=== klepas [n=klepas@ppp167-251-133.static.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
=== BHSPitLappy [n=steve-o@adsl-67-64-112-231.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
=== darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
=== klepas [n=klepas@ppp167-251-133.static.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
=== Madpilot [n=brian@ubuntu/member/madpilot] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
darkmatterboy... its noisy in here ;)05:44
troy_scheck the topic darkmatter05:55
troy_sits pretty bloody impressive05:55
troy_sfirst animated svg i have seen05:55
troy_sit only apparently renders properly in firefox edgy05:56
troy_sfeisty its refresh is busted or something05:56
darkmatterthat is very impressive05:56
troy_scheck the code in the svg05:56
troy_sridiculously simple05:57
Madpilottry Opera - it animates perfectly in 9.10/Linux05:57
troy_sMadpilot: It works for me in FF205:57
troy_sBut it would be nice if the bloody gnome image app rendered it properly (read animated)05:58
darkmattercool... that code is rediculously simple06:00
darkmatterI'm keeping a copy for reference06:00
=== KaiL [n=KaiL@p548F4DD3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
darkmattertroy_s, you've seen the current state of "MorningGlory. think I shuld etch in the scrolltroughs and the rangetroughs to match the shadows/frames?06:10
troy_si would need to probably play with it a bit...06:11
troy_slet me do some symlinking.06:12
=== coz_ [n=cosimo32@pool-68-162-162-84.pitt.east.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
=== coz_ [n=cosimo32@pool-68-162-162-84.pitt.east.verizon.net] has left #ubuntu-artwork ["Leaving"]
=== msikma [n=Msikma@s55933ad4.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
=== nysosym [n=nysosym@p54B7A4B1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
nysosymgood morning :)08:27
nysosymI have an idea about a consistent design for ubuntu apps etc. . I the past i have a had a nice talk with troy_s, about devs with perfect code skills but without design skills. What we need is a design guide like OSX and Vista, well formed with many details. A new point from me, is a thing like a certificate for new apps, with a mark like "designed for ubuntu". Free for devs, tested from the community. What do u think about?08:36
nysosymFor a well integration in the ubuntu desktop08:37
nysosymand a consistent user experience08:37
nysosymsry for my english08:37
=== klepas [n=klepas@60-242-104-119.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
=== Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
darkmattermornin' klepas10:14
klepashey darkmatter10:19
klepassorry i haven't been around much as of late10:19
klepasthings should get started shortly10:19
=== nysosym [n=nysosym@p54B7A4B1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
nysosymdarkmatter: what?10:21
darkmatterhi nysosym... saw your comment earlier10:22
darkmatterthe cool was aimed at klepas ;)10:22
nysosymand, what do u think?10:22
darkmatterI totally agree.. I've been working on similar ideas... just havent added them to wiki and/or launchpad yet10:23
darkmatterthough mine was a bit more generalized than ubuntu10:23
nysosymcan u tell me your idea please? :)10:23
darkmatterwe basically need to develop a "hig" for application structure10:24
darkmattermuch like how tango established a uniform icon theme structure using the fd.o specs10:24
darkmatterthe major problem with applicationstructure is a matter of what I refer to as "widget abuse" or "misuse"10:25
nysosymyes, good point. gnome and kde have a "hig", but a very small part of devs use them10:26
darkmatterfor example... how some apps use GtkTreeView where they should use "normal" widgets10:26
darkmatteror how there are inconsistancies in ui layout10:27
darkmatterlike... seperators nect to scrollbars... or the use of frames, etc... even in enviroments with guidlines, like gnome... there is an inconsistant mishmash of ui elements10:28
darkmatterit would basically serve two purposes... one is obviously a more consistant ui10:29
nysosymyes, i have a look on them, i think we should improve the documentation...10:29
darkmatterthe second is to ease the burden on themers... so somewhat inspired by the tango project in that regard10:30
darkmatterbasically... we need to polish the hig with a secondary set of guideines... brainstorm as to what widget classes are used where10:31
darkmatterand set rules for application development to promote proper use of said widgets10:32
nysosymyes, and we need a impulsion for devs to use these guidelines10:33
nysosymmaybe a badge for her website for a perfect integration in human desktops :D10:34
darkmatterexample of a possible element.... contents must be framed and scrollbar widgets must be located within said frame (only a thought)10:35
