[12:41] <troy_s> What now.
[12:41] <Schalken> where is all the feisty artwork in the wiki?
[12:41] <troy_s> It isn't.
[12:42] <Schalken> is it anywhere?
[12:43] <troy_s> No.
[12:43] <Schalken> humph :\
[12:43] <troy_s> Well aside from running a chroot, vmware-player, or like ap.
[12:43] <troy_s> Why do you want it?
[12:44] <Schalken> just wanted to see how it was going
[12:44] <Schalken> if at all
[12:44] <troy_s> It is pretty much done, with some small movements along the way I am sure.
[12:45] <Schalken> is there a place i can see? (other than by upgrading)
[12:45] <troy_s> Probably not.
[12:45] <troy_s> Use vmwareplayer
[12:45] <troy_s> It is relatively painless...
[12:46] <troy_s> Seeing it isn't a huge deal though.
[12:46] <troy_s> As (thankfully) the opinions won't matter.
[12:46] <troy_s> Otherwise it just opens up a silly bikeshed of silly opinions.
[12:47] <Schalken> well im actually in opensuse atm
[12:47] <troy_s> Great.  Then don't worry about it.
[12:47] <Schalken> lol
[01:32] <kwwii> troy_s: hey man, fell asleep, sorry
[01:32] <kwwii> I guess it is high time for me to send an email to the list ;-)
[01:33] <kwwii> woke up after having bad dreams..my mind knows when "I've got mail" it seems
[01:35] <kwwii> troy_s: I'm putting an email together for the art list - will send it tomorrow morning
[01:43] <troy_s> kwwii sure...
[01:43] <troy_s> it doesn't really matter
[01:43] <troy_s> it's not like it is up for discussion etc...
[01:44] <kwwii> actually, i want it to be
[01:44] <kwwii> it is up for discussion within bounds
[01:44] <kwwii> that would help us prove how usefull we can be
[01:52] <kwwii> anyway, going on 2am here
[01:53] <kwwii> time for sleep (again)
[01:55] <troy_s> kwwii I see your point.
[01:56] <troy_s> Problem is, it can open up a can of bikeshed that is really worthless, unless you lay in some serious
[01:56] <troy_s> and I mean _serious_ ground rules.
[01:56] <kwwii> well, that is why I want to start writing an email today and send it tomorrow :p
[01:56] <kwwii> (and ask the opinions of you and other in the know first)
[01:56] <troy_s> Did you make a decision on palette concepts yet?
[01:57] <troy_s> I think we could do a 'hunt and gather' the stinky colours in the icons presently, which is far from ideal but...
[01:57] <kwwii> I've been playing around with them...not sure exactly in which direction to go yet
[01:57] <troy_s> Yeah ok...
[01:57] <troy_s> If you make a decision, it might be nice to actually bring the icons into line...
[01:57] <kwwii> definitely
[01:58] <troy_s> (assuming you keep the tan as the root, i am pretty sure we could find a tone that works that is close to the existing colours...)
[01:58] <troy_s> a very easy project really, assuming you can figure out a palette base you like.
[01:58] <kwwii> yeah, I think the tan is pretty much default now
[01:58] <troy_s> Well yah... I am not suggesting dumping the tan
[01:58] <troy_s> But as you could see, you have quite a few options
[01:58] <kwwii> well, part of this was a discussion that I started with Jane about how much we can change the official logo colors for use on screen
[01:59] <troy_s> even within locking the tan as say, a 60% 'feel' color
[01:59] <kwwii> trying to cover my ass before I leap
[01:59] <troy_s> Jane is rather useless
[01:59] <troy_s> considering that it is sab's call.
[01:59] <troy_s> (i know your contract probably says jane though)
[01:59] <kwwii> actually I was told to do it through her (and I have some experience working with her)
[01:59] <kwwii> so I need to get her to nod her head once
[01:59] <troy_s> _and_ considering that the other 'heads of state' all sit idly by whilst the design issues amass more and more problems.
[01:59] <troy_s> absolutely.
[02:00] <kwwii> the more I do the more I see how much they are leaving this stuff to me
[02:00] <troy_s> It just seems that inevitably, sab will pull the pin.
[02:00] <kwwii> probably so that if I make the mistakes it comes back on me
[02:00] <kwwii> which is fine by me ;-)
[02:00] <troy_s> Well mistakes are... relative.
[02:00] <troy_s> And, in an ideal world, expected.
[02:00] <kwwii> yepp, it is the whole picture that is more important this time around
[02:00] <troy_s> As one could argue that all of the bloody buntu's are a mistake as of now.
[02:00] <troy_s> lol
[02:01] <troy_s> They certainly all suffer from the same issues fundamentally.
