[10:32] <Apollyon_> Sorry!
[11:20] <phaidros> wow, what kind of channel is this?
[11:20] <unop> i'm here :)
[11:20] <nalioth> unop: there are two ways of being a superuser in Ubuntu
[11:21] <unop> was i just banned in #ubuntu?
[11:21] <nalioth> one: use the 'custom install' and have it enable a root account (just like any other unix)
[11:21] <nalioth> nope, you were not
[11:21] <phaidros> which 'custom install' ?
[11:21] <nalioth> if you use the custom install, Ubuntu looks, acts and behaves like any other unix
[11:22] <phaidros> option during install? (never seen)
[11:22] <nalioth> phaidros: when you boot the install cd, you have install options.  one is "custom"
[11:22] <phaidros> k.
[11:22] <nalioth> the 2nd way is "sudo password root"
[11:22] <unop> nalioth,  you misunderstood me in there -- i know how root works on ubuntu, i've said it twice, you dont need root enabled, you can do without -- i'm just disagreeing and questioning the issue of breakage resulting from enabling root
[11:23] <nalioth> this is wrong, as the system is not set up to recognzie "root" giving orders
[11:23] <phaidros> thats what I'd like to know also!
[11:23] <phaidros> nalioth, where?
[11:23] <nalioth> phaidros: where what?
[11:23] <phaidros> of course the system takes orders from root. where is an example setting of system not reacting proper on root?
[11:23] <unop> nalioth,  that is not of my experience (TM) .. i have used ubuntu for quite sometime now and never had a problem with root
[11:24] <phaidros> same same
[11:24] <nalioth> unop: but the folks who write the wiki write it from experience gained in #ubuntu and the other help channels
[11:24] <nalioth> we've seen how it can sometimes screw things up
[11:24] <unop> nalioth, we arent newbies if thats what you are suggesting
[11:24] <nalioth> your experience is great, but "works for me" doesn't work for everyone
[11:25] <unop> nalioth,  and i am telling you from my own experience, from reading, learning, doing .. first hand
[11:25] <phaidros> i understand that sudo is a policy, but there is no technical or logical reason (facts I've seen) on your argument ..
[11:25] <phaidros> just zero, thats why I'm confused on that
[11:25] <phaidros> and - I'd wonder if ubuntu coders would do like this: to build unix-incompatibilities
[11:26] <nalioth> phaidros: the collective knowledge of lots of helpers in #ubuntu and the forums have led us to that.  you both are single users and probably don't administer more than 2 or 3 computers each
[11:26] <unop> nalioth,  ok, i understand this is ubuntu policy, fine, i dont disrespect and wish to go against it .. for the fourth time, i'll give you my stance on root -- i dont recommend enabling it, sudo does you fine
[11:26] <phaidros> 50
[11:26] <unop> nalioth,  now, i'd like to know (since you are an op here and know ububntu well) what apps break as a result of having root enabled?
[11:26] <nalioth> then please don't advise "sudo passwd root" instead "sudo -i"
[11:26] <phaidros> I'm not here to make a stand to recommend root, I'm here to know facts :)
[11:26] <unop> nalioth,  did you see me advise enabling root?
[11:26] <nalioth> some of the server things don't work correctly
[11:27] <phaidros> I was :)
[11:27] <phaidros> sry for that
[11:27] <phaidros> again, I understand the policy
[11:27] <unop> nalioth,  please be specific, "some things" are what exactly?
[11:27] <phaidros> but if someone asks if it works anyway, then: yes, passwd root gives ya root
[11:27] <nalioth> apache, mysql, some other server level things
[11:28] <phaidros> huh? really?
[11:28] <nalioth> phaidros: just send them "!sudo"
[11:28] <unop> nalioth,  they dont work because yo enable root.. thats not true
[11:28] <nalioth> or !root
[11:28] <phaidros> nalioth, ok. fine for me, nbut please tell me a real world example of what you state!
[11:28] <unop> nalioth,  apache, mysql and pretty much everything else these days does now run under root anyway
[11:28] <nalioth> unop: fine. "works for me" isn't always good advice in #ubuntu
[11:29] <phaidros> sry nalioth your argument is pointless.
[11:29] <unop> nalioth,  i dont disagree with that
[11:29] <nalioth> it's pointless, fine.
[11:29] <unop> nalioth,  i was just disagreeing with the facts about root
[11:29] <phaidros> we are not here to here about what to say, we are here to know what you mean by" passwd root may break things!
[11:29] <unop> nalioth,  not about whether users should have it enabled or not
[11:29] <nalioth> i've been helping in #ubuntu for over 2 years and seen the phenomonon
[11:29] <phaidros> example please! this should be considered as bugs!
[11:30] <phaidros> imho
[11:30] <phaidros> (no offence intented here, just want to know detail)
[11:30] <phaidros> ;)
[11:30] <unop> nalioth, i've been in and out of ubuntu for 4 months and see it too and i understand where you are coming from
[11:32] <unop> nalioth,  but it's not right to say "things break" as a result of enabling root -- because that just isnt true, it has no bearing on the user's environment, the bootup, servers, services, why should it?

