent feature ;-)
[09:41] <Seveas> Commander-Crowe, someone can say that
[09:41] <Seveas> @now los_angeles
[09:41] <Ubugtu> Current time in America/Los_Angeles: February 01 2007, 12:41:57 - Next meeting: Ubuntu Development Team in 18 minutes
[09:42] <Commander-Crowe> haha
[09:42] <Commander-Crowe> nice
[09:43] <Commander-Crowe> what are the rules during the meeting? like I'm not a developer(but i want to help)
[09:43] <dholbach> Commander-Crowe: this is the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20070201
[09:43] <dholbach> it'll be quite fast-paced, I reckon
[09:43] <Seveas> yeah
[09:44] <Seveas> Commander-Crowe, these meetings are not th ones to attend when you want to get involved with Ubuntu, you better poke the MOTU for a while if you want to do packaging
[09:44] <Commander-Crowe> ah
[09:44] <Commander-Crowe> whats roll call?
[09:45] <Commander-Crowe> well
[09:45] <Commander-Crowe> I'm more of an art work/documentaion guy until I get better at C/C++
[09:45] <BenC> that's the sad part about doc people...they end up moving on to being tech people :)
[09:45] <kylem> heya Ben.
[09:45] <BenC> and we know tech people never write docs
[09:46] <BenC> hey kyle
[09:46] <Commander-Crowe> haha
[09:47] <Commander-Crowe> In Xubuntu I'm almost always working as techie, not that it intentional
[09:47] <Seveas> Commander-Crowe, then contact docteam or artteam :)
[09:47] <Commander-Crowe> ok
[09:47] <Seveas> docteam can alwaus use volunteers
[09:48] <Commander-Crowe> so they say
[09:48] <Commander-Crowe> although I can never find them
[09:48] <apokryphos> Commander-Crowe: #ubuntu-doc
[09:48] <Commander-Crowe> I'll add that to the autojoin list
[09:48] <Seveas> Commander-Crowe, and http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
[09:49] <mdz> good evening, all
[09:49] <Commander-Crowe> good afternoon
[09:49] <BenC> hey mdz
[09:50] <dholbach> hi mdz
[09:50] <pitti> hey mdz
[09:54] <Commander-Crowe> @now los_angeles
[09:54] <Ubugtu> Current time in America/Los_Angeles: February 01 2007, 12:54:39 - Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team
[09:54] <Mithrandir> mdz: are we going to do the usual paste or something else this time around?
[09:56] <dholbach> shouldn't everybody have read the agenda before? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20070201
[09:56] <BenC> Mithrandir: I think the idea of the agenda was to avoid it
[09:56] <dholbach> not sure if pasting still makes sense then
[09:56] <Keybuk> we're not doing the pasting afaik
[09:56] <Mithrandir> ok
[09:57] <Mithrandir> I won't prepare one, then. :-)
[09:57] <mdz> Mithrandir: no pasting
[09:57] <Keybuk> mdz: are you going to drive?
[09:57] <mdz> sure
[09:58] <mdz> just getting set up
[09:59] <mc44> wow crazy new format. How exciting :)
[09:59] <mdz> roll call?
[09:59] <mvo> hello
[09:59] <ogra_> oh, damned, new format ...
[10:00] <mdz> if you arrived or spoke in the past 10 minutes, I've got you; otherwise, please let me know you're here
[10:00] <Riddell> hi all
[10:00] <kwwii> howdy
[10:00] <kylem> yo.
[10:00] <bdmurray> here
[10:00] <Keybuk> here
[10:00] <iwj> So let's see how quickly we can manage this :-).
[10:00] <sfllaw> cjwatson: I added a link to DevelTeamMeetings on the agenda page.
[10:00] <cjwatson> hello
[10:00] <cjwatson> sfllaw: thanks, I forgot
[10:01] <sfllaw> Oh, I'm here.
[10:01] <mdz> cjwatson: did heno mention whether he could make it?
[10:01] <heno> here
[10:01] <mdz> ah, that's everyone then
[10:01] <cjwatson> ... I won't bother answering that then. :)
[10:01] <Keybuk> kwwii: ?
