troy_sNot exactly.12:18
troy_sA) the svg should be smaller12:18
troy_sB) setting gnome's wallpaper to 'zoom' accomodates proper scaling (albeit not 100% perfect composition, but c'est la vie)12:18
kwwiitroy_s: this is about including different aspect ratios for the usplash12:19
troy_swasn't there an issue with aspects for usplash?12:20
troy_sas in you can't always know that it will return from power saving with proper aspect?12:21
kwwiinope that had to do with the color depth12:26
kwwiibut that issue is solved as well12:26
kwwiilooks like we'll be using 16 or 24bit soon12:26
troy_s16 is a waste of time12:26
troy_sworse than 25612:27
troy_suh right12:27
kwwiithe bootsplash takes 16 of 24 from a jpeg12:27
kwwiiand I helped write it12:27
kwwiibelieve me I know12:27
troy_s16bpp == 55512:27
troy_sso you are talking colour banding12:27
kwwiiand that is worse than only using 256 colors?12:28
troy_sonly time 16 bits comes in ahead is when you have a plethora of colours... even then, it is ugly.12:28
troy_s256 palettized.12:28
troy_sgreater range.12:28
kwwiidude, my experience proves otherwise12:28
kwwiibut we can agree to disagree12:28
troy_son anything with gradients, 16bpp is simply awful.12:28
kwwiinot if you do it right12:29
troy_s32 colours to express a gradient is not exactly optimal.12:29
troy_seven if you dither the piss out of it.12:29
kwwiiit is jpeg, so no dithering12:29
troy_swtf does jpeg have to do with dithering?12:29
kwwiiahhh, you mean dithering the gradient in the app itself12:30
kwwiianyway...I'll be happy to have it12:31
kwwiijust look at the bootsplash artwork that is available12:31
kwwiiand then look at the usplash artwork12:31
troy_sthat's an awful method to evaluate.  just look at the bulk of work out there in general.  ;)12:34
troy_susplash to bootsplash is like comparing borked to borken.12:34
kwwiitroy_s: the only real difference (other than the box and text rendering in the bootsplash) is the color depth12:39
kwwiitime for bed12:40
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nysosymhi there08:16
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kwwiihey man11:16
kwwiihowdy darkmatter, nysosym and everyone else :-)11:17
nysosymhi kwwii my friend :D11:18
nysosymand hio darkmatter :))))11:18
nysosymherd 4 comes out today?11:19
kwwiiwell, today or tomorrow11:20
kwwiibut it is being made now11:20
darkmatterand a good ol' top o' the mornin' to ya' too kwwii :)11:20
nysosymnice, i hope heard 4 does work on my machine, the installer from the daily from yesterday crashs, at loading partition manager11:21
nysosymbut madwifi and my sound was working great :)11:21
kwwiiyeah, it didn't work too well on my machine either11:22
nysosymkwwii, i have started to work on media keys in human look now :D11:23
kwwiinysosym: cool :-)11:26
kwwiiI was supposed to be having a conf call with my boss11:26
kwwiibut it appears he is still sleeping :p11:26
nysosymhehe :D11:27
kwwiieither that or he meant 11 at night11:27
nysosymok at this time i will although go to bed ^^11:27
kwwiiI guess everyone has seen this: http://www.isity.net/blog/11:28
kwwiithat is what we need to work up to11:28
nysosymcan i ask, why do u tried to call him? :)11:28
kwwiibecause I don't want to pay for it :-)11:28
kwwiiand it is not an important call11:28
kwwiimore to give him the feeling that he knows what is going on I guess11:29
nysosymwow, the fedora artwork is amazing! O.o11:29
nysosymno reason to switch, but amazing :D11:30
darkmatternice.. is that the official artwork????11:30
=== darkmatter attacks fedoras server to scavenge up the files :D
nysosymit seams so11:31
kwwiishe has done it for the last 3 releases or so11:32
kwwiiamazing stuff11:32
kwwiiand it is based off of community themes11:32
kwwiiand flickr pics11:33
nysosymyes, very consistent and professional :)11:34
nysosymit seams that the ballon, is one of the new fedora metaphors11:34
nysosymdarkmatter, i think we shouldn't be envious, we should create something better ;)11:36
kwwiinote however that it was not done by a group of people11:38
nysosymi think we should add more african like stuff, i like brown, very warm and beautiful, but more typical african stuff would be although nice11:39
nysosymkwwii, sure, but i love to speak in plural ^11:39
kwwiinysosym: actually, I think we could do something like that as a group11:39
kwwiisince there are so many pieces11:40
kwwiibut we need a team that takes direction well11:40
kwwiinot 5 poeple with 10 different ideas11:40
kwwiithat is good at the start11:40
kwwiibut when we have one look down it takes everyone walking down the same path to create a unified look11:40
nysosymyes, well formed specifications11:41
nysosymi had a conversation with troy_s for a longer time, that we need more specifications, like apple and ms11:42
kwwiiwell, there is also a matter of time11:42
nysosymkwwii, sure, what we should do is increasing the specifications from version to version. The way that we go in the history, but with more defination, we shouldn't try to make in every realese a revolution in graphic style11:45
nysosymfor sure not for the end of life, i think every 2-3 years we should create something completely new11:46
nysosymor more years ^^11:47
kwwiinot sure I would call them spefications, more like guidelines11:48
nysosymkwwii, yes, thats the much better word ;)11:48
nysosyma strong line to work on for 2-3 years with enough elbowroom for ideas11:49
kwwiiwell, the first part is to get an art director11:51
kwwiiand that is in the works11:51
nysosymi vote for u ;)11:52
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kwwiiI would have to move to london for that11:52
nysosymwhy that? *confused*11:53
kwwiidamn inkscape just died11:53
kwwiiwell, there is several reasons11:54
kwwii1) to be in the office to work with the marketing people, etc11:54
nysosymthe headquarter of canoncial is in london?11:55
kwwii2) it is hard to do that kind of coordination from another country, you need to see the printed material, etc. when it is happening11:55
nysosymok all clear now :D11:55
nysosymok but who is in london?11:55
nysosymor other, which person is in the inner circle for the art-director?11:56
nysosymand why does inkscape die?11:58
kwwiino idea who they are looking at11:59
kwwiiI know they want to hire one, that is all11:59
kwwiiand that will be my boss11:59
kwwiiinkscape dies because it is poorly written software11:59
nysosymhmmm, a fresh air in the ubuntu-art work?11:59
nysosymkwwii, yes, that's true it's slow, but free ^^12:00
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nysosymxara is very nice and fast and i love the way for transitions :D12:00
nysosymbut svg support is miserable12:00
darkmatterxara's ok...12:01
darkmatterinkscapes better :P12:01
nysosymdarkmatter, not in all ways ;)12:01
nysosymohh i will have a lunch now :)12:01
kwwiisee you12:01
=== kwwii has a call
kwwiibe back later12:02
nysosymhav fun ;)12:02
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nysosymhi klepas12:15
klepashey, sup?12:16
klepaswhat's up :)12:25
nysosymahh ok, fedora has a good artwork ^^12:28
nysosymdamn, inkscape should have a autosave option ^^12:44
kwwiinysosym: well, when it crashes it saves a file12:54
kwwiiso that is at least something12:54
nysosymkwwii, yes, but not in any time, "saving failed" ^^12:55
nysosymno problem, i have again the same status :)12:56
klepasnysosym: yea, fedora has some nice work in it :)12:58
klepasnysosym: is that your blog?12:58
nysosymklepas,no, i love ubuntu :D12:59
=== klepas needs to get in touch with that dude
kwwiiklepas: it is a woman :-)01:00
nysosymwoman? O.o01:00
kwwiiI will shut up, not sure what I am talking about01:00
kwwiiI meant the person doing the RH stuff01:00
nysosymno :D01:00
nysosymplease don't shut up ^^01:00
klepasoh, i jumped to conclusions01:00
klepaskwwii: thanks01:00
kwwiiklepas: np01:00
kwwiishe has a masters degree in design from harvard01:01
klepasfar out01:01
klepasi definitely need to say hi :)01:01
kwwiiyeah, made me feel small pretty quickly01:01
kwwiithe neatest part about that artwork is that it is based on community themes and flickr pics01:02
klepas*cough* unlike ubuntu *cough*01:03
nysosymklepas hmm?01:04
nysosymubuntu has many work from the community inside :D01:04
klepasnothing that is default01:04
nysosymklepas, my emblems for instance ^^01:04
kwwiiklepas: that will change in the future01:07
klepasthat's the plan01:07
nysosymkwwii, play button, what do u think?01:08
kwwiinysosym: nice, probably needs a bit more saturation01:10
nysosymno problem :D01:10
=== klepas exports a 5867x3373 PNG :)
kwwiiklepas: have you noticed how slow inkscape is at rendering stuff with blur?01:11
kwwiiit took me 3.5 hours to render the current wallpaper01:11
nysosymis slow, but so slow? ^^01:11
klepaskwwii: yep01:13
klepasconsidering the work i am rendering has over 30 large blurs... this one will take a fair while01:13
klepasthis work has iirc 2000+ mouse-created objects01:14
nysosymkwwii, better? http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zeichnung222ma3.png01:15
nysosymhmm i need a graphic tablet...01:16
nysosymanother stupid bug in inkscape01:20
nysosymthe dotted line should be on the last end of the triangle01:24
nysosymdamn, icon creation eats so much time :D01:53
nysosymkwwii, has u seen my resolutions for usplash yesterday?01:54
kwwiinysosym: nope01:54
kwwiiI mean yes01:54
kwwiibut that is too many01:54
nysosymhmm can usplash scaling down?01:55
kwwiiI brought that up as an issue at the meeting tonight01:55
kwwiinope, it only scales up01:55
kwwiiI'll let the developers figure it out01:55
kwwiiI guess at least including a 1280x800 would be a good start01:56
nysosymyes for widescreen users01:56
nysosymi think usplash would be better as xml base, with a center option. :D01:56
nysosymin that way u could create a little ubuntu image which looks good in every resolution ^^01:57
nysosymand this would reduce space :)01:59
kwwiiwell, this is not really our decision02:12
kwwiibut it looks like it will support 16bit graphics02:12
kwwiiwhich is great02:12
kwwiias we can then do full screen themes02:12
nysosymcool, maybe in the next release? :D02:15
nysosymok kwwii i will go to work now, hope to see u in the next time :)02:20
nysosymhave a nice day ;)02:20
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troy_sgreets all.05:22
troy_swow... imagine that... a clearly communicated vision in open source software05:32
troy_sredhat gets it right05:32
troy_sLook a motif!05:32
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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:troy_s] : Welcome to #ubuntu-artwork. Fedora gets it right -- http://www.isity.net/blog/
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kwwiiof course that vision was done by one person, not a team05:55
troy_skwwii It is possible to do that sort of work within a team.06:00
troy_skwwii I have seen it.06:01
troy_skwwii I think it is simply the fact that she knows all the beats.  She is well versed in the creative process.06:01
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troy_sthat is quite simply the first piece of free software work that I have seen that properly fleshes out creative ideas.06:03
troy_sthe communication factor is functionally clear, the integrated use of a motif, the palette issues, etc.06:04
troy_sAnd besides, if your argument was that a single person achieves this level of quality, look to all the other single person endeavours out there.  It certainly can work as a single person (look at the bulk of the rubbish on *look), but it too can work in a team based scenario (Apple comes to mind) for larger projects.06:13
troy_skwwii Did you get the wallpaper rendered bro?06:14
kwwiitroy_s: the fact thaqt her stuff is based on community themes and flickr artwork amazed me06:18
kwwiiactually, my point was that it is harder to do it in a team06:19
troy_sshe simply looked outside at the 'proposals'06:19
kwwiimore people = more problems06:19
troy_skwwii It is absoultely tough.06:19
troy_sbut it also is simply a matter of numbers06:19
troy_slike a game of chess06:19
kwwiiman this connection is killing me, gonna restart my client06:19
troy_sone player plays against two solid players, the one player will probably lose.06:19
troy_sok chat in a sec06:19
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troy_sGood now?06:20
kwwiimy server is slow for some reason06:21
kwwiiand typing was hell06:21
troy_sI think as grown up folks interested in art and design etc06:21
troy_sIt is key to see the essence of what someone is trying to communicate through a mock06:21
troy_swhich she clearly did06:21
troy_sif you look at the source of the inspiration, it is very clunky06:21
troy_sand probably wouldn't get a second look by most folks.  but she simply saw through the actual execution to the root of the idea.06:22
troy_swhich i suppose is a skill unto itself.06:22
troy_sI know I try to work on that sort of approach every day -- try to see what the creator of a piece is seeing in the work that 'works' for them.06:22
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kwwiiyeah, she has a masters degree in design from harvard :p06:23
troy_sIt is a terrific body of work, well fleshed out.06:23
troy_sYeah I should get my MA06:23
troy_sI have been putting it off for too long...06:23
troy_sI really want to spend a year or so working on form.06:23
kwwiialthough it looks awesome I must say that the wallpaper is a bit too complicated for a default06:24
troy_sI think it is a little on the contrasty06:24
troy_sI have been experimenting with that sort of thing, and I think 'business' is nice in a wallpaper if you can meet the06:25
troy_scontrast requirements06:25
troy_s(eg test icons against areas etc.)06:25
troy_sthat said06:25
troy_saudience rules all06:25
troy_sand her body of work is quite clearly aimed at a particular audience06:25
troy_swho cares nothing about contrast issues.06:25
troy_sAnd I am partial to that thinking.06:26
troy_subuntu still needs to define a clear target audience06:26
troy_sand then a clear set of objectives from top down.06:26
kwwiinote that the artwork is for fedora, not RH itself06:26
troy_sexactly ;)06:26
troy_sfedora being the 'desktop' end now.06:26
troy_si would expect that if she were to design for RH06:26
troy_sshe would probably attempt to address the business sector with the design.06:27
troy_s(see on a bank terminal)06:27
kwwiiwell in about 4 weeks I'll be done with feisty06:27
troy_sUbuntu's strength however, is in the groundswell of 'users' who are coming from winblows / apple06:27
kwwiiand then I will start right away on planning the next stuff06:27
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troy_skwwii maybe think about longer term goals?06:27
kwwiiyepp, exactly06:27
troy_skwwii otherwise it is just another novell for you -- pinch off small loafs.06:27
kwwiiI'll probably try to look 3 releases out06:28
kwwiiand set goals for each one06:28
kwwiiit will take a while just to get the whole process running06:28
troy_sAgain, if we could at some point get sabdfl to do two things06:28
troy_swell i believe that was clear in edgy06:28
kwwiiheck, it will take a while just to get the powers that be used to working on things this way06:28
troy_sthe journey is the goal.06:28
troy_sthe problem is that Ubuntu will _never_ achieve Fedora's level of discipline06:29
kwwiimy excuse is "sorry, I am still training my boss"06:29
troy_sIt would take two things primarily:06:29
troy_s 1) sabdfl stand down on design.06:29
troy_s 2) Power given to an art director.06:29
troy_sAnd in order to avoid bikesheds06:30
troy_s2.1) Art director have formal training and experience.06:30
troy_s2.2) Be innovative -- the realm of 'free design' is just starting.06:30
troy_sBikesheds are always a nightmare.06:30
troy_sthat said,06:30
kwwiithe hard thing is that most art directors that you find are not used to working in an open source setting06:30
troy_shaving a bloody target audience helps to alleviate that strain.06:31
kwwiiyeah, true06:31
troy_skwwii:  Not exactly.  Every art director I know06:31
troy_sworks on a team06:31
troy_sa very _big_ team.06:31
troy_sthat crosses feature film art directors and established video game art directors.06:31
kwwiioh sure, but there are definite levels of responsiblity and everyone knows where the top of the ladder is06:31
troy_sthey all have extremely good team skills.06:31
troy_sYes.  That said,06:31
troy_sI believe there is room for that paradigm to be shifted06:31
troy_sTo have a 'consensus' built design structure.06:32
kwwiiI would not say that edgy was done as a team...rather it was done as many one-man teams06:32
troy_skwwii: Edgy was designed06:32
troy_sto have sabdfl step in at many points06:32
troy_swhich he DID not.06:32
troy_sthose are client checkpoints06:32
troy_sto steer.06:32
troy_swithout that, you are left floating.06:32
troy_sThat said, knowing what I know now, it is probably wise if sabdfl simply steps away from the table.06:33
troy_sHe will never get an art director with education and training to fill the role he wants.06:33
troy_sAnd I would bet my house on that.06:33
troy_s(with his current mentality)06:33
troy_sIf you want a very practical approach -- head into a tattoo parlour and ask the tattoo artist to colour in the linework built by someone else.06:34
kwwiihehe, that works great in prison!06:34
troy_sand that is exactly what we have right now in design06:35
troy_sprison design06:35
troy_sFTW crudely scrawled across our knuckles of *buntu desktop boxes.06:35
troy_sAgain, even if you look at the smallest of small details06:35
troy_sdespite the background itself, we at least ended up with a GDM/Lsplash/Wall that has the same palette06:35
troy_sWhich was a MASSIVE bit of fighting even to get the broken implementation we have now.06:36
troy_sI think sabdfl is really in a prime spot to really push FOSS -- imagine an Ubuntu desktop box06:36
troy_swhat would it look like etc...06:36
troy_ssabdfl has the resources to make that a very real proposition06:36
kwwiiwell, the first step is to get someone he trusts in the right position06:37
kwwiior things will never change06:37
troy_sand i firmly believe that having that sort of 'vision' is required to elevate ubuntu.  i am impressed that fedora has quit hiring the 'usual suspects' in foss 'art'06:37
troy_skwwii Unfortunately, the person he trusts might not be coupled with the ability structure, so I am not certain.06:37
troy_s(not pointing at you, pointing at 'the person')06:37
kwwiiyeah, finding the right person is hard too06:38
troy_sFor example06:38
kwwiibut given a bit of power and a bit of time to do things right would be a big step in the right direction06:38
troy_sas i was saying before, i had the art director from 'the final cut' lined up06:38
troy_sbut it simply wasn't an option to involve him06:38
troy_s(he did some amazing work on Robin Williams wooden laptop/edit suite)06:38
troy_sand further, there is no way in hell that i would put him in a room with sabdfl as i know he would just exhale a massive sigh at the end.06:39
troy_sHell, I wouldn't involve students at a design school.06:39
kwwiithat is what I meant when I said that most art directors won't fit well in a FOSS company environment06:40
kwwiiit is not just ubuntu that works like this06:40
kwwiimany companies do06:40
troy_sThe 'foss' company is a new thing06:40
kwwiiand it is so sad06:40
troy_sand it must learn06:40
troy_sjust as fedora very clearly has06:40
kwwiithey need a boss who is not a developer06:40
kwwiior can think around being one06:40
troy_sand there are _many_ people like that06:41
troy_svideo games have been around for ages06:41
troy_sto name but one small niche06:41
troy_sThe problem is that the FOSS community is cliquy06:41
kwwiiwell, the difference here is that you are mainly stuck with the technology that already exists, you cannot push the limit on that much06:41
troy_sand they turn their noses up at the practical implications of having true educated and specialized folks in partner areas.06:42
kwwiiif you go too far away from upstream you are killing yourself06:42
troy_sI don't think it is the technology.06:42
kwwiithat is defnitely true06:42
troy_sBut that is certainly a part of it.06:42
kwwiiit is like they feel their toes getting stepped on06:42
troy_sFor example, the panel implementation in GNOME is simply awful.06:42
troy_sAs developers, they have a good solid generation of learning behind them.06:43
kwwiiwell, if you create too much new technology it is impossible to maintain it06:43
troy_sAs creative types -- designers etc -- it is starting _now_.06:43
kwwiiyou need upstream to support a lot of this tsuff06:43
troy_skwwii I don't know if it is about too much or trying to support a 'bigger' picture.06:43
kwwiiso like the face browser, it will not happen very quickly06:43
troy_sThe foss community of developers has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are very skilled at developing architecture.06:43
troy_sface browser blah.06:44
kwwiibut they have to buy into it, believe in it06:44
kwwiior they will never do it06:44
troy_sYes... or06:44
troy_sas with Ubuntu / Red Had06:44
troy_shave the person paying the bills buy into it.06:44
troy_sto get the codebase in place.06:44
troy_sRight now though, regarding Ubuntu design, it has nothing to do with technology06:45
kwwiiyeah, not yet06:45
kwwiiwe are not that far06:45
troy_sIt is purely about getting an audience locked06:45
troy_sRealizing that the GNOME / KDE myth of 'users' is a very varied area06:45
troy_sWe need a good demographic to target06:45
troy_sand a research based approach to design06:45
kwwiiwe have been working on trying to get that in place in kde for a while06:46
troy_sthat touches on every element from icon size in the panels (what joe average user wants 22 pixel icons?)06:46
kwwiiand what we have found is that the developers themselves hinder that process06:46
troy_swell and it sounds 'exclusiory'06:46
troy_swhich is ALREADY is, I might add, just not in an outspoken way.06:46
kwwiimany FOSS projects are "by developers, for developers" and they want to keep it that way06:46
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troy_sThen they have lost sight of Richard Stallman's vision.06:47
kwwiiI can point you to several cases where developers have quit because they feel like the true vision is being lost06:47
troy_sIn the end, it is completely irrelevant.06:47
troy_sMany people will have their noses bent out of shape.06:47
kwwiibut without deveopers you never get anywhere06:47
troy_sWell FOSS has proven that you can now pay developers06:47
troy_sThere are many developers who are willing to work in FOSS who have yet to discover it.06:48
troy_sThat said, what are your practical steps for the next bit?06:49
troy_s(and i think the furor that was caused at the end of Edgy was largely because there were community people following more closely than sabdfl -- and saw the potentials)06:49
troy_skwwii Oh yeah06:50
troy_sis that wallpaper rendered?06:50
troy_skwwii: ?06:51
kwwiiyeah, did it again today06:51
troy_sYou have a thumber?06:51
EmxBAthis http://www.isity.net/blog/ looks nice ;)06:52
kwwiinot yet, I'll make one in a bit06:52
kwwiigotta cook dinner first :-)06:52
kwwiimy son is yelling "I'm hungry"06:52
kwwiitell that to my wife06:52
troy_sgo feed your young mouth06:52
troy_skwwii: I live it... I know ;)06:52
troy_sEmxBA: Yes, but it is far too communicative for sabdfl.  NHH -- never happen here.  :)06:53
troy_sI speak that with the utmost seriousness.06:54
troy_sRemember, sabdfl is the guy who wore cornbraids not that long ago.06:54
troy_sHis aesthetic is ... questionable.06:55
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troy_sgreetings brottman07:53
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nysosymhi there :)09:43
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nysosymhi brottman :)09:46
nysosymkwwii: usplash is final now? :)09:47
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nysosymhi kwwii_ :D09:50
kwwii_moved from wired to wireless09:50
kwwiithat's better09:50
nysosymyes :)09:50
nysosymanyway, usplash is final?09:51
kwwiipretty much, yew09:53
nysosymwhich resolution do u have integrated? :)09:54
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newz2000whoa, that link in the topic is amazing09:56
newz2000hey, in Edgy, I'm trying to find the icon used for System -> Help -> Commercial Support, anyone know where that is?09:57
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nysosymnewz2000: usr/share/icons/gnome/24x24/generic/stock_send-fax10:12
newz2000nysosym: thanks!10:12
nysosymno problem ;)10:12
newz2000oh man, that's teh biggest one10:12
newz2000(hoping to use a 48x48 on the website)10:12
newz2000oh well, there are others10:13
nysosymwell, i will go to bed now :)10:26
nysosymhave a nice day @all, see u soon! :)10:26
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