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| === dungodung will be sleeping during the 15 Feb 05:00 UTC: IRC Operators | ||
| dungodung | :( | 01:29 |
|---|---|---|
| superuser | :( | 01:31 |
| dungodung | well, I won't miss much... I'm an op on a minor, peripheral channel | 01:32 |
| Hobbsee | @schedule sydney | 01:33 |
| Ubugtu | Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 15 Feb 16:00: IRC Operators | 16 Feb 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 18 Feb 02:00: Xubuntu | 21 Feb 23:00: Edubuntu | 23 Feb 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 Feb 04:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 01:33 |
| === Hobbsee thought that was over by now | ||
| Hobbsee | oh, 4pm.... | 01:34 |
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| beuno | @Buenos Aires | 02:48 |
| beuno | @BuenosAires | 02:49 |
| beuno | now, how did that work.. | 02:49 |
| dungodung|sleep | @schedule Buenos Aires | 02:49 |
| Ubugtu | Schedule for America/Argentina/Buenos_Aires: 15 Feb 02:00: IRC Operators | 15 Feb 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Feb 12:00: Xubuntu | 21 Feb 09:00: Edubuntu | 22 Feb 13:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 14:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 02:49 |
| beuno | thank you very much dungodung|sleep | 02:49 |
| dungodung|sleep | np. sleep now | 02:50 |
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| === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: IRC Operators | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Feb 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 21 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 22 Feb 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 17:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | ||
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| elkbuntu | can i request we wait 5 mins please. i've only just got home and i need to get a drink | 06:01 |
| Hobbsee | elkbuntu: sure. until Seveas actually materializes, we cant do much anyway | 06:02 |
| elkbuntu | this is true | 06:02 |
| mneptok | we could start the dumming and watch fires. | 06:05 |
| mneptok | +r | 06:05 |
| mneptok | well, "duwwing," too. | 06:06 |
| === Hobbsee sets mneptok on fire, to start with | ||
| Madpilot | I see that mneptok is using his Keyboard of Incoherency this evening. That'll make the meeting more interesting. | 06:06 |
| Hobbsee | doesnt he always, though? | 06:07 |
| Madpilot | sometimes he's just pasting song lyrics | 06:07 |
| ajmitch | oh there's a meeting | 06:07 |
| === ajmitch had better go back to lurking | ||
| mneptok | sorry. the "keyboard of incoherency" was actually "keyboard with a penny in it" | 06:10 |
| Madpilot | ajmitch, eventually it will be a meeting. Currently it's just overflow from the den of insanity that is #ubuntu-ops | 06:10 |
| === Hobbsee attacks Madpilot with the Long Pointy Stick of DOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| === Madpilot thanks Hobbsee for proving his point about insanity. | ||
| Hobbsee | hah | 06:11 |
| ajmitch | Madpilot: that's ok, I used to lurk in there as well | 06:11 |
| mneptok | Hobbsee: when are you putting that stick under a CC license? | 06:11 |
| Madpilot | oh, and I'll thank the Academy, too. Apparently it's the done thing. | 06:11 |
| Hobbsee | mneptok: godo question | 06:12 |
| Madpilot | it's LPSoD licensed, isn't it? | 06:12 |
| ajmitch | sigh, licence proliferation | 06:13 |
| mneptok | you were just attacked with a trademarked stick | 06:13 |
| Madpilot | LPSoDL - the Long Pointy Stick of DOOM License | 06:14 |
| mneptok | copyrightintoyourhead | 06:15 |
| Madpilot | we're spamming -meeting, aren't we? | 06:16 |
| elkbuntu | yep | 06:16 |
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| ajmitch | nalioth! | 06:17 |
| nalioth | ajmitch! | 06:17 |
| sid | elkbuntu: Did those poll results ever go public? | 06:17 |
| elkbuntu | sid, not yet. this is not an appropriate place to discuss it either | 06:18 |
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| Jucato | oh? | 06:48 |
| Jucato | oops sorry | 06:48 |
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| === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Feb 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 21 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 22 Feb 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 17:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 17:00 UTC: LoCo Team | ||
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| dungodung | so it wasn't a big meeting, I see | 11:20 |
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| tsmithe | boredandblogging, hi. what's your blog address, then? | 03:16 |
| === tsmithe is testing his new blog crawler | ||
| boredandblogging | http://boredandblogging.com | 03:16 |
| boredandblogging | nothing worthwhile though, lol | 03:16 |
| === tsmithe doesn't care | ||
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| mdz | good evening | 09:46 |
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| ajmitch | hi mdz | 09:46 |
