[12:15] <pochu> @now
[12:15] <Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: February 16 2007, 23:15:21 - Next meeting: Xubuntu in 15 hours 44 minutes
[03:07] <juliux> @schedule berlin
[03:08] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 17 Feb 16:00: Xubuntu | 21 Feb 13:00: Edubuntu | 21 Feb 17:00: Kernel Team | 22 Feb 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 24 Feb 18:00: Ubuntu US LoCo Team Mentor | 25 Feb 18:00: LoCo Team
[04:04] <highvoltage> so			
[04:10] <cbx33> highvoltage, ?
[04:11] <highvoltage> cbx33: meant to ping somerville32, my connection just went a bit dodgy there for a while
[04:11] <cbx33> hehe
[04:11] <somerville32> Oh right
[04:11] <somerville32> Meeting time :)
[04:14] <somerville32> I've been away in the hospital for the last little while so I'm a bit disorientated.
[04:14] <somerville32> Luckily they let me come home for a weekend :)
[04:14] <highvoltage> nice
[04:14] <highvoltage> how's janimo doing? been a while since I heard from him
[04:15] <somerville32> I heard RL is getting to him
[04:15] <somerville32> ie. consuming more and more time
[04:15] <somerville32> I've never seen him on IRC
[04:15] <highvoltage> ah
[04:15] <somerville32> Just correspondence via e-mail
[04:15] <highvoltage> yeah, email seems the best way to stay in touch
[04:16] <highvoltage> somerville32: did you get any other pongbacks for the xubuntu meeting?
[04:16] <somerville32> Errmm... not yet
[04:16] <somerville32> lol
[04:16] <highvoltage> :)
[04:16] <somerville32> This time has never really been too good
[04:16] <somerville32> We might need to change it
[04:17] <somerville32> The wednesday meetings tend to get more people
[04:17] <highvoltage> seems so, yes
[04:17] <highvoltage> for some people weekends seem to be better sometimes
[04:17] <highvoltage> perhaps alternate it?
[04:17] <somerville32> We do, Wedo
[04:17] <somerville32> Wednesday and Saturday
[04:18] <highvoltage> d'oh!
[04:18] <somerville32> Hopefully a few more people show up because there is a concrete agenda for today
[04:18] <highvoltage> I would probably be away now if I didn't get a burn on my arm from my motorbike today
[04:19] <highvoltage> but I'll make a point of being here more often for the meetings
[04:19] <somerville32> Awesome :)
[04:19] <cbx33> how many people are involved in xubuntu...if you don't mind my asking
[04:20] <somerville32> Tough question
[04:20] <somerville32> 4-6 different people, I'd say
[04:20] <highvoltage> as far as I understand, janimo packages most of the core packages, and then there's a cloud of xubuntu around that
[04:21] <highvoltage> the xfce packages from xubuntu are going on the second edubuntu cd as well
[04:21] <somerville32> Janimo, Gpocentrek, Crimsun, and myself too most of the packaging stuff
[04:21] <somerville32> s/too/do
[04:21] <highvoltage> that might help xubuntu in the long run
[04:21] <somerville32> :D
[04:21] <somerville32> Thats pretty cool
[04:22] <somerville32> How is Edubuntu doing with testing?
[04:22] <cbx33> highvoltage, AWESOME
[04:22] <somerville32> Thats someone we're struggling with
[04:22] <hyper_ch> may I ask something?
[04:22] <cbx33> testing it always hard
[04:22] <somerville32> hyper_ch, Sure :)
[04:23] <hyper_ch> what I wonder is the following: When I install Ubuntu (for example) and then do sudo aptitude install xubuntu-desktop --> why isn't it the same as when I install xubuntu directly?
[04:23] <highvoltage> somerville32: cbx33 is probably edubuntu's most prominent tester, probably followed by myself
[04:23] <highvoltage> somerville32: well, except from ogra, that is
[04:23] <cbx33> indeed
[04:23] <cbx33> I test, but I suppose I dev more and more lately
[04:23] <highvoltage> somerville32: some schools also switch to the next version before release, giving good feedback
[04:23] <kalikiana> hyper_ch, what is different exactly?