[02:01] <kwwii> the best/worst part of this cycle is that I have a long way to go and a short time to get there, so nobody can expect the world
[02:01] <troy_s> I think part of that is rooted in the stinking GNOME/KDE politics.
[02:01] <kwwii> that is true, although I call it religion, not politics
[02:01] <kwwii> ;-)
[02:01] <troy_s> Well... yes it is worse than politics.
[02:02] <kwwii> it is not founded on any real intelligent reasoning
[02:02] <troy_s> In politics at least you can assassinate people and have it die.
[02:02] <kwwii> as we are a distro we can go around that though
[02:02] <troy_s> Nope.
[02:02] <troy_s> Sort of...
[02:02] <troy_s> I was speaking with an unnamed person today
[02:02] <troy_s> and I can tell you, it roots deep.
[02:02] <troy_s> Everyone is quite gutless
[02:03] <troy_s> No one wants to make a decision and simply turns things into an 'upstream' issue.
[02:03] <kwwii> dude, the upstream themeing discussion is a no-go
[02:03] <troy_s> ???
[02:03] <kwwii> there is little chance that gnome and kde are going to ever want to be the same
[02:03] <troy_s> No when speaking of the 'larger' design issues.
[02:03] <troy_s> God no
[02:03] <troy_s> That's the point
[02:04] <troy_s> But reality, the end user (lets assume say, someone in the 18-36 region with no FOSS experience) gives a shit about the politics -- they just get a desktop and they either think it stinks or doesn't.
[02:04] <troy_s> It has very little to do with politics.
[02:04] <kwwii> if you look at what we have done with the oxygen icons you will see that we have put thought into working well with gnome (tango)
[02:04] <troy_s> for better or worse
[02:04] <kwwii> sure, for the end user the whole thing is turned completely around
[02:05] <troy_s> I find it difficult to reconcile anything universal with my background.
[02:05] <troy_s> The terms simply doesn't exist, so designing for that myth is absolutely folly.
[02:05] <troy_s> It inherently will involve aesthetics.
[02:05] <troy_s> And that means a very distinct 'twist' on a concept.
[02:06] <kwwii> yeah
[02:07] <kwwii> on another topic, do you know how to install feisty in vmware?
[02:07] <troy_s> yes
[02:07] <troy_s> very simple
[02:07] <troy_s> first
[02:07] <troy_s> sudo aptitude install vmware-player
[02:07] <troy_s> 2nd make a vmx set
[02:08] <troy_s> www.easyvmx.com i think
[02:08] <kwwii> I have a vmware server running
[02:08] <troy_s> will work for you
[02:08] <troy_s> third, download install iso and install it.
[02:08] <kwwii> ahh, cool, that is what I was looking for
[02:08] <troy_s> ;)
[02:08] <kwwii> well, the installer borks everytime I get past the keyboard stuff
[02:08] <kwwii> it just sits there
[02:08] <kwwii> on the console there is some complaint about the hard drive
[02:09] <kwwii> hehe, since I updated my kernel it now seems to work ::-)
[02:09] <kwwii> sorry for the bother
[02:11] <kwwii> time for bed now though
[02:16] <kwwii> see you tomorrow
[02:44] <coz_> evening all
[02:44] <the_fool> hello
[02:44] <coz_> hey guy:)
[02:45] <the_fool> :)
[02:45] <coz_> I don't know eeryon who comes here but ar eyou new?
[02:45] <the_fool> yep
[02:45] <coz_> well then welcome :)
[02:45] <the_fool> thnaks
[02:45] <the_fool> brb
[02:46] <coz_> so have you come to discuss , or show work, or just hang out /
[06:56] <darkmatter> hiya klepas
[07:13] <klepas> hey darkmatter
[07:13] <klepas> how's the cold?
[07:15] <darkmatter> getting better
[07:15] <darkmatter> now I can work on glory more and catch up on bashing out the toolkit foundations fore my soon-to-start code project
[07:36] <klepas> :-)
[06:19] <troy_s> kwwii
[07:03] <kwwii> re
[07:04] <troy_s> kwwii are you still interested in that GDM?
[07:04] <kwwii> troy_s: definitely
[07:04] <troy_s> it seems like your balls are pinched for time, so I figured I would ask about it before i pushed a branch.
[07:04] <kwwii> lol
[07:05] <kwwii> please do, I'll work on gdm this week, so I can start from your branch
[07:05] <troy_s> there are actually a few 'bugs' in the code too.
