| Nafallo | BenC: hi! do you know of hand if grow for raid level 5 are implemented in the kernel yet? | 12:26 |
|---|---|---|
| BenC | Nafallo: grow by adding a disk? | 12:31 |
| BenC | if so, yes it is | 12:31 |
| Nafallo | nice. remember what kernel version? :-) | 12:31 |
| Nafallo | I have a user on #ubuntu-se that asks about it. running dapper :-P | 12:31 |
| BenC | I'm pretty sure edgy supported it | 12:31 |
| BenC | not sure about edgy | 12:31 |
| Nafallo | nice. I tell him to dist-upgrade and try then :-) | 12:32 |
| Nafallo | he wanted to compile 2.6.20 on dapper... | 12:32 |
| Nafallo | I guess thats a dumb idea? ;-) | 12:32 |
| kylem | no. it's fne. | 12:32 |
| kylem | booting it might be hard though. | 12:33 |
| kylem | 8) | 12:33 |
| Nafallo | lol | 12:33 |
| Nafallo | # CONFIG_MD_RAID5_RESHAPE is not set | 01:47 |
| Nafallo | :-P | 01:47 |
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| BenC | Nafallo: I said the kernel supported it...I didn't say it was enabled :P | 01:53 |
| Nafallo | :-) | 01:53 |
| BenC | I will enable it for feisty though | 01:53 |
| Nafallo | yay! | 01:54 |
| Nafallo | so the next kernel will have it? :-) | 01:54 |
| === Nafallo won't update his server before beta or rc anyway ;-) | ||
| BenC | yeah | 01:54 |
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| zul | hey foks | 03:30 |
| Nafallo | hi zul | 03:30 |
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| kylem | BenC, did you mean to send that to ubuntu-dveel? | 04:38 |
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| ivoks | anyone has an idea why linux-image packages in dapper and edgy depend on non-exsisting kernels? :) | 10:19 |
| cjwatson | ivoks: soyuz issue, being addressed | 10:20 |
| ivoks | thanks | 10:20 |
| cjwatson | ivoks: see #ubuntu-devel topic | 10:20 |
| ivoks | thanks once again :) | 10:22 |
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| BenC | kylem: No, the guy that sent it to me Cc's -devel, and I just reply-to-all and sent the reply there to | 01:47 |
| BenC | he got moderated, I didn't :/ | 01:47 |
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| poningru | so in edgy there is a dependency error that came up today | 01:48 |
| BenC | I will go away soon | 01:48 |
| poningru | k | 01:48 |
| poningru | did you want the error? | 01:49 |
| poningru | just making sure | 01:49 |
| poningru | thanks | 01:49 |
| zul | what happened I just got up :) | 01:50 |
| BenC | poningru: You mean the linux-meta packages not being satisfied by a proper kernel to install...it's known | 01:51 |
| BenC | s/I/it/ too :) | 01:51 |
| BenC | I wont go anywhere | 01:51 |
| poningru | BenC: thats the one | 01:51 |
| poningru | thanks | 01:52 |
| poningru | :) | 01:52 |
| zul | heh by the number of bug reports there is alot people who use linux-meta :) | 01:52 |
| poningru | well its -generic-header and -generic for me | 01:52 |
| poningru | but yeah | 01:52 |
| poningru | the -meta packages | 01:52 |
| BenC | zul: linux-generic is installed by default on people's systems | 01:53 |
| === ..[topic/#ubuntu-kernel:BenC] : Ubuntu kernel development discussion ONLY | Kernel Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam | 2.6.20-7.13 Uploaded - Things are getting solid now. Use it, but there are still a few missing modules. | ||
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| MadMan2k | might I ask a non directly development related question? | 02:15 |
| MadMan2k | why do I get 500MB of modules when I compile the kernel myself using make-kpkg, while the official linux_image is only 70MB? | 02:16 |
| MadMan2k | I used oldconfig | 02:19 |
| Lure | MadMan2k: because you compile all varians (generic, i386, bigiron, lowlatency...) | 02:20 |
| MadMan2k | makes sense :) | 02:22 |
| MadMan2k | Lure: if I append "--arch generic" will it give me generic only? | 02:23 |
