[12:03] <ompaul> unop, your missing the point
[12:04] <unop> ompaul,  you're not giving me much to work on in understanding why
[12:04] <phaidros> ompaul, yes would be great if you'd have an example !!
[12:04] <unop> yes, examples puleeeese
[12:04] <ompaul> go help in #ubuntu in a ubuntu centric way as it was phrased and I will find some
[12:05] <ompaul> then I will ping you both here
[12:05] <phaidros> ok. we can meet here then again :) thanks for diggin into, ompaul!
[12:05] <unop> ompaul,  so you dont have anything concrete then .. and you're waiting for something to crop up?
[12:06] <nalioth> unop: he has the same info as me, we don't keep this stuff on file, we just know that it's happened repeatedly
[12:07] <unop> nalioth,  ok, so these are bugs then? what has this got to do with unix in it's normal operations???
[12:07] <ompaul> unop, actually tell you what screw this for a game of soldiews
[12:07] <nalioth> unop: Ubuntu is not "unix in its normal operation", it's Ubuntu in its normal operation
[12:08] <nalioth> if you want unix, use slackware
[12:08] <phaidros> nalioth, thats cynical again ;)
[12:08] <ompaul> no use FreeBSD
[12:09] <unop> i do use freeBSD .. infact i sit on it right now
[12:09] <ompaul> my work has me using four different *nx versions
[12:09] <ompaul> but I will condence that into one
[12:10] <phaidros> so no examples for breaking things with root on *buntu ??
[12:10] <unop> ompaul,  4 unices. and yet i find it hard you cant convince me that downsides to enabling root on ubuntu exist apart from "#ubuntu" policy and "works for me"
[12:11] <ompaul> http://archives.free.net.ph/message/20070131.082448.b477d880.en.html
[12:11] <ompaul> unop, - the fact is this I gave up trying to run ubuntu as debian or freebsd a long time ago
[12:11] <ompaul> that is one person on my search
[12:11] <ompaul> and having this on file as the op says is not what we do
[12:12] <ompaul> we keep working solutions
[12:13] <ompaul> http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/showthread.php?t=451478
[12:13] <ompaul> still loooking for the lamp issue
[12:18] <unop> ompaul,  both these examples are inconclusive and on random sites (is there nothing in ubuntu's database that is convincing?) .. in the first example, the guy edits the shadow file , well, hey guess what, you expect things like this to break if you do that (which is why visudo was written)..
[12:18] <phaidros> are these examples occuring regularly ?
[12:18] <ompaul> google and check it out people are making a mess of stuff
[12:18] <unop> the second guy doesnt seem to know what he is doing and could have done anything apart from issue "passwd root" properly .. i'm not buying these as bugs
[12:18] <ompaul> but my query is not right
[12:18] <unop> ompaul,  you are an op right?
[12:19] <ompaul> so they tell me
[12:19] <ompaul> it appears to be so
[12:19] <nalioth> looks can be deceiving
[12:20] <ompaul> that is true
[12:20] <nalioth> then again, unop should know better than to show off
[12:20] <unop> so you've been in these channels for a few years atleast -- you must have definitely come across severe and conclusive implications of enabling the root account .. thats what i am after really
[12:21] <unop> nalioth,  now i feel this is getting personal -- in no way am i showing off, i'm just getting to the bottom of this (with no apparent help from you)
[12:23] <phaidros> I have to second unop, this is more a rant here, than a helping out with facts betweeen experienced users / ops
[12:23] <ompaul> unop, and I have megs of logs how do you suggest I search them?
