[12:17] <keescook> seb128: I've got a built vte (was about to test the fix for #85023), are you working on this too?
[12:18] <seb128> keescook: nop, it's midnight and I was just sending the summary for the weekly meeting before going to bed :p
[12:18] <seb128> keescook: you are welcome to upload a fixed package for that ;)
[12:18] <keescook> okay, cool.  I'll get ubuntu2 uploaded.  :)
[12:19] <seb128> bug #85023 (probably the screen problem)
[12:19] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 85023 in vte "Screen corruption when used with screen" [High,Fix committed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/85023
[12:19] <seb128> right
[12:19] <seb128> keescook: thank you, once it's uploaded try to convince tfheen to accept it for herd4 maybe ;)
[12:19] <keescook> I'll leave that to you.  ;)
[12:20] <seb128> though it's not really required for the CD
[12:20] <seb128> that's a command line corner case and people are likely to pick the update after herd4 anyway
[12:21] <keescook> right.  I'd like to see this LVM snapshot bug fixed.  really killing me since all my builds are on snapshots.
[12:21] <seb128> good luck with that ;)
[12:21] <seb128> time for bed here
[12:22] <seb128> 'night everybody, see you tomorrow
[12:22] <keescook> g'night!
[12:31] <sistpoty> hm... I just got a reject for gv saying that 3.6.2-2ubuntu1 <= 1:3.6.2-2... however the epoch is there in the dsc... any clues?
[12:35] <geser> sistpoty: it's bug #85201
[12:35] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 85201 in soyuz "wrongly rejects epoched uploads" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/85201
[12:35] <sistpoty> geser: thx... just found it :)
[12:36] <keescook> uh-oh.  Rejected: vte_0.15.3-0ubuntu2.dsc: Version older than that in the archive. 0.15.3-0ubuntu2 <= 1:0.15.3-0ubuntu1
[12:37] <sistpoty> welcome to the club keescook
[12:37] <keescook> oh
[12:37] <keescook> hey, look, I can read my scrollback, I should try it some time.  :)
[02:17] <mjg59> cjwatson: Erm. Not really. Has iopl been called?
[02:18] <poningru> did 2.17.91 get through the freeze?
[02:28] <sparr> why doesnt ubuntu have 'moving target' repository names like debian's stable/testing/unstable?  having to modify my sources every 6 months to keep up to date is hella annoying
[02:32] <HrdwrBoB> because you don't want to be running ubuntu unstable when it's first switched over
[02:33] <sparr> no, YOU don't want that :-p
[02:33] <HrdwrBoB> because your system will likely fail spectactularly
[02:33] <sparr> ill be switching from feisty to gwhatever the day after feisty releases
[02:33] <Hobbsee> [12:33]  <Hobbsee> !timebasedreleases
[02:33] <Hobbsee> [12:33]  <ubotu> Ubuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 18 months to 5 years. More info at http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/releases & http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases
[02:33] <Hobbsee> sparr: ^
[02:33] <sparr> yes, im familiar with that
[02:34] <Hobbsee> sparr: no you wont, the day after feisty releases, the new release isnt even started.
[02:34] <sparr> akin to debian's named releases (etch, potato, sarge, etc)
[02:34] <Hobbsee> they do get a couple of days off, you know.
[02:34] <Hobbsee> then you've got to wait for the toolchain
[02:34] <sparr> Hobbsee: then ill be ready when it happens :-p
[02:35] <Hobbsee> go ahead.  as long as you file bugs, of course
[02:35] <sparr> i do
[02:35] <Hobbsee> good.
[02:36] <sparr> when a new driver or library comes out, i cant wait 6 months for it
[02:37] <sparr> i cant imagine anyone moving from debian unstable to ubuntu NOT doing what im doing
[02:37] <HrdwrBoB> er
[02:37] <HrdwrBoB> they are so used to their systems breaking spectacularly every six months?
[02:37] <HrdwrBoB> or more frequently?
[02:38] <Hobbsee> sparr: did you run feisty in the first few weeks of it's development?
[02:38] <sparr> Hobbsee: yes, ish
[02:38] <Ng> sparr: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/launchpad/+spec/grumpy-groundhog
[02:38] <sparr> i didnt dist-upgrade
[02:38] <sparr> i get my feisty one dependency at a time
[02:38] <sparr> my system is probably at least 80% edgy still
[02:39] <Hobbsee> that's just insanity.
[02:39] <sparr> HrdwrBoB: the breakage isnt so bad, and well worth it
[02:39] <sparr> ive only encountered two broken packages so far
[02:39] <sparr> both already bug'd when i found them
[02:39] <Hobbsee> sparr: only getting part of feisty is not the same as a new feisty, where all the core stuff is changing too
[02:40] <sparr> very true
[02:40] <sparr> if and when i want the core stuff, ill upgrade it
[02:40] <sparr> i think flash 9 was the first thing i wanted that wasnt in edgy
[02:41] <Ng> if you're just cherry picking a few apps and libs though, one global s&r in one config file twice a year doesn't seem to quite fit "hella annoying" ;)
[02:41] <sparr> Ng: ok, mildly annoying :-p
[02:44] <sparr> Ng: more so, because i dont remember to do it until the first time i try to upgrade something and i realize a new version is out
[02:45] <sparr> just a random idea...  why not have aliases in the repository...  one points to the last LTS release, one to the last release, and one to the latest dev
[02:45] <sparr> not exactly the same as debian, but thats not neccessarily a bad thing
[02:46] <Hobbsee> sparr: because of the extra work.  and the idea of freezes then get thrown out the window.
[02:46] <bddebian> Why don't you just run Deian then? :)
[02:46] <bddebian> Err debian even
[02:46] <Hobbsee> bddebian: gentoo, really.
[02:47] <Ng> it kinda invites disaster for people who have them set to that without realising the implications and happily let update-manager to a dist-upgrade
[02:47] <bddebian> Ah, better
[02:47] <sparr> bddebian: because i like kubuntu's out of the box software integration better
[02:47] <bddebian> So either you live with it or you switch :-)
[02:47] <sparr> for a long time i was torn between debian and gentoo...
[02:48] <sparr> ubuntu improved on debian in a few key ways, enough to overcome the few failings like the instant case...  so now it would be ubuntu vs gentoo
[02:48] <sparr> but gentoo's cutting edge is TOO broken for my tastes
[02:49] <sparr> and the default configuration is poor.  getting a "complete" desktop experience set up like [k] ubuntu provides takes far more time than its worth
[02:49] <Hobbsee> sparr: so's the first few weeks of the development release, btw
[02:49] <Hobbsee> very cutting, very broken
[02:49] <sparr> i like being able to plug in a usb drive and it auto mounts and i get a prompt about what to do.  i like having 'burn' as a context menu item for ISO files.  i like http links in my irc client opening the right browser, usually.
[02:50] <sparr> Hobbsee: yeah, but i dont encounter those
[02:50] <sparr> Hobbsee: the things i want to upgrade are rarely dependent on the things that are very broken
[02:50] <poningru> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/feisty-changes/2007-February/005287.html
[02:50] <poningru> dist-upgrader
[02:50] <poningru>  - updated demotions
[02:50] <Hobbsee> sparr: if you want to run the latest release all the time, then you're going to be upgrading *everything*
[02:50] <poningru> what does that mean?
[02:50] <Hobbsee> including stuff that breaks
[02:51] <Hobbsee> poningru: demotions from main to universe
[02:51] <poningru> what are demotions?
[02:51] <poningru> ah gotcha
[02:51] <sparr> Hobbsee: sure, but thats not what i want.
[02:51] <Hobbsee> that's mostly what you're saying
[02:51] <sparr> not at all
[02:51] <sistpoty> well... if you dist-upgrade fast enough, it's safe, because nothing is broken yet... however I guess we're getting quite offtopic here
[02:51] <sparr> i want ACCESS to the latest version of every package
[02:52] <sparr> heh, i want to know how he can get a 104 that fast...  i have to time out to get one
[02:58] <bddebian> sparr: Just grab the latest upstreams and build yourself :-)
[03:00] <sparr> bddebian: heh, i do that for a few packages, stuff i have patches for
[03:34] <Rohinton> HI why do we build so many full distro's would it not be better to have 1 base and then have the GUI ( G,K,X ) applied after?
[03:35] <Burgundavia> Rohinton: we don't. The package building is a seperate process to the ISO building
[03:41] <LaserJock> Rohinton: they all come from the same repo, it's not really that different than what you are saying
[04:02] <sparr> i think Rohinton's issue is more one of perception
[04:02] <sparr> kubuntu, ubuntu, xubuntu sound very different
[04:02] <sparr> they would come together in peoples minds more as ubuntu-g, ubuntu-k, ubuntu-x
[04:03] <sparr> or any other scheme where they all start with the same letter (to be blunt)
[04:03] <Rohinton> yes - 
[04:04] <Rohinton> I would like to download a base and then after the live-cd is running or installed be prompted for the gui system...
[04:04] <sparr> im curious how much space each GUI takes up...  if someone tried to make a k+g+x ubuntu livecd, how much would they have to sacrifice to squeeze it all onto one disc?
[04:04] <sparr> i am doubtful that there is 700MB worth of kde-specific stuff on the kubuntu disc
[04:05] <HrdwrBoB> what you really want
[04:05] <Rohinton> Hmm, but the contents would have to be reviewed as they are all 690+....
[04:05] <HrdwrBoB> is a button that says 'install KDE'
[04:05] <HrdwrBoB> 'install gnome'
[04:05] <Rohinton> right...
[04:05] <HrdwrBoB> 'install XFCE'
[04:06] <Burgundavia> sparr: you couldn't do it
[04:06] <sparr> install edu (less likely, the edubuntu disc probably has the most unique packages compared to the others)
[04:06] <Burgundavia> you can look at the seeds yourself
[04:07] <sparr> im a fan of the debian net-install...  boot off a single floppy, or at worst a very very small iso image, and get everything off the network  :)
[04:07] <sparr> obviously i see the advantages to the ubuntu method
[04:08] <sparr> having to pick a gui at iso download time is odd, but not killer
[04:08] <sparr> imho the biggest problem is just the names
[04:08] <zul> sparr: what you really want is gentoo, I believe that channel is #gentoo
[04:08] <sparr> the layman is used to mac os 7, os 8, os 9, os 10
[04:08] <sparr> windows 95, windows 98, windows xp, windows vista
[04:08] <sparr> ubuntu foo, ubuntu bar, ubuntu baz would make a lot more sense to common people than foobuntu, barubuntu, bazubuntu
[04:09] <Burgundavia> likely trademarked
[04:09] <Burgundavia> and there is nothing too different from Kubuntu and Ubuntu from os 9 and os 10
[04:10] <sparr> right...  so why are the names "so different"?
[04:10] <sparr> bluntly, having different first letters means they show up different places on a list.  and they go in different little pockets in your mind.
[04:10] <sparr> think of it from a marketing perspective
[04:11] <sparr> i see a kubuntu flyer, and then later hear something about ubuntu
[04:11] <sparr> or about xubuntu
[04:11] <sparr> i am unlikely to make the connection.  at worst, i might think one is a ripoff of the other
[04:11] <Burgundavia> they are different products
[04:11] <sparr> but if they were ubuntu-k and ubuntu-x, the relationship would be a lot more intuitive
[04:12] <sparr> but they are both ubuntu
[04:12] <Burgundavia> and twice as ugly
[04:12] <Burgundavia> no, they are Xubuntu, Kubuntu and Ubuntu
[04:12] <sparr> its about mindshare
[04:12] <Burgundavia> they are different products and are marketed as such
[04:12] <sparr> i disagree.
