[04:01] <mpt> Gooooooooood afternoon Launchpadders!
[04:06] <Hobbsee> afternoon mpt!!!
[04:08] <ajmitch> hi mpt
[04:10] <LaserJock> hi mpt
[04:12] <mpt> hello hello hello
[04:12] <mpt> oh, Hobbsee, I owe you an e-mail message
[04:12] <Hobbsee> mpt: you do?  fun :)
[04:59] <Burgundavia> kiko: can I get into the test of the new UI?
[08:45] <carlos> morning
[11:17] <gnomefreak> is it me or does karma seem to drop 200+ points no matter how many bugs/comments you do/make?
[11:25] <ajmitch> nope
[11:25] <ajmitch> my karma is still going up
[11:27] <gnomefreak> i made 20+ comments/uploads hell 10 to one bug and mine dropped 200+ points
[11:28] <ajmitch> ewll, 'a few' being 40+
[11:35] <carlos> gnomefreak: it would be that you did a lot of work a year ago
[11:35] <carlos> so the amount expired is higher than the amount earned 
[11:36] <gnomefreak> carlos: couldnt have been i wasnt a triager a year ago i didnt start until around may/june
[11:37] <gnomefreak> april == earliest
[11:37] <carlos> hmm, no idea then. Not all actions give you the same amount of karma
[11:38] <carlos> when did you last check your karma?
[11:38] <gnomefreak> a little while ago
[11:38] <carlos> we recently dropped a lot of karma 
[11:38] <gnomefreak> carlos: i already emailed stub about that
[11:38] <carlos> due a bug we had in launchpad that was given much more karma than it should
[11:38] <carlos> ok
[11:38] <gnomefreak> it has been dropping ever since that
[11:38] <gnomefreak> doesnt matter what i ddo on LP
[11:39] <carlos> it decreases over time, but if you keep doing things, it shouldn't affect you so much
[11:39] <carlos> gnomefreak: you will need to wait for stub's answer
[11:39] <gnomefreak> it dropped almost/if not exactly 200 points over night
[11:40] <ajmitch> you probably just have to work harder :)
[11:40] <gnomefreak> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/19552
[11:40] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 19552 in firefox "Crash after firefox is opening a new window (when it should open the new URL in the same window/tab) - No More Crash Report Please!" [High,Needs info]   - Assigned to Mozilla Team (mozillateam)
[11:40] <gnomefreak> read that than tell me how much harder lol
[11:41] <gnomefreak> i spent better part of day with that bug
[11:41] <ajmitch> sure, but karma can't measure how hard a bug is :)
[11:42] <gnomefreak> i know but your talking around 10 uploads/comments just on that bug
[11:42] <gnomefreak> not including the other bugs i did
[11:43] <gnomefreak> ever since the karma dropped from 1.3 mill to 10049 it has been on a steady decline
[11:45] <Ubugtu> New bug: #84167 in rosetta "Please do not export new languages after distro release for langpack-o-matic" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/84167
[11:47] <ByronFortescue> Hello there,
[11:47] <ddaa> hello
[11:48] <ByronFortescue> I am subscribed to the Ubuntu Artwork Launchpad, but I get a lot of e-mails on subjects and posts I am not really interested by, I only want to get email about posts I posted in myself, is there any way to get this done? 
[11:49] <ByronFortescue> And if not, how can i deactivate the subscription to all these messages?
[11:51] <stub> https://help.launchpad.net/KarmaAdjustmentsJan07 and https://help.launchpad.net/KarmaCalculation should explain everything
[11:51] <ddaa> ByronFortescue: what's the page of this Ubuntu Artwork team?
[11:52] <ddaa> ByronFortescue: is that it https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art +
[11:52] <ddaa> s/+/?/
[11:53] <ddaa> ByronFortescue: I do not have all the elements
[11:53] <ddaa> like, you are not telling me what kind of mail you are receiving, etc.
[11:53] <ByronFortescue> ddaa: yes its that one
[11:54] <ByronFortescue> allright, well, I just got myself an account there, I posted in one thread, and the next thing, I get all these e-mails about other topics..