[12:24] <nalioth> actually that is a good idea
[12:24] <nalioth> !logs
[12:24] <ubotu> Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs - See also !OpenWeek
[12:24] <unop> ompaul,  only if i can find something conclusive where user error has been ruled out and i can readily replicate the problem .. otherwise no
[12:24] <ompaul> phaidros, the other view is that the question is that four people are not helping that could be and that annoys me
[12:24] <nalioth> you guys can search #ubuntu logs there for the past years
[12:26] <phaidros> ompaul, I'm elping two users in private chats right now
[12:26] <phaidros> tsss
[12:26] <ompaul> well here is fun I am not
[12:26] <phaidros> nalioth, I am getting annoyed
[12:26] <phaidros> ompaul, nalioth sry, but you guys have been 0 (ZERO) help in a understandable question
[12:26] <phaidros> I'll go and help ppl now.
[12:27] <nalioth> phaidros: we are not devs, we are general help. we've both seen this problem, but unfortunately we don't catalogue every bobble on the radar
[12:27] <phaidros> if one of you might come up with a reasonable base for sorting facts on root problem with e.g. apache or mysql i'd be very glad to hear
[12:27] <nalioth> to know it exists is enough for us
[12:27] <unop> 30 searches later on launchpad and still nothing - http://www.google.com/search?num=100&complete=1&hl=en&q=site%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Flaunchpad.net+sudo+%22passwd+root%22&btnG=Search
[12:27] <ompaul> why lp
[12:27] <ompaul> it is not a bug
[12:28] <nalioth> no, Ubuntu was made that way.
[12:28] <ompaul> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/kubuntu-2006-05-11.html
[12:28] <phaidros> anyway, I'll go on with working, this is time waste. sry guys
[12:28] <ompaul> that is not an example
[12:28] <ompaul> that is one result I got
[12:28] <ompaul> site http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/
[12:29] <unop> ompaul,  ok what am i looking for here?
[12:29] <ompaul> you are not use that as search criteria
[12:29] <ompaul> or do this wait until we get someone who can find us an exact example
[12:30] <unop> why lp? because thats where the complaints first start appearing (or as so far i have noticed)
[12:30] <ompaul> ehh better to check lists
[12:30] <ompaul> lp is only where you get specs and the like
[12:30] <ompaul> lp is a plan to build and real bugs
[12:30] <ompaul> having a root password is not a bug - it is a user error
[12:31] <unop> ompaul,  thats not what that google page says -- it's gone into the bugs.launchpad.net
[12:31] <unop> ompaul,  thats what you say tho and i outrightly reject .. it is not an error, it's just a preference
[12:32] <nalioth> unop: it is the way Ubuntu is made.
[12:32] <ompaul> well neither of us calls it a bug and bugs go in lp
[12:32] <ompaul> so looking in lp is wrong
[12:33] <unop> nalioth, yes, ubuntu comes that way but, are people not allowed to change preferences now? is that it? is that what you are saying?
[12:34] <nalioth> it is not a preference in the default Ubuntu
[12:34] <nalioth> if you want a root account, use the custom install and have one
[12:35] <unop> i don't even find other linux users complain or laugh about the fact ubuntu breaks when enabling root (because that is what they'd do almost automatically)
[12:35] <nalioth> most linux users give sudo a try and continue using it
[12:36] <nalioth> if they do not, they are knowledgable and advanced enough to fix their own problems
[12:36] <unop> nalioth,  as I have done too -- without any custom install
[12:36] <nalioth> #ubuntu is for helping new users (users who have never used a computer or are just here from Windows(tm))
[12:37] <unop> nalioth,  and most windows users rest in the comfort of having their "Administrator" account enabled and ready to use when needed
[12:37] <unop> nalioth,  which is why the first question they as is "how do i enable superuser" .. and believe it or not, we tell them to use !sudo
[12:38] <nalioth> unop: most windows user have no clue what an account is
[12:39] <unop> nalioth,  thats not true -- a lot of power users know exactly what accounts are, file permissions , ACLs, process privileges, network security etc (they have to know or end up knowing about them, they use insecure systems)
[12:41] <ompaul> and one side of the sign is gold and the other silver
[12:43] <unop> anyway, this is drifting off-topic now .. the very reason you brougt me in here was to perhaps "educate" me about sudo on ubuntu -- but i'm unresolved and dont think i'll find an answer anytime soon -- do let me know when you guys find something concrete and replicable, i'm forever interested .. ciao :)
[12:44] <nalioth> unop: my point is: the problem exists.