| Lure | MadMan2k: generic+lowlatency (afair), but I build directly on git | 02:23 |
| MadMan2k | is there a list of parameters with which the official kernels are being built? | 02:32 |
| MadMan2k | I basically only want to apply 2 patches and leave everything else as is. | 02:32 |
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| kylem | BenC, ah ok | 03:25 |
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| dholbach | hello | 03:30 |
| zul | hi dholbach | 03:31 |
| pkl_ | dholbach: hu | 03:31 |
| dholbach | from -6 to -7 it seems that my skge eth0 is not automatically enabled anymore - does anybody know what I could do to debug this? | 03:31 |
| pkl_ | you means it's recognised (ifconfig eth0 reports it), but it is not configured? | 03:32 |
| dholbach | no, with -7, I have to sudo ifconfig eth0 up it myself) | 03:33 |
| dholbach | then I get a message in syslog that it got enabled | 03:33 |
| pkl_ | so, once you've brought it up, it is okay, and it is configured? How do you get your IP address? | 03:35 |
| dholbach | I run sudo dhclient | 03:35 |
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| dholbach | if you run wget http://daniel.holba.ch/temp/dmesg-{6,7}; diff -u dmesg-{6,7} | less you will see the difference in what's happening | 03:40 |
| pkl_ | ok, I was going to suggest a dmesg when you all disappeared... | 03:40 |
| dholbach | there's also the output of lspci -vvnn if you want that ( wget http://daniel.holba.ch/temp/vvnn-{6,7} ) | 03:40 |
| dholbach | (just look for skge at the bottom) | 03:41 |
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| dholbach | pkl_: you think I should file this as a bug? | 04:01 |
| pkl_ | dholbach: it's definately a bug, but not sure in what though. | 04:08 |
| pkl_ | dholbach: I'll have a look into how network interfaces are detected and brought up in Ubuntu. What version of Ubuntu are you using? | 04:09 |
| dholbach | pkl_: feisty, 2.6.20-7-generic on amd64 | 04:14 |
| dholbach | it's not terribly urgent, I can still use -6 - just didn't know if you need a bug report for that or how you proceed from there | 04:14 |
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| pkl_ | dholbach: I'm not sure either (having not been here long). Personally I would raise a bug report. | 04:22 |
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| dholbach | ok, I'll do that | 04:23 |
| dholbach | and I'll try on my i386 later on, if it happens there too | 04:23 |
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| dholbach | bug 84218 - if you need more information, yell :) | 04:30 |
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| BenC | dholbach: So the module loads, and the device is present in ifconfig -a, it just doesn't get configured? | 04:47 |
| BenC | dholbach: And going back to -6 (same userspace) works as expected? | 04:47 |
| dholbach | -6 works as expected - I didn't try ifconfig -a , plain ifconfig didn't show it | 04:48 |
| dholbach | I can reboot and try, if you like | 04:48 |
| BenC | yeah, without -a, you'll only see the ones that are up | 04:49 |
| BenC | if -a shows the device, then it's obviously working from the kernel side | 04:49 |
| dholbach | just un moment | 04:49 |
| pkl_ | it comes up in the dmesg as recognised, but, it doesn't get configured. | 04:52 |
| === philwyett [n=philwyet@bb-87-81-146-45.ukonline.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-kernel | ||
| kylem | try the sky2 module instead. | 04:53 |
| dholbach | it gets shown on ifconfig -a | 04:53 |
| dholbach | kylem: I modprobed it, but still it doesn't get configured | 04:54 |
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| dholbach | BenC, kylem, pkl_: any more info I can get you? | 04:55 |
| BenC | dholbach: If it gets loaded and recognized, the kernel pretty much did it's job | 04:56 |