[04:24] <hyper_ch> kalikiana: can't tell... it just doesn't look the same and hasn't the same appz installed as by a default installation of xubuntu
[04:24] <hyper_ch> same goes if I install xubuntu and then add kubuntu-desktop
[04:24] <hyper_ch> and so on
[04:26] <grazie> somerville32: I was getting iinvolved with doing some xubuntu testing..i contacted jani about it..but now the ppc plus has been pulled it changes things :(
[04:26] <kalikiana> is it possibly fewer apps as in 'required' but without some optional things? i didn't actually notice that.
[04:26] <grazie> s/plus/plug/ ^^
[04:27] <somerville32> Alrighty
[04:27] <somerville32> Today we need to discuss artwork, documentation, and testing
[04:27] <somerville32> I'd first like to focus on how we can improve testing to ensure that we get pre-releases out on time.
[04:28] <somerville32> I get the impression that people do test but maybe don't report it?
[04:28] <Jmak> Hey, I am here
[04:30] <Jmak> Iam working on some icons
[04:30] <somerville32> Hi Jmak
[04:30] <somerville32> We're just discussing testing
[04:30] <Jmak> I am testing feisty so far everything works great
[04:31] <somerville32> I think to resolve the issue with testing, we simply need to promote it more and make sure we're promoting the correct way of reporting so that the pre-releases get released automatically
[04:31] <somerville32> cbx33, It would be a big help :)
[04:31] <grazie> somerville32: for myself...reports failures is fine...reporting passes is tedious..hence coverage is not recorded
[04:31] <cbx33> ok
[04:31] <highvoltage> somerville32: I test Xubuntu packages regularly for work purposes
[04:31] <cbx33> I'll set it downloading now
[04:31] <highvoltage> somerville32: but I don't report back on Xubuntu stuff
[04:31] <highvoltage> somerville32: so I'll make a point of giving more feedback
[04:31] <cbx33> install or desktop?
[04:31] <cbx33> preference?
[04:32] <somerville32> highvoltage, Maybe there are ways to facilitate communication with Edubuntu and Xubuntu with regarding to testing to prevent duplications of efforts.
[04:33] <grazie> somerville32: I think a webform for test coverage would be good
[04:33] <highvoltage> somerville32: absolutely
[04:36] <somerville32> How do people find using launchpad?
[04:36] <somerville32> Isn't that what we're suppose to be using these days?
[04:36] <highvoltage> most complaints are about the UI and the licensing
[04:36] <highvoltage> the UI is getting an overhaul, though
[04:36] <highvoltage> some people have posted screenshots of the new lp interface
[04:37] <somerville32> Linkie? :)
[04:38] <grazie> LP it's mostly good. However more assistance in what package to report against would be a big improvement
[04:38] <grazie> *is
[04:39] <highvoltage> egh, I can't find it, I read it on planet ubuntu about a week ago
[04:41] <somerville32> Isn't there one specific package you're suppose to report ISO testing to?
[04:42] <somerville32> s/package/product
[04:42] <highvoltage> here's the post: http://www.ogmaciel.com/?p=321
[04:42] <highvoltage> can't remember where I saw the screenshots though
[04:43] <grazie> somerville32: yes, but when a bug is found bug report is also needed
[04:43] <kalikiana> I may say that I do like launchpad. Two drawbacks: license and random errors, but I think they've been working on the errors.
[04:44] <hyper_ch> btw, I have herd2 installed and it works good except that I was not able to run vmware
[04:44] <highvoltage> hyper_ch: it's best to test with the latest alpha, it might be fixed in herd4 now
[04:45] <highvoltage> hyper_ch: it might also be possible that you just need to install the kernal headers package, since vmware would not ship pre-compiled modules for feisty yet
[04:45] <somerville32> Xubuntu has been unable to release herd 3 and herd 4
[04:45] <hyper_ch> highvoltage: well, I haven't tested it so far again because I used the same /home as in edgy and the quicklauncher was replaced... feisty doesn't like the one from edgy and vice-versa
[04:45] <somerville32> I'd like to be able to get the release candidate out
[04:45] <highvoltage> oh wow, ok
[04:45] <grazie> rync is excellent for keeping up to date!
