[05:44] <darkmatter> boy... its noisy in here ;)
[05:46] <elkbuntu> deafeningly
[05:55] <troy_s> check the topic darkmatter
[05:55] <troy_s> its pretty bloody impressive
[05:55] <troy_s> first animated svg i have seen
[05:55] <darkmatter> looking
[05:56] <troy_s> it only apparently renders properly in firefox edgy
[05:56] <troy_s> feisty its refresh is busted or something
[05:56] <darkmatter> that is very impressive
[05:56] <troy_s> check the code in the svg
[05:57] <troy_s> ridiculously simple
[05:57] <Madpilot> try Opera - it animates perfectly in 9.10/Linux
[05:57] <darkmatter> looking
[05:57] <troy_s> Madpilot: It works for me in FF2
[05:58] <troy_s> But it would be nice if the bloody gnome image app rendered it properly (read animated)
[06:00] <darkmatter> cool... that code is rediculously simple
[06:00] <darkmatter> I'm keeping a copy for reference
[06:10] <darkmatter> troy_s, you've seen the current state of "MorningGlory. think I shuld etch in the scrolltroughs and the rangetroughs to match the shadows/frames?
[06:11] <troy_s> i would need to probably play with it a bit...
[06:12] <troy_s> let me do some symlinking.
[06:12] <darkmatter> k
[08:27] <nysosym> good morning :)
[08:36] <nysosym> I have an idea about a consistent design for ubuntu apps etc. . I the past i have a had a nice talk with troy_s, about devs with perfect code skills but without design skills. What we need is a design guide like OSX and Vista, well formed with many details. A new point from me, is a thing like a certificate for new apps, with a mark like "designed for ubuntu". Free for devs, tested from the community. What do u think about?
[08:37] <nysosym> For a well integration in the ubuntu desktop
[08:37] <nysosym> and a consistent user experience
[08:37] <nysosym> sry for my english
[10:14] <darkmatter> mornin' klepas
[10:19] <klepas> hey darkmatter
[10:19] <klepas> sorry i haven't been around much as of late
[10:19] <klepas> things should get started shortly
[10:20] <nysosym> r
[10:20] <nysosym> e
[10:21] <darkmatter> cool
[10:21] <nysosym> darkmatter: what?
[10:22] <darkmatter> hi nysosym... saw your comment earlier
[10:22] <darkmatter> the cool was aimed at klepas ;)
[10:22] <nysosym> and, what do u think?
[10:23] <darkmatter> I totally agree.. I've been working on similar ideas... just havent added them to wiki and/or launchpad yet
[10:23] <darkmatter> though mine was a bit more generalized than ubuntu
[10:23] <nysosym> can u tell me your idea please? :)
[10:24] <darkmatter> we basically need to develop a "hig" for application structure
[10:24] <darkmatter> much like how tango established a uniform icon theme structure using the fd.o specs
[10:25] <darkmatter> the major problem with applicationstructure is a matter of what I refer to as "widget abuse" or "misuse"
[10:26] <nysosym> yes, good point. gnome and kde have a "hig", but a very small part of devs use them
[10:26] <darkmatter> for example... how some apps use GtkTreeView where they should use "normal" widgets
[10:27] <darkmatter> or how there are inconsistancies in ui layout
[10:28] <darkmatter> like... seperators nect to scrollbars... or the use of frames, etc... even in enviroments with guidlines, like gnome... there is an inconsistant mishmash of ui elements
[10:29] <darkmatter> it would basically serve two purposes... one is obviously a more consistant ui
[10:29] <nysosym> yes, i have a look on them, i think we should improve the documentation...
[10:30] <darkmatter> the second is to ease the burden on themers... so somewhat inspired by the tango project in that regard
[10:31] <darkmatter> basically... we need to polish the hig with a secondary set of guideines... brainstorm as to what widget classes are used where
[10:32] <darkmatter> and set rules for application development to promote proper use of said widgets
[10:33] <nysosym> yes, and we need a impulsion for devs to use these guidelines
[10:33] <darkmatter> yes
[10:34] <nysosym> maybe a badge for her website for a perfect integration in human desktops :D
[10:35] <darkmatter> example of a possible element.... contents must be framed and scrollbar widgets must be located within said frame (only a thought)
[10:36] <darkmatter> example: look at an open nautilus browser window and then open a file selection dialog, or the background prefs, etc
[10:37] <darkmatter> there is an eyesore of a discrepancy in the ui... yes they are different applications... but its irrelevant.. the fact is that there is a discrepancy in the manner in which widgets are allocated
[10:38] <nysosym> fully agreed :)
[10:38] <darkmatter> there is a 'human' interface guidline but no interface design guidline
[10:39] <nysosym> it's the same with a different name, i think :D
[10:39] <nysosym> a perfect interface should be made for humans
[10:39] <darkmatter> there is... in otherwords... a guide to designing the layout... but none for the aesthetic elements
[10:39] <darkmatter> aye
[10:42] <nysosym> yes, but it's a amazing work, to finde the perfect way for all humans (old ones, childs, challenged person etc.)
