[05:06] <effie_jayx> !schedule caracas
[05:06] <effie_jayx> @schedule caracas
[05:06] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Caracas: 13 Feb 08:00: Community Council | 13 Feb 12:00: Forum Council | 13 Feb 16:00: Technical Board | 14 Feb 06:00: MOTU | 14 Feb 16:00: Edubuntu | 15 Feb 01:00: IRC Operators
[09:44] <Seveas> @schedule amsterdam
[09:44] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 13 Feb 13:00: Community Council | 13 Feb 17:00: Forum Council | 13 Feb 21:00: Technical Board | 14 Feb 11:00: MOTU | 14 Feb 21:00: Edubuntu | 15 Feb 06:00: IRC Operators
[11:02] <jsgotangco> @schedule manila
[11:02] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Manila: 13 Feb 20:00: Community Council | 14 Feb 00:00: Forum Council | 14 Feb 04:00: Technical Board | 14 Feb 18:00: MOTU | 15 Feb 04:00: Edubuntu | 15 Feb 13:00: IRC Operators
[12:52] <alex_muntada> @schedule barcelona
[12:52] <alex_muntada> @schedule andorra
[12:52] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Andorra: Current meeting: Community Council | 13 Feb 17:00: Forum Council | 13 Feb 21:00: Technical Board | 14 Feb 11:00: MOTU | 14 Feb 21:00: Edubuntu | 15 Feb 06:00: IRC Operators
[12:53] <Seveas> gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooodmorning :)
[12:53] <Admiral_Chicago> oh it's a healty 6 am here
[12:53] <Admiral_Chicago> morning
[12:53] <jsgotangco> hello
[12:53] <elkbuntu> no, sorry, that's in an hour :
[12:53] <tsmithe> hiya Seveas
[12:54] <tsmithe> hiya Hobbsee
[12:54] <jsgotangco> i must be dreaming, i finally got to attend CC again
[12:54] <jsgotangco> hehe
[12:54] <Seveas> jsgotangco, heh
[12:54] <elkbuntu> jsgotangco, yes, i know. i keep looking to see if im supposed to be counting sheep
[12:54] <Seveas> jsgotangco/elkbuntu: that's actually why this time was picked
[12:55] <elkbuntu> Seveas, :)
[12:55] <jsgotangco> yeah poor us living in the far east and the pacific
[12:55] <jsgotangco> hehe
[12:55] <Seveas> there aren't enough sheep left in .au for elkbuntu to eat^Wcount
[12:55] <amachu> Hi, this is sriramadas (nick: amachu) from Ubuntu Tamil Team
[12:55] <Seveas> hi amachu
[12:55] <Hobbsee> hey tsmithe!
[12:55] <Hobbsee> CC is on now?
[12:55] <tsmithe> heya
[12:55] <Hobbsee> nice
[12:55] <amachu> Seveas: Hi
[12:55] <tsmithe> yeah :)
[12:55] <Seveas> Hobbsee, it's on when the council arrives
[12:55] <elkbuntu> Seveas, wasnt me that ate them, im not so much a fan of lamb.
[12:55] <tsmithe> mmmm lamb
[12:56] <tsmithe> mutton?
[12:56] <Seveas> elkbuntu, shrimps!
[12:56] <elkbuntu> Seveas, scallops!
[12:56] <alex_muntada> amachu: good to see you here, too
[12:56] <elkbuntu> Seveas, we need to get ourselves into that cafeteria again somehow
[12:56] <Seveas> elkbuntu, www.google.com/employment
[12:56] <amachu> alex_muntada: Thank You
[12:56] <elkbuntu> Seveas, im not smart enough :(
[12:57] <effie_jayx> ok.. I just got hungr... brb
[12:57] <jsgotangco> hahaha
[12:57] <Hobbsee> Seveas: of course.  glad to see that it hasnt changed.
[12:57] <elkbuntu> Seveas, and fyi, it's /jobs
[12:57] <Hobbsee> Seveas: 404'd
[12:57] <Hobbsee> ah
[12:59] <jsgotangco> hahahhaa
[12:59] <Seveas> hi lyz
[12:59] <pleia2> hey Seveas
[01:00] <Seveas> The agnda for today is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[01:00] <Seveas> Hopefully the meeting will start soon
[01:00] <Seveas> cjwatson, elmo: ping
[01:01] <amachu> ok
[01:01] <elmo> I'm here
[01:01] <nocturn> Hi guys
[01:01] <Seveas> elmo, welcome!
[01:02] <dinda> Seveas - I'm/ we're here with the Ubuntu-Women's Project
[01:02] <Seveas> Hobbsee, Soon(tm)
[01:02] <Hobbsee> Seveas: how soon?  as in, today?
[01:02] <Hobbsee> hey dinda!
[01:02] <ShankarGanesh> hello there
[01:02] <ShankarGanesh> everybody
[01:02] <Seveas> Hobbsee, as in Soon(tm)
[01:03] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: red cordial?  now there's a good idea...
[01:03] <Hobbsee> Seveas: pathetic.
[01:03] <elkbuntu> well crap.
[01:04] <amachu> ShankarGanesh: hi Shankar Ganesh also represents Ubuntu Tamil Team
[01:04] <Seveas> amachu, is tamilteam on the agenda?
[01:04] <dinda> Seveas - did you see the pics from he pilot?  the snowball one is great of you - imho
[01:04] <mako> greetings
[01:04] <tsmithe> hi mako
[01:04] <Seveas> dinda, I saw them but I still don't agree with the description "boyband"
[01:04] <MikeB-> hey mako
[01:04] <Seveas> hi mako
[01:05] <dinda> lol - that was Billy, I promise
[01:05] <Seveas> were 2/3 there with CC availability
[01:05] <elkbuntu> Seveas in a boyband? this I *got* to see...
[01:05] <Seveas> unless I missed cjwatson somehow
[01:05] <amachu> Seveas: I have applied for Membership
[01:05] <dinda> oh, and I have vidoe of him singing too!
[01:05] <mako> i'm making coffe right now :)
[01:05] <elkbuntu> dinda, ol buddy, ol' pal!
[01:06] <dinda> He did a Great job - really
[01:06] <dinda> now I can't get that song out of my head, "Always look on the bright side of life. .  "
[01:06] <tsmithe> hi Vorian :)
[01:06] <Vorian> hey tsmithe :)
[01:06] <tsmithe> :)
[01:08] <elmo> sabdfl's apparently on his way...
[01:08] <Seveas> elmo, very nice! I thought he was not able to make it
[01:08] <jsgotangco> yay
[01:09] <cjwatson> hi, sorry
[01:09] <Seveas> hi colin
[01:10] <Seveas> nocturn, good to see you made it
[01:10] <Seveas> cjwatson, elmo, mako: shall we get startd once mako has coffee or dowe wait for mark?
[01:11] <nocturn> Seveas: I hope I can stay (I'm at work)
[01:11] <elmo> if colin's happy to be part of the meeting (I thought we'd let him off of CC duties - he did resign after all), we may as well get started.  we have quorum and Mark can catch up
[01:11] <gnomefreak> elmo Seveas cjwatson mako if im not around i would like to say that Admiral_Chicago (freddy) has been doing alot of bugs, wikis, and alot of work with the mozilla-team (im sure a few others will be here to cheer also from that team)
[01:11] <nocturn> So excuse me if I have to leave during the meeting...
[01:11] <Seveas> gnomefreak, noted, thanks!
[01:11] <gnomefreak> :)
[01:12] <Seveas> elmo, ah sorry, didn't know that yet
[01:13] <cjwatson> elmo: I can if need be, but if you're happy with just three for today I'd certainly rather be doing other things
[01:14] <elmo> cjwatson: as a compromise, would you mind puppeting as mark till he arrives?
[01:15] <jsgotangco> :D
[01:15] <cjwatson> sure
[01:15] <mako> sound good then
[01:15] <Seveas> ok, let's get started
[01:15] <Seveas> Dennis Kaarsemaker
[01:15] <Seveas> 
[01:15] <Seveas> Expiring members
[01:15] <Seveas> I took the liberty of extending Paul Sladens membership until the meeting but we should implement a procedure for handling expired members
[01:15] <sabdfl> hi all
[01:15] <Seveas> hi sabdfl !
[01:16] <gnomefreak> hi sabdfl
[01:16] <tsmithe> hello sabdfl
[01:16] <Hobbsee> yay, sabdfl!
[01:16] <nocturn> Hi sabdfl
[01:16] <amachu> hi sabdfl
[01:16] <alex_muntada> hi sabdfl
[01:16] <Seveas> we were about to start the meting with point one on the agenda
[01:16] <Seveas> so, let's repeat that:
[01:16] <mako> cjwatson: lucky :)
[01:16] <Seveas> Dennis Kaarsemaker
[01:16] <Seveas> 
[01:16] <Seveas> Expiring members
[01:16] <Seveas> I took the liberty of extending Paul Sladens membership until the meeting but we should implement a procedure for handling expired members
[01:17] <Seveas> in the mean time Paul Sladen and Brandon Hale have expired (well, their membership), but they are still members via ubuntu-(core-)dev
[01:18] <mako> so i talked to a few LP people in mountainview
[01:18] <mako> about having the pinging and such be automatic
[01:19] <jenda> Hello
[01:19] <sabdfl> that work is underway, iirc, and may already have landed just not deployed
[01:19] <mako> so that folks that were interested in staying members could just reply to something quickly and stay on board
[01:19] <mako> sabdfl: right
[01:19] <jenda> sorry for being late
[01:19] <mako> Seveas: so in the mean time, i guess we just do it by hand
[01:19] <Seveas> mako, ok
[01:19] <alex_muntada> hi jenda
[01:19] <jenda> (could someone please pastebin me the backlog?)
[01:19] <mako> Seveas: someone sends and email and asks if they want to renew their membership
[01:19] <tsmithe> jenda, ok
[01:20] <sabdfl> have pinged salgado who was working on that
[01:20] <Seveas> will renewing involve coming to a meeting?
[01:20] <mako> Seveas: if they do, we renew a year, that's it :)
[01:20] <mako> Seveas: not until they don't respond and we unreg them
[01:20] <Seveas> mako, how about "we're not sure whether you are still contributing" cases
[01:21] <sabdfl> in the case of people who are members via another team, like artwork or edubuntu or kubuntu or -dev, i think we should encourage them just to maintain that angle
[01:21] <mako> Seveas: we trust them to make that distinction on their own
[01:21] <Admiral_Chicago> jenda: http://pastebin.ca/353506 you didn't miss anything
[01:21] <jsgotangco> +1
[01:21] <sabdfl> in other words, minimise the CC interaction, delegating as much as possible
[01:21] <jenda> Admiral_Chicago: thanks - for some reason I panicked and thought it was a different meeting ;)
[01:21] <Seveas> sabdfl, so bhale and sladen can stay on expired because they still are in -dev
[01:21] <mako> Seveas: it's not bulletproof, but if we don't trust folks, we shouldn't make them members in the first place
[01:21] <sabdfl> yes
[01:21] <sladen> it depends whether -member is the representation of agreement with an idealogy (the CoC) or a declaration of consistent commitment
[01:21] <bhale> ah, sorry i am sortof here
[01:22] <sabdfl> i think we could get the expiration email to even describe that explicitly
[01:22] <mako> sabdfl: yes, that's right
[01:22] <mako> Seveas: we can work on that text now, and then whatever we come up with probably be send when LP starts doing it
[01:22] <Seveas> mako, sounds good - shall I work on some words and e-mail it to cc@?
[01:22] <sabdfl> "your direct membership in team foobar will expire in 4 days, but because you are a member in the following teams you will effectively stay active in foobar:
[01:22] <sabdfl>  - bazbar
[01:22] <sabdfl>  - blubar
[01:22] <sabdfl> "
[01:23] <mako> Seveas: sure, or we can put a draft in the wiki
[01:23] <mako> Seveas: whatever works
[01:24] <Seveas> ok, so nothing for that needed in this meeting right now afaics
[01:24] <Seveas> let's move on unless someone objects (respond quickl if you do :))
[01:25] <Seveas> Belinda Lopez
[01:25] <Seveas> 
[01:25] <Seveas> Ubuntu Women's Project - Website admins for the domain have been unresponsive, we have no access to the main site, Project leaders have gone missing as well, we want to move forward but make sure previous leaders/admins have had an opportunity to step down. Should we be considered a Loco Team?
[01:25] <dinda> We're here: dinda pleia2  nurseGirl hobbsee
[01:25] <dinda> Greetings all!
[01:25] <Seveas> hi dinda
[01:26] <sabdfl> hey guys
[01:26] <jsgotangco> wha? she's still not a member all this time?
[01:26] <mako> hola
[01:26] <sabdfl> yes, i think the general process should be similar to a loco team
[01:26] <dinda> lol - next meeting I'll be ready!
[01:26] <Hobbsee> jsgotangco: sorry?
[01:26] <sabdfl> who are the website admins and project leaders?
[01:26] <dinda> Pleia2 can give those names?
[01:27] <pleia2> sabdfl: currently Vidya Ayer is the only one who has access to the website, she also controls the Launchpad team and mailing list
[01:27] <pleia2> she even called herself the project lead, but she pretty much was, she was the one who spearheaded the creation
[01:28] <pleia2> s/even/never
[01:28] <mako> pleia2: and is unresponsive atm?
[01:28] <pleia2> mako: the last I heard from her was late December, I have emailed her twice since then
[01:28] <sabdfl> ok, i have contact details for vidya
[01:28] <mako> yeah, so do i
[01:28] <sabdfl> who would be the new leader?
[01:28] <mako> one of us should send an email and if we don't hear back in a week or so, we'll xfer stuff over
[01:29] <mako> sabdfl: should you do it or should i? i'm happy to right now
[01:29] <sabdfl> lp allows us to add admins to the team
[01:29] <pleia2> I'd volunteer to be the new leader, I've been with the group since almost the beginning
[01:29] <sabdfl> mako: i'll do it, right away, and cc the cc
[01:29] <dindatx> sorry, connection reset
[01:29] <mako> ok.. we can also just add another admin right now
[01:30] <sabdfl> do we have consensus from the folks here that pleia2 would be a good admin for the lp team?
[01:30] <dindatx> definitely
[01:30] <sabdfl> and also website admin if we need to add that?
[01:30] <pleia2> thanks dinda
[01:30] <Hobbsee> from the little i see of it, yep.
[01:30] <sabdfl> i don't know how the website stuff works. elmo?
[01:30] <elkbuntu> i'm in the same situation as hobbsee with this
[01:30] <pleia2> sabdfl: the UW site is on a loco box (if that helps)
[01:30] <pleia2> you'd need my ssh key
[01:30] <elmo> sabdfl: we can recover it and give others access
[01:31] <NurseGirl> I support pleia2, definitely
[01:31] <sabdfl> pleia2: pls privmsg me your email address and full name, and lp username
[01:31] <sabdfl> mako, could you make pleia2 an admin on the ubuntu-women lp team?
[01:32] <sabdfl> if we don't hear from vidya in a week we can make pleia2 the owner, and one of the other women an admin as a backup
[01:32] <mako> sabdfl: sure
[01:32] <sabdfl> mako, if you need lp-admin to do that you should have it
[01:32] <mako> sabdfl: i'll let you know in a second
[01:33] <sabdfl> mako: pleia2 is lyz in lp
[01:33] <pleia2> and just for the record, Vidya did tons of work with this group and her contributions are greatly valued
[01:33] <mako> sabdfl: i do need lp-admin
[01:33] <mako> pleia2: absolutely
[01:34] <dindatx> all of the previous folks did great work, which is why we didn't want to just take over
[01:34] <MikeB-> pleia2: probably a case of real life taking over, hopefully she will be back
[01:34] <pleia2> MikeB-: nod, before I lost contact entirely she was quite busy (since about August I've been trying to get changes made on the site, she's been busy)
[01:36] <dindatx> both Pleia2 and I emailed Jono for guidance and he recommended we come here for help
[01:36] <elmo> mako: I'll do it
[01:37] <sabdfl> mako: sent
[01:37] <Seveas> is the website access being done now as well or will that be waiting unitl Vidya had a chanceto respond to that e-mail?
[01:38] <sabdfl> pleia2: cc'd you, let us know if there's no reply to you in a week
[01:38] <sabdfl> website should wait
[01:38] <pleia2> sabdfl: thank you
[01:38] <sabdfl> in lp we can *add* an admin
[01:38] <Seveas> ok
[01:38] <elmo> I've made pleia2 an admin of u-w in LP now
[01:38] <mako> awesome
[01:39] <dindatx> thanks
[01:39] <pleia2> thanks
[01:39] <Seveas> ok, that's all for the ubuntu-womens team for now I guess
[01:39] <dindatx> no we can move forward following the Loco Team format
[01:39] <dindatx> no = now
[01:39] <Seveas> yup
[01:40] <Seveas> let's hope to see you back as LoCoTeam in one of the next meetings!
[01:40] <dindatx> anything else, Pleia2?
[01:40] <sabdfl> btw, salgado says that we should be sending daily notifications to people who's memberships expire within a week
[01:40] <Seveas> sabdfl, ewwww....
[01:40] <sabdfl> if anyone here did *not* get such a heads-up in thelast few days, please contact salgado to debug
[01:41] <jsgotangco> ohhh
[01:41] <Seveas> that's too spammy to my taste :)
[01:41] <mako> sabdfl: daily notifications mean there is a batch send once a day
[01:41] <jsgotangco> at least we show we care hehe
[01:41] <sabdfl> mako: yes
[01:41] <mako> sabdfl: not you get a single email EVERY DAY after you have expired
[01:41] <sabdfl> not after you expire
[01:41] <sabdfl> in the week before
[01:41] <mako> ok
[01:41] <pleia2> dindatx: there is the mailing list too, but we might want to wait to tackle that with the website access after a week
[01:41] <sabdfl> then you get the "you have expired" mail
[01:41] <sabdfl> then radio silence
[01:42] <Seveas> ok, so we're moving on to locoteams
[01:42] <mako> sounds good
[01:42] <Seveas> Anyone from ubuntu-ve?