[04:12] <Burgundavia> and anyway, this is off topic and the names are not going to change
[04:12] <Burgundavia> no matter how much we bikeshed
[04:12] <sparr> kubuntu and ubuntu are far more similar than redhat desktop and redhat enterprise server
[04:13] <sparr> and yet the redhat name is at least twice as memorable with their scheme than with ours
[04:14] <_ion> And the scientific method used to conclude the memorability to be  2.0 times better was which?
[04:14] <sparr> the current names foster an environment that seems to say "come try kubuntu!" "no, come try ubuntu!" which is counterproductive.  the message we need to be sending is "come try some variant of ubuntu!  take your pick"
[04:14] <sparr> _ion: a dartboard.  happy?  do you actually disagree with the conclusion or just the method?
[04:15] <_ion> Ubuntu and Kubuntu are totally fine names for the products IMO.
[04:16] <sparr> show someone an ad for redhat desktop, then ask if they have ever heard of redhat server.  then show someone an ubuntu ad, and ask if they have ever heard of kubuntu.  the precise answer is "no" in both cases, but the connotation is VERY different
[04:16] <Rohinton> Hmm, the different names do they signify more that just a different UI?
[04:16] <sparr> Rohinton: nope
[04:17] <sparr> Rohinton: all they are is a different default set of packages.  converting one to the other is just a matter of installing a single metapackage
[04:18] <sparr> _ion: im not saying the names are bad, per se...  for established products they would be great.  but ubuntu is in desperate need of mindshare, and this naming scheme doesnt help with that.
[04:18] <Chipzz> sparr: why are you second-guessing the whole community + canonical?
[04:18] <Chipzz> oh for crying out loud
[04:18] <_ion> "Ubuntu is in desperate need of mindshare", HUH?
[04:18] <sparr> Chipzz: i doubt i am.  first, Rohinton brought it up, not me.  second, im almost certain i could use google to find this same point made a dozen times.
[04:18] <sparr> _ion: youre familiar with bug #1?
[04:18] <Chipzz> reality-check: ubuntu is VERY MUCH NOT in need of mindshare
[04:18] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 1 in ichthux "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
[04:19] <Chipzz> sparr: have you checked distrowatch lately?
[04:19] <sparr> Chipzz: on occassion.  why?
[04:20] <Chipzz> where the hell is the distro top ten on distrowatch...
[04:20] <sparr> 'major distributions'
[04:20] <sparr> at the top
[04:20] <sparr> i know ubuntu is #1
[04:20] <sparr> thats irrelevant
[04:20] <Chipzz> no it is NOT?
[04:20] <sparr> im talking about the real world, not the "people savvy enough to visit distrowatch" subset
[04:21] <Chipzz> you're an idiot if you claim ubuntu is in need of mindshare and it's no1 at distrowatch
[04:21] <sparr> walk down the street
[04:21] <sparr> ask people if they have heard of windows
[04:21] <sparr> then ask if they have heard of ubuntu
[04:21] <_ion> Yes, changing the name of Kubuntu to Ubuntu-K would instantly convert all the Windows users to Ubuntu and Ubuntu-K.
[04:21] <Chipzz> _ion: yeah :)
[04:22] <sparr> i gave out kubuntu cds for christmas.  a few people converted.  a few tried it and went back to windows.  plenty used them as coasters, im sure.
[04:22] <Chipzz> sparr: linux in general is in need of mindshare vs windows
[04:22] <sparr> that middle group are the ones im talking about
[04:22] <sparr> a year from now when they hear something awesome about ubuntu, do you think they are going to connect it with kubuntu?
[04:22] <Chipzz> sparr: but ubuntu is very much not in need of mindshare vs other distro's
[04:22] <Chipzz> s/vs/compared to/
[04:23] <sparr> when i see ubuntu vs kubuntu, i think iMac vs Emac (as in emachines, not the educational mac).  a theme ripoff with a similar name.
[04:23] <Chipzz> STOP TROLLING
[04:23] <sparr> STOP SHOUTING
[04:23] <_ion> I think sparr has received too much mindshare tonight. :-)
[04:24] <Chipzz> yeah
[04:24] <sparr> then ignore me
[04:24] <sparr> im the reason they added /ignore to your irc client
[04:24] <Chipzz> no
[04:24] <Chipzz> you're the reason they added /kickban to our irc clients :P
[04:24] <sparr> just because you disagree doesnt make the problem go away
[04:25] <sparr> im doing my part to introduce the public to linux in general, ubuntu more precisely, kubuntu specifically.  i WANT more people using them (in that order).  since we have a marketing team, i know im not alone.
[04:25] <sparr> and this naming scheme is counter to that objective
[04:26] <Chipzz> if you think you're going to solve the problem of linux in general gaining marketshare on windows by changing kubuntu to ubuntu-k you're deleude
[04:26] <Chipzz> deluded
[04:26] <sparr> why?
[04:26] <Chipzz> because IT DOES NOT MATTER
[04:26] <sparr> are you saying im wrong, or that its insignificant?
[04:26] <sparr> every single individual who tries ubuntu helps
[04:26] <sparr> every one who sees an ad for it
[04:27] <Chipzz> *everyone* is saying you are wronge /since you entered this channel/
[04:28] <sparr> lol
[04:28] <sparr> thats a great point
[04:28] <sparr> well, it would be, if i was the one who said this first...
[04:28] <Chipzz> do you honestly think people are *that* retarded they cannot associate two product because one has a *prefix* wrt the other instead of a *suffix*?
[04:28] <sparr> yes
[04:28] <sparr> not retarded
[04:28] <Chipzz> boy do you have a very sad view of the world
[04:28] <sparr> accustomed
[04:29] <sparr> in the real world, this sort of naming scheme implies ripoffs
[04:29] <Chipzz> no it does not?
[04:29] <Chipzz> why do I even bother
[04:29] <sparr> changing the first letter is the easiest way to escape trademark problems, its how thousands of knockoff brands sell their products
[04:29] <bddebian> So if I say "Windows", do I mean 3.1, NT, 95/98/ME, XP, or Vista?
[04:29] <sparr> bddebian: yes.
[04:30] <sparr> bddebian: probably xp, today.
[04:30] <jdong> bddebian: I'd assume an NT family though
[04:30] <bddebian> No, Vista released
[04:30] <sparr> yes, but its not 'there' yet  :)
[04:30] <jdong> sparr: lots of people are running it already
[04:30] <jdong> sparr: especially computer nerds
[04:30] <bddebian> My point is, the name doesn't mean shit :-)
[04:30] <sparr> when you say windows, people think of xp.  when someone else says windows, they are almost certainly talking about xp
[04:30] <jdong> sparr: I see like 50% vista of windows users here :)
[04:30] <jdong> (here = MIT)
[04:31] <sparr> jdong: i know of a few similar local demographics...  even there, vista is named
[04:31] <Chipzz> jdong: ieks
[04:31] <sparr> vista is "windows vista", or "the new windows"
[04:31] <HrdwrBoB> sparr: XP is XP
[04:31] <sparr> i dont think ive heard "windows" specifically referring to vista yet
[04:31] <Chipzz> sparr: but... "the new" is in front of windows!
[04:31] <bddebian> hehe
[04:32] <HrdwrBoB> sparr: my mother in law knows what vista is.
[04:32] <Chipzz> OMG LOL!!!1!!111!11ELEVEN
[04:32] <sparr> i dont think ive heard "windows" referring to anything other than xp outside of IRC in at least 5 years
[04:32] <jdong> sparr: right -- when people want to talk about Windows Vista they say Vista
[04:32] <sparr> jdong: that seems to be the norm
[04:32] <jdong> but Windows I'd say refers to XP or 2K
[04:33] <jdong> at least that'd be my first assumption
[04:33] <sparr> 2k is my windows of choice, when im forced to use windows  :)
[04:33] <jdong> around here I've heard a lot of 5.1.2600's.....
[04:33] <jdong> it's land of the numbers :)
[04:33] <jdong> or 5.1K
[04:33] <jdong> for Kerberos patches
[04:33] <jdong> sparr: I like XP with the 2K theme
[04:34] <jdong> sparr: I've found XP to be faster than 2K when the theme is stripped down
[04:34] <jdong> but multitasking is pathetic period
[04:34] <_ion> I like... Wait, i don't like any Windows. ;-)
[04:34] <jdong> CPU or IO multitasking...
[04:34] <sparr> its a matter of perception...  put in simple words...  ubuntu-k says to the average joe "the k version of ubuntu".  kubuntu says "a ripoff of ubuntu, probably by a company whose name starts with k"
[04:34] <Chipzz> sparr: even then the damage is already done
[04:35] <Chipzz> sparr: even if we were to change the names, which we are NOT, that would cause confusion/technological programs with existing users of the product
[04:35] <sparr> if someone liked ubuntu, and has a passing chance to try kubuntu, they might say no just because they expect a ripoff of ubuntu.
[04:35] <sparr> or vice versa (less likely)
[04:35] <Chipzz> yes we've heard that argument like 10 times before, and it is still wrong
[04:36] <_ion> If they already know (and even use!) Ubuntu, Ubuntu already *has* the Mindshare.
[04:36] <sparr> the divergent advertising doesnt help either, with different color schemes and such
[04:36] <HrdwrBoB> and even if it's not it's not going to change
[04:36] <Chipzz> sparr: now you're talking COMPLETE crap
[04:36] <Chipzz> sparr: the different versions of windows vista also come in boxes with different colors
[04:37] <sparr> look at ads or packaging for vista home, vista server, vista ultimate, vista premium, vista chipotle...  they have things in common that tell people they are heavily related
[04:37] <Chipzz> so you're saying people won't buy vista because they're confused by the different colors of the boxes?
[04:37] <sparr> the 'background' of the box is a different color.  the vista logo is always the same.
[04:37] <Chipzz> no it's not???
[04:37] <Chipzz> it's very much the same thing
[04:37] <Chipzz> you're talking out of your arse
[04:38] <Chipzz> oh and btw
[04:38] <Chipzz> there's a name for it
[04:38] <sparr> there are so many things at work.  in no particular order...  the pearl, the name "windows", the name "vista", and the name "microsoft"
[04:38] <Chipzz> it's called "product differentiation"
[04:38] <sparr> kubuntu vs ubuntu doesnt have ANY of that in common
[04:38] <Chipzz> repeat after me: "product differentiation"
[04:38] <sparr> product differentiation isnt what we have
[04:38] <Chipzz> yes it is??
[04:39] <sparr> product differentiation indicates that theres some common point that you diverged FROM
[04:39] <sparr> we have vista home, and vista ultimate.  we have vista marketing material.  now, lets add something different for each version.
[04:39] <sparr> thats ass backwards to what kubuntu and ubuntu have
[04:39] <Chipzz> the same for ubuntu???
[04:40] <Chipzz> we have the same base for ubuntu, kubuntu, xubuntu
[04:40] <Chipzz> even the same apps
[04:40] <Chipzz> it's just a matter of default installation
[04:40] <sparr> kubuntu and ubuntu start in completely different places, and maybe by chance happen to come slightly together
[04:40] <Chipzz> these things use the bloody same repository for crying out loud!
