[05:46] <pochu> @schedule cet
[05:46] <Ubugtu> Schedule for CET: 05 Feb 21:00: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 13:00: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 11 Feb 23:00: LoCo Teams | 13 Feb 17:00: Forum Council | 13 Feb 21:00: Technical Board
[08:55] <gnomefreak> 5 minutes?
[08:59] <gnomefreak> is everyone close to ready?
[09:00] <crimsun> I'm in a phone conf atm, but I should be finished in a few mins
[09:00] <gnomefreak> ok we can wait
[09:01] <AlexLatchford> Howdy
[09:01] <gnomefreak> :)
[09:02] <AlexLatchford> ok let me fire up the minutes
[09:02] <gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: take your time Freddys not here and others are busy atm
[09:02] <AlexLatchford> aha ok, I need to neaten them up a little first
[09:05] <crimsun> ok, back. Apologies for the delay.
[09:06] <gnomefreak> crimsun: its ok.   doesnt ubuntu deal with licencing and firefox?
[09:07] <gnomefreak> k are we ready?
[09:08] <asac> ack for me
[09:08] <crimsun> ack
[09:08] <keescook> ack
[09:08] <heno> ack
[09:08] <heno> ... ducks
[09:08] <gnomefreak> What's happening about a Thunderbird debugging symbols package? This is needed urgently.
[09:09] <AlexLatchford> Can we go in order?
[09:09] <gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: skipping point 1 for now
[09:09] <AlexLatchford> wait, it is lol
[09:09] <asac> i was offering to produce some ... however I now got to know that we won't need it as they should be generated automagically
[09:09] <keescook> gnomefreak: the problem, as I understand it, is that security update builds don't get the dbgsyms packages published correctly.
[09:09] <gnomefreak> going over last meeting is not top proirity
[09:10] <keescook> it should exist for feisty, though, do they not?
[09:10] <gnomefreak> asac: apport is gonna do tb?
[09:10] <gnomefreak> pittis repo has debug package for tb in feisty only
[09:11] <keescook> gnomefreak: I think pitti is working on this already, I will check with him.
[09:11] <asac> keescook: good point ... however that is not an issue for us imo
[09:11] <asac> I can ask him
[09:11] <asac> I don't know though if this will be set up for edgy
[09:11] <AlexLatchford> it is for the new apport structure?
[09:11] <AlexLatchford> I am presuming yes
[09:11] <gnomefreak> not sure my tb doesnt crash :(
[09:11] <AlexLatchford> so we would need to produce an entriely new package for Edgy and Dapper
[09:11] <keescook> asac: okay, you're closer to pitti's timezone.  :)
[09:12] <gnomefreak> ok someone is gonna ping him?
[09:13] <asac> yes ... will ask him
[09:13] <gnomefreak> ty
[09:13] <gnomefreak> ok lets go to What will our team crash policy be? It may not coincide with BugSquad, however for our purposes, we have need to work around that. --Freddy
[09:13] <AlexLatchford> So asac to call pitti about tb debug package
[09:13] <gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: yep
[09:13] <pochu> @now
[09:13] <Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: February 05 2007, 20:13:44 - Current meeting: Mozilla Team
[09:13] <pochu> hi guys!
[09:13] <gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: have you heard from Freddy?
[09:14] <AlexLatchford> Howdy
[09:14] <AlexLatchford> erm, not recently
[09:14] <AlexLatchford> he said he would be here though didn't he?
[09:14] <asac> I think our main focus should be to sort out duplicates and bring crasher bugs in a shape that we can submit them upstream
[09:14] <AlexLatchford> I agree with asac
[09:14] <gnomefreak> agreed
[09:14] <keescook> I've done a bit of work on apport-retrace to make sure it gets a fuller retrace (plugin libraries, etc)
[09:14] <AlexLatchford> I don't like blindly disrgarding all the not reproducible crashes
[09:15] <gnomefreak> what do people think about https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-mozillateam/2007-January/000037.html
[09:15] <gnomefreak> i was asked about it
[09:15] <asac> keescook: whats the state of apport-retrace ... can we run apport-retrace locally already? e.g. without asking users to do so?
[09:16] <zakame> hi all
[09:16] <keescook> asac: yeah, you can sort of trick apport-retrace into rebuild a trace.  it's not at its final state (where it will download from launchpad directly)
[09:16] <keescook> hi zakame
[09:16] <keescook> basically, to do a retrace:
[09:16] <keescook> - download ProcMaps.txt, CoreDump.gz
[09:16] <asac> keescook: ah ... ok ... thats why it failed with me :)
[09:17] <zakame> hi keescook! ooh, mozilla team meeting...
[09:17] <gnomefreak> than run apport-retrace on them?
[09:17] <keescook> - gunzip CoreDump.gz
[09:17] <keescook> - apport -o /tmp/retraced.crash -r CoreDump -x /usr/lib/firefox/firefox-bin -m ProcMaps.txt -v -d -C /tmp/ddebs /dev/null
[09:18] <keescook> you'll need to have the same arch, version of program, plugins, etc installed to do this correctly
[09:18] <gnomefreak> there has go to be an easier way
[09:18] <keescook> gnomefreak: not yet.  but there will be eventually
[09:18] <gnomefreak> k
[09:18] <AlexLatchford> hmm, how big is the debugging symbols package?