[10:42] <darkmatter> yes
[10:43] <nysosym> Maybe a dynamical interface for every category, but everyone has all function, only on a other position
[10:45] <darkmatter> thats just the initial "plan"... eventually... it would be nice (f the devs accepted the guidelines) to implement a fully governed coop methodology to the actual interface design process (basically a tag of approval... a gtk+ version of w3c certification)
[10:46] <darkmatter> is already partially implemented in the hig... but theres a lot of design methodology that is uncovered... basically its left "loose"
[10:49] <nysosym> Yes, yes, we should write some important points in the wiki, for comments from every user group.
[10:49] <darkmatter> yes
[10:51] <nysosym> but for the next time, we should define the points in a small user group to have a overview and have a prefilter of bad points, where we think that are "good" point. Because i'm aren't a child ect.
[10:56] <darkmatter> see... the project I'm starting is currently just "live" mockups done with the pixmap engine to test design elements... eventually the idea is to great a universal engine (heavily documented) as well as a theme template... now... part of the difficulty in doing that lead to the though of a secondary hig as it were... simply... as long as widget allocation continues to be "abused" it will be a constant uphill battle to include hacks
[10:56] <darkmatter> and various other overrides in the code to compensate for "misbehaving" applications. even the most current engines require theme hacks for proper application coverage
[10:56] <darkmatter> if I'm not making sense just let me no ;) (3:56am here)
[10:58] <darkmatter> and even then... there are certain elements that cannot be fixed simply because of the manner in which the applications interface is designed
[10:59] <nysosym> sure, i think these make sense.
[10:59] <nysosym> But a completely new engine? Ok good way, but a huge project
[10:59] <nysosym> I think we should improve the old one, for gtk 3.0 maybe
[11:00] <darkmatter> in a modern os.... regardless whether its f/oss or not... such... forgive my bluntness... sloppy and lazy design should not exist
[11:03] <nysosym> darkmatter: i agree with u, sloppy and lazy design can't be the future. But i think we should improve the old one, maybe use good points from the old engine and integrate them in the new. From all the best :)
[11:03] <darkmatter> nysosym... part of the reason is as a template... another reason is that I actually have some ideas to polish the ui that some may consider "wasteful" or "extravagant"
[11:04] <nysosym> do u have some mockups, to present your ideas at moment?
[11:05] <darkmatter> so by creating a well organized "template" project... devs can pull what code they wish... its not about replacing the current engine (clearlooks) or about modifying it,,, its about establishing a standard... much as tango does for icons
[11:06] <darkmatter> not atm... been experimenting with some theme work... but I'll do up some hopefully this week and start a wiki page with some thoughs
[11:06] <nysosym> darkmatter: sure, but tango doesn't have a endless future, at moment there are although so many people, who doesn't like the design of it.
[11:06] <darkmatter> brb... need to start a pot of coffee
[11:07] <nysosym> at moment tango looks very cool, but in a few years it looks like old and boring.
[11:07] <nysosym> ok, have fun ;)
[11:08] <nysosym> and i think this could although be the problem of a new interface design
[11:10] <nysosym> have a look on the new multitouch screen, i think that's a new standard and we should have a solution to use the engine for these although. I love the Multiscreen idea, and these is the near future.
[11:11] <nysosym> What we need is more dynamic in every interface, for every situation.
[11:14] <darkmatter> nysosym... its not about whether or not its "cool" or if it has an "endless future"... the desktop as we know it is constantly evolving and eventually everything "ends"... even gnome as we know it now will eventually go through a chrysalis  and become something we dont regognize... but the important part is that the strengths of the preceeding generation ar incorporated into the next
[11:16] <darkmatter> dynamic is ok... to a point... if a ui is to dynamic, it adds unnecessary complexity... and theres an old saying that definitely hold true... especially for software... something along the lines of "the more complex the equipment, the easier it breaks"
[11:16] <darkmatter> ;)
[11:17] <darkmatter> brb... xchats behaving badly
[11:18] <nysosym> darkmatter: sure, sry but, have u seen the multitouch screens in action? The interface what we actual use, is senseless for these technique.
[11:19] <darkmatter> nysosym.... true... but dont get me started on the other project I'm planning ;)
[11:20] <darkmatter> it throws the desktop metaphor out the window then rolls over it with a semi
[11:20] <darkmatter> :P
[11:22] <nysosym> don't get me wrong, i have although the meaning to improve the present desktop a lot. But we must have a look in the near future, i give the multitouch system 5 years to be a standard on the market.
[11:22] <nysosym> And what are 5 years? nothing ^^
[11:23] <andreasn> of course the Tango style guidelines won't live for ever, heck, I guess the desktop metaphor is dead in a couple of years
[11:23] <andreasn> but it's good to have something for ISVs and ISD _now_
[11:24] <darkmatter> I've been working it out with a friend of mine who is an uber programmer (as in... he basically makes the vast majority of developers look like infants ;))... its literally ui zen.... but considering "zen" has been overused to the point of being cliched and boring... the current working title is TiNZ (TiNZ is Not Zen) :P
[11:26] <nysosym> darkmatter: nice, when i can help u, u know where u can find me :D
[11:26] <darkmatter> lol
[11:26] <darkmatter> ;)
[11:26] <nysosym> that's not a joke ^^
[11:27] <darkmatter> I know... its just that enthusiasm makes me giddy :P
[11:27] <darkmatter> haha
[11:28] <nysosym> why? When we wanna improve the current desktop, we need a lot of users :D
[11:31] <darkmatter> yes... but the reason it makes me giddy, is that after hearing "but thats to much work" on a regular basis from the lax sort... its nice to here a "right on!" type of response...