[01:42] <effie_jayx> Me
[01:42] <Seveas> Rolando Blanco?
[01:42] <effie_jayx> here is here
[01:42] <rolando-ve> Hi
[01:42] <sabdfl> Seveas: i think this choice was the simplest, feel free to talk with kiko and salgado about other ideas
[01:42] <sabdfl> less spammy ones
[01:43] <Seveas> hi rolando-ve and effie_jayx
[01:43] <mako> ok
[01:43] <effie_jayx> hi all
[01:43] <rolando-ve> Hi Seveas! hi all
[01:43] <effie_jayx> Seveas,  hi :D
[01:43] <Seveas> do you have an english wikipage/websote about ubuntu-ve?
[01:43] <Seveas> I'm afraidI don't speak spanish
[01:44] <effie_jayx> Seveas,  our proposal is in english
[01:44] <Seveas> (and please ignore my bad spelling, I'm feeling a bit ill)
[01:44] <Seveas> effie_jayx, where is it? The CC agenda links to a spanish page
[01:44] <effie_jayx> Seveas,  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VenezuelaTeam/ApprovalApplication
[01:44] <effie_jayx> sorry about that
[01:45] <elkbuntu> C3s4r, is also a member of ubuntu-ve. hola C3s4r :)
[01:46] <Seveas> effie_jayx, how's the collaboration with other locoteams going?
[01:47] <C3s4r> hi elkbuntu :D
[01:47] <effie_jayx> Seveas,  well ... it has been interesting
[01:47] <effie_jayx> this past few months we have helped them get stablished... but
[01:48] <effie_jayx> they are also workigin in gathering more people to use the services...
[01:48] <sabdfl> rolando-ve, effie_jayx: have things settled down with quidam now?
[01:48] <sabdfl> i had mail fromhimrecently asking if the changes had been made
[01:48] <sabdfl> they had, but he couldn't see that on the relevant lp page
[01:49] <effie_jayx> sabdfl,  we have.. and we are working on the three admins to give direction to the team
[01:49] <mako> that's all good to hear
[01:50] <effie_jayx> Seveas,  in teams like ubuntu-do ... the main problem is they have power failiures
[01:50] <effie_jayx> very frequntly... they don't stay online for long
[01:50] <sabdfl> i'm glad those issues straightened out so nicely, well done
[01:50] <effie_jayx> sabdfl,  quidam is a great friend of a friend of mine.. so no harm there
[01:51] <mako> the ve team looks large and active from what i can see, you should be proud :)
[01:51] <effie_jayx> sabdfl, here is really keen to see team he started go somewhere...
[01:51] <effie_jayx> mako,  it has been the collective spirit of various LUGs in my country
[01:51] <Seveas> mako, indeed, the -ve team has been a good example to other latin american teams
[01:51] <mako> awesome :)
[01:52] <effie_jayx> the key has been to be open to freedom and brotherhood
[01:52] <sabdfl> ok, i'm quite happy with the state of this loco team
[01:53] <sabdfl> they've handled one change of leadership well, which is a good sign
[01:53] <effie_jayx> something rolando has always tried to put in  everything
[01:53] <sabdfl> and are organised with a clear plan
[01:53] <sabdfl> so, +1 from me
[01:53] <elmo> +1
[01:53] <mako> +1 form me as well
[01:54] <Seveas> Wel done rolando-ve, effie_jayx, C3s4r and others!
[01:54] <elkbuntu> congrats venezuela :)
[01:54] <Seveas> Congratulations!
[01:54] <effie_jayx> :D
[01:54] <rolando-ve> :D
[01:54] <jatem> :D
[01:54] <Seveas> sabdfl now has the stage for an extra item on the agenda
[01:54] <Sapote> :D
[01:54] <amach1> congrats from Tamil Team also
[01:55] <effie_jayx> Thanks cc for the trust you put in the team
[01:55] <sabdfl> ok, i've taken too long to get this sorted, my apologies to cjwatson and others who have been waiting patiently!
[01:55] <jenda> Congrats effie_jayx and others ;)
[01:55] <sabdfl> it's time to nominate new folks to the CC
[01:55] <effie_jayx> this is not a goal... this is the continuation of the challenge
[01:55] <tsmithe> well done!
[01:55] <ShankarGanesh__> :)
[01:55] <jatem> ;)
[01:55] <sabdfl> we have a much bigger community, and I think it would be good to get representation from some new parts of that community
[01:56] <sabdfl> so i will be nominating some folks from the forums, and other parts of the broad ubuntu project
[01:56] <sabdfl> currently, there are 5 nominations, all of whom have said they are happy to stand for the post
[01:56] <C3s4r> :D
[01:56] <sabdfl>    y daniel holbach
[01:56] <sabdfl>    y matthew east
[01:56] <sabdfl>    y mike basinger
[01:56] <sabdfl>    y corey burger
[01:56] <sabdfl>    y jerome gotangco
[01:57] <Seveas> how many people will be in the new CC? Who of the current CC will stay?
[01:57] <sabdfl> cjwatson will be stepping down from the CC (but standing for the TB iirc)
[01:57] <sabdfl> elmo, mako, and i will stay
[01:57] <Hobbsee> no one from x/kubuntu there.  looks good though
[01:58] <sabdfl> i don't yet know the xubuntu community well enough ( not sure it yet has the scale)
[01:58] <jenda> Hobbsee: Why did I read that as "no one from x/kubuntu there.  looks good"
[01:58] <mako> jenda: :)
[01:58] <sabdfl> would like a kubuntu representative, but haven't yet met the person who is CC-ish from that group, mortly TB-ish folks still
[01:58] <Hobbsee> jenda: er, those statements were supposed to be split :P
[01:58] <gpocentek> the xubuntu community is not large enough to have members in the CC IMO
[01:59] <jenda> How will the election work for this?
[01:59] <mako> for the record, the cc is not supposed to be strictly representative
[01:59] <sabdfl> well, a really good CC candidate would represent all of us
[01:59] <sabdfl> not just a constituency
[01:59] <mako> every member on the CC will be dealing with issues pertaining to the entire project
[01:59] <sabdfl> mako: +1 :-)
[01:59] <jsgotangco> gpocentek: it does not follow strictly though
[01:59] <Hobbsee> sabdfl: you'd probably have to ask the kubuntu community who would fit that.
[01:59] <mako> and so it's important that they be know and respected by folks in all parts
[01:59] <sabdfl> Hobbsee: i've gone through quite a process to put this list together
[02:00] <sabdfl> would really like 2 more names, and am open to suggestions today
[02:00] <Hobbsee> sabdfl: of course, wasnt suggesting that you hadnt :)
[02:00] <sabdfl> people should have made an impact outside of a particular group
[02:00] <mako> Hobbsee: the idea would be that if there were additional names, it would be an election
[02:00] <sabdfl> anyhow the suggestion is that we should vote and the top n-2 out of n should get a seat on the CC
[02:01] <sabdfl> that way, there is some real competitive position
[02:01] <sabdfl> and we have at least 2 candidates for the next round to start with :-)
[02:01] <Seveas> wouldn't that make the CC rather large?
[02:01] <sabdfl> well
[02:01] <Seveas> ah, next round :)
[02:01] <sabdfl> it would make it 6
[02:01] <sabdfl> but we want to have some rotation
[02:01] <sabdfl> i would like to cover more timezones
[02:01] <Seveas> \o/
[02:01] <sabdfl> and have more processes that involve just one or two cc members
[02:01] <sabdfl> so we can respond to regional issues without a full meeting
[02:02] <sabdfl> and have quorum at meetings in all timezones without having to ask mako or an aussie to be up at 4 am
[02:02] <mako> sabdfl: 8 by my count with the current list
[02:02] <sabdfl> mako: not if we take the top 3 of 5
[02:02] <mako> ah, right
[02:02] <mako> in any case, i'm all for a larger cc
[02:02] <mako> it will allow us to be more active as a group
[02:02] <sabdfl> we will do the same with the TB
[02:03] <sabdfl> relatively few things require close-to-consensus
[02:03] <sabdfl> binary drivers....
[02:03] <sabdfl> tough decisions
[02:03] <sabdfl> most things can be done with quorum
[02:03] <mako> we're all stretched thin.. but with more people we can at least be broad and thin ::)
[02:03] <sabdfl> which we should try to keep attainable in all timezones without too much difficulty
[02:03] <Seveas> I'm trying to think of people who have been around long enough and made an impact
[02:04] <Seveas> the current list is pretty good
[02:05] <Seveas> for how long will they be on the council? 2 years?
[02:05] <sabdfl> yes
[02:05] <sabdfl> with the MC we nominated some for 1, some for 2, to get the rotation
[02:05] <sabdfl> but here i think we want broader representation
[02:06] <Seveas> MC?
[02:06] <sabdfl> motu council
[02:06] <Seveas> ah
[02:06] <sabdfl> dholbach is nominated for both
[02:07] <sabdfl> ok, let's go with this list
[02:07] <mako> i'm glad to hear that there's no objections :)
[02:07] <sabdfl> ok, i will verify that LP polls allow us to select the top m of n options
[02:07] <mako> hard work and clean living pays off
[02:08] <sabdfl> perhaps some condorcet variation has been implemented
[02:08] <sabdfl> hopefully there are not too many bugs!
[02:08] <Seveas> sabdfl, us devotee *evil grin*
[02:08] <Seveas> s/us/use/
[02:08] <mako> sabdfl: if it isn't, we should just go with approval voting
[02:09] <sabdfl> mako: not sure how we select top "top 3 of 5" if we just have approval voting?
[02:09] <jsgotangco> in ruby? heh
[02:09] <sabdfl> those who get the most votes?
[02:09] <Seveas> nocturn, if you're still here: you're up after this so please prepare your introduction (all other member candidates, also be prepared)
[02:09] <mako> sabdfl: you count up the approvals
[02:09] <jenda> sabdfl: most approvals
[02:09] <sabdfl> ok
[02:10] <mako> sabdfl: it's the easiest method to implement that usually selects the same as preferential systems
[02:10] <sabdfl> right
[02:10] <nocturn> Ok Seveas
[02:10] <sabdfl> i think we can do that
[02:10] <sabdfl> may need some behind the scenes data analysis
[02:10] <sabdfl> ok, done
[02:10] <sabdfl> thanks to those candidates for standing
[02:10] <sabdfl> voting will run from monday, for two weeks, roughly, unless naybody has objections to that?
[02:11] <MikeB-> sabdfl: thank you
[02:11] <sabdfl> all ubuntu-members are eligible to vote
[02:11] <jenda> mako: just for clarification, would that mean everyone can approve or disapprove of each of the 5 candidates?
[02:11] <jenda> sabdfl: and would there be a possibility to vote outside that period? eg. by email
[02:12] <jenda> (because I can't)
[02:12] <mako> jenda: i wouldn't say disapprove, but yes
[02:12] <mako> jenda: that's the interface
[02:12] <mako> but sine most people will probably approval candidates
[02:12] <sabdfl> jenda: you can't?
[02:12] <mako> a prefential system would probably be, er, preferred
[02:12] <jenda> I'll be on the road for a month
[02:13] <mako> jenda: find an internet cafe?
[02:13] <MikeB-> sabdfl,: I can remain on the FC is I serve on the CC?
[02:13] <jenda> mako: of course, I can try, but I'd greatly prefer if I could email my votes before hand :) But I don't want to disrupt the meeting with this.
[02:14] <elmo> MikeB-: absolutely
[02:15] <posingaspopular> jenda: good luck to you on your travels
[02:16] <jenda> (thank you, I'll be meeting the indian loco team ;))
[02:16] <sabdfl> MikeB-: certainly
[02:16] <Seveas> any more outstanding issues with the CC votes?
[02:16] <mako> MikeB-: i hope you choose to :)
[02:16] <posingaspopular> India(n)?
[02:16] <sabdfl> ok
[02:16] <sabdfl> next?
[02:16] <Seveas> member candidates!
[02:16] <amach1> jenda: do not forget to meet us too.. we too are from india
[02:16] <Seveas> nocturn, you're up
[02:16] <nocturn> Hi all
[02:17] <nocturn> I'm nocturn, candidate for Ubuntu membership.
[02:17] <nocturn> I have been a moderator on Ubuntuforums for 1,5 years now if I remember correctly
[02:17] <nocturn> So, on that basis, I would like to apply
[02:18] <Seveas> MikeB- (or any other forums folks), can you vouch for nocturn?
[02:18] <MikeB-> nocturn is a fantastic forums mod
[02:18] <Vorian> I am here to cheer for nocturn.  He is a wonderful staff member on Ubuntu Forums, and is extremely helpful to all.
[02:18] <jenda> yes, nocturn has been a very good mod :)
[02:18] <MikeB-> +1 from me
[02:19] <sabdfl> ok, +1 from me. i think any moderator in good standing for more than 3 months would qualify
[02:19] <Seveas> hmm, last time I looked at the ubuntuforums-staff teampage it had much less members. Great improvement there
[02:19] <sabdfl> nocturn: that said, do you have the relevant wiki page?
[02:19] <nocturn> sabdfl: you mean about me?
[02:19] <jenda> Seveas: there are yet even a few who aren't on the LP page yet.
[02:19] <MikeB-> very helpful and level headed when helping people
[02:20] <sabdfl> nocturn: yes, we usually expect new members to have a wiki page describing their work to date and plans in ubuntu
[02:20] <nocturn> My wiki page is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Nocturn
[02:21] <sabdfl> that's a bit thin!
[02:21] <mako> so usually i'd like to see a lot more in terms of wiki pages
[02:21] <sabdfl> who has a good example?
[02:21] <nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RichardJohnson :)
[02:21] <MikeB-> seveas: I have been updating the ubuntuforums-team page
[02:22] <mako> i'm happy to proceed in this particular case because we've explicitly said that we would give the benefit of the doubt to long-time forums moderators
[02:22] <ogra> sabdfl, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DanielRobitaille
[02:22] <nocturn> Thanks Mako
[02:22] <nixternal> sabdfl: yours isn't a good example? ;)
[02:22] <mako> RichardJohnson's is pretty good :)
[02:23] <nixternal> yay :)
[02:23] <jsgotangco> goodness
[02:23] <carlos> mako: but isn't that duplicating most of the info in launchpad?
[02:23] <mako> carlos: some of it, yes :)
[02:23] <carlos> I mean... mine doesn't have all that information because most of it is already tracked there...
[02:23] <mako> yes, that makes sense
[02:23] <mako> although it's nice to highly particular things taht show up in launchpad that you are proud of
[02:24] <elkbuntu> so long as the info is somewhere
[02:24] <ogra> well nixternal os a doc guy ... they love to play with layouts, you know ;)
[02:24] <carlos> mako: ok
[02:24] <nixternal> thanks ogra, just set me out :)
[02:24] <ogra> ;)
[02:24] <ogra> nixternal, your page is great :)
[02:24] <sabdfl> nocturn: can you see the sort of thing we're looking for?
[02:25] <jenda> nixternal: how about making it into a userpage template, hmm?
[02:25] <sabdfl> mikeb, could you ask other forums staff who look for explicit membership to follow those examples?
[02:25] <nocturn> sabdfl: I see
[02:25] <sabdfl> MikeB-: ^^
[02:25] <ShankarGanesh> NIXTERNAL: your blog really rocks!!!
[02:25] <MikeB-> sabdfl: sure
[02:25] <sabdfl> in this case, happy to +1 give the longstanding work done by nocturnal, and this is the first case
[02:26] <ogra> MikeB-, nice quote on planet btw :)
[02:26] <sabdfl> but in future we'll ask for that web page to be something other people can read and gain some real insight into the person
[02:26] <nocturn> sabdfl: I'll update it soon.  I followed an example of another mode
[02:26] <MikeB-> orga: thanks
[02:26] <nocturn> s/mode/mod
[02:26] <sabdfl> ok
[02:27] <sabdfl> elmo?
[02:27] <elmo> +1
[02:27] <mako> nocturn: awesome, thanks :)
[02:27] <mako> nocturn: welcome!
[02:27] <nocturn> Thanks guys!
[02:27] <Vorian> yay nocturn !!!!
[02:27] <MikeB-> congrats
[02:28] <mako> whose next?
[02:28] <Seveas> \o/
[02:28] <Seveas> amach1, you're up
[02:28] <amach1> nocturn: congrats
[02:28] <amach1> hi all
[02:28] <amach1> I am Sri Ramadoss and is seeking for Ubuntu Membership.
[02:28] <amach1> I am currently the contact person of Ubuntu Tamil LoCo Team.
[02:28] <amach1> We are from Tamil Nadu, India. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/sriramadas is my wiki page giving a glimpse about my contributions.
[02:29] <ShankarGanesh> I know amach1 and he's been my friend for just a month. He's introduced me to a lot of things about ubuntu localisation
[02:29] <amach1> I have been managing Ubuntu Tamil Team for the past eight months.
[02:29] <amach1> I have here with me Shankar Ganesh, who joined us recently and currently part of our student wing.
[02:29] <ShankarGanesh> so, +1 for Ramadoss (amach1) from me
[02:30] <ShankarGanesh> He's organised a good group with support from organisations here who've been with him supporting him financially
[02:30] <elkbuntu> amach1, is active and enthusiastic with LoCo stuff, and reguarly contributes to discussions between LoCos
[02:30] <ShankarGanesh> yeah, he does
[02:31] <sabdfl> amach1: very good wiki page - thank you!