[09:18] <asac> dunno ... quite big
[09:19] <AlexLatchford> could we not get it included by default?
[09:19] <gnomefreak> i suggest since we dont always get the best of info from  users we ask them to run the retrace
[09:19] <keescook> pitti is working on an automatically chroot'd retracing thing
[09:19] <asac> firefox-dbg Size: 50310432
[09:20] <gnomefreak> mozilla-thunderbird-dbgsym Size: 133966
[09:20] <AlexLatchford> from what I see there are alot of users who get a crash, report it and then get told to redo it, why not put a message in Apport that checks to see if the debugging package is installed and asks the user to install it if necessary?
[09:20] <AlexLatchford> couldn't that be done?
[09:21] <gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: it is
[09:21] <gnomefreak> the new apport sends all info to bugs for you
[09:21] <AlexLatchford> with debugging symbols?
[09:21] <gnomefreak> thats why you see 6 or so files (parts of crashreport)
[09:21] <asac> AlexLatchford: i hoped that we don't need that roundtrip, but could symbolized the report on our own
[09:21] <keescook> AlexLatchford: I'd agree, we should open a bug against apport-gtk for this feature.
[09:21] <gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: it has everything i believe
[09:22] <AlexLatchford> can I clarify, in feisty will apport get the debugging symbols somehow for you, with or without your permissions before uploading the reports?
[09:22] <keescook> asac: if it's a local crash, the apport-retrace command is much shorter.  :)  apport-retrace -o /tmp/retraced.crash -v -d -C /tmp/ddebs /var/crash/CRASH
[09:23] <keescook> AlexLatchford: presently apport-gtk does not do this.  I am unclear if pitti intends this to change before feisty releases.
[09:23] <AlexLatchford> it would make our lives a lot, and also I am sure there are other packages out there that could benefit from this kind of feature also
[09:24] <gnomefreak> not best example but https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/beryl-settings/+bug/83449
[09:24] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 83449 in beryl-settings "[apport]  beryl-settings crashed with UnboundLocalError in statePopup()" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] 
[09:24] <gnomefreak> there are around 5 or 6 parts not 3
[09:24] <keescook> AlexLatchford: I'd agree.
[09:24] <gnomefreak> but i dont think it skips debugging info
[09:24] <gnomefreak> or it would be useless
[09:25] <AlexLatchford> hmm ok
[09:25] <AlexLatchford> well asac can you contact pitti about this also, seeing as you can contacting him about the tb debugging symbols?
[09:25] <gnomefreak> this is gonna fit in with pinging pitti?
[09:25] <AlexLatchford> believe so
[09:26] <asac> so can we resymbolize reports send from a package without debug symbols or not?
[09:26] <asac> i can do that ... anyway, I need to know what to ask :)
[09:26] <keescook> asac: if a CoreDump is available, you can resymbolize the report after the fact, yes.  Without the core, no luck.  :)
[09:26] <AlexLatchford> no so we don't get any unsymbolized reports at all, apport should notice when the debugging symbols are not installed and request for them to be
[09:27] <AlexLatchford> before submitting the report
[09:27] <gnomefreak> keescook: i still havent seen that done. they say you can but never seena  command for it
[09:27] <gnomefreak> do we really want to download *everyones* crash reports?
[09:27] <keescook> gnomefreak: I just pasted the steps above.  :)  the final goal is to have Launchpad do the retracing automatically.
[09:27] <keescook> right now, we have to do it by hand
[09:27] <gnomefreak> keescook: oh its just the retrace
[09:28] <crimsun> I'd say it's feasible IFF a binary-only plugin/extension is /not/ involved
[09:28] <gnomefreak> we dont have that many plugins for ff
[09:28] <gnomefreak> or tb
[09:29] <crimsun> e.g., a disproportionate number are attributable to Adobe Flash
[09:29] <gnomefreak> although i keep being pinged to add some like colorzilla
[09:30] <gnomefreak> with the number of bugs that are sitting there and the 10 or so of us. its not smart to add more plugins, just incase anyone is watching that has either asked about them on bugs or in IRC
[09:31] <gnomefreak> ready to move forward?
[09:31] <AlexLatchford> hmm ok, so asac can you talk to pitti about the tb debugging symbols and about adding in debugging symbol auto detection system also?
[09:31] <AlexLatchford> (clarify the action needing to be taken)
[09:31] <gnomefreak> pinging is gonna turn into all day convo
[09:32] <AlexLatchford> not now, later
[09:32] <asac> yes I will try to figure out what the idea is and what can be done.
[09:32] <AlexLatchford> aha thanks
[09:32] <AlexLatchford> think we are now John
[09:32] <gnomefreak> ok david emailed about a stats report. see https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/beryl-settings/+bug/83449
[09:32] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 83449 in beryl-settings "[apport]  beryl-settings crashed with UnboundLocalError in statePopup()" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] 
[09:32] <asac> ok ... for procedure of processing crashers, can we agree to start to resymbolize crashers that contain core dumps on our own
[09:32] <gnomefreak> crap
[09:32] <asac> ?
[09:32] <gnomefreak> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-mozillateam/2007-January/000037.html
[09:32] <asac> and then try to find duplicates?