| dholbach | hum | 04:56 |
| BenC | no idea why booting one or the other would change that, unless some uevent is missing | 04:57 |
| BenC | do you use ifupdown, or network-manager? | 04:57 |
| dholbach | the latter | 04:57 |
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| BenC | dholbach: Try ifupdown...if that works on both, then I suspect network-manager is being picky | 05:01 |
| dholbach | looks like the output of lshal changed completely | 05:01 |
| BenC | maybe the backend driver for skge needs to be updates for some trivial change | 05:01 |
| dholbach | maybe network-manager doesn't like that, nm doesn't seem to know about eth0 at all | 05:02 |
| kylem | oh. | 05:02 |
| === kylem didn't realize it was actually coming up properly. | ||
| dholbach | do you think it makes sense to attach the lshal logs and reassign to network-manager? | 05:04 |
| kylem | yeah. | 05:04 |
| dholbach | okay | 05:04 |
| dholbach | kylem, BenC, pkl_: thanks again - I reassigned it. | 05:08 |
| kylem | ok. cool. | 05:08 |
| kylem | dholbach, so it worked if you manually dhclient it? | 05:09 |
| dholbach | yes | 05:09 |
| kylem | ok. weird. ok. | 05:09 |
| dholbach | sudo ifconfig eth0 up && sudo dhclient makes it happy | 05:09 |
| dholbach | (then I have to restart all the nm bits, so gnome knows it can download mails and browse porn, etc.) | 05:09 |
| dholbach | b0ng | 05:09 |
| kylem | hehe | 05:10 |
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| MadMan2k | my self-compiled kernels (make-kpkg/ oldconfig) are always bloated at ~500MB. how can I make it compile as small as the official kernels? | 05:22 |
| pmjdebruijn | MadMan2k, erh, that's extremely weird | 05:23 |
| pmjdebruijn | MadMan2k, make-kpkg should produce just as small kernels | 05:23 |
| BenC | MadMan2k: if you are using the ubuntu config, disable CONFIG_DEBUG_INFO | 05:24 |
| BenC | we have it enabled so that we can get the linux-debug images | 05:24 |
| BenC | for oprofile and such | 05:24 |
| MadMan2k | that might be it | 05:24 |
| MadMan2k | gonna try it later - thx | 05:25 |
| maks_ | hey guys have you ever had reports of freezing lenovo 300 laptop on ntpdate cmd | 05:25 |
| BenC | but we strip the vmlinux and *.ko's after the build | 05:25 |
| BenC | maks_: Not that I can recall, but check launchpad | 05:25 |
| BenC | kylem: do you have an ia64? | 05:27 |
| kylem | not accessible, no. | 05:27 |
| BenC | the new acx driver fails to build on ia64 because of the WLAN_* compat for it went missing...my i2k is dead for some reason | 05:28 |
| BenC | maybe I can dig it up from git | 05:28 |
| kylem | hmm. | 05:29 |
| BenC | got it | 05:30 |
| maks_ | Benc: ok thanks | 05:35 |
| maks_ | Bugs in Linux: No results for search ntpdate | 05:39 |
| BenC | kylem: I need you to set your umask on rookery to 664 at least for push's | 05:52 |
| kylem | eh? what happened? | 05:53 |
| BenC | kylem: And then run "chmod g+w . -R" in /srv/kernel-team/private/edgy-ubuntu.git | 05:53 |
| BenC | kylem: perms blocking me on that git tree | 05:54 |
| kylem | on .git/HEAD? | 05:54 |
| BenC | No, objects | 05:54 |
| kylem | uh.. | 05:55 |
| kylem | well, i got a pile of -EPERM, but done. | 05:55 |
| BenC | weird | 05:55 |
| BenC | -r--rw-r-- 1 kyle kernel_team 2055 Jan 22 13:05 0244a8d6ba0bdda6f4c15484843d349a6ed68b | 05:55 |
| kylem | i don't see how you could be pushing the same objects as me. | 05:55 |
| BenC | did you have a 464 umask? :) | 05:56 |
| kylem | no. | 05:56 |
| kylem | 002. | 05:56 |
| kylem | er, 022 | 05:56 |
| kylem | now it's 002 | 05:56 |
| BenC | doh, writing inverted masks | 05:56 |
| BenC | I meant 002, right | 05:56 |
| kylem | eh? | 05:57 |
| cjwatson | ITYM 202 | 05:57 |
| kylem | i'm confused. | 05:57 |
| cjwatson | Ben meant to ask if your umask was 202, I believe | 05:57 |