darkmatterexample: look at an open nautilus browser window and then open a file selection dialog, or the background prefs, etc10:36
darkmatterthere is an eyesore of a discrepancy in the ui... yes they are different applications... but its irrelevant.. the fact is that there is a discrepancy in the manner in which widgets are allocated10:37
nysosymfully agreed :)10:38
darkmatterthere is a 'human' interface guidline but no interface design guidline10:38
nysosymit's the same with a different name, i think :D10:39
nysosyma perfect interface should be made for humans10:39
darkmatterthere is... in otherwords... a guide to designing the layout... but none for the aesthetic elements10:39
nysosymyes, but it's a amazing work, to finde the perfect way for all humans (old ones, childs, challenged person etc.)10:42
nysosymMaybe a dynamical interface for every category, but everyone has all function, only on a other position10:43
darkmatterthats just the initial "plan"... eventually... it would be nice (f the devs accepted the guidelines) to implement a fully governed coop methodology to the actual interface design process (basically a tag of approval... a gtk+ version of w3c certification)10:45
darkmatteris already partially implemented in the hig... but theres a lot of design methodology that is uncovered... basically its left "loose"10:46
nysosymYes, yes, we should write some important points in the wiki, for comments from every user group.10:49
nysosymbut for the next time, we should define the points in a small user group to have a overview and have a prefilter of bad points, where we think that are "good" point. Because i'm aren't a child ect.10:51
darkmattersee... the project I'm starting is currently just "live" mockups done with the pixmap engine to test design elements... eventually the idea is to great a universal engine (heavily documented) as well as a theme template... now... part of the difficulty in doing that lead to the though of a secondary hig as it were... simply... as long as widget allocation continues to be "abused" it will be a constant uphill battle to include hacks10:56
darkmatterand various other overrides in the code to compensate for "misbehaving" applications. even the most current engines require theme hacks for proper application coverage10:56
darkmatterif I'm not making sense just let me no ;) (3:56am here)10:56
darkmatterand even then... there are certain elements that cannot be fixed simply because of the manner in which the applications interface is designed10:58
nysosymsure, i think these make sense.10:59
nysosymBut a completely new engine? Ok good way, but a huge project10:59
nysosymI think we should improve the old one, for gtk 3.0 maybe10:59
darkmatterin a modern os.... regardless whether its f/oss or not... such... forgive my bluntness... sloppy and lazy design should not exist11:00
=== andreasn [n=andreas@h101n1fls31o839.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
nysosymdarkmatter: i agree with u, sloppy and lazy design can't be the future. But i think we should improve the old one, maybe use good points from the old engine and integrate them in the new. From all the best :)11:03
darkmatternysosym... part of the reason is as a template... another reason is that I actually have some ideas to polish the ui that some may consider "wasteful" or "extravagant"11:03
nysosymdo u have some mockups, to present your ideas at moment?11:04
darkmatterso by creating a well organized "template" project... devs can pull what code they wish... its not about replacing the current engine (clearlooks) or about modifying it,,, its about establishing a standard... much as tango does for icons11:05
darkmatternot atm... been experimenting with some theme work... but I'll do up some hopefully this week and start a wiki page with some thoughs11:06
nysosymdarkmatter: sure, but tango doesn't have a endless future, at moment there are although so many people, who doesn't like the design of it.11:06
darkmatterbrb... need to start a pot of coffee11:06
nysosymat moment tango looks very cool, but in a few years it looks like old and boring.11:07
nysosymok, have fun ;)11:07
nysosymand i think this could although be the problem of a new interface design11:08
nysosymhave a look on the new multitouch screen, i think that's a new standard and we should have a solution to use the engine for these although. I love the Multiscreen idea, and these is the near future.11:10
nysosymWhat we need is more dynamic in every interface, for every situation.11:11
darkmatternysosym... its not about whether or not its "cool" or if it has an "endless future"... the desktop as we know it is constantly evolving and eventually everything "ends"... even gnome as we know it now will eventually go through a chrysalis  and become something we dont regognize... but the important part is that the strengths of the preceeding generation ar incorporated into the next11:14