| ajmitch | devel team meeting, is it? | 09:47 |
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| pochu | @now | 09:48 |
| Ubugtu | Current time in Etc/UTC: February 15 2007, 20:48:40 - Next meeting: Ubuntu Development Team in 11 minutes | 09:48 |
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| === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Feb 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 21 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 22 Feb 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 17:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 17:00 UTC: LoCo Team | ||
| mdz | ajmitch: yes | 09:51 |
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| mdz | roll call | 09:52 |
| bdmurray | present | 09:53 |
| _kyle | batman! er. nope, just me. | 09:53 |
| Riddell | hola | 09:53 |
| rtg | here | 09:53 |
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| _kyle | (connected xchat since my ssh is all laggy) | 09:53 |
| kwwii | howdy all | 09:53 |
| mvo__ | hello | 09:55 |
| mdz | cjwatson,heno,doko,BenC,pkl,asac,tkamppeter,Keybuk,pitti,fabbione,tfheen,iwj,ogra: ping | 09:55 |
| doko | pong | 09:55 |
| heno | pong | 09:55 |
| === ogra waves | ||
| Keybuk | _o/ | 09:56 |
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| asac | hi | 09:56 |
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| pitti | hello | 09:56 |
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| cjwatson | here, just making coffee | 09:57 |
| mdz | BenC: is pkl around? | 09:58 |
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| BenC | mdz: checking | 09:59 |
| tfheen | pong | 09:59 |
| BenC | cjwatson: coffee, sounds good | 09:59 |
| mdz | cjwatson: expecting till? | 09:59 |
| mdz | fabbione: ping | 09:59 |
| BenC | he's coming | 10:00 |
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| mdz | ok, moving along | 10:00 |
| mdz | rtg: you started last week, but this is your first weekly meeting. welcome! | 10:01 |
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| asac | rtg: hi! | 10:01 |
| rtg | Thanks. | 10:01 |
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| Riddell | hi rtg | 10:01 |
| fabbione | pong | 10:01 |
| pitti | hello rtg! | 10:01 |
| fabbione | sorry i am late | 10:01 |
| mdz | rtg is Tim Gardner, who I believe remains the newest addition to the kernel team | 10:01 |
| ogra | hey rtg | 10:02 |
| mvo | hello! | 10:02 |
| mdz | agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20070215 | 10:02 |
| mdz | any last-minute additions? | 10:02 |
| cjwatson | mdz: Till didn't say he wasn't coming | 10:02 |
| mdz | ok, moving right along | 10:03 |
| mdz | pitti: you're up | 10:03 |
| pitti | # | 10:03 |
| pitti | Do we want to use XSBC-Original-Maintainer (which works, modulo the small bug fix that is already prepared), or teach dpkg about a proper 'Original-Maintainer:' field? | 10:03 |
| mdz | there was some discussion about this by mail | 10:03 |
| pitti | so, the point is, XSBC- looks ugly, but works | 10:03 |
| iwj | We should use XSBC- for at least the next while, as I say. | 10:04 |
| pitti | the .debs, .dsc etc. have Original-Maintainer, so for users it's fine | 10:04 |
| tfheen | adding the field is trivial, but I don't know if Debian will take it. | 10:04 |
| iwj | Well, let's offer them the patch and if and when they take it and it's widely deployed we can switch to it. | 10:04 |
| pitti | so the effect won't change if we later teach dpkg about the new field | 10:04 |
| tfheen | iwj: why? If we actually think it's a good idea, we should just go with O-M, IMO. | 10:04 |
| iwj | There's no harm of XSBC- in the meantime except that it's slightly ugly. | 10:04 |
| iwj | tfheen: Because people often run source-processing tools not on the distrorelease. | 10:04 |
| === pitti agrees to iwj here, especially if we have tool support for making these changes | ||
| iwj | ... that they are intended for. | 10:05 |
| iwj | I said all this by email ... | 10:05 |
| cjwatson | where was this e-mail conversation? | 10:05 |
| tfheen | distro-team@, iirc | 10:05 |
| pitti | replies to my activity report | 10:05 |
| cjwatson | ah, yes | 10:05 |
| iwj | Should it have been in ubuntu-devel ? | 10:05 |
| cjwatson | OTOH, failing to use XSBC- only has the consequence of an ugly error message, not build failures, IIRC | 10:06 |
| tfheen | cjwatson: correct. | 10:06 |
| mdz | iwj: yes | 10:06 |
| iwj | mdz: OK | 10:06 |
| pitti | cjwatson: and that the field doesn't actually appear in the debs/dsc? | 10:06 |
| tfheen | iwj: then I say we can just add it to our dpkg and those who don't use our dpkg can use XSBC-. | 10:06 |
| cjwatson | pitti: sure, but whatever | 10:06 |
| iwj | cjwatson: Err, using O-M when the tool doesn't support it means the field gets lost. | 10:06 |
| pitti | cjwatson: but that'd miss the point? | 10:06 |
| cjwatson | iwj: does that actually matter? | 10:06 |
| cjwatson | all we've promised to do is have it in our archive | 10:06 |
| iwj | tfheen: But the question is _what do we put in our packages_, which other people besides us touch too. | 10:06 |