[09:33] <gnomefreak> asac: yes
[09:33] <AlexLatchford> onto Bug Stats
[09:33] <AlexLatchford> this is something that I think could be pretty cool, to track our progress
[09:33] <gnomefreak> i think it would be nice to have but how important is it?
[09:33] <gnomefreak> and im not shooting it down im asking how important to people is it?
[09:34] <asac> i have no opinion on that
[09:34] <gnomefreak> i say if someone has time to do it do it but other wise we have more pressing issues IMHO
[09:34] <AlexLatchford> It;s not something we need to waste time on, but a few emails wont hurt
[09:35] <bdmurray> I'm working on doing some general bug statistics on a per package basis.
[09:35] <gnomefreak> cool bdmurray :)
[09:35] <crimsun> I don't think it's really worthwhile for FF [it'd be akin to tracking stats for say, ubiquity] 
[09:35] <asac> we could establish something like a monthly/quarterly status announcement about the progress ... somewhere :)
[09:36] <Admiral_Chicago> sorry, math problem
[09:36] <AlexLatchford> well we have close to the number of bugs Ubiquity does
[09:36] <gnomefreak> ;)
[09:36] <AlexLatchford> I believe
[09:36] <gnomefreak> god i hope not
[09:36] <Admiral_Chicago> I though it was at 4. convered from UTC improperly
[09:36] <gnomefreak> ok moving on
[09:36] <gnomefreak> Admiral_Chicago: 20:00 UTC
[09:36] <gnomefreak> Can we remove the disclaimer yet?
[09:36] <gnomefreak> i say yes.
[09:36] <Admiral_Chicago> so do I
[09:37] <heno> anyone here tried using bughelper for triaging?
[09:37] <gnomefreak> k
[09:37] <gnomefreak> heno: cant i havent figured out how to write the clue yet
[09:37] <asac> has there been an approval?
[09:37] <heno> gnomefreak: heh, ok
[09:37] <gnomefreak> dont need one
[09:37] <AlexLatchford> I didn't think we needed offical approval
[09:37] <gnomefreak> heno: if you got time feel free to write it :)
[09:38] <Admiral_Chicago> we don't
[09:38] <asac> k
[09:38] <AlexLatchford> well ill remove it now then
[09:38] <gnomefreak> i have a feeling its gonna be a 3 year project for me
[09:38] <gnomefreak> or ill ping david see if he wants to write them
[09:38] <gnomefreak> Build up a relationship with the Mozilla, Adobe and any other teams we need to correspond with.
[09:39] <bdmurray> gnomefreak: I'd be happy to write them
[09:39] <gnomefreak> if you got time go for it :)
[09:39] <Admiral_Chicago> i'm sorry, I just got here, can someone fill me in on what we have done so far
[09:39] <bdmurray> I'd need to know what type of stuff you see frequently though.
[09:39] <gnomefreak> plguin crashes
[09:39] <gnomefreak> lol
[09:40] <gnomefreak> plugin
[09:40] <AlexLatchford> Freddy: believe we are on Working with other Teams
[09:40] <asac> I have some connection into the mozilla project ... and better ones to debian.
[09:40] <asac> though debian will be our upstream in future
[09:40] <gnomefreak> Admiral_Chicago: most so far is asac is gonna talk to pitti about debugging symbols/crashreports apport
[09:40] <Admiral_Chicago> okay let me pull up the meeting page, my network is being slow
[09:40] <Admiral_Chicago> gnomefreak: ty
[09:41] <gnomefreak> asac: will or will not?
[09:41] <asac> s/will be/will not be/
[09:41] <gnomefreak> ah :)
[09:41] <asac> :)
[09:41] <gnomefreak> ok before moving on. who here can read a backtrace good?
[09:41] <asac> however we still might tap there know-how by monitoring the patches they include
[09:41] <crimsun> whew
[09:41] <AlexLatchford> yes, do we have the change the thunderbird logo in future releases?
[09:41] <Admiral_Chicago> i can not
[09:42] <asac> thunderbird will become official too
[09:42] <AlexLatchford> I cannot read one and diagnose where the problem really lies, I can detect if the debugging symbols are not installed
[09:42] <asac> firefox will be repackaged
[09:42] <keescook> gnomefreak: I can understand them, but I am not very familiar with the mozilla codebases.
[09:42] <crimsun> I'm with keescook on the matter
[09:42] <asac> actually it will almost be the same, but the patches will be sorted out and need approval by mozilla corporation
[09:43] <gnomefreak> bdmurray: ill contact david about the bug helper clues
[09:43] <gnomefreak> find out what we need to use
[09:43] <gnomefreak> do we have any upstream adobe connections?
[09:43] <asac> i doubt it.