[11:32] <nalioth> i'm not good at debating
[11:32] <nalioth> i've seen what i've seen (and so have others)
[11:34] <unop> nalioth,  thats not good enough now is it, you're playing a trump here ... yes, others might experience things "unusual", but then that behaviour should be considered "abnormal" an appropriate steps should be taken to remedy that
[11:34] <phaidros> its no debate, its just requesting what you said ;)
[11:34] <nalioth> unop: i agree. i don't file bugs on things i see in #ubuntu
[11:34] <phaidros> I'd go for a bug if that would happen to me using root ..
[11:38] <nalioth> talk to some of the other folks who've helped in #ubuntu a long long time
[11:38] <nalioth> the bottom line is: do not help where it might bring harm
[11:38] <nalioth> "works for me" is horrid lesson planning
[11:38] <nalioth> if i helped with what "works for me" we'd all be broken
[11:42] <phaidros> we still misunderstand each other.
[11:42] <unop> nalioth,  i dont really classify this as a "works for me" scenario , because it is proven to work and work well on every other unix system out there, I believe it's a good thing ubuntu (and the mac, etc) lock root and give you sudo .. but enabling root comes handy in times of emergency, especially if the primary user forgets his credentials
[11:42] <phaidros> I'm not stating I'd ever tell sudo passwd again.
[11:42] <phaidros> I'm asking for the technical background (in facts) of your warning, because that concerns me
[11:43] <nalioth> if the primary user forgets his credentials, he can boot a liveCD (like OSX) and get them back
[11:44] <unop> i'll have to agree with phaidros -- the only actual reason I am here is because i know you are an op and has been working with ubuntu for quite sometime, so if you express concern, then i'd like to know what they really are
[11:44] <phaidros> nalioth, its pointless to repeat how to live without root. we know. we are interested in the problems you suggested by saying root can brak things
[11:44] <nalioth> ask some others, as i mentioned
[11:45] <nalioth> there have been enough problems that it is a concern, not sure why/if/maybe a bug has been files
[11:45] <nalioth> filed
[11:45] <unop> nalioth,  but thats just an inconvenience -- if you can drop down to the VT and log in as root and reset the password, why go through all the hassle of booting up into the live CD, chrooting, etc etc .. that's a plain inconvenice
[11:45] <nalioth> BUT if Ubuntu is not meant to have root enabled via the 2nd method, why would that be a "bug" ?
[11:47] <phaidros> because thats unix standard, things should work with enabled root as well, imho.
[11:47] <unop> nalioth,  and it's not only if the primary user forgets his/her password (which does happen) -- it's handy in emergency system admin (e.g. single user mode) .. in times when perhaps over the network, non-root users arent allowed login access, etc
[11:47] <nalioth> phaidros: if you enable it during install, it works great
[11:47] <unop> nalioth,  it works great otherwise too -- and should really
[11:47] <phaidros> if not, ubuntu goes a trange way depending standards, which I have not seen in ubuntu yet. I like all the work in ubuntu !
[11:47] <nalioth> unop: in that situation, i think the network admins will configure their boxen accordingly.  we are talking about NEW users here
[11:48] <phaidros> nalioth, is there an more experienced #ubuntu channel?
[11:48] <phaidros> like not only for noobs?
[11:48] <nalioth> phaidros: #ubuntu+1 ?
[11:48] <phaidros> kewl
[11:49] <phaidros> topic says "feisty"
[11:49] <unop> nalioth, ok, i'm talking more general now -- forget NEW users (i think we are all in agreement about them, "no root for you") .. it's the issue about the locked root account and what the repurcsions of enabling it are
[11:50] <nalioth> unop: if the ubuntu designers had wanted an active root account to play well with others, they'd have not instituted a "sudo only" install by default
[11:51] <phaidros> nalioth, imho is having only sudo a protection for noobs, to learn about root later.
[11:52] <nalioth> at which time, they can continue using sudo
[11:52] <nalioth> i've been using linux since 1997
[11:52] <nalioth> i am familiar with root
[11:52] <phaidros> to start with sudo is a very convenient thing, but asa people diggin deeper, root should not be considered harmful
[11:52] <nalioth> i got an OSX box in 2001 and have not missed a root account since.
[11:52] <nalioth> i can do ALL of my superuser tasks with sudo
[11:53] <phaidros> me to, its inconvenient for me to state sudo in front of every command
[11:53] <phaidros> so i like root.
[11:53] <nalioth> phaidros: have you ever inadvertantly wiped your system because you were in a root shell and forgot?
[11:53] <phaidros> others do too
[11:53] <nalioth> phaidros: than increase the timeout
[11:53] <nalioth> that is fine, phaidros but not the Ubuntu way
[11:53] <unop> nalioth, i think it's safer and easier to have a "sudo only" authorization mechanism -- safer because you require a user's password to then become root and easier because it's a single password to remember -- but having said that, if ubuntu's developers "designed a sudo only" mechanism and broke conventional unix as a result of that, they're in the wrong (but i dont think anything is broken, nothing i see so far is as
[11:53] <unop> a result)
[11:54] <nalioth> believe it or not, we have some long term helpers in #ubuntu that use BSD (but they don't answer the questions with BSD answers)
[11:54] <ompaul> phaidros, if you realllllly need root why not --- sudo -i the right way to do root from sudo
[11:54] <nalioth> we have some old help that uses debian sarge
[11:54] <phaidros> ompaul, its not about me, its not about sudo.