[02:31] <sabdfl> gives me a clear idea what you are doing
[02:31] <sabdfl> can you tell me - i'm ignorant - what's the relationship between Tamil Nadu and the Tamil's of Sri Lanka?
[02:31] <amach1> sabdfl: thank u
[02:31] <mako> Seveas, sabdfl, elmo: is someonbody approving these as we go?
[02:31] <amach1> sabdfl: we work together in Translation
[02:31] <Seveas> mako, I'll do that
[02:32] <sabdfl> mako: i have the page up, just haven't approved any.. ok thanks seveas
[02:32] <amach1> sabdfl: as we both share same common mother tongue
[02:33] <amach1> sabdfl: Tamil is one of the official Language in India as well as Sri Lanka
[02:33] <sabdfl> ok, and is there a loco team there?
[02:33] <Seveas> nocturn, please join the ubuntumembers team on launchpad
[02:33] <amach1> sabdfl: i hope there is a Sri Lankan Team
[02:33] <Seveas> (other member candidates who have not done that yet: please do so as well)
[02:33] <nocturn> Seveas: OK
[02:34] <amach1> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SriLankanTeam
[02:34] <elkbuntu> there is a sri lankan team, but i believe it's dormant at the moment
[02:35] <sabdfl> ok, i'm happy with amach1 for membership on the back of his role in the tamil nadu loco team
[02:35] <amach1> sabdfl: thank you
[02:35] <sabdfl> i'd be thrilled to hear that the ubuntu sri lankan tamil / non-tamil folks had strong collaboration and cooperation in place
[02:35] <nocturn> Seveas: done
[02:35] <sabdfl> so let me know if there's movement on that front
[02:36] <amach1> sabdfl: sure
[02:36] <sabdfl> ok, great work. elmo? mako?
[02:36] <elmo> +1
[02:37] <mako> +1 from me as well
[02:37] <Seveas> congratulations amach1!
[02:37] <MikeB-> congrats
[02:37] <mako> amach1: i was reading through your stuff.. lots of it :)
[02:38] <Seveas> meatballhat (Dan Buch), you're up
[02:38] <amach1> Seveas: Thank You everyone
[02:38] <meatballhat> Hello! My name is Dan Buch and here's my profile: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DanBuch  Most of the work that I do can be seen here http://diy.devubuntu.com
[02:38] <meatballhat> My primary focus is advocacy in every way possible, which is what led me to the Marketing Team.  I continually push for adoption of FOSS at my place of work, and I've fallen into the habit of steering every conversation possible into the subject of Ubuntu.
[02:38] <meatballhat> In the long term, I would like to push for adoption of Ubuntu throughout the public sector, especially as my state has had a particularly spotty recent history with regard to fiscal responsibility.  With the help of my fellow LoCo Team members, I am confident that a significant Ubuntu presence in Ohio is not only possible but inevitable.
[02:38] <meatballhat> To sum it up:  I would like to see Bug #1's bug head on a bug pike.<!--end canned speech -->
[02:38] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 1 in ichthux "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
[02:38] <jenda> Dan has been an amazing help in both creation and design/planning of diy.devubuntu.com . He is a very dedicated Ubuntero and Ubuntu would be half without him :)
[02:39] <Vorian> Dan has been instrumental in the work that has been done to make the start up of the Ohio LoCo team such a success to this point.  With Dans help, we have become the largest LoCo team in the United States, with over 75 members and growing.
[02:39] <Vorian> Dan's vision on spreading Ubuntu has inspired many on our team to become very active ubuntero's.
[02:39] <Vorian> He has been very determined to help our LoCo team become an approved team.
[02:39] <Vorian> Besides all that, Dan Buch is a perfect gentleman.
[02:39] <jenda> hehe
[02:39] <jacobmp92> Dan has helped out a ton in our LoCo team, subbing for meetings, controlling sub-teams, etc
[02:39] <jenda> He hasn't bribed me, I dunno about vorian, though.
[02:39] <jacobmp92> he has recruited a ton of members
[02:41] <tsmithe> haha
[02:42] <jacobmp92> (i thought my connection died from the snow)
[02:42] <tsmithe> meatballhat's application was just too good. everyone's lost for words!
[02:42] <Seveas> it's always like this after someone introduces himself: people are reading wikipages etc.
[02:42] <Seveas> long silence means lots of good things to read, so is generally a good sign
[02:43] <jsgotangco> nice pic too
[02:43] <meatballhat> jsgotangco: much thanks :)
[02:43] <Seveas> are there other ohio folks here to cheer?
[02:43] <jsgotangco> although i admit this is the first time i saw a wedding pic in the wiki, nor to a distro one at that
[02:43] <jsgotangco> :D
[02:44] <nixternal> lol
[02:44] <meatballhat> Seveas: many of our members are in school right now despite the snow  :)
[02:44] <Seveas> heh
[02:44] <jacobmp92> meatballhat: not here, im out from snow :)
[02:44] <Vorian> Seveas, the ones who are already cheered :)
[02:47] <sabdfl> meatballhat: *great* wiki page!
[02:47] <mako> meatballhat: yes, your work on the team seems really great
[02:47] <meatballhat> sabdfl: thank you oh so much ... it's good to finally meet you in, er, person  :)
[02:47] <meatballhat> mako: thank you :)
[02:47] <nocturn> I have to leave now guys, I'll leave my client logging
[02:48] <mako> nocturn: sounds gsood, thanks for coming
[02:48] <nocturn> Thanks Mako
[02:48] <sabdfl> meatballhat: tell me about diy marketing and the loco teams
[02:48] <sabdfl> how can we coordinate that relationship
[02:48] <sabdfl> so the loco teams receive a steady stream of ideas, materials, etc?
[02:49] <meatballhat> we've been holding off to get the site in a better state of readiness, mostly
[02:49] <sabdfl> hey ryan
[02:49] <ubuntugeek> hello
[02:49] <meatballhat> there are so many materials out there
[02:49] <jenda> oi, ubuntugeek
[02:49] <MikeB-> hey ubuntugeek
[02:49] <SD-Plissken> Hello  ubuntugeek.
[02:49] <ubuntugeek> hey
[02:49] <meatballhat> most of the work we need to do is simply catologing and such
[02:50] <sabdfl> ok
[02:50] <sabdfl> do you think it would be possible to have a "marketing top of the week"?
[02:50] <mako> sabdfl and ubuntugeek and i have been talking about the new cc candidates and people on the cc and member councils, he's got some good poitns we should raise after we're done processing new member candidates
[02:50] <sabdfl> with some materials etc?
[02:50] <sabdfl> which loco's could translate and use?
[02:51] <jenda> (/me notes that a click on diy.devubuntu.com will show the four main categories of items the project will categorize...)
[02:51] <sabdfl> i think over a year it would be good to take the locos through a cycle of building up media contacts, for example
[02:51] <meatballhat> sabdfl: absolutely, yes ... we're working to make it easier for volunteers to jump in and contribute within the Branding and Trademark guidelines
[02:51] <sabdfl> and then feed thema steady stream of news or event related information
[02:51] <sabdfl> ok
[02:51] <sabdfl> +1 from me for meatballhat on the back of amazing work with the diy marketing effort
[02:52] <mako> +1 for me.. in total agreement
[02:52] <sabdfl> meatballhat: have you chatted with jono bacon much?
[02:52] <meatballhat> sabdfl: thank you!!  :D
[02:52] <sabdfl> elmo?
[02:52] <meatballhat> not much yet, no
[02:52] <elmo> +1
[02:52] <meatballhat> I'd like to talk to him a lot more, though :)
[02:53] <Vorian> congrats meatballhat !!!!
[02:53] <Seveas> woohoo
[02:53] <jenda> Congratulations Dan :)
[02:53] <Seveas> tsmithe, you're up
[02:53] <tsmithe> Hi. I'm Toby Smithe, a student at the Judd School in Tonbridge. I've been using Ubuntu as my main system for just over one year now, and various other Linux distributions on and off since about 2001. During my period of consistent Ubuntu exposure, my involvement has increased exponentially. I started off helping out on the forums, reporting off, and am now packaging packaging, learning Python, and triaging those bugs that once upon a time
[02:53] <tsmithe> I would have been filing.
[02:53] <tsmithe> I have recently become very involved in the Ubuntu Studio project, and have been packaging various softwares for that, with alsa-firmware, alsa-tools, wired and enblend sitting on REVU; and having created a product in Launchpad, with the Cinelerra-CV upstream SVN being imported, so that we can get to work with fixing licence issues on the way to inclusion in Universe. I have packaged my own application to change the default sound card,  as
[02:53] <meatballhat> Thank you to everyone!  :)
[02:53] <tsmithe> oundconf-gtk, and this is now in Feisty Universe. I wrote it as a result of not being able to find an applet like it in XFCE, which I was using at the time.
[02:53] <tsmithe> You may have noticed above a number of sound-related packages. I was in the right place at the right time to get involved with helping to maintain ALSA; crimsun and the Ubuntu Studio team wanted packaging alsa-firmware, and I wanted to learn how to do the same. I picked up the package, and crimsun walked me through it. I am now in the process of creating a kernel patch for ac97 regressions since Edgy, and have been triaging various ALSA bu
[02:53] <tsmithe> gs. I would like my involvement with ALSA and UbuntuStudio to continue, and UbuntuStudio to be a smash hit (however high an expectation this may be).
[02:53] <tsmithe> hmm
[02:53] <tsmithe> that was more than it looked earlier :S
[02:53] <sabdfl> meatballhat: bend his ear for a while about diy-marketing + loco's
[02:54] <sabdfl> i think there's a lot of low-hanging fruit that just needs a well organised wiki page and a weekly mail
[02:54] <sabdfl> tsmithe: wiki page?
[02:54] <AstralJava> Vouching for tsmithe here, I'm also in the ubuntustudio team and he's shown a superb effort in Making It Happen(tm). I might even dare to say we'd be in trouble had he not been with us. :)
[02:55] <tsmithe> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TobySmithe
[02:55] <MikeB-> I have to go, and get my son ready for school (7:00 AM here).
[02:55] <tsmithe> sabdfl, ^^ :)
[02:55] <tsmithe> thanks AstralJava
[02:55] <_MMA_> Im cheering for tsmithe. He has been a great help with the Ubuntu Studio project. Without him as a packager we would not have progressed as far as we have. He has been very instrumental in getting the project better connected with Launchpad and Bazaar as well.
[02:55] <PriceChild> tsmithe's been very helpful drafting the "Forum Ambassadors" spec which we're hopefully presenting to the FC in a couple of hours. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumAmbassadors
[02:55] <mako> MikeB-: thanks for coming, we should follow up afterwards
[02:55] <tsmithe> _MMA_ and PriceChild, thanks a lot
[02:55] <Admiral_Chicago> I've also seen tsmithe working on the Ubuntu Studio project, he is a solid member and I was glad to see him apply. His packaging has been very helpful
[02:55] <MikeB-> mako: i had someone wanted me to ask you if you ever approved the member from last month?
[02:55] <tsmithe> Admiral_Chicago, cheers :)
[02:56] <Seveas> MikeB-, that happened earlier today
[02:56] <jenda> Toby has been a good community member, from what I've seen.
[02:56] <tsmithe> jenda, hehe :)
[02:56] <Vorian> I here to cheer for tsmithe too, very helpful!
[02:56] <mako> MikeB-: i did, yes
[02:56] <tsmithe> thank you Vorian
[02:56] <MikeB-> mako:)
[02:58] <Seveas> sabdfl/elmo/mako: I have to go now, will do launchpad/wiki/summary duty later today. Just wanted to add my \o/ for tsmithe before I leave
[02:58] <tsmithe> thanks Seveas :)
[02:59] <Seveas> sabdfl/elmo/mako: please set the time and date for the next meeting at the end of this one. On the 27th, the TB has #ubuntu-meeting from 21:00 to 23:00, the rest of the day it's free
[02:59] <sabdfl> thanks Seveas
[03:00] <mako> Seveas: sounds good
[03:00] <tsmithe> hi Seeker` :)
[03:00] <mako> Seveas: thanks again
[03:00] <jsgotangco> ok 5 more
[03:00] <mako> PriceChild, tsmithe: wow, that's great! thanks for helding out on that
[03:00] <sabdfl> tsmithe: where are you based? in the UK?
[03:00] <tsmithe> mako, i'll be very happen to see it happen
[03:01] <tsmithe> sabdfl, yeeah
[03:01] <mako> tsmithe: i'm impressed with the range of projects you've helped out on in the community
[03:01] <tsmithe> mako, thanks :)
[03:01] <tsmithe> i like to do my bit :)
[03:01] <tsmithe> i get all this for free, kinda feel obliged to give back to it
[03:02] <Vorian> nicely put tsmithe :)
[03:02] <tsmithe> ;)
[03:03] <sabdfl> +1 from me on the back of toby's excellent work in the forums and ubuntustudio
[03:03] <sabdfl> just finishing reading some of the links on your wiki page
[03:03] <tsmithe> thank you, sabdfl
[03:03] <sabdfl> really superb work!
[03:03] <sabdfl> impressed you got a response from becta
[03:03] <tsmithe> sabdfl, haha - it took some work, though
[03:03] <sabdfl> keep up the pressure :-)
[03:03] <tsmithe> i'll try
[03:04] <mako> absolutey, +1 form me
[03:04] <tsmithe> yay!
[03:04] <elmo> +1
[03:04] <tsmithe> danke, elmo
[03:06] <sabdfl> welcome aboard!
[03:06] <sabdfl> who's up next
[03:06] <_MMA_> Nice tsmithe. ;)
[03:06] <tsmithe> thanks ever so much, everyone :D
[03:06] <mako> alright
[03:07] <Vorian> congrats tsmithe  !!!! porc::inca
[03:07] <mako> stgraber: you're up
[03:07] <tsmithe> :dito::love:
[03:07] <mako> alright, we can move on
[03:08] <mako> tmarble: you're up
[03:08] <tsmithe> oh - and i may have to leave soon, but i want to give a big cheer for Admiral_Chicago's application later
[03:08] <tmarble> ok, thanks
[03:08] <mako> maybe sooner rather than later :)
[03:08] <tmarble> Hello all, I'm Tom Marble and I champion Ubuntu within Sun Microsystems ==> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TomMarble
[03:08] <tmarble> I promote the choice of Ubuntu with Sun Servers with engineering and the field sales organization
[03:08] <tmarble> I work with fabbione on the SPARC architecture team
[03:08] <tmarble> And I provide technical guidance to implement our partnering strategy of making Sun's Free Software (and soon-to-be-Free-Software) available in Ubuntu
[03:08] <tmarble> I have collaborated with doko on sun-java5 and sun-java6
[03:08] <tmarble> At the moment I am working with our NetBeans (IDE) and GlassFish (application server) teams to make this software available for Feisty
[03:09] <mako> fabbione i believe is back to cheer for tmarble, although he pasted some stuff to me earlier
[03:09] <fabbione> yeah i am here
[03:09] <fabbione> I fully support Tom Marble to be an Ubuntu memember. He did several non trivial things for the sparc port that are not immediatly noticeable if not because now we can just run on it without problems. He is extremely pro-active in testing sparc and feeding info back to get the stuff done as they should. His contribution has/is relevant. I can't personally speak for his Java packaging skills but his name didn't pass unnoticed in -changes.
[03:09] <fabbione> He is definetely a +1 for our community.
[03:10] <doko> we have to invent the MOTM for tmarble (uploading only to multiverse ;)
[03:10] <mako> tmarble: i believe we met in MTV, no?
[03:10] <dholbach> (I reviewed another package of his and he did very thorough work, was quick to reply back and easy to work with.)
[03:10] <tmarble> mako, yes.. i really enjoyed meeting many people at UDS -- from Ubuntu and the community
[03:11] <sabdfl> awesome wiki page tom
[03:11] <tmarble> sabdfl, spasibo!
[03:11] <mako> yes yes, loads of good stuff
[03:11] <doko> supporting tmarble, we need more people involved with java in the distro. +1
[03:11] <sabdfl> i have worked with tmarble and been really impressed with how seriously he takes community issues, dynamics and processes
[03:11] <sabdfl> the fact that he's here reflects that
[03:11] <mako> tmarble: so is working on ubuntu stuff part of your job?
[03:12] <mako> i assume yes
[03:12] <tmarble> mako, this is a very interesting question -- the short answer is YES (stay tuned for the longer answer ;)
[03:12] <mako> i am personally really happy to see people working on ubuntu as parrt of their job and not working at canonical.. i think that's a really important step for our community
[03:13] <mako> i know it's happened in other places too, but it's great to see it sort of end in membership
[03:14] <mako> in the interest of moving forward, i'm happy to give my +1
[03:14] <tmarble> mako, we see the partnership with Ubuntu as extraordinarily strategic.... it's mutually beneficial at many levels... obviously we benefit from -- as our CEO says -- hardware revenue from those users who want GNU/Linux and our eco-friendly server technology
[03:14] <sabdfl> tmarble: are you already a MOTU, or is that your next port of call?