[11:54] <ddaa> ByronFortescue: so I guess you actually want to get some permissions associated with being a member of this team, but you do not want to receive any of the email sent to that team?
[11:54] <ddaa> ByronFortescue: this is NOT a forum, and NOT a mailing list
[11:55] <ddaa> this is a team
[11:55] <ddaa> it gives permission to do things in launchpad
[11:55] <ByronFortescue> ddaa: allright, clears it a bit up, thank you.. ^_^
[11:55] <ddaa> ByronFortescue: so what you are saying is not helping me understand what is your problem
[11:57] <ByronFortescue> ddaa: Well, I was just wondering if there was a way to just get e-mail about posts I am subscribed to instead of all the posts
[11:57] <ddaa> what post are you talking about?
[11:57] <ddaa> You do not post to a team!
[11:58] <ddaa> Show me one of those "posts"
[11:59] <ByronFortescue> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/human-cursors-theme/+bug/83886
[11:59] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 83886 in human-cursors-theme "whishlist: new release" [Undecided,Confirmed]   - Assigned to Ubuntu Artwork Team (ubuntu-art)
[11:59] <ByronFortescue> It's more like bug posting and responding to it.. 
[12:00] <ddaa> okay, let me have a look
[12:00] <ddaa> so this i a bug
[12:01] <ddaa> this bug is assigned to "ubuntu artwork team"
[12:01] <ByronFortescue> yes
[12:01] <ddaa> all comments to a bug cause an email to be sent to subscribers AND the assignee
[12:02] <ddaa> the assignee is an "implicit subscriber"
[12:02] <ddaa> makes sense so far?
[12:02] <ByronFortescue> yes
[12:02] <ddaa> ByronFortescue: why do you need to be part of this team?
[12:03] <ddaa> Honest question, is there any technical reason you need to be part of team?
[12:03] <ByronFortescue> ddaa: It was just out of mere interest I joined it, to see if I could help a hand here and there
[12:03] <ddaa> ByronFortescue: so, if you leave the team, you will still be able to do anything you want to do?
[12:03] <ByronFortescue> So I understand that if I want to get rid of the subscription, I have to get out of this team
[12:04] <ddaa> ByronFortescue: right, I do not know the purpose of this team. To me, it looks like its main purpose is to broadcast emails.
[12:04] <ByronFortescue> ddaa: no, but I understand I cannot edit these preferences myself
[12:04] <ddaa> What "preferences" are you thinking of?
[12:05] <ByronFortescue> well, which bugs I get e-mailed to me..
[12:05] <Ubugtu> New bug: #84170 in launchpad "Karma calculation is buggy" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/84170
[12:05] <ddaa> ByronFortescue: you will be emailed about all bugs that are assigned to this team.
[12:05] <ddaa> It looks to me like it is the whole point of this team.
[12:05] <ByronFortescue> yes, I understand
[12:06] <ByronFortescue> I did not quite get that at first, so there's where the misconception is prolly ^_^
[12:06] <ddaa> ByronFortescue: if membership of this team is used for something else
[12:06] <ddaa> you can ask an administrator of the team to set a "contact address" for the team.
[12:06] <ByronFortescue> no it's not
[12:06] <ByronFortescue> ok
[12:06] <ByronFortescue> thank you for your help and time ddaa
[12:06] <ddaa> such as a mailing list
[12:07] <ddaa> ByronFortescue: you are welcome, sorry for losing a bit of my temper earlier.
[12:07] <ByronFortescue> ddaa: It's allright, I understand it can seem a bit of a silly question from your point of view :)
[12:07] <ByronFortescue> bye bye!
[12:07] <ddaa> ByronFortescue: I guess maybe you should suggest
[12:08] <ddaa> to an admin of the team to explain this in the team decription.
[12:08] <ByronFortescue> ddaa: yeah good idea.. 
[12:08] <ByronFortescue> allright, i'll be on my way then
[12:08] <ByronFortescue> sayonara
[12:08] <ddaa> Thank you
[12:12] <ddaa> we really need more transparency in bug email
[12:13] <Fujitsu> ddaa: Most certainly.
[12:14] <ddaa> something that says "You received this email because you are a member of team Ubuntu Artwork. This team is the assignee of this bug. To stop receiving such email, you can leave the Ubuntu Artwork team."