[11:31] <darkmatter> positive is a good thing
[11:34] <nysosym> darkmatter: ohh i didn't say that these to much work, i said that's a lot of work. That's a different, at moment i have many time to help and i love it to help project, when i can.
[11:36] <darkmatter> the funny thing is that the initial work would be backward compatible... TiNZ as it stands in concept would integrate with current generation applications and the like (kbd an mouse manipulation, etc)... and I _though_ I had a team several months back... we _were_ going to work on the "proof of concept" system plugins... but the volunteers dropped out at the last (and thus most inconvenient) opportunity... that was a big disappointm
[11:36] <darkmatter> ent
[11:37] <darkmatter> nysosym, I know you never said that... and thats a good thing... the reference was to previous experience... for as I discovered... most my fellow devs are inherently lazy ;)
[11:37] <darkmatter> go figure
[11:37] <darkmatter> :P
[11:39] <darkmatter> anyway.. kinda post-<whatever>, but good morning/afternoon/evening andreasn
[11:39] <andreasn> hi there darkmatter
[11:40] <nysosym> darkmatter: i understand your problems, very good, how many volunteers do u have at moment?
[11:40] <darkmatter> lol... atm just a few interested parties and my guru friend
[11:40] <nysosym> Ohh hi andreasn, sry for my ignorance, but i heavily busy by translation the text of darkmatter...
[11:41] <andreasn> I'm busy with work anyway, so I don't really have time to chat. :)
[11:42] <darkmatter> have a guy thats interested in the webdev stuff... a few interested in the art end... but not many interested in actually helping to code the core
[11:42] <darkmatter> like I said... lazy ;)
[11:42] <nysosym> darkmatter: maybe we should make some ads, because there a only a very little circle of people who thinking on that project :)
[11:43] <nysosym> darkmatter: ok, i'm aren't a coder (what a wonder ^^), i'm mainly the design type :D
[11:43] <darkmatter> yeah... I just need to make a few rough mockups n stuff for a general brainstorm starting point.
[11:43] <darkmatter> thats fine
[11:43] <darkmatter> design is a big part of development
[11:43] <darkmatter> actually... the biggest
[11:44] <nysosym> ok thats goog, maybe u should give me your jabber id, if u had some ;)
[11:45] <darkmatter> one of the guys interested gave me an idea though.... and I agree... we need an oss community dedicated to "progressive interface design"
[11:45] <darkmatter> ahhh... still need to reg a jabber id
[11:45] <nysosym> hehe no problem :D
[11:47] <nysosym> darkmatter: yes, but we need a web presence, to find new people.
[11:47] <darkmatter> yes
[11:47] <darkmatter> thats part of the ideabehind starting a site
[11:48] <nysosym> ok, you said that u have a one with webdev skills? :D
[11:49] <darkmatter> yup
[11:50] <nysosym> what's wrong, u need a server?
[11:50] <darkmatter> basically
[11:51] <darkmatter> on topic of ui progression
[11:51] <darkmatter> I've had shouting matches with devs that completely lack any knowledge of user psychology
[11:52] <darkmatter> I mean... I code myself... technically a dev n all.. just no "mainstream product" as it were
[11:53] <nysosym> darkmatter: i think http://www.berlios.de/index.php.en is a good webseite to host freely :D
[11:53] <darkmatter> but seriously.... even using current api... you can completely transform the user experience without the need to break api compatibility an such
[11:54] <darkmatter> most devs _cannot_ come to grips with that concept
[11:54] <darkmatter> nysosym, lol... why didnt I think of berlios
[11:55] <nysosym> hehe :D
[11:55] <darkmatter> user psychology is _the_ paramount element
[11:56] <darkmatter> if you create metaphors that are user centric... even if they are only perceived as such... it creates the desired effect
[11:57] <darkmatter> thats the first stage.... basically hybridization of the environment
[11:57] <darkmatter> that can be done _NOW_ without major work or manhours
[11:58] <darkmatter> stage two is were the real work begins... thats when you begin rewriting api at a core level
[11:58] <nysosym> hmm that's aren't easy, ok i can make an interface that's perfectly matches for my interests
[11:59] <nysosym> but a interface for all :D
[12:00] <nysosym> what would be do, create a new interface on GTK+ a completely new desktop, with new widgets, menus ect.?