| tfheen | pitti: the debs will be fine as they're built on the autobuilder. | 10:06 |
| mdz | there's no reason to use O-M in Debian | 10:07 |
| pitti | right, just .dsc | 10:07 |
| cjwatson | it makes no technical difference to the package | 10:07 |
| iwj | cjwatson: All universe maintainers are now to be forbidden from running dpkg-foobarpackage other than on feisty ? | 10:07 |
| cjwatson | oh, that's true, it would make a difference to the .dsc | 10:07 |
| cjwatson | in that case I agree with Ian | 10:07 |
| mdz | iwj: do you develop on Feisty? | 10:07 |
| iwj | mdz: Yes, but I run dpkg-signchanges on sarge. | 10:07 |
| tfheen | signchanges is irrelevant; -gencontrol is the interesting one. | 10:08 |
| iwj | tfheen: Yes, but this is turning into a complex set of rules that everyone has to get right. | 10:08 |
| cjwatson | I have in the past built Ubuntu source packages on Debian (quite regularly) and I see no reason why we should break that | 10:08 |
| iwj | XSBC- just works and we should use it. | 10:08 |
| tfheen | except it doesn't work correctly due to a bug? | 10:08 |
| iwj | What cjwatson said. Sometimes I don't have a feisty install to hand. | 10:08 |
| pitti | tfheen: I have fixed that in my pending upload | 10:09 |
| iwj | tfheen: The bug we can get fixed in etch even probably. | 10:09 |
| pitti | well, cjwatson did the fix | 10:09 |
| tfheen | pitti: oh sure, but the "you can't build packages on !feisty" argument applies until it actually is in other stable releases. | 10:09 |
| pitti | tfheen: but the bug is irrelevant mostly, it only affects propagation to .debs, not to .dsc | 10:09 |
| tfheen | "can't" here meaning "will not have a 100% compliant .dsc", nothing will actually break. | 10:10 |
| pitti | tfheen: irrelevant for building source packages, that is | 10:10 |
| iwj | And why oh why oh why are we having this argument by IRC ?? IRC is a terrible medium for arguments. | 10:10 |
| tfheen | pitti: oh, ok. | 10:10 |
| === pitti actually prefers discussing stuff synchronously | ||
| === ogra too | ||
| === tfheen prefers IRC over email any day. | ||
| cjwatson | I'm not hearing serious objections to XSBC- | 10:10 |
| pitti | I'm still in favour of eventually supporting O-M, but that's something for later | 10:11 |
| cjwatson | so I think we should do that and move on to the next of the several items on the agenda | 10:11 |
| === jbailey [n=jbailey@modemcable178.77-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| cjwatson | pitti: sure | 10:11 |
| iwj | pitti: Yes. | 10:11 |
| cjwatson | * Can we find a sane method that dch can use to tell apart main from universe packages? If so, we could add an automatic change of [Original-] Maintainer:. | 10:11 |
| pitti | great | 10:11 |
| cjwatson | mdz addressed that on distro-team@ | 10:11 |
| iwj | mdz was right. | 10:11 |
| pitti | ok, so we set it to $DEBEMAIL? | 10:12 |
| pitti | and warn if it's not m/ubuntu/? | 10:12 |
| cjwatson | no, leave it alone | 10:12 |
| Riddell | pitti: or kubuntu or edubuntu... | 10:12 |
| cjwatson | often you want it to be the relevant team mailing list instead | 10:13 |
| pitti | cjwatson: my q is about doing something if there's no O-M | 10:13 |
| pitti | I'm fine with fixing it manually, it's just a bit cumbersome | 10:13 |
| pitti | and, as doko noticed, pro/demotions will break the default ML values | 10:13 |
| cjwatson | I don't think we should mess with debian/control (or even Maintainer in the .dsc) automatically. It's far too fragile. | 10:14 |
| cjwatson | doko's point is valid but later on the agenda :-) | 10:14 |
| doko | heh | 10:14 |
| pitti | it's just closely coupled | 10:14 |
| pitti | anyway, if noone is in favor of automatic changing, lets go on | 10:14 |
| cjwatson | For main packages, should we rather use ubuntu-devel-discuss@ instead of ubuntu-devel@? If so, we need to change and sign off the spec. | 10:15 |
| cjwatson | addressed on distro-team@ (yes) | 10:15 |
| cjwatson | Do we need to get all packages fixed in Feisty? IOW, do we need mass-uploads or can we just slowly migrate the fields over time? | 10:15 |
| pitti | that's done | 10:15 |
| cjwatson | also addressed on distro-team@ | 10:15 |
| cjwatson | handling of addresses where source/binary are in different pockets; CORE address for packages in universe. | 10:15 |
| pitti | not really | 10:15 |
| Keybuk | some packages built in feisty do not have equivalents in Debian | 10:15 |
| cjwatson | not really to which? | 10:15 |
| pitti | I'd really like to discuss the schedule here | 10:15 |
| Keybuk | so automatic modification would be wrong in that case | 10:15 |
| iwj | If we do nothing special, all the packages will be updated by feisty+1, right ? | 10:15 |
| pitti | cjwatson: slow/quick migration | 10:15 |
| pitti | iwj: we need to modify debian/control, that won't happen automagically | 10:16 |
| === Ku-vaughany [n=vaughany@82.152.96.60] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| pitti | so, mdz and I had the compromise of fixing all 350-some main .debs for feisty | 10:16 |
| cjwatson | I'm with mdz on this; we are way behind on our commitment and we need to get it done | 10:16 |
