=== lizardking [n=Miranda@host84-124-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [12:18] boom boom :D [12:18] troy_s, ping [12:29] troy_s, pushing some revisions to bzr... should be done soon === coz_ [n=coz_@pool-68-162-162-84.pitt.east.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [12:32] ok.. its pushed [12:34] afternoon coz_ -imoto xD [12:35] darkmatter, evening guy [12:35] coz_ I know you hate the slab and all... but have you seen the current cairo lovin' WIP version2? [12:36] darkmatter, no I haven't however there was another verison of slab i saw that was outstanding I forget the name of it [12:36] but suse slab sucks [12:36] link [12:37] http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=397838022&size=o [12:37] nope don't like that one either [12:38] gnome-main-menu version 2... but for the life of me cant figure out the changes in the theme format [12:39] coz_ if you mean the USP I'll kill ya'... that bloody thing is bloated and an affront to usability -_- [12:39] does it work well with the buttons? I found myself adding a link to the home folder in the previous one [12:39] on the panel [12:39] andreasn, yup.. works nice... [12:39] darkmatter, slab is for children to learn linux as far as i am concerned.. it has no real place on an adult system [12:40] darkmatter: On glory? [12:40] you can show all your gtkbookmarks too [12:40] darkmatter: cool. I tried slab in order to test some 32x32 icons and got stuck [12:40] I just disabled it in gconf cause it makes the menu fscking huge [12:41] andreasn, but its not a clean hack (yet).. I had to manually install some of the files due to the svn branch being incomplete... but I'm working on a proper build [12:41] troy_s, yup [12:42] coz_... its not an ideal solution in terms of efficency.. but its cleaner navigation than *shudder* menus ;) [12:43] I loath and despise menus [12:43] darkmatter: Have you seen raster's video in e? [12:43] its bloody amazing and answers a lot of questions regarding xcomposite etc. [12:43] troy_s, which vid?? he has several [12:43] He is a bloody bright guy. [12:43] yup [12:43] The one from the linux presentation recently. [12:43] ahhh yup [12:44] It's too bad many of the e zealots are pimply little pricks who need to have their asses kicked. [12:44] I'm curios about Gimmie, that seems to be a interesting approach [12:44] andreasn, tried gimme on beryl didn't work for me [12:44] troy_s, http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=395190585&size=o <-- current svn greatness [12:45] wtf is that?!? [12:45] e? [12:45] andreasn, gimmie is cool.. but the applet version has some serious focus bugs [12:45] geezus. [12:45] troy_s, yup [12:45] darkmatter: Is that your desky? [12:45] ANIMATED ICONS! [12:45] yup [12:45] thats mye install [12:45] cvs rocks [12:45] Yeah we shoudl bloody collaborate on an e design pattern [12:46] we could probably really clobber a home run [12:46] it has ++everything++ that i have griped about missing from gnome etc [12:46] troy_s, whats really amazing is how fast it is even with all the bling [12:46] darkmatter: You running edgy, and if so, what is the best way to compile from CVS? the last time i tried it, it was a nightmare. [12:46] darkmatter: Yeah, that video has the reasoning in it... [12:46] less overheads to calls to xcomposite [12:47] troy_s... scriptie [12:47] I'll grab a linky [12:47] easy e? [12:47] easy_e17.sh [12:47] I just finished the bloody strokework for u2... i could use some compiling time [12:47] wallpaper is a drag. [12:48] i need to throw myself into a kwwii coma next to fuddle with grads and such. i don't know if i have it in me. [12:48] http://omicron.homeip.net/projects/ [12:48] err [12:48] http://omicron.homeip.net/projects/easy_e17/easy_e17.sh [12:48] brb [12:49] e17? [12:49] thanks darkmatter [12:49] coz_ enlightenment [12:49] yuk tried that on sabayon did n't like that either who is designing this stuff? :) [12:49] watch the video if you want to see its ability. [12:49] troy_s, no never id dlike it [12:50] erm... it is the most versatile, lean, etc window manager available [12:50] you need to apply your artist cap and see past the defaults [12:50] well maybe so [12:50] it is a helluva designer dream [12:50] but it looks terrible [12:50] i know you can change it but [12:50] so does ubuntu... that doesn't stop you. [12:50] lol [12:50] I love ubuntu [12:50] :) [12:51] ubuntu's look? [12:51] are you bonkers? [12:51] troy_s, well I like the look of gnome yes it is simple doesn't get in the way and it is logical [12:51] yes... try white e17 [12:51] no [12:51] no way :) [12:51] (although it is a bit white sterile... very minimalist) [12:52] No clunky 2 pixel bevels etc. [12:52] it is a very very very well designed window manager. [12:52] Although again, the defaults leave a little to be desired. [12:53] troy_s well maybe so