darkmatterdynamic is ok... to a point... if a ui is to dynamic, it adds unnecessary complexity... and theres an old saying that definitely hold true... especially for software... something along the lines of "the more complex the equipment, the easier it breaks"11:16
darkmatterbrb... xchats behaving badly11:17
=== darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
nysosymdarkmatter: sure, sry but, have u seen the multitouch screens in action? The interface what we actual use, is senseless for these technique.11:18
darkmatternysosym.... true... but dont get me started on the other project I'm planning ;)11:19
darkmatterit throws the desktop metaphor out the window then rolls over it with a semi11:20
nysosymdon't get me wrong, i have although the meaning to improve the present desktop a lot. But we must have a look in the near future, i give the multitouch system 5 years to be a standard on the market.11:22
nysosymAnd what are 5 years? nothing ^^11:22
andreasnof course the Tango style guidelines won't live for ever, heck, I guess the desktop metaphor is dead in a couple of years11:23
andreasnbut it's good to have something for ISVs and ISD _now_11:23
darkmatterI've been working it out with a friend of mine who is an uber programmer (as in... he basically makes the vast majority of developers look like infants ;))... its literally ui zen.... but considering "zen" has been overused to the point of being cliched and boring... the current working title is TiNZ (TiNZ is Not Zen) :P11:24
nysosymdarkmatter: nice, when i can help u, u know where u can find me :D11:26
nysosymthat's not a joke ^^11:26
darkmatterI know... its just that enthusiasm makes me giddy :P11:27
nysosymwhy? When we wanna improve the current desktop, we need a lot of users :D11:28
darkmatteryes... but the reason it makes me giddy, is that after hearing "but thats to much work" on a regular basis from the lax sort... its nice to here a "right on!" type of response...11:31
darkmatterpositive is a good thing11:31
=== EmxBA [n=emx@ubuntu/member/emxba] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
nysosymdarkmatter: ohh i didn't say that these to much work, i said that's a lot of work. That's a different, at moment i have many time to help and i love it to help project, when i can.11:34
darkmatterthe funny thing is that the initial work would be backward compatible... TiNZ as it stands in concept would integrate with current generation applications and the like (kbd an mouse manipulation, etc)... and I _though_ I had a team several months back... we _were_ going to work on the "proof of concept" system plugins... but the volunteers dropped out at the last (and thus most inconvenient) opportunity... that was a big disappointm11:36
darkmatternysosym, I know you never said that... and thats a good thing... the reference was to previous experience... for as I discovered... most my fellow devs are inherently lazy ;)11:37
darkmattergo figure11:37
darkmatteranyway.. kinda post-<whatever>, but good morning/afternoon/evening andreasn11:39
andreasnhi there darkmatter11:39
nysosymdarkmatter: i understand your problems, very good, how many volunteers do u have at moment?11:40
darkmatterlol... atm just a few interested parties and my guru friend11:40
nysosymOhh hi andreasn, sry for my ignorance, but i heavily busy by translation the text of darkmatter...11:40
andreasnI'm busy with work anyway, so I don't really have time to chat. :)11:41
darkmatterhave a guy thats interested in the webdev stuff... a few interested in the art end... but not many interested in actually helping to code the core11:42
darkmatterlike I said... lazy ;)11:42
nysosymdarkmatter: maybe we should make some ads, because there a only a very little circle of people who thinking on that project :)11:42
nysosymdarkmatter: ok, i'm aren't a coder (what a wonder ^^), i'm mainly the design type :D11:43
darkmatteryeah... I just need to make a few rough mockups n stuff for a general brainstorm starting point.11:43
darkmatterthats fine11:43
darkmatterdesign is a big part of development11:43
darkmatteractually... the biggest11:43
nysosymok thats goog, maybe u should give me your jabber id, if u had some ;)11:44
darkmatterone of the guys interested gave me an idea though.... and I agree... we need an oss community dedicated to "progressive interface design"11:45
darkmatterahhh... still need to reg a jabber id11:45
nysosymhehe no problem :D11:45
nysosymdarkmatter: yes, but we need a web presence, to find new people.11:47
darkmatterthats part of the ideabehind starting a site11:47
nysosymok, you said that u have a one with webdev skills? :D11:48
nysosymwhat's wrong, u need a server?11:50
darkmatteron topic of ui progression11:51