[04:45] <grazie> *rsync
[04:46] <somerville32> grazie: The issue is that the distro team won't release it until we can prove we've tested the ISOs
[04:46] <Jmak> somerville32: take a look at the new terminal icon, i just emailed to the list
[04:46] <somerville32> I dunno if it is because of lack of man power or lack of reports
[04:46] <grazie> somerville32: what proof do they need?
[04:47] <somerville32> Just people saying it worked
[04:47] <somerville32> Same as the other distros
[04:48] <grazie> somerville32: that can be arranged :)
[04:48] <somerville32> Awesome.
[04:48] <somerville32> Does Edubuntu have a testing team?
[04:49] <highvoltage> somerville32: it does. it's fairly loose, there's a team in LP too
[04:49] <highvoltage> somerville32: and a bunch of wiki pages for co-ordination
[04:49] <somerville32> highvoltage, Do you find it effective?
[04:49] <highvoltage> somerville32: it could be better, but so far it has worked well
[04:50] <highvoltage> somerville32: we'll need something better as edubuntu becomes more complicated
[04:50] <highvoltage> somerville32: the benefig that edubuntu has is, it uses the exact same desktop environment as ubuntu, so it gets a lot of free testing there
[04:50] <highvoltage> somerville32: i think xubuntu's testing is even a bit more work than with edubuntu
[04:50] <somerville32> The biggest thing is making sure the ISOs are tested for us
[04:50] <grazie> somerville32: I suppose what I really meant is that saying that the iso's worked can easily be faked :(
[04:51] <highvoltage> ah I see
[04:51] <j1mc> somerville32, i had a great install experience with the nightlies leading up to herd4.
[04:51] <somerville32> j1mc: Did you report that?
[04:51] <j1mc> no  :(
[04:51] <somerville32> hehe
[04:51] <somerville32> See, we need that
[04:52] <somerville32> We need to get an official testing team together maybe
[04:52] <j1mc> i'm mostly on xubuntu-user mailing list.
[04:52] <somerville32> j1mc: Would you like to head up an Xubuntu testing team?
[04:52] <j1mc> what would it entail?  are there other examples of testing teams?
[04:53] <somerville32> IT seems like you already do quite a bit of testing
[04:53] <somerville32> So you'd just need to recruit a few more people to help you out and schedule regular testing
[04:53] <somerville32> Especially just before a pre-release
[04:54] <somerville32> So that we can release an image as the pre-release
[04:54] <j1mc> sure.  i think i can do that.
[04:54] <somerville32> What platforms can you test on?
[04:54] <j1mc> just i386 right now.
[04:55] <somerville32> Ok
[04:55] <j1mc> i could get another machine pretty easily.  i volunteer for free geek chicago
[04:55] <j1mc> we use xubuntu there, so they'd be willing to donate a machine.
[04:56] <somerville32> So you'd just need to find a few dedicated individuals who could help test the other official platforms too
[04:56] <somerville32> Awesome! :)
[04:56] <j1mc> and then get them to report their results.  :)
[04:56] <j1mc> hehe
[04:57] <somerville32> I directed the testing for Herd 2 so we'll have to get together to chat ASAP.
[04:57] <somerville32> I'll pass off everything I have to you
[04:57] <j1mc> i think you set up a wiki about testing, so i'll want to look at that.
[04:58] <somerville32> You'll also want to review all the ISO qa stuff you can find on the wiki for the other derivatives too to see how we can improve our processes.
[04:58] <j1mc> i emailed you about xubuntu-docs, so you have my email address
[04:58] <somerville32> Ok, aweosme
[04:58] <somerville32> *awesome :)
[04:58] <j1mc> ok
[05:00] <j1mc> i work at a healthcare software company (just in the HR dept, though), but I know some QA people.  i can talk w/ them about what they do for QA, too.