[10:01] <heno> I was following the 'arrived during the past 10 minutes rule' :)
[10:01] <Commander-Crowe> here
[10:01] <dholbach> Keybuk: he arrived before you did :)
[10:02] <kwwii> Keybuk: hi
[10:02] <mdz> heno: didn't see you come in, sorry
[10:02] <mdz> ok
[10:02] <mdz> the meeting agenda is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20070201
[10:02] <mdz> please have a look
[10:02] <pochu> @now
[10:03] <Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: February 01 2007, 21:03:04 - Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team
[10:03] <mdz> if you have any new agenda items, shout
[10:03] <Keybuk> (everyone should read the activity reports there; if you have items to add to the agenda as a result of reading those, now is the time)
[10:03] <cjwatson> from now on we'll generally mail it out on the day of the meeting - probably not before the tail-end of Thursday morning though, as it takes time to prepare
[10:04] <BenC> mdz: What about removals?
[10:04] <sfllaw> Can we get a decision about what to do about -commercial support?  I'm unclear about it as is jbailey.
[10:04] <mdz> BenC: likewise
[10:04] <dholbach> I think we can drop point 7, right pitti?
[10:04] <BenC> mdz: apport/kernel, done
[10:04] <BenC> mdz: d-d-m maybe discuss, but being defered
[10:04] <mdz> ogra: you took the wiki lock; that means you get to do all the edits :-)
[10:05] <ogra> mdz, already released
[10:05] <cjwatson> sfllaw: clarify?
[10:05] <Keybuk> ogra: please note, don't add items (or reports) to that wiki page -- instead mail them by the end of wednesday if you wish them to be included
[10:05] <pitti> dholbach: if the ML is the right place (as opposed to blackmailing kwwii), that's fine for me
[10:05] <dholbach> hahaha :-)
[10:05] <sfllaw> We have no way to track bugs in the BTS, and have no idea how to escalate bugs to the appropriate people to fix them.
[10:05] <seb128> mdz: easy codec installation can be marked done as well
[10:05] <ogra> Keybuk, ok, sorry, the new process somewhat went past me ...
[10:05] <sfllaw> Right now, they're getting dropped on the floor, which is lousy for user-experience.
[10:05] <mdz> BenC: done how?
[10:06] <BenC> mdz: apport/kernel stuff should be in Herd 3
[10:06] <sfllaw> cjwatson: Perhaps this isn't appropriate for the DevelTeamMeeting, though.
[10:06] <pitti> mdz: feisty's apport package is prepared for new behaviour for a while and should automatically switch over
[10:06] <mdz> BenC: oh, the new kernel interface you mean?
[10:06] <pitti> yup
[10:06] <cjwatson> sfllaw: I think that probably requires discussion with launchpad folks; perhaps mail distro-team and we can prepare something to pass to launchpad@
[10:06] <BenC> mdz: unless that's in regards to kernel calling apport for crashes
[10:06] <mdz> BenC: I thought you meant that, yeah
[10:06] <pitti> mdz: I tested it with a locally built kernel on the sprint
[10:07] <pitti> mdz: apporting kernel oopses is in apport bzr head (not uploaded due to freeze)
[10:07] <cjwatson> sfllaw: (I have some crude ideas but I don't want to brainstorm in this meeting)
[10:07] <mdz> pitti: ooh
[10:07] <mdz> ok, I've updated the agenda
[10:07] <BenC> we need a marker for changing topics in regards to the agenda
[10:08] <Keybuk> BenC: ?
[10:08] <BenC> like **CHANGING TOPIC: foo.***
[10:08] <BenC> so it's easy to follow
[10:08] <pitti> mdz: malone cloakroom is done, too
[10:08] <mdz> yes, that would be helpful
[10:08] <Keybuk> it's a wiki. just diff it :p
[10:08] <mdz> pitti: please go ahead and make your edits; I thought you said you already had
[10:08] <BenC> no, I mean in the channel :P
[10:08] <sfllaw> BenC: That's a clever idea.
[10:08] <pitti> mdz: the other wiki
[10:08] <BenC> while we discuss
[10:08] <mdz> Keybuk: he means to highlight proposals for new agenda items
[10:08] <mdz> oh, no he doesn't
[10:09] <Keybuk> we should keep the discussion to a minimum at this point :p
[10:09] <mdz> he means to delineate the conversation
[10:09] <BenC> right
[10:09] <cjwatson> TIMEOUT on new agenda items
[10:09] <mdz> agreed
[10:09] <BenC> there we go
[10:09] <pitti> mdz: done
[10:09] <mdz> first up: new archive team
[10:09] <mdz> new rule: all agenda items must have a person associated with them :-)
[10:09] <cjwatson> pitti is fully enfranchised; I've sent an RT request for seb128 as well
[10:09] <kylem> that's a good rule.
