=== j_ack [n=rudi@p508DA98A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === cbx33 [n=pete@ubuntu/member/cbx33] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === stelis [n=se@82-71-4-26.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === ogra [n=ogra@ubuntu/member/ogra] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dungodung [n=felix@wikipedia/dungodung] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === freeflying [i=flyingfr@gobstopper.dreamhost.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dungodung will be sleeping during the 15 Feb 05:00 UTC: IRC Operators [01:29] :( [01:31] :( [01:32] well, I won't miss much... I'm an op on a minor, peripheral channel [01:33] @schedule sydney [01:33] Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 15 Feb 16:00: IRC Operators | 16 Feb 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 18 Feb 02:00: Xubuntu | 21 Feb 23:00: Edubuntu | 23 Feb 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 Feb 04:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor === Hobbsee thought that was over by now [01:34] oh, 4pm.... === chezz99 [n=root@125.96.99.20] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lotusleaf [n=lotuslea@kernel-panic/member/carne.asada.burrito] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === BuffaloSoldier [n=integral@ubuntu/member/BuffaloSoldier] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === fernando [n=fernando@unaffiliated/musb] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dungodung is now known as dungodung|sleep === beuno [n=martin@201-213-5-148.net.prima.net.ar] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:48] @Buenos Aires [02:49] @BuenosAires [02:49] now, how did that work.. [02:49] @schedule Buenos Aires [02:49] Schedule for America/Argentina/Buenos_Aires: 15 Feb 02:00: IRC Operators | 15 Feb 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Feb 12:00: Xubuntu | 21 Feb 09:00: Edubuntu | 22 Feb 13:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 14:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor [02:49] thank you very much dungodung|sleep [02:50] np. sleep now === chezz99 [n=root@125.96.99.20] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Burgundavia [n=corey@ubuntu/member/burgundavia] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ash211 [n=andrew@user-112128p.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === rpereira [n=rpereira@ubuntu/member/rpereira] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Burgundavia_ [n=corey@ubuntu/member/burgundavia] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === cyphase [n=cyphase@c-71-202-49-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pkh [n=pkh@138.77.138.5] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === asac_ [n=asac@debian/developer/asac] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: IRC Operators | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Feb 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 21 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 22 Feb 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 17:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor === PriceChild [n=pricechi@ubuntu/member/pricechild] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Madpilot [n=brian@ubuntu/member/madpilot] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Fujitsu [n=Fujitsu@ubuntu/member/fujitsu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mneptok [n=mneptok@modemcable178.77-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [06:01] can i request we wait 5 mins please. i've only just got home and i need to get a drink [06:02] elkbuntu: sure. until Seveas actually materializes, we cant do much anyway [06:02] this is true [06:05] we could start the dumming and watch fires. [06:05] +r [06:06] well, "duwwing," too. === Hobbsee sets mneptok on fire, to start with [06:06] I see that mneptok is using his Keyboard of Incoherency this evening. That'll make the meeting more interesting. [06:07] doesnt he always, though? [06:07] sometimes he's just pasting song lyrics [06:07] oh there's a meeting === ajmitch had better go back to lurking [06:10] sorry. the "keyboard of incoherency" was actually "keyboard with a penny in it" [06:10] ajmitch, eventually it will be a meeting. Currently it's just overflow from the den of insanity that is #ubuntu-ops === Hobbsee attacks Madpilot with the Long Pointy Stick of DOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! === Madpilot thanks Hobbsee for proving his point about insanity. [06:11] hah [06:11] Madpilot: that's ok, I used to lurk in there as well [06:11] Hobbsee: when are you putting that stick under a CC license? [06:11] oh, and I'll thank the Academy, too. Apparently it's the done thing. [06:12] mneptok: godo question [06:12] it's LPSoD licensed, isn't it? [06:13] sigh, licence proliferation [06:13] you were just attacked with a trademarked stick [06:14] LPSoDL - the Long Pointy Stick of DOOM License [06:15] copyrightintoyourhead [06:16] we're spamming -meeting, aren't we? [06:16] yep === nalioth [i=nalioth@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.nalioth] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [06:17] nalioth! [06:17] ajmitch! [06:17] elkbuntu: Did those poll results ever go public? [06:18] sid, not yet. this is not an appropriate place to discuss it either === tonyyarusso [n=anthony@ubuntu/member/tonyyarusso] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === philwyett [n=philwyet@bb-87-81-146-45.ukonline.