| iwj | All of the .debs will be updated and not all of the .dscs, then ? | 10:16 |
| pitti | and do the source-only and universe ones with the feisty+1 merge | 10:17 |
| tfheen | iwj: not magically, no. Just through churn. | 10:17 |
| pitti | I think that's fair | 10:17 |
| pitti | we have 750 main and > 1000 universe sources which need to be modified, and rebuilt by beta otherwise | 10:17 |
| pitti | and if we get new X.org packages anyway, a good chunk of the 350 .debs will already be sorted out | 10:18 |
| mdz | the source maintainer is much less visible, and unlikely to be noticed by users reporting problems with the package | 10:18 |
| pitti | (explanation: fixing the .debs is a matter of pure rebuild) | 10:18 |
| mdz | which is the source of the complaint | 10:18 |
| pitti | so we'd get the dpkg-source check into feisty now, so that we do not continue to upload sources with wrong maintainers | 10:18 |
| mdz | so fixing the remaining .debs is a solid incremental step toward finishing the job | 10:19 |
| mdz | as is fixing dpkg-source | 10:19 |
| pitti | ok, if we don't have further comments, I'll care for the rebuilds and take doko's gcc changes into account | 10:20 |
| cjwatson | ok | 10:21 |
| cjwatson | * handling of addresses where source/binary are in different pockets; CORE address for packages in universe. | 10:21 |
| pitti | doko: ^ you need some rebuilds? | 10:21 |
| Riddell | win 12 | 10:21 |
| pitti | I think for this only source packages matter | 10:21 |
| Riddell | erk | 10:21 |
| cjwatson | source/binary is irrelevant, as discussed on the list | 10:21 |
| doko | pitti: yes, I'll send you the list; please start after GCC-4.1.2 is in the archive | 10:21 |
| pitti | doko: ETA? | 10:21 |
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| doko | after the freeze ends. tfheen ? | 10:22 |
| pitti | doko: ah, that's fine | 10:22 |
| cjwatson | * Promotion/demotion invalidates the address. | 10:22 |
| mdz | regarding promotion/demotion, I'm personally not fussed | 10:22 |
| === tkamppeter [n=till@bl7-104-12.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| cjwatson | I suggest that somebody write a tool which points out the inconsistencies, and we can garden it from time to time | 10:22 |
| mdz | this is much more about masking the original address than providing the best contact | 10:23 |
| cjwatson | much like the other such tools we already have | 10:23 |
| pitti | if people set it manually anyway, then we hopefully will get more specialized teams or individual maintainers anyway | 10:23 |
| cjwatson | but I agree it is not urgent | 10:23 |
| tfheen | doko: freeze ends tonight; It seems the current set of ISOs is good, so I'll release them tonight and thaw the archive, then send out the announcement tomorrow morning. | 10:23 |
| mdz | they'll be fixed when rebuilt | 10:23 |
| pitti | we actually need to rebuild such packages anyway for translation changes | 10:23 |
| mdz | ok then, it's only an issue for the source, so even less urgent to change things | 10:23 |
| doko | tfheen: just ping me when I can upload (if it's before bedtime) | 10:23 |
| mdz | so we're all clear on debian-maintainer-field now? | 10:24 |
| pitti | yes, sorry for the abundance of questions | 10:24 |
| pitti | but this affects so many packages that we should get it right at the first shot | 10:24 |
| mdz | agreed, thanks | 10:25 |
| mdz | pitti: I answered you about apport-retrace on the list; I think it's very useful, but we're behind on a few higher-priority items where you might be able to help out if you have spare cycles | 10:25 |
| pitti | right, got that | 10:25 |
| mdz | pitti: did you already talk with Scott about your tasks? | 10:25 |
| pitti | spare cycles go into bug fixing, but I'm happy to help out with specs where appropriate | 10:25 |
| pitti | mdz: not yet, I was away in the evening, sorry | 10:26 |
| cjwatson | * ISO release testing (Henrik Omma): I think we should decide before Beta whether we are going to actually use the Malone-based tracker. Are people comfortable with it or is the wiki better after all? Simon, Tollef: are you two leading beta release/testing together or do I have a key part in this (beyond the community-based contribution)? | 10:26 |
| Riddell | it works well enough from my point of view | 10:27 |
| heno | It seems to have worked fairly well today | 10:27 |
| pitti | personally I found the wiki much better for getting an overview of the overall state, but bugs parallelize better | 10:27 |
| ogra | ++ | 10:27 |
| cjwatson | heno: on the latter item, I'd like you to lead the testing side of this, since you've been making good progress with it so far | 10:27 |
| heno | that is true | 10:27 |
| tfheen | I'm much happier this time than the previous time. | 10:27 |
| cjwatson | heno: let's talk about that on the phone tomorrow? | 10:27 |
| cjwatson | tfheen: are bug comments from individual testers getting through to you effectively? | 10:28 |
| heno | cjwatson: ok, s long as it's clear that I'm doing it | 10:28 |
| mdz | pitti: can you think of a way to improve the overview using the bugs? | 10:28 |