[03:15] <elmo> +1 from me, very glad to see Tom becoming an Ubuntu member, I've enjoyed working with him on the java licensing stuff and seeing him at UDS
[03:15] <tmarble> more importantly our company realizes the importance of Free Software to developer and user adoption of technology generally --> and this is championed by webink who has had an enormous impact on our direction
[03:16] <tmarble> sabdfl, i am following the process to become MOTU (MOTM?) to the best of my ability, as indicated by dholbach  (currently not MOTU)
[03:16] <sabdfl> ok. +1 from me for membership (and thanks for coming here explicitly)
[03:16] <sabdfl> also, fwiw, +1 from me for MOTU membership, feel free to convey that to dholbach &co
[03:16] <dholbach> tmarble: it'd be great to have you in the team :)
[03:16] <tmarble> I have one mini package in REVU at the moment as a technical study (add-apt-key) (no advocators :(
[03:16] <mako> carlos: you're up
[03:16] <carlos> Hi, My name is Carlos Perell Marn and I would like to become an Ubuntu member.
[03:17] <carlos> I'm a Launchpad developer working for Canonical Ltd. and my main task is to provide infrastructure to handle internationalisation in Ubuntu, including language packs exports.
[03:17] <carlos> I'm also current Spanish translation team coordinator, but I'm in the process to move this role to someone else in the team as I don't have much time to translate and handle the tasks required as the coordinator.
[03:17] <carlos> As part of my work I have a lot of interaction with Ubuntu translators and try to help them in the best way to improve its language support in Ubuntu.
[03:17] <dholbach> tmarble: i'll take another look at it
[03:17] <carlos> After more than 2 years and a half improving Ubuntu localisation, I think is a good time to get a bit more involved in Ubuntu process and that's why I would like to be accepted as an Ubuntu member.
[03:17] <carlos> You can see my brief wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CarlosPerelloMarin and my Launchpad account at https://launchpad.net/~carlos
[03:17] <tmarble> and I have one of our "real" packages : NetBeans in REVU -- which we are working aggressively on preparing for multiverse
[03:17] <jsgotangco> whoa
[03:17] <sabdfl> carlos! very happyto see you here :-)
[03:18] <carlos> sabdfl: I thought it was time to do it ;-)
[03:18] <sabdfl> cheers tmarble
[03:18] <mako> carlos: your wikipage is also a little thin ;)
[03:18] <sabdfl> welcome aboard
[03:18] <sabdfl> his lp account is pretty phat, though!
[03:18] <carlos> mako: yeah, I noticed that after the first membership review...
[03:19] <mako> yes, that's very very true... but you have the advantage of having all of us all be extremely familiar with you :)
[03:19] <carlos> mako: but didn't have time in this hour to 'fix' that :-(
[03:19] <sabdfl> carlos: what are the biggest community requests for rosetta these days?
[03:19] <carlos> sabdfl: more translation/traslators review oriented tools
[03:21] <carlos> we already added some improvements to the translation review process which seems is exactly what our translators wanted
[03:22] <mako> carlos: i remember talking to you about membership like 2 years ago :)
[03:22] <mako> carlos: i'm glad you've followed through and have appreciated your community contributions during the intervening period
[03:23] <mako> this is sort of one of those "you're not a member already?" situations so i'm happy with a +1 from me
[03:24] <carlos> mako: well, I guess it was more a problem of me being lazy to do this step than other thing...
[03:24] <sabdfl> +1 from me on the back of carlos' long dedication to translation in ubuntu and gnome
[03:24] <elmo> +1
[03:25] <mako> alright then
[03:25] <mako> ife, the former Kawashima Kiko, is a member of the Japanese imperial family. She is the first-born granddaughter of Emperor Akihito and Empress Michiko and is currently a third-year student at Gakushuin Girls' Junior High School in Tokyo.
[03:25] <mako> sorry
[03:25] <mako> bad paste
[03:25] <mako> lionel:
[03:25] <mako> that was wikipedia :)
[03:25] <lionel> Hi all
[03:26] <carlos> mako: ;-)
[03:26] <mako> someone else name mako who is princess in japan
[03:26] <carlos> thank you guys!
[03:26] <lionel> I'm Lionel Porcheron from France. I work as a system administrator in a small compagny. I am a Ubuntu user since Hoary, and I sarted to contribute during the Dapper cycle: I started packaging, bug triaging, and writing some documentation. I am also one of the fren
[03:26] <lionel> ch translator of the Ubuntu Weekly News.
[03:26] <lionel> Today, I am a contributor to Universe: I do merge/sync, bug fixes and packaging. I also plan to enhance server guide before Feisty string freeze (based on my Wiki contributions).
[03:26] <lionel> You can find the details of my contributions on my wiki page.
[03:26] <lionel> LP: https://launchpad.net/~lionel.porcheron
[03:26] <sabdfl> i will personally congratulate kiko on his sex change and newfound nobility
[03:26] <lionel> Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LionelPorcheron
[03:26] <jsgotangco> lol
[03:27] <mako> sabdfl: wait, when was kiko not a princess?
[03:27] <sabdfl> well. now you mention it. that hair, with a tiara, would work
[03:28] <elkbuntu> mako, you've always been a princess in our eyes :)
[03:28] <mako> i think this meeting is officially too long :)
[03:28] <sabdfl> lionel: how is the MOTU process working for you? any suggestions or comments?
[03:28] <nixternal> 1 more after lionel then it is miller time
[03:28] <mako> sorry lionel :)
[03:29] <lionel> mako: no pb :)
[03:29] <sabdfl> mako: i have a call in 30 so let's shoot to be done by then
[03:29] <lionel> sabdfl: I am planning to apply for MOTU in few week/months
[03:32] <sabdfl> lionel: but are you finding that community helpful, and responsive?
[03:32] <lionel> sabdfl: yes, really !
[03:32] <sabdfl> ok
[03:33] <sabdfl> i'm happy to +1 on the basis of packaging and documentation contributions, and also UWN translation
[03:33] <lionel> My current sponsors (crimsun, geser, Adri200) are reallyhelpfull and applied patch in a few ours
[03:33] <sabdfl> UWN combined with a DIY marketing tip of the week would be amazing...
[03:33] <sabdfl> cool!
[03:33] <mako> yes, i'm happy with +1 as well
[03:33] <elmo> +1
[03:34] <sabdfl> welcomeaboard, lionel!
[03:34] <lionel> tanks a lot !
[03:34] <sabdfl> drum roll...
[03:34] <nixternal> sabdfl, mako, elmo, Seveas: I sent an email in about Admiral_Chicago, but since it didn't kick off at 06:00 Chicago Standard Time, I am here :)
[03:34] <Admiral_Chicago> sabdfl: you drum rolling for me?
[03:35] <nixternal> you wouldn't be so lucky :)
[03:35] <Admiral_Chicago> a man can wish nixternal. Should I begin?
[03:35] <nixternal> wait for the Dr. Mako to call you in :)
[03:36] <elkbuntu> nixternal, isnt that princess mako?
[03:36] <zakame> hahaha
[03:36] <mako> hold up
[03:36] <mako> Admiral_Chicago: you're up
[03:36] <Admiral_Chicago> I am Freddy Martinez, I work heavily in the Mozilla Team and have been working with structuring our team since the very beginning. A major component of my work with the team is new team member education, wiki structure, and general bug work.
[03:37] <Admiral_Chicago> I work very closely with the Chicago LoCo, event planning, keeping the team running smoothly, and advocacy. I also have worked on things like UWN and spend as much time as possible helping users in #kubuntu and other channels on IRC.
[03:37] <Admiral_Chicago> In the future I would like to learn packaging, documentation, and work on migration tools to make new users more comfortable with Ubuntu. More information can be found https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreddyMartinez and https://launchpad.net/~freddymartinez9.
[03:37] <mako> nixternal: i got the email, IIRC
[03:38] <AlexLatchford> I would like to cheer Admiral_Chicago, he has been a vital part of the ongoing effort into the Mozilla Team, helping to squash loads of bugs and contributing greatly to the wiki efforts :)
[03:38] <sabdfl> Admiral_Chicago: by the mozilla team, you mean the same one that asac is involved with?
[03:38] <dfarning_> Freddy has been a great triager for the mozillateam.  While I was gone for the last several weeks,  Freddy stood up and helped get things rolling.  I felt very comfortable asking him to take responsibility for establishing our triaging and new member development processes.
[03:38] <Admiral_Chicago> sabdfl: exactly.
[03:38] <asac> I can confirm that his contributions Mozilla bug triage are substantial and of great value so far.
[03:38] <sabdfl> ok
[03:38] <nixternal> rock on! Anywho, Admiral_Chicago is w/o a doubt an asset as the email said. He has helped me out tremendously with Ubuntu Chicago, he is a Bug Addict, and he is from Chicago :)
[03:38] <sabdfl> i've been watching that team, and it's EXACTLY what I would like to see for each and every upstream!
[03:38] <Admiral_Chicago> sabdfl: the same one you mailed several weeks ago
[03:38] <sabdfl> very well done to them
[03:39] <sabdfl> they have done a super job of figuring out how to coordinate well between the distro and upstream
[03:39] <Admiral_Chicago> the team is a ton of work, i'm trying to structure the team as best as possible
[03:39] <sabdfl> i would like this for kernel, for X, for OO.o, for Gnome, KDE, XFCE, apache, samba....
[03:40] <nixternal> Isn't KDE the Kubuntu team?
[03:40] <mako> nixternal: well i don't know about that bug stuff but if he's from chicago... ;)
[03:40] <nixternal> hehe
[03:41] <amach1> congrats to every new member...
[03:41] <nixternal> he will be Ubuntu Chicago Co-Leader hopefully soon
[03:41] <amach1> am leaving for time being
[03:41] <amach1> thank u all
[03:41] <Admiral_Chicago> when you leave town.
[03:41] <nixternal> when I leave, you become #1 then :)
[03:41] <nixternal> You are my Dick Cheney, just don't shoot me
[03:41] <Vorian> lol
[03:42] <nixternal> haha
[03:42] <mako> anyway there is loads of great stuff here
[03:42] <mako> and a very nice wikipage
[03:42] <elmo> +1
[03:42] <Admiral_Chicago> took it from richard
[03:42] <nixternal> mako: he stole it from me :)
[03:42] <nixternal> haha
[03:43] <mako> +1 from me as well
[03:43] <nixternal> drum roll....
[03:45] <mako> sabdfl: you're up
[03:45] <elkbuntu> nixternal, now look what you've done. i bet he's holding out just to irk you.
[03:45] <nixternal> elkbuntu: I had my Congrats already typed out waiting :)
[03:45] <Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: listen to melissa
[03:46] <nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: I have to, she's my loco boss
[03:46] <dfarning_> One of the funny things about Freddy is how hard he works.  When he starts griping it is time to automate the process;)
[03:46] <nixternal> lol
[03:46] <nixternal> dfarning_: I just /ignore
[03:46] <nixternal> hehe
[03:47] <mako> ok..
[03:47] <nixternal> hehe
[03:47] <mako> is sabdfl has not already turned into a pumpkin...
[03:47] <nixternal> looks like it
[03:47] <mako> there was one final issue
[03:48] <Admiral_Chicago> which one is that?
[03:48] <mako> about the CC membmership stuff, ryan troy (ubuntugeek) and a number of other forums council members expressed some concern about having folks on both the CC and the FC
[03:48] <jsgotangco> and that is?
[03:48] <nixternal> hehe
[03:48] <sabdfl> no, i'm still here
[03:48] <mako> in theory, this would also apply to other team councils
[03:48] <sabdfl> pumkin time in 15
[03:48] <jsgotangco> yes
[03:48] <nixternal> yay sabdfl isn't a punkin
[03:49] <sabdfl> +1 from me on the basis of great work with the mozilla team
[03:49] <nixternal> YAY! Congrats Admiral_Chicago \o/ \o/
[03:49] <Admiral_Chicago> w00t! thanks everyone.
[03:49] <sabdfl> Admiral_Chicago: would love you to pick one of those other upstreams and try to lead the same magic there!
[03:49] <asac> Admiral_Chicago: welcome!
[03:49] <Vorian> congrats Admiral_Chicago :)
[03:49] <sabdfl> well done
[03:49] <nixternal> thanks sabdfl, mako, and elmo! I needed that :)
[03:49] <Jucato_> congratulations Admiral_Chicago!! though I barely said anything :)
[03:49] <elkbuntu> congrats freddy :)
[03:49] <AlexLatchford> Congrats Freddy
[03:49] <mako> i hope it's ok if i post this stuff
[03:49] <nixternal> bbiaf
[03:49] <mako> matthew from the forums council says:
[03:49] <mako> 09:30 <ubuntugeek> First off: congratulations, Mike! What an honor to be nominated.
[03:49] <mako> 09:30 <ubuntugeek> Second: I would tend to agree with Ryan. There would certainly appear to
[03:50] <mako> 09:30 <ubuntugeek> be a bit of a conflict of interest. I totally trust Mike, but it
[03:50] <mako> 09:30 <ubuntugeek> wouldn't project the best appearance and could give rise to some
[03:50] <Admiral_Chicago> sabdfl: we are working on upstream development, i've spoken to dfarning_ about our contact and getting them more integrated
[03:50] <mako> 09:30 <ubuntugeek> criticism.
[03:50] <mako> ryan and jdong have said something similar
[03:50] <mako> and even mikeb expressed some hesitation
[03:50] <sabdfl> i saw ubuntugeek here a while earlier, is he still around?
[03:50] <mako> sabdfl: he'll be back in a few, but i don't think we'll overlap
[03:50] <sabdfl> i personally think there's value in some overlap
[03:50] <mako> i just sort of wnated to get general reactions from the meeting and then finish it up over email
[03:50] <mako> sabdfl: oh, i agree
[03:50] <sabdfl> hence nominating dholbach to both motu council and cc
[03:51] <sabdfl> and mikeb for both cc and fc
[03:51] <sabdfl> there is certainly potential for conflicts of interest
[03:51] <mako> but i think that there's a concern that being your own conflict resolution body and oversight body defeats part of the purpose
[03:51] <sabdfl> if the cc for example is unhappy with the motu council, then dholbach will need to do a very diplomatic job :-)
[03:51] <sabdfl> true
[03:51] <jsgotangco> my opinion is that most would see the potential for conflict rather than the value of overlap
[03:51] <sabdfl> at the same time, it makes for less of an "us vs them" story
[03:51] <mako> sure, i think that given the types of candidates, it's primarily a theoretical conflict of interest
[03:51] <mako> sabdfl: right
[03:52] <elkbuntu> in such a situation would said individual not step aside for the particular decision?
[03:52] <sabdfl> they could recuse themselves, yes
[03:52] <mako> i think that there's a very good chance that this point, mikeb would choose not be on both
[03:52] <jsgotangco> elkbuntu: thats his choice though
[03:52] <mako> since a majority of his council has expressed some reservations
[03:52] <elkbuntu> jsgotangco, of course. bad wording.
[03:52] <mako> but i won't try to speak for him
[03:52] <sabdfl> i feel that's just deepening a potential divide, and i would like to bridge it as much as possible
[03:53] <sabdfl> i'm sure many forums *users* would like to have a forums person on the CC
[03:53] <mako> sabdfl: oh sure
[03:53] <sabdfl> and more and more of them are actually members, so could vote accordingly
[03:53] <mako> sabdfl: i'm not suggesting that we not nominate mikeb
[03:53] <mako> sabdfl: i'm suggesting that he might choose one or other if presented with both
[03:54] <mako> and that in the interest of managing percieved conflicts of interest, that's probably a pretty reasonable thing to do
[03:54] <mako> now, if mikeb would continue going to FC meetings as a CC member, that would be great :)
[03:54] <mako> he's already doing the inverse
[03:55] <mako> but part of the team council policy stuff encourages/requires that the councils have reps at the cc meetings, so i think we're probably reasonably covered
[03:56] <mako> sabdfl: in any case, the fc itself is the one expressing a little concern, so i think that in terms of dividing/bringing-together, it makes sense
[03:57] <mako> i think that in the curren vision of the CC as largely working above the FC and delegating most work to them, the role is mostly oversight and firefighting.. and in those contexts, it makes sense to not have it be the same people
[03:58] <dinda> and having different people means greater overall involvement
[03:58] <dinda> more diverse
[03:58] <mako> that's the idea
[03:59] <mako> it has the benefit of makingn it less cabalish :)
[03:59] <sabdfl> well, i'm not convinced, but i'm happy to try it
[03:59] <elkbuntu> that context applies to just about any project in the community, really.
[03:59] <mako> it can still be cabalish
[03:59] <sabdfl> i think it would be better for the person to recuse themselves from the other group in the case of a conflict of interest
[03:59] <sabdfl> so, in this case, from the FC
[03:59] <sabdfl> since sitting on the CC has a broader impact than the FC
[04:00] <sabdfl> how about that as a proposal, not in general, but for this case?
[04:00] <dinda> mako: I thought you talked about the overlap issue at UDS?
[04:00] <mako> dinda: i don't recall ever thinking about it this hard
[04:00] <sabdfl> that mike, if he's elected to the CC, would recuse himself from the FC when he felt that appropriate?
[04:00] <mako> dinda: we talked alot about how to handle precieved conflicts of interest
[04:01] <dinda> mako: for some reason I recall you drawing a diagram on the board
[04:01] <sabdfl> i'd rather deal with a conflict of interest when it arises, than lose mikeb from either body "just in case"
[04:01] <mako> sabdfl: right, but if he's going to recuse himself from anything he migth have to vote on as part of the cc, it's going to make him ineffective
[04:01] <elkbuntu> the fact that mike himself had reservations makes me confident he would identify appropriate situations anyway
[04:01] <mako> sabdfl: someone who brings up an issue to the fc, and has a result they are not happy with is not going to be happy bringing it up before the same person the next week
[04:02] <tsmithe> am i too late to say well done to Admiral_Chicago? /me hopes not... well done Admiral_Chicago!