[10:10] <mdz> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-archive
[10:10] <Keybuk> sorry, this was me from two or three different pastes
[10:10] <pitti> since I'm a fresh addition, and seb128 will follow soon, and Scott and Colin won't have so much time any more, I think we shuold get a new 'archive days'
[10:10] <seb128> agreed
[10:10] <Keybuk> Who are the new archive members; what are their general responsibilities and who is doing which day?
[10:10] <pitti> I became comfortable with SRUs and syncs
[10:10] <mdz> I'll add seb128 to LP
[10:10] <pitti> and I need to find some time with cjwatson to do langpack uploads as well
[10:10] <pitti> but I didn't do NEW yet
[10:10] <seb128> I'm happy to do binary new and syncs
[10:11] <iwj> Keybuk: These are good questions.  Perhaps the new archive team will send an announcement of new responsibilties, times, etc. ?
[10:11] <cjwatson> ACTION: cjwatson to train pitti in langpack upload procedure
[10:11] <mdz> are the syncs generally more complete now that we codified the policy?
[10:11] <pitti> seb128, Mithrandir: can we meet tomorrow for figuring out new archive days? say, 1000 UTC?
[10:11] <seb128> pitti: WFM
[10:11] <Mithrandir> I'm happy to help new members where they feel that they're not confident yet.
[10:11] <mdz> ACTION: followup meeting for archive team to discuss archive days
[10:11] <pitti> mdz: I had to reject/needinfo very few so far
[10:11] <Mithrandir> pitti: sure.
[10:12] <Keybuk> ok
[10:12] <cjwatson> help new members> as am I
[10:12] <Keybuk> next item?
[10:12] <cjwatson> (pitti) Artwork procedure: Martin would like to get an official Icon for apport, how do we get these kinds of things done?
[10:12] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: just a sec
 pitti: for the official apport icon, I'd just ask the folks on ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com
[10:12] <doko_> joining ...
[10:12] <Mithrandir> I'd really like to have one of the new members to become comfortable with source NEW as well, or I'll implode at some point.
[10:12] <pitti> if that implies any chance of actually getting one, I'm fine with the ML
[10:12] <mdz> pitti: kwwii is the person to talk to about that
[10:13] <kwwii> pitti: we can discuss this offline
[10:13] <pitti> kwwii: sure
[10:13] <pitti> ACTION: pitti and kwwii discuss apport artwork
[10:13] <mdz> tell him your need, and he can submit it to the community, track submissions, and perhaps be a fallback to create an icon if none turns up
[10:13] <mdz> (BenC) Fate of udev. Will kernel team take it over, or will Ian? Admittedly, udev should work as-is for feisty, but I want to know if in the future we should expect to do changes ourselves, or be able to go to another person taking the responsibility. Trying to account for workload.
[10:13] <pitti> Keybuk: you'll collect those with /lastlog ACTION or so?
[10:13] <mdz> pitti: he's noting them as we go
[10:13] <iwj> I'd be happy to help deal with it.
[10:14] <cjwatson> ACTION: archive team to ensure that at least one further member is trained in source NEW
[10:14] <Keybuk> udev is mostly a hands off project
[10:14] <iwj> I'm still a beginner as regards udev and not up to speed with kernel development nowadays.
[10:14] <Keybuk> it just needs updating in step with the kernel
[10:14] <BenC> iwj: Deal with it totally?
[10:14] <iwj> Keybuk: That sounds good.
[10:14] <Keybuk> and bugs rejected if they ask for package names
[10:14] <iwj> BenC: If what Keybuk says is true then yes.
[10:14] <Keybuk> uh
[10:14] <Keybuk> device names
[10:14] <mdz> Keybuk: it also needs someone to help isolate problems
[10:14] <BenC> iwj: Are you using udev? :)
[10:14] <cjwatson> pitti: I think you'd be the obvious person
[10:14] <iwj> BenC: On my Ubuntu systems, yes.
[10:14] <pitti> cjwatson: *nod*
[10:15] <Mithrandir> pitti: we'll discuss it tomorrow at 1000 utc
[10:15] <BenC> ok, I'm happy with iwj taking on udev
[10:15] <Keybuk> my gut feeling has been that someone on Colin's team, ideally the kernel team, should take it on
[10:15] <kylem> me too.