[12:00] <nysosym> be=we
[12:01] <darkmatter> lol.... I'm referring to "proof of concept"...  example... you can... in a matter of minutes... create an apparently windowless environment using metacity... and I'm serious... I've tried
[12:01] <darkmatter> user psychology is amazing
[12:01] <darkmatter> human perception... period. thats the primary element
[12:02] <darkmatter> ahhh.... partly create a new ui
[12:02] <nysosym> matter of minutes is easy to say :D
[12:03] <nysosym> what we need, are some ground ideas
[12:03] <darkmatter> basically... a "primary" interface that... at first... is simply an extension designed to integrate with the current environment (gnome, xfce, whatever)
[12:04] <nysosym> Hmm ok, therefore i should use current gtk+ elements
[12:05] <darkmatter> its user centric.... and from the users viewpoint... activity focused (basically.... in the mindset of the user, it puts there data, or "activity" as it were... first and foremost)
[12:06] <darkmatter> nysosym, yes... although custom widgets may be needed to an extent... its best at first to use existing elements
[12:07] <nysosym> well, what would we use from the old interface, panels, a dock like osx, startmenu ect.?
[12:08] <darkmatter> so... as I was saying about putting the activity first.... we'd use (as a loose example) "Surf the Internet", "Explore the Web" or something similar in place of opening a browser
[12:10] <darkmatter> nysosym, at first... the only old inteface would really be the applications.... the concept (thus far... just a starting point), is to create an "activity center" (basically a shelf/wharf or whatever name you want to refer to it as and its "library" component)
[12:11] <darkmatter> it would initially offer a "hybrid mode" (would be 'standard' with the "purebreed" as the "optional" config) to aid in user migration
[12:12] <darkmatter> the hybrid mode would have a 'menu' after a fashion
[12:12] <nysosym> ok i understand a interface like the "one laptop per child" project or these one http://www.focus.de/digital/pc/senioren-pc_aid_21615.html?interface=galerie
[12:13] <nysosym> ok, i need some food :D
[12:13] <nysosym> brb
[12:13] <darkmatter> basically a panel with the most common activites and library shortcuts, some form of list for open documents etc
[12:13] <darkmatter> kk
[12:16] <darkmatter> the purebred would be quite different... an interactive shelf "basically" composed of 'miniapps'... that would serve as both a quick interface and a notification center (and excuse the following poor analogy... it doesnt do the concept justice), the miniapps or whatever the end up being referred to would be somewhat 'widget like'
[12:21] <darkmatter> this shelf would not use a traditional menu... but would make exclusive use of the "library"
[12:22] <darkmatter> this is where it gets interesting... so I'll wait for you to return before I continue babbling ;)
[12:36] <klepas> darkmatter: dude, will you be on in like 2 hours?
[12:36] <darkmatter> klepas, probably be sleepin'... why?
[12:38] <klepas> bugger
[12:38] <klepas> finally freed of some work and wanted to chat :)
[12:39] <darkmatter> lol
[12:39] <darkmatter> definitely bugger
[12:49] <darkmatter> klepas, I can "attempt" to stay awake long enough to chat... but no promises... I'm just drained from my medical trip and should have actually been asleep several hours ago ;)
[12:51] <kwwii> moin
[12:52] <kwwii> anyone feel like making an inoc?
[12:52] <kwwii> s/inoc/icon
[12:52] <kwwii> apport needs an icon (small sizes mainly)
[01:00] <kwwii> sent a mail to the list, so check that for more informaiton
[01:04] <nysosym> darkmatter: i thinking on u, but i must go to work now.
[01:04] <nysosym> have a nice day, and thx for conversation
[01:05] <darkmatter> ok.. have a good day :)
[02:12] <klepas> darkmatter: rar
[02:13] <darkmatter> yo'
[02:14] <klepas> what's the time for you?
[02:14] <klepas> 5 AM? :P
[02:16] <darkmatter> lol
[02:16] <darkmatter> actually
[02:16] <darkmatter> its 7:16
[02:16] <darkmatter> am
[02:16] <darkmatter> :P
[02:17] <darkmatter> just doin' some sketchin; in front of the puter
[02:17] <klepas> all nighter, eh?
[02:18] <klepas> tablet?
[02:18] <darkmatter> yeah... backsides to sore to sleep... lump seating on the bus
[02:18] <darkmatter> nope
[02:18] <darkmatter> sketchbook
[02:18] <darkmatter> ;)
[02:18] <klepas> i need to get back into that
[02:18] <klepas> sort of lost it all when i got the computer and college started
[02:18] <klepas> on that note, final year is about to begin monday
[02:18] <klepas> d'oh :(
[02:20] <darkmatter> I do digital art.. but mostly for fun atm.. until I get a decent tablet... my first love was always traditional... and I need that feedback.. to feel something under my fingers... a mouse is ok... but slow.. just doesnt cut it for me speed wise
[02:20] <darkmatter> ahhh.. final year eh?