[04:41] <bddebian> Start in different places???
[04:41] <sparr> we are talking about advertising
[04:41] <sparr> "us" communicating to "them"
[04:41] <jdong> does anyone else use the term ubuntu to encompass the entire Ubuntu family of distros?
[04:42] <sparr> jdong: distrowatch seems to
[04:42] <jdong> sparr: well every ubuntu release spams DW with like 5 identical annoucements before :D
[04:42] <sparr> jdong: which is another minor issue
[04:43] <sparr> bob made a flyer for kubuntu
[04:43] <sparr> joe made a flyer for ubuntu
[04:43] <sparr> then maybe, if we are lucky, they talked to each other and shared some ideas so they have something in common
[04:44] <Chipzz> I'm sure canonical coordinates marketing
[04:44] <sparr> getting into the look and feel of the ads is way outside the scope of what i was originally trying to say
[04:44] <jdong> yeah, like Ubuntu doesn't lose data when unmounting USB........ oh never mind
[04:44] <sparr> the names themselves are counterproductive to the task of telling people about *ubuntu
[04:45] <ivoks> imho, it would be better to have something like Ubuntu G, Ubuntu K and Ubuntu X :)
[04:45] <sparr> ivoks: blasphemy!  no one else agrees!  shut up!
[04:45] <ivoks> :)
[04:45] <sparr> </sarcasm heavy>
[04:45] <ivoks> but now it is as it is and changing that would be even worse then leaving it as is
[04:46] <sparr> i disagree
[04:46] <sparr> name changes dont have to kill a product
[04:47] <sparr> consider iceweasel, i mean firefox, i mean firebird, i mean phoenix...
[04:47] <ivoks> it always had 'Mozilla' in front of the name of product
[04:47] <ivoks> and most of the IT clueless refer to Firefox as Mozilla
[04:48] <ivoks> you download it from mozilla.org, hence, it's mozilla :)
[04:48] <Chipzz> phoenix wasn't known to the larger public, and ice* is not used by ubuntu
[04:49] <Chipzz> so that only leaves firebird vs firefox
[04:49] <mpt> sparr, you're making a lot of sense, but in the wrong place and the wrong tone. I suggest either getting a marketing job with Canonical or writing a spec, the latter of which is probably easier.
[04:50] <Chipzz> mpt: let's for a moment suppose he is right. it is still *not going to happen*
[04:50] <sparr> mpt: its already been written and dismissed on the marketing list  :)
[04:50] <mpt> Chipzz, you don't know that. Lindows changed its name for similar reasons.
[04:51] <sparr> ivoks: mozilla as part of the brand name has definitely not been "always".  it wasnt for phoenix.  it was for a little while for firebird.
[04:51] <Chipzz> mpt: lindows changed its name because microsoft was threatening to sue
[04:51] <mpt> gah, I fell for it ... like I said, this is the wrong place.
[04:51] <ivoks> (is it only me or we hear lindows/freespire to ofter around here :)
[04:51] <sparr> aha, thanks for the example
[04:51] <sparr> lindows/windows is a great example of the kind of thing average people think of when they see ubuntu's naming scheme
[04:52] <Chipzz> and it's a contrived example
[04:52] <Chipzz> because windows and lindows are *totally* *different* *products*
[04:52] <sparr> but lindows was trying to capitalize on the windows name
[04:52] <sparr> thats exactly what people will think about aubuntu when they see bubuntu
[04:53] <ivoks> guys, let's stop... as mpt said, this is wrong place
[04:53] <sparr> normal people dont know kubuntu and ubuntu are the same product.  my ENTIRE point is that they are going to think they are *totally* *different* *products*
[04:54] <_ion> But, but... How could it capitalize on the Windows name? They have *different prefixes*!
[04:54] <Chipzz> I have a counterargument against that but I'm just going to shut up
[04:54] <sparr> _ion: precisely
[04:57] <sparr> i posit two cases.  one, where users wont make the connection.  two, where users will make the connection, and life experience will tell them its a NEGATIVE connection.
[04:58] <sparr> virtually no other respectable product uses ubuntu's naming scheme.  normal people see it and think "scam" or "ripoff" or "knockoff"
[04:59] <sparr> ten years from now when ubuntu has taken over the world, we will be in a position to change that notion.  but today, while ubuntu needs to attract new users, its counterproductive to be under such a stigma
[04:59] <ivoks> ok, stop, please
[05:00] <ivoks> we code, we don't do marketing, this is -devel place
[05:00] <ivoks> plase talk to someone else
[05:11] <Rohinton> Hmm, well I asked not for the name - It did sink in that these where the same - but I was just thinking about an easier way to use ubuntu with different UIs... The download times for 3-4 iso distributions is long, also if/when they only have dvd's it may get worse?
[05:12] <Rohinton> if as suggested a button was there saying install ( X, Y, Z ) for the UI that would be nice or I could rool my own...
[05:13] <Rohinton> BTW - for all thing ubuntu the name I know and understand is Ubuntu - the others don't figure for me until I get to the download site.... :-) 
[05:13] <Rohinton> That's it on that topic, from me at least.
[05:14] <ivoks> Rohinton: http://www.ubuntu-hr.org/ningi
[05:18] <Rohinton> thanks.
[05:21] <mpt> Rohinton, afaik the Ubuntu CD is crammed full and would not have room for any Kubuntu/Xubuntu stuff, and vice versa
[05:21] <mpt> Besides which, asking people what GUI they want to use is a meaningless question to ~99.9% of the population
[05:22] <Rohinton> right - they are - I say give us smaller bits to bite...
[05:22] <Rohinton> yes - you have a point too.
[05:23] <Rohinton> but the default of gnome seems to be good for 90% - I wonder what the download stats are for the different ISOs? - which ever seems the most popular should be the default...
[05:24] <Hobbsee> oops, capslock
[05:24] <Rohinton> also just looked at the dvd - 4.2 GB is an even longer download than the three CDs... :-)
[05:25] <ivoks> Rohinton: well, software has size :)
[05:25] <Hobbsee> please dont tell me you're trying to get ubuntu onto multiple cds, suse/mandriva style...
[05:26] <ivoks> Hobbsee: i think no one wants that
[05:26] <Hobbsee> ivoks: oh good.  
[05:26] <Hobbsee> ivoks: are you a core dev?
[05:27] <Hobbsee> by any chance?
[05:28] <ivoks> nope :)
[05:28] <Hobbsee> ivoks: aww, damn
[05:28] <Rohinton> right but there are limits...
[05:50] <Hobbsee> tfheen: ping @ amarok?
[06:33] <fabbione> morning
[06:33] <Hobbsee> hey fabbione!
[07:21] <tfheen> Hobbsee: hiya
[07:21] <fabbione> hey tfheen 
[07:21] <Hobbsee> hey tfheen :)
[07:21] <Hobbsee> tfheen: when's herd4 out?
[07:22] <LaserJock> "when it's ready"? :-)
[07:23] <tfheen> Hobbsee: today, hopefully.
[07:24] <Hobbsee> tfheen: got an upload of amarok, with some fixes from upstream.  cool
[07:24] <dholbach> good morning
[07:25] <tfheen> hello Daniel
[07:25] <dholbach> hey Tollef!
[07:25] <dholbach> how's it going?
[07:26] <tfheen> slept too little and a bit hungry, but otherwise ok-ish.
[07:26] <tfheen> wanting to get herd out now.
[07:26] <dholbach> same here :)
[07:26] <dholbach> how's herd looking?
[07:27] <LaserJock> feisty?
[07:27] <tfheen> I think we have been bitten by all the bugs which are supposed to bite us so far, so I am just hoping we are not going to run into oversizedness or other fun.
[07:28] <Fujitsu> tfheen: That's a little bit hopefully, isn't it?
[07:28] <Fujitsu> *hopeful
[07:28] <tfheen> I'm building candidate ISOs now; that is, the i386 ones failed to build due to a fun soyuz bug.
[07:29] <tfheen> the others should be ready already.
[07:29] <Fujitsu> What was with the buildds being rather stuffed last night?
[07:29] <tfheen> a launchpad upgrade where somebody forgot to restart the services afterwards.
[07:29] <Fujitsu> Haha.
[07:37] <tfheen> candidate ISOs up, please test.
[07:37] <tfheen> I'll file the tracker bugs now.
[07:46] <Kagou> hi
[07:51] <pitti> Good morning!
[07:57] <dholbach> heya pitti
[07:57] <pitti> hey dholbach 
[08:14] <Mez> pitti / keescook can you please have a look over bug 84657 and let me know where to go from where it is
[08:14] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 84657 in edgy-backports "Security update for rar/unrar (CVE-2007-0855)" [Undecided,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/84657
[08:14] <Mez> oh, nvm - I jsut didnt get the email
[09:59] <dholbach> heya seb128
[09:59] <seb128> hi dholbach
[10:06] <tfheen> heno: tracking bugs are filed. :-)
[10:07] <heno> tfheen: cool, I'll start herding people to them :)
[10:07] <tfheen> heno: excellent.
[10:08] <cjwatson> mjg59: not certain. Looking at the code, ioperm() should have been called almost immediately before for a range that includes that port
[10:10] <heno> tfheen: I guess you script doesn't close bugs that I've opened by hand (Herd 3), so I'll close those again manually too
[10:10] <tfheen> heno: correct.  I didn't know what to do about those, so I just left them.  Thanks for closing them.
[10:20] <dholbach> hey mvo
[10:29] <mvo> heyja dholbach
[10:35] <seb128> tfheen: can we do universe syncs during a freeze or better to wait after the freeze?
[10:37] <tfheen> seb128: just do them; they probably won't hit the archive since the publisher is disabled, though.
[10:38] <seb128> tfheen: ok, thank you
[10:56] <ogra> tfheen, no new live iso for edubuntu ?
[10:59] <tfheen> ogra: hmm, I thought I built new ones last night, but apparently not, will fix now
[11:00] <ogra> thanks :)
[11:10] <tfheen> ogra: done
[11:11] <tfheen> grr
[11:18] <ogra> grr ?
[11:18] <tfheen> yes, grr.
[11:18] <ogra> why ?
[11:18] <tfheen> the alternate amd64 CD is busticated due to d-i/kernel mismatch.
[11:37] <tfheen> ogra: I suspect your alternates are going to be broken; the installer seed hadn't the new kernel ABI in.
[11:37] <ivoks> pitti: what's with cups? says 'changed by me' but i didn't touch it, i swear :)
[11:39] <ogra> tfheen, there are no seed differences apart from mdz's last commit in my bzr
[11:39] <pitti> ivoks: I used your debdiff (slightly modified) to give credit where credit is due ;)
[11:40] <tfheen> ogra: yes, there are.
[11:40] <pitti> ivoks: Soyuz just seems to have a hiccup right now, it doesn't see the upload
[11:40] <cjwatson> damn, I'm sorry, I forgot about the seed change
[11:40] <cjwatson> tfheen: are you doing that now?
[11:40] <ivoks> pitti: that was a long long time ago; i don't have time for cups for months now :(
[11:40] <tfheen> cjwatson: already done.