[09:43] <AlexLatchford> not that I know of
[09:43] <AlexLatchford> we have rhelmer from Mozilla
[09:44] <AlexLatchford> but none from Adobe
[09:44] <Admiral_Chicago> nope, iirc David had one
[09:44] <gnomefreak> well with flash crimsun and our motu team should be fine. since last time i checked flash doesnt give a damn about patching thier drivers
[09:45] <gnomefreak> if they did flash 7 would have fixed flash 7 issues
[09:45] <gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: your topic is next care to take it for a few i have phone call
[09:46] <gnomefreak> Contacts list. (Build up a list of people to contact about certain types of bugs). - Alex
[09:46] <AlexLatchford> Well my idea is to build up a contacts list, basically when you have a confirmed bug, you want to assign it to someone who is going to fix it for the next release
[09:46] <AlexLatchford> if its an Ubuntu bug that is
[09:47] <AlexLatchford> This list probably won't just be Mozilla Specific in the end, but say if there is a dependency error, who do you assign it to, to get it fixed?
[09:47] <AlexLatchford> I have no clue. There should be a list of people who you can assign problems to so they can fix them
[09:48] <Admiral_Chicago> well this gets to the idea of restructuring our wiki (/me has been busy so haven't got around to it)
[09:48] <AlexLatchford> yes
[09:48] <Admiral_Chicago> i'm going to structure them as A. Bug Reported, Bug Triagers, etc
[09:49] <AlexLatchford> I think that this list isn't something we as a team can do much about, we really need to push it up the pile a bit
[09:49] <gnomefreak> still on phone but im tempted to say let the person know. example i have a flash bug been confirmed i go to crimsun and say look i have this what do you what to do with it?
[09:50] <AlexLatchford> yeah the restructure is happening gradually, I have rewritten most of the documentation apart from the ones relating to bugs
[09:50] <AlexLatchford> yes gnomefreak, its sort of like a list of people, so if you have a flash bug you can assign it to crimsun to deal with later
[09:50] <AlexLatchford> but if you don't know who crimsun was who do you assign it to?
[09:51] <Admiral_Chicago> hopefully we don't come into that
[09:51] <crimsun> just a note, but we really should not just 'assign' like that
[09:51] <heno> assigning bugs to people can be tricky
[09:51] <Admiral_Chicago> I would like to see our team working to a point were we know who can handle what
[09:51] <heno> they may not appreciate that :)
[09:51] <crimsun> e.g., I much prefer to be subscribed to instead of assigned to
[09:52] <heno> perhaps using tags would be better ?
[09:52] <AlexLatchford> well thats a better way of dealing with it
[09:52] <heno> crimsun: ++
[09:52] <asac> i think first there should be a way to tag bugs so one can properly search for bugs by a topic (e.g. 'flash')
[09:52] <asac> is there something like that in malone?
[09:52] <AlexLatchford> hmm, yes
[09:52] <heno> asac: launchpad does have tags
[09:53] <gnomefreak> asigning people to a bug is bad because we dont know how backed up they are
[09:53] <AlexLatchford> thing is assigning a bug to someone forces them to deal with it
[09:53] <gnomefreak> we can tag them
[09:53] <heno> but their are a bit chaotically used
[09:53] <asac> yes ... better make it easier to find bugs of your preference
[09:53] <AlexLatchford> there are hundreds of confirmed bugs in the firefox list
[09:53] <asac> by categorizing them somehoww
[09:53] <AlexLatchford> but what actually happens to them?
[09:53] <Admiral_Chicago> and lots to close...
[09:53] <heno> the team could set up a tagging policy
[09:53] <AlexLatchford> Admiral_Chicago: agreed
[09:53] <gnomefreak> not this sec
[09:53] <heno> where each tag is defined in the wiki
[09:54] <asac> heno: agree
[09:54] <AlexLatchford> heno: yes that would make sense
[09:54] <Admiral_Chicago> a tag database that is used in house?
[09:54] <AlexLatchford> yes
[09:54] <heno> mt-tagname == MozillaTeam-tagname, e.g.
[09:55] <heno> Admiral_Chicago: what do you mean, database?
[09:55] <gnomefreak> what are the tags gonna do for us? just make it easier to find bugs?
[09:55] <asac> so who will set up the initial list
[09:55] <Admiral_Chicago> heno: a list of our tags that we all use
[09:55] <heno> gnomefreak: you can sort without having to assign
[09:55] <asac> i think the list of tags will evolve eventually ... for now it would be a good start to setup the most obvious tags
[09:55] <heno> less contentious
[09:56] <heno> Admiral_Chicago: right
[09:56] <AlexLatchford> well thing is that setting tags is useful, but how can we actually get bugs fixed?
[09:56] <asac> bugs are either fixed by upstream
[09:56] <Admiral_Chicago> is that what we agree to use, maintain a list of tags to use? I'm for it
[09:56] <asac> or they are fixed by anyone of the team ... e.g. me
[09:56] <AlexLatchford> +1 Admiral_Chicago
[09:56] <gnomefreak> yeah lets do it. can someone make a wiki about tagging how to when to and list of tags
[09:57] <AlexLatchford> asac: we cannot fix bugs, we can offer up patches, but we cannot upload I don't think?
[09:57] <Admiral_Chicago> in reality, most of these bugs are upstream bugs OR user errors
[09:57] <asac> AlexLatchford: I can :)
[09:57] <Admiral_Chicago> mostly the later
[09:57] <AlexLatchford> I will setup the initial tagging page
[09:57] <gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: sure we can
[09:57] <Admiral_Chicago> gnomefreak: will do it
[09:57] <gnomefreak> ty Admiral_Chicago
[09:57] <AlexLatchford> who is going to setup the tag list then?