[04:02] <mako> elkbuntu: i also trust mike
[04:02] <sabdfl> well, in the case of judicial systems, a superior court would certainly consider the opinion of the original court
[04:02] <sabdfl> though they might not go with it
[04:02] <dinda> and it's not the same judges
[04:03] <mako> sabdfl: right, but you're not allowed to sit on both courts
[04:03] <sabdfl> true
[04:03] <mako> sabdfl: and if you were involved in the case before, you have to recuse yourself
[04:03] <sabdfl> ok
[04:03] <sabdfl> well, then i would be happy with that as a guideline
[04:03] <sabdfl> that mike would recuse himself from issues that he's already discussed as part of the FC
[04:03] <mako> sabdfl: in fact, people interviewing to become high judges don't answer many questions based on the fact that they may have a case on them oin the future and don't want to color their "objectivity"
[04:03] <sabdfl> that way we still get the benefit of his presence for other issues
[04:04] <sabdfl> mako: i thought it was just because they didn't want to demonstrate their prejudices before confirmation ;-)
[04:04] <mako> sabdfl: that's the real reason, not the accepted justification :)
[04:05] <sabdfl> if the rest of the CC prefers for MikeB not to stand for the CC, then i won't nominate him
[04:05] <sabdfl> personally, i think he's a great candidate, and would like him to be in the list because forums are important
[04:05] <mako> sabdfl: i agree
[04:05] <sabdfl> i think it's mistaken to *reduce* the ability of the best Forums community leaders to stand for the CC
[04:05] <sabdfl> and i'm confident we can deal with any conflicts that arise if and when they do
[04:05] <mako> i see a couple choices
[04:06] <mako> one if that we adopt a policy like the one your suggesting
[04:06] <mako> which with a larger council might be possible
[04:06] <mako> and the second is that we continue to nominate people but give them a choice of where they want to be
[04:07] <mako> i honestly don't know mike thinks he's most useful
[04:07] <mako> but i'd love it if he continues to come both meetings regardless of what happens
[04:07] <mako> we don't need to decide something right here.. i'm interested to hear what the folks on the FC who have expressed concern with this think about the first proposal
[04:07] <mako> i'll email this now before i run off to my lab
[04:07] <sabdfl> ok
[04:08] <forumsmatthew> I am on the FC, may I give a quick bit of input?
[04:08] <sabdfl> go for it
[04:08] <mako> forumsmatthew: yes yes :)
[04:08] <mako> please
[04:08] <forumsmatthew> I like the idea of Mike serving on both
[04:08] <mako> forumsmatthew: didn't realize you were here :)
[04:08] <forumsmatthew> if he recuses himself from
[04:08] <forumsmatthew> any issues related to forums governance
[04:08] <forumsmatthew> etc
[04:08] <mako> forumsmatthew: i would want to make it policy
[04:08] <mako> nobody is allowed to weigh in on the same issue twice
[04:09] <mako> forumsmatthew: but your statement is actually a bit broader
[04:09] <mako> forumsmatthew: since it would also cover things like approving fc members
[04:09] <mako> which we would definitely need him to recuse himself from
[04:09] <mako> but there's still a potential for people being uncomfortable i think
[04:09] <forumsmatthew> I totally agree
[04:10] <forumsmatthew> I said so to Mike
[04:10] <mako> when it comes to a body that he sits on approving his position in another body
[04:10] <forumsmatthew> it's a difficult question
[04:10] <mako> forumsmatthew: think about it :)
[04:10] <mako> forumsmatthew: not just you, but the whole fc, and mike
[04:10] <mako> it's better to deal with this issue before something comes up :)
[04:11] <bapoumba> hi !
[04:11] <elkbuntu> mako, maybe set a meeting for a week's time, to let people think it over?
[04:12] <sabdfl> forumsmatthew: the FC charter says that the CC will seriously consider the views of the FC and other Forums staff and members in making FC nominations
[04:12] <sabdfl> what beter way to do so than to have a voice on the CC itself?
[04:12] <forumsmatthew> sabdfl, good point
[04:12] <sabdfl> statistically, a person is likely to be in the majority on the FC
[04:13] <sabdfl> if that same person is on the CC, then that majority gets even more weight
[04:13] <sabdfl> i can imagine that there are some hard issues where recusing would be wise
[04:13] <sabdfl> but i'm not convinced it should be a fixed policy
[04:13] <sabdfl> other than that it should be mentioned as a graceful way to deal with significant tension and cases where others on either side feel there's a conflict
[04:14] <sabdfl> i guess i'm willing to be trusting because i have some say in the appointments on both bodies and it would be a personal failure to end up creating a bad situation
[04:15] <sabdfl> ok
[04:15] <sabdfl> let's leave it to settle
[04:15] <sabdfl> hi ryan
[04:15] <ubuntugeek> hello
[04:15] <sabdfl> you got here just in time
[04:16] <sabdfl> mako raised the discussion you have been having with him
[04:16] <sabdfl> several folks weighed in
[04:16] <sabdfl> we'd like to hear your thoughts
[04:16] <ubuntugeek> Great
[04:16] <ubuntugeek> Well, as I stated to Mako and Mike I feel there is a strong conflict of interested in serving on both councils.
[04:17] <ubuntugeek> If the FC did not report directly to the CC then there wouldn't be an issue. But even if there is an objective stance taken on situations that could arise there is alot of room for error there.
[04:18] <mako> ubuntugeek: yes, there are two proposals, i'm summarizing them in an email
[04:19] <mako> ubuntugeek: one would have people choose one council to serve on
[04:19] <mako> an exception could probably made for the TB since it's non-overlapping and not under the CC
[04:19] <ubuntugeek> I think even having a CC memeber as part of staff could possibly slew any constructive results if there was an issue that was taken to the CC
[04:19] <mako> the second would establish that nobody gets to vote any issue that relates to their team council
[04:20] <mako> or that team's perview
[04:20] <ubuntugeek> Well, I really think the first choice is the only and best choice.
[04:20] <mako> they could of course argue for a position, but wouldn't get to make a decision
[04:20] <jsgotangco> brb
[04:21] <ubuntugeek> What you are asking could really open a huge can of "worms" so to speak.
[04:21] <mako> it's certainly the more conservative choice in this regard
[04:22] <mako> ubuntugeek: well, i don't think that CC forums staff member should be banned any more than FC staff members should be
[04:23] <ubuntugeek> banned?
[04:23] <mako> barred
[04:23] <mako> kept from happening
[04:23] <mako> not banned in the forums or irc sense :)
[04:23] <mako> heh
[04:23] <mako> but
[04:24] <ubuntugeek> Right, but then basically that person is a gratified FC member.
[04:24] <mako> i do think that we'd expect such a person to recuse themselves from issues where their involvement would imply a conflict of interest
[04:25] <ubuntugeek> It can be perceived as a "go" around to slide step the FC authority, and frankly makes us look like wish washes.
[04:25] <mako> ubuntugeek: i don't understand what you mean
[04:25] <mako> what is?
[04:25] <ubuntugeek> if a CC member was a forum staff member
[04:26] <mako> we're talkinga bout expanding the CC to at least six people
[04:26] <mako> one cc member isn't particularly important alone
[04:26] <forumsmatthew> u-g, I actually think if he were to recuse himself from any topic relating to forums governance it could be a good thing to have someone directly involved in forums leadership on the council
[04:26] <mako> especialy if they recuse themselves from issues related to the forums
[04:27] <ubuntugeek> forumsmatthew: sure, however will that happen? can we be guaranteed? No.
[04:27] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek: what if i were to nominate you for a future CC?
[04:27] <forumsmatthew> there would be some insights gained by the CC that are not necessarily available currently
[04:27] <mako> ubuntugeek: everyone on the cc should be very involved in some area of ubuntu, ideally in a leadership role
[04:27] <sabdfl> would you stand down from the FC?
[04:27] <mako> ubuntugeek: mdke is very involved in the doc team and the italian team and other things
[04:27] <ubuntugeek> sabdfl: I wouldnt accept the position. My focal point is the forums.
[04:27] <sabdfl> it seems wrongto me that the FC folks who have a broader interest and impact in ubuntu should have to stop working in the FC in order to contribute to the CC
[04:28] <mako> ubuntugeek: but we're not asking him to quit those things to take on a cc position, in fact, that'w hy we're doing it!
[04:28] <sabdfl> having overlap is a good way to get the FC's views represented
[04:28] <ubuntugeek> I really have to disagree.. And this is why we never come to any complete and strong resolutions. You guys don't listen.
[04:29] <mako> ubuntugeek: this is a reasonable conversation, there's no need to conclude that
[04:29] <mako> ubuntugeek: nobody has decided anything
[04:29] <ubuntugeek> I'm just stating a fact Mako. I am not being negative.
[04:30] <mako> we're having a conversation with you now because we care about your opinion on this, it's not fair to say that we don't listen
[04:30] <ubuntugeek> Thats fine move along then.
[04:31] <ubuntugeek> The point I am trying to make is simple, there is a conflict of interested in serving on both councils.
[04:32] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek: can you give us an example of that?
[04:33] <sabdfl> as i was saying earlier, statistically, any member of the CC is likely to be in the majority on any issue
[04:33] <mako> sabdfl: the one i'm concerned with is approving members of the FC
[04:33] <sabdfl> so the odds are that the majority view also gets expressed by a CC member, if that person is also on the CC
[04:34] <sabdfl> mako: because that would give one member of the FC a "stronger" say in FC nominations than the others?
[04:34] <ubuntugeek> You guys win.. I wont agrue this point anymore.
[04:34] <mako> sabdfl: taht's right
[04:34] <mako> ubuntugeek: i'm arguing your position here man
[04:35] <mako> sabdfl: even if that person does not vote (and they shouldn't), one would conclude that they would be more likely to be reapproved for the FC than other FC members
[04:35] <mako> sabdfl: whether or not that's true, its very hard to avoid that appearance
[04:36] <sabdfl> right
[04:36] <mako> sabdfl: it seems difficult to imagine that a cc/fc member would not be approved by the fc for the cc
[04:36] <mako> we could argue that's because the cc is approved by all members and so is, as a result, going to always be trustworthy
[04:36] <sabdfl> you mean, for the fc by the cc :-)
[04:36] <mako> yes, that's what i mean
[04:37] <mako> i think that recusing from forums business handles almost every other situation pretty well
[04:37] <sabdfl> i would say that the confirmaiton process of being on the CC is such that a person who makes it is someone who would also do well on any other specific community body
[04:37] <mako> that's true
[04:37] <Admiral_Chicago> mako: i have a signed CoC with a GPG key, do you need that mailed to you for membership
[04:37] <mako> MikeB-: hola
[04:38] <mako> Admiral_Chicago: launchpad, launchpad
[04:38] <MikeB-> hola
[04:38] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek: this is not about winning or losing, or giving up, it's about a structure that works and lets the best people have the biggest impact everywhere
[04:38] <dennda> Admiral_Chicago, just upload it to launchpad
[04:38] <ubuntugeek> I really think its a mistake and is not a well thought out process.
[04:38] <MikeB-> long meeting:)
[04:38] <Admiral_Chicago> okay. it's up there now.
[04:38] <mako> MikeB-: the meeting is basically over, we're just discussion dual memership now
[04:38] <sabdfl> MikeB-: i've deferred another conversation to keep up with this one
[04:38] <mako> ubuntugeek: that'w why we're talking about it now
[04:39] <ubuntugeek> mako: with all do respect you guys are talking and telling how its going to work.
[04:39] <dennda> Admiral_Chicago, please read this for further information. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewMemberHowto (a meeting is going on right now, right here :) )
[04:39] <sabdfl> i am happy with mako's suggestion that people on the CC should recuse themselves from decisions where there is a feeling of a conflict of interest w.r.t. another community position
[04:39] <mako> ubuntugeek: we don't know how it's going to work, so i find that unlikely
[04:39] <ubuntugeek> I see.
[04:39] <mako> ubuntugeek: i proposed two options, that was one
[04:40] <mako> the other was that folks should choose between one or the other
[04:40] <mako> ubuntugeek: and i've been laying out the argument for that over the last 10 minutes
[04:41] <mako> ubuntugeek: i'm trying to argue for the situation you've suggested. go easy on me :)
[04:41] <ubuntugeek> mako: Ok
[04:42] <ubuntugeek> On your second suggestion, in theory it could work. But I think its a hard line for anyone to walk to be objective in that sense.
[04:43] <MikeB-> can someone send me the two suggestion, I missed that part
[04:43] <mako> MikeB-: yes, i'll mail it now
[04:43] <ubuntugeek> Suggestion One: choose between the teams.
[04:44] <MikeB-> thanks
[04:44] <jenda> ubuntugeek: in politics, both schemes work just as well... or not ;)
[04:45] <ubuntugeek> jenda: I am really not interested in politics. I am interested in protecting the forums.
[04:45] <MikeB-> wow, it has been hours since I caused this much trouble:)
[04:45] <Seeker`> If you make someone choose between the teams, one of the teams may be "losing out" on a valuable member of their team
[04:45] <mako> sorry had a phone call
[04:45] <ubuntugeek> seeker: thats life.
[04:46] <ubuntugeek> seeker: it isnt all gravy.
[04:46] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek: we've identified the case where new FC members are appointed. what other cases do you think might be a case where the forums need protection?
[04:47] <Seeker`> ubuntugeek: But that may damage the team that you want to protect
[04:47] <mako> MikeB-: i just sent the proposals to the fc list
[04:47] <mako> MikeB-: and the cc list
[04:47] <ubuntugeek> sabdfl: honestly, our issues are dynamic I cannot give a exact case. I do however feel strong that if a person was on the FC and the CC and a issue from the forums was presented to the CC objective or not there is a room for serious errors and judgements if a person was serving on both teams.
[04:49] <mako> ubuntugeek: ok, i totally agree that nobody should be aloud to vote twice on any issue
[04:50] <mako> ubuntugeek: i think that folks in the forums will be worried about appealing anything to what appears to be an overlapping board
[04:50] <forumsmatthew> mako: you're saying if they have given input as an FC member then they don't do so as a CC member, right?
[04:51] <sabdfl> conversely, they have already expressed concern about appealing to a board which "doesn't understand their issues"
[04:51] <ubuntugeek> mako: agreed, but it goes beyond just a vote. For example, would the CC consult said FC member for information about the subject? Could that FC be objective enough to give a whole hearted opinion to the CC on the situation?
[04:51] <mako> forumsmatthew: taht's right
[04:51] <jenda> forumsmatthew: that sounds very reasonable to me.
[04:51] <mako> ubuntugeek: well the CC should be consulting the whole FC on any issue that involves the forums
[04:51] <mako> ubuntugeek: that was part of the deal :)
[04:52] <ubuntugeek> mako: sure, i am not saying it isnt :)
[04:52] <mako> ubuntugeek: i think for internal forums issues that pass the cc, the fc/cc member could reperesent the issue, or otheres from the fc could
[04:52] <mako> but the fc member wouldn't vote as part of the cc
[04:53] <mako> on that issue
[04:53] <sabdfl> that would be fine
[04:53] <sabdfl> by me
[04:53] <mako> ubuntugeek: i'm just trying to feel you out on this
[04:53] <sabdfl> i think that as soon as this happens the FC will say "hey, we want our guy to vote"
[04:53] <ubuntugeek> mako: sure its hard to explain over irc
[04:53] <mako> the only potential problem i see
[04:53] <MikeB-> agree, that is how business and other board do it
[04:53] <sabdfl> but i'm happy to have a guideline that someone on the FC (or MC) recuses themselves from decisions over that body in their CC capacity
[04:54] <mako> actually, the thing i was thinking about wasn't really a problem
[04:55] <mako> ubuntugeek: we could make it a rule
[04:56] <mako> the leadership coc says to delegate decisions to others where there is a percieved conflict
[04:56] <sabdfl> right
[04:56] <mako> if we think this will be very common, that person will become a less valuable cc member
[04:56] <mako> or if we think the other issues i've brought up are problematic enough
[04:57] <ubuntugeek> mako: thats alot of rules and whatifs floating around :)
[04:57] <mako> those would be reasons to go the more conservative route of not allowing people on both teams
[04:57] <mako> ubuntugeek: well, constructing the justification is
[04:57] <mako> ubuntugeek: the rule as i'd write it is pretty simple
[04:58] <ubuntugeek> mako: ok spell it out..
[04:58] <mako> "Nobody who serves on the CC and a team council can vote, as part of the CC, on any issue in the domain of their team council."
[04:58] <sabdfl> i would put it different;y
[04:59] <mako> sabdfl: go  give a exact case. I do however feel strong that if a person was on the FC and the CC and a issue  from the forums was presented to the CC objective or not there is a room for serious errors and judgements if a person was serving on both teams.
[04:59] <sabdfl> a member of the CC should recuse themselves from decisions by the CC which are a ruling on a prior decision of a subordinate team
[04:59] <mako> hmm
[04:59] <mako> i think that was another past problem
[05:00] <sabdfl> if the issue is presented to the FC *first*, and then re-presented to the CC, then I can understand the potential for concern (though I'll say again that *I* would want more representation, not less, on the CC if I was in the shoes of the FC)
[05:00] <MikeB-> The CC, FC, Tech Board  can vote out a member if needed, before their tearm is up on the team?
[05:00] <mako> sabdfl: of which they are member
[05:01] <mako> sabdfl: you forgot that part :)
[05:01] <mako> sabdfl: the one you listed basically invalidates the need for CC i think
[05:01] <mako> by charter, anny forums issue needs to be presented to the fc first :)
[05:02] <ubuntugeek> sabdfl: this would be about if that person can be objective enough. More representation is good, but if that person cannot be objective then whats the point?
[05:03] <bodhi_zazen_work> Hello Ubuntu :)
[05:03] <ubuntugeek> I'm not saying that Mike couldn't be objective, I just saying "what if" and could apply to anyone.