[11:40] <cjwatson> ok
[11:40] <ogra> tfheen, hmm, why doesnt bzr missing show them ?
[11:41] <tfheen> ogra: because I merged them five minutes ago.
[11:41] <ogra> oh
[11:41] <ogra> ok
[11:42] <tfheen> cjwatson: I need to wait for the supermirror to update, right?
[11:42] <cjwatson> yeah
[11:57] <tfheen> new ubuntu alternate images up.
[11:58] <tfheen> heno: ^^ ; new tracker bugs filed.
[11:59] <heno> tfheen: thanks
[12:11] <tfheen> ogra: new -server images for you
[12:12] <ogra> thanks a lot :)
[12:12] <tfheen> .. and tracker bugs filed.
[12:31] <tfheen> cjwatson: would it make sense for ubiquity to fade the X screen to black when you click "reboot the system"?
[12:31] <tfheen> also, current ubiquity doesn't seem to reboot for me.
[12:32] <fabbione> tfheen: there is a bug for it it seems
[12:32] <fabbione> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/85177
[12:32] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 85177 in ubiquity "Beeping sound starts on D3C5105 after the end of installation process with Feisty herd 3 desktop CD" [Undecided,Needs info]  
[12:32] <fabbione> tfheen: no reboot too
[12:32] <fabbione> the sound might be a broken BIOS
[12:33] <tfheen> fabbione: except I don't hear any beeping.
[12:33] <tfheen> and this used to work just fine.
[12:36] <tfheen> what's up?
[12:36] <Hobbsee> just got home from work :)
[12:36] <Hobbsee> got elected as part of the op council :)
[12:36] <tfheen> nice :-)
[12:37] <poningru> open patents?
[12:37] <poningru> open parents?
[12:37] <poningru> open pa... maybe I should leave the rest of my guesses locked up in my mind
[12:37] <Hobbsee> poningru: ops.  the ones who can kick
[12:38] <tepsipakki> Hobbsee: that's evil ;)
[12:38] <Hobbsee> tepsipakki: me?  evil?  surely not!
[12:38] <tepsipakki> haha
[12:39] <tfheen> ah
[12:39] <tfheen> powermanagement-interface needs to be updated for the new gdm socket location
[12:40] <tfheen> oh well, I'll just releasenote that bit
[12:42] <Treenaks> ah! new gdm socket location
[12:42] <Treenaks> that explains why my gnome-screensaver refused to let me back in
[12:42] <Treenaks> (while complaining about gdm)
[12:43] <Fujitsu> That was fixed last night, Treenaks.,
[12:43] <Treenaks> Fujitsu: well. yes. but not if you hadn't restarted gdm :)
[12:46] <cjwatson> tfheen: ubiquity just pokes gdm/gnome-session to reboot; if there's fading to be done then they should do it
[12:47] <tfheen> cjwatson: no, it calls gdm-signal which needs updating; I filed bug #85320
[12:47] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 85320 in powermanagement-interface "powermanagement-interface: needs updating for new GDM control socket location" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/85320
[12:47] <cjwatson> oh, yeah, I'd forgotten that gdm-signal wasn't part of gdm
[12:48] <tfheen> it's harmless enough so I'll just releasenote it.
[12:48] <cjwatson> tfheen: but what I mean is, fade to black should be done by those tools if they don't already
[12:48] <tfheen> cjwatson: ah, ok.
[12:49] <tfheen> maybe gdm should be taught, then.
[12:58] <tfheen> Riddell: you have new alternates as well, too
[01:02] <tfheen> ogra: how's your testing going?
[01:03] <tfheen> Riddell: ^^ likewise
[01:03] <Riddell> tfheen: i386 desktop is lovely
[01:04] <Kano> hi, one user gets always kernel panic with asrock k7s41 and 2.6.20 kernel - standard generic config or one without ide, does not matter
[01:04] <Kano> any ideas
[01:05] <tfheen> Kano: file a bug in launchpad.
[01:05] <Kano> well it is not my system
[01:05] <Hobbsee> file a bug for them, or get them to file a bug.
[01:05] <tfheen> Riddell: good to hear; would you mind putting that info into the relevant bug at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-iso-tests/+bugs ?
[01:06] <Kano> SiS 741 chipset
[01:06] <Kano> do you have something similar to test with?
[01:06] <Kano> http://www.asrock.com/mb/overview.asp?Model=K7S41&s=n
[01:09] <Kano> btw. I let my users test a kernel with that modified config:
[01:10] <Kano> http://kanotix.com/files/kernel/kernel-update-pack-noide/source/kanotix-flavour.patch
[01:10] <Kano> that against git and then only the kanotix flavour compiled
[01:12] <Kano> but the one with problems testet a pure generic kernel too
[01:13] <Kano> skynix on that server
[01:20] <geser> pitti: can you rerun your rdepends script on the mozilla source?
[01:20] <pitti> geser: sure
[01:21] <Riddell> tfheen, heno: what are the bug status's that were decided for iso testing?  Test case type: manual partitioning
[01:21] <pitti> geser: updated on my people page
[01:21] <Riddell> Date of testing: 20070215
[01:21] <Riddell> md5sum confirmed: No
[01:21] <Riddell> doh
[01:21] <Riddell> Bugs identified: Bug #85320
[01:21] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 85320 in powermanagement-interface "powermanagement-interface: needs updating for new GDM control socket location" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/85320
[01:22] <Riddell> tfheen, heno: was going to say that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ReportingResults doesn't list them
[01:22] <heno> Riddell: I'm using In Progress for a sucessful test
[01:22] <tfheen> Riddell: so far it's been "rejected" => iso is bad, fix released => iso is released at least.
[01:22] <tfheen> with the addition heno mentioned, I think we have something usable?
[01:23] <heno> and that too
[01:23] <Riddell> I'll update that wiki page
[01:23] <ogra> tfheen, my ppc kernel panics :(
[01:23] <heno> Riddell: thanks
[01:23] <tfheen> ogra: ugh.
[01:23] <tfheen> ogra: good thing ppc is a port architecture now, eh? :-)
[01:24] <ogra> kernel bug at mm/slab.c:610! is what i see on the screen ...
[01:25] <ogra> and above is a segfault
[01:25] <tfheen> pitti: can you test a ppc CD?
[01:25] <pitti> tfheen: yup, already rsyncing
[01:25] <tfheen> thanks.
[01:25] <ogra> thats the server CD 
[01:25] <ogra> i'll check desktop
[01:26] <tfheen> it's the same kernel, so you should see it there too, I suspect.
[01:26] <ogra> bah, and its lying ... it says it would reboot in 180secs
[01:27] <geser> pitti: gnash, swfdec0.3 and videolink have mozilla-dev as an alternative to libxul-dev; enimail-mailnews is to be removed; gtk2hs ftbfs (because of ghc 6.6) and I've filed an uvf exception to get a fixed version in
[01:28] <geser> pitti: do you see any packages preventing the removal of mozilla?
[01:28] <pitti> geser: right, the script doesn't handle alternative dependencies well
[01:29] <pitti> geser: what about the rdepends on mozilla-browser?
[01:29] <pitti> geser: libgtk-mozembed-ruby1.8, wysihtml-el, tilp?
[01:30] <geser> I've filed removals on mozilla-locale-*, mozilla-checky and mozilla-cascades
[01:30] <pitti> geser: ... and gcjwebplugin-4.1
[01:30] <geser> libgtk-mozembed-ruby1.8 is bug #85156
[01:30] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 85156 in ruby-gnome2 "[Remove]  Remove libgtk-mozembed-ruby from feisty" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/85156
[01:30] <pitti> geser: ah, gcjwebplugin has an alternative dependency
[01:31] <geser> for wysihtml-el and tilp I've uploaded a fixed version
[01:31] <pitti> so does wysihtml-el
[01:31] <pitti> geser: oh, alternative deps are fine
[01:31] <pitti> better and cleaner to prefer firefox, of course
[01:31] <pitti> but no reason to deviate from Debian just for this
[01:32] <pitti> geser: hmm, removal of libgtk-mozembed-ruby1.8? it doesn't build against firefox-dev?
[01:32] <geser> replaced with ruby-gnome2
[01:32] <pitti> ah
[01:32] <pitti> yup, sounds sane
[01:33] <pitti> geser: feisty is frozen ATM and the publisher disabled, so I think I cannot remove packages right now
[01:33] <pitti> geser: but I have my archive day tomorrow, that'll be the slaughter fest :)
[01:34] <cjwatson> pitti: FYI I've updated all the bits of the installer I could find for debian-maintainer-field in bzr
[01:34] <cjwatson> pitti: so no need to upload for those
[01:34] <tfheen> pitti: you can remove packages now, but they won't take effect until after the publisher runs.
[01:34] <pitti> cjwatson: ah, nice; we'll wait for the outcome of the discussion anyway
[01:35] <cjwatson> in the case of the installer it was easy because ubuntu-installer@lists.ubuntu.com is an appropriate contact address
[01:36] <pitti> cjwatson: did you use Original-Maintainer or XSBC-?
[01:36] <doko> pitti, seb128: could you have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PyDbgBuilds to see if that is understandable?
[01:37] <pitti> doko: right, I wanted to discuss this with you anyway
[01:37] <cjwatson> pitti: XSBC-
[01:37] <pitti> doko: instead of adding dozens of NEW -dbg packages to the archive, can these packages be constructed with pkg-create-dbgsym?
[01:37] <cjwatson> the installer already uses XB- stuff so I didn't really care
[01:37] <cjwatson> easy enough to change later if we want
[01:37] <pitti> doko: ... and do we want that? (i. e. the python -dbgsym stuff in the external archive)
[01:38] <doko> pitti, cjwatson: do we care about of correct maintainer fields, when a binary package is in another section (main/universe)?
[01:39] <cjwatson> no
[01:39] <doko> pitti: 1) no, it needs separate compilation; we maybe could hack around it for distutils based builds, but for other packages not using distutils you have no chance
[01:39] <cjwatson> MOTUs can't effectively maintain a binary in universe if the source is in main
[01:41] <doko> 2) I currently add the debug symbols for the normal extensions to the -dbg package as well. How do you handle other -dbg packages? just creating an empty dbgsym package and depending on the -dbg package?
[01:42] <pitti> doko: -dbgsym packages have a Conflicts: to all -dbg packages that a source generates
[01:42] <doko> pitti: that would be bad ...
[01:42] <pitti> doko: but it doesn't sound like p-c-d is the right tool here, so nevermind
[01:43] <doko> pitti: ok, se we have to make sure, that a python debug package always includes the debug symbols for the normal extension as well.
[01:49] <pitti> doko: do these steps mean that building with python-dbg will generate both the debug and non-debug extensions? or does this require a multibuild?
[01:50] <doko> pitti: you need separate calls to python and python-dbg for each extension
[01:51] <pitti> doko: ah, I looked at python-apt.debdiff
[01:51] <seb128> doko: do we really benefit from that? like is there a need to change that many packages for that?
[01:53] <pitti> ogra, tfheen: ppc/desktop boots fine here, no oopses
[01:54] <ogra> still burning desktop here ... probably my media is broken
[01:55] <doko> seb128: you don't need to change them at all, if you don't need it. isn't debugging for whimps?