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Jucato [n=jucato@ubuntu/member/Jucato] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [06:48] oh? [06:48] oops sorry === Jucato [n=jucato@ubuntu/member/Jucato] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Konversation] === gobat [n=chatzill@h189.222.29.71.ip.alltel.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Jucato [n=jucato@ubuntu/member/Jucato] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === j_ack [n=rudi@p508DA98A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dholbach [n=daniel@i59F73F10.versanet.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Madpilot [n=brian@ubuntu/member/madpilot] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["http://www.warbard.ca/temp/CthulhubuntuLogo.png"] === ash211 [n=andrew@user-112128p.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === cyphase [n=cyphase@c-71-202-49-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ash211 [n=andrew@user-112128p.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ash211 [n=andrew@user-112128p.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ash211 [n=andrew@user-112128p.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mneptok [n=mneptok@modemcable178.77-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === Lure [n=lure@ubuntu/member/lure] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === robitaille [n=daniel@ubuntu/member/robitaille] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ash211 [n=andrew@user-112128p.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Feb 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 21 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 22 Feb 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 17:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 17:00 UTC: LoCo Team === nalioth [i=nalioth@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.nalioth] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === ryanakca_ [n=ryan@ubuntu/member/ryanakca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ryanakca_ [n=ryan@ubuntu/member/ryanakca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Jucato [n=jucato@ubuntu/member/Jucato] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Konversation] === ubuntu_newgal [n=ks@adsl-69-109-255-92.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === sky_walkie [i=czzhrd02@xdsl-563.lodz.dialog.net.pl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === freeflying [i=flyingfr@ubuntu/member/freeflying] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Tonio_ [n=tonio@28.8.100-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ryanakca_ [n=ryan@d226-26-139.home.cgocable.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === krampo [n=krampo@krampis.cs.fmf.lu.lv] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === givre [n=Florent@APuteaux-152-1-83-7.w86-205.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mvo [n=egon@p54A651CD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === raphink [n=raphink@ubuntu/member/raphink] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === juliux [n=juliux@ubuntu/member/juliux] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Lure [n=lure@external-7.hermes.si] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lmanul [n=manu@dan75-4-82-239-58-38.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === finalbeta [n=finalbet@d5152A68A.access.telenet.be] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jsgotangco [n=jsg123@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dungodung|sleep is now known as dungodung [11:20] so it wasn't a big meeting, I see === jenda` [n=jenda@195.47.80.185.adsl.nextra.cz] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === rodarvus [n=rodarvus@ubuntu/member/rodarvus] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ubuntu_newgal [n=ks@adsl-69-109-255-92.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Ex-Chat"] === Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mvo_ [n=egon@p54A651CD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === licio [n=licio@ubuntu/member/licio] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === fernando_ [n=fernando@189.0.158.36] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === rodarvus [n=rodarvus@ubuntu/member/rodarvus] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === MatthewV [n=MatthewV@202.183.119.227] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ubuntu_newgal [n=paddie@adsl-69-109-255-92.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ubuntu_newgal [n=paddie@adsl-69-109-255-92.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Ex-Chat"] === afflux [i=discoflu@gateway/tor/x-31a55fc4ab3d3cf2] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dennda [n=dennda@p57A83CA3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dinda [n=dinda@cpe-72-181-81-14.houston.