[05:03] <PriceChild> bodhi_zazen_work, previous meeting is still going on... we'll start soon ;)
[05:03] <forumsmatthew> PriceChild, sweet!!!
[05:03] <mako> ubuntugeek: that's right, i hope MikeB- realizes that nobody is doubting his own credulity here :)
[05:04] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek: to me, the fact that someone is on the CC suggests that the whole community has faith in them
[05:04] <forumsmatthew> sorry...wrong channel
[05:04] <ubuntugeek> sabdfl: sure but thats not the point.
[05:04] <sabdfl> it's certainly *a* point ;-)
[05:04] <sabdfl> look, i don't want this to be a contentious issue
[05:04] <sabdfl> i think MikeB- would be a superb CC member
[05:04] <sabdfl> and would make good decisions that affect the whole community
[05:05] <ubuntugeek> sabdfl: well not really, because even if the community has faith, it doesn't guarantee that person will be objective.
[05:05] <sabdfl> and i am surprised that ubuntugeek is arguing against having someone with strong forums roots on the CC
[05:05] <mako> ubuntugeek: right, that's undestood
[05:05] <mako> ubuntugeek: i'm actually not worried that they won't be objective, but that people will feel that they might not be objective
[05:05] <sabdfl> i think the reality is that nobody likes being overrules
[05:05] <sabdfl> d
[05:05] <ubuntugeek> sabdfl: no reason to turn this around on me. I am mearly pointing out a flaw in your process.
[05:06] <forumsmatthew> Is objectivity always desirable? Don't we want people to represent their interests (assuming of course they ultimately have the community's best interests at heart)
[05:06] <sabdfl> the hierarchical structure we have *inevitably* means that groups that have decisions delegated to them are at risk of having another group disagree in a binding way
[05:06] <sabdfl> that creates tension
[05:06] <sabdfl> regardless of who's on that other group
[05:06] <mako> ubuntugeek: right, are you still uncomfortable with the position with the proviso that i listed?
[05:06] <sabdfl> that's just the nature of things
[05:06] <sabdfl> it seems to me that overlap at least has the benefit of ensuring that insight is there when needed
[05:07] <sabdfl> if the CC were to overrule the FC on something, that will bite regardless, frankly
[05:07] <ubuntugeek> sabdfl:  and thats still a huge problem to me.
[05:07] <sabdfl> i think it more likely that the FC would be satisfied with decisions taken by a CC that has people who understand the subtleties of the forums world
[05:08] <sabdfl> and the same is true of *any* community in the project
[05:08] <mako> ubuntugeek: that's why we are working really hard to creates structures that prevent that from happening
[05:08] <ubuntugeek> mako: so why is mark threatening it?
[05:08] <sabdfl> in fact, i woul dbe concerned if any one large constituency had too much weight on the CC, regardless of the fact that we want all CC folks to represent the whole community's interests and not just one part of it
[05:08] <mako> ubuntugeek: i didn't see it as a threat, just a point
[05:08] <ubuntugeek> mako: from my point of view its a threat.
[05:09] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek: that is the nature of oversight, it's pointless to discuss all the times we agree, the times that *count* are the times we *disagree*
[05:09] <mako> ubuntugeek: well, sabdfl the benefit of the doubt or we'll never move forward
[05:09] <mako> ubuntugeek: but it seems that having someone from the forums on the CC could only help the situation
[05:09] <sabdfl> in a judicial system, the appeals that have real consequences are those that change the previous verdict
[05:10] <mako> ubuntugeek: but threats or no threats aside.. in the interest of moving forward
[05:10] <mako> ubuntugeek: would a committement like the one i suggested resolve your concerns?
[05:11] <mako> ubuntugeek: by removing the person with a conflict from any decision where it would play a role
[05:11] <sabdfl> this is a really interesting situation
[05:11] <mako> ubuntugeek: and allowing forums input into other higher level sort of things (i.e., approval of changes to policy, the coc, etc)
[05:11] <sabdfl> mako: would you suggest that, in this case, the relevant CC member recuse themselves if *any* FC member raised such an objection?
[05:12] <sabdfl> because then the CC member will always be asked to recuse themselves, by folks on either side of the FC, if there was *any* dissent in the FC decision
[05:12] <mako> sabdfl: i would hope they would recuse themselves in situations where no fc member made an objection
[05:12] <sabdfl> funny, i tend to go with the idea that more insight helps make a better decision
[05:12] <mako> sabdfl: i'm as worried about non-fc members who brought issues before the fc and then appealed to the cc as anything else
[05:12] <sabdfl> unless personal issues are at stake
[05:12] <mako> i'm not suggesting a lack of insight
[05:13] <mako> i think every fc member, including someone who could potentially be on the cc, should help inform every cc decision regarding the forums
[05:13] <mako> i'm suggesting that they should cast a vote on an issue they've already cast a vote on
[05:13] <mako> or have a known position on
[05:14] <mako> it's a not fair hearing if you know how the person feels ahead of time
[05:14] <mako> sorry, i'm suggesting that they should not cast a vote on an issue they've cast a vote on before
[05:16] <mako> a hearing before a person who already has decided is a kangaroo court
[05:17] <ubuntugeek> need to catch up. was afk
[05:17] <mako> ubuntugeek: cool
[05:18] <sabdfl> mako: are you happy with us narrowing the scope of the conflict down to specific decisions under review by a higher council?
[05:19] <mako> sabdfl: sort of...
[05:19] <ubuntugeek> mako: so you suggesting is to write a rule/policy that if a issue arises in said persons 'domain'  that person would only weigh opinions inside that 'domain' ?
[05:19] <forumsmatthew> for those waiting for the Forums Council meeting: sorry, we're a bit delayed getting started
[05:19] <mako> forumsmatthew: let us know if we need to shut up :)
[05:19] <sabdfl> i'm not happy with the domain view, because it means that the person would be excluded from many of the discussions where they would be most valuable
[05:20] <sabdfl> i can see the argument against "reviewing a decision they took before"
[05:20] <mako> sabdfl: i said vote, not discuss
[05:20] <mako> sabdfl: or i meant to
[05:20] <MikeB-> sabdfl: Voice but no vote
[05:20] <mako> sabdfl: ok ok, but there's another important case
[05:20] <mako> sabdfl: which is appointing team council members
[05:20] <sabdfl> we have very, very few discussions on the cc that are not open to every voice, in any event
[05:20] <forumsmatthew> mako, I think we have a few more minutes. this is important and we are getting close to some sort of consensus I think
[05:20] <mako> sabdfl: it's not in the domain of the tc, but it's very important
[05:21] <sabdfl> ok, i agree there too
[05:21] <mako> ubuntugeek: more or less, we're discussing the extend of what domain means right now
[05:21] <ubuntugeek> mako: Ok
[05:21] <sabdfl> agree it is contentious, though i would still fall in favour of participation there on the basis of valuable insight
[05:21] <mako> ubuntugeek: sabdfl and i agree that applies to at least any decision made a by the fc, and the fc membership
[05:21] <Rootvzla> hi mako
[05:22] <sabdfl> but i can live with a guideline of recusing in cases of (a) reviewing an FC decision and (b) FC nominee confirmations
[05:22] <mako> ubuntugeek: because by charter, forums stuff percolates up through the fc, that's probably effectively the same thing
[05:22] <sabdfl> this should all be generalised so it is not specific to the FC
[05:22] <mako> sabdfl: yes, that's right
[05:22] <sabdfl> ok
[05:22] <ubuntugeek> mako: thats fine
[05:22] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek?
[05:22] <mako> ubuntugeek: anything else you want to add to that
[05:22] <ubuntugeek> nope
[05:22] <mako> ok, if you think of something, or if others on the fc do, let us know
[05:23] <mako> that's just the two areas for abuse and conflict of interest i see
[05:23] <mako> but there mayb e more
[05:23] <ubuntugeek> can this be summarized in an email for the record?
[05:23] <sabdfl> we can amend the guidelines as those arise
[05:23] <mako> yes, absolutely
[05:23] <mako> to both of you
[05:23] <mako> i'll send an email
[05:23] <sabdfl> MikeB-: would you be happy to serve on both bodies, given these guidelines?
[05:24] <MikeB-> yes
[05:24] <sabdfl> ok
[05:24] <sabdfl> mako: where would be the most appropriate place to enshrine this guideline?
[05:24] <sabdfl> team councils?
[05:24] <mako> sabdfl: part of the team council document i guess?
[05:24] <sabdfl> what's the interaction with the TB (which I do see as reporting to the CC as much as to me)
[05:26] <sabdfl> i would hate to lose the TB's views if things get escalated to the CC
[05:26] <mako> the tb and the cc have non-overlapping magisteria, no?
[05:26] <sabdfl> binary drivers are a classic case where both are required
[05:27] <mako> both view ares required
[05:27] <sabdfl> ultimately i think that's a cc decision, but we had tb on the call for certain
[05:27] <mako> yes yes
[05:27] <mako> if its ultimately the cc's decision, it's not an issue
[05:27] <mako> the only real question is, if it's a joint vote, does someone get counted twice
[05:28] <mako> but i don't think that's likely, or perhaps even possible
[05:28] <sabdfl> right - we just did it as a joint discussion
[05:28] <mako> yah
[05:28] <sabdfl> ok, let's not worry about it - long meeting already
[05:28] <mako> that's good enough for me
[05:28] <mako> today at least :)
[05:28] <sabdfl> i've thought of nominating TB folks to CC but it's too much time
[05:28] <mako> ubuntugeek, MikeB-: thanks :)
[05:28] <mako> sabdfl: i'm sure they appreciate it
[05:28] <sabdfl> ok. mako will you draft something and send to CC / FC?
[05:29] <MikeB-> thanks mako
[05:29] <mako> yeah, something short
[05:29] <sabdfl> cool
[05:29] <mako> forumsmatthew: thanks for being patient
[05:29] <mako> forumsmatthew: we'll  shut up now
[05:29] <forumsmatthew> mako, you're welcome. This was important and affected us as well
[05:30] <sabdfl> ok, thanks very much all
[05:30] <sabdfl> elmo, cjwatson, happy?
[05:30] <elmo> yes
[05:30] <sabdfl> well, respond to the email :-)
[05:30] <sabdfl> ok
[05:30] <MikeB-> I hope some people will stick around for the FC meeting
[05:31] <mako> hmm.. i'll stick around
[05:31] <forumsmatthew> Shall we start with a roll call of sorts?
[05:31] <sabdfl> i can't i'm afraid
[05:31] <Vorian> ----------------->Begin Forum Council Meeting<-----------------
[05:31] <sabdfl> enjoy guys
[05:31] <ubuntugeek> mako sabdfl: thanks
[05:31] <ubuntugeek> ok
[05:31] <forumsmatthew> thanks, mako and sabdfl
[05:31] <ubuntugeek> as the result of that
[05:31] <ubuntugeek> we are running late
[05:31] <ubuntugeek> heh
[05:31] <ubuntugeek> so lets shut downt he backyard
[05:31] <Vorian> lol
[05:32] <ubuntugeek> ban all the people we dislike
[05:32] <PriceChild> lol
[05:32] <superuser> lol
[05:32] <forumsmatthew> that would be easier
[05:32] <ubuntugeek> make the theme purple
[05:32] <forumsmatthew> +1
[05:32] <ubuntugeek> or even bright pink
[05:32] <forumsmatthew> neon?
[05:32] <ubuntugeek> and then watch people cry
[05:32] <MikeB-> purple and green, or hulk smash
[05:32] <ubuntugeek>  /end evil
[05:32] <ubuntugeek> ok now
[05:32] <mako> very effective meeting style
[05:32] <mako> the cc could learn something
[05:32] <MikeB-> is Kiwi around ?
[05:32] <SD-Plissken> ubuntugeeks sounds like ubuntuforums version of punk'ed
[05:33] <forumsmatthew> I haven't seen him today
[05:33] <PriceChild> mako, don't you know it :)
[05:33] <ubuntugeek> mako: heh got have some fun
[05:33] <PriceChild> Kiwi's not online ont he forums
[05:33] <bapoumba> remove the submit button, when you're at it
[05:33] <forumsmatthew> jdong can't make it
[05:34] <PriceChild> Maybe Vorian should lead this meeting?
[05:34] <MikeB-> we have 3 out of 5, so we have voting concesus
[05:34] <tsmithe> PriceChild, ping me when we get to f-a
[05:34] <ubuntugeek> OK, so lets deal with "Review Forum guidelines"
[05:34] <ubuntugeek> Basically I just wanted to bring this up and get a FC approval or denial to our current set of guidelines.
[05:34] <forumsmatthew> I like the current set and would like to
[05:34] <Vorian> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=341868
[05:35] <forumsmatthew> suggest a couple of small changes
[05:35] <forumsmatthew> namely: allowing languages other than English in the Loco forums
[05:35] <forumsmatthew> and cleaning up the language
[05:35] <ubuntugeek> forumsmatthew: sounds good to me. also the url vorian pointed out has some fixes
[05:35] <forumsmatthew> I will volunteer to do the grammar/phrasing editing
[05:36] <ubuntugeek> forumsmathew: ok, i can show you were to edit that.
[05:36] <forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, thanks
[05:36] <ubuntugeek> for the changes in the mentioned thread and matthew cleaning it up +1
[05:36] <MikeB-> I would also suggest maybe renaming the Forum Guideline the Forums Code of Conduit, so we match other simular policies in the community
[05:37] <ubuntugeek> MikeB: good idea
[05:37] <forumsmatthew> MikeB-, +1
[05:37] <ubuntugeek> +1
[05:37] <forumsmatthew> I'll spell it right, though. :)
[05:37] <forumsmatthew> at least I'll try
[05:38] <MikeB-> I be up since 4:30 Am for the CC meeting:)
[05:38] <Vorian> lol
[05:38] <forumsmatthew> I don't always spel gud when I sleep late
[05:38] <ubuntugeek> ok so shall we move on to the next subject?
[05:38] <forumsmatthew> +1
[05:38] <MikeB-> +1 for clean up and name change
[05:38] <Vorian> Forum Teams......
[05:39] <Vorian> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=340827
[05:39] <ubuntugeek> Ok,
[05:39] <PriceChild> Could the applicants present shout up?
[05:39] <mssever> I'm here
[05:40] <Vorian> apjone?
[05:40] <forumsmatthew> LordIllidan?
[05:40] <Vorian> LordIllidan cant make it forumsmatthew
[05:40] <forumsmatthew> Vorian, thank you
[05:40] <ubuntugeek> I think apjone sent me a PM saying he just wanted to a member of the team not a leader
[05:40] <ubuntugeek> lemme verify
[05:40] <Vorian> ah
[05:41] <Vorian> ubuntugeek, that would mean we have no candidate for the hardware team.
[05:41] <forumsmatthew> Lord Illidan said he was interested in either
[05:41] <ubuntugeek> i could be totally lost in my thoughts tho
[05:41] <forumsmatthew> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1695147&postcount=3/
[05:41] <forumsmatthew> Beginners or Hardward
[05:42] <forumsmatthew> hardware
[05:42] <forumsmatthew> serves me right for teasing mike
[05:42] <Vorian> well both of the unanswered post candidates are here... we could start there.
[05:42] <Vorian> forumsmatthew, you are correct :)
[05:42] <MikeB-> bwhaha!
[05:43] <Vorian> MikeB-, does that mean no :)
[05:43] <forumsmatthew> Vorian, lets start there
[05:43] <forumsmatthew> jacobmp92, state yor case:
[05:43] <forumsmatthew> doh! your
[05:43] <Vorian> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1700569&postcount=19/
[05:43] <ubuntugeek> no clue i must be lost.. soo carry on
[05:43] <Vorian> application link
[05:44] <jacobmp92> Hi, I'm Jacob Peddicord, and to be honest, I wasn't planning on being here today, but school was closed due to school.
[05:44] <mako> jacobmp92: where is home?
[05:44] <Vorian> snow* right :P
[05:44] <jacobmp92> mako: Ohio :)
[05:44] <mako> jacobmp92: hopefully that snow storm hits me tonight :)
[05:44] <jacobmp92> So, I wrote everything in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JacobPeddicord/UnansweredPostsIntro
[05:45] <jacobmp92> but I'll restate some things:
[05:45] <jacobmp92> I come to the forums almost daily, and try to post as much as possible
[05:46] <jacobmp92> I use the Unanswered Posts search link to find all of the empty topics, and attempt to answer them
[05:46] <PriceChild> jacobmp92's post history seems to be Very helpful :)
[05:46] <jacobmp92> My post rate is climbing, the reason it is at a low 1.4 is because I was not too active in the summer :-P
[05:46] <forumsmatthew> PriceChild, agreed
[05:47] <forumsmatthew> jacobmp92, have you ever led a project of any kind?
[05:47] <forumsmatthew> school, etc.?
[05:48] <jacobmp92> forumsmatthew: yes, last summer at OSC I was the lead developer for an application to crack /weak/ RSA keys
[05:48] <forumsmatthew> how many people worked with you on that?
[05:48] <PriceChild> OSC?
[05:48] <jacobmp92> there were two others
[05:48] <jacobmp92> PriceChild: OSC is a summer program at OSU
[05:49] <PriceChild> OSU?
[05:49] <jacobmp92> PriceChild: it stands for Ohio Supercomputer Center
[05:49] <PriceChild> Ah ok wow cool :)
[05:49] <jacobmp92> PriceChild: Ohio State University :)
[05:49] <forumsmatthew> what is your vision for the Unanswered Posts team? What would you do do?