[12:14] <ddaa> BjornT: I take it there's already a couple dozen duplicate bugs filed about this?
[12:18] <BjornT> ddaa: there are a few bugs about this, yes. the first step will be to at least give some way of finding out why you got an e-mail, for example using the To header, or a custom header. but something more obvious will probably be added later.
[12:19] <ddaa> BjornT: any chance this could be acted upon, like... in the next month?
[12:19] <ddaa> I know this has been in the plans for like a year.
[12:20] <ddaa> I do not want to see myself losing my temper again on an unsuspecting user...
[12:20] <BjornT> ddaa: the first step, yes. i'll probably do that one as a FiF.
[12:21] <Fujitsu> ddaa: I can see why you did, though.
[12:21] <BjornT> as for the second step, i'm not sure when i'll get around to it.
[12:21] <ddaa> Fujitsu: no excuse, this guy was just clueless, and subscribed to the team because he thought he wanted to help.
[12:22] <ddaa> he was not even being silly or having an attitude, just confused and making too many assumptions
[12:22] <Fujitsu> I suppose so.
[12:23] <ddaa> BjornT: you know we've got the Mailman guy in, maybe you could use him for that :)
[12:23] <ddaa> I think that's like smack in the middle of what he's here for.
[12:25] <BjornT> ddaa: yeah, the second step is basically transforming the structured headers into unstructured text, so it shouldn't be that hard :) the main problem is not to bloat the notifications too much.
[12:25] <ddaa> Yep, I see how that can be tricky. But that's the sort of thing where barry may have useful insights.
[12:26] <BjornT> although, when you join a team, you should probably be given the option whether to receive mail. that's where mailman could be useful.
[12:27] <ddaa> BjornT: dunno... for some teams, receiving emails is the whole point of the team.
[12:27] <Fujitsu> BjornT: Having such an option would be really nice.
[12:27] <ddaa> But I guess maybe we should separate the "I'm a part of the Team, yeah!", from "I'm actually giving a shit"...
[12:29] <stub> barry will need to get his hands dirty in the email system at some point, as we need a bounce processor and the simplest way for us to do that is to poach the relevant code from mailman (license permitting)
[12:29] <ddaa> in other words... belonging to a team seem to give some users a warm feeling, and maybe that should be separated from the email traffic.
[12:29] <ddaa> stub: Mailman is GPL, right?
[12:29] <stub> I think so, yes.
[12:30] <ddaa> GPL covers only distribution. Launchpad is not being distributed (yet?)...
[12:30] <ddaa> mh...
[12:30] <stub> Although as the bounce processor will be a separate system, license is probably irrelevant.
[12:30] <ddaa> okay I see the problem.
[12:32] <ddaa> BjornT: I think we need more _and_ less than just transliterating the headers.
[12:32] <ddaa> Fujitsu: it's not a workaround. The implication of the GPL to web services is a well discussed subject.
[12:33] <ddaa> there was actually leaked early draft of the GPLv3 that had some clauses to consider web serving as distribution.
[12:34] <Fujitsu> I see an article from late 2005 mentioning such a thing.
[12:35] <ddaa> The fact that it was withdrawn is an implicit acknowledgment that private software, such as web services, is outside the bounds of the GPL.
[12:36] <ddaa> I'm pretty sure that Eben Moglen would phrase that in a much more eloquent way, he being Eben Moglen, but he'll basically agree.
[12:36] <jamesh> ddaa: there is an optional clause where GPLv3 code can provide a "method of downloading the source to this program" that can't be removed
[12:37] <ddaa> *nod* I can see how they put that in to make some stakeholders happy
[12:37] <ddaa> but I wish they would cut down the number of optional clauses to a minimum. Simplicity is the biggest advantage of the GPL.
[12:38] <jamesh> there are a bunch of optional extras in the GPLv3
[12:38] <stub> Heh.... simplicity is the reason I use MIT :)
[12:38] <jamesh> the LGPL essentially becomes an additional permission to GPLv3, rather than its own license
[12:38] <jamesh> which simplifies things a bit
[12:39] <ddaa> jamesh: I think optional extras are going to be a problem.