[09:58] <Admiral_Chicago> AlexLatchford: we can start it on the mailing list
[09:58] <AlexLatchford> aha ok, Freddy can you start the ball rolling?
[09:58] <asac> just start and tag all flash issues
[09:58] <asac> :)
[09:58] <asac> maybe we can discuss on irc before a new tag is added
[09:58] <Admiral_Chicago> AlexLatchford: sure, I'll make a note on Knote and do it after I finish my reading for tonight
[09:58] <gnomefreak> +1 asac
[09:59] <AlexLatchford> +1 asac also
[09:59] <asac> and if you feel you need a tag, discuss it
[09:59] <asac> :)
[09:59] <Admiral_Chicago> asac: +1
[09:59] <asac> nothing formal ... i don't think it should be necessary to wait till we have an official meeting
[09:59] <AlexLatchford> ok so Freddy to start balling rolling on tagging list for bugs
[09:59] <asac> if people complain we can always make a more strict policy
[09:59] <AlexLatchford> agreed
[09:59] <gnomefreak> start with flash
[10:00] <AlexLatchford> yes
[10:00] <Admiral_Chicago> Flash is probably where most of our issues come from. rather, Flash 9
[10:00] <Admiral_Chicago> err 7
[10:00] <gnomefreak> Admiral_Chicago: i would agree if i can read the damn traces better
[10:00] <asac> one more important tag I would like to suggest right away is upstream-dupe
[10:00] <asac> actually often bugs are posted for which one is sure that there is a corresponding upstream bug
[10:01] <gnomefreak> +1 but that is a long week
[10:01] <AlexLatchford> ok, moving on I think?
[10:01] <heno> asac: you can also set an upstream tag linking to their BT
[10:01] <Admiral_Chicago> I don't ever use teh Mozilla Bug Tracker, I suppose I should start...
[10:01] <asac> but looking up right away is not possible either ... its too disruptive and one might not find it in bugzilla on the first glance
[10:01] <Admiral_Chicago> yes moving it along AlexLatchford
[10:01] <heno> accessibility?
[10:01] <AlexLatchford> indeed I believe
[10:01] <gnomefreak> heno: yep
[10:01] <asac> heno: yeah ... but a tag where i have not already found the url
[10:02] <asac> but am sure that one exists
[10:02] <heno> OK, let me do a little intro:
[10:02] <asac> actually upstream does this too ... they add the dupe keyword if they know that there is a duplicate, but cannot find it
[10:02] <gnomefreak> we really nee da wiki on how to read crash reports
[10:02] <asac> :)
[10:02] <heno> A great deal of effort over the past year has gone into making a better screen reader for Linux (Orca -- try it) There is a considerable number of blind people running Ubuntu with Orca already.
[10:02] <Admiral_Chicago> i can't write that, I hope someone else will gnomefreak
[10:02] <asac> gnomefreak: thats not that simple ... the basic is pretty clear
[10:02] <heno> For the next 6-12 months we will mostly be focusing on applications and Firefix is at the top of that list. It's important for obvious reasons (access to the web), but also non-trivial to get access right.
[10:02] <Admiral_Chicago> heno: it doesn't work on Feisty ATM
[10:03] <asac> but to derive real info can be pretty hard
[10:03] <heno> Admiral_Chicago: what, FF3?
[10:03] <heno> or Orca?
[10:03] <Admiral_Chicago> heno: Orca
[10:04] <heno> I sure there are intermittent bugs
[10:04] <heno> it's never really worked with Firefox though
[10:04] <heno> and that's the point
[10:04] <heno> until FF3 at least
[10:04] <heno> The Gnome/Orca people are working closely with Mozilla on this. That includes people from Sun and IBM. All the accessibility effort is going into Firefox 3 and TB 2. As the #1 accessibility distro we should be closely involved as well.
[10:04] <gnomefreak> we want orca to work with firefox?
[10:05] <Admiral_Chicago> of course
[10:05] <heno> gnomefreak: of course!
[10:05] <gnomefreak> :)
[10:05] <asac> heno: they go in TB 2?
[10:05] <asac> and not ff 2 ?
[10:05] <heno> asac: the a11y fixes, yes
[10:05] <heno> they are not focusing on ff2 for that
[10:05] <gnomefreak> asac: are they working on a ff2.5 or something?
[10:06] <heno> not that I know of
[10:06] <AlexLatchford> heno: so we need to test Orca with Firefox more?
[10:06] <asac> gnomefreak: not that i heard of
[10:06] <AlexLatchford> so we can iron out the bugs, or is there something specific we can do?
[10:06] <gnomefreak> k than i can see why only ff3
[10:06] <heno> AlexLatchford: for example yes, or just be awre of the issues
[10:07] <heno> we are likely to see bugs filed that seem od to the 'normal' user
[10:07] <heno> Firefox refuses to speak this page ...
[10:07] <gnomefreak> orca speaks?
[10:07] <Admiral_Chicago> good pount
[10:07] <AlexLatchford> aha ok, well maybe a wiki page explaining the more common accessibility issues?
[10:07] <AlexLatchford> ones that triagers may come across
[10:07] <gnomefreak> thought it was a magnifing glass type app
[10:07] <asac> maybe start tagging them accessible :)
[10:08] <Admiral_Chicago> can someone tell me what we decided on crash reports?