[10:15] <kylem> ;-)
[10:15] <Keybuk> as it's an upstream project, and very closely related to the kernel
[10:15] <Keybuk> but I'm also happy for someone like iwj to take it on as well
[10:15] <iwj> I don't really have an opinion.
[10:15] <BenC> I was actually looking for more kernel realted packages for the kernel-team, but if someone else has the notion, Im not against it
[10:15] <mdz> I agree that it makes sense for the kernel team to own it
[10:15] <cjwatson> I agree with mdz
[10:16] <iwj> BenC: Well, if you guys want it don't let me stand in your way.
[10:16] <seb128> pitti: I'm not that comfortable doing source NEW for now, I would prefer to stick to binary new and syncs to start if that's fine with you
[10:16] <mdz> BenC: the kernel team has the most resources at the moment, with new folks coming on board
[10:16] <iwj> I'll probably still take a slight interest.
[10:16] <pitti> seb128: I am, let's talk about it tomorrow
[10:16] <cjwatson> I have no objection to stuff being arranged so that iwj can help out
[10:16] <seb128> pitti: ok
[10:16] <BenC> mdz: Right, we need work load fillers, and things to take off the daily bug grind
[10:16] <Keybuk> iwj has already proved very useful in touching things that interface with udev, like lvm, etc.
[10:16] <mdz> naturally, it wouldn't be an exclusive responsibility; anyone who is interested can help out
[10:16] <cjwatson> but I'd like the kernel team to own stuff that touches very closely on kernelspace from the userspace side
[10:16] <iwj> mdz: Right.
[10:16] <cjwatson> (as a general guideline)
[10:17] <pitti> does that also include the current pile of udev specs?
[10:17] <BenC> yes
[10:17] <iwj> pitti: Let's discuss them later.
[10:17] <cjwatson> pitti: not for feisty, but going forward yes
[10:17] <Keybuk> ACTION: keybuk to summarise a "how to maintain udev" for the kernel team, and "how to debug problems" for all interested parties
[10:17] <mdz> agreed, I'd like for the kernel team to take a general responsibility for hardware-related interfaces in userspace as well
[10:17] <cjwatson> ok, done?
[10:18] <cjwatson> (sfllaw) Support for -commercial
[10:18] <mdz> Keybuk: debugging doc should be run by sfllaw and bdmurray
[10:18] <BenC> ACTION: kernel-team to investigate packages that fit into their work
[10:18] <BenC> horde everything possible
[10:18] <pitti> BenC: hal :-P
[10:18] <mdz> both for their own information and for review for presentation to the community
[10:18] <BenC> heh, ouch
[10:18] <cjwatson> (I thought this was going to go to the ML, but it's ended up on the agenda now)
[10:18] <kylem> lsscsi, lspcmcia, etc.
[10:18] <mdz> I added it to the agenda
[10:18] <cjwatson> 21:10 <cjwatson> I think the simplest approach would be to create an ubuntu-commercial distro
[10:18] <cjwatson> 21:10 <cjwatson> (name unimportant as long as it contains "commercial")
[10:18] <mdz> sfllaw: the issue is that these packages aren't in launchpad, yes?
[10:18] <cjwatson> 21:11 <sfllaw> That doesn't solve how escalations work...  What I'm saying is I have no idea what the procedure is.
[10:18] <cjwatson> 21:12 <cjwatson> it would solve the problem of being unable to file bugs, and make it possible for people to be bug contacts
[10:18] <cjwatson> 21:13 <cjwatson> which would mean that you could look them up, and complain (to the uploader, or to distro management since only distro team can upload to -commercial) when no bug contacts were registered
[10:19] <cjwatson> 21:13 <cjwatson> anyway, let's do this on distro-team@
[10:19] <mdz> it would be better to import the package names into an Ubuntu component somehow
[10:19] <mdz> anyway, agreed, let's take it up with launchpad
[10:19] <mdz> cjwatson: your action item to follow it up?
[10:19] <cjwatson> sure
[10:19] <mdz> ok
[10:19] <mdz> done and done
[10:19] <sfllaw> I'll e-mail distro-team@ and we can discuss.
[10:19] <sfllaw> Thanks.
[10:20] <cjwatson> ACTION: cjwatson to follow up handling of -commercial in Launchpad
[10:20] <mdz> udev, device-mapper, lvm, evms, mdadm, etc. finishing and testing (Ian, Fabio, Scott)
[10:20] <iwj> Re udev-* specs.  I this was unblocked but actually Keybuk tells me he has a 104 package floating about.