[01:56] <seb128> doko: well, to be honest standard python trace are often enough and we get probably almost no bugs for most of packages listed on that page
[01:56] <doko> pitti: another idea would be to put the debug extensions in the same package, and allowing p-c-d to strip out these files
[01:56] <ogra> hmm, desktop seems to work
[01:56] <seb128> like python-gmenu
[01:56] <ogra> i'll finishe the test and redo server
[01:56] <pitti> doko: indeed, interesting
[01:57] <doko> pitti: but ... debian incompatible ...
[01:57] <pitti> doko: if these -dbg builds will go to Debian, too, and we can eventually just sync everything, then the current approach seems fine
[01:59] <jwendell> seb128, good morning
[01:59] <seb128> hi jwendell
[02:01] <jwendell> seb128, tsclient doesn't have an upstream bug tracker, i tried to mail its author, without success... what to do if i want to write patches?
[02:01] <jwendell> any suggestion?
[02:01] <seb128> attach them to launchpad
[02:01] <seb128> and mail them to upstream
[02:01] <doko> seb128: yes, often enough for crashes; could you already track down the crashes in pygtk? the -dbg package give you an additional aid. unfortunately you cannot just rebuild an extension as a drop in to enable these.
[02:01] <seb128> we can patch the package
[02:02] <seb128> doko: well, a -dbg would be useful for pygtk, I'm just wondering if we need to do it for all the small side packages as well
[02:02] <ogra> argh ... my ltsp is broken ....
[02:03] <ogra> tfheen, i can fix that through a -meta change ...
[02:03] <doko> seb128: please see the comment just above the table ... and maybe clarify it
[02:03] <seb128> doko: same remark than pitti though, if Debian do it as well and we can just sync instead of keeping the diff that would be fine
[02:04] <doko> seb128: sure, I will propose that to Debian
[02:04] <tfheen> ogra: please
[02:04] <ogra> tfheen, i'm missing the ubuntu usplash theme on the edubuntu cd for ltsp, ok with you if i upload a seed change ? (will only need a rebiuld of -server)
[02:04] <ogra> ok, thanks
[02:04] <seb128> doko: hum, k, I see
[02:10] <jwendell> seb128, will patches for tsclient get in feisty? or it's too late?
[02:10] <seb128> jwendell: depending of the patch, there is still several weeks to fix bugs, no reason to not accept it
[02:10] <jwendell> seb128, including wishes? :)
[02:10] <jwendell> or just bugs?
[02:12] <doko> seb128: clarified on the wiki
[02:12] <ogra> tfheen, ppc server still paicing, even with a new media
[02:12] <ogra> *panicing
[02:12] <thep> asac, hi, i'm here to talk about the firefox thai patch.
[02:13] <ogra> pitti, did you test alternate on ppc ? 
[02:13] <seb128> jwendell: depending, I can't say without any detail, depend of the change, the complexity of the patch, etc
[02:13] <jwendell> seb128, ok. i'll try
[02:14] <pitti> ogra: no, I didn't
[02:14] <ogra> could you ? 
[02:17] <pitti> ogra: I can give it a try, yes, I just need to backup my laptop before
[02:17] <ogra> just if the kernel boots
[02:17] <pitti> ogra: or do you get the oops already in the installer?
[02:17] <pitti> ah
[02:18] <ogra> its segfailting directly for me
[02:18] <ogra> *segfaulting
[02:18] <pitti> ogra: burning
[02:26] <tfheen> ogra: haven't you had a chance to test any images yet?
[02:27] <ogra> tfheen, ppc and i386 desktop are fine here ... i have just tested the first server iso, recognizing the ltsp breakage
[02:28] <tfheen> ogra: please mark the ok images as such in the bug tracker (in progress)
[02:28] <ogra> will do
[02:28] <tfheen> thanks
[02:29] <ogra> tfheen, https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/+branch/ubuntu-seeds/edubuntu.feisty says it has picked up the change
[02:31] <tfheen> ogra: new server ISOs building; please reject the old server bugs.
[02:31] <ogra> ok
[02:31] <Riddell> mvo_: does the dist-upgrade upload you did last night still need approval by a distro manager?
[02:35] <pitti> tfheen, ogra: hmm, current ppc/alternate doesn't boot for me
[02:35] <ogra> right
[02:35] <pitti> argh, give me my CD back, you bloody ibook...
[02:35] <ogra> pitti, "Kernel Bug at mm/slab.c:610!"
[02:36] <ogra> thats what i see after a segfault ...
[02:36] <pitti> ogra: I don't see anything, it just immediately returns to yaboot
[02:36] <tfheen> ogra: but -desktop works?
[02:36] <ogra> oh, intresting
[02:36] <ogra> yep, -desktop is fine
[02:36] <tfheen> weird.
[02:36] <tfheen> I'll just not release -alternate for ppc then.
[02:36] <pitti> tfheen: agreed
[02:36] <pitti> tfheen: handy timing, this announcement :-P
[02:37] <tfheen> pitti: yep, excellent, I'd say.
[02:37] <ogra> heh
[02:37] <tfheen> though, we have dropped releasing images in the past if they were broken and we didn't have time to fix them, so it's not the first time..
[02:40] <Lathiat> you used to be able to hack that up with IDE
[02:40] <Lathiat> double pole switch with the jumpers
[02:40] <Lathiat> on cable select
[02:40] <doko> pitti: did we already agree on the maintainer address for main?
[02:41] <tfheen> I'm fairly sure I can get it done with SATA too, I just need to solder a bit.
[02:41] <jdong> Lathiat: lol yeah I've actrually seen one of those :)
[02:41] <pitti> doko: no, it's on the agenda today
[02:41] <Lathiat> tfheen: wouldnt be so easy 
[02:41] <tfheen> Lathiat: why not?
[02:41] <Lathiat> you cant just flick the order
[02:41] <Lathiat> and if your moving the data lines on the sata cable
[02:41] <Lathiat> mind interference on a crap switch
[02:42] <pitti> tfheen, ogra: argh, silly me; burned the wrong CD *brown paperbag* burning again...
[02:43] <tfheen> I'd have one cable per drive and just one to the controller and a physical switch to switch between them.  No need to munge about with ordering.
[02:43] <Lathiat> my point being if your switching the data lines you have to mind how much interference your whacking in the line with a dodgy switch :)
[02:43] <Lathiat> might be easier to simply power/unpower the drives
[02:43] <tfheen> I'd power it off before switching.
[02:43] <Lathiat> tfheen: im talking running interference
[02:43] <Lathiat> because the link is shit, etc
[02:43] <jdong> tfheen: SATA cables are so easy to hook up so why not just turn off and physically switch cables?
[02:44] <tfheen> true, but I guess I can get that decent-ish.
[02:44] <tfheen> jdong: because that requires me to crawl under my desk and I'm lazy.
[02:44] <Lathiat> be interested to see if it works
[02:44] <jdong> tfheen: haha :) works for me
[02:44] <Lathiat> IDE version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSvRlJXoT_g
[02:48] <tfheen> something like http://www.austech.info/showthread.php?t=145767
[02:49] <Lathiat> eww that looks so ugly
[02:49] <Lathiat> haha
[02:49] <Lathiat> but yeh
[02:50] <mvo_> Riddell: I think so, yes. but let me check
[02:51] <cjwatson> pitti,doko: I did my best to merge your sets of debian-maintainer-field agenda items; shout at the start of the meeting if I missed anything
[02:51] <pitti> cjwatson: thanks, will have a look
[02:51] <cjwatson> Keybuk will send it out shortly, I think
[02:52] <pitti> tfheen, ogra: ppc alternate installer boots fine here
[02:52] <tfheen> pitti: coolie.
[02:57] <asac> thep: you have an upstream bug you are engaged on?
[02:58] <thep> asac, yes, it's bug #7969
[02:58] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 7969 in lilo "lilo segfaults" [High,Rejected]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/7969
[02:58] <pitti> Riddell: I just committed some missing apport-qt features, Michael Hofmann kindly added them (Details and complete/reduced radio button)
[02:59] <asac> thep: in bugzilla? quite low number :)
[02:59] <Riddell> pitti: reduced radio button?
[02:59] <pitti> Riddell: radio button for sending a complete or reduced report
[02:59] <thep> asac, of course, a very ancient bug
[02:59] <asac> thep: whats the state on it?
[02:59] <Riddell> pitti: oh, cool
[02:59] <pitti> Riddell: where reduced == no core dump, for modem users
[03:00] <thep> asac, i'm describing in details in a reply mail
[03:00] <thep> asac, it's quite long. i also have some updates to propose for feisty
[03:01] <asac> thep: thanks a lot ... we have to finally work it out with upstream... so I need all infos I can get :)
[03:33] <ogra> tfheen, ppc works with video=ofonly for me, i never needed that before so i didnt try (even though an oops is still evil)
[04:07] <tfheen> Riddell: how's the rest of kubuntu looking?
[04:07] <tfheen> ogra: likewise; how's the rest of edubuntu?
[04:09] <gpocentek> tfheen: did you had feedback from Jani about Xubuntu?
[04:09] <tfheen> gpocentek: no, none at all.
[04:09] <gpocentek> ok...
[04:10] <tfheen> I'm making new xubuntu images now, I'll file bugs when they're ready.
[04:10] <gpocentek> I really didn't have time to test isos, I'll try to do this today
[04:10] <gpocentek> tfheen: thanks
[04:20] <tkamppeter> Someone knows the usual way under Ubuntu to configure X if one has connected a new monitor?
[04:20] <gnomefreak> tkamppeter: this is not a support channel. see #ubuntu for support
[04:21] <tkamppeter> sorry, forgot to change to the right chnanel
[04:32] <Keybuk> random: can we drop bazaar from feisty?
[04:32] <Treenaks> Keybuk: yeah, who needs it...
[04:32] <Treenaks> (or is bazaar the old pre-bzr thing?)
[04:32] <Keybuk> it's confusing to people
[04:32] <Keybuk> exactly
[04:32] <Keybuk> demonstrating my point
[04:32] <Keybuk> bazaar is the Arch thing
[04:32] <Keybuk> and is not bzr
[04:32] <Treenaks> # apt-get install bazaar
[04:32] <Keybuk> so when you say to someone "install bazaar, and get http://bazaar.launchpad.net/..."
[04:32] <Treenaks> apt: itym bzr. kthxbye
[04:32] <Treenaks> # 
[04:33] <Keybuk> the package they absolutely *do not* want to install, is "bazaar"
[04:33] <Keybuk> :p
[04:34] <bddebian> Heya
[04:35] <Tonio_> pitti: you removed digikam from kubuntu desktop-i386 seed ? any problem with it ?
[04:36] <elmo> Keybuk: dropping it entirely is a bit harsh - renaming it would probably be appropriate though
[04:43] <pitti> Tonio_: Riddell did, to save spave
[04:43] <pitti> Tonio_: space, too
[04:44] <Tonio_> pitti: argh...
[04:44] <Tonio_> pitti: okay :'(
[04:45] <Tonio_> space on the cd becomes a real issue for further developpment...
[04:46] <Tonio_> pitti: well thanks for the response ;)
[05:27] <tfheen> Riddell: gentle nag; how's the testing going?
[05:33] <heno> Riddell: I can help you with an amd64 or i386 image. Where is my help most useful?
[05:33] <heno> ie which image is last on your own list?