[02:20] <klepas> i know exactly what you mean
[02:20] <klepas> yea man
[02:20] <klepas> i have a tablet though
[02:20] <klepas> that i've neglected too
[02:21] <klepas> Wacom Intuos3 A5-wide
[02:21] <klepas> <3 it
[02:21] <darkmatter> ahh
[02:21] <darkmatter> I want a wacom
[02:21] <darkmatter> badly
[02:21] <darkmatter> they're just awesome
[02:21] <klepas> if you work on a widescreen
[02:21] <klepas> get a wide tablet
[02:21] <klepas> it's sort of a must
[02:21] <darkmatter> played with one once.. got hooked
[02:21] <klepas> for aspect-ratio-goodness
[02:21] <klepas> mhh
[02:21] <darkmatter> yup
[02:21] <klepas> need to get xmodmap to map my buttons to functions
[02:22] <darkmatter> hmmm... even one of the cheap lil wacoms would work ftm... I think the puter shop has a few in stock
[02:23] <klepas> yea
[02:23] <klepas> i got the one i have as a gift
[02:23] <klepas> i would have gone much smaller otherwise
[02:23] <darkmatter> then I can spit out designs n whatnot at warp speed
[02:23] <klepas> :)
[02:23] <klepas> most of my work is done in inkscape though atm
[02:24] <klepas> and it's user interface/concept/web design/web app work
[02:24] <klepas> so a tablet is more for my own leisure
[02:24] <darkmatter> the mouse is the moost handicapped interface ever designed.... and I'm not strictly referring to its handicap with gfx utils
[02:24] <darkmatter> cool
[02:25] <darkmatter> most of myui concept is on paper... in prismacolor...lol
[02:25] <klepas> <3 my new logitech though :P
[02:26] <klepas> np: Various artists - Eyerer & Laib - The chord (Original Mix)
[02:26] <darkmatter> translatng it with a mouse is slow, staged and tedious
[02:26] <darkmatter> yeah.. I love my logi too
[02:26] <darkmatter> best mice imho
[02:27] <darkmatter> comfy and relatively ergonomic
[02:27] <klepas> http://umart.net/au/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=5&products_id=102347 <-- after 8 months of that
[02:28] <darkmatter> starting another to theme experiments while I continue work on MorningGlory
[02:28] <klepas> http://umart.net/au/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=5&products_id=102982 <-- to that
[02:28] <klepas> G7 wireless :)
[02:28] <klepas> http://umart.net/au/images/logg7.jpg
[02:28] <darkmatter> nice
[02:29] <klepas> mv to pm
[03:38] <troy_s> wow darkmatter... that's a lot of text :)
[03:41] <darkmatter> troy_s, yup... and its not getting finished till nysosym's back
[03:41] <darkmatter> :P
[03:46] <troy_s> what is that in relationship to?
[03:48] <troy_s> "basically a panel with the most common activites and library shortcuts," probably should adhere to the 7+-2
[03:48] <troy_s> heading towards 5
[03:50] <troy_s> and " if you create metaphors that are user centric... even if they are only perceived as such..." has some issues culturally
[03:50] <troy_s> the metaphors are language and cultural based
[03:51] <troy_s> so ideally gnome integrates the language dependencies into the overarching design scheme
[04:16] <troy_s> kwwii did you get those palette theory blocks?
[04:16] <kwwii> troy_s: yeah, I was just looking through my mail
[04:16] <kwwii> nifty stuff
[04:17] <troy_s> Good... hopefully they are self explanatory
[04:17] <troy_s> IIRC that was the tan in question correct?
[04:17] <troy_s> If you have another tan you are thinking of, just forward me the hex values.
[04:17] <kwwii> troy_s: it was right on the money
[04:18] <kwwii> today is my birthday, so I am kinda busy...going out for dinner soon
[04:18] <troy_s> Woot.
[04:18] <troy_s> Happy birfday
[04:18] <kwwii> thanks man
[04:19] <troy_s> By the way, those strips don't quite do justice to the idea that you can have a central base color (obviously)
[04:19] <kwwii> true
[04:19] <troy_s> A good thing to try is to take your base color strip one side down into a third, and take 2/3s of it
[04:19] <troy_s> then 1/3 of the last
[04:19] <troy_s> so you get a feel for a basic color.
[04:20] <kwwii> cool, I'll need to play around with them to get a good feeling of how they work out
[04:56] <troy_s> darkmatter: "its not about replacing the current engine (clearlooks) or about modifying it,,, its about establishing a standard... much as tango does for icons"
[04:56] <troy_s> The problem with that is that Icons are completely rooted in aesthetic.
[04:56] <andreasn> kwwii: happy birthday!
[04:56] <troy_s> You can't expect Tango to meet the needs of any group without considering that the aesthetic is inherent to the set.
[04:56] <troy_s> Meaning it simply won't work for some implmentations.
[04:57] <troy_s> I was toying with a python script that twiddles values in the SVG xml to have a 'dynamic' icon set, but it requires the icons to have certain colour constants in it the same way that transparency was handled in the early days of video games (palette index 255 for example)
[04:58] <troy_s> darkmatter:  That said, aesthetics completely aside, the issue you raise with _consistent_ application of user interface elements based on a target audience would be a very good thing to formalize in a document.
[04:59] <andreasn> all I want to have is sane interfaces that makes my customers users get their work done :)
[04:59] <troy_s> I suppose the fundamental issue is how to arrange it -- as some target audiences are hybrid types.
[04:59] <troy_s> andreasn: that's certainly a factor, but aesthetics is another real factor
[04:59] <troy_s> andreasn: and the fundamental problem is that icons are now very very obsolete -- you can't expect a new user or even a familiar user to identify a purpose based on icon
[05:00] <troy_s> it is simply impossible considering the breadth and complexity of the software landscape
[05:00] <troy_s> which is why I am a big believer in interface elements similar to Deskbar -- use the semantics of language.