[05:49] <jacobmp92> Again, I stated most of this on that wiki page, but I would plan on organizing members into their areas of expertise, and try to get them on a minimum of 1 unanswered post per day
[05:50] <jacobmp92> and up that post rate weekly, so the next week would be two per day, and so on
[05:50] <forumsmatthew> since members would be volunteers, would that be a hard an fast quota or more of a guideline?
[05:50] <jacobmp92> Basically I'd  like to see the team take care of all of those posts, of people who thought no one wanted to help them on the forums
[05:51] <jacobmp92> forumsmatthew: more of a guideline
[05:51] <jacobmp92> because everyone has other plans :)
[05:51] <forumsmatthew> thank you
[05:51] <forumsmatthew> anyone else have a question for jacob?
[05:51] <jacobmp92> :)
[05:52] <ubuntugeek> nope
[05:52] <MikeB-> nope, sounds good
[05:52] <forumsmatthew> mssever, are you ready
[05:52] <JayTee52> jacobmp92: if you want volunteers, I'd be glad to be on your team
[05:52] <sid> @schedule New_York
[05:52] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: Current meeting: Forum Council | 13 Feb 15:00: Technical Board | 14 Feb 05:00: MOTU | 14 Feb 15:00: Edubuntu | 15 Feb 00:00: IRC Operators | 15 Feb 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[05:52] <jacobmp92> JayTee52: I think that will be handled after the meeteing
[05:52] <mssever> I'm Scott Severance, in Texas
[05:53] <Vorian> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1703030&postcount=20/
[05:53] <mssever> My thinking is similar to jacombp92
[05:53] <mssever> I would like to set up a sort of unanswered post triage system
[05:53] <mssever> so My team would compile a list of subject area experts
[05:54] <forumsmatthew> interesting
[05:54] <forumsmatthew> tell us about any experiences you have leading teams or projects
[05:54] <mssever> then the team would point out difficult posts to thise experts
[05:55] <mssever> well, I'm currently the chair of my church board, and I've chaired several other committees in church and when I was in college
[05:56] <forumsmatthew> any specific projects while on those committees/boards?
[05:56] <forumsmatthew> just a "we did this"
[05:56] <mssever> general administration, mostly...
[05:56] <forumsmatthew> okay
[05:57] <mssever> on one of the committees, we reoriganized our structure during my tenure
[05:57] <forumsmatthew> can I ask each of you to answer this question: what is your leadership style? (top down, consensus, etc)
[05:58] <mssever> I'm very democratic/consensus based
[05:58] <jacobmp92> i'm very much the same, I ask for opinions and go based on a general consensus
[05:58] <forumsmatthew> how do you feel about sharing responsibilities?
[05:58] <forumsmatthew> both, again
[05:58] <jacobmp92> perfectly fine with me :)
[05:58] <mssever> As far as I'm concerned,m it's essential
[05:58] <bodhi_zazen_work> Depends, generally consesus
[06:00] <SD-Plissken> I don't buy it,and don't honestly feel you can have two leads,and them both be willing share the responsibilities.
[06:00] <ubuntugeek> hmm
[06:01] <forumsmatthew> brb...knock at the door
[06:01] <tsmithe> don't answer it!
[06:02] <forumsmatthew> I'm back
[06:02] <adamant1988> Ok... sorry I missed so much.. what are we talking about?
[06:02] <forumsmatthew> Here's what we're thinking
[06:02] <ubuntugeek> perhaps looking at it like this.. if the team was a forum category (unanswered posts), and both were "administrators" of that category and team members were moderators. that would essential be what we are talking about
[06:02] <forumsmatthew> it's an experiment
[06:03] <forumsmatthew> do you think the two of you could communicate and work together as co-leaders
[06:03] <ubuntugeek> ok i am going to +1 both for team leader positions on the unanswered team. I think this team has the potential to be large.
[06:04] <Vorian> a very large team indeed :)
[06:04] <jacobmp92> forumsmatthew: sure, I think having two leaders would spread the load, since I think many will be applying for the team
[06:04] <ravtux> I am here
[06:04] <mssever> perhaps, although I think things work better if the areas of responsibility are fairly well defined to avoid conflict
[06:04] <MikeB-> +1
[06:05] <MikeB-> for  both for team leader positions on the unanswered team
[06:06] <mssever> but I'm willing to work with Jacob
[06:06] <forumsmatthew> mssever, I was just about to ask that
[06:06] <forumsmatthew> okay, then +1
[06:06] <forumsmatthew> for the experiment
[06:06] <forumsmatthew> Please make it work well, guys
[06:06] <forumsmatthew> :)
[06:06] <jacobmp92> experiments are fun
[06:07] <Vorian> congrats jacobmp92 and mssever!
[06:07] <MikeB-> congrats
[06:07] <jacobmp92> thanks! :-)
[06:07] <mssever> thanks
[06:07] <forumsmatthew> I'm looking forward to seeing good things from this team
[06:07] <forumsmatthew> congrats
[06:07] <forumsmatthew> okay, next team is...
[06:07] <SD-Plissken> I'm not. personally i think it's doomed to fail.
[06:08] <ubuntugeek> sd: thats possible, lets give it a go and see how it plays out.
[06:08] <ubuntugeek> Beginners Team
[06:08] <ubuntugeek> Who's here to represent?
[06:09] <Vorian> bodhi_zazen_work, your up
[06:09] <bodhi_zazen_work> What can I tell you ?
[06:10] <bodhi_zazen_work> I am active in my community and teach an adult ed course
[06:10] <bodhi_zazen_work> on Linux
[06:10] <forumsmatthew> great
[06:10] <Vorian> cool
[06:10] <ubuntugeek> Great, you are very active on the forums as well
[06:10] <bodhi_zazen_work> I enjoy assisting people transitioning into Linux
[06:10] <forumsmatthew> and very helpful
[06:11] <bodhi_zazen_work> Thanks :)
[06:11] <bodhi_zazen_work> I try to keep my foot out of my mouth ;)
[06:11] <ravtux> bodhi.zazen has also had articles written up on him, how he converts donated computers to give to the needy
[06:11] <forumsmatthew> I notice your application says you want a position on the team
[06:11] <ubuntugeek> How do you in-vision the beginners team helping beginners? what improvements would you make to the beginners area?
[06:11] <SD-Plissken> ubuntugeek I can vouch for bodhi_zazen.
[06:11] <forumsmatthew> are you interested in leading it?
[06:11] <bodhi_zazen_work> I would like to flesh out FAQ
[06:12] <ravtux> +1 for bodhi.zazen
[06:12] <bodhi_zazen_work> Have solutions peer-reviwed
[06:12] <bodhi_zazen_work> and then move them into tehe wiki
[06:12] <bodhi_zazen_work> the
[06:12] <forumsmatthew> that would make some people happy...do you currently contribute to the wiki?
[06:12] <bodhi_zazen_work> I have not ...
[06:13] <bodhi_zazen_work> I haev need active with the UDSF
[06:13] <bodhi_zazen_work> and Flucbuntu
[06:13] <bodhi_zazen_work> Fluxbuntu
[06:13] <frodon> yep bodhi_zazen_work is a great UDSF contributor
[06:13] <forumsmatthew> okay
[06:13] <frodon> he's the man
[06:13] <ubuntugeek> heh
[06:14] <ubuntugeek> I dont have any further questions..
[06:14] <forumsmatthew> me either
[06:14] <MikeB-> none here
[06:14] <bodhi_zazen_work> Thanks Frodon :)
[06:14] <forumsmatthew> +1
[06:14] <ubuntugeek> +1
[06:14] <PriceChild> What about Lord Illian though?
[06:14] <PriceChild> I'm thinking its a bit unfair to make a decision without considering him because of timezone differences
[06:15] <MikeB-> +1
[06:15] <forumsmatthew> his timezone is very close to mine
[06:15] <ubuntugeek> I thought someone said Lord wanted hardware?
[06:15] <forumsmatthew> he also applied for the hardware team
[06:15] <forumsmatthew> either one
[06:15] <forumsmatthew> I think he would be an excellent leader for that
[06:15] <Vorian> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1695147&postcount=3/
[06:15] <ubuntugeek> matthew agreed
[06:15] <ravtux> perhaps he would be great for hardware
[06:15] <Vorian> first line
[06:15] <Vorian> Beginner Area Team OR Hardware Area Team
[06:15] <ubuntugeek> vorian: thanks..
[06:16] <Vorian> :)
[06:16] <ravtux> +1 lord illian for hardware
[06:16] <MikeB-> there will be a ton of cross over between beginner and hardware anyways
[06:16] <forumsmatthew> since neither he nor apjone are here I will make my decision for leading hardware based on what I know of each
[06:16] <forumsmatthew> +1 for Lord Illidan
[06:16] <ubuntugeek> I think lord would be great for the hardware position, he has been around the forums for awhile now
[06:16] <MikeB-> +1 for Lord Illidan
[06:17] <ubuntugeek> +1 lord
[06:17] <forumsmatthew> congratulations in your absence, LI
[06:17] <Vorian> congrats Lord Illidan!!
[06:17] <MikeB-> lol
[06:17] <Vorian> haha
[06:17] <ubuntugeek> grats all
[06:17] <ravtux> congrats bodhi.zazen and lord Illian
[06:17] <MikeB-> congrats to all
[06:17] <ravtux> yes congrats to all
[06:17] <ubuntugeek> I'll send you guys all a PM today or tomorrow explaining how the team signup works on the forums
[06:17] <bodhi_zazen_work> Thanks ravtux :p
[06:18] <Vorian> congrats bodhi_zazen_work !
[06:18] <highvoltage> congrats!
[06:18] <ubuntugeek> and how to approve members etc.
[06:18] <ravtux> bodhi_zazen_work: awesome!
[06:18] <ubuntugeek> ok whats the next agenda item
[06:18] <frodon> congrats bodhi_zazen_work ;)
[06:18] <forumsmatthew> shall we open up the backyard
[06:18] <ubuntugeek> ambassadors, anyone here to discuss this?
[06:18] <forumsmatthew> lol
[06:18] <PriceChild> Hey I am
[06:18] <forumsmatthew> good call
[06:18] <MikeB-> forumsmatthew: I have not had nearly enough beer for that discussion yet
[06:19] <ravtux> ambassador here
[06:19] <ravtux> potential
[06:19] <ubuntugeek> saving the backyard for last :)
[06:19] <forumsmatthew> okay
[06:19] <PriceChild> "best till last?" ;)
[06:19] <PriceChild> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumAmbassadors/
[06:19] <PriceChild> That's the link to the spec as it stands now
[06:19] <PriceChild> I wish I'd remembered the meeting and poked ubuntu_demon and maniacmusician about this FC meeting.
[06:19] <MikeB-> is ubuntu-demon still busy, I know that was his baby
[06:20] <forumsmatthew> I like the idea
[06:20] <PriceChild> Yeah... I don't want to pretend I've contributed to this anywhere near as much as UD and maniac
[06:20] <PriceChild> ping tsmithe
[06:20] <forumsmatthew> will the name cause this problem: "The Forum Ambassadors will also *not* be responsible for resolving inter-user and user/staff grievances. We have a resolution centre for that (Also FC and CC in the future)."
[06:20] <tsmithe> PriceChild, yeah - i'm a bit busy :S
[06:20] <ubuntugeek> I really like the idea and I we can help facilitate their needs as best as we can
[06:20] <PriceChild> Basically We're looking for feedback on the spec
[06:20] <tsmithe> bzr is a pain
[06:21] <tsmithe> PriceChild, could you tell me how it goes?
[06:21] <PriceChild> tsmithe, will do
[06:21] <ubuntugeek> forumsmatthew: agreed
[06:21] <tsmithe> thanks, appreciate it
[06:21] <PriceChild> A big point would be how much you would endorse us :)
[06:21] <PriceChild> For example the setting up of the subforum etc.
[06:22] <ubuntugeek> pricechild: not a problem
[06:22] <forumsmatthew> I really like the idea...I'm not sure the name is as fitting as it could be. That's my only hesitation on the spec, etc.
[06:22] <PriceChild> To be brutally honest... I'm completely and utterly fed up of drafting... and want to get the ball rolling in time for feisty+1
[06:22] <PriceChild> Hehe the name can be changed :)
[06:22] <ubuntugeek> forumsmatthew: yeah the name might be confusing.. but in regards to the forums supporting the ambassadors I dont see any issues with that
[06:23] <forumsmatthew> Maybe "forums-developer ambassadors"
[06:23] <forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, agreed
[06:23] <ubuntugeek> its about time honestly that something like this gets going.
[06:23] <forumsmatthew> u-g +1
[06:23] <forumsmatthew> I've read the spec. My only comment is that I like it.
[06:24] <ravtux> +1 "forums-developer ambassadors" name
[06:25] <PriceChild> ah yes "appointed by forum admins"
[06:25] <MikeB-> we should have someone mention this at the Tech Board Meeting
[06:25] <forumsmatthew> FA Leaders are appointed by Forum Admins. FA Members nominations (and recommendations) are put forward to Forum Admins by FA Leaders and approved by Forum Admins.
[06:25] <mako> yeah, forums-developer seems a little bit more accurate, but it's just a semantic difference
[06:26] <forumsmatthew> anything else we need to discuss with this?
[06:26] <MikeB-> nope, glad see it happening
[06:26] <ubuntugeek> nope not from me.. when its time and you need the subforum etc just send me a PM
[06:27] <PriceChild> Ok good good....
[06:27] <PriceChild> I'll email ud and maniac with the snippet of this conversation
[06:27] <ubuntugeek> sounds good
[06:28] <ravtux> :-)
[06:28] <ubuntugeek> Alrightly.. vorian whats next?
[06:28] <Vorian> put on your riot gear! its time for the backyard.
[06:28] <Vorian> Ryan Troy
[06:28] <Vorian> 
[06:28] <Vorian> RFC on the future of the Backyard
[06:28] <Vorian> Discussion on the purpose and future of the Backyard
[06:29] <ubuntugeek> Ah yes our lovely backyard :)
[06:29] <Vorian> hehe
[06:29] <ubuntugeek> where the children tend to not play nice
[06:29] <ravtux> very un-ubuntu like
[06:30] <JayTee52> agreed
[06:30] <ubuntugeek> ravtux: explain?
[06:30] <forumsmatthew> okay, I'm back
[06:30] <forumsmatthew> connection problems
[06:30] <MikeB-> I think the backyard is important in a weird way, it is a pressure value for that type of chatter and keep other sub-forum cleaner
[06:30] <ubuntugeek> One of the major issues with the backyard is people A. not reading the rules.
[06:31] <forumsmatthew> agreed
[06:31] <forumsmatthew> I think with consistent enforcement we are doing better
[06:31] <ubuntugeek> I think if we can find a happy medium and direct people to read the rules and understand them there wouldnt be so much drama.
[06:31] <forumsmatthew> even this week
[06:31] <SD-Plissken> What rules? if you read some of those threads it would seem there are no rules.
[06:31] <MikeB-> that is a problem in our business, no one read the EULA:)
[06:31] <forumsmatthew> week's crud we're doing well
[06:32] <ubuntugeek> So, is the general consensus that the backyard is an important aspect but we need to improve the visibility and understanding how it works?
[06:32] <forumsmatthew> I think if we eliminate it we don't have any place for the "not appropriate for the cafe, but not really bad" topics
[06:32] <PriceChild> +1 ubuntugeek
[06:32] <forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, that's what I'm thinking
[06:33] <forumsmatthew> +1
[06:33] <MikeB-> +1
[06:33] <SD-Plissken> I don't understand why we as Linux support forum have to support politically based threads,and other rants.
[06:33] <Vorian> +1
[06:33] <SD-Plissken> -1
[06:33] <PriceChild> SD-Plissken, we don't support it...
[06:33] <forumsmatthew> SD-Plissken, because Linux attracts people interested in politics...free software is often a political topic
[06:33] <MikeB-> SD-Plissken: people want community with people they like
[06:33] <forumsmatthew> because people like to be in relationship, not just get tech support
[06:33] <ravtux> I think it's important to remind members that it is moderated and not mf
[06:33] <SD-Plissken> The heck you say PriceChild. You have a section for this crap to be posted that is a form of support
[06:33] <bapoumba> backyard is a drawback to members feeling at home on the forums
[06:34] <forumsmatthew> because adults talk about issues
[06:34] <PriceChild> SD-Plissken, In my view its more of a place where it can be pushed to the side
[06:34] <_MMA_> bapoumba: +1
[06:34] <PriceChild> SD-Plissken, if we get rid of the backyard, it only appears further in the cafe
[06:34] <ravtux> I have talked with new members who are afriad to post in the beginners section much less the backyard
[06:35] <ravtux> bapoumba: +1
[06:35] <MikeB-> phone brb
[06:35] <forumsmatthew> ravtux, is that because of the existence of the backyard, though?
[06:35] <SD-Plissken> forumsmatthew if you going to take that stance then you need to remove the rules since it's a place for adults to vent. I mean if your going to make it feel home like might as well go all the way.
[06:35] <forumsmatthew> no, I don't have to remove the rules
[06:35] <forumsmatthew> people can have a discussion
[06:35] <ravtux> forumsmatthew: because of post be members
[06:35] <forumsmatthew> of difficult
[06:35] <forumsmatthew> topics
[06:35] <ravtux> forumsmatthew: who tend to bully
[06:35] <forumsmatthew> without forgetting to be polite and use manners
[06:35] <ravtux> forumsmatthew: which the backyard breeds
[06:36] <forumsmatthew> the people who are posting this way in the backyard are being dealt with, aren't they?
[06:36] <forumsmatthew> brb, phone
[06:36] <MikeB-> back
[06:36] <ravtux> forumsmatthew: yes, I just agree with that it makes new members uneasy
[06:36] <SD-Plissken> The yard needs to go along with the topics.  Unless your willing to have atleast two mods who job is to police that section.