| heno | cjwatson: sure | 10:28 |
| tfheen | cjwatson: we haven't really had many individual testers, but yes, I have subscribed to the product. | 10:28 |
| cjwatson | heno: thanks, I appreciate it | 10:28 |
| pitti | mdz: we could use bughelper to create a report | 10:28 |
| === zorglu_ [n=zorglub@86.73.86.169] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Konversation] | ||
| mdz | heno described a scheme using the status field to provide a sort of overview, though of course it requires someone to maintain the state | 10:28 |
| ogra | mdz, a generated table overview ? | 10:28 |
| heno | people who post a result can update the state | 10:29 |
| ogra | that would need to parse the bugtexts though | 10:29 |
| heno | wejust need good etting of testers | 10:29 |
| cjwatson | heno: I don't think that will happen in practice | 10:29 |
| tfheen | pitti: I need to chat a bit with dholbach about bughelper, I guess; I really want to generate reports from malone and can't today. | 10:29 |
| pitti | a mere matrix with the current bug states would already be helpful, I figure | 10:29 |
| heno | to make sure they are clued in and committed | 10:29 |
| tfheen | not just for ISO testing, but also for other release metics. | 10:29 |
| cjwatson | and it would be best if the amount of education of testers required is as small as possible | 10:29 |
| mdz | I don't see how bughelper helps, can you explain? | 10:30 |
| heno | I envision just a small group of 'trusted' community testers this cycle | 10:30 |
| heno | mdz: it can scrape useful state info from the bug pages | 10:31 |
| cjwatson | I'm worried that we'll swamp a small group; it's a lot of work even for full-time staff | 10:31 |
| pitti | mdz: I meant, using the bughelper library to find the bugs and get their states, and then cobbling together some HTML report | 10:31 |
| heno | and present them in an html table | 10:31 |
| pitti | heno: :) | 10:31 |
| tfheen | cjwatson: yes, it should be possible to just jump in and test a single ISO without having to go through a big process to do so. | 10:32 |
| mdz | what would that tell you which wouldn't be visible from the table on the iso tracker bug page? | 10:32 |
| heno | so we get a non-editable 'wiki' page powered by the malone content | 10:32 |
| ogra | the problem is that finer grained info like the different install variants is only in the bugtexts | 10:32 |
| pitti | mdz: we could count number of testers, parse out the ok/fail comments, parse out bug numbers to make them clickable, etc. | 10:32 |
| tfheen | mdz: the malone bug page is going to be unwieldy when we have the full test cases there, as we will for beta, RC and release. | 10:32 |
| heno | ogra: no we will do separate bugs for those in later milestones | 10:33 |
| ogra | ah, cool | 10:33 |
| mdz | pitti: oh, I see, using the format conventions described in the docs | 10:33 |
| mdz | it looked like some people were using those at least | 10:33 |
| heno | so there will be very many tracker bugs | 10:33 |
| heno | so an overview html page is a must really | 10:33 |
| mdz | tfheen: no more unwieldy than the wiki page, and probably less | 10:33 |
| heno | I think it would be worse tha the wiki | 10:34 |
| heno | unless you filter by tags | 10:34 |
| pitti | . o O { using an apport GUI to create a report with parseable standard syntax, yummy } | 10:34 |
| cjwatson | perhaps we can brainstorm mad ideas by mail? :-) | 10:34 |
| heno | but the bughelper hack should be easy | 10:34 |
| heno | yep | 10:34 |
| heno | I'll prepare something | 10:35 |
| tfheen | but as I said, I'd really like to be able to pull statistics out of malone since I can't today and I'd love to for a release status page. | 10:35 |
| heno | (email with ideas) | 10:35 |
| cjwatson | ACTION: heno, tfheen, pitti etc. to discuss and prepare status overview page for ISO tests | 10:35 |
| heno | tfheen: that's doable | 10:35 |
| heno | ok, done :) | 10:35 |
| mdz | [UbuntuSpec] increase-hwdb-participation (Sebastien Bacher): do we need a menu item for hwdb participation? that's something that is likely to be launched once only and will clutter the menu then | 10:36 |
| mdz | the point here is that we want it to be obvious how to contribute to the database | 10:36 |
| seb128 | and we want to keep the menus or shell not too long if possible | 10:36 |
| pitti | heads-up: right now we have an one-time notification pointing people to the menu item | 10:36 |
| mdz | and we do want people to contribute again if their hardware changes | 10:36 |
| seb128 | because many items make them hard to use | 10:36 |
| ogra | we discussed that the other day in -devel ... the most proper solution (having a button in the notofocation) braks the notofocation policy | 10:36 |
| pitti | we can easily point people somewhere else | 10:36 |
| ogra | meh ... | 10:37 |
| seb128 | well, there is a button to do that to hal-device-manager | 10:37 |
| === ogra goes for a typing course | ||
| kwwii | why not put it in System-->Administration ? | 10:37 |
| mdz | seb128: no one knows that is there | 10:37 |