[05:40] <ogra> tfheen, edubuntu apart from amd64 desktop (and the video=ofonly thing with ppc) which i still have to test is all good
[05:43] <heno> ogra: could you mark the good ones as In Progress here? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-iso-tests/+bugs
[05:44] <ogra> heno, can you open a set for server 20070215.1 ?
[05:44] <ogra> and desktop 20070215
[05:44] <mvo> heno: do you think we could add upgrade testing to the new schema as well?
[05:45] <ogra> or am i free to do it ? (i see all bugs are opened by Ubuntu ISO testing)
[05:45] <heno> mvo: Yes He we usually tracked those for alphas?
[05:45] <heno> ogra: I think you can add bugs easily
[05:46] <ogra> ok
[05:46] <mvo> heno: good questions :) IIRC we had some basic testing 
[05:46] <mvo> heno: not sure how much the community can help, its a lot of work without some sort of vm or snapshot functionality
[06:02] <doko> pitti: libwps diff is now reduced
[06:06] <keescook> tfheen: (or other archive admins) please shove my security update for imagemagick through for breezy, dapper, edgy.  :)
[06:10] <pitti> doko: nice, thanks
[06:17] <troy_s> security update for imagemagick?
[06:18] <keescook> troy_s: yup.
[06:18] <troy_s> keescook: What hole does it expose?
[06:18] <keescook> troy_s: it's a fix for CVE-2007-0770 (PALM files)
[06:18] <Mez> keescook, wanna work on the rar thing now, get it out the way ?
[06:19] <keescook> Mez: yup, I was just about to switch gears and start looking at that.  :)
[06:19] <Mez> sweet, well I'm here :D
[06:19] <keescook> Mez: do you have a tested debdiff for unrar?
[06:19] <Mez> keescook, just making one for debian
[06:20] <keescook> okay, I'll work on it.  :)
[06:24] <Mez> keescook, are you ok to accept a debdiff including the debian version (New maintainer + dh_compat upgrade?)
[06:25] <keescook> Mez: I'd rather not for stable release updates.  Mostly I'm just curious if a given debdiff has been tested on each of the stable releases.  :)
[06:25] <Mez> ah kk
[06:25] <Mez> just debian has -1 ubuntu has -0.1
[06:26] <keescook> Well, once it's in Debian, I'll just request a sync for feisty.  that shouldn't be a problem.
[06:27] <Mez> keescook, ubuntu already has the updated rar in feisty (I did a manual upload as debians version needs tweaking ubuntu's doesnt!)
[06:28] <Mez> keescook, we're doing security releases for debian :D
[06:28] <tfheen> keescook: the publisher is running now, so it should go as normal
[06:28] <keescook> tfheen: great, thanks.
[06:30] <heno> hm, I'm not getting rsync or http downlods from cdimage ATM
[06:34] <iwj> dsc0t-mawktest       PASS
[06:38] <pitti> iwj: autopkgtest FTW? :)
[06:40] <iwj> pitti: Well, FTdraw for the moment I think.
[06:40] <iwj> root@samual8:~/adt-play# lvchange -a n /dev/glalonde/adt_feisty_base
[06:40] <iwj> Segmentation fault (core dumped)
[06:42] <iwj> I think this may in fact be my fault.
[06:44] <LNX1> hi ! A simple question for you ;o)
[06:44] <Treenaks> this is not a support channel :)
[06:45] <LNX1> What is the new compilation flag that make feisty so fast? (I think in glibc 2.5)
[06:45] <LNX1> i known ;)
[06:45] <LNX1> I dont need support
[06:45] <crimsun> -fomgfast
[06:45] <LNX1> thanks !
[06:45] <_ion> -O9999
[06:45] <_ion> -fgentoo
[06:45] <pitti> lol
[06:45] <LNX1> lol
[06:46] <pitti> LNX1: we put doko in a room with just water and a computer and didn't let him out before he optimized gcc by factor 2
[06:46] <LNX1> lol ;O)
[06:47] <LNX1> ...but for sure, feisty is more responsivness on my laptop then edgy
[06:47] <LNX1> sorry for my bad english ;)
[06:49] <LNX1> thanks , I will discuss about that in the ubuntu channel ! thanks again guys
[06:50] <jwendell> hi, pitti
[06:50] <pitti> hi jwendell 
[06:50] <jwendell> pitti, all packages must have a X-Ubuntu-Gettext-Domain in their .desktop file?
[06:51] <pitti> jwendell: all .desktop files that have translatable strings, yes
[06:51] <jwendell> pitti, so, we have to create a patch for it, right?
[06:52] <pitti> jwendell: depends; if a source package uses cdbs, then you only need to include the standard gnome.mk
[06:52] <jwendell> pitti, ah... ok
[06:56] <pitti> tfheen: ok to upgrade tzdata from 2007a to 2007b for bug 83446?
[06:56] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 83446 in tzdata "Daylight Saving changes in the United States, Canada, and Bermuda" [High,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/83446
[06:56] <pitti> tfheen: (I'll prepare a SRU as well, but we need the package in feisty first)
[06:56] <ogra> are we ufrozen already ?
[06:56] <ogra> *un
[06:56] <pitti> no, not yet, just getting UFV exception
[06:57] <tfheen> pitti: yeah, looks sensible enough to me.  You've tested the changes?
[06:57] <pitti> tfheen: I'll test them and scrutinize the diff
[06:57] <tfheen> pitti: cheers.
[06:59] <tfheen> ogra: so you're good, sans amd64 desktop?
[06:59] <gpocentek> tfheen: is there a problem with the xubuntu desktop isos?
[07:00] <ogra> tfheen, all good now
[07:00] <ogra> apart from that video=ofonly uglyness
[07:00] <tfheen> ogra: that's for an unsupported platform.
[07:00] <ogra> right
[07:00] <ogra> but still worth to be fixed :)
[07:01] <tfheen> not for herd 4, no.
[07:01] <ogra> (i'm in the community group supporting that platform :) )
[07:01] <ogra> indeed ... but for release
[07:01] <tfheen> ogra: sure, but ports have never hold up milestones, betas, previews or release.
[07:02] <tfheen> gpocentek: no, I think it's fine.
[07:02] <tfheen> gpocentek: ah, no, there's something wrong with the -desktop ones, yes.
[07:02] <tfheen> I'll investigate.
[07:02] <gpocentek> thanks :)
[07:03] <gpocentek> amd alternate is OK, i'm rsyncing i386
[07:10] <spike> hi
[07:11] <spike> I'm currently looking at opening a bug against lvm2 package in edgy and would appreciate some directions on what to add to it
[07:11] <pitti> tfheen: oh, false alarm, we don't need a new feisty package; these changes are already in
[07:12] <pitti> tfheen: 2007b just fixes a single leap second (trivial diff); we can still update it, though
[07:12] <spike> the problem is with the symlinking/automagic. after installation any command will produce something like: No program "lvmdiskscan" found for your current version of LVM
[07:12] <spike> invoking /lib/lvm-200/$command will work just fine
[07:13] <spike> not sure where the problem is since /lib/lvm-default/ is correctly a symlink to /lib/lvm-200/
[07:13] <cjwatson> kylem: you volunteered to help out with X last week - do you think you could follow up to the thread on ubuntu-devel@?
[07:14] <spike> altho it could be a problem with my Xen kernel..
[07:14] <kylem> cjwatson, yup.
[07:14] <cjwatson> mvo_: you muttered something too, if you have time
[07:14] <kylem> cjwatson, i thought i had, haven't gotten that far into my mail yet.
[07:14] <cjwatson> we should try to get that moving ASAP after herd-4, at least the initial round of syncs to make testing easier
[07:15] <cjwatson> kylem: let's coordinate on #ubuntu-x tomorrow
[07:16] <mvo_> cjwatson: yep
[07:16] <kylem> cjwatson, ok.
[07:20] <pitti> cjwatson: could you please sign-off bug 85394? I don't like approving my own SRU
[07:20] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 85394 in tzdata "New timezone data 2007b" [High,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/85394
[07:21] <victory747> I have a question about the daily feisty install cd.  I just downloaded the alt i386 install cd.  It seems there is no way to manually partition with LVM.
[07:21] <victory747> I had to start it from the console with vgchange
[07:21] <victory747> Is this a known issue, by design, or an oversight?
[07:22] <_ion> It works with the Herd 3 server install CD at least.
[07:22] <victory747> there was a guided whole disk lvm option
[07:23] <victory747> but in manual option all there is is "guided partitioning" and "help on partitioning"
[07:23] <cjwatson> victory747: you need to create individual partitions and select LVM physical volume under "Use as:" 
[07:23] <cjwatson> victory747: then once you've got some of those you'll see an LVM configuration option appear on the main partitioner menu
[07:23] <victory747> but i already have existing partitions
[07:23] <cjwatson> you may have to tweak their use-as
[07:24] <cjwatson> it might not have detected that properly
[07:24] <victory747> the volume group is not even active when starting out
[07:24] <victory747> so you mean select the pv choose LVM?
[07:25] <cjwatson> yeah, Use as: physical volume for LVM
[07:25] <victory747> that won't hose my existing volume group?
[07:25] <cjwatson> then at the main partitioner menu, "Configure the Logical Volume Manager"
[07:26] <victory747> ok, so this is by design
[07:26] <victory747> but it doesnt' seem very intuitive
[07:26] <victory747> it seems to me that if a pv already exists, it would be best to activate the vg so it shows up right away
[07:26] <cjwatson> shouldn't affect the existing volume group, no
[07:27] <victory747> let me back up and try that, then
[07:27] <cjwatson> the problem with activating it is that it then becomes difficult to stop using LVM
[07:27] <cjwatson> you're right that it's not ideal, though
[07:27] <victory747> dealing with lvm in the installer has always been a pain when the lvm already exists
[07:27] <cjwatson> it would really be better to show what it would be if activated, rather than actually activating it
[07:28] <cjwatson> that sort of design would also get rid of some intermediate commit requirements
[07:28] <cjwatson> but it's a good deal of work
[07:28] <victory747> hmm
[07:29] <victory747> the thing is, it shows what my filesystems are for all my partitions except the lvm when i start the partitioner
[07:29] <cjwatson> right
[07:29] <victory747> seems to me it should show that as well.
[07:29] <cjwatson> right, hence "show what it would be if activated"
[07:29] <victory747> yeah, i guess.  i guess i don't see why it can't be activated from the start
[07:29] <victory747> since they are essentially "partitions" like any other partition
[07:30] <cjwatson> my memory is that that made it much more difficult to delete PVs and replace them with something else
[07:30] <victory747> you use and manage them like any other partition from a practical point of view
[07:30] <cjwatson> possibly because the plumbing needed to tear down VGs wasn't there
[07:30] <cjwatson> and that's just as difficult a usability problem
[07:30] <victory747> so i guess you guys have thought about this
[07:30] <cjwatson> I agree with you that the current situation is not optimal; I'm not defending it so much as explaining it
[07:30] <victory747> hmm, maybe the partitioner needs an overhaul
[07:31] <victory747> but since i'm not really willing to do the work . . .
[07:31] <victory747> :)
[07:31] <cjwatson> not really an overhaul, but LVM and RAID need to be improved and made to fit more into the general structure of the partitioner
[07:31] <cjwatson> rather, the partitioner modules for handling same
[07:31] <cjwatson> unfortunately I have no time for this
[07:31] <victory747> yeah, that would be nice.  i have never liked the way it deals with lvm - very cumbersome
[07:31] <victory747> i almost find it easier to do from the command line
[07:32] <victory747> well, i think i understand how you are doing it now
[07:32] <cjwatson> a way to inspect a VG without activating it would help. Do you know if such a thing exists?