[10:08] <gnomefreak> +1 AlexLatchford and asac
[10:08] <heno> http://svn.gnome.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/orca/trunk/bugs/bugs.html#firefox for examples
[10:08] <Admiral_Chicago> +1 to accesibility
[10:08] <gnomefreak> Admiral_Chicago: asac is gonna talk to pitti for the most part (i woul dlike him to have something straight forward to ask)
[10:08] <heno> also see http://www.ubuntu.com/access
[10:09] <AlexLatchford> thanks alot heno
[10:09] <asac> i think we decided that I get details about apport support and we try to resymbolize where possible to see duplicates by backtrace
[10:09] <Admiral_Chicago> okay sounds good
[10:09] <heno> thanks for listening :)
[10:09] <asac> heno: sorry :-P
[10:09] <gnomefreak> if we get bughelper to work for us we will breezy through dupes
[10:09] <AlexLatchford> well we will have a chat about this on the mailing list, try to get up a wiki page outlining common issues for triagers to look out for and maybe setup an accessibility tag also
[10:10] <heno> asac: ?
[10:10] <gnomefreak> let me know whos doing wikis in the next few weeks please ther eare some things we need to get in there but it can wait
[10:10] <AlexLatchford> (hehe wiki pages solve all problems)
[10:11] <asac> heno: misread I guess ... nevermind
[10:11] <AlexLatchford> New membership policy up next?
[10:11] <gnomefreak> Freddy i suggest your point go before new mebershop
[10:11] <gnomefreak> membership
[10:11] <gnomefreak> New member education plan. I have some ideas, will discuss at the meeting. -- Freddy
[10:12] <Admiral_Chicago> kk
[10:12] <Admiral_Chicago> sorry was in the restroom
[10:12] <gnomefreak> asac: im gonna leave you with the sunbird one again :(
[10:12] <Admiral_Chicago> What I would like to see, before we start is getting new members to come in and interact with the team
[10:13] <gnomefreak> Admiral_Chicago: how so?
[10:13] <Admiral_Chicago> i don't like having bugs reports in my inbox that we have to retriage
[10:13] <gnomefreak> lol
[10:13] <AlexLatchford> agreed
[10:13] <Admiral_Chicago> gnomefreak: for one, we assign things to MozillaTeam not to ourselves
[10:13] <gnomefreak> your in the wrong feild than
[10:13] <Admiral_Chicago> hold on I wrote some notes on it...
[10:14] <gnomefreak> Admiral_Chicago: thats outside people using the bugsquads links
[10:15] <Admiral_Chicago> so heer is what I would like. First, get these new members in the IRC channel
[10:16] <Admiral_Chicago> One thing I like is when we are exchanges ideas on bug # X, we as a team can see how we communticate and deal with bugs
[10:16] <AlexLatchford> agreed
[10:17] <Admiral_Chicago> secondly, getting new members in the channel will introduce us to each other.
[10:17] <Admiral_Chicago> We are a team after all and need to know who is doing what and have a sense of unity.
[10:18] <Admiral_Chicago> The third part of that is I would like to show new members around stack traces
[10:18] <Admiral_Chicago> obviously, this will take some time because we need to brush up on this as well
[10:19] <AlexLatchford> yes, I think that the most daunting task for new triagers is definately crash reports
[10:20] <AlexLatchford> maybe a total rewrite of the GettingStarted wiki page is where to start with that?
[10:20] <Admiral_Chicago> yes, learning to read them, how to sort them, tell what is an extension, plugin etc
[10:20] <AlexLatchford> linking to in from the Membership page
[10:20] <Admiral_Chicago> have a link?
[10:20] <asac> yes, but there are lots of others which can be more easily triaged by finding its upstream bug for instance
[10:20] <AlexLatchford> Admiral_Chicago: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/GettingStarted
[10:20] <AlexLatchford> Outlines a few dos and donts
[10:20] <Admiral_Chicago> thanks AlexLatchford
[10:21] <AlexLatchford> but nothing really much like actually getting started
[10:21] <Admiral_Chicago> ideally, we could have a mentor type thing, before they are accepted on the team
[10:21] <gnomefreak> how about before someone can become a member (if they are not experenced with bugs or mozilla bugs they meet us in IRC and they can ask us what to do so they learn?
[10:22] <Admiral_Chicago> gnomefreak: ^^
[10:22] <gnomefreak> how many of our members have QA access other than me and asac
[10:22] <gnomefreak> oh and crimsun
[10:22] <Admiral_Chicago> I've done this with the Chicago LoCo, teaching to triage
[10:22] <Admiral_Chicago> not I, I would have applied the last HugDay but I was busy
[10:23] <asac> ok ... so we encourage new members to first start bug-triaging ... and offer to help them here on irc ?
[10:23] <gnomefreak> yes unless ofcourse they are an easy pick
[10:23] <Admiral_Chicago> like crimsun :)
[10:23] <asac> s/new members/new contributors/
[10:24] <gnomefreak> i have 2 people that applied with like 0 karma and no other teams so im kind of reluctant to accept them atm
[10:24] <asac> ask them to contribute ... can anyone tag bugs?