[12:44] <nalioth> unfortunately i do not have every problem i've seen catalogued
[12:44] <unop> nalioth,  or so you claim and arent definite, thats my challenge
[12:45] <nalioth> unop: we've both seen it repeatedly in #ubuntu
[12:45] <ompaul> unop, I'll turn one up maybe not tonight but I will
[12:45] <nalioth> myself and ompaul
[12:45] <unop> nalioth,  but surely you'd know or vaguely remember what one of the problems is
[12:45] <unop> nalioth,  again, so you say and cannot readily show me
[12:45] <ompaul> unop, I can't tell you what is wrong with automatix - orhter than it brokes stuff
[12:46] <nalioth> i remember that all the users had enabled the root password
[12:46] <ompaul> I can tell you that it used to be the worst written software I ever read
[12:47] <ompaul> unop, when you have dealt with the outcome of other peoples lack of doing the standard thing (if you hang around that long)
[12:47] <unop> ompaul,  we arent discussing automatix here tho -- whether or not it works, doesnt work, breaks systems doesnt have anything to do with root
[12:47] <ompaul> it is similar
[12:47] <unop> i dont think so .. not one bit similar infact
[12:47] <nalioth> unop: automatix does things in a unix way, not an Ubuntu way.  and Ubuntu invarabily breaks.
[12:48] <unop> i'm not interested in automatix
[12:48] <ompaul> unop, as a paradigm it is comparible
[12:49] <unop> again, i beg to differ and request you put it aside .. i have no contest with regards to automatix
[12:49] <nalioth> unop: doing things the "unix way" or "the debian way" break Ubuntu
[12:51] <unop> nalioth,  as i have seen , indeed .. and it's one of the downsides to ubuntu (i personally believe) .. but again, it has little to do with root on ubuntu
[12:52] <nalioth> Ubuntu was not designed with an active root account in mind (by default) when you twist the design of something, do not expect it to work well
[12:53] <ompaul> to change the subject do you like big hondas
[12:53] <ompaul> I have wasted 2 hours in this channel
[12:54] <ompaul> make that one
[12:54] <unop> my argument from the start has been that _it does work well_ with no downsides, you say there are, i say where, you say somewhere but i have seen .. :(
[12:54] <ompaul> well why don't you quit arguing and put in the irc logs and read the 1300 or so entries with !root in them
[12:54] <ompaul> and see the pain
[12:54] <ompaul> each one being a day
[12:56] <ompaul> and you never said if you liked big hondas
[12:56] <unop> ompaul,  bahh, thats not the issue .. if you contend with me that NEW users fumble, please don't, i know what NEW users are like and _never ever ever_ suggest enabling root .. the _only reason_ i am here is to know the technical details of this preference, _that is all_
[12:57] <nalioth> it's in the logs
[12:57] <nalioth> many times
[12:57] <ompaul> read them
[12:57] <ompaul> have a nice night I am going to bed
[12:57] <ompaul> it is seconds away from midnight
[12:38] <Apollyon_> I have issues with firefox/mozilla and verysign. I am trying to make a payment, but verysign does not accept it. And if I do it with IE it accepts. So ... ???
[12:40] <nothlit> You should ask in #ubuntu, but anyways you need elaborate more on whats the issue
[12:40] <Apollyon_> I asked this question in #mozilla, #firefox, #ubuntu, #ubuntu-offtopic But no answer
[12:40] <nothlit> Anyways, you can always run ie under wine
[12:41] <nothlit> i wouldn't see why it wouldn't work under FF unless it requires active x
[12:43] <Apollyon_> nothlit: The issue is: I fill a form, give all the infos and credit card number and then click in submit then verysing declines the deal. It happens with mozilla and firefox. But if I do it in IE it accepts!