[05:00] <andreasn> yes developers put too many icons in their interfaces to make them pretty?
[05:00] <troy_s> yes
[05:00] <troy_s> and the fact that
[05:00] <troy_s> icon artists tend to be folks building resumes
[05:01] <troy_s> which is completely defeatest in terms of strict functionality
[05:01] <troy_s> icons shouldn't be minor works of fine art no more than roadsigns are
[05:01] <andreasn> agreed
[05:02] <andreasn> and you want your roadsigns to be in some particular style?
[05:02] <troy_s> I think what would be nice is an attempt to address the motifs/memes/metaphors -- but even that is complicated when you consider the scope of contemporary software in the contexts of disabilities, ethnicities, and trends.
[05:02] <troy_s> andreasn: If we could somehow come up with a way to nerf the aesthetics of icons (which I don't see happening) then yes.
[05:02] <troy_s> erm
[05:02] <troy_s> no -- ;)
[05:02] <troy_s> It would be nice if we could establish glyphs for a particular size that are clear and consistent.
[05:03] <troy_s> As soon as you add in colour and stylings though, they take on aesthetics.
[05:03] <troy_s> My only qualm with Tango is that ultimately, it is aesthetic.
[05:03] <troy_s> Greetings coz_
[05:04] <coz_> troy_s, hey guy thought I wold try this tim eof the day:)
[05:04] <troy_s> You missed quite an interesting discussion on interface earlier.
[05:04] <troy_s> which is a good reason to idle and log the channel :)
[05:04] <coz_> oh? ok i will have to do that
[05:04] <andreasn> well, I would say it's a about making stuff more predictable for ISVs
[05:04] <troy_s> andreasn: ?
[05:05] <troy_s> andreasn: How can you make it predictable and aesthetically integrated?
[05:05] <troy_s> andreasn: To draw an analogy, I suppose a set of overalls would do for a wedding as you have pockets for the rings, loose fitting for the length of the event, etc.
[05:06] <troy_s> andreasn: but in terms of aesthetics, it is far from optimal (not ruling out that someone might have an overall based wedding ;) )
[05:06] <coz_> troy_s, i would go to that wedding :)
[05:06] <andreasn> a wedding is not a interface
[05:06] <troy_s> andreasn: An interface isn't _simply_ a control set anymore
[05:06] <troy_s> Arguably a computer is an interface on some level
[05:06] <troy_s> and computers are far more important in terms of lifestyle than they ever have been.
[05:07] <troy_s> In a similar comparison, consider cell phones and their evolution from the brick style to the xxx style.
[05:07] <coz_> andreasn, what are your views on an interface
[05:08] <troy_s> It is a simple fact that people choose computing based on stylistic choices -- hence the "I'm a mac, I'm a pc" advertising campaign.
[05:08] <coz_> silly mac people :)
[05:08] <troy_s> We must accept that fundamentally, computing is something much more than gadgetry -- they are becoming reflective of the beings that utilize them -- much like clothing etc.
[05:08] <troy_s> coz_ Preaching to the choir.
[05:08] <troy_s> ;)
[05:08] <coz_> lol
[05:08] <andreasn> coz_: well, right now I think it's pretty good to have a set of style guidelines that my customers that produce interfaces for letting people get their work done is a good thing
[05:09] <troy_s> andreasn: That is very ... utopian.
[05:09] <troy_s> in practical terms, what does that imply?
[05:09] <coz_> andreasn, what is it you and your customers do , i was absent from the origninal discussion
[05:09] <troy_s> Does that include a set of design guidelines that tell them how to organize data in a GUI etc.?
[05:09] <andreasn> that the platform is slightly more predictable
[05:10] <andreasn> coz_: applications
[05:10] <troy_s> andreasn: Are you speaking purely of web based dynamics?
[05:10] <coz_> andreasn, any particular type of applications
[05:10] <troy_s> andreasn: or for computing as a whole?
[05:10] <andreasn> troy_s: like Human Interface Guidelines?
[05:10] <troy_s> andreasn: those are a load of rubbish.
[05:10] <troy_s> andreasn: If you read through them, they are written in a completely unrealistic scope.
[05:11] <andreasn> well, they are good, as you don't need to relearn stuff a million times
[05:11] <troy_s> andreasn: From a distinctly 'westernized' vantage I might add... (although LTR is getting a little more attention.)
[05:11] <troy_s> If they met the needs of a particular audience they would be good -- which they do -- but they seem to ignore the fact that there are distinct classes of audience.
[05:11] <troy_s> No one interface guideline will work for any more than a percentage of targets.
[05:12] <coz_> troy_s, I have a problem with software that is geared towrds classes of people
[05:12] <coz_> ot interfaces for that matter
[05:12] <troy_s> It is simply unrealistic, useless, and completely misleading.  Not to mention that it also waters down the fact that certain people have certain needs, and that those needs must be addressed or else you risk leaving _that_ audience with a half assed implementation.