darkmatterI've had shouting matches with devs that completely lack any knowledge of user psychology11:51
darkmatterI mean... I code myself... technically a dev n all.. just no "mainstream product" as it were11:52
nysosymdarkmatter: i think http://www.berlios.de/index.php.en is a good webseite to host freely :D11:53
darkmatterbut seriously.... even using current api... you can completely transform the user experience without the need to break api compatibility an such11:53
darkmattermost devs _cannot_ come to grips with that concept11:54
darkmatternysosym, lol... why didnt I think of berlios11:54
=== darkmatter bangs head
nysosymhehe :D11:55
darkmatteruser psychology is _the_ paramount element11:55
darkmatterif you create metaphors that are user centric... even if they are only perceived as such... it creates the desired effect11:56
darkmatterthats the first stage.... basically hybridization of the environment11:57
darkmatterthat can be done _NOW_ without major work or manhours11:57
darkmatterstage two is were the real work begins... thats when you begin rewriting api at a core level11:58
nysosymhmm that's aren't easy, ok i can make an interface that's perfectly matches for my interests11:58
nysosymbut a interface for all :D11:59
nysosymwhat would be do, create a new interface on GTK+ a completely new desktop, with new widgets, menus ect.?12:00
darkmatterlol.... I'm referring to "proof of concept"...  example... you can... in a matter of minutes... create an apparently windowless environment using metacity... and I'm serious... I've tried12:01
darkmatteruser psychology is amazing12:01
darkmatterhuman perception... period. thats the primary element12:01
darkmatterahhh.... partly create a new ui12:02
nysosymmatter of minutes is easy to say :D12:02
nysosymwhat we need, are some ground ideas12:03
darkmatterbasically... a "primary" interface that... at first... is simply an extension designed to integrate with the current environment (gnome, xfce, whatever)12:03
nysosymHmm ok, therefore i should use current gtk+ elements12:04
darkmatterits user centric.... and from the users viewpoint... activity focused (basically.... in the mindset of the user, it puts there data, or "activity" as it were... first and foremost)12:05
darkmatternysosym, yes... although custom widgets may be needed to an extent... its best at first to use existing elements12:06
nysosymwell, what would we use from the old interface, panels, a dock like osx, startmenu ect.?12:07
darkmatterso... as I was saying about putting the activity first.... we'd use (as a loose example) "Surf the Internet", "Explore the Web" or something similar in place of opening a browser12:08
darkmatternysosym, at first... the only old inteface would really be the applications.... the concept (thus far... just a starting point), is to create an "activity center" (basically a shelf/wharf or whatever name you want to refer to it as and its "library" component)12:10
darkmatterit would initially offer a "hybrid mode" (would be 'standard' with the "purebreed" as the "optional" config) to aid in user migration12:11
darkmatterthe hybrid mode would have a 'menu' after a fashion12:12
nysosymok i understand a interface like the "one laptop per child" project or these one http://www.focus.de/digital/pc/senioren-pc_aid_21615.html?interface=galerie12:12
nysosymok, i need some food :D12:13
darkmatterbasically a panel with the most common activites and library shortcuts, some form of list for open documents etc12:13
darkmatterthe purebred would be quite different... an interactive shelf "basically" composed of 'miniapps'... that would serve as both a quick interface and a notification center (and excuse the following poor analogy... it doesnt do the concept justice), the miniapps or whatever the end up being referred to would be somewhat 'widget like'12:16
darkmatterthis shelf would not use a traditional menu... but would make exclusive use of the "library"12:21
darkmatterthis is where it gets interesting... so I'll wait for you to return before I continue babbling ;)12:22
klepasdarkmatter: dude, will you be on in like 2 hours?12:36
darkmatterklepas, probably be sleepin'... why?12:36
klepasfinally freed of some work and wanted to chat :)12:38
darkmatterdefinitely bugger12:39
darkmatterklepas, I can "attempt" to stay awake long enough to chat... but no promises... I'm just drained from my medical trip and should have actually been asleep several hours ago ;)12:49
=== kwwii [n=kwwii@khepri.openbios.org] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
kwwiianyone feel like making an inoc?12:52
kwwiiapport needs an icon (small sizes mainly)12:52
kwwiisent a mail to the list, so check that for more informaiton01:00
nysosymdarkmatter: i thinking on u, but i must go to work now.01:04