[12:44] <nothlit> i'm sure nobody knows what you mean by verisign declining
[12:44] <Apollyon_> I don't have window$ in my machine though. I used to, but now no dual-boot at all
[12:45] <Apollyon_> nothlit: Verysign declining is verysign don't accept the payment deal.
[12:46] <nothlit> http://www.tatanka.com.br/ies4linux/page/Main_Page
[12:46] <nothlit> use that, otherwise be more explicit
[12:52] <Apollyon_> nothlit: What do you want to know more? I have been very explicit :-)
[12:53] <nothlit> just use ies4linux then...
[12:54] <Apollyon_> So, how to install that active x in firefox. Is it possible?
[01:49] <nothlit> yes it sort of is i think
[01:49] <nothlit> theres an emulation sort of thing, and also one that uses ie's
[02:21] <Apollyon_> nothlit: Could you point me there?
[03:13] <soundray> Hi novice
[03:13] <novice> hi
[03:13] <novice> can u plz guide me??
[03:13] <soundray> First of all, have you got any firefox plugins or extensions that you want to keep?
[03:14] <novice> forget abt dat....... i will do dat again......no  pro...
[03:14] <soundray> novice: okay. Have you got a terminal open?
[03:14] <novice> yup
[03:14] <soundray> 'ls /var/cache/apt/archives/mozilla-firefox_*' -- how many files?
[03:15] <novice> "no such file or directory"
[03:15] <soundray> How about 'ls /var/cache/apt/archives/*firefox*'
[03:16] <novice> next??
[03:16] <soundray> Any lines from that?
[03:16] <novice> it is just some arrow mark.....
[03:16] <novice> *showing
[03:16] <soundray> novice: Hit Ctrl-C, and don't enter the quotes :)
[03:17] <novice> sorry......
[03:17] <soundray> novice: that's fine. It's sometimes easier for me to show you where the command begins and ends with quotes.
[03:18] <soundray> novice: have you tried again without the quote?
[03:18] <novice> ya..... i'm getting some lines
[03:18] <novice> 4 to 5 lines
[03:18] <soundray> novice: give me one that looks like it's a recent 1.5 package of firefox
[03:19] <novice> /var/cache/apt/archives/firefox_1.5.dfsg+1.5.0.9-0ubuntu0.5.10.1_i386.deb
[03:19] <novice> /var/cache/apt/archives/firefox-gnome-support_1.5.dfsg+1.5.0.9-0ubuntu0.5.10.1_i386.deb
[03:19] <soundray> novice: okay
[03:20] <soundray> novice: remove the folder with the failed upgrade attempt: 'sudo rm -rf /usr/lib/firefox'
[03:20] <novice> done......
[03:20] <soundray> Now, do a 'sudo dpkg -i /var/cache/apt/archives/firefox_1.5.dfsg+1.5.0.9-0ubuntu0.5.10.1_i386.deb'
[03:21] <soundray> novice: it'll probably complain about some error...
[03:21] <novice> no..... it didn't show any error
[03:22] <novice> it showed dat setting up firefox.....
[03:22] <novice> now asking for next command......
[03:22] <soundray> novice: it should have recreated the folder. Check with 'ls /var/lib/firefox'
[03:22] <novice> no such file or directory
[03:23] <soundray> Sorry, my bad
[03:23] <soundray> novice: it should have recreated the folder. Check with 'ls /usr/lib/firefox'
[03:23] <novice> yup........ done....
[03:24] <novice> now can i start my firefox...
[03:24] <soundray> novice: to get 2.0, check out this page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FirefoxNewVersion
[03:25] <soundray> Note it's better to keep 1.5 around
[03:25] <novice> Y  dude??
[03:26] <soundray> novice: that page will tell you
[03:26] <soundray> novice: you can use 2.0 for browsing, of course
[03:26] <novice> k.... i have some more doubts...... can i ask U??