[05:12] <troy_s> coz_ Then you should examine languages role in all of this
[05:12] <andreasn> well, of course you need to have target audiences for you application
[05:12] <troy_s> languages, culture, abilities, etc... all different classes.
[05:13] <troy_s> Not to mention age.
[05:13] <coz_> troy_s, oh I see what you mean .... I wouldnt classify that as classes
[05:13] <troy_s> andreasn: Exactly.  And that audience will have needs that _might_ be in complete contrast to one of the established 'guidelines'
[05:13] <coz_> troy_s, age?
[05:13] <troy_s> coz_ Age -- a child will have motor differences as well as logical difference in how they approach an interface.
[05:14] <coz_> troy_s, yes i agree I used to teach elemetary school but
[05:14] <troy_s> coz_ Just as an elderly person would have motor, possible visual, audio, etc. differences.  And also a different level of interface paradigm expectation.
[05:14] <PingunZ> troy_s, have you seen my new beryl theme ?
[05:14] <coz_> troy_s, ooo new beryl theme?
[05:14] <troy_s> We need to figure out a way to generate 'layers' based on particular needs... that could perhaps be stacked to meet the needs of a given target audience.
[05:14] <troy_s> PingunZ: no.
[05:14] <PingunZ> troy_s, http://pingunz.googlepages.com/stylish.jpeg
[05:14] <andreasn> you could probably design a specific interface for everyone of your users, but is it practically possible?
[05:15] <coz_> andreasn, no it is not practical
[05:15] <troy_s> andreasn: Well that is part of the fundamental problem isn't it...
[05:15] <PingunZ> troy_s, like it ? :)
[05:15] <troy_s> that approach is dead
[05:15] <troy_s> PingunZ: little windows blue vistaish for my aesthetic.  But it certainly is clean looking.
[05:16] <troy_s> andreasn: Do you think there is a way to develop smaller subsets and apply 'design guidelines'?
[05:16] <PingunZ> why does everyone say it's vista ish ? it _isn't_
[05:16] <troy_s> For example, a switch that you toggle for 'motor impairment', 'language', etc.
[05:16] <troy_s> PingunZ: Blue and grey
[05:16] <andreasn> I think using personas more would help GNOME a lot
[05:16] <PingunZ> troy_s, blue ?
[05:16] <coz_> PingunZ, I think the way you applied the buttons gives people the imprssion of vista but I reallt don't see that myself
[05:16] <troy_s> PingunZ: The buttons are particularly vista.  The blue is Windows/OSX.  The grey is somewhere in the middle.
[05:17] <troy_s> PingunZ: If you step back 10 feet and compare it with another screenshot, you will see what I mean.
[05:17] <troy_s> andreasn: Explain
[05:17] <troy_s> andreasn: It sounds interesting.
[05:17] <PingunZ> sheesh
[05:17] <troy_s> lol
[05:17] <coz_> andreasn, I would also like an explanation
[05:17] <andreasn> Alan Cooper discusses it in "Inmates"
[05:17] <troy_s> andreasn: is that a reference work?  I never have heard of it.
[05:18] <troy_s> andreasn: or fiction.
[05:18] <coz_> andreasn, can we hear your own words about it
[05:18] <andreasn> can't remember if he does it in About Face
[05:18] <andreasn> http://www.amazon.com/Inmates-Are-Running-Asylum-Products/dp/0672326140/sr=8-1/qid=1170433102/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-9766325-5571011?ie=UTF8&s=books
[05:18] <coz_> andreasn, I have just written letters to gnome, and had them answered about some of their approaches but I would like to know what you meant abaout personas
[05:19] <coz_> andreasn, more user input?
[05:19] <andreasn> coz_: made up characters that help you remember who you're designing for
[05:19] <andreasn> http://www.amazon.com/About-Face-2-0-Essentials-Interaction/dp/0764526413/sr=8-1/qid=1170433129/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-9766325-5571011?ie=UTF8&s=books
[05:19] <coz_> andreasn, well then i agree with you
[05:19] <andreasn> that's About Face 2.0, 3.0 should be out soon
[05:20] <andreasn> there is also a quite nice book by Jef Raskin called "The Humane Interface"
[05:20] <coz_> andreasn, one of the problems I have encountered with programmers , of the old school of thinking, is that they make applications for themselves not for users
[05:20] <andreasn> in witch Jef says that icons are stupid
[05:21] <andreasn> coz_: that and a lot of "but what if...'s" :)
[05:21] <andreasn> anyway, regarding icons, we have made sure that everything is more themable now, even in applications like evince and file-roller
[05:21] <coz_> andreasn, well I like quin sotrms approach  that the line between programmer anduser is very blurred
[05:21] <coz_> quin storm
[05:21] <andreasn> someone just have to draw them though
[05:22] <coz_> andreasn, then let it be the user
[05:22] <coz_> that draws the line
[05:22] <andreasn> no, I mean the icons for evince and file-roller and stuff
[05:22] <andreasn> and epy as well
[05:22] <andreasn> and some other apps
[05:22] <andreasn> well, whatever, I need to run now
[05:22] <andreasn> later!