nysosymhave a nice day, and thx for conversation01:04
darkmatterok.. have a good day :)01:05
klepasdarkmatter: rar02:12
klepaswhat's the time for you?02:14
klepas5 AM? :P02:14
darkmatterits 7:1602:16
darkmatterjust doin' some sketchin; in front of the puter02:17
klepasall nighter, eh?02:17
darkmatteryeah... backsides to sore to sleep... lump seating on the bus02:18
klepasi need to get back into that02:18
klepassort of lost it all when i got the computer and college started02:18
klepason that note, final year is about to begin monday02:18
klepasd'oh :(02:18
darkmatterI do digital art.. but mostly for fun atm.. until I get a decent tablet... my first love was always traditional... and I need that feedback.. to feel something under my fingers... a mouse is ok... but slow.. just doesnt cut it for me speed wise02:20
darkmatterahhh.. final year eh?02:20
klepasi know exactly what you mean02:20
klepasyea man02:20
klepasi have a tablet though02:20
klepasthat i've neglected too02:20
klepasWacom Intuos3 A5-wide02:21
klepas<3 it02:21
darkmatterI want a wacom02:21
darkmatterthey're just awesome02:21
klepasif you work on a widescreen02:21
klepasget a wide tablet02:21
klepasit's sort of a must02:21
darkmatterplayed with one once.. got hooked02:21
klepasfor aspect-ratio-goodness02:21
klepasneed to get xmodmap to map my buttons to functions02:21
darkmatterhmmm... even one of the cheap lil wacoms would work ftm... I think the puter shop has a few in stock02:22
klepasi got the one i have as a gift02:23
klepasi would have gone much smaller otherwise02:23
darkmatterthen I can spit out designs n whatnot at warp speed02:23
klepasmost of my work is done in inkscape though atm02:23
klepasand it's user interface/concept/web design/web app work02:24
klepasso a tablet is more for my own leisure02:24
darkmatterthe mouse is the moost handicapped interface ever designed.... and I'm not strictly referring to its handicap with gfx utils02:24
darkmattermost of myui concept is on paper... in prismacolor...lol02:25
klepas<3 my new logitech though :P02:25
klepasnp: Various artists - Eyerer & Laib - The chord (Original Mix)02:26
darkmattertranslatng it with a mouse is slow, staged and tedious02:26
darkmatteryeah.. I love my logi too02:26
darkmatterbest mice imho02:26
darkmattercomfy and relatively ergonomic02:27
klepashttp://umart.net/au/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=5&products_id=102347 <-- after 8 months of that02:27
darkmatterstarting another to theme experiments while I continue work on MorningGlory02:28
klepashttp://umart.net/au/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=5&products_id=102982 <-- to that02:28
klepasG7 wireless :)02:28
klepasmv to pm02:29
troy_swow darkmatter... that's a lot of text :)03:38
darkmattertroy_s, yup... and its not getting finished till nysosym's back03:41
troy_swhat is that in relationship to?03:46
troy_s"basically a panel with the most common activites and library shortcuts," probably should adhere to the 7+-203:48
troy_sheading towards 503:48
troy_sand " if you create metaphors that are user centric... even if they are only perceived as such..." has some issues culturally03:50
troy_sthe metaphors are language and cultural based03:50
troy_sso ideally gnome integrates the language dependencies into the overarching design scheme03:51
troy_skwwii did you get those palette theory blocks?04:16
kwwiitroy_s: yeah, I was just looking through my mail04:16
kwwiinifty stuff04:16
troy_sGood... hopefully they are self explanatory04:17
troy_sIIRC that was the tan in question correct?04:17
troy_sIf you have another tan you are thinking of, just forward me the hex values.04:17
kwwiitroy_s: it was right on the money04:17
kwwiitoday is my birthday, so I am kinda busy...going out for dinner soon04:18
troy_sHappy birfday04:18
kwwiithanks man04:18
troy_sBy the way, those strips don't quite do justice to the idea that you can have a central base color (obviously)04:19
troy_sA good thing to try is to take your base color strip one side down into a third, and take 2/3s of it04:19
troy_sthen 1/3 of the last04:19
troy_sso you get a feel for a basic color.04:19
kwwiicool, I'll need to play around with them to get a good feeling of how they work out04:20
troy_sdarkmatter: "its not about replacing the current engine (clearlooks) or about modifying it,,, its about establishing a standard... much as tango does for icons"04:56
troy_sThe problem with that is that Icons are completely rooted in aesthetic.04:56
andreasnkwwii: happy birthday!04:56
troy_sYou can't expect Tango to meet the needs of any group without considering that the aesthetic is inherent to the set.04:56
troy_sMeaning it simply won't work for some implmentations.04:56