| pitti | no, no button in the notification, that'd be wrong | 10:37 |
| seb128 | we can point people to h-d-m | 10:37 |
| ogra | right | 10:37 |
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| seb128 | mdz: we display a notification bubble if I understood that correctly | 10:37 |
| ogra | without the control center i agree ... | 10:37 |
| seb128 | mdz: we could point people to hal-device-manager | 10:37 |
| tfheen | seb128: yes, we do that today already. | 10:37 |
| mvo | we already have a lot of icons in the control-center, I don't think it will get worse | 10:37 |
| ogra | yep we do | 10:37 |
| heno | we could mention it on the default firefox homepage | 10:37 |
| seb128 | mvo: we try to reduce the list | 10:38 |
| heno | (if people look at that) | 10:38 |
| === mvo is not sure if people actually read that ff page | ||
| seb128 | mvo: we should not start accepting random icons because the list is already long, that's not a reason to make it longer | 10:38 |
| pitti | another option is to just open hwdb-client right away on first login | 10:39 |
| seb128 | what would be wrong with pointing people to h-d-m? | 10:39 |
| cjwatson | pitti: ugh | 10:39 |
| pitti | but I understand that contradicts our 'no wizards' policy | 10:39 |
| ogra | i'm not opposing to point to h-d-m ... if users dont have to wait for control-center and have to search there | 10:39 |
| mvo | I think the new g-c-c concept does not work very well, but that is a different discussion | 10:39 |
| mdz | heno: that's not a bad idea | 10:39 |
| pitti | cjwatson: ugh indeed :/ | 10:39 |
| seb128 | grrraa | 10:39 |
| heno | I agree with seb128 on this, and icon for a one-time item is a bit much | 10:39 |
| seb128 | please stop the constant ranting on the shell | 10:39 |
| seb128 | I already said we will switch back to menu | 10:39 |
| tfheen | seb128: I think the new shell is much better. | 10:39 |
| mdz | to return to the issue at hand... | 10:39 |
| heno | we could make it quite prominent on the FF page | 10:39 |
| seb128 | (that's especially for ogra and mvo who keep telling that every day) | 10:39 |
| === mvo hugs seb128 | ||
| pitti | heno: you just cannot open programs with HTML links | 10:40 |
| ogra | right ..., thats why i'm not opposed to drop the menu item completely | 10:40 |
| mdz | we're concerned with the use case "I want to submit my system profile to the Ubuntu hardware database" | 10:40 |
| ogra | seb128, ^^^ | 10:40 |
| pitti | ogra: people have to find it again if HW changes | 10:40 |
| seb128 | tfheen: it still has some bugs and could be faster, it's likely to be default upstream next cycle | 10:40 |
| heno | pitti: right but you can show a screenshot with colourful arrows :) | 10:40 |
| ogra | pitti, but then they have seen it once at least | 10:40 |
| === pitti thinks that in fact most of the things in c-c will only be used once, so *shrug* | ||
| seb128 | mdz: well, that mean the menu item will be used like once a year (you don't change config every week usually) | 10:41 |
| seb128 | mdz: and it'll be in the way the rest of the time | 10:41 |
| heno | pitti: actually you can, with a custom mime-type | 10:41 |
| mdz | seb128: agreed, it's rarely used | 10:41 |
| pitti | seb128: neither do users change their theme or keyboard layout | 10:41 |
| seb128 | pitti: those are configuration tools | 10:41 |
| pitti | heno: urgh :) | 10:41 |
| seb128 | pitti: and people might play with theme more often than you think | 10:42 |
| heno | filename.launch-hwdb :) | 10:42 |
| pitti | seb128: sure | 10:42 |
| seb128 | but that's not the point | 10:42 |
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| mdz | seb128: the data we collect from it is very important, and if users don't see it, they don't participate. I agree with your concerns about the menu, but how else can we present it where users will discover it? | 10:42 |
| seb128 | I'm just trying to keep the list of menu or shell items not too long | 10:42 |
| pitti | another idea: | 10:42 |
| seb128 | mdz: we have a notify bubble, pointing them to hwdb menu item or hal-device-manager is about the same no? | 10:43 |
| pitti | how'bout adding it to update-notifier? people would get a tray icon and if they click on it, it'd open h-c, and then the icon would disappear | 10:43 |
| mvo | we could do it as a post-install note | 10:43 |
| seb128 | mdz: h-d-m is also to the menu and it has a button to run hwdb-client | 10:43 |
| heno | can we make it very prominent during testing and much less at release time? | 10:43 |
| mvo | u-n has support for this already | 10:43 |
| mvo | it can even include scripts | 10:43 |
| ogra | i really think it doesnt needed an extra menu entry ... and if i remember correctly that was the initial polcy when mdz assigned the project to me ... | 10:43 |
| tfheen | pitti: and then readd the icon if the hardware changes? | 10:43 |
| pitti | tfheen: that's harder | 10:43 |
| ogra | i had a bunch of whishlist bugs that made it appear | 10:44 |
| heno | the people who run feisty are the most likely to participate anyway | 10:44 |
| seb128 | pitti: well, that's what I said before, use a notification area icon, that would work too | 10:44 |