| BenC | when I said your umask, I wrote 664, I mean 002 | 05:57 |
| kylem | i figured. | 05:57 |
| BenC | and then the 646 one | 05:57 |
| BenC | unable to write sha1 filename ./objects/95/30784fabf34b7c01b564f2ad3d2b14100097b6: Permission denied | 05:57 |
| BenC | that's what I got when pushing | 05:57 |
| kylem | must be a dir with the wrong perms. | 05:58 |
| BenC | not sure why it wouldn't let me create that object...maybe it'll work now | 05:58 |
| kylem | drwxrwsr-x 2 kyle kernel_team 4096 Feb 9 16:57 ./objects/95/ | 05:58 |
| kylem | that's... right though. | 05:58 |
| BenC | yeah, that works now | 05:58 |
| kylem | sorry, i'm trying to clean my inbox a bit atm. | 05:59 |
| kylem | all the canonical private lists missed my procmail rules since i started, so i'm trying to sort a bit. | 05:59 |
| BenC | good luck...I hate cleaning my inbox more than I hate taking our the garbage | 05:59 |
| kylem | hehe. | 05:59 |
| cjwatson | ---Mutt: /var/mail/cjwatson [Msgs:9906 New:638 Old:1168 Post:9 Inc:52 79M] ---(threads/date)--- | 06:00 |
| kylem | i finally worked up the balls to expire everything more than a year old from my synched maildir. | 06:00 |
| BenC | cjwatson: wow, my 19 emails seems a little humbled by that :) | 06:00 |
| === BenC has gotten liberal with the DEL key lately | ||
| kylem | hmm, i really don't need to be on activity@ anymore... | 06:02 |
| BenC | yay, two successful builds for 7.13 | 06:03 |
| zul | gah.. | 06:03 |
| zul | http://www.devxnews.com/article.php/3658001 | 06:04 |
| zul | xensource is not looking into getting included in upstream | 06:04 |
| BenC | "legacy virtualization"?!?! | 06:05 |
| zul | heh.. | 06:05 |
| BenC | "It lacks the benefits of para-virtualization performance enhancements that have been pioneered by Xen and are now being copied by VMware and Microsoft"!?!?!! | 06:05 |
| BenC | what kind of crack is this guy on? | 06:05 |
| zul | dunno | 06:05 |
| BenC | "Pratt also explained that Xen is no longer actively seeking inclusion in the mainline Linux kernel either." | 06:05 |
| BenC | lovely | 06:05 |
| kylem | i think that's kind o fbullshit. | 06:08 |
| BenC | it's a load of something, and it smells like my yard...bullshit sounds like a good guess | 06:08 |
| kylem | hah. | 06:08 |
| BenC | I think xensource likes Xen being hard and not integrated | 06:09 |
| zul | xen likes to make me bald | 06:09 |
| kylem | i think xensource wishes it was still a research project. | 06:09 |
| BenC | I think it still is | 06:09 |
| kylem | they seem to be trying very hard to make it a commercial product... | 06:10 |
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| pkl_ | cynically, a lot of the para-vitualisation work that has gone into the kernel for kvm/Lguest may conflict with Xen. They've had a lot of resistance to how they do things on lkml, and may not wish to change their code to be more inline with kvm/Lguest changes. | 06:21 |
| pkl_ | only a guess, but nothing else makes sense IMHO | 06:21 |
| BenC | paravirt isn't supposed to get rid of conflicts | 06:22 |
| BenC | err, is supposed to | 06:22 |
| BenC | Xen/KVM/VMI should all be able to live together if paravirt is implemented correctly | 06:23 |
| pkl_ | yeah, which is why it doesn't make sense why they don't want to cooperate. | 06:23 |
| BenC | It's odd how they can use paravirt as a selling point for them and against the other implementations in the same sentence | 06:24 |
| zul | they are trying to cooperate | 06:24 |
| zul | http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/virtualization/2007-February/002004.html | 06:24 |
| pkl_ | but maybe they don't. It may simply be sour grapes, they've been trying to get it accepted for two years, and a jhonny-come-lately has gone in with much less trouble. | 06:24 |
| kylem | the johnny-come-lately was... several MEGABYTES less delta to the core kenrle. | 06:25 |