troy_sI was toying with a python script that twiddles values in the SVG xml to have a 'dynamic' icon set, but it requires the icons to have certain colour constants in it the same way that transparency was handled in the early days of video games (palette index 255 for example)04:57
troy_sdarkmatter:  That said, aesthetics completely aside, the issue you raise with _consistent_ application of user interface elements based on a target audience would be a very good thing to formalize in a document.04:58
andreasnall I want to have is sane interfaces that makes my customers users get their work done :)04:59
troy_sI suppose the fundamental issue is how to arrange it -- as some target audiences are hybrid types.04:59
troy_sandreasn: that's certainly a factor, but aesthetics is another real factor04:59
troy_sandreasn: and the fundamental problem is that icons are now very very obsolete -- you can't expect a new user or even a familiar user to identify a purpose based on icon04:59
troy_sit is simply impossible considering the breadth and complexity of the software landscape05:00
troy_swhich is why I am a big believer in interface elements similar to Deskbar -- use the semantics of language.05:00
andreasnyes developers put too many icons in their interfaces to make them pretty?05:00
troy_sand the fact that05:00
troy_sicon artists tend to be folks building resumes05:00
troy_swhich is completely defeatest in terms of strict functionality05:01
troy_sicons shouldn't be minor works of fine art no more than roadsigns are05:01
andreasnand you want your roadsigns to be in some particular style?05:02
troy_sI think what would be nice is an attempt to address the motifs/memes/metaphors -- but even that is complicated when you consider the scope of contemporary software in the contexts of disabilities, ethnicities, and trends.05:02
troy_sandreasn: If we could somehow come up with a way to nerf the aesthetics of icons (which I don't see happening) then yes.05:02
troy_sno -- ;)05:02
troy_sIt would be nice if we could establish glyphs for a particular size that are clear and consistent.05:02
troy_sAs soon as you add in colour and stylings though, they take on aesthetics.05:03
troy_sMy only qualm with Tango is that ultimately, it is aesthetic.05:03
=== coz_ [n=cosimo32@pool-68-162-162-84.pitt.east.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
troy_sGreetings coz_05:03
coz_troy_s, hey guy thought I wold try this tim eof the day:)05:04
troy_sYou missed quite an interesting discussion on interface earlier.05:04
troy_swhich is a good reason to idle and log the channel :)05:04
coz_oh? ok i will have to do that05:04
andreasnwell, I would say it's a about making stuff more predictable for ISVs05:04
troy_sandreasn: ?05:04
troy_sandreasn: How can you make it predictable and aesthetically integrated?05:05
troy_sandreasn: To draw an analogy, I suppose a set of overalls would do for a wedding as you have pockets for the rings, loose fitting for the length of the event, etc.05:05
troy_sandreasn: but in terms of aesthetics, it is far from optimal (not ruling out that someone might have an overall based wedding ;) )05:06
coz_troy_s, i would go to that wedding :)05:06
andreasna wedding is not a interface05:06
troy_sandreasn: An interface isn't _simply_ a control set anymore05:06
troy_sArguably a computer is an interface on some level05:06
troy_sand computers are far more important in terms of lifestyle than they ever have been.05:06
troy_sIn a similar comparison, consider cell phones and their evolution from the brick style to the xxx style.05:07
coz_andreasn, what are your views on an interface05:07
troy_sIt is a simple fact that people choose computing based on stylistic choices -- hence the "I'm a mac, I'm a pc" advertising campaign.05:08
coz_silly mac people :)05:08
troy_sWe must accept that fundamentally, computing is something much more than gadgetry -- they are becoming reflective of the beings that utilize them -- much like clothing etc.05:08
troy_scoz_ Preaching to the choir.05:08
andreasncoz_: well, right now I think it's pretty good to have a set of style guidelines that my customers that produce interfaces for letting people get their work done is a good thing05:08
troy_sandreasn: That is very ... utopian.05:09
troy_sin practical terms, what does that imply?05:09
coz_andreasn, what is it you and your customers do , i was absent from the origninal discussion05:09
troy_sDoes that include a set of design guidelines that tell them how to organize data in a GUI etc.?05:09
andreasnthat the platform is slightly more predictable05:09
andreasncoz_: applications05:10
troy_sandreasn: Are you speaking purely of web based dynamics?05:10
coz_andreasn, any particular type of applications05:10
troy_sandreasn: or for computing as a whole?05:10
andreasntroy_s: like Human Interface Guidelines?05:10
troy_sandreasn: those are a load of rubbish.05:10
troy_sandreasn: If you read through them, they are written in a completely unrealistic scope.05:10