[07:05] <troy_s> as in finite set sizes for the entry box
[07:05] <troy_s> etc
[07:05] <troy_s> hard coded messes
[07:05] <kwwii> nasty
[07:05] <troy_s> ideally, those would be 100% scalable
[07:05] <troy_s> they are easy to fix, but the 'fix' might pop up some new features ;)
[07:05] <kwwii> I looked into it a bit and wondered exactly which values are really used and which are ignored
[07:05] <troy_s> i was looking into the german word wrap issue
[07:06] <troy_s> but i can't seem to see a way to adjust for wrappage
[07:06] <troy_s> i can clip
[07:06] <troy_s> but no wrap
[07:06] <troy_s> well there are two portions of stanza that are completely there just to take up space
[07:06] <kwwii> yeah, there is no intelligent text engine for that
[07:06] <troy_s> i'll try to get the fixes in and push a branch.
[07:06] <kwwii> excellent, thanks
[07:06] <troy_s> kwwii: it is an upstream issue
[07:06] <troy_s> and wrapping
[07:06] <troy_s> would adjust the 'box' vars which adjusts composition etc.
[07:07] <troy_s> kwwii: Have you heard of UIML?
[07:07] <kwwii> I'll start filing bugs against gdm with my kde.org account :p
[07:07] <kwwii> nope, never heard of it
[07:07] <troy_s> Look into it... it is quite interesting in terms of designing towards the future.
[07:07] <troy_s> it is a universal interface markup language
[07:07] <kwwii> wow, cool
[07:07] <troy_s> that makes no assumptions about how something is to be displayed
[07:07] <kwwii> sounds interesting
[07:08] <troy_s> it is rather interesting because it tackles all of the accessibility issues/power user issues/etc
[07:08] <troy_s> with one broad stroke -- preventing app designers from 'locking' their interfaces into a particular layout
[07:08] <troy_s> and it provides XML for a specialized interface designer to tweak
[07:08] <troy_s> rather interesting on a side note...
[07:08] <troy_s> just reminded me from dicking with GDM
[07:09] <kwwii> killer
[07:10] <troy_s> have a peek at it... it has some good ideas in it.
[07:10] <kwwii> I will
[07:10] <troy_s> so
[07:11] <troy_s> what i was going to say
[07:11] <troy_s> is push your last branch into gdm with your changes
[07:11] <troy_s> and let me pull fresh off of it
[07:11] <troy_s> so that we don't get too worried about merges
[07:11] <kwwii> until now I have no changes ;-)
[07:11] <troy_s> (simple incremental makes it easier as you can imagine)
[07:11] <troy_s> okie
[07:11] <troy_s> i thought you pushed new art for the gdm
[07:11] <kwwii> going to add a new logo when I work on the version from the usplash
[07:11] <troy_s> logo wise etc.
[07:11] <troy_s> ahh.
[07:11] <kwwii> etienne had some great comments
[07:11] <troy_s> ok no guarantees, but I will try to clean it up now or so
[07:12] <kwwii> great
[07:12] <troy_s> echoed the nerf the white
[07:12] <troy_s> et is a very clever guy
[07:12] <troy_s> who_'s original CoF has some very fresh 'fruity' colours in the grads which really work.
[07:12] <troy_s> if you could somehow recapture that, i think it would solve the white pink issues.
[07:13] <kwwii> yeah, the pink seems a bit much to me
[07:15] <troy_s> it is obviously unintentional
[07:15] <troy_s> just a byproduct of the classic white gloss
[07:15] <kwwii> yeah, it comes from the palette
[07:15] <kwwii> I had an idea about the bg though
[07:16] <kwwii> making a pic with a gradient as it is now, but not scale the pic and put it on a solid color bg (with the same color as the outside of the gradient
[07:16] <troy_s> perhaps cheating the hue on the gloss might work -- instead of value only (ie adding white translucency)
[07:16] <kwwii> that way people with large screens would not notice that the pic does not fit
[07:16] <troy_s> interesting idea
[07:16] <troy_s> if it is svg though, zoom will take care of that without breaking it down
[07:17] <kwwii> true
[07:17] <troy_s> funny you should mention that, the current WIP i have now
[07:17] <kwwii> not sure about using an svg though
[07:17] <troy_s> for a side project
[07:17] <troy_s> is 17% opaque
[07:17] <kwwii> lol
[07:17] <troy_s> and relies on a vertical background grad
[07:17] <kwwii> ouch, I wonder why
[07:17] <troy_s> well it is by design
[07:17] <troy_s> in gnome, the background grad will show through if your png/svg is translucent
[07:18] <troy_s> which can make for some interesting mixes.
[07:18] <troy_s> It allows for a user to tweak a colour base without needinga full blown new wallpaper
[07:18] <troy_s> (within some obvious limitations that aren't worth mentioning ;) )
[07:19] <troy_s> did you try one with the centre punch moved over?