| BenC | they say that kvm lacks paravirtualization, when that's simply not true...it's not in 2.6.20, but it's there | 06:26 |
| pkl_ | heh, but they're probably coming from the direction that their several megabytes more delta was valid... | 06:26 |
| kylem | bullshit. | 06:26 |
| BenC | not to mention that kvm needs a lot less paravirt enhancement for the same performance, when the implementation is complete | 06:26 |
| kylem | they diverted huge swaths of core kernel code with #ifdefs instead of creating new abstractions. | 06:27 |
| kylem | they shouldn't have to look too far to see why they never did, and probably never will get merged as it stands now. | 06:27 |
| mjg59 | Is the Xen code in Linux not just for the case where you want to run a paravirtualised Linux under Xen? | 06:27 |
| BenC | the xen para-virt domU patch was horribly large and touched way to much core kernel | 06:27 |
| mjg59 | I almost got hired to do ACPI support in Xen | 06:28 |
| kylem | mjg59, i don't recall how much the dom0 stuff mucked with. | 06:28 |
| BenC | mjg59: No, up until recently, the Xen kernel stuff was dom0(hypervisor) and domU support all together | 06:28 |
| mjg59 | Oh. Well, unsurprising that they lose. | 06:28 |
| pkl_ | I'm not defending them, but I know how Cambridge university types think (having worked there). | 06:28 |
| mjg59 | pkl_: I'm still a Cambridge university type :) | 06:28 |
| BenC | someone took the time to pull out the domU stuff with paravirt, but it was still a 500k patch, and touched > 150 files of core kernel | 06:28 |
| mjg59 | Eurgh. | 06:29 |
| kylem | i think i'm ruined by being a kernel hacker first, and an academic second. i've been doing this since long before i started uni. ;P | 06:29 |
| pkl_ | mjg59: really, you work at the Computer Laboratory? | 06:29 |
| mjg59 | pkl_: No, I'm a geneticist | 06:29 |
| BenC | no one knows why mjg59 works on the kernel considering his field of study :) | 06:30 |
| pkl_ | A lot of people at Cambridge have a superiority complex. They may simply hate having come 2nd. | 06:30 |
| kylem | BenC, masochism was my best guess. | 06:30 |
| Nafallo | mjg59: do it! acpi is what I lack in XEN ;-) | 06:31 |
| mjg59 | Nafallo: Nnngh. | 06:31 |
| kylem | pkl_, 2nd to what? | 06:31 |
| mjg59 | Rusty. | 06:31 |
| pkl_ | hm, second to kvm. | 06:31 |
| mjg59 | Heh | 06:31 |
| kylem | oh. | 06:31 |
| mjg59 | Ian Pratt is actually really nice | 06:31 |
| mjg59 | Mind you, I say that about most people who've bought me booze | 06:32 |
| BenC | lol | 06:32 |
| pkl_ | Yes, I used to know Ian Pratt, we went out drinking together in Cambridge several times each week for months whilst I worked there. | 06:32 |
| kylem | mjg59, that's a pretty good system | 06:33 |
| pkl_ | Ian Pratt was finishing off his PhD, while I was working there as a post-doc. | 06:33 |
| pkl_ | Ian Pratt went on to get a college fellowship, while I realised without a Cambridge PhD there was liitle chance of progression (and I too old to apply for a college fellowship). I got my PhD from Lancaster University, which at that time was doing multimedia computing research comparable to Cambridge. I decided to go to Acorn to design a new multimedia operating system for them. They went bust 2 years later, the operating system got cancelled | 06:38 |
| pkl_ | , and the rest is history. | 06:38 |
| mjg59 | I want to be the bestest kernel hacker with a genetics PhD in the world ever | 06:39 |
| kylem | i think you already are, minus the phd part. | 06:39 |
| kylem | but if you'd stop wasting your time with acpi maybe you could get that done. ;P | 06:39 |
| mjg59 | Bah. | 06:39 |
| mjg59 | I've written 150 lines of perl today. | 06:40 |
| mjg59 | That's most of a paper. | 06:40 |
| kylem | hehe. | 06:40 |
| kylem | why is perl so popular in biology? | 06:40 |