andreasnwell, they are good, as you don't need to relearn stuff a million times05:11
troy_sandreasn: From a distinctly 'westernized' vantage I might add... (although LTR is getting a little more attention.)05:11
troy_sIf they met the needs of a particular audience they would be good -- which they do -- but they seem to ignore the fact that there are distinct classes of audience.05:11
troy_sNo one interface guideline will work for any more than a percentage of targets.05:11
coz_troy_s, I have a problem with software that is geared towrds classes of people05:12
=== PingunZ [n=PingunZ@163.9-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
coz_ot interfaces for that matter05:12
troy_sIt is simply unrealistic, useless, and completely misleading.  Not to mention that it also waters down the fact that certain people have certain needs, and that those needs must be addressed or else you risk leaving _that_ audience with a half assed implementation.05:12
troy_scoz_ Then you should examine languages role in all of this05:12
andreasnwell, of course you need to have target audiences for you application05:12
troy_slanguages, culture, abilities, etc... all different classes.05:12
troy_sNot to mention age.05:13
coz_troy_s, oh I see what you mean .... I wouldnt classify that as classes05:13
troy_sandreasn: Exactly.  And that audience will have needs that _might_ be in complete contrast to one of the established 'guidelines'05:13
coz_troy_s, age?05:13
troy_scoz_ Age -- a child will have motor differences as well as logical difference in how they approach an interface.05:13
coz_troy_s, yes i agree I used to teach elemetary school but05:14
troy_scoz_ Just as an elderly person would have motor, possible visual, audio, etc. differences.  And also a different level of interface paradigm expectation.05:14
PingunZtroy_s, have you seen my new beryl theme ?05:14
coz_troy_s, ooo new beryl theme?05:14
troy_sWe need to figure out a way to generate 'layers' based on particular needs... that could perhaps be stacked to meet the needs of a given target audience.05:14
troy_sPingunZ: no.05:14
PingunZtroy_s, http://pingunz.googlepages.com/stylish.jpeg05:14
andreasnyou could probably design a specific interface for everyone of your users, but is it practically possible?05:14
coz_andreasn, no it is not practical05:15
troy_sandreasn: Well that is part of the fundamental problem isn't it...05:15
PingunZtroy_s, like it ? :)05:15
troy_sthat approach is dead05:15
troy_sPingunZ: little windows blue vistaish for my aesthetic.  But it certainly is clean looking.05:15
troy_sandreasn: Do you think there is a way to develop smaller subsets and apply 'design guidelines'?05:16
PingunZwhy does everyone say it's vista ish ? it _isn't_05:16
troy_sFor example, a switch that you toggle for 'motor impairment', 'language', etc.05:16
troy_sPingunZ: Blue and grey05:16
andreasnI think using personas more would help GNOME a lot05:16
PingunZtroy_s, blue ?05:16
coz_PingunZ, I think the way you applied the buttons gives people the imprssion of vista but I reallt don't see that myself05:16
troy_sPingunZ: The buttons are particularly vista.  The blue is Windows/OSX.  The grey is somewhere in the middle.05:16
troy_sPingunZ: If you step back 10 feet and compare it with another screenshot, you will see what I mean.05:17
troy_sandreasn: Explain05:17
troy_sandreasn: It sounds interesting.05:17
coz_andreasn, I would also like an explanation05:17
andreasnAlan Cooper discusses it in "Inmates"05:17
troy_sandreasn: is that a reference work?  I never have heard of it.05:17
troy_sandreasn: or fiction.05:18
coz_andreasn, can we hear your own words about it05:18
andreasncan't remember if he does it in About Face05:18
coz_andreasn, I have just written letters to gnome, and had them answered about some of their approaches but I would like to know what you meant abaout personas05:18
=== PingunZ [n=PingunZ@163.9-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
coz_andreasn, more user input?05:19
andreasncoz_: made up characters that help you remember who you're designing for05:19
coz_andreasn, well then i agree with you05:19
andreasnthat's About Face 2.0, 3.0 should be out soon05:19
andreasnthere is also a quite nice book by Jef Raskin called "The Humane Interface"05:20
coz_andreasn, one of the problems I have encountered with programmers , of the old school of thinking, is that they make applications for themselves not for users05:20
andreasnin witch Jef says that icons are stupid05:20
andreasncoz_: that and a lot of "but what if...'s" :)05:21
andreasnanyway, regarding icons, we have made sure that everything is more themable now, even in applications like evince and file-roller05:21
coz_andreasn, well I like quin sotrms approach  that the line between programmer anduser is very blurred05:21