[10:20] <iwj> udev-104, that is.
[10:20] <cjwatson> what does 104 get us?
[10:20] <cjwatson> though it is pre-UVF, granted
[10:20] <iwj> I don't really know.  The upstream changelog was rather obscure.
[10:20] <Keybuk> it may fix problems with .20 and device-mapper devices
[10:20] <iwj> `problems' ?
[10:20] <pitti> Keybuk: oh, the race condition? fixed upstream now?
[10:21] <iwj> I think the best thing here is for Keybuk to finish and upload his 104 package and then for me to take these specs and finish them off.
[10:21] <Keybuk> agreeed
[10:21] <mdz> 104 is required to finish the specs?
[10:21] <Keybuk> no
[10:22] <Keybuk> it's orthagonal
[10:22] <mdz> iwj: then those should be parallel, not serial
[10:22] <iwj> But if it changes the way the dm-* devices are handled then it would involve rework to do 104 later.
[10:22] <Keybuk> it doesn't change it in any way that affects your specs
[10:22] <iwj> Keybuk: Err, OK.  I must have misunderstood some of your earlier comments.
[10:22] <iwj> (In private message this afternoon, I mean.)
[10:23] <mdz> ok, sounds like the two of you can work this out offline?
[10:23] <iwj> I'll press on basing things on 103 then.
[10:23] <iwj> mdz: Yes.
[10:23] <Keybuk> it simply reduces the number of times your rules would be called from twice (once on dmsetup, once after the table is loaded) to once after the table is loaded (or changed)
[10:23] <mdz> Device Driver Manager (Scott, Ben)
[10:23] <Keybuk> mdz: we've decided to defer that to +1, I believe
[10:23] <cjwatson> we dealt with that the other day, it's deferred to feisty+1
[10:23] <cjwatson> NEXT
[10:23] <mdz> ok
[10:23] <BenC> device-driver-manager is going to be defered
[10:23] <mdz> Automated testing deployment (Ian, Robert)
[10:23] <iwj> In progress, I'm debugging my code.
[10:24] <iwj> I'm not sure why Robert is on this agenda item.
[10:24] <mdz> BenC: it will be nice to have some time to polish up the UI, I'm sure
[10:24] <iwj> Are there two separate things going on here ?
[10:24] <cjwatson> iwj: that was copied from the sprint agenda
[10:24] <mdz> there's no hurry to get it in just now
[10:24] <iwj> mdz: OK.
[10:24] <BenC> mdz: Definitely
[10:24] <mdz> this is a list of items from the sprint agenda which had no outcome recorded
[10:25] <iwj> Right, well, Robert and I discussed all relevant things and that sprint agenda item should count as done.
[10:25] <mdz> iwj: I understand you and lifeless did have a conversation about this; what's the outlook?
[10:25] <keescook> iwj: keep me in the loop on auto testing docs please; I've been building tests while doing security update tests.  I want to make sure the stuff pitti and I have been doing will be each to port over.
[10:25] <iwj> keescook: Noted.
[10:25] <cjwatson> in many cases we simply didn't notice that the sprint item should be marked as done, and that's fine - just want to ensure they're all checked
[10:26] <pitti> keescook: I prepared a new dovecot package with the test included and autopkgtest'ified and sent it to iwj
[10:26] <iwj> mdz: We did have a conversation but the commonality between what we're doing isn't huge right now.  But we're keeping each other informed so there won't be duplicated work.
[10:26] <iwj> pitti: Right.  That's going to be my second testcase after I get mawk working.
[10:26] <mdz> iwj: the point of it was that he's available to help us with initiatives like this
[10:26] <pitti> iwj: cool :)
[10:26] <keescook> pitti: right; I just want to know what the Right methods are for autopkgtest'ifying.  :)
[10:26] <iwj> mdz: He has offered to review my Python :-).
[10:27] <iwj> keescook: Indeed.
[10:27] <BenC> mdz, cjwatson, Keybuk: So for next week, will the actions items from this meeting be on the agenda, and we can mark them in the wiki as done to avoid discussion?
[10:27] <cjwatson> BenC: yes
[10:27] <iwj> When I get dovecot working I'll have an update for you and updated docs too.