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Boknoy [n=boknoy@unaffiliated/boknoy] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === rtg [n=rtg@gn-216-166-171-58.mtwireless.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === tkjacobsen [n=mash@105.18.235.85.dk-boa.res.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === tkjacobsen [n=mash@105.18.235.85.dk-boa.res.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === boredandblogging [n=asdfasdf@c-24-98-177-125.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [03:16] boredandblogging, hi. what's your blog address, then? 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=== Keybuk [n=scott@quest.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === heno [n=henrik@ubuntu/member/heno] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:48] @now [09:48] Current time in Etc/UTC: February 15 2007, 20:48:40 - Next meeting: Ubuntu Development Team in 11 minutes === kwwii_ [n=kwwii@p54955119.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Feb 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 21 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 22 Feb 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 17:00 UTC: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 17:00 UTC: LoCo Team [09:51] ajmitch: yes === philwyett [n=philwyet@bb-87-81-146-45.ukonline.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:52] roll call [09:53] present [09:53] <_kyle> batman! er. nope, just me. [09:53] hola [09:53] here === seb128 [n=seb128@ubuntu/member/seb128] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:53] <_kyle> (connected xchat since my ssh is all laggy) [09:53] howdy all [09:55] hello [09:55] cjwatson,heno,doko,BenC,pkl,asac,tkamppeter,Keybuk,pitti,fabbione,tfheen,iwj,ogra: ping [09:55] pong [09:55] pong === ogra waves [09:56] _o/ === Hirvinen [i=patrik@hoas-fe3ddd00-123.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:56] hi === pitti [n=pitti@ubuntu/member/pitti] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:56] hello === BenC [n=bcollins@debian/developer/bcollins] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:57] here, just making coffee [09:58] BenC: is pkl around? === iwj [n=ian@xenophobe.extern.relativity.greenend.org.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:59] mdz: checking [09:59] pong [09:59] cjwatson: coffee, sounds good [09:59] cjwatson: expecting till? [09:59] fabbione: ping [10:00] he's coming === pkl_ [n=phillip@lougher.demon.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === tsmithe [n=toby@ubuntu/member/tsmithe] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:00] ok, moving along [10:01] rtg: you started last week, but this is your first weekly meeting. welcome! === keescook [n=kees@ubuntu/member/keescook] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:01] rtg: hi! [10:01] Thanks. === brottman [n=brianr@vpn.beenegarter.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:01] hi rtg [10:01] pong [10:01] hello rtg! [10:01] sorry i am late [10:01] rtg is Tim Gardner, who I believe remains the newest addition to the kernel team [10:02] hey rtg [10:02] hello! [10:02] agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20070215 [10:02] any last-minute additions? [10:02] mdz: Till didn't say he wasn't coming [10:03] ok, moving right along [10:03] pitti: you're up [10:03] # [10:03] Do we want to use XSBC-Original-Maintainer (which works, modulo the small bug fix that is already prepared), or teach dpkg about a proper 'Original-Maintainer:' field? [10:03] there was some discussion about this by mail [10:03] so, the point is, XSBC- looks ugly, but works [10:04] We should use XSBC- for at least the next while, as I say. [10:04] the .debs, .dsc etc. have Original-Maintainer, so for users it's fine [10:04] adding the field is trivial, but I don't know if Debian will take it. [10:04] Well, let's offer them the patch and if and when they take it and it's widely deployed we can switch to it. [10:04] so the effect won't change if we later teach dpkg about the new field [10:04] iwj: why? If we actually think it's a good idea, we should just go with O-M, IMO. [10:04] There's no harm of XSBC- in the meantime except that it's slightly ugly. [10:04] tfheen: Because people often run source-processing tools not on the distrorelease. === pitti agrees to iwj here, especially if we have tool support for making these changes [10:05] ... that they are intended for. [10:05] I said all this by email ... [10:05] where was this e-mail conversation? [10:05] distro-team@, iirc [10:05] replies to my activity report [10:05] ah, yes [10:05] Should it have been in ubuntu-devel ? [10:06] OTOH, failing to use XSBC- only has the consequence of an ugly error message, not build failures, IIRC [10:06] cjwatson: correct. [10:06] iwj: yes [10:06] mdz: OK [10:06] cjwatson: and that the field doesn't actually appear in the debs/dsc? [10:06] iwj: then I say we can just add it to our dpkg and those who don't use our dpkg can use XSBC-. [10:06] pitti: sure, but