coz_quin storm05:21
andreasnsomeone just have to draw them though05:21
coz_andreasn, then let it be the user05:22
coz_that draws the line05:22
andreasnno, I mean the icons for evince and file-roller and stuff05:22
andreasnand epy as well05:22
andreasnand some other apps05:22
andreasnwell, whatever, I need to run now05:22
coz_ok I am getting general and you guys are a little more specific about this ok05:22
andreasnraskins book05:23
coz_well I find that talking about things such as this is fine but I prefer action... howver I know not what action to take05:29
=== PingunZ [n=PingunZ@163.9-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
troy_sread raskins05:53
=== andreasn_ [n=andreas@h101n1fls31o839.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
=== Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
troy_swhere the feck is gnome.applet bindings in python06:34
=== dborg_ [n=daniel@e182049240.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
=== lizardking [n=Miranda@host233-134-dynamic.20-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
=== lizardking_ [n=lizardki@] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
lizardking_Whos is there?08:00
lizardking_troy_s: I ask my friends that is a lawyer08:01
lizardking_troy_s: He tell me that There would be andy problem because art-theming and drink/food are classificated are different sectors. The trademark is applied only in the in similar category (food drink etc)08:02
troy_sgood luck defending that one though..08:03
lizardking_troy_s: However he tells me that btw the risk of getting in trouble is 0% if I change the name08:04
troy_sexactly :)08:04
lizardking_troy_s: Do you have any news from your wife?08:04
troy_snot yet08:04
troy_sbut again, that is why you hire lawyers -- they fight it out08:05
troy_sultimately, there is the possibility for trouble08:05
troy_si would just avoid it :)08:05
lizardking_troy_s: I'm just thinking "which" name08:06
lizardking_troy_s: OranSun?08:06
troy_sOrangeSoda is pretty relevant no?08:06
lizardking_troy_s: Daniel tells me how to change the product in launchpad08:06
lizardking_troy_s: OrangeSoda is good but it is a TM too08:06
troy_syes it is quite easy08:06
troy_syes but completely unrelated to a colour scheme etc.08:07
lizardking_troy_s: not exactly. the logo is dark orange and the service provided is ONLINE marketing08:09
troy_scompletely unrelated --08:09
troy_sthe issue is the fact that you used oransoda and used that as the base for the colour scheme08:09
troy_swhich _was_ related08:09
troy_sorangesoda is just a term08:09
troy_sit happens to also be a name08:09
troy_sbut they are completely unreleated in terms of colour etc...08:09
lizardking_troy_s: So, also italian Oransoda drink is completly unrelated. I did not pick the color from the oransoda italian logo.08:10
troy_sbut again, that would be a lawyer thing.08:10
troy_sWell the logo orange is close isn't it?08:10
lizardking_troy_s: I use darker tonality some times in my theme in the wallapaper :)08:10
troy_swell then i guess it isn't an issue08:10
troy_smy logic was that OranSoda doesn't exist08:10
troy_sbut OrangeSoda does08:10
troy_sOrange Soda is an actual thing08:11
troy_swhereas OranSoda can mean nothing but the soft drink in Italy.08:11
troy_sas in Orange Soda is a generic object08:12
troy_sOranSoda can be nothing but something akin to Pepsi08:12
=== msikma [n=Msikma@s55933ad4.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
=== lizardking_ [n=lizardki@] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
lizardking_troy_s: we09:29
lizardking_troy_s: I made a survey for renaming my theme09:30
lizardking_troy_s: http://FreeOnlineSurveys.com/rendersurvey.asp?sid=9o1z70uepat89xd26249409:30
lizardking_troy_s: TangerinSoda09:31
lizardking_troy_s: eheh09:32
lizardking_troy_s: TangerSoda09:32
lizardking_Arancia is the orange fruit in italian09:33
lizardking_troy_s: I'm a genious. OrunSoda09:36
lizardking_how did you spell it?09:36
lizardking_O run Soda09:36
lizardking_O run Soda -> oransoda09:36
troy_sWhat is an oran?09:37
troy_sor an orun for that matter?09:37
lizardking_troy_s: it is nothing09:37
lizardking_troy_s: Just the pronunce of orun is like oran09:37
lizardking_if you say running.. hihihi09:37
lizardking_troy_s: in spanish it's cool http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naranja_(fruto)09:39
msikmaI don't get it. a petition to name his theme without showing what it even looks like.10:25
=== andreasn_ is now known as andreasn
=== darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
troy_swb darkmatter11:43
darkmatterafternoon troy_s11:43
=== troy_s [n=aphorism@d206-116-6-170.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
=== dborg_ is now known as dborg

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!