[05:22] <coz_> ok I am getting general and you guys are a little more specific about this ok
[05:23] <andreasn> http://www.amazon.com/Humane-Interface-Directions-Designing-Interactive/dp/0201379376/sr=8-1/qid=1170433385/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-9766325-5571011?ie=UTF8&s=books
[05:23] <andreasn> raskins book
[05:29] <coz_> well I find that talking about things such as this is fine but I prefer action... howver I know not what action to take
[05:53] <troy_s> read raskins
[06:34] <troy_s> wtf
[06:34] <troy_s> where the feck is gnome.applet bindings in python
[07:45] <lizardking> hi
[07:59] <lizardking_> Hi
[08:00] <lizardking_> Whos is there?
[08:01] <lizardking_> troy_s: I ask my friends that is a lawyer
[08:01] <troy_s> and?
[08:02] <lizardking_> troy_s: He tell me that There would be andy problem because art-theming and drink/food are classificated are different sectors. The trademark is applied only in the in similar category (food drink etc)
[08:03] <troy_s> good luck defending that one though..
[08:03] <troy_s> :)
[08:04] <lizardking_> troy_s: However he tells me that btw the risk of getting in trouble is 0% if I change the name
[08:04] <troy_s> exactly :)
[08:04] <lizardking_> troy_s: Do you have any news from your wife?
[08:04] <troy_s> not yet
[08:05] <troy_s> but again, that is why you hire lawyers -- they fight it out
[08:05] <troy_s> ultimately, there is the possibility for trouble
[08:05] <troy_s> i would just avoid it :)
[08:06] <lizardking_> troy_s: I'm just thinking "which" name
[08:06] <lizardking_> troy_s: OranSun?
[08:06] <troy_s> OrangeSoda is pretty relevant no?
[08:06] <lizardking_> troy_s: Daniel tells me how to change the product in launchpad
[08:06] <lizardking_> troy_s: OrangeSoda is good but it is a TM too
[08:06] <troy_s> yes it is quite easy
[08:07] <troy_s> yes but completely unrelated to a colour scheme etc.
[08:09] <lizardking_> troy_s: not exactly. the logo is dark orange and the service provided is ONLINE marketing
[08:09] <troy_s> completely unrelated --
[08:09] <troy_s> the issue is the fact that you used oransoda and used that as the base for the colour scheme
[08:09] <troy_s> which _was_ related
[08:09] <troy_s> orangesoda is just a term
[08:09] <troy_s> it happens to also be a name
[08:09] <troy_s> but they are completely unreleated in terms of colour etc...
[08:10] <lizardking_> troy_s: So, also italian Oransoda drink is completly unrelated. I did not pick the color from the oransoda italian logo.
[08:10] <troy_s> but again, that would be a lawyer thing.
[08:10] <troy_s> Well the logo orange is close isn't it?
[08:10] <lizardking_> troy_s: I use darker tonality some times in my theme in the wallapaper :)
[08:10] <troy_s> ah.
[08:10] <troy_s> well then i guess it isn't an issue
[08:10] <troy_s> my logic was that OranSoda doesn't exist
[08:10] <troy_s> but OrangeSoda does
[08:11] <troy_s> Orange Soda is an actual thing
[08:11] <troy_s> whereas OranSoda can mean nothing but the soft drink in Italy.
[08:12] <troy_s> as in Orange Soda is a generic object
[08:12] <troy_s> OranSoda can be nothing but something akin to Pepsi
[09:29] <lizardking_> Hi
[09:29] <lizardking_> troy_s: we
[09:30] <troy_s> ?
[09:30] <lizardking_> troy_s: I made a survey for renaming my theme
[09:30] <lizardking_> troy_s: http://FreeOnlineSurveys.com/rendersurvey.asp?sid=9o1z70uepat89xd262494
[09:31] <troy_s> lol
[09:31] <lizardking_> troy_s: TangerinSoda
[09:32] <troy_s> gah
[09:32] <lizardking_> troy_s: eheh
[09:32] <lizardking_> troy_s: TangerSoda
[09:33] <lizardking_> AranSoda
[09:33] <lizardking_> Arancia is the orange fruit in italian
[09:33] <lizardking_> :D
[09:34] <troy_s> ALongWalkInARoundaboutWayToGetToTheFactThatThisIsAnOrangeLook
[09:34] <troy_s> ;)
[09:36] <lizardking_> troy_s: I'm a genious. OrunSoda
[09:36] <lizardking_> how did you spell it?
[09:36] <troy_s> ?
[09:36] <lizardking_> O run Soda
[09:36] <troy_s> Orange?
[09:36] <lizardking_> O run Soda -> oransoda
[09:37] <troy_s> What is an oran?
[09:37] <troy_s> or an orun for that matter?
[09:37] <troy_s> lol
[09:37] <lizardking_> troy_s: it is nothing
[09:37] <lizardking_> troy_s: Just the pronunce of orun is like oran
[09:37] <lizardking_> if you say running.. hihihi
[09:39] <lizardking_> troy_s: in spanish it's cool http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naranja_(fruto)
[09:39] <lizardking_> NaranSoda
[10:25] <msikma> I don't get it. a petition to name his theme without showing what it even looks like.
[11:43] <troy_s> wb darkmatter
[11:43] <darkmatter> afternoon troy_s