[07:32] <victory747> hmm.  
[07:32] <victory747> well, you can use lvscan without activating a group, can't you?
[07:32] <victory747> let me check . . .
[07:33] <victory747> yes, they show up as inactive
[07:33] <cjwatson> mm, I think so, although its output is not exactly desirable
[07:33] <cjwatson> maybe something can be done with the underlying library code
[07:34] <cjwatson> so the way that partman works for ordinary partitions on hard disks is that, rather than making changes immediately (with the exception of resizing), they're queued up in a model of the disk constructed in /var/lib/partman/device/
[07:34] <cjwatson> devices/
[07:34] <cjwatson> and then committed in one shot at the end
[07:34] <victory747> is it too late to make changes for feisty?  maybe it doesn't really matter, but i've been doing this ubuntu/lvm thing for a while and I was quite confused
[07:34] <cjwatson> but for LVM and RAID, we don't have code to represent them this way yet, nor a way to inspect the LVM/RAID nonintrusively
[07:35] <victory747> oh yeah, but it had to "write" changes in the past before activating the volume groups
[07:35] <cjwatson> (a) it's too late for major feature enhancements, (b) we don't have resources :-(
[07:35] <victory747> i understand.  plus holding all that virtually would be quite a bit of work
[07:35] <cjwatson> most of the LVM and RAID work is done in Debian
[07:35] <victory747> so this change was a debian change?
[07:35] <cjwatson> Simon Huggins has been refactoring RAID, I think, but more with an eye to autopartitioning
[07:36] <victory747> i always do manual partitioning since my stuff is already there and my setup usually rather strange
[07:36] <cjwatson> all the relevant work on LVM in this cycle was done in Debian, yes
[07:36] <victory747> only do auto stuff when helping others install, but it's usually pretty simple
[07:37] <cjwatson> I hadn't been aware that this particular thing had changed - I thought you always had to activate VGs manually
[07:37] <victory747> um, maybe you could add a note to the help part about how to activate lvm if it already exists
[07:37] <victory747> oh, well, in the past i didn't know how to do it manually
[07:37] <victory747> so i would go to "manage lvm"
[07:37] <victory747> and then it would activate it
[07:38] <cjwatson> ah, the menu structure was changed a bit and it's possible that hiding that option when there are no PVs with the right method set was a recent change
[07:38] <victory747> ok, that makes sense
[07:38] <cjwatson> could you file a bug on partman-lvm (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/partman-lvm/+filebug)? I might be able to do something very constrained about that
[07:39] <cjwatson> would need to compare how it worked in edgy
[07:39] <cjwatson> pitti: ok, I'll have a look at that tomorrow
[07:39] <victory747> i dist-upgraded to edgy so don't know that installer, but it's not that the 6.06 installer was that much more intuitive anyway
[07:40] <victory747> i would almost prefer a note in the help files so someone could find it there
[07:40] <victory747> that way it would not clutter the interface but someone looking for it could find it
[07:40] <gnomefreak> didnt someone mention the installer would fail with no kernel found?
[07:40] <victory747> Oh, I also had to modprobe dm-mod
[07:40] <victory747> I forgot about that, too.
[07:41] <victory747> I'll make a note of my experience in launchpad url you gave me
[07:41] <cjwatson> I hate to sound negative, but the help files are actually a real pain for us to change :) they're translated and the resulting change tends to be extremely difficult to merge
[07:41] <victory747> oh! :(
[07:41] <cjwatson> so I'd much prefer something simpler if possible
[07:41] <victory747> ok, well, 
[07:42] <victory747> i'm not sure what to say
[07:42] <cjwatson> gnomefreak: transient
[07:42] <gnomefreak> k
[07:42] <victory747> except if I didn't know about modprobe dm-mod and vgchange -a y 
[07:42] <gnomefreak> ty
[07:42] <cjwatson> having to modprobe dm-mod is certainly a bug, although I don't think that would have been necessary if you'd used the method I suggested from the start
[07:42] <victory747> then I would not have been able to proceed
[07:42] <cjwatson> was probably only because you were doing it by hand
[07:42] <victory747> i was in the partitioner already
[07:43] <victory747> maybe all i had to do was tag the partition as lvm
[07:43] <victory747> then it would have all worked
[07:43] <victory747> i can re-boot the installer and try again if you would like
[07:43] <victory747> i just don't want to take a chance of hosing my pv/vg
[07:43] <cjwatson> mark them as lvm and then select the configure-lvm menu item will modprobe dm-mod as part of its operation
[07:43] <victory747> ok
[07:43] <cjwatson> do_initial_setup() {
[07:43] <cjwatson>         # load required kernel modules
[07:43] <cjwatson>         depmod -a >/dev/null 2>&1
[07:43] <cjwatson>         modprobe dm-mod >/dev/null 2>&1
[07:43] <cjwatson>         modprobe lvm-mod >/dev/null 2>&1
[07:43] <cjwatson> etc.
[07:44] <victory747> I see.
[07:44] <victory747> ok
[07:44] <victory747> ok, well, my problem was that it was not at all intuitive to me, which may or may not mean anything
[07:44] <cjwatson> what was the "use as" for the relevant partitions to start with?
[07:44] <victory747> but i wonder about others who may be int eh same position I am
[07:44] <victory747> I can't remember.  I think it was blank - nothing
[07:45] <cjwatson> the current use should really be autodetected if at all possible
[07:45] <cjwatson> fixing that would help
[07:45] <victory747> you going to be around for a while?  next 15 minutes or so?
[07:45] <cjwatson> and it is supposed to be autodetected
[07:45] <cjwatson> nah, about to go to the pub for dinner
[07:45] <cjwatson> I'll be back later on this evening for the distro team meeting
[07:45] <victory747> i will re-start the installer and tell you what it's saying
[07:45] <victory747> ok
[07:46] <cjwatson> feel free to dump it into that bug
[07:46] <victory747> should i try to file something, or just let it go for now?
[07:46] <victory747> allright
[07:46] <cjwatson> definitely file something or I'll forget
[07:46] <victory747> thanks for your time
[07:46] <cjwatson> np
[07:47] <cjwatson> victory747: #ubuntu-installer is a bit quieter if you want to mention stuff there, and I'll pick it up later
[07:47] <victory747> ok
[08:18] <jwendell> fabbione, are you a vnc maintainer?
[08:21] <mvo__> tepsipakki: would it be possible to add a Packages file to your xorg repository? this way, I would do some testing on the package relationships (e.g. if it upgrades cleanly)
[08:22] <_ion> tepsipakki: Falcon (made by Seveas) is a *very* nice tool for maintaining an apt-getable repository.
[08:31] <tepsipakki> mvo: sure
[08:31] <tepsipakki> _ion: yes, I use that frequently
[08:33] <ogra> kwwii, ping
[08:33] <kwwii> ogra: pong
[08:34] <ogra> kwwii, you promised me a cropped logo :)
[08:34] <kwwii> man, I should complain about a contentless ping, but I am an artist and will let you go on that one :p
[08:34] <ogra> i'm just working o the ldm greeter ...
[08:34] <kwwii> ogra: yeah, let me do that real quick
[08:34] <tepsipakki> mvo__: I'll do that later this evening
[08:34] <kwwii> ogra: I'll send you one, just a minute
[08:34] <ogra> thanks a lot :)
[08:35] <kwwii> ogra: that pic probably won't work on the standard ubuntu bg though
[08:35] <kwwii> never tried
[08:35] <ogra> cairo is a beast ... and i hoped it would be easier than gnomecanvas
[08:35] <kwwii> and now that I look at it, I wonder if sabdfl would like it ;-)
[08:35] <ogra> it wont be on a standard ubuntu brown ...
[08:36] <kwwii> cool
[08:36] <ogra> rather something in red or orange direction ... even yellow might work .. 
[08:36] <ogra> but surely not brown :)
[08:36] <kwwii> cool
[08:37] <_ion> kwwii: I take it you're the guy behind the new usplash artwork? It's really nice, thanks for your work.
[08:38] <kwwii> _ion: glad to hear you like it, thanks :-)
[08:38] <kwwii> _ion: I am getting paid to make it ;-)
[08:38] <mvo__> tepsipakki: thanks
[08:38] <ogra> (for usplash)
[08:39] <kwwii> ogra: good to know, I was kinda worried that it would not be playfull enough 
[08:39] <ogra> i'm happy its a bit more friendly to my eyes :)
[08:40] <ogra> its a bit out of place though, i need to fix the values in the code
[08:42] <Burgwork> kwwii: got a linky to the image?
[08:42] <kwwii> Burgwork: which one?
[08:42] <Burgwork> kwwii: edubuntu upslash
[08:42] <ogra> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/usplash_1024_768.png
[08:44] <ogra> meh, crap ... evo is broken ... 
[08:44] <kwwii> ogra: http://sinecera.de/edubuntu.png
[08:45] <kwwii> sorry that I forgot
[08:45] <ogra> thanks ... 
[08:45] <kwwii> I'll help in any way I can with the ldm, btw
[08:45] <ogra> no problem, i didnt need it yet
[08:45] <ogra> i'll try o make it look as much like gdm as i can ...
[08:47] <kwwii> I've made an svg for gdm, btw, so if you want to take that and simply change the colors, let me know
[08:47] <kwwii> in fact, I have the edubuntu logo as svg too
[08:48] <kwwii> but you do not want to use that as it has a gaussian blur and that would take forever to render live
[08:50] <ogra> hmm
[08:50] <ogra> actually it doesnt look to bad on the brown gdm background
[08:50] <kwwii> I'll test it, one second
[08:51] <ogra> the smooth blur makes it fit in very soft ... so the brown isnt to much in your face
[08:51] <ogra> (still no option, but intresting to know that it doesnt look to evil)
[08:53] <kwwii> ogra: not horrible but it could look better
[08:54] <ogra> indeed
[08:54] <ogra> i just had expected it to be worse 
[08:55] <kwwii> I'll whip out my magic ubuntu palette tool and see what I can come up with
[08:55] <ogra> you knw the colorpalette we use in metacity and gtk ? 
[08:55] <ogra> *know
[08:56] <kwwii> ogra: nope
[08:57] <kwwii> but I can guess that it is a subset of the ubuntu colors, or?
[08:57] <kwwii> red ir iirc
[08:58] <ogra> http://shots.osdir.com/slideshows/slideshow.php?release=754&slide=4
[08:58] <ogra> here is one with metacity border and highlighted selection http://shots.osdir.com/slideshows/slideshow.php?release=754&slide=13
[08:59] <ogra> it uses ubuntulooks 
[08:59] <ogra> and only has a different colorset
[09:02] <kwwii> cool, it is pretty much the same palette that we have in ubuntu, only we use them differently
[09:02] <ogra> right
[09:05] <cprov> hi guys, does someone know how can I make a deb file using data.tar.bz2 instead of data.tar.gz ?