[12:39] <jamesh> ddaa: the base license was fairly strict about what sort of extras were allowed, last I checked
[12:39] <ddaa> stub: MIT is not copyleft. Copyleft is very healthy economically.
[12:39] <Fujitsu> GPL options... Sounds nasty.
[12:40] <jamesh> ddaa: the GPLv2 has similar options
[12:40] <ddaa> Fujitsu: do not worry, there's no "chromed RMS statuette" option that I know of.
[12:40] <jamesh> for example, if you have an interactive GPL'd program with a "warranty" or "license" command, you can't patch those out and distribute the result
[12:40] <Fujitsu> Hahah.
[12:41] <Fujitsu> jamesh: True.
[12:41] <jamesh> (there is nothing requiring interactive programs to have those style of commands though)
[12:42] <ddaa> jamesh: I think this sort of option is okay, as those commands can be normally hidden, and the license or warranty cannot be changed anyway.
[12:42] <ddaa> so it's not really changing the terms of distribution in any practical way, except for forcing the presence of a few KB of text.
[12:43] <ddaa> s/terms of distribution/terms of use/
[12:50] <Ubugtu> New bug: #84168 in linux-meta (main) "Inapplicable security update (linux-2.6.17-11 in edgy) (dup-of: 83976)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/84168
[12:51] <Ubugtu> New bug: #84174 in linux-meta (main) "last linux-image-generic package is broken (dup-of: 83976)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/84174
[01:20] <Ubugtu> New bug: #68201 in gnome-orca "No translations for gnome-orca" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/68201
[01:34] <ddaa> matsubara: hey
[01:34] <ddaa> you know you can _change_ the product of a bug report
[01:35] <Ubugtu> New bug: #84016 in linux-source-2.6.17 (main) "Unmet dependency in metapackage linux-image-generic (dup-of: 83976)" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/84016
[01:35] <Ubugtu> New bug: #84035 in Ubuntu "cannot upgrade kernel (dup-of: 83976)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/84035
[01:35] <Ubugtu> New bug: #84182 in linux-source-2.6.15 (main) "k7 kernel update - broken dependency (dup-of: 83976)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/84182
[01:35] <matsubara> ddaa: yes, why?
[01:36] <ddaa> so for bugs like bug 84071, you need not reject on launchpad and open on ubuntu/gaim
[01:36] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 84071 in gaim "Crash while drag the scroll bar" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/84071
[01:36] <ddaa> so we need not get bugspam about random problem that people first reported on launchpad
[01:36] <ddaa> or maybe you are doing it intentionally, for some reason that escapes me...
[01:38] <ddaa> I'd still like to be able to delete bug reports, so this sort of thing can be fixed post hoc...
[01:38] <matsubara> ddaa: yes I did intentionally so the bugsquad can take a look at it and investigate further. If they discover it's a problem on gaim upstream they'll do the right thing
[01:38] <ddaa> matsubara: okay, but why keep the "launchpad" bug report?
[01:39] <Fujitsu> ddaa: You can't assign a product task to a distro package, AFAIK..
[01:39] <ddaa> duh
[01:39] <ddaa> BUG
[01:39] <Fujitsu> ?
[01:39] <ddaa> I consider this a bug, and I'm going to file it
[01:40] <Fujitsu> Sounds like a good idea.
[01:40] <matsubara> already reported ddaa 
[01:40] <salgado> ddaa, I think it's already filed
[01:40] <ddaa> I'll just make a dupe to annoy the malone guys into fixing it
[01:41] <matsubara> ddaa: there's no reason to keep the launchpad report. since gaim doesn't use malone officially I didn't even try to re-assign from launchpad product to gaim product.
[01:41] <ddaa> matsubara: sure, but we cannot get rid of it
[01:42] <matsubara> ddaa: just re-assigned
[01:42] <matsubara> I thought it wouldn't let me.
[01:42] <ddaa> weird
[01:42] <matsubara> I'll do that from now on. thansk for the tip
[01:43] <ddaa> I guess maybe you should not be allowed to...
[01:43] <ddaa> BjornT: hey
[01:43] <Fujitsu> ddaa: Why not?