I know darkmatter likes it as well, but i thought fluxbox was nicer [12:53] more simple [12:53] if that is the correct name of it "_ [12:53] Not a chance [12:53] coz_... flux box isnt a shell/DE though.... window managers dont count :P [12:54] fluxbox isn't even close to the simplicity of e [12:54] darkmatter, ok [12:54] watch that video to see the memory differences too. [12:54] still I like gnome with beryl that is all I need to get work done [12:54] It really is the future... [12:54] beryl is a clunky nightmare hack. [12:54] coz_ e may be the god of bling... but it has incredibly clean code [12:54] sorry to sound rude, but it is true [12:54] troy_s, dude no way it works really well [12:54] e does it _properly_ [12:54] flux is fugly for something so simple [12:55] as in the code is fugly [12:55] darkmatter, well my experience with all of them was on sabayon which gives you the opportunity to use any one fo them I liked fluxbox the best [12:56] but Ill tell you waht i will go back into ababyon andtry it for more than 5 minutes :) [12:56] if i change my mind i will tell you ") [12:56] coz_... look at the code for beryl.... its really dirty duct tape workarounds that dont fix problems... they just hide them... kinda like ms does in windows [12:56] darkmatter, yeah I know I have read that but beryl is nice none theless [12:57] they plaster a bunch of fugly patches in multiple layers and call it a fork... rofl [12:57] Yep. [12:57] compiz is to slow in new things [12:57] It really is a kludge because the lower level architecture hasn't been thought through like Raster has. [12:57] Check out the demo with six videos playing at differing levels of translucency to see how elegant his work is. [12:57] well quinn lives just 20 minutes from me so I have to support beryl :) [12:58] bah... silliness [12:58] :P [12:58] Quinn should rethink his approach. [12:58] i do have to say that they contacted me to redo the beryl icons at the last minute, got 90 % of them done and then they didn't use them [12:58] if quinn livd 20 minutes from me I'd head on over and bitch slap him for beryl -_- [12:58] It really is riding a wave that will drive things into the ditch. [12:58] lol [12:58] lol [12:59] We need to seriously consider the long term effects of relying on 3rd party closed drivers [12:59] darkmatter, well guy come on... I have used both beryl and compiz, and you were the one who convinced me to switch to beryl [12:59] it is an ethical, semantic, and logical nightmare. [12:59] troy_s, I prefer closed drivers myself [01:00] as wellas closed apps [01:00] eek [01:00] compiz is slow atm and not the best because the low level stuff is still being worked on... but its being done in a proper manner.. lots of design.. not freaky version bumps from patching [01:00] i want quality from payed programmers [01:00] coz_ that is an arcane and obsolete manner of thinking. [01:00] troy_s, perhaps but realisitc [01:00] Not even close. [01:01] Many free software developers get paid. [01:01] Many pieces of free software code are infinitely better in architectural design than any closed source equivalent. [01:01] troy_s, the day an open source app matches photoshop i will agree with you [01:01] Photoshop is a completely limited application. [01:01] coz_, nope... I do like proprietary good to an extent... but really... if you want closed do it the novell way [01:01] With a very small target base. [01:01] In the end, output is output. Use what you wish. [01:02] initial dev in a closed enviroment so random patches dont frak things up [01:02] then one the project is mature enough [01:02] dump the sources to svn [01:02] troy_s, well yes but it offers many options that cannot be found in other apps especially open source [01:02] Photoshop has really stunk for a number of years... apparently you misremember the entire era when _all_ of their plugins failed to work in the 8bit per channel to 16 bit per channel migration. [01:02] etc. [01:02] I am in a bad mood also so I may just play devil's advocate here ") [01:02] coz_ and you need to look at imagemagick [01:02] or graphicsmagick [01:02] troy_s, yeah I know but I like gui [01:03] as the algs in those two apps simply kill photos to piss. [01:03] try side by each blurs etc. [01:03] you will see what i mean. [01:03] coz_, you waant scary.. look at the "sources" fo emerald [01:03] _ONE_ file [01:03] o_O [01:03] darkmatter, that one I can really believe emerald is really slow [01:03] querky [01:03] they are all moot considering they _rely_ on closed drivers, and that defeats the purpose. [01:04] troy_s, you mean like nvidia or something? [01:04] coz_, quinn has no respect for any kind of code standards.. and he's a stubborn lesbian to boot [01:04] espeically when raster has explained the rather logical and well thought out approach. [01:04] lol [01:04] darkmatter you are making