[03:26] <soundray> Of course
[03:27] <novice> in order copy the folders present on the desktop i used nautilus command ...... instead can't i use any command line
[03:27] <novice> i tried with sudo cp -r.......
[03:28] <novice> but it didn't work
[03:28] <soundray> novice: I don't quite follow. You've got a folder on the desktop that you want to move elsewhere?
[03:29] <novice> i want to copy into root directory
[03:30] <novice> for example i downloaded firefox 2.0 folder on to my desktop then i copied dat folder into root directory
[03:30] <novice> can' t i use any command line
[03:31] <soundray> novice: there are two directories that are called root directories. One is /root (which is the root user's home), the other is '/', which holds everything else (like /home, /etc, /usr etc.)
[03:31] <soundray> novice: you shouldn't copy your stuff to either of those.
[03:32] <soundray> The best place to put your stuff would be your home directory. Type 'echo $HOME' to see what it's called.
[03:32] <novice> if i want to use then wat command should i use
[03:32] <novice> echo $HOME
[03:32] <soundray> 'mv Desktop/foldername $HOME'
[03:34] <novice> no dude ........ wat i mean is ........ i downloaded some apple icons...... now i want them to put in /usr/share/pixmaps..... frm desktop...
[03:34] <novice> wat command shld  i use to do dis function??
[03:34] <novice> i tried with sudo cp -r ...... but didn't work
[03:35] <novice> so i used nautilus.....
[03:36] <soundray> novice: if you do 'sudo cp file.xpm /usr/share/pixmaps/', that should work
[03:36] <novice> no dude it didn't work..... it showed missing destination files
[03:36] <soundray> Oh, you probably haven't changed to the directory where your stuff is located
[03:37] <novice> i did dat also....
[03:37] <soundray> novice: does 'ls /usr/share/pixmaps/' return lots of filenames?
[03:38] <novice> k........ wait.... i think there shld be gap b\w file name and destination...... rite??
[03:38] <novice> is dat a pro??
[03:38] <soundray> Yes, that would be essential ;)
[03:39] <novice> ya....... dat was the mistake....
[03:39] <novice> k.... thank u very much......
[03:40] <novice> can u temme briefly wat u did to restore my firefox?? i just wanna know... if u have time...??
[03:42] <soundray> No problem -- just give me a minute
[03:44] <soundray> Okay, back. Still here?
[03:45] <novice> can u temme briefly wat u did to restore my firefox
[03:45] <soundray> We looked in your package cache, /var/cache/apt/archive, for a recent firefox package
[03:45] <soundray> Then we installed that, bypassing the apt mechanism.
[03:46] <soundray> This restored your botched /usr/lib/firefox
[03:46] <soundray> dpkg is the program that apt or synaptic also calls in order to do actual installations.
[03:47] <soundray> dpkg is sometimes more powerful when you're problem-solving.
[03:47] <soundray> Think of synaptic as the Swiss army knife, and of dpkg as the scalpel ;)
[03:47] <novice> ya.... i have observed that ....... many times ppl use dpkg to solve the pro
[03:49] <novice> k..... thank u very much dude..... will u be in this server at this time daily??
[03:49] <soundray> It varies
[03:49] <soundray> I'm usually later in the day
[03:50] <soundray> But there are usually helpful people around. If you ask and don't get a good answer straight away, it's a good idea to ask again after an hour or so
[03:50] <novice> its k..... i will try to catch u daily ;)
[03:50] <soundray> because new people keep logging on
[03:51] <novice> ya ....... i have found many guys who help when i'm in trouble..
[03:51] <soundray> BTW, have you considered upgrading to Dapper?
[03:52] <novice> ya.... i will try it today night...
[03:52] <soundray> Good luck
[03:52] <novice> thanx....
[03:53] <Gunirus> novice: Good luck
[03:53] <novice> gunirus: thanx....