[07:19] <kwwii> seems like it would be better to just use a pic like you want
[07:19] <kwwii> it certainly would save a bit of time loading
[07:19] <troy_s> it saves a bit, but is a bit more flexible.
[07:19] <kwwii> yeah, I am in the process of doing just that
[07:20] <troy_s> for people who want the 'design' but
[07:20] <troy_s> don't want a given colour set
[07:20] <kwwii> gotcha
[07:20] <troy_s> (dynamic hooks into the SVG is an ideal scenario)
[07:20] <troy_s> darkmatter and I were working on something akin to that
[07:20] <troy_s> for themes
[07:20] <troy_s> setup a few icons with some established escape sequences and let the user tweak the colours through python
[07:20] <kwwii> interesting
[07:20] <troy_s> into Tropic nightmares of their own love.
[07:21] <troy_s> Python is the best thing to happen to computing since sliced bread.
[07:22] <kwwii> lol
[07:22] <troy_s> speak of the sick devil
[07:23] <troy_s> how's the flu dark?
[07:23] <troy_s> kwwii: By the way, you never answered on a question I asked ages ago
[07:23] <troy_s> Why did the default folder icon change?  I know it is a work in progress, but the earlier versions I saw seemed more elegant.
[07:24] <darkmatter> troy_s, hiya
[07:24] <troy_s> or is that nino(sp?)
[07:24] <darkmatter> its better now... kinda... just gotback from the hospital...
[07:24] <troy_s> sheesh
[07:24] <darkmatter> I hate my lungs
[07:25] <troy_s> darkmatter: Have you had any time for the middle grey project?
[07:25] <troy_s> darkmatter: I have some time to try plugging away at the python elements.
[07:26] <darkmatter> haha... yeah... was feeling well enough to work on it last night.. then 15 minutes after I started gimping my lungs threw a hissy fit
[07:27] <darkmatter> but I think I'll be able to do more today
[07:27] <kwwii> troy_s: it was one of those group decisions that I didn't win, basically
[07:28] <troy_s> lol
[07:28] <troy_s> kwwii Fall down go boom
[07:28] <darkmatter> haha
[07:28] <kwwii> exactly :-)
[07:28] <troy_s> kwwii Well that's too bad.  How many folks contribute to oxygen beyond yourself?
[07:28] <troy_s> nuino and ?
[07:28] <kwwii> nuno and david
[07:28] <troy_s> ah.
[07:29] <troy_s> wow... that's a pro wrestling 2:1
[07:29] <kwwii> and nuno does pretty much whatever david wants
[07:29] <kwwii> yeah
[07:29] <troy_s> Sounds like fun.
[07:29] <troy_s> Patsies.
[07:29] <troy_s> ;)
[07:29] <kwwii> oh yeah, you gotta love a good democracy
[07:29] <troy_s> You got to love em.
[07:29] <darkmatter> this is one of those "sabdfl flexes his deep pockets n says "I'm da daddy.... we use these folders.. NOW!!!!" moments?
[07:29] <darkmatter> ;)
[07:30] <troy_s> Yep.  Isn't that the addage that a giraffe is what you get when you try to create a horse through democracy?
[07:30] <kwwii> lol, yeah
[07:30] <troy_s> although i have some fundamental disagreements with it -- most of the best work i have ever seen is through tight collaboration.
[07:30] <troy_s> ultimately, it is the individuals involved.
[07:33] <troy_s> kwwii do you do the 'hardware' icons?
[07:33] <kwwii> oh believe me when I say that the teamwork on oxygen is sooo much better than it was on crystal
[07:33] <kwwii> troy_s: well, I have done quite a few of them
[07:33] <kwwii> I am the best illustrator in the group
[07:33] <kwwii> and those icons are very realistic
[07:36] <darkmatter> brb
[07:38] <kwwii> this weekend went by way too fast
[07:47] <PingunZ> kwwii, mind sharing the link ? :)
[07:47] <PingunZ> of your flickr
[07:49] <kwwii> PingunZ: www.flickr.com/people/kwwii/
[07:49] <PingunZ> k, thx :)
[07:50] <kwwii> not too much there yet
[07:50] <kwwii> but you can see the lasagne I made today
[07:50] <PingunZ> hehe
[07:50] <PingunZ> nice
[07:50] <PingunZ> :)
[07:50] <PingunZ> a lil' too long in the oven imo
[07:51] <kwwii> lol
[07:53] <PingunZ> I think google should make a flickr like thing
[07:53] <troy_s> isn't that where picassa is heading?
[07:54] <PingunZ> troy_s, didn't know about that, but you're right :)
[07:55] <PingunZ> 250mb, not bad