[11:55] <phaidros> its about nalioth stating that using plain root is considered harmful on ubuntu and I want to know in which case thats happening
[11:55] <unop> ompaul,  i disagee sometimes .. sudo -s  works if you want to preserve your environment and still be root
[11:55] <nalioth> ompaul: it's about me and my mention of "enabling root by force" causing some things to not respond to the root account thus enabled
[11:55] <nalioth> phaidros: i NEVER said that
[11:55] <nalioth> phaidros: if you choose custom install, you are welcome to a fully root enabled Ubuntu
[11:55] <phaidros> hm, ok.
[11:55] <unop> nalioth,  but you did say it "broke things" .. which is what i am interested in really
[11:55] <ompaul> phaidros, I already said it breaks single user mode
[11:56] <nalioth> if you enable it AFTER a default install, you may have trouble with some things interacting with root
[11:56] <ompaul> and don't give me the "remember the root password"
[11:56] <phaidros> ompaul, could you give a more detailed example please?
[11:56] <ompaul> people coming into the channel with broken boxes
[11:56] <unop> ompaul,  what exactly does it break? if you set a root password, it doesnt change in the single user mode, you use the same password
[11:57] <unop> nalioth,  yes, but what are those things exactly? thats my question
[11:57] <ompaul> with some builds it stopped people from using single user mode  - cos they had to use a password to get into the box
[11:57] <ompaul> now I have told you all that twice
[11:57] <nalioth> we've gotten lots of problems with mysql and apache AS I MENTIONED ABOVE
[11:57] <ompaul> don't suggest it in #ubuntu simple - and thanks
[11:58] <phaidros> ompaul, the single user mode is the only issue ?
[11:58] <unop> ompaul,  that should be considered "abnormal" behaviour and rectified immediately then
[11:58] <phaidros> people have set root password and forgot it afterwards?
[11:58] <ompaul> phaidros, yes
[11:58] <nalioth> unop: not if it is designed that way
[11:59] <ompaul> phaidros,  if they do most things by sudo after they learn about it - and then don't use it on a daily box
[11:59] <phaidros> well, thats reson enough to not suggest it in #ubuntu, but does not brake things in my opinion .. again, I'm not about suggesting it, I'm wondering about the concerns ;)
[11:59] <unop> nalioth,  right, so we are getting somewhere -- in what way are apache and mysql hampered as a result of an enabled root account .. what exactly? because i have installed apache and mysql and not experienced this at all
[11:59] <phaidros> same same here
[11:59] <nalioth> "works for me"
[11:59] <phaidros> well ..
[12:00] <unop> nalioth,  ah uh, you're playing a trump card here -- please justify yourself, with facts
[12:00] <phaidros> thanks unop
[12:00] <nalioth> gentlemen, i'm not here to file bugs
[12:00] <ompaul> !root
[12:00] <ubotu> sudo is a command to run programs with superuser privileges ("root"). Look at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RootSudo for all information.
[12:00] <phaidros> but to give facts to your statements ;)
[12:00] <ompaul> that is how we do it
[12:00] <nalioth> the point is, enabling a root account is not called for under any circumstances with  Ubuntu
[12:00] <ompaul> phaidros, that is what trolls expect are you a troll or do we all go back and start helping again?
[12:01] <phaidros> ok, I tend to give up my humble request on facts here *sigh
[12:01] <unop> nalioth,  ahh, this is pointless .. you tell us what to do and when questioned .. have nothing to back up your stances .. i've had enough of this beating aroudn the bush
[12:01] <ompaul> unop, do this
[12:01] <phaidros> ompaul, please not that level.
[12:02] <nalioth> unop: you and phaidros are not the first folks we've had this talk with.  please help folks in #ubuntu with Ubuntu-centric help, not "works for me" help
[12:02] <phaidros> we came here to find out about issues, and all we here is "ubuntu way" and "works for me arguments" .. sry thats not how i understand a talk between mature human beings. ..
[12:02] <ompaul> then hang around and watch it fall down when someone uses the likes of automatix or some other crud
[12:02] <phaidros> ompaul, you getting cynical ;)
[12:03] <ompaul> phaidros, I have been helping people for more than 10 years on IRC
[12:03] <phaidros> ok, is there an example for apache or mysql problems with enabled root? yes or no?
[12:03] <ompaul> phaidros, I may have seen a few things fall apart on users
[12:03] <phaidros> ompaul, and I just came swimming on a sea of soup over here ??
[12:03] <ompaul> want me to find some -
[12:03] <unop> nalioth,  you just arent understanding are you?? did i assert that user's must have root access?? NEVER AT ALL .. infact, i dont recommend users do that, i suggest sudo .. now, you dragged us in here for some reason .. i assume it was because you would clarify why exactly ubuntu takes this stance, but you havent .. and i think we're wasting time in here