| tfheen | pitti: not really; store a md5sum of the lspci output or something somewhere and check that on login. | 10:44 |
| pitti | tfheen: but it would bring people to it once, and then we can hide it behind h-d-m and explain where it is in the icon notificatino | 10:44 |
| mdz | ogra: it originally had a menu entry; it was removed during one of the menu cleanups | 10:44 |
| pitti | tfheen: and usb, and there it gets trickier | 10:44 |
| mdz | pitti: isn't that what the increase-hwdb-participation spec was meant to be? | 10:45 |
| ogra | mdz, the first hoary version only had the h-d-m button ... in breezy i added the menu entry mainly because kubuntu complained ... | 10:45 |
| mdz | pitti: notify the user once? | 10:45 |
| pitti | mdz: it talks about a notification, not a tray applet | 10:45 |
| heno | When we get a slideshow in ubiquity we can show it there | 10:45 |
| mvo | pitti: we have the post-install notifications in u-n, we could use those | 10:45 |
| pitti | mdz: from a notification we cannot launch programs, but from a tray icon we can | 10:45 |
| mvo | they are there and ready (and support scripts) | 10:45 |
| pitti | well, we can launch programs from notifications, but it is *very* ugly usability-wise | 10:46 |
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| cjwatson | this item is dragging on somewhat | 10:46 |
| mvo | the u-n post-install hooks have a dialog that contains a button. nice text + button | 10:46 |
| seb128 | let's use that then | 10:46 |
| pitti | mvo: sounds good | 10:46 |
| tfheen | a problem with regular notifications is they disappear, so if you don't pay attention, they go away and you can't get them back | 10:46 |
| tfheen | so interacting with notifications is bad. | 10:46 |
| mdz | so long as the user is inivted to participate when they install, I'm happy | 10:46 |
| mdz | either launching the client directly or providing simple instructions | 10:47 |
| mvo | pitti: lets check this out tomorrow together, ok? | 10:47 |
| pitti | mvo: yes | 10:47 |
| mdz | opening device manager and finding the button is not simple enough, though | 10:47 |
| mdz | ACTION: mvo/pitti to review options for hwdb notifications | 10:47 |
| mdz | moving on | 10:47 |
| pitti | mdz: the install note could explain where it is | 10:47 |
| mdz | Maintenance "costs" of python debug packages (Matthias Klose) | 10:47 |
| pitti | (this was about maintaining a large delta from Debian for the -dbg packages, since Debian is frozen ATM, and hasn't decided yet whether to adopt it) | 10:48 |
| pitti | and the debian/rules code for that is nontrivial | 10:49 |
| pitti | doko: ping ^ | 10:49 |
| doko | yes, the thing is, if we want/can afford it. it's a diff for every package we want to build extensions | 10:50 |
| doko | in debug mode. | 10:50 |
| cjwatson | I thought we had discussed this already | 10:50 |
| mdz | I'm afraid I don't have the context | 10:50 |
| cjwatson | how many packages are involved? | 10:50 |
| doko | about 50 in main | 10:50 |
| cjwatson | in fact I'm sure I spoke with you about this before and said yes | 10:50 |
| mdz | oh, this is for debug packages for extension modules? | 10:50 |
| cjwatson | 50? yes | 10:50 |
| doko | ok | 10:50 |
| mdz | why doesn't the autobuild infrastructure handle that? | 10:50 |
| cjwatson | mdz: needs two build passes | 10:50 |
| mdz | oh, right | 10:50 |
| doko | debug mode needs a separate compilation | 10:50 |
| mdz | ok, sounds like this has been resolved anyawy | 10:51 |
| mdz | anyway | 10:51 |
| mdz | Document bug escalation to release team (Tollef Fog Heen): Started, but I want to agree with Simon about it before writing it down on the wiki. | 10:51 |
| mdz | this sounds like an action, not an agenda item | 10:51 |
| doko | ok, was just brought up today on #u-d | 10:51 |
| mdz | anything to discuss? | 10:51 |
| mdz | tfheen: ? | 10:51 |
| tfheen | mdz: no, I'm not sure why it ended up on the agenda. | 10:51 |
| cjwatson | tfheen: write it down first, then discuss it. :-) | 10:51 |
| mdz | ok, moving on | 10:51 |
| tfheen | I should have taken it off; sorry. | 10:51 |
| cjwatson | scott's/my fault for it ending up there. | 10:51 |
| mdz | iwj/asac/pitti: firefox ready to go? | 10:51 |
| asac | waiting for unfreeze | 10:52 |
| iwj | I spoke to asac in quite a bit of detail. | 10:52 |
| Keybuk | tfheen: you listed it under "Agenda Items" :p | 10:52 |
| asac | i will go one more time and polish changelog but then pitti will sponsor upload :) | 10:52 |
| tfheen | Keybuk: I must have been asleep; sorry. | 10:52 |
| cjwatson | asac: (you don't need to wait for the freeze to end in order to have an upload made) | 10:52 |
| mdz | asac: note that it can be uploaded during the freeze, and will just wait in the queue | 10:52 |
| mdz | in fact that's preferred | 10:53 |
| pitti | asac: will do after the meeting | 10:53 |
| asac | hmmm ... thanks ... didn't know that ... misunderstood pitti then :) | 10:53 |
| cjwatson | the queue in question is visible at http://people.ubuntu.com/~tfheen/unapproved-queue/feisty/ | 10:53 |