| pkl_ | because fortran is old-fashioned? | 06:40 |
| mjg59 | Because most genetics is just writing the right regexp | 06:40 |
| kylem | pfft. fortran is a fine language. | 06:40 |
| pkl_ | I used fortran for a couple of things in 1985. It was extremely popular at time in Physics and Engineering :-( | 06:41 |
| === kylem had to learn fortran a few years ago to help some friends debug some satellite simulation crap. painful. | ||
| kylem | ancient code from goddard... in F77... | 06:42 |
| kylem | (this was like, in 2001, F95 had been around for... a while...) | 06:42 |
| pkl_ | mjg59: BTW which department is in the New Museums site now the computer lab has moved? | 06:42 |
| mjg59 | pkl_: Various people grabbed it | 06:43 |
| mjg59 | Bits of archaeology, zoology, the computing service, materials... | 06:43 |
| pkl_ | kylem: at least you've never had to learn/use COBOL. COBOL 66 lovely :-) | 06:43 |
| kylem | heh. i've never even seen cobol code. | 06:44 |
| kylem | BenC, this looks bad: | 06:44 |
| kylem | Rejected: | 06:44 |
| kylem | UploadError escaped upload.process: File linux-source-2.6.17_2.6.17.1-11.35.dsc | 06:44 |
| kylem | as mentioned in the changes file was not found. | 06:44 |
| kylem | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- | 06:44 |
| BenC | kylem: talk to pitti...might have something to do with the security>proposed pocket fixes | 06:45 |
| kylem | sigh. | 06:45 |
| BenC | maybe he didn't get all the files into the queue | 06:45 |
| zul | kylem: you dont want to...believe me...they still teach it at algonquin when i was there | 06:45 |
| BenC | Algonquin...I love saying that name | 06:45 |
| pkl_ | cobol or fortran? | 06:45 |
| mjg59 | My MBP should be turning up on Monday | 06:45 |
| zul | pkl_: both | 06:45 |
| mjg59 | It seems to take years for Intel to get round to posting stuff | 06:45 |
| kylem | mjg59, it's hot. enjoy OS X. | 06:45 |
| kylem | :P | 06:45 |
| pkl_ | yuck, at least fortran is concise. Cobol is a managers idea of a programming language, things are grouped together in parapgraphs. And each line of code is a sentence. No joke... | 06:46 |
| kylem | yow. | 06:47 |
| zul | pkl: heh i still remember the four dvisions of cobol thats about it | 06:47 |
| pkl_ | Perform para1 thru para8 varying counter by 1 until counter equals 10. or something like that is a for statement. | 06:47 |
| === kylem cries. | ||
| pkl_ | yeah, the "initialization division". Try typing that from the UK, and more often than not you type "initialisation division". On a batch processing system, when compiles are added during the day, and run at night in batch mode, you can wait a whole day to find you've used a 's' rather than a 'z' :-( | 06:51 |
| mjg59 | BenC: 84238 - we should get 2.6.17 removed | 06:51 |
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| cjwatson | the computer lab was never all that much of the new museums site anyway | 06:54 |
| cjwatson | I mean, the tower and stuff, yeah, but I kept finding new departments on the NMS that I'd never previously heard of | 06:55 |
| cjwatson | the place is a TARDIS | 06:55 |
| cjwatson | huh, 2.6.17 isn't gone already? | 06:56 |
| mjg59 | Well, either that or the user is awfully confused | 06:57 |
| cjwatson | BenC: ack linux-source-2.6.17 removal from feisty? | 06:57 |
| pkl_ | yeah, I meant the bit of the NMS that the lab occupied. All the 'junk' than had accumulated had to go somewhere, the cap computer was still stuck in a corridor when I was there. | 06:57 |
| BenC | cjwatson: Sure, was just looking into filing a bug for it :) | 06:57 |
| cjwatson | it does seem like a bug that we break 2.6.17's initramfs with feisty's tools, though | 06:57 |
| zul | cjwatson: can you remove xen-source-2.6.17 as well? | 06:57 |
| cjwatson | that will surely cause upgrade pain | 06:57 |