[09:06] <elmo> cprov: look at diveintopython package
[09:06] <thom> cprov: look at debian/rules for diveintopython
[09:07] <thom> (dh_builddeb -- -Zbzip2)
[09:07] <thom> elmo: heh :-)
[09:07] <elmo> (and pre-depends on right version of dpkg)
[09:07] <cprov> elmo: thom: good thanks
[09:15] <Riddell> tfheen: sorry for being offline, my router decided to disconnect while testing
[09:15] <Riddell> tfheen: but amd64 and i386 kubuntu cds are good
[09:19] <kwwii> ogra: here is a quick idea...just changed the outer gradient color of the gdm bg: http://sinecera.de/ldm_bg_idea.png
[09:20] <ogra> kwwii, yeah, thats similar to what i had in mind ... perfect !
[09:20] <ogra> (fruity, you wanna bite it :) )
[09:20] <kwwii> cool, I am making gdm this week, so I'll keep you in mind
[09:20] <kwwii> yeah, very tangerine
[10:02] <tfheen> Riddell: great, thanks.
[10:04] <ogra> seb128, didnt you say we'd get the menu back for gnomecc ? i didnt have it on herd4
[10:04] <seb128> ogra: I said to unmask them with alacarte menu editor for herd4 and we will get them back before feisty
[10:04] <ogra> ah
[10:04] <ogra> ok
[10:04] <seb128> don't be lazy
[10:04] <seb128> that's a few clicks only ;)
[10:05] <ogra> heh, indeed ... i didnt understand i ha to use alacarte ... i have no prob with that 
[10:19] <tepsipakki> mvo: deb http://users.tkk.fi/~tjaalton/xorg72 feisty xorg-test
[10:19] <ogra> tepsipakki, complete ? 
[10:19] <tepsipakki> yes
[10:19] <tepsipakki> well
[10:19] <tepsipakki> no drivers
[10:19] <mvo> tepsipakki: oh, very nice, thanks!
[10:21] <tepsipakki> I just upgraded my box and noticed that some were updated.. should've made it a repo right from the start ;)
[10:22] <tepsipakki> and I have a newer xorg-server with a few more dropped patches, same for mesa
[10:22] <tepsipakki> but they are on my laptop
[10:23] <tepsipakki> maybe I'll dig them up
[10:25] <st3> well, i'll cross-paste here too as i recevied no reply on -kernel
[10:25] <st3> st3 we reported a critical bug about bcm43xx here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-meta/+bug/85404
[10:25] <st3> st3 we are receiving a lot of bug reports from ubuntu users, please fix it asap
[10:25] <st3> st3 thank you
[10:25] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 85404 in linux-source-2.6.20 "bcm43xx completely broken in feisty" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  
[10:25] <st3> exactly
[10:38] <geser> tepsipakki: is there at that url also the complete source availble? I'm trying to build it on my amd64
[10:41] <tfheen> ogra: your serveraddon CD is fine too?  Not just your server CD?
[10:41] <ogra> yep
[10:41] <ogra> :)
[10:41] <ogra> not much that can break atm
[10:43] <tepsipakki> geser: yes
[10:44] <tepsipakki> geser: you might want to hold a bit, there's a new version of x11proto-input which isn't there yet
[10:44] <geser> tepsipakki: is xtrans-dev built from the package from Debian experimental? because I can't see the source there
[10:44] <tepsipakki> oh, that too
[10:45] <tepsipakki> I removed my version when it was uploaded to experimental
[10:45] <tepsipakki> err, when the debian version was uploaded..
[11:00] <Amaranth> tepsipakki: so does it look like they'll be ready in time to have a chance of getting into feisty?
[11:01] <tepsipakki> Amaranth: what I've been told, yes
[11:02] <tepsipakki> but that needs help when they hit the archive, to make sure any possible regressions are dealt with
[11:02] <_ion> Great work, tepsipakki.
[11:02] <tepsipakki> but debian guys are doing testing as well, and so far there are no showstoppers
[11:02] <tepsipakki> _ion: thanks
[11:03] <Amaranth> awesome
[11:04] <ogra> BenC, i have a kernel oops on ppc with the recent herd release, i have to use video=ofonly to get it to boot ... which i didnt have to before
[11:04] <pitti> seb128, mvo: post-install u-n for hwdb-client makes me happy
[11:05] <mvo> pitti: you tried it already?
[11:05] <BenC> ogra: can you send a photo of the oops?
[11:05] <pitti> mvo: no, I mean the concept
[11:05] <mvo> pitti: we need to talk a bit about getting good i18n for it
[11:05] <mvo> pitti: great!
[11:05] <pitti> mvo: we don't even need to touch u-n for that any more, right?
[11:05] <BenC> ogra: BTW, I assume madwifi is working for you...is bcm43xx working any better?
[11:05] <mvo> pitti: this is a weakness currently
[11:05] <pitti> mvo: ah, right, no langpack support
[11:05] <seb128> pitti: good, I think that's a good way as well
[11:05] <ogra> BenC, yes, but not tonight anymore ... (i'm up and running since 13h)
[11:05] <mvo> pitti: yep. also we could do something similar as for the desktop files maybe? you know more about that then I :)
[11:06] <mvo> pitti: but yes, no need to touch u-n, just use what we have there
[11:06] <mvo> + maybe langpack integration if possible without too much work (should be doable)
[11:06] <pitti> mvo: let's talk tomorrow
[11:06] <mvo> pitti: yes, I'm a bit tired
[11:06] <mvo> pitti: but great that you came up with the idea!
[11:07] <pochu> BenC: I'm not sure if you are the right person to tell it, or if it's a kernel bug, but ipw2200 (wireless) is not working anymore in feisty (bug 83637)
[11:07] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 83637 in network-manager "Network-manager doesn't show any wireless network on ipw2200" [Undecided,Needs info]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/83637
[11:07] <Fujitsu_> pochu: When did that happen? I was using it this morning.
[11:08] <BenC> pochu: Doesn't work, or doesn't work with NetworkManager?
[11:08] <BenC> those are two different things :)
[11:08] <pochu> Fujitsu_: doesn't work
[11:08] <pochu> with a clean install of herd 2, and yesterday daily-live
[11:08] <BenC> pochu: Can you configure it from the command line?
[11:08] <pochu> and some others daily
[11:08] <pochu> BenC: I'm not very skilled with networking... :(
[11:08] <pochu> BenC: interfaces?
[11:09] <BenC> pochu: "ifconfig -a" do you see it in that list?
[11:09] <BenC> if so, then the kernel's most likely not at fault
[11:10] <pochu> BenC: is it eth1? If so, I see it
[11:10] <BenC> pochu: iwconfig eth1
[11:10] <BenC> if that looks sane (e.g doesn't say it isn't a wireless dev) then the kernels fine
[11:10] <BenC> which means it's a network-manager bug
[11:11] <pochu> BenC: when I boot, I sometimes see this message: intel_rng: blabla something can't remember
[11:11] <BenC> pochu: Sure, intel_rng, doesn't exist...no big deal
[11:11] <heno> who is looking after network-manager bugs?
[11:12] <pochu> emilio@kiko:~$ iwconfig eth1 | grep Management
[11:12] <pochu>           Power Management:off
[11:12] <pochu> BenC: ^^ does that means my ipw is off?
[11:12] <pochu> :S
[11:12] <BenC> heno: I suspect it will end up in kernel-team's lap
[11:12] <heno> ok
[11:12] <BenC> pochu: No, it means power-management is off
[11:13] <BenC> heno: At least the backend driver portions (UI is up to someone else)
[11:13] <pochu> BenC: radio off  ESSID:""
[11:14] <ogra> pochu, that means your kernelis fine .... you got a n-m bug
[11:14] <BenC> pochu: radio is always off until it is configured I think
[11:14] <BenC> pochu: if you have a radio kill switch, then that's easy to debug...flip the switch
[11:14] <pochu> BenC: I don't know what radio means in a wireless card :S
[11:14] <pochu> just I saw it's off...
[11:14] <pochu> hehe
[11:15] <pochu> ogra: but I don't have wireless, wether with NM or not
[11:15] <BenC> pochu: You can work around this using the standard networking control panel to configure the device
[11:15] <ogra> pochu, right but its not th ekernels fault 
[11:15] <ogra> its a configuration issue
[11:16] <tepsipakki> geser: now the repo should be fine
[11:16] <tepsipakki> geser: added new source versions of xorg-server and mesa as well
[11:16] <pochu> BenC: I tried it, without success. However I'm gonna try again
[11:17] <BenC> pochu: Try again, and check iwconfig to see what's going on
[11:17] <pochu> but then if everything is fine, wifi-radar should work, right?
[11:19] <pochu> BenC: and another thing (there are no more hehe): when booting, I see a lot of messages similar to this: [some numbers]  PCI: Cannot allocate resource region...
[11:20] <BenC> pochu: Just an annoying message...no real problems with that message
[11:20] <pochu> BenC: ok, thank you. Going to test the wireless :)
[11:21] <pochu> wifi-radar does not show any wireless. Don't know if it should or if it's also "broken"
[11:22] <BenC> pochu: My only concern is if things like iwconfig/ifconfig can configure it...if that works, then it's some else's problem :)
[11:23] <pochu> BenC: I'm trying to configure it with network-admin. should it work? and should dhcp work?
[11:24] <BenC> hard to say...it should work
[11:24] <pochu> ty
[11:26] <st3> BenC> ogra: BTW, I assume madwifi is working for you...is bcm43xx working any better?
[11:26] <st3> please check https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.20/+bug/85404/+viewstatus
[11:26] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 85404 in linux-source-2.6.20 "bcm43xx completely broken in feisty" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  
[11:27] <ogra> st3, what makes you think madwifi is working for me ? i dont have any madwifi using HW
[11:27] <st3> no, i was citing BenC
[11:27] <st3> *quoting
[11:28] <ogra> oh, ah
[11:28] <ogra> well, since i dont have the firmware on fresh installs i couldnt test yet, my work system is behind and running 2.6.20-5-generic still
[11:29] <ogra> but i'm currently upgrading ...
[11:30] <BenC> st3: It was my understanding that bcm43xx dscape was supposed to work better than bcm43xx+softmac
[11:31] <st3> not yet
[11:31] <BenC> mjg59: ping
[11:31] <imbrandon> BenC, ping ( please approve my request to join the PPC Community Dev Team )
[11:31] <st3> it's still highly experimental, but it could even be ok, if you used the latest version
[11:31] <BenC> st3: Are you the upstream maintainer of bcm43xx+softmac?
[11:31] <st3> yes, i'm stefano brivio
[11:31] <st3> (one of the maintainers)
[11:32] <st3> =)
[11:32] <BenC> st3: Then maybe you can help the folks who have been getting oopses from stock bcm43xx in 2.6.20 :)
[11:32] <imbrandon> BenC, that is if you have a moment , heh , btw i dident get a change to whoop you in bowling at the sprint , wait till ubuntu live / uds feisty ;)
[11:32] <st3> BenC, i didn't see any report on the relevant mailing list, however, tell me
[11:32] <BenC> imbrandon: hehe, bring it
[11:32] <st3> *lists
[11:32] <BenC> st3: let's continue this in #ubuntu-kernel
[11:33] <st3> i'm there
[11:33] <imbrandon> BenC, anyhow when you get a moment poke me through on LP please, i'm going afk ( i already hit the join button ) 
[11:33] <imbrandon> l8tr all
[11:33] <BenC> imbrandon: sure thing