[10:27] <BenC> excellent
[10:27] <cjwatson> "actions from previous meeting" is a standing item
[10:27] <mdz> BenC: they'll be sent out to the mailing list after this meeting, and responses can be incorporated when we make the next agenda
[10:27] <mdz> Integrate update-silo that's outside of SPARC installer scope (spec is already implemented). (Fabio, Ben)
[10:27] <keescook> iwj: great, thank you.  :)
[10:27] <cjwatson> Fabio is travelling; BenC?
[10:27] <Keybuk> mdz: fabio is on his way to montreal right now
[10:27] <BenC> no work on that yet
[10:28] <BenC> I have a working script, just need to get it into the installer and into silo
[10:28] <sfllaw> He is set to arrive at the airport at around 19:00.
[10:28] <mdz> what's it about?  is it needed for feisty?
[10:28] <sfllaw> I believe jbailey is going to have dinner with him.
[10:28] <BenC> Fabio was going to do the installer bits
[10:28] <BenC> getting into silo is just an upload away
[10:28] <BenC> mdz: It's not required, no
[10:28] <BenC> just a useful update-grub-like script
[10:28] <cjwatson> we don't really need to track it as an action, then
[10:28] <BenC> no, not really
[10:29] <mdz> being a nice-to-have for sparc makes it a pretty low priority
[10:29] <cjwatson> it makes the sparc post-install boot sequence less sucky, but ...
[10:29] <mdz> Braille support and making access in GDM just work (Henrik, ?)
[10:29] <BenC> very low-prio, on the verge of can-do-without
[10:29] <cjwatson> ACTION: cjwatson to re-review and incorporate braille-setup into installer
[10:29] <cjwatson> (probably easier than any alternative)
[10:30] <heno> so braille support should be ok for FF, but GDM is looking to be a pain
[10:30] <cjwatson> "UNCERTAIN: access-gdm -- ATM selecting the accessible login option in the setup GUI completely breaks GDM. This can likely be fixed with some love, but even then it's only in the non-themed interface, not our default."
[10:30] <heno> upstream needs to implement support in the themed version
[10:30] <cjwatson> (heno's update)
[10:31] <mdz> heno: is this a regression from edgy?
[10:31] <heno> perhaps we should grey out the check box when the themed version is selected
[10:31] <heno> mdz: no, it has never worked
[10:31] <cjwatson> themed> as in the fancy greeter?
[10:31] <heno> cjwatson: yes, the one we use
[10:32] <heno> youcan get the old one to work with some tweaking, ut nobody uses that
[10:32] <heno> it defeats the purpose IMO
[10:32] <mdz> heno: assume you'll track it and take the best course available for feisty.  is there more to discuss?
[10:32] <heno> mdz: no, that's fine
[10:33] <mdz> ok
[10:33] <mdz> doko isn't here, so we should carry his over
[10:33] <cjwatson> IIRC it was reviewing the list of modules in main and deciding which still make sense
[10:33] <mdz> pitti,keescook: I'm assuming InitialUbuntuCVETracking isn't done in launchpad yet?
[10:33] <cjwatson> but yes
[10:33] <doko> mdz: I'm listening
[10:33] <pitti> mdz: right, low prio and blocked on InitialCVETracking LP spec
[10:34] <mdz> cjwatson: yes, that sounds like a discussion which should be had via mail with a larger group, say on ubuntu-devel
[10:34] <mdz> Herd milestone progress (Tollef, Jonathan, Scott, Colin?, Matt?)
[10:34] <Keybuk> that was just that I wanted to discuss some things with them both
[10:34] <Keybuk> I have done that
[10:34] <mdz> Keybuk: anything notable for the group?
[10:34] <Riddell> Kubuntu is ready to go as far as I'm concerned
[10:34] <cjwatson> mdz: yes, it was to be a group discussion but never happened
[10:35] <mdz> cjwatson: mailing list moderation?
[10:35] <cjwatson> doko: as mdz says, ubuntu-devel is probably the best bet, now that it's moderated and hopefully won't descend into bikeshedding
[10:35] <Keybuk> mdz: nothing of note; mostly it was just making sure that I get updates of the milestone progress so I can tell you when you ask :)
[10:36] <mdz> Mithrandir: what do you think of having a milestone readiness update at each meeting, so we can stay informed of blockers and todos?
[10:36] <cjwatson> we didn't get round to that at the sprint. Who here is interested in doing mailing list moderation on a regular basis? The item was to ensure we're all doing it in roughly the same way.
[10:36] <Keybuk> cjwatson: Other Business
[10:36] <cjwatson> ubuntu-devel, chiefly
[10:36] <cjwatson> Keybuk: uh, it's an agenda item
[10:36] <mdz> I'm interested, but have no time
[10:36] <mdz> do we have written guidelines?