| cjwatson | zul: what's current in feisty? | 06:58 |
| zul | 2.6.19 | 06:59 |
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| cjwatson | oh | 06:59 |
| cjwatson | he ran mkinitrd | 06:59 |
| cjwatson | not mkinitramfs | 07:00 |
| === cjwatson reassigns to initrd-tools | ||
| cjwatson | zul: oh, I was confused by the source package being just 'xen-source' now | 07:03 |
| cjwatson | BenC,zul: done | 07:03 |
| zul | cjwatson: thanks.. | 07:03 |
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| BenC | cjwatson: thanks | 07:07 |
| fvaler | bochs? | 07:21 |
| kylem | mjg59, fwd'd the mail from alan to you and ben. i'll try cooking a patch up on monda. | 07:42 |
| pkl_ | kylem: is that email about the para_acpi driver? | 07:47 |
| pkl_ | para -> pata | 07:47 |
| kylem | no. HPA. | 07:48 |
| mjg59 | kylem: It's a pretty tiny amount of code | 07:48 |
| pkl_ | okay, the protected area stuff? | 07:48 |
| mjg59 | kylem: I suspect that the difficult bit is just getting it into a state where the libata guys will take it | 07:49 |
| mjg59 | pkl_: Yp | 07:49 |
| pkl_ | can you forward it me as well then? I am apparently part of the kernel-team now? | 07:49 |
| kylem | email? | 07:50 |
| pkl_ | ah, that's what you said it was. | 07:52 |
| kylem | i was asking for your address, but i went and fetched it anyway. | 07:52 |
| pkl_ | oh good :-) phillip.lougher@canonical.com would have worked. | 07:53 |
| cjwatson | BenC: could you have a look at bug 84094? symlinks seem to be buggered after installation | 07:54 |
| pkl_ | kylem: Diolch yn fawr... (that's thanks very much BTW in Welsh, as its about Alan). | 07:57 |
| BenC | cjwatson: checking... | 07:59 |
| fvaler | the linux kernel is more often than not in C or c++? | 08:04 |
| fvaler | C isn't it | 08:04 |
| mjg59 | All in C | 08:04 |
| pkl_ | C and a small amount of assembler | 08:05 |
| fvaler | Excellent | 08:05 |
| fvaler | So only the windows kernel is in c++? | 08:05 |
| fvaler | atleast large chunks of it are | 08:05 |
| pkl_ | No, Symbian (used on mobile phones) is C++ | 08:05 |
| fvaler | which would you guys p refer to use | 08:06 |
| pkl_ | Or a bastardised variant anyway. | 08:06 |
| fvaler | c/c++ as far as the kernel goes? | 08:06 |
| pkl_ | C is lower-level, allows more exposure to the underlying architecture, is more efficient. I wouldn't use C++ for anything personally. | 08:07 |
| kylem | eh? anything you can do for a kernel in C, you can do in C++, you can even use almost all C++ language features in a kernel... | 08:08 |
| fvaler | ok personally that sounds fine | 08:08 |
| fvaler | kylem: exactly | 08:08 |
| kylem | that said, i hate C++ with a firey burning hatred. | 08:08 |
| fvaler | why? | 08:08 |
| kylem | Mac OS X is written mostly in C++. | 08:09 |
| fvaler | I really dont understand this | 08:09 |
| fvaler | large chunks of windows is written in c++ as well | 08:09 |
| kylem | because for a kernel, it's overkill unless you are a really lazy person. | 08:09 |
| kylem | the only real benefit to Linux would be implicit "this" pointer for function pointers in a struct | 08:09 |
| fvaler | BUt it doesn;t lack anything C can do it can't | 08:09 |
| kylem | so you don't have crap like, sb->someop(sb, ...); | 08:09 |
| kylem | g++ is slower than dragging source lines through molasses anyways. | 08:10 |
| pkl_ | this is a religous way, arguments for and against C and C++ can be made. I've never liked C++ as it encourages abstraction and information hiding when in the kernel you don't anything that bloats or makes it slower. | 08:11 |
| pkl_ | way -> war | 08:11 |
| kylem | c++ also encourages overuse of function pointers, which are pretty nasty on most processors. | 08:12 |
| fvaler | kylem: actually i dont think you can use c+= for kernel | 08:13 |
| fvaler | neither on windows or linux | 08:13 |