whatever [10:06] cjwatson: Err, using O-M when the tool doesn't support it means the field gets lost. [10:06] cjwatson: but that'd miss the point? [10:06] iwj: does that actually matter? [10:06] all we've promised to do is have it in our archive [10:06] tfheen: But the question is _what do we put in our packages_, which other people besides us touch too. [10:06] pitti: the debs will be fine as they're built on the autobuilder. [10:07] there's no reason to use O-M in Debian [10:07] right, just .dsc [10:07] it makes no technical difference to the package [10:07] cjwatson: All universe maintainers are now to be forbidden from running dpkg-foobarpackage other than on feisty ? [10:07] oh, that's true, it would make a difference to the .dsc [10:07] in that case I agree with Ian [10:07] iwj: do you develop on Feisty? [10:07] mdz: Yes, but I run dpkg-signchanges on sarge. [10:08] signchanges is irrelevant; -gencontrol is the interesting one. [10:08] tfheen: Yes, but this is turning into a complex set of rules that everyone has to get right. [10:08] I have in the past built Ubuntu source packages on Debian (quite regularly) and I see no reason why we should break that [10:08] XSBC- just works and we should use it. [10:08] except it doesn't work correctly due to a bug? [10:08] What cjwatson said. Sometimes I don't have a feisty install to hand. [10:09] tfheen: I have fixed that in my pending upload [10:09] tfheen: The bug we can get fixed in etch even probably. [10:09] well, cjwatson did the fix [10:09] pitti: oh sure, but the "you can't build packages on !feisty" argument applies until it actually is in other stable releases. [10:09] tfheen: but the bug is irrelevant mostly, it only affects propagation to .debs, not to .dsc [10:10] "can't" here meaning "will not have a 100% compliant .dsc", nothing will actually break. [10:10] tfheen: irrelevant for building source packages, that is [10:10] And why oh why oh why are we having this argument by IRC ?? IRC is a terrible medium for arguments. [10:10] pitti: oh, ok. === pitti actually prefers discussing stuff synchronously === ogra too === tfheen prefers IRC over email any day. [10:10] I'm not hearing serious objections to XSBC- [10:11] I'm still in favour of eventually supporting O-M, but that's something for later [10:11] so I think we should do that and move on to the next of the several items on the agenda === jbailey [n=jbailey@modemcable178.77-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:11] pitti: sure [10:11] pitti: Yes. [10:11] * Can we find a sane method that dch can use to tell apart main from universe packages? If so, we could add an automatic change of [Original-] Maintainer:. [10:11] great [10:11] mdz addressed that on distro-team@ [10:11] mdz was right. [10:12] ok, so we set it to $DEBEMAIL? [10:12] and warn if it's not m/ubuntu/? [10:12] no, leave it alone [10:12] pitti: or kubuntu or edubuntu... [10:13] often you want it to be the relevant team mailing list instead [10:13] cjwatson: my q is about doing something if there's no O-M [10:13] I'm fine with fixing it manually, it's just a bit cumbersome [10:13] and, as doko noticed, pro/demotions will break the default ML values [10:14] I don't think we should mess with debian/control (or even Maintainer in the .dsc) automatically. It's far too fragile. [10:14] doko's point is valid but later on the agenda :-) [10:14] heh [10:14] it's just closely coupled [10:14] anyway, if noone is in favor of automatic changing, lets go on [10:15] For main packages, should we rather use ubuntu-devel-discuss@ instead of ubuntu-devel@? If so, we need to change and sign off the spec. [10:15] addressed on distro-team@ (yes) [10:15] Do we need to get all packages fixed in Feisty? IOW, do we need mass-uploads or can we just slowly migrate the fields over time? [10:15] that's done [10:15] also addressed on distro-team@ [10:15] handling of addresses where source/binary are in different pockets; CORE address for packages in universe. [10:15] not really [10:15] some packages built in feisty do not have equivalents in Debian [10:15] not really to which? [10:15] I'd really like to discuss the schedule here [10:15] so automatic modification would be wrong in that case [10:15] If we do nothing special, all the packages will be updated by feisty+1, right ? [10:15] cjwatson: slow/quick migration [10:16] iwj: we need to modify debian/control, that won't happen automagically === Ku-vaughany [n=vaughany@82.152.96.60] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:16] so, mdz and I had the compromise of fixing all 350-some main .debs for feisty [10:16] I'm with mdz on this; we are way behind on our commitment and we need to get it done [10:16] All of the .debs will be updated and not all of the .dscs, then ? [10:17] and do the source-only and universe ones with the feisty+1 merge [10:17] iwj: not magically, no. Just through churn. [10:17] I think that's fair [10:17] we have 750 main and > 1000 universe sources which need to be modified, and rebuilt by beta otherwise [10:18] and if we get new X.org packages anyway, a good chunk of the 350 .debs will already be sorted out [10:18] the source maintainer