[05:00] <somerville32> Awesome :)
[05:00] <somerville32> If things go well, your position might evolve into a more general Xubuntu QA guy if you'd like
[05:00] <somerville32> Up to you :)
[05:01] <somerville32> But for now, we need to focus on the ISO testing for upcoming Feisty Release (yea!!) :D
[05:01] <j1mc> Sounds great, somerville32 (the initial testing for Feisty, that is)  :)
[05:01] <j1mc> i'll be in touch with you
[05:02] <somerville32> Perfect.
[05:02] <somerville32> I feel much better about that now that there is someone leading that up
[05:02] <somerville32> Thanks a bunch j1mc
[05:02] <somerville32> Next on the agenda is Artwork, Jmak :)
[05:04] <highvoltage> j1mc++
[05:05] <hyper_ch> btw, I had one big problem with feisty... I have IDE and SDA drives and after the isntall everything was mixed up.... grub wasn't able to select/assign them correctly
[05:05] <j1mc> haha  j1mc++  :)
[05:05] <somerville32> j1mc: A good person to chat with is sfflaw as he heads up ubuntu-qa (which extends to Xubuntu)
[05:05] <hyper_ch> but that's not xubuntu specific
[05:06] <j1mc> thanks . . .  i'll note that.
[05:06] <somerville32> Awesome.
[05:06] <somerville32> Jmak, ping
[05:07] <j1mc> Jmak, I think the new terminal icon looks great.
[05:08] <somerville32> Jmak, Did any of the new artwork get uploaded yet?
[05:08] <j1mc> Seems like Jmak is away . . . is there another agenda item that we can go to, and then come back to artwork?
[05:09] <somerville32> Documentation
[05:09] <j1mc> Yessss  :)
[05:09] <Jmak> They are on the wike page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork/Feisty/Incoming
[05:10] <j1mc> oh, there's Jmak.  back to artwork then.
[05:10] <somerville32> But nothing has been uploaded to the repositories?
[05:11] <Jmak> as far as know none
[05:11] <somerville32> ok
[05:11] <somerville32> I'll upload some of it
[05:11] <Jmak> ok
[05:11] <somerville32> Anything else you'd like to touch on jmak?
[05:11] <j1mc> One thing I like about ubuntu's new GDM login is that the font has a bit more weight to it.  perhaps it's just bolded, but it looks more professional.
[05:12] <Jmak> We have to decide on the use of icons
[05:12] <Jmak> Tango?
[05:12] <Jmak> Dropline looks great
[05:13] <somerville32> link?
[05:14] <Jmak> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork/Feisty/Desktop/Incoming
[05:14] <cbx33> I'll give it a go
[05:14] <somerville32> cbx33, Thanks
[05:14] <somerville32> Dropline isn't bad
[05:15] <Jmak> I like it too
[05:15] <somerville32> Is it complete?
[05:15] <Jmak> The most popular icon set on the gnome look org
[05:15] <somerville32> Ok
[05:15] <Jmak> Very complete
[05:16] <j1mc> fwiw, i think the gion icon set looks great, too.
[05:16] <somerville32> :)
[05:16] <somerville32> Ok
[05:16] <somerville32> Jmak: Do you have a "package" to present yet?
[05:16] <Jmak> But that one not very complate
[05:17] <Jmak> What package?
[05:17] <somerville32> Like, you're going to have to present a package that includes all the changes you'd like to make so that we can see what it looks like
[05:17] <somerville32> And then if it gets approved, it gets implemented
[05:18] <Jmak> The artworks on the wiki are now, pretty complate
[05:20] <somerville32> It is hard to navigate and see what is decided
[05:20] <somerville32> I dunno what should be changed to accomplish what you want
[05:20] <somerville32> I just a few screenshots here and there
[05:21] <Jmak> I already sent some time ago the xubuntu.xml to the list, I hope someone saved that too
[05:21] <Jmak> From the wiki I will deleat all artworks except the final ones. Is that ok?
[05:22] <somerville32> No
[05:22] <somerville32> Please don't
[05:22] <somerville32> Create a new wiki page that clearly outlines the gtk theme engine, theme, icons, etc.