me laugh out loud. [01:04] coz_: yes... nvidia is a blight on free software [01:04] troy_s, lol [01:04] darkmatter, well I am just angry they made me redo the beryl icons and then not use them [01:04] as is ati (hopefully amd will rectify that) [01:05] ati will never catch up [01:05] coz_ you are kidding right? [01:05] troy_s, well i hope not I love nividia [01:05] lol [01:05] ") [01:05] your allies are questionable. [01:06] plus... emerald themes should be handleed like metacity or xfwm4... an emerald folder in the theme dir [01:06] Rather like getting in bed with the devil... but to each their own. [01:06] troy_s, lol [01:06] i am not a foss guy [01:06] by any standard [01:06] If you care about those artsy notions of free and democratic societies, you are obliged to be. [01:06] troy_s, thats where I've met coz_!!!! he's the toon saddam insane from southpark! [01:06] Read some of Stallman's work and get back to me. [01:07] Lol. [01:07] LOL [01:07] bad coz_!!! you made the devil cry! [01:07] if someone said gimp is free so which do you want photoshop or gimp ... i would go out and by photoshop [01:07] Gimp is archaic [01:07] has nothing to do with FOSS [01:07] or the principles [01:07] understatement [01:07] For most users however, gimp would probably suffice [01:07] my favorite applicatin is corel painter [01:07] troy_s, gimp would be great... if they'd actually implement a new ui and a new backend ;) [01:08] (considering they are shelling out 200 for a crimped version of photoshop elements) [01:08] I had contact with the origianl develpers great guys [01:08] darkmatter: I think it simply requires inkscape to supercede it [01:08] was going to buy some of their code until they sold it to corel [01:08] with some node based editing. [01:08] actually, inkscape with a tablet and using the calligraphy tool renders some bloody incredible illustration work. [01:08] coz_, I wanna work for apple!!!! [01:08] >_> [01:08] it is fast as hell too. [01:08] darkmatter, traitor [01:09] bah [01:09] darkmatter: there is this interface professional dude that is working on gimp now though, and um, there is GEGL [01:09] too bad steve jobs didn't die when he had his chance [01:09] he is worse than gates ever was -- and drove his company into the paltry 4% from 97% market share. [01:09] NeXT FTW! [01:09] at least troy_s and I agree about apple [01:09] steve jobs is the snake oil salesman thief of the modern era. [01:10] AMEN [01:10] andreasn: cegl is amazing stuff [01:10] troy_s, true... but hes damn good at it! [01:10] :D [01:10] if only it would mature to a point of getting attention. [01:10] so is bill gates for all that [01:10] not even close to steve jobs [01:10] and no, he isn't good at it [01:10] he drove his company into the ground [01:10] well couldn't think of anyother comparison really [01:10] he is a clever charlatan [01:10] got fired from his own company [01:10] the best kind! [01:10] lol [01:11] and returns as the salvation somehow... go figure. [01:11] worse yet, he is probably the greatest peddler of drm/crm/nightmare out there. (although he is backpeddling on that too now... lol) [01:11] troy_s, be would have been the new apple if it wasnt fer the snooty "offer me more money!" attitude during negotiations [01:11] look at what he did to xerox in the early years... he is nothing more than a low level thief. [01:12] thats the only reason apple approached jobs [01:12] yeah be turned 400 million into 11 million. [01:12] amazing eh? [01:12] be was offered 400 million iirc from apple for their code base, and then sold to palm for 11. [01:12] lol [01:12] on a side note dark [01:13] what is your experience with the underlying architecture for themeing in e? [01:13] and does entrance work now? [01:13] the deb file i installed had a borked entranced [01:13] heh... at least os x is better than vista... but the whole "buy our hardware which is freakishly overpriced... cause even if you own osx... installing it on non apple hardware is theft!!!!!" [01:14] is eww [01:15] all of apple is eww to anyone with half a grey cell. [01:15] darkmatter: Does exhibit get compiled with easy e? [01:15] or do i need to pass that as a param? [01:16] troy_s, yup [01:16] its in the list [01:17] so is entropy and extract and ephoto and emphasis [01:17] though the new ephoto and emphasis arent really functional atm [01:17] unfamiliar with emphasis [01:18] its a rb like client for mpd [01:18] did you see his 'rage' demo? [01:18] and where the hell can you get rage? [01:18] nope [01:18] that was pretty slick. [01:18] raster's media center hack [01:18] ohh... that thing [01:18] yup [01:18] didnt know the name [01:19] it looks awesome [01:19] feck it bogged out [01:19] evas chunked out [01:20] configure.in:88: error: possibly undefined macro: AC_PATH_GENERIC [01:20] If this token and others are legitimate, please use