[06:37] <mako> if it's not too late
[06:37] <ravtux> SD-Plissken: strong agreement with stronger moderation if the backyard stays
[06:37] <forumsmatthew> back
[06:37] <PriceChild> SD-Plissken, I think one of the great things about being a mod is that we aren't expected to fulfil quota of our activities
[06:37] <forumsmatthew> mako: please speak up
[06:37] <mako> my general feeling is that places like the by are probably worth putting up with a certain amount of trouble
[06:38] <mako> because they help turn technical communities into real communities
[06:38] <ravtux> SD-Plissken: we don't need a mod-free forum
[06:38] <MikeB-> mako +1
[06:38] <mako> so on planet, the one thing we ask is that people consider providing a whole feed with more than just ubuntu related stuff
[06:38] <ravtux> at ubuntuforums.org
[06:38] <mako> which may seem kind of weird
[06:38] <bapoumba> ravtux, ^^ they have mods on mod-free ;)
[06:38] <mako> and some people are comfortable doing it
[06:38] <mako> but you get to know each other as people, and not just hackers on the same project
[06:38] <forumsmatthew> mako, I like seeing people's vacation pics and baby stories pop up on planet--it's humanizing
[06:38] <mako> and sometimes you don't like what you find ;)
[06:39] <ubuntugeek> mako: agreed
[06:39] <mako> there have been some political stuff that there caused problems
[06:39] <mako> all the same stuff that gives you crap in the by
[06:39] <ravtux> bapoumba: we just need to enforce that the backyard does not become a place to voice hate
[06:39] <mako> obviously, there are lines
[06:39] <JayTee52> ravtux +1
[06:39] <bapoumba> ravtux, +1, and bear with complains
[06:39] <forumsmatthew> I think we just need to make the lines clear(er?)
[06:39] <PriceChild> Could we maybe take a look over the current rules?
[06:39] <ravtux> the stuff that gives trouble is reoccuring and has been effectively dealt with in the past
[06:40] <PriceChild> (backyard rules)
[06:40] <mako> and there plenty of rss feeds in existance that would *not* be ok for planet, or stuff that does not belong in the by
[06:40] <mako> but while it's a pain to have a more open space, i think it really serves your community to have it
[06:40] <SD-Plissken> The by serves to only allow posts that seem to incite fighting. Rules are ignored,and when enforced come under fire by those posting that section.
[06:40] <mako> that's my very general feeling
[06:40] <forumsmatthew> Again, I will volunteer to oversee any adjusting to the backyard rules we need and review changes with the rest of the FC for approval
[06:40] <MikeB-> how hard would being for people to have to check a box and agree to the Forums CoC and Ubuntu CoC when posting to the Backyard?
[06:41] <Vorian> I think that the phrase "lightly moderatored area" is what causes problems
[06:41] <bapoumba> MikeB-, +1
[06:41] <ubuntugeek> mikeb: not hard
[06:41] <SD-Plissken> forumsmatteh you don't understand no matter what you revise in the rules they will continue to be ignored.
[06:41] <JayTee52> MikeB, excellent idea
[06:41] <PriceChild> MikeB-, Like a checkbox you have to tick every time you post?
[06:41] <ravtux> Vorian: agreed it should be Strongly moderated
[06:41] <MikeB-> PriceChild: yup
[06:41] <PriceChild> I like that... rather than a one time thing :)
[06:42] <ubuntugeek> perhaps just removing the lightly moderated text
[06:42] <ravtux> ubuntugeek: +1
[06:42] <PriceChild> ubuntugeek, +1
[06:42] <forumsmatthew> Vorian, good point
[06:42] <ubuntugeek> we cant please everyone specially with 237,000 users
[06:42] <Vorian> ubuntugeek, yep
[06:42] <MikeB-> ubuntugeek: +1
[06:43] <ubuntugeek> OK, so I will remove the lightly moderated text and put up a general "agree to the rules" system for the backyard
[06:43] <MikeB-> consider we have 237,000 users the backyard is not that crazy:)
[06:43] <ubuntugeek> that the plan?
[06:43] <SD-Plissken> MikeB are you kidding come on not everyone values the CoC as those in here may. It easy to click that and still get into fights in the thread. fine you ban that person for breaking the rules yet they are still able to  re log in under a different ip and user name.
[06:43] <MikeB-> sounds like
[06:43] <forumsmatthew> works for me
[06:43] <Vorian> sound good
[06:43] <forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, +1
[06:43] <ubuntugeek> mikeb: right :) the problem is that some topics in the backyard touch on personal issues/beliefts of others. its really a catch 22.
[06:43] <ubuntugeek> ok +1
[06:44] <ubuntugeek> wasnt to bad of a conversation :)
[06:44] <Vorian> hehe
[06:44] <Vorian> feel free to take your riot gear off now.
[06:44] <ubuntugeek> anything else?
[06:44] <ravtux> what about new mods
[06:44] <Vorian> kiwi's proposal???
[06:44] <ubuntugeek> we are going to deal with new mods in march
[06:44] <forumsmatthew> kiwi's not here
[06:44] <ravtux> ok
[06:44] <MikeB-> SD-Plissken: I wish I had a good answer for that
[06:45] <ubuntugeek> lets move kiwi's proposal to march
[06:45] <ravtux> ok
[06:45] <MikeB-> sounds good
[06:45] <Vorian> ubuntugeek, done
[06:45] <forumsmatthew> agreed
[06:45] <PriceChild> SD-Plissken, the point is that if they click... they agree to the rules and therefore the consequences if they violate these rules
[06:45] <ubuntugeek> I think we are going to arrange the FC meetings to a different time so more of us can attend. Dates to be posted in the near future.
[06:45] <PriceChild> SD-Plissken, it makes it easier for us to enfoce
[06:45] <ravtux> anything else,....my wife wants me to clean the bathroom
[06:45] <Vorian> thats all of the agenda....
[06:45] <mako> ubuntugeek: your proposal sounds reasonable to me :)
[06:46] <PriceChild> Any new mods being considered?
[06:46] <ravtux> perhaps on a Sunday evening?
[06:46] <ubuntugeek> Thanks all.. Grats to Mike for his CC nomination and thanks to everyone for hammering out the issues in the previous meeting.
[06:46] <forumsmatthew> and to all selected as team leads
[06:46] <ubuntugeek> ravtux: not sure yet
[06:46] <mako> thanks for listening to me spout, it was cool to be able to watch a meeting
[06:46] <MikeB-> yes thanks all, and congrats to the new teams
[06:46] <mako> i'm totally thrilled you guys have gotten off to such a running start
[06:46] <Vorian> ubuntugeek, I'll have the wiki updated later tonight
[06:46] <ravtux> congrats to all
[06:46] <ubuntugeek> mako: only our second meeting so its still rough around the edges :P
[06:47] <forumsmatthew> thanks, mako
[06:47] <ubuntugeek> thanks vorian..
[06:47] <SD-Plissken> PriceChild enforce what CoC please like i said even if you ban them for the offense they can still re-log in under a different ip user name
[06:47] <ravtux> Vorian: thanks for the reasonable solution to the backyard
[06:47] <Vorian> thanks ravtux :)
[06:47] <forumsmatthew> SD-Plissken, and the new accounts get dealt with as we saw this week...
[06:47] <ubuntugeek> sd-plissken: not for long.. I am working on a new module to block this kind of stuff
[06:47] <PriceChild> ubuntugeek, hehe :)
[06:47] <forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, ooh...cool
[06:47] <ravtux> take care all have a great week
[06:48] <Vorian> anything else?
[06:48] <MikeB-> ubuntugeek: woot
[06:48] <ubuntugeek> Nothing from me..
[06:48] <Vorian> ----------------->End Forum Council Meeting<-----------------
[06:48] <forumsmatthew> Vorian, I think we're done
[06:48] <PriceChild> Oh ubuntugeek could I pm you for a minute about ubuntu-uk?
[06:48] <ravtux> for March bodhi.zazen for mod
[06:48] <bapoumba> just a thank you for taking me onboard :)
[06:48] <_MMA_> Hey guys. How do I get something talked about at the next meeting?
[06:48] <Vorian> _MMA_, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
[06:48] <_MMA_> \m/
[06:48] <MikeB-> later all work calls
[06:49] <forumsmatthew> bye, everyone
[06:49] <Vorian> bye MikeB-
[06:49] <forumsmatthew> family is calling and food is ready
[06:49] <ravtux> wife calls
[06:49] <ravtux> bye all
[06:49] <ravtux> matthew pm later ok if need be
[06:49] <eft> leave
[06:49] <eft> quit
[06:50] <eft> doh
[06:51] <bapoumba> bye then
[08:14] <jean> hi
[08:15] <PriceChild> Hi jean ?
[08:15] <AlexLatchford> :)
[08:15] <jean> yes
[08:15] <jean> Lord Illidan on the forums
[08:15] <PriceChild> Ah jean, we ended about an hour and a half ago sorry :)
[08:16] <jean> I know I'm late
[08:16] <jean> what went on?
[08:16] <PriceChild> jean, you got selected as the Hardware Team Leader though: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=360619
[08:17] <jean> ouch
[08:17] <jean> 10x but I cannot possibly accept the offer
[08:18] <jean> I'm about to start 3 months of exams :S
[08:18] <jean> though I am extremely honoured to hear that I had been selected
[08:19] <PriceChild> Ouch
[08:19] <PriceChild> Best you pm ubuntugeek then I suppose :(
[08:19] <jean> k
[08:19] <jean> I won't be active for some time
[08:19] <jean> also, I'm not using Ubuntu anymore
[08:20] <PriceChild> :(
[08:20] <PriceChild> Heresey!!! :)
[08:20] <jean> ah well
[08:20] <jean> as long as it is linux :)
[08:20] <PriceChild> Hehe :)
[08:20] <jean> hey, even RavTux doesn't use Ubuntu :)
[08:20] <PriceChild> shh ;)
[08:22] <jean> I find Zenwalk faster :)
[08:23] <jean> i got to go continue studying
[08:23] <jean> Don't get me wrong, PriceChild
[08:24] <jean> I love Ubuntu..It was the distro that really got me started with Linux
[08:24] <PriceChild> Haha don't be silly, I've got nothing against you running other OS's :)
[08:24] <jean> and if it wasn't for these damned exams, I'd accept without hesitation
[08:24] <PriceChild> and yes work is infinitely more important than ubuntu :)
[08:24] <jean> but I got some more priorities...if I don't pass these exams no career, no money, I shoot myself
[08:25] <jean> and for what it's worth, I'd recommend Ubuntu over Zenwalk to newbies anyday
[08:26] <PriceChild> hehe good good :)
[08:26] <PriceChild> Well good luck :)
[08:26] <jean> 10x, I need it :)
[08:27] <jean> cya in summer :S
[08:58] <Lure> @schedule Ljubljana
[08:58] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Ljubljana: Current meeting: Technical Board | 14 Feb 11:00: MOTU | 14 Feb 21:00: Edubuntu | 15 Feb 06:00: IRC Operators | 15 Feb 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Feb 16:00: Xubuntu
[09:37] <mdz> (FYI: I haven't been able to reach any other tech board members, so we don't have a quorum)
[09:39] <asac> mdz: you think they still might pop up or is the meeting officially cancelled?
[09:40] <mdz> asac: Scott is definitely not available, and I have heard nothing from sabdfl or mjg59
[09:40] <asac> mdz: ok, then I think I will sign off now :)
[09:40] <mdz> asac: apologies for the inconvenience
[09:40] <asac> mdz: no problems ... every 2 weeks? thats fine.
[09:41] <mdz> asac: by the next meeting, you'll have some Ubuntu uploads under your belt, so that will be good anyway
[09:41] <asac> k
[09:49] <sabdfl> evening all
[09:50] <ajmitch> hi
[09:51] <sabdfl> asac: ping
[09:52] <asac> sabdfl: pong
[09:53] <sabdfl> asac: if we can get some time from mdz, perhaps we could handle your -core-dev application now?
[09:53] <asac> sure ...
[09:53] <mdz> I have only 6 minutes before an important conference call
[09:54] <sabdfl> asac, do you have a few sentences prepared?
[09:54] <asac> shall I go ahead and provide some infos on me?
[09:54] <sabdfl> go for it
[09:54] <asac> Hi all!
[09:54] <asac> I applied to become (core-)dev team member as I think it is important for my work on mozilla applications to be able to upload to main and to be able to do proper bug triage with full control on all bugs related to firefox et al.
[09:54] <asac> I did setup a tiny wiki page to introduce myself on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlexanderSack
[09:54] <asac> If joining the team so quickly - taking kind of a shortcut - is against all common procedures, I would offer to cancel my application. I /can/ go the standard community way after all.
[09:54] <asac> Obviously, I prefer to get all privileges I need and start to work on my main duties right away ;).
[09:54] <asac> What do you think? Any questions?
[09:55] <sabdfl> i am quite happy with the idea of giving someone a fast-track for a defined set of packages
[09:55] <mdz> note, I sent mail just now with information about joining the QA team (which is sufficient for bug triage)
[09:55] <sabdfl> i think mdz is less so
[09:56] <sabdfl> i would actually like us to support htis in the LP upload security model, though we don't yet do so
[09:56] <asac> as my current task fill me quite well I doubt that I will come to upload other packages that are not mozilla related.
[09:56] <mdz> asac: in general, we are happy to fast-track developers with substantial Debian experience, with only limited Ubuntu experience, because of the similar skills involved
[09:56] <sabdfl> asac: would you be willing to commit to just uploading the moz* set until a more general -core-dev approval was reasonable?
[09:57] <asac> so there is no danger that I will touch anything else for the time being.
[09:57] <sabdfl> i would be self-enforced, since there is no restriction on main uploads beyond membership in -core-dev
[09:57] <mdz> asac: did Colin review the application process with you?
[09:57] <sabdfl> i think it would be good for debian/ubuntu relations too
[09:57] <asac> sabdfl: sure ... as I said ... I won't touch other packages
[09:58] <asac> mdz: he gave me some hints today ... e.g. that i should upload an initial package and prepare a wiki page.
[09:58] <mdz> right, it's usually best to have done at least some uploads which have been peer-reviewed by an existing developer
[09:58] <asac> mdz: but no thorough review.
[09:58] <mjg59> Apologies for the insane lateness
[09:59] <sabdfl> mjg59: how do you feel about giving permission for someone to upload just a restricted set of packages to main?
[09:59] <asac> i did an initial upload of enigmail today (sponsored by martin)
[09:59] <sabdfl> upside is he's a DD with lots of experience
[09:59] <asac> mjg59: hi
[09:59] <sabdfl> tricky part is he's #canonical now and we don't as a rule fast-track them
[09:59] <mdz> asac: is martin here?
[09:59] <mjg59> sabdfl: My personal feeling is that anyone with the ability to upload to main can distrupt pretty much anyone else who can upload to main
[10:00] <asac> mdz: he left for dinner already
[10:00] <asac> unfortunately
[10:00] <sabdfl> mjg59: right, we don't have the ability to restrict to package sets except voluntarily
[10:00] <sabdfl> and an upload can disrupt a release or milestone easily
[10:00] <mjg59> And therefore, unless the set of packages is a very carefully chosen subset, the decision process should be pretty much identical
[10:01] <sabdfl> moz* is carefully chosen but totally critical and potentially disruptive :-)
[10:01] <mjg59> More socially, introducing new processes for someone who is on-staff is likely to engender some feeling of ill-balance
[10:01] <sabdfl> i'm ok deferring the approval for now
[10:01] <sabdfl> for that very reason
[10:01] <sabdfl> ogra: we have unique processes
[10:01] <sabdfl> it's familiar packaging, but new protocols, conventions, tla's
[10:02] <sabdfl> someone could easily just make a mistake
[10:02] <mdz> even where the target is a specific set of packages, I think it's important to have confirmation of work that has been done through a sponsor
[10:02] <sabdfl> even experienced DD's need to show some insight and interest in the ubuntu community
[10:02] <sabdfl> before getting +1 on MOTU and -core-dev
[10:02] <sabdfl> so i think it would be wrong to fast-track a #canonical person
[10:02] <mjg59> With hindsight, I regret the fact that I never worked through MOTU
[10:03] <sabdfl> mjg59: i don't think MOTU existed when you first got involved ;-)
[10:03] <mdz> and that we should be careful not to show a bias for people employed by Canonical, except insofar as it's supported by fact (e.g., time and inclination to contribute)
[10:03] <sabdfl> right
[10:03] <mjg59> So while I'm clearly in favour of better support for our Mozilla packages
[10:03] <sabdfl> ok, asac, do you mind continuing to bounce things through other -core-dev, and getting going with dholbach &co afap
[10:04] <mjg59> My feeling is that having it sponsored in the normal way is a better bet
[10:04] <sabdfl> agreed
[10:04] <asac> as I said ... going the long way is fine with me.
[10:04] <sabdfl> shouldn't be too long, you get to do this 9-5 :-)
[10:05] <sabdfl> tada. fastest TBmeeting EVA
[10:05] <mjg59> sabdfl: Not /strictly/ true
[10:05] <ogra> not true ...
[10:05] <ogra> :)
[10:05] <mjg59> We've had one take < 5 minutes
[10:05] <sabdfl> bugger
[10:05] <mdz> (sorry, I'm on a phone call now)
[10:05] <asac> bye and thanks for the time.
[10:05] <sabdfl> mjg59: how are the flies?
[10:06] <mjg59> Flies should be in bed by June
[10:07] <sabdfl> euphemistic for "sleeping forever on a bed of cotton wool and formalin"?
[10:07] <mjg59> Something like that