[10:24] <AlexLatchford> yes asac
[10:24] <Admiral_Chicago> I would like our team to be open where if someone wants to help, they find a place. i have not seen that in some other teams.
[10:24] <asac> if so maybe they want to help going through the list?
[10:24] <gnomefreak> once the wiki is up sure any one can
[10:24] <asac> and tag them ;)
[10:24] <AlexLatchford> in the left side menu when you are on a bug page
[10:24] <Admiral_Chicago> gnomefreak: in that case, we email them and ask them to come and meet with us.
[10:25] <gnomefreak> Admiral_Chicago: i will
[10:25] <gnomefreak> sometime this week
[10:25] <Admiral_Chicago> we show them around and if they do good work, at the next meeting (or whenever), we can vote on them
[10:25] <Admiral_Chicago> per david's suggestion
[10:25] <gnomefreak> w ewill go through that i think. he did fairly good on that iirc
[10:26] <Admiral_Chicago> he == ?
[10:26] <gnomefreak> ok with the new members and the tags can we write up a quick wiki on that mainly an outline and when we get to it we will add tags ect...
[10:26] <gnomefreak> he == david
[10:27] <gnomefreak> its the final agenda pint
[10:27] <Admiral_Chicago> gnomefreak: i will do that after dinner.
[10:27] <gnomefreak> Admiral_Chicago: doesnt have to be today
[10:27] <Admiral_Chicago> gnomefreak: well i have everything open in Knotes, I'll do it sooner rather than later
[10:28] <AlexLatchford> yeah. (I have added the wiki suggestion to the Todo page)
[10:28] <asac> ok ... we are done with membership/education?
[10:28] <AlexLatchford> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Todo
[10:28] <gnomefreak> ty AlexLatchford
[10:28] <Admiral_Chicago> i'm done
[10:28] <gnomefreak> asac: yes its your turn with pochu and the sunbird thing i asked you about during the patching
[10:29] <gnomefreak> pochu: ok your up
[10:29] <asac> yes ... i think in general it would not be a wise idea to package sunbird atm
[10:29] <pochu> hey :)
[10:29] <pochu> well, there is somebody who wants to see sunbird in the repos
[10:29] <pochu> debian has it
[10:29] <AlexLatchford> what release status is Sunbird at?
[10:29] <asac> last time i looked it was not released from stable mozilla branches
[10:29] <pochu> 0.3
[10:29] <asac> and authors refused to do so
[10:29] <pochu> 0.5 in a little time
[10:29] <asac> upon request
[10:30] <AlexLatchford> hmm and its not stable?
[10:30] <asac>  ... but releasing from trunk makes serious stability/security nearly impossible
[10:30] <gnomefreak> pochu: we cant add anything to our repos that doesnt have a stable release date
[10:30] <Admiral_Chicago> 0.3 atm
[10:30] <pochu> I don't know what you want to say with stable, asac
[10:30] <asac> it might be stable ... but upstream does not release under a stable branch policy
[10:30] <pochu> gnomefreak: I use it and it's stable ;)
[10:30] <pochu> asac: oh, ok
[10:30] <pochu> then we can wait
[10:30] <gnomefreak> pochu: what works for you doesnt mean it works for others
[10:30] <Admiral_Chicago> stable on your system perhaps
[10:31] <pochu> gnomefreak: of course :)
[10:31] <pochu> maybe for feisty +1?
[10:31] <AlexLatchford> I believe that Sunbird should be packaged for Ubuntu, but not for Feisty, maybe Feisty+1 if its ready
[10:31] <asac> its not stable in terms on what you want in the release
[10:31] <gnomefreak> pochu: lets see what mozilla does first
[10:31] <pochu> gnomefreak: I'll mail the main dev, if you want
[10:31] <gnomefreak> pochu: i suggest pushing upstream to releasse stable
[10:31] <pochu> just to ask their plans
[10:31] <asac> pochu: join #calendar
[10:32] <asac> on irc.mozilla.org
[10:32] <gnomefreak> pochu: but they are a bit more conerned about other things
[10:32] <asac> i talked to some
[10:32] <heno> Chandler will be out in preview form in April, which might steal a lot of Sunbird's thunder
[10:32] <asac> if they have changed there mind .e.g. rlease from MOZILLA_1_8_BRANCH, then it might make sense
[10:32] <heno> just sayi'n ...
[10:33] <pochu> well, it's ok
[10:33] <pochu> let's wait
[10:33] <pochu> I'll talk the devs to see what are the plans, and I'll say you
[10:33] <asac> great
[10:33] <pochu> thanks guys :)
[10:33] <AlexLatchford> sounds good to me
[10:34] <AlexLatchford> I would like to see Sunbird in Ubuntu someday, but as a stable release so we don't get silly amounts of bug reports
[10:34] <Admiral_Chicago> yup, we have enough work as it is
[10:35] <gnomefreak> ok david prettty much goes in deeper to the same things we talked about today at https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-mozillateam/2007-January/000041.html  would like some opinions on it and comments
[10:35] <gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: lets get flash and ff under control before adding that much more work :)
[10:35] <AlexLatchford> lol yes
[10:35] <pochu> sounds reasonably
[10:36] <Admiral_Chicago> is that it?