| mdz | ACTION: upload firefox (pitti, asac) | 10:53 |
| tfheen | Keybuk: actually, it was under "action items", not "agenda". :-P | 10:53 |
| mdz | discuss adept-notifier integration of apport (pitti/Riddell) | 10:53 |
| pitti | so, we did that, and Riddel meant, that it should be fairly straightforward to port the update-notifier code to adept-notifier | 10:54 |
| mdz | has that happened? | 10:54 |
| Riddell | nope | 10:54 |
| pitti | and we definitively want to have it done | 10:54 |
| Riddell | it's on my todo for next week | 10:54 |
| pitti | mdz: the discussion, yes, not the porting | 10:54 |
| mdz | Riddell: I meant the discussion | 10:54 |
| Riddell | oh, yes, we discussed | 10:54 |
| mdz | ok | 10:54 |
| Keybuk | tfheen: sorry, then it was me that was asleep :p | 10:55 |
| Riddell | and apport is on the herd 4 CDs | 10:55 |
| mdz | iwj to write up summary of experiences debugging udev | 10:55 |
| iwj | udev> I haven't made a proper writeup but I have a few replies to bug reports which document some of the udev debugging procedures and which would make a reasonable source text. | 10:55 |
| mdz | Keybuk: ^^ I thought that was your todo? | 10:55 |
| Keybuk | mdz: I asked iwj to summarise his thoughts as well | 10:55 |
| iwj | He palmed it off on me, since I, err, volunteered. | 10:55 |
| mdz | ah, ok | 10:55 |
| Keybuk | more as a "how can we improve this?" rather than "what to do" | 10:55 |
| Keybuk | the "what to do" is still mine | 10:55 |
| mdz | and we already reviewed the bug escalation item | 10:56 |
| mdz | tfheen: release readiness? | 10:56 |
| Riddell | I'm good except for powerpc CDs | 10:56 |
| Riddell | but I believe that's the case for ubuntu and edubuntu too | 10:57 |
| ogra | me too except one ppc kernel bug | 10:57 |
| mdz | oh, speaking of powerpc | 10:57 |
| mdz | those are no longer release blockers ;-) | 10:57 |
| Riddell | so we don't care :) | 10:57 |
| tfheen | mdz: I'm putting together a list of indicators on how ready we are (bug trends, oversizedness, etc) which I am going to put into some tool and put that on a web page somewhere. | 10:57 |
| Keybuk | <mdz> with all due respect, ... | 10:57 |
| tfheen | I don't have any numbers to give you, but the current state is looking good. | 10:57 |
| tfheen | herd 4 is slightly delayed, but this is due to external factors, not bugs popping up in the distro. | 10:58 |
| Keybuk | the bit where they forgot to turn Soyuz back on? | 10:58 |
| tfheen | slightly as in I am doing the release now and not 12 hours ago. | 10:58 |
| Keybuk | or something else? | 10:58 |
| tfheen | Keybuk: yes, that bit in particular. | 10:58 |
| mdz | what's needed in terms of infrastructure changes for the powerpc transition? | 10:58 |
| mdz | cdimage bits? | 10:58 |
| cjwatson | we're going to start considering powerpc as part of ports, yes? | 10:59 |
| tfheen | I'm not sure; Colin knows that bit of cdimage much better than I since he set it up. | 10:59 |
| fabbione | moving ppc to ports as of debs is not going to be easy | 10:59 |
| cjwatson | also actually moving it to ports.ubuntu.com, which will be Hard | 10:59 |
| fabbione | cjwatson: probably impossible any time soon | 10:59 |
| cjwatson | because that requires per-release mirroring | 10:59 |
| mdz | cjwatson: yes | 10:59 |
| cjwatson | fabbione: it's not impossible, it's just work | 10:59 |
| mdz | I don't see any hurry with the .debs | 11:00 |
| fabbione | cjwatson: it's difficult for how it works now | 11:00 |
| cjwatson | fabbione: "impossible" means "cannot be done even if work goes into it". Don't exaggerate. | 11:00 |
| mdz | but we should move it out of the standard cdimage set | 11:00 |
| cjwatson | that's fairly easy | 11:00 |
| fabbione | cjwatson: the split at the moment is done with 2 rsync set of filters and not via dists/.. so it's difficult at the moment | 11:00 |
| cjwatson | yes, i.e. "work" | 11:01 |
| cjwatson | ACTION: cjwatson to move powerpc out of standard cdimage set | 11:01 |
| cjwatson | (ten minutes) | 11:01 |
| tfheen | cjwatson: If possible, I'd like to do it together with you. | 11:01 |
| cjwatson | sure | 11:02 |
| cjwatson | Keybuk: ^-- add tfheen to that | 11:02 |
| tfheen | I know the basic bits of cdimage, but knowing it better is good. | 11:02 |
| cjwatson | (assuming you're collecting items) | 11:02 |
| cjwatson | * Other business | 11:02 |
| Keybuk | cjwatson: yup | 11:02 |
| mdz | anything else outstanding? | 11:02 |
| BenC | big pat on the back to everyone | 11:03 |
| mdz | ok, thanks everyone and good night | 11:03 |
| seb128 | thank you mdz | 11:03 |
| mdz | onward and upward | 11:03 |
| pitti | thanks, fellows | 11:03 |
| asac | thanks ... good night! | 11:03 |
| mvo | good night! | 11:03 |
| ogra | thanks | 11:03 |
| BenC | thanks everyone! | 11:03 |
| seb128 | 'night | 11:03 |
| cjwatson | next time let's have less discussion in the meeting. :-) | 11:03 |
| fabbione | night everyone | 11:03 |
| pkl_ | good night | 11:04 |
| doko | good night | 11:04 |
| kwwii | night all...that was, erm, fun | 11:04 |
| bdmurray | night all | 11:04 |
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