is much less visible, and unlikely to be noticed by users reporting problems with the package [10:18] (explanation: fixing the .debs is a matter of pure rebuild) [10:18] which is the source of the complaint [10:18] so we'd get the dpkg-source check into feisty now, so that we do not continue to upload sources with wrong maintainers [10:19] so fixing the remaining .debs is a solid incremental step toward finishing the job [10:19] as is fixing dpkg-source [10:20] ok, if we don't have further comments, I'll care for the rebuilds and take doko's gcc changes into account [10:21] ok [10:21] * handling of addresses where source/binary are in different pockets; CORE address for packages in universe. [10:21] doko: ^ you need some rebuilds? [10:21] win 12 [10:21] I think for this only source packages matter [10:21] erk [10:21] source/binary is irrelevant, as discussed on the list [10:21] pitti: yes, I'll send you the list; please start after GCC-4.1.2 is in the archive [10:21] doko: ETA? === givre [n=Florent@APuteaux-152-1-53-12.w82-120.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:22] after the freeze ends. tfheen ? [10:22] doko: ah, that's fine [10:22] * Promotion/demotion invalidates the address. [10:22] regarding promotion/demotion, I'm personally not fussed === tkamppeter [n=till@bl7-104-12.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:22] I suggest that somebody write a tool which points out the inconsistencies, and we can garden it from time to time [10:23] this is much more about masking the original address than providing the best contact [10:23] much like the other such tools we already have [10:23] if people set it manually anyway, then we hopefully will get more specialized teams or individual maintainers anyway [10:23] but I agree it is not urgent [10:23] doko: freeze ends tonight; It seems the current set of ISOs is good, so I'll release them tonight and thaw the archive, then send out the announcement tomorrow morning. [10:23] they'll be fixed when rebuilt [10:23] we actually need to rebuild such packages anyway for translation changes [10:23] ok then, it's only an issue for the source, so even less urgent to change things [10:23] tfheen: just ping me when I can upload (if it's before bedtime) [10:24] so we're all clear on debian-maintainer-field now? [10:24] yes, sorry for the abundance of questions [10:24] but this affects so many packages that we should get it right at the first shot [10:25] agreed, thanks [10:25] pitti: I answered you about apport-retrace on the list; I think it's very useful, but we're behind on a few higher-priority items where you might be able to help out if you have spare cycles [10:25] right, got that [10:25] pitti: did you already talk with Scott about your tasks? [10:25] spare cycles go into bug fixing, but I'm happy to help out with specs where appropriate [10:26] mdz: not yet, I was away in the evening, sorry [10:26] * ISO release testing (Henrik Omma): I think we should decide before Beta whether we are going to actually use the Malone-based tracker. Are people comfortable with it or is the wiki better after all? Simon, Tollef: are you two leading beta release/testing together or do I have a key part in this (beyond the community-based contribution)? [10:27] it works well enough from my point of view [10:27] It seems to have worked fairly well today [10:27] personally I found the wiki much better for getting an overview of the overall state, but bugs parallelize better [10:27] ++ [10:27] heno: on the latter item, I'd like you to lead the testing side of this, since you've been making good progress with it so far [10:27] that is true [10:27] I'm much happier this time than the previous time. [10:27] heno: let's talk about that on the phone tomorrow? [10:28] tfheen: are bug comments from individual testers getting through to you effectively? [10:28] cjwatson: ok, s long as it's clear that I'm doing it [10:28] pitti: can you think of a way to improve the overview using the bugs? [10:28] cjwatson: sure [10:28] cjwatson: we haven't really had many individual testers, but yes, I have subscribed to the product. [10:28] heno: thanks, I appreciate it [10:28] mdz: we could use bughelper to create a report === zorglu_ [n=zorglub@86.73.86.169] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Konversation] [10:28] heno described a scheme using the status field to provide a sort of overview, though of course it requires someone to maintain the state [10:28] mdz, a generated table overview ? [10:29] people who post a result can update the state [10:29] that would need to parse the bugtexts though [10:29] wejust need good etting of testers [10:29] heno: I don't think that will happen in practice [10:29] pitti: I need to chat a bit with dholbach about bughelper, I guess; I really want to generate reports from malone and can't today. [10:29] a mere matrix with the current bug states would already be helpful, I figure [10:29] to make sure they are clued in and committed [10:29] not just for ISO testing, but also for other release metics. [10:29] and it would be best if the amount of education of testers required is as small as possible [10:30] I don't see how bughelper helps, can you explain? [10:30] I envision just a small group of 'trusted' community testers this cycle [10:31] mdz: it can scrape useful state info from the bug pages [10:31] I'm worried that we'll swamp a small group; it's a lot of work even for full-time staff [10:31] mdz: I meant, using the bughelper library to find the bugs and get their states, and then cobbling together some HTML report [10:31] and present them in an html table [10:31] heno: :) [10:32] cjwatson: yes, it should be possible to just jump in and test a single ISO without having to go through a big process to do so. [10:32] what would that tell you which wouldn't be visible from the table on the iso tracker bug page? [10:32] so we get a non-editable 'wiki' page powered by the malone content [10:32] the problem is that finer grained info like the different install variants is only in the bugtexts [10:32] mdz: we could count number of testers, parse out the ok/fail comments, parse out bug numbers to make them clickable, etc. [10:32] mdz: the malone bug page is going to be unwieldy when we have the full test cases there, as we will for beta, RC and release. [10:33] ogra: no we will do separate bugs for those in later milestones [10:33] ah, cool [10:33] pitti: oh, I see, using the format conventions described in the docs [10:33] it looked like some people were using those at least [10:33] so there will be very many tracker bugs [10:33] so an overview html page is a must really [10:33] tfheen: no more unwieldy than the wiki page, and probably less [10:34] I think it would be worse tha the wiki [10:34] unless you filter by tags [10:34] . o O { using an apport GUI to create a report with parseable standard syntax, yummy } [10:34] perhaps we can brainstorm mad ideas by mail? :-) [10:34] but the bughelper hack should be easy [10:34] yep [10:35] I'll prepare something [10:35] but as I said, I'd really like to be able to pull statistics out of malone since I can't today and I'd love to for a release status page. [10:35] (email with ideas) [10:35] ACTION: heno, tfheen, pitti etc. to discuss and prepare status overview page for ISO tests [10:35] tfheen: that's doable [10:35] ok, done :) [10:36] [UbuntuSpec] increase-hwdb-participation (Sebastien Bacher): do we need a menu item for hwdb participation? that's something that is likely to be launched once only and will clutter the menu then [10:36] the point here is that we want it to be obvious how to contribute to the database [10:36] and we want to keep the menus or shell not too long if possible [10:36] heads-up: right now we have an one-time notification pointing people to the menu item [10:36] and we do want people to contribute again if their hardware changes [10:36] because many items make them hard to use [10:36] we discussed that the other day in -devel ... the most proper solution (having a button in the notofocation) braks the notofocation policy [10:36] we can easily point people somewhere else [10:37] meh ... [10:37] well, there is a button to do that to hal-device-manager === ogra goes for a typing course [10:37] why not put it in System-->Administration ? [10:37] seb128: no one knows that is there [10:37] no, no button in the notification, that'd be wrong [10:37] we can point people to h-d-m [10:37] right === Ubugtu [n=bugbot@ubuntu/bot/ubugtu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:37] mdz: we display a notification bubble if I understood that correctly [10:37] without the control center i agree ... [10:37] mdz: we could point people to hal-device-manager [10:37] seb128: yes, we do that today already. [10:37] we already have a lot of icons in the control-center, I don't think it will get worse [10:37] yep we do [10:37] we could mention it on the default firefox homepage [10:38] mvo: we try to reduce the list [10:38] (if people look at that) === mvo is not sure if people actually read that ff page [10:38] mvo: we should not start accepting random icons because the list is already long, that's not a reason to make it longer [10:39] another option is to just open hwdb-client right away on first login [10:39] what would be wrong with pointing people to h-d-m? [10:39] pitti: ugh [10:39] but I understand that contradicts our 'no wizards' policy [10:39] i'm not opposing to point to h-d-m ... if users dont have to wait for control-center and have to search there [10:39] I think the new g-c-c concept does not work very well, but that is a different discussion [10:39] heno: that's not a bad idea [10:39] cjwatson: ugh indeed :/ [10:39] grrraa [10:39] I agree with seb128 on this, and icon for a one-time item is a bit much [10:39] please stop the constant ranting on the shell [10:39] I already said we will switch back to menu [10:39] seb128: I think the new shell is much better. [10:39] to return to the issue at hand... [10:39] we could make it quite prominent on the FF page [10:39] (that's especially for ogra and mvo who keep telling that every day) === mvo hugs seb128 [10:40] heno: you just cannot open programs with HTML links [10:40] right ..., thats why i'm not opposed to drop the menu item completely [10:40] we're concerned