[10:36] <gnomefreak> oh hey tag == depends (if a dependency issue is found)
[10:36] <AlexLatchford> yes, I agree with Davids comments on point 1.
[10:37] <Admiral_Chicago> hmm, okay we can do that
[10:37] <gnomefreak> Now Martin Pitt and the launchpad team are working on a way
[10:37] <gnomefreak> of dealing with the crash reports
[10:37] <gnomefreak> does that mean he is working with martin?
[10:37] <AlexLatchford> believe so
[10:37] <asac> i will know more tomorrow
[10:37] <gnomefreak> or should we ask asac to still ping him? i havent seen david in a while
[10:37] <AlexLatchford> me neither
[10:38] <asac> i will definitly ask :) no matter what ;)
[10:38] <Admiral_Chicago> he's been busy.
[10:38] <gnomefreak> oh my god
[10:38] <AlexLatchford> I also agree on Davids point 3 about getting a singular version of flash to work flawlessly
[10:38] <gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: i was just oh my godding about that
[10:38] <gnomefreak> who here can write thier own flash app? to read flash movies
[10:38] <asac> yes ... lets first sort them out and create symbolize patches ... then look what we can see.
[10:39] <AlexLatchford> at the moment there are about 4 versions of the flash plugin (not gnash, just flash itself), we need to cut this down to just 1
[10:39] <asac> who maintains those?
[10:39] <Admiral_Chicago> true, but iirc, that is for different version
[10:40] <gnomefreak> asac: i dont think anyone really does
[10:40] <AlexLatchford> well how many flash versions do you need?
[10:40] <AlexLatchford> there is Flash 9, thats all there should be
[10:40] <AlexLatchford> then the alternatives, gnash etc..
[10:40] <gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: breezy is still supported i think and we cant port flash9 for breezy
[10:41] <gnomefreak> gnash works like shit
[10:41] <Admiral_Chicago> yup, issues like that are the reason we have so many
[10:41] <gnomefreak> a flash for each arch would do
[10:41] <Admiral_Chicago> i just mark everything flashplugin-nonfee
[10:41] <Admiral_Chicago> free
[10:41] <AlexLatchford> +1 on gnomefreak
[10:41] <gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: you offering to build them?
[10:42] <AlexLatchford> lol no
[10:42] <gnomefreak> ok if someone can talk to david about it maybe his connection at adobe can help but reemmber they are nonfree
[10:42] <AlexLatchford> yes
[10:42] <Admiral_Chicago> i'm mailing him now
[10:43] <Admiral_Chicago> literally, I was emailing him
[10:43] <gnomefreak> ok good wait to send it until we are done with him?
[10:43] <Admiral_Chicago> yup
[10:43] <gnomefreak> 4.  Wiki We need to recruit a writer to help us sort that mess out;)
[10:43] <AlexLatchford> Well I have started on that
[10:44] <AlexLatchford> I haven't got too far though
[10:44] <gnomefreak> ok cool
[10:44] <AlexLatchford> I have cleaned up a few pages, but I need to improve my actual knowledge a little more beofre tackling the others
[10:44] <Admiral_Chicago> i'm supposed to be doing that aswell
[10:44] <AlexLatchford> yeah, If you want to jump in thats cool
[10:44] <Admiral_Chicago> i have knowledge about wiki formating
[10:45] <gnomefreak> guys get outlines going to start with we can work out details later
[10:45] <gnomefreak> speaking of docs team members
[10:45] <gnomefreak> :)
[10:45] <Admiral_Chicago> haha
[10:45] <AlexLatchford> *rolls eyes*
[10:45] <gnomefreak> Admiral_Chicago: are you ML admin?
[10:45] <Admiral_Chicago> gnomefreak: no
[10:45] <gnomefreak> just david?
[10:46] <Admiral_Chicago> i think so, are you looking to admin / one of us?
[10:46] <gnomefreak> i would like a whatchacallit
[10:46] <Admiral_Chicago> I'm admin on ML for Chicago LoCo only.
[10:46] <Admiral_Chicago> ?
[10:46] <gnomefreak> moderator along with admin
[10:46] <gnomefreak> add that to your email to him please
[10:47] <Admiral_Chicago> doing that now
[10:47] <AlexLatchford> want to move back to -mozillateam?
[10:47] <asac> ok done?
[10:47] <gnomefreak> if peopel want to talk about the membership council now or i can send it to ML
[10:48] <Admiral_Chicago> gnomefreak: we can do that in mozillateam
[10:48] <AlexLatchford> Well are we going to set one up?
[10:48] <Admiral_Chicago> AlexLatchford: yes
[10:48] <AlexLatchford> in mozillateam I think
[10:48] <gnomefreak> k
[10:48] <gnomefreak> meeting adjourned?
[10:48] <gnomefreak> maybe spelled right
[10:48] <Admiral_Chicago> yup
[10:49] <Admiral_Chicago> err I say so
[10:49] <Admiral_Chicago> to the meeting adjournment
[10:49] <AlexLatchford> yep, I will get the minutes up later
[10:49] <gnomefreak> ok good i have to get a few things done real fast i have a few questions that can be done in our channel whenever
[11:33] <pochu> @now
[11:33] <Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: February 05 2007, 22:33:27 - Next meeting: Edubuntu in 1 day