[10:36] <mdz> I can help with that
[10:37] <Mithrandir> mdz: that would be useful, but probably more as something where people tell me about problems
[10:37] <cjwatson> IIRC Tollef expressed interest
[10:37] <Keybuk> cjwatson: ah, sorry, didn't see the item :p
[10:37] <dholbach> I moderated like 10 mailing lists already and feel that's enough already. :-/
[10:37] <cjwatson> I don't think we do, but we should
[10:37] <cjwatson> aside from the charter
[10:37] <mdz> cjwatson: this strikes me as something which would benefit from community participation
[10:37] <Mithrandir> cjwatson: I'm happy to.
[10:37] <heno> I'm happy to moderate, given some guidelines
[10:37] <mdz> cjwatson: can you contact jono and ask him to put out a call?
[10:38] <cjwatson> ACTION: cjwatson to chase up the set of core-devs who can help moderate ubuntu-devel and arrange for clear documentation
[10:38] <mdz> cjwatson: perhaps not too broad; we only want folks we can trust with the responsibility
[10:38] <mdz> shouldn't have to be only core devs
[10:38] <cjwatson> I think core-dev is the appropriate restriction
[10:38] <mdz> if we write clear guidelines
[10:38] <cjwatson> most of the people I'd automatically trust with it are already core-dev
[10:38] <mdz> ACTION: mdz to codify mailing list guidelines
[10:39] <mdz> Kubuntu Dist Upgrader (Michael, Jonathan)
[10:39] <Riddell> waiting for mvo to upload
[10:39] <mvo_> I merged jonathans code into the main tree
[10:39] <mvo_> will be uploaded after herd-3
[10:39] <Riddell> then it needs backported and lots of testing
[10:40] <cjwatson> is it qt4?
[10:40] <Riddell> cjwatson: no, it needs the embedded konsole widget from KDE
[10:40] <cjwatson> probably just as well
[10:41] <cjwatson> any actions from this beyond what mvo and Riddell are going to do anyway?
[10:41] <Riddell> only poking archive admin when it needs to get into -proposed and -updates
[10:41] <cjwatson> ok, that's routine
[10:41] <Riddell> yep
[10:41] <cjwatson> ANY OTHER BUSINESS
[10:42] <BenC> wow, 15 minutes to spare
[10:42] <mdz> yes
[10:42] <pitti> some feedback for the meeting style: I found it significantly less boring
[10:42] <Riddell> we can now poke iwj about main inclusion reviews?
[10:42] <iwj> This new meeting format is a massive improvement.  With practice we can trim it even more.
[10:42] <iwj> Riddell: Yes.
[10:42] <BenC> pitti: as did I
[10:42] <mdz> heno: herd 3 will be the dry run of the new ISO testing scheme, yes?
[10:42] <cjwatson> this one will be unusually long due to the sprint followup, I think
[10:43] <pitti> less reading, more discussion, ++
[10:43] <Riddell> iwj: kde-style-polyester in the queue if you want an easy one
[10:43] <mdz> Riddell: the screenshot in your activity summary is very nice looking
[10:43] <BenC> I actually stopped working during this meeting :)
[10:43] <iwj> cjwatson: Quite.  And we'll get more practice at getting stuff off the agenda.
[10:43] <heno> mdz: yes, we are already using it. 6-7 community results so far
[10:43] <iwj> Riddell: OK, but not now, because I'm off to the pub.  Email me ?
[10:43] <pitti> iwj: I cleaned up the queue a bit yesterday
[10:43] <cjwatson> I need to help abattoir out with a few things
[10:43] <iwj> pitti: I saw.
[10:43] <Riddell> iwj: sure
[10:43] <cjwatson> in order to get that properly mergeable I need to finish off a timezone branch I have in progress
[10:43] <iwj> Or ping me on irc tomorrow.  Whatever you like.
[10:43] <heno> We should keep it open after the release as well, to get people used to it
[10:43] <mdz> heno: we should use it for canonical testing as well
[10:44] <heno> mdz: we are :)
[10:44] <cjwatson> which basically amounts to admitting that I won't get round to merging oem-config into ubiquity this time round and clone-and-hacking from u6y instead
[10:44] <Riddell> cjwatson: let me know if I can help with anything there
[10:44] <iwj> Thanks everyone, esp cjwatson and Keybuk, for efficiency and bevity.  And goodnight all.