| fvaler | The difficulty is controlling linkage for things such as template instantiations | 08:13 |
| kylem | you can. | 08:13 |
| kylem | you have to disable rtti. | 08:13 |
| fvaler | http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/driver/kernel/KMcode.mspx#EDE | 08:13 |
| fvaler | C++ has RTTI. | 08:14 |
| mjg59 | The only C++ I'm familiar with in the Linux kernel is a huge pile of junk that the linuxant drivers wedge in | 08:14 |
| kylem | ... | 08:14 |
| fvaler | C++ without RTTI isn't C++. Furthermore, that's far from the only problem. | 08:14 |
| pkl_ | C++ is probably better for large projects with clear separation between components developed by multiple teams. Often the gain in development is compensation for the (potential) loss of performance | 08:14 |
| kylem | ok, you're either dense, or an idiot. | 08:14 |
| kylem | one way or another, you're wrong, and this is off-topic. | 08:15 |
| fvaler | kylem: i'm sorry? | 08:15 |
| fvaler | C++ has RTTI | 08:15 |
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| kylem | -f-no-rtti | 08:15 |
| kylem | welcome to my /ignore. | 08:15 |
| fvaler | Woah | 08:15 |
| pkl_ | yes, this off-topic | 08:15 |
| fvaler | Offtopic maybe but we're talking about the kernel actually | 08:16 |
| fvaler | Just in C++ | 08:16 |
| kylem | kickban someone? | 08:16 |
| fvaler | Peopple who disagree with you are idiots always? | 08:16 |
| kylem | http://netlab.ru.is/exception/LinuxCXX.shtml | 08:16 |
| mjg59 | fvaler: Two issues: | 08:17 |
| mjg59 | fvaler: You're wrong that C++ can't be used in the kernel. It's just that if you do it, nobody will ever speak to you again. | 08:17 |
| mjg59 | fvaler: And secondly, this channel is for discussion of development of the Ubuntu kernel, not generic kernel issues | 08:17 |
| fvaler | I understand but name calling over something he disagrees with is preposterous | 08:18 |
| fvaler | Not mature | 08:18 |
| fvaler | let's read his link anyway | 08:18 |
| pkl_ | fvaler: I've never treated anyone as an idiot for simply disagreeing. | 08:18 |
| mjg59 | Well, it's not a disagreement. It's a statement of fact. | 08:18 |
| mjg59 | But that's unimportant. | 08:18 |
| fvaler | Ok | 08:18 |
| fvaler | kylem: That research is about changing the linux kernel to support C++. | 08:19 |
| fvaler | Note the implication that it doesn't support it. | 08:20 |
| fvaler | It still doesn't. | 08:20 |
| kylem | it never will. because it's a shitty language. now GO AWAY. | 08:20 |
| kylem | take it to #kernelnewbies. | 08:20 |
| zul | ok enough...this is totally offtopic | 08:20 |
| fvaler | I'm at kernelnewbies | 08:22 |
| fvaler | And they agree with what I said it simply doesn't | 08:22 |
| zul | ENOUGH | 08:23 |
| BenC | fvaler: Basic idea is that whether or not C++ will work, or can work in the linux kernel is completely irrelevant to this channel, and most people here probably feel that the topic is more trolling than anything | 08:24 |
| fvaler | BenC: I gave up wrt to the topic and pretty much done | 08:25 |
| kylem | fvaler, look, i'm sorry, but i /HAVE WRITTEN/ linux kernel c++ code before. classes and all. that's clearly C++. i don't want to argue anymore. | 08:25 |
| fvaler | That paper doesn't say anything | 08:25 |
| fvaler | The paper I gave you is about using C++ in ways that are compatible with the kernel; the point is that C++ isn't supported. | 08:25 |
| fvaler | But yeah ok. | 08:25 |
| kylem | maybe not fully, but you can certainly get by. | 08:26 |
| fvaler | Not for the sake of arguing but lots of people have written C++ code for a kernel, and even more have compiled C code with a C++ compiler for a kernel | 08:29 |
| fvaler | Dude my only point is it has no bearing on whether C++ is a language supported by the kernel. | 08:29 |
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