[05:22] <somerville32> Give each package a name
[05:23] <Jmak> ok
[05:23] <somerville32> And then organize it under that name
[05:23] <j1mc> that sounds like a good approach
[05:23] <somerville32> So, if there are a few "packages" that you'd like to propose
[05:23] <somerville32> You might nickname them A, B, and C
[05:24] <Jmak> all right
[05:24] <somerville32> And then you'd create a wiki page for each package and have everything related to it on that page (or linked under that page)
[05:24] <somerville32> Make sure to have a clear hierarchy when actually naming the pages
[05:24] <somerville32> ie.
[05:24] <somerville32> Xubuntu/Artwork/Proposed/A
[05:24] <somerville32> Xubuntu/Artwork/Proposed/B
[05:24] <somerville32> Xubuntu/Artwork/Proposed/C
[05:25] <Jmak> ok
[05:25] <somerville32> That way when we visit Xubuntu/Artwork/Proposed/A it shows us exactly how Xubuntu would look if we went with Option A
[05:27] <somerville32> :)
[05:27] <Jmak> sounds good
[05:27] <somerville32> Unfortunately there is a deadline
[05:28] <somerville32> Can you get this all done by the 22nd?
[05:28] <somerville32> Thats 5 days
[05:28] <Jmak> Sure I can do the weekend
[05:28] <somerville32> Ok, perfect.
[05:28] <somerville32> After 22nd, we will start voting
[05:28] <Jmak> ok
[05:29] <somerville32> March 15th is the FINAL deadline
[05:30] <somerville32> We'll be decided on the artwork at the next meeting
[05:30] <somerville32> *deciding
[05:30] <Jmak> ok
[05:30] <somerville32> So please be ready :)
[05:31] <Jmak> sounds good
[05:31] <somerville32> Ok, lets talk about Documentation
[05:31] <Jmak> Now I go and start plannning it
[05:31] <Jmak> see you next time
[05:31] <j1mc> thanks, Jmak
[05:32] <somerville32> j1mc: Re testing: Herd 5 will be released March 1st
[05:33] <somerville32> I'd really like to see Herd 5 be released via the efforts of your new team :)
[05:33] <j1mc> ok.  i'll do my best.
[05:33] <somerville32> Ok, onto Documentation
[05:34] <somerville32> We're doing better then Edgy
[05:34] <somerville32> We've seen some small updates
[05:34] <somerville32> But nothing substantial has been completed
[05:35] <j1mc> i saw your spec up.  how does that stand?
[05:35] <j1mc> i can't remember the name of it off hand.
[05:35] <somerville32> That'll have to be deferred to Feisty+1
[05:35] <somerville32> Where we'll really have to pull up our socks
[05:35] <somerville32> For the rest of this release, we should focus on improving current documentation
[05:36] <somerville32> ie. removing/updating outdated info
[05:36] <somerville32> And adding in new stuff that is applicable
[05:36] <j1mc> i've been filing just a few bug reports, but would like to file some more.
[05:36] <somerville32> We simple do not have time to do the big overhaul that the other derivatives have done with their documentation.
[05:36] <hyper_ch> btw, how do you select the appz that get added to the standard install?
[05:37] <somerville32> seeds
[05:38] <somerville32> j1mc: Are you interested in helping with documentation?
[05:38] <j1mc> i am, but i don't know docbook xml.  i have the current ubuntu-docs files installed locally via subversion, though.
[05:38] <somerville32> It is pretty easy
[05:39] <somerville32> It isn't anything special
[05:39] <somerville32> I think we should organize a documentation sprint
[05:39] <j1mc> yeah . . .  i think that if i'm going to be doing the QA stuff, that i shouldn't try to take on too much writing of documentation.
[05:39] <somerville32> Unfortunately, with me being in the hospital currently, I dunno when we could
[05:39] <somerville32> j1mc: *nods*
[05:39] <j1mc> my regular job is going to be pretty crazy between now and the end of the month.