[10:44] <kwwii> pitti: send me an email with any ideas/info about the icon you need...then let's talk in chat about it
[10:44] <heno> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-iso-tests/+bugs
[10:44] <Keybuk> == Apologies ==
[10:44] <Keybuk> ## One advantage of this meeting format is we get to list who's not coming.
[10:44] <Keybuk> meh
[10:44] <pitti> kwwii: great, will do
[10:44] <Keybuk> I meant to say
[10:44] <mdz> we have a couple of new folks
[10:44] <Keybuk> I'll mail out the action points to distro-team, and update the meeting page
[10:45] <pitti> Keybuk: yay for two clipboards under X? :-)
[10:45] <cjwatson> oh yes, we missed new starters off the agenda
[10:45] <mdz> Philip Lougher (pkl_) joins the kernel team with BenC and kylem
[10:45] <cjwatson> that's Phillip
[10:45] <Keybuk> pitti: yay to firefox slapping over both of them
[10:45] <BenC> pkl_: welcome
[10:45] <Riddell> hi pkl_
[10:45] <mdz> you may know him from SquashFS
[10:45] <ogra> welcome pkl_
[10:45] <Keybuk> pkl_: welcome aboard
[10:45] <pkl_> Hi, I'm lurking, just learning
[10:45] <mdz> today is his first day
[10:45] <cjwatson> pkl_: thanks for showing up at short notice, and I hope things are going well
[10:46] <cjwatson> have fun scaling the learning curve
[10:46] <pkl_> cjwatson: thanks
[10:46] <mdz> likewise, Alexander Sack is new on the team
[10:46] <cjwatson> Ben is mentoring Phillip
[10:46] <cjwatson> Ian is mentoring Alexander
[10:46] <mdz> I believe his nick is asac
[10:46] <dholbach> Rock on asac! another member of the 'german mafia' :-)
[10:47] <cjwatson> Alexander is joining as our new Mozilla maintainer, which fills a much-needed gap
[10:47] <kwwii> oh please, here go the germans
[10:47] <bdmurray> dholbach: not the Cargo Cult?
[10:47] <BenC> asac: welcome
[10:47] <mdz> asac isn't able to be at this after-hours meeting tonight, but will be around tomorrow
[10:47] <tkamppeter__> Has Ubuntu already more german developers than Novell/SuSE?
[10:48] <kwwii> dholbach: we've got to plan that artwork meeting in Berlin
[10:48] <cjwatson> oh, also, Alexander is half-time at present; I imagine we'll get used to his schedule, but he's agreed to set up a calendar
[10:48] <dholbach> kwwii: definitely :)
[10:48] <ogra> yay, hey asac
[10:48] <mdz> ok, that's all from me tonight
[10:48] <cjwatson> I think that's everything
[10:48] <mdz> any other business?
[10:48] <sfllaw> Summaries of action items in the wiki page?
[10:49] <cjwatson> I don't think I informed Till properly of the new meeting arrangements, so I'll do that
[10:49] <cjwatson> Keybuk was to do the summaries
[10:50] <mdz> summaries?
[10:50] <Keybuk> sfllaw: already done
[10:50] <mdz> oh
[10:50] <sfllaw> Sweet!
[10:50] <Keybuk> and mailed to distro-team
[10:50] <mdz> Keybuk: please mail to the list as well
[10:50] <mdz> :-)
[10:50] <tkamppeter__> cjwatson, i have seen that no one pastes his report any more.
[10:50] <cjwatson> tkamppeter__: I'll e-mail you, sorry for forgetting that this week
[10:50] <mdz> tkamppeter__: we're trying something new
[10:51] <tkamppeter__> And I really did not get any mail about the new format.
[10:51] <cjwatson> you didn't, my fault
[10:51] <mdz> tkamppeter__: cjwatson will explain to you after the meeting
[10:51] <mdz> I'm not hearing any other business
[10:51] <mdz> so let's adjourn
[10:51] <mdz> thanks, all!
[10:51] <Keybuk> thanks all
[10:51] <dholbach> good night folks - thanks all
[10:51] <mvo_> good night everyone
[10:52] <seb128> 'night
[10:52] <kylem> night.
[10:52] <doko> night
[10:52] <ogra> thanks
[10:52] <kwwii> night all, thanks
[10:52] <pitti> thanks all!
[10:52] <pkl_> good night