m4_pattern_allow. [01:20] See the Autoconf documentation. === darkmatter feeds coz_ beryl and waits for the inevitable hospitalization to incur [01:20] :O [01:20] cute [01:21] darkmatter: when did you compile last? [01:21] ") [01:21] troy_s, three days ago [01:21] grr feck [01:22] Now Playing: Sucker Train Blues by Velvet Revolver from Contraband (0:12/4:27) [01:22] darkmatter: Does easy take care of all the depends? [01:22] troy_s, no... you need to install them [01:22] one sec [01:23] dammit [01:23] that is probably it then... hopefully it is a retro m4 [01:23] that i need to bump up [01:25] troy_s, http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=533202&postcount=1 [01:25] danke [01:25] np [01:32] damn i actually looked at that link [01:33] edge is compiling now. [01:34] have to take a break after bein gin #beryl be back [01:34] troy_s, http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=397661996&context=set-72157594488098254&size=o [01:35] thats what Glory looks like atm [01:35] your e is more ballsy. [01:35] what do you use as a replacement for the tray notifies in e dark? [01:36] troy, I just use ibox... it animates notifications for minimized apps [01:37] I dont do the tray [01:37] :P [01:37] it does animate eh? [01:37] that's all that i was concerned with [01:38] yup... and how depends on the theme used [01:38] like.... winter does a popup iirc [01:38] really? [01:38] that is darkness that one you are running isn't it? [01:38] detour floats text overlay on the icon [01:38] troy_s, yup [01:41] darkmatter: Do you know if you can turn an icon view on in evm or increase the sizes? [01:41] i imagine you can, but i don't quite see where. [01:41] troy_s, not sure [01:42] I havent really dug through the guts yet [01:54] troy_s, http://njpatel.blogspot.com/index.html [01:54] chech the tracker post [01:54] *check [02:01] tracker post? [02:01] tst? [02:01] darkmatter: ? [02:01] yup [02:01] the tst one [02:01] lookin slick it is [02:02] anyway... bbl [02:02] the missus wants at the puter === effraie [n=effraie@jem75-1-82-228-146-152.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PWill [n=paul@cpe-24-208-190-43.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PWill [n=paul@cpe-24-208-190-43.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PWill_ [n=paul@cpe-24-208-190-43.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === troy_s [n=aphorism@d206-116-6-170.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === troy_s [n=aphorism@d206-116-6-170.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === HorD [n=HorD@unaffiliated/hord] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PseudoPlacebo [n=Placebo@user-0ceveav.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === HorD [n=HorD@unaffiliated/hord] has left #ubuntu-artwork ["www.ubuntu-lat.org"] === coz_ [n=coz_@pool-68-162-162-84.pitt.east.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PseudoPlacebo [n=Placebo@user-0ceveav.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PseudoPlacebo [n=Placebo@user-0ceveav.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === klepas [n=klepas@ppp167-251-133.static.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === coz_ [n=coz_@pool-68-162-162-84.pitt.east.verizon.net] has left #ubuntu-artwork ["Leaving"] === klepas_ [n=klepas@ppp167-251-133.static.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === klepas_ is now known as klepas === msikma [n=Msikma@s55933ad4.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === andreasn [n=andreas@h101n1fls31o839.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === BHSPitMonkey [n=stephen@adsl-67-64-115-205.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PseudoPlacebo [n=Placebo@user-0ceveav.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === yharrow [n=sysadmin@h-68-164-34-22.nycmny83.dynamic.covad.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === hellwolf [n=hellwolf@222.188.153.159] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === hellwolf [n=hellwolf@222.188.153.159] has left #ubuntu-artwork ["Leaving"] === mvgh [n=mvgh@122.0.229.250] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === karron [n=karron@222.93.184.72] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === andreasn [n=andreas@h101n1fls31o839.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === lapo [n=lapo@host102-254-static.189-82-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [12:41] hi there [12:41] hi, lapo === lizardking [n=Miranda@host71-66-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [12:47] hey [12:47] how do I join ubuntu-artwork? === klepas [n=klepas@60-242-104-119.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [01:02] dave84, :) there is a typo in your interfaces file [01:03] do sudo gedit /etc/network/interfaces [01:04] change the last line to #wireless-keys: