[12:18] Not exactly. [12:18] A) the svg should be smaller [12:18] B) setting gnome's wallpaper to 'zoom' accomodates proper scaling (albeit not 100% perfect composition, but c'est la vie) [12:19] troy_s: this is about including different aspect ratios for the usplash [12:20] wasn't there an issue with aspects for usplash? [12:21] as in you can't always know that it will return from power saving with proper aspect? [12:26] nope that had to do with the color depth [12:26] but that issue is solved as well [12:26] looks like we'll be using 16 or 24bit soon [12:26] 16 is a waste of time [12:27] worse than 256 [12:27] lol [12:27] wrong [12:27] uh right [12:27] the bootsplash takes 16 of 24 from a jpeg [12:27] and I helped write it [12:27] believe me I know [12:27] 16bpp == 555 [12:27] 565 [12:27] yes. [12:27] so you are talking colour banding [12:28] and that is worse than only using 256 colors? [12:28] only time 16 bits comes in ahead is when you have a plethora of colours... even then, it is ugly. [12:28] 256 palettized. [12:28] greater range. [12:28] dude, my experience proves otherwise [12:28] but we can agree to disagree [12:28] on anything with gradients, 16bpp is simply awful. [12:29] not if you do it right [12:29] 32 colours to express a gradient is not exactly optimal. [12:29] even if you dither the piss out of it. [12:29] it is jpeg, so no dithering [12:29] wtf does jpeg have to do with dithering? [12:30] ahhh, you mean dithering the gradient in the app itself [12:31] anyway...I'll be happy to have it [12:31] just look at the bootsplash artwork that is available [12:31] and then look at the usplash artwork [12:34] that's an awful method to evaluate. just look at the bulk of work out there in general. ;) [12:34] usplash to bootsplash is like comparing borked to borken. [12:39] troy_s: the only real difference (other than the box and text rendering in the bootsplash) is the color depth [12:40] anyway [12:40] time for bed === vdepizzol [n=vinicius@200.242.12.134] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === Madpilot [n=brian@ubuntu/member/madpilot] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === coz_ [n=coz_@pool-68-162-162-84.pitt.east.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === coz_ [n=coz_@pool-68-162-162-84.pitt.east.verizon.net] has left #ubuntu-artwork ["Leaving"] === PseudoPlacebo [n=Placebo@user-0ceveav.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === klepas [n=klepas@ppp167-251-133.static.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === gobat [n=chatzill@h189.222.29.71.ip.alltel.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === msikma [n=Msikma@s55933ad4.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [07:54] moin === nysosym [n=nysosym@p54B7B5AC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [08:16] hi there === EmxBA [n=emx@ubuntu/member/emxba] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === ryanakca_ [n=ryan@ubuntu/member/ryanakca] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === ryanakca_ [n=ryan@d226-26-139.home.cgocable.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === ryanakca_ [n=ryan@d226-26-139.home.cgocable.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === BHSPitMonkey [n=stephen@adsl-65-69-155-239.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === BHSPitMonkey [n=stephen@adsl-66-142-168-132.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PingunZ [n=PingunZ@250.7-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PseudoPlacebo [n=Placebo@user-0ceveav.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === nysosym [n=nysosym@p54B7B5AC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [11:14] re [11:16] hey man [11:16] yo [11:17] howdy darkmatter, nysosym and everyone else :-) [11:18] hi kwwii my friend :D [11:18] and hio darkmatter :)))) [11:19] herd 4 comes out today? [11:20] yepp [11:20] well, today or tomorrow [11:20] but it is being made now [11:20] and a good ol' top o' the mornin' to ya' too kwwii :) [11:21] nice, i hope heard 4 does work on my machine, the installer from the daily from yesterday crashs, at loading partition manager [11:21] but madwifi and my sound was working great :) [11:22] hehe [11:22] yeah, it didn't work too well on my machine either [11:23] kwwii, i have started to work on media keys in human look now :D [11:26] nysosym: cool :-) [11:26] I was supposed to be having a conf call with my boss [11:26] but it appears he is still sleeping :p [11:27] hehe :D [11:27] either that or he meant 11 at night [11:27] ok at this time i will although go to bed ^^ [11:28] I guess everyone has seen this: http://www.isity.net/blog/ [11:28] that is what we need to work up to [11:28] can i ask, why do u tried to call him? :) [11:28] because I don't want to pay for it :-) [11:28] and it is not an important call [11:29] more to give him the feeling that he knows what is going on I guess [11:29] wow, the fedora artwork is amazing! O.o [11:30] no reason to switch, but amazing :D [11:30] nice.. is that the official artwork???? === darkmatter attacks fedoras server to scavenge up the files :D [11:31] it seams so [11:32] yepp [11:32] she has done it for the last 3 releases or so [11:32] amazing stuff [11:32] and it is based off of community themes [11:33] and flickr pics [11:34] yes, very consistent and professional :) [11:34] it seams that the ballon, is one of the new fedora metaphors [11:36] darkmatter, i think we shouldn't be envious, we should create something better ;) [11:36] hehe [11:38] note however that it was not done by a group of people [11:39] i think we should add more african like stuff, i like brown, very warm and beautiful, but more typical african stuff would be although nice [11:39] kwwii, sure, but i love to speak in plural ^ [11:39] nysosym: actually, I think we could do something like that as a group [11:40] since there are so many pieces [11:40] but we need a team that takes direction well [11:40] not 5 poeple with 10 different ideas [11:40] that is good at the start [11:40] but when we have one look down it takes everyone walking down the same path to create a unified look [11:41] yes, well formed specifications [11:42] i had a conversation with troy_s for a longer time, that we need more specifications, like apple and ms [11:42] well, there is also a matter of time [11:45] kwwii, sure, what we should do is increasing the specifications from version to version. The way that we go in the history, but with more defination, we shouldn't try to make in every realese a revolution in graphic style [11:46] for sure not for the end of life, i think every 2-3 years we should create something completely new [11:47] or more years ^^ [11:47] yeah [11:48] not sure I would call them spefications, more like guidelines [11:48] specfications [11:48] ahhhh [11:48] specifications [11:48] kwwii, yes, thats the much better word ;) [11:49] a strong line to work on for 2-3 years with enough elbowroom for ideas [11:51] well, the first part is to get an art director [11:51] and that is in the works [11:52] i vote for u ;) [11:52] lol === PingunZ_ [n=PingunZ@211.27-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [11:52] I would have to move to london for that [11:53] why that? *confused* [11:53] damn inkscape just died [11:54] well, there is several reasons [11:54] 1) to be in the office to work with the marketing people, etc [11:55] the headquarter of canoncial is in london? [11:55] 2) it is hard to do that kind of coordination from another country, you need to see the printed material, etc. when it is happening [11:55] yepp [11:55] ok all clear now :D [11:55] ok but who is in london? [11:56] or other, which person is in the inner circle for the art-director? [11:58] and why does inkscape die? [11:59] no idea who they are looking at [11:59] I know they want to hire one, that is all [11:59] and that will be my boss [11:59] inkscape dies because it is poorly written software [11:59] :p [11:59] hmmm, a fresh air in the ubuntu-art work? [12:00] kwwii, yes, that's true it's slow, but free ^^ === PingunZ_ is now known as PingunZ [12:00] xara is very nice and fast and i love the way for transitions :D [12:00] but svg support is miserable [12:01] xara's ok... [12:01] inkscapes better :P [12:01] darkmatter, not in all ways ;) [12:01] :P [12:01] ohh i will have a lunch now :) [12:01] cya [12:01] bye [12:01] see you === kwwii has a call [12:02] be back later [12:02] hav fun ;) [12:14] re === klepas [n=klepas@60-242-104-119.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [12:15] hi klepas [12:16] hey, sup? [12:16] sup? [12:25] what's up :) [12:28] ahh ok, fedora has a good artwork ^^ [12:28] http://www.isity.net/blog/ [12:44] damn, inkscape should have a autosave option ^^ [12:54] nysosym: well, when it crashes it saves a file [12:54] so that is at least something [12:55] kwwii, yes, but not in any time, "saving failed" ^^ [12:56] ouch [12:56] no problem, i have again the same status :) [12:58] nysosym: yea, fedora has some nice work in it :) [12:58] nysosym: is that your blog? [12:59] klepas,no, i love ubuntu :D [12:59] *nod* === klepas needs to get in touch with that dude [01:00] klepas: it is a woman :-) [01:00] erm [01:00] woman? O.o [01:00] I will shut up, not sure what I am talking about [01:00] I meant the person doing the RH stuff [01:00] no :D [01:00] please don't shut up ^^ [01:00] lol [01:00] oh, i jumped to conclusions [01:00] kwwii: thanks [01:00] klepas: np [01:01] she has a masters degree in design from harvard [01:01] far out [01:01] i definitely need to say hi :) [01:01] yeah, made me feel small pretty quickly [01:02] the neatest part about that artwork is that it is based on community themes and flickr pics [01:03] yea [01:03] *cough* unlike ubuntu *cough* [01:04] klepas hmm? [01:04] ubuntu has many work from the community inside :D [01:04] nothing that is default [01:04] klepas, my emblems for instance ^^ [01:07] klepas: that will change in the future [01:07] that's the plan [01:08] kwwii, play button, what do u think? [01:08] http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zeichnung2hz3.png [01:10] nysosym: nice, probably needs a bit more saturation [01:10] no problem :D === klepas exports a 5867x3373 PNG :) [01:11] klepas: have you noticed how slow inkscape is at rendering stuff with blur? [01:11] it took me 3.5 hours to render the current wallpaper [01:11] O.o [01:11] is slow, but so slow? ^^ [01:12] *its [01:13] kwwii: yep [01:13] considering the work i am rendering has over 30 large blurs... this one will take a fair while [01:14] this work has iirc 2000+ mouse-created objects [01:15] kwwii, better? http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zeichnung222ma3.png [01:16] hmm i need a graphic tablet... [01:20] another stupid bug in inkscape [01:20] http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bugfp9.png [01:24] the dotted line should be on the last end of the triangle [01:36] hehe [01:36] yeah [01:53] damn, icon creation eats so much time :D [01:54] kwwii, has u seen my resolutions for usplash yesterday? [01:54] nysosym: nope [01:54] ahhh [01:54] I mean yes [01:54] but that is too many [01:55] hmm can usplash scaling down? [01:55] I brought that up as an issue at the meeting tonight [01:55] nope, it only scales up [01:55] damn [01:55] ^^ [01:55] I'll let the developers figure it out [01:56] I guess at least including a 1280x800 would be a good start [01:56] yes for widescreen users [01:56] i think usplash would be better as xml base, with a center option. :D [01:57] in that way u could create a little ubuntu image which looks good in every resolution ^^ [01:59] and this would reduce space :) [02:11] hehe [02:12] well, this is not really our decision [02:12] but it looks like it will support 16bit graphics [02:12] which is great [02:12] as we can then do full screen themes [02:15] cool, maybe in the next release? :D [02:20] ok kwwii i will go to work now, hope to see u in the next time :) [02:20] have a nice day ;) === andreasn [n=andreas@h101n1fls31o839.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [05:22] greets all. [05:32] wow... imagine that... a clearly communicated vision in open source software [05:32] redhat gets it right [05:32] Look a motif! === mode/#ubuntu-artwork [+o troy_s] by ChanServ === ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:troy_s] : Welcome to #ubuntu-artwork. Fedora gets it right -- http://www.isity.net/blog/ === mode/#ubuntu-artwork [-o troy_s] by troy_s === Ubugtu [n=bugbot@ubuntu/bot/ubugtu] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [05:55] of course that vision was done by one person, not a team [06:00] kwwii It is possible to do that sort of work within a team. [06:01] kwwii I have seen it. [06:01] kwwii I think it is simply the fact that she knows all the beats. She is well versed in the creative process. === Ubugtu [n=bugbot@ubuntu/bot/ubugtu] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [06:03] that is quite simply the first piece of free software work that I have seen that properly fleshes out creative ideas. [06:04] the communication factor is functionally clear, the integrated use of a motif, the palette issues, etc. [06:13] And besides, if your argument was that a single person achieves this level of quality, look to all the other single person endeavours out there. It certainly can work as a single person (look at the bulk of the rubbish on *look), but it too can work in a team based scenario (Apple comes to mind) for larger projects. [06:14] kwwii Did you get the wallpaper rendered bro? [06:18] troy_s: the fact thaqt her stuff is based on community themes and flickr artwork amazed me [06:19] Well... [06:19] actually, my point was that it is harder to do it in a team [06:19] she simply looked outside at the 'proposals' [06:19] more people = more problems [06:19] kwwii It is absoultely tough. [06:19] but it also is simply a matter of numbers [06:19] like a game of chess [06:19] man this connection is killing me, gonna restart my client [06:19] brb [06:19] one player plays against two solid players, the one player will probably lose. [06:19] ok chat in a sec === kwwii [n=kwwii@p54955119.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [06:20] Good now? [06:21] yeah [06:21] better [06:21] my server is slow for some reason [06:21] and typing was hell [06:21] I think as grown up folks interested in art and design etc [06:21] It is key to see the essence of what someone is trying to communicate through a mock [06:21] which she clearly did [06:21] if you look at the source of the inspiration, it is very clunky [06:22] and probably wouldn't get a second look by most folks. but she simply saw through the actual execution to the root of the idea. [06:22] which i suppose is a skill unto itself. [06:22] I know I try to work on that sort of approach every day -- try to see what the creator of a piece is seeing in the work that 'works' for them. === darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [06:23] yeah, she has a masters degree in design from harvard :p [06:23] It is a terrific body of work, well fleshed out. [06:23] Yeah I should get my MA [06:23] I have been putting it off for too long... [06:23] I really want to spend a year or so working on form. [06:24] although it looks awesome I must say that the wallpaper is a bit too complicated for a default [06:24] I think it is a little on the contrasty [06:25] I have been experimenting with that sort of thing, and I think 'business' is nice in a wallpaper if you can meet the [06:25] contrast requirements [06:25] (eg test icons against areas etc.) [06:25] yeah [06:25] that said [06:25] audience rules all [06:25] and her body of work is quite clearly aimed at a particular audience [06:25] who cares nothing about contrast issues. [06:25] defnitely [06:26] And I am partial to that thinking. [06:26] ubuntu still needs to define a clear target audience [06:26] and then a clear set of objectives from top down. [06:26] note that the artwork is for fedora, not RH itself [06:26] exactly ;) [06:26] fedora being the 'desktop' end now. [06:26] i would expect that if she were to design for RH [06:27] she would probably attempt to address the business sector with the design. [06:27] yepp [06:27] (see on a bank terminal) [06:27] well in about 4 weeks I'll be done with feisty [06:27] Ubuntu's strength however, is in the groundswell of 'users' who are coming from winblows / apple [06:27] and then I will start right away on planning the next stuff === Ubugtu [n=bugbot@ubuntu/bot/ubugtu] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [06:27] kwwii maybe think about longer term goals? [06:27] yepp, exactly [06:27] kwwii otherwise it is just another novell for you -- pinch off small loafs. [06:28] I'll probably try to look 3 releases out [06:28] and set goals for each one [06:28] it will take a while just to get the whole process running [06:28] Again, if we could at some point get sabdfl to do two things [06:28] well i believe that was clear in edgy [06:28] heck, it will take a while just to get the powers that be used to working on things this way [06:28] the journey is the goal. [06:29] the problem is that Ubuntu will _never_ achieve Fedora's level of discipline [06:29] my excuse is "sorry, I am still training my boss" [06:29] It would take two things primarily: [06:29] 1) sabdfl stand down on design. [06:29] 2) Power given to an art director. [06:30] And in order to avoid bikesheds [06:30] 2.1) Art director have formal training and experience. [06:30] 2.2) Be innovative -- the realm of 'free design' is just starting. [06:30] Bikesheds are always a nightmare. [06:30] that said, [06:30] the hard thing is that most art directors that you find are not used to working in an open source setting [06:31] having a bloody target audience helps to alleviate that strain. [06:31] yeah, true [06:31] kwwii: Not exactly. Every art director I know [06:31] works on a team [06:31] a very _big_ team. [06:31] that crosses feature film art directors and established video game art directors. [06:31] oh sure, but there are definite levels of responsiblity and everyone knows where the top of the ladder is [06:31] they all have extremely good team skills. [06:31] Yes. That said, [06:31] I believe there is room for that paradigm to be shifted [06:32] To have a 'consensus' built design structure. [06:32] I would not say that edgy was done as a team...rather it was done as many one-man teams [06:32] kwwii: Edgy was designed [06:32] to have sabdfl step in at many points [06:32] which he DID not. [06:32] those are client checkpoints [06:32] to steer. [06:32] without that, you are left floating. [06:33] true [06:33] That said, knowing what I know now, it is probably wise if sabdfl simply steps away from the table. [06:33] He will never get an art director with education and training to fill the role he wants. [06:33] And I would bet my house on that. [06:33] (with his current mentality) [06:34] If you want a very practical approach -- head into a tattoo parlour and ask the tattoo artist to colour in the linework built by someone else. [06:34] ;) [06:34] hehe, that works great in prison! [06:34] exactly [06:35] and that is exactly what we have right now in design [06:35] prison design [06:35] FTW crudely scrawled across our knuckles of *buntu desktop boxes. [06:35] Again, even if you look at the smallest of small details [06:35] despite the background itself, we at least ended up with a GDM/Lsplash/Wall that has the same palette [06:36] Which was a MASSIVE bit of fighting even to get the broken implementation we have now. [06:36] lol [06:36] I think sabdfl is really in a prime spot to really push FOSS -- imagine an Ubuntu desktop box [06:36] what would it look like etc... [06:36] sabdfl has the resources to make that a very real proposition [06:37] well, the first step is to get someone he trusts in the right position [06:37] or things will never change [06:37] and i firmly believe that having that sort of 'vision' is required to elevate ubuntu. i am impressed that fedora has quit hiring the 'usual suspects' in foss 'art' [06:37] kwwii Unfortunately, the person he trusts might not be coupled with the ability structure, so I am not certain. [06:37] (not pointing at you, pointing at 'the person') [06:38] yeah, finding the right person is hard too [06:38] For example [06:38] but given a bit of power and a bit of time to do things right would be a big step in the right direction [06:38] as i was saying before, i had the art director from 'the final cut' lined up [06:38] but it simply wasn't an option to involve him [06:38] (he did some amazing work on Robin Williams wooden laptop/edit suite) [06:39] and further, there is no way in hell that i would put him in a room with sabdfl as i know he would just exhale a massive sigh at the end. [06:39] Hell, I wouldn't involve students at a design school. [06:40] that is what I meant when I said that most art directors won't fit well in a FOSS company environment [06:40] it is not just ubuntu that works like this [06:40] many companies do [06:40] The 'foss' company is a new thing [06:40] and it is so sad [06:40] and it must learn [06:40] just as fedora very clearly has [06:40] they need a boss who is not a developer [06:40] or can think around being one [06:41] and there are _many_ people like that [06:41] video games have been around for ages [06:41] to name but one small niche [06:41] The problem is that the FOSS community is cliquy [06:41] well, the difference here is that you are mainly stuck with the technology that already exists, you cannot push the limit on that much [06:42] and they turn their noses up at the practical implications of having true educated and specialized folks in partner areas. [06:42] if you go too far away from upstream you are killing yourself [06:42] I don't think it is the technology. [06:42] that is defnitely true [06:42] But that is certainly a part of it. [06:42] it is like they feel their toes getting stepped on [06:42] For example, the panel implementation in GNOME is simply awful. [06:43] As developers, they have a good solid generation of learning behind them. [06:43] well, if you create too much new technology it is impossible to maintain it [06:43] As creative types -- designers etc -- it is starting _now_. [06:43] you need upstream to support a lot of this tsuff [06:43] stuff [06:43] kwwii I don't know if it is about too much or trying to support a 'bigger' picture. [06:43] so like the face browser, it will not happen very quickly [06:43] The foss community of developers has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are very skilled at developing architecture. [06:44] face browser blah. [06:44] but they have to buy into it, believe in it [06:44] ;) [06:44] or they will never do it [06:44] Yes... or [06:44] as with Ubuntu / Red Had [06:44] have the person paying the bills buy into it. [06:44] to get the codebase in place. [06:45]