[05:40] <somerville32> :D
[05:40] <j1mc> i plan to do a major bug reporting day, though.  checking links, looking for items that are outdated, etc.
[05:40] <somerville32> Alrighty, so we'll try to set a date for a sprint
[05:40] <somerville32> Where we all get together on IRC and work on the documentation
[05:40] <somerville32> We can discuss the date on the xubuntu-devel and -users mailing list
[05:41] <j1mc> would it be good to have the bugs filed prior to our sprint?
[05:41] <somerville32> We'll certainly review the bugs at the sprint
[05:41] <somerville32> So it would be a good way to create a todo list if you'd like
[05:42] <somerville32> Infact, that would be a wonderful idea
[05:42] <somerville32> It would make it easy for new people to find things to do
[05:42] <j1mc> yes... it would help to focus our efforts
[05:42] <somerville32> Alrighty
[05:42] <somerville32> This has been a VERY productive meeting :)
[05:43] <j1mc> ok . . . i have tomorrow and monday off from work, so look for a bunch of bug reports from me over the next few days.
[05:43] <somerville32> highvoltage, What do you call your guy's qa team?
[05:43] <somerville32> :D
[05:43] <somerville32> j1mc++
[05:43] <j1mc> haha
[05:45] <j1mc> is that it for documentation?
[05:46] <somerville32> I guess so :)
[05:46] <j1mc> ok, well, we'll get the bugs filed, and then . . . do you want to set a tentative date for the doc-sprint?
[05:47] <somerville32> Well, I dunno when I'll be discharged from the hospital and I'd really like to be at the sprint
[05:47] <somerville32> Not to say that you can't hold it without me
[05:47] <j1mc> no, i think it would be best if you were there.
[05:48] <somerville32> Alright
[05:48] <somerville32> We can discuss it on the mailing list and I'll try my best to get there.
[05:48] <j1mc> ok.  good luck getting better!
[05:48] <somerville32> Thanks :)
[05:48] <somerville32> If there isn't anything else...
[05:49] <j1mc> thanks, somerville32
[05:55] <somerville32> btw
[05:55] <somerville32> Documentation freeze is March 8th
[05:55] <somerville32> Thats 19 days away
[05:58] <j1mc> ok.  i'll be out of town on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th
[05:58] <j1mc> before that = work craziness + QA craziness.  i'll file a bunch of bugs this weekend.
[05:59] <somerville32> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing
[06:00] <hyper_ch> somerville32: do you use vmware?
[06:00] <somerville32> nope
[06:00] <j1mc> somerville32, thanks for the link
[06:00] <somerville32> j1mc: I just created it.
[06:00] <somerville32> You'll want to fill in the blanks
[06:00] <j1mc> yep
[06:00] <j1mc> still, thanks.
[06:02] <somerville32> j1mc: What is your launchpad id?
[06:02] <j1mc> jwcampbell
[06:03] <j1mc> yes, that's correct
[06:04] <somerville32> Ok
[06:04] <somerville32> You're now an administrator of the xubuntu-testers team
[06:04] <j1mc> thanks . . .
[06:04] <j1mc> that was quick
[06:05] <hyper_ch> if someone could check vmware... that would be great :)
[06:06] <somerville32> j1mc: Please make sure that you stick to the wiki hierarchy
[06:07] <somerville32> So, there are a few pages under Testing that you'll want to move around
[06:07] <somerville32> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Dapper <-- Dapper Testing Results
[06:07] <j1mc> ok
[06:07] <somerville32> You might move that to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Archive/Dapper
[06:07] <somerville32> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Current <-- Herd 2
[06:07] <somerville32> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Short <-- Short test
[06:08] <j1mc> if i have questions, i'll be in touch.
[06:09] <somerville32> Have fun! :)
[06:09] <somerville32> You're going to want to have clear hierarchies
[06:10] <somerville32> Awesome.
[06:10] <j1mc> hehehe . . .
[06:12] <somerville32> I'm sure you can
[06:19] <highvoltage> somerville32: it's called edubuntu-testers
[06:19] <highvoltage> (sorry for late reply, had to fetch my mom from work and take her home)