[01:43] <ddaa> Fujitsu: because you cannot file bugs on a product that does not use Malone officially
[01:43] <ddaa> the only thing you should be allowed to do is set a bugwatch to the official bugtracker, as I understand it
[01:43] <Fujitsu> It is useful to track the status in Malone anyway.
[01:44] <ddaa> that's what a bugwatch is for
[01:44] <Fujitsu> (as the number of bugtrackers supported by a bugwatch is limited)
[01:44] <BjornT> hi ddaa 
[01:44] <Fujitsu> And some upstreams don't even have a bugtracker.
[01:44] <ddaa> BjornT: people are not allowed to file bugs on products that do not have the use-malone flag set
[01:45] <ddaa> BjornT: but it's possible to move a bug report (bugtask) from another product to a product that does not have the use-malone flag set
[01:45] <ddaa> BjornT: is this a bug?
[01:45] <Fujitsu> If that behaviour is changed, it will make life harder for a lot of people.
[01:46] <BjornT> ddaa: yeah, that's a bug, it has even been filed.
[01:46] <Fujitsu> Having to manually track the status of a bug just because LP doesn't support the bugtracker, or there is no bugtracker, is just stupid.
[01:47] <ddaa> https://bugs.launchpad.net/gaim/+bugs
[01:48] <ddaa> bah...
[01:48] <ddaa> matsubara: okay, let's just have it as you said
[01:52] <BjornT> ddaa: those gaim bugs are ok, since they have an ubuntu task as well. if there's only one bugtask, it shouldn't be possible to reassign it to a product that doesn't use Launchpad to track their bugs, though.
[01:53] <ddaa> mkay, makes some sense
[01:53] <ddaa> the point is not to have bugs that nobody is looking after
[02:12] <not-kiko> oi
[02:12] <not-kiko> SteveA: you called?
[02:12] <not-kiko> cprov: hey. 
[02:12] <ddaa> not-kiko: what's up with your nicknames anyway?
[02:12] <cprov> not-kiko: hey
[02:13] <cprov> not-kiko: no good news for me ?
[02:13] <not-kiko> cprov: I should be the one asking for good news!!!
[02:14] <not-kiko> cprov: is mdz around?
[02:14] <cprov> not-kiko: then, I guess, better comments don't represent any.
[02:15] <cprov> not-kiko: probably yes, pitti and cjwatson also are in #soyuz
[02:16] <Ubugtu> New bug: #84187 in adept (main) "Adept Update Manager fails to install 2.6.17-11 (dup-of: 83976)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/84187
[02:27] <not-kiko> I doubt mdz is around actually
[02:55] <Ubugtu> New bug: #84160 in update-manager (main) "Updates that cannot be ticked are displayed (dup-of: 83976)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/84160
[03:55] <Ubugtu> New bug: #84210 in launchpad "Naming Consistencies in sections." [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/84210
[04:36] <Ubugtu> New bug: #84203 in linux-meta (main) "Depends: linux-image-2.6.17-11-386 but it is not installable (dup-of: 83976)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/84203
[07:51] <Burgwork> kiko: did you get my ping from yesterday?
[07:53] <kiko> Burgwork, yes. please apply to https://launchpad.net/~launchpad-beta-testers/
[07:54] <Burgwork> kiko: will do
[08:01] <jamesh> you aren't trying to join so you'll have something to post on your weblog, right?
[08:37] <rainglasz> When in a translation screen, i very often have to scroll horizontally (unless the messages are very short). Is this regarded normal? (Firefox 2, 1024x768) For me, its nagging. 
[08:42] <not-kiko> rainglasz: it shouldn't be the case. can you ping us about it next week, when carlos, danilos and jamesh will be on a sprint?
[08:44] <rainglasz> ok
[08:50] <not-kiko> yay! jamesh!
[12:01] <w_> Hello, got a question, someone changed the topic of a support request and it needs to be changed back, how can I find out what it was named before?
[12:02] <w_> or I guess it would be called the summary
[12:08] <w_> it was https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/totem/+ticket/3126
[12:09] <w_> I found the old summary in my email archives, but in case I didn't have that, how would I have seen the history of the edits made to a support request?