with the use case "I want to submit my system profile to the Ubuntu hardware database" [10:40] seb128, ^^^ [10:40] ogra: people have to find it again if HW changes [10:40] tfheen: it still has some bugs and could be faster, it's likely to be default upstream next cycle [10:40] pitti: right but you can show a screenshot with colourful arrows :) [10:40] pitti, but then they have seen it once at least === pitti thinks that in fact most of the things in c-c will only be used once, so *shrug* [10:41] mdz: well, that mean the menu item will be used like once a year (you don't change config every week usually) [10:41] mdz: and it'll be in the way the rest of the time [10:41] pitti: actually you can, with a custom mime-type [10:41] seb128: agreed, it's rarely used [10:41] seb128: neither do users change their theme or keyboard layout [10:41] pitti: those are configuration tools [10:41] heno: urgh :) [10:42] pitti: and people might play with theme more often than you think [10:42] filename.launch-hwdb :) [10:42] seb128: sure [10:42] but that's not the point === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:42] seb128: the data we collect from it is very important, and if users don't see it, they don't participate. I agree with your concerns about the menu, but how else can we present it where users will discover it? [10:42] I'm just trying to keep the list of menu or shell items not too long [10:42] another idea: [10:43] mdz: we have a notify bubble, pointing them to hwdb menu item or hal-device-manager is about the same no? [10:43] how'bout adding it to update-notifier? people would get a tray icon and if they click on it, it'd open h-c, and then the icon would disappear [10:43] we could do it as a post-install note [10:43] mdz: h-d-m is also to the menu and it has a button to run hwdb-client [10:43] can we make it very prominent during testing and much less at release time? [10:43] u-n has support for this already [10:43] it can even include scripts [10:43] i really think it doesnt needed an extra menu entry ... and if i remember correctly that was the initial polcy when mdz assigned the project to me ... [10:43] pitti: and then readd the icon if the hardware changes? [10:43] tfheen: that's harder [10:44] i had a bunch of whishlist bugs that made it appear [10:44] the people who run feisty are the most likely to participate anyway [10:44] pitti: well, that's what I said before, use a notification area icon, that would work too [10:44] pitti: not really; store a md5sum of the lspci output or something somewhere and check that on login. [10:44] tfheen: but it would bring people to it once, and then we can hide it behind h-d-m and explain where it is in the icon notificatino [10:44] ogra: it originally had a menu entry; it was removed during one of the menu cleanups [10:44] tfheen: and usb, and there it gets trickier [10:45] pitti: isn't that what the increase-hwdb-participation spec was meant to be? [10:45] mdz, the first hoary version only had the h-d-m button ... in breezy i added the menu entry mainly because kubuntu complained ... [10:45] pitti: notify the user once? [10:45] mdz: it talks about a notification, not a tray applet [10:45] When we get a slideshow in ubiquity we can show it there [10:45] pitti: we have the post-install notifications in u-n, we could use those [10:45] mdz: from a notification we cannot launch programs, but from a tray icon we can [10:45] they are there and ready (and support scripts) [10:46] well, we can launch programs from notifications, but it is *very* ugly usability-wise === dfarning [n=dfarning@mail.pfc.coop] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:46] this item is dragging on somewhat [10:46] the u-n post-install hooks have a dialog that contains a button. nice text + button [10:46] let's use that then [10:46] mvo: sounds good [10:46] a problem with regular notifications is they disappear, so if you don't pay attention, they go away and you can't get them back [10:46] so interacting with notifications is bad. [10:46] so long as the user is inivted to participate when they install, I'm happy [10:47] either launching the client directly or providing simple instructions [10:47] pitti: lets check this out tomorrow together, ok? [10:47] mvo: yes [10:47] opening device manager and finding the button is not simple enough, though [10:47] ACTION: mvo/pitti to review options for hwdb notifications [10:47] moving on [10:47] mdz: the install note could explain where it is [10:47] Maintenance "costs" of python debug packages (Matthias Klose) [10:48] (this was about maintaining a large delta from Debian for the -dbg packages, since Debian is frozen ATM, and hasn't decided yet whether to adopt it) [10:49] and the debian/rules code for that is nontrivial [10:49] doko: ping ^ [10:50] yes, the thing is, if we want/can afford it. it's a diff for every package we want to build extensions [10:50] in debug mode. [10:50] I thought we had discussed this already [10:50] I'm afraid I don't have the context [10:50] how many packages are involved? [10:50] about 50 in main [10:50] in fact I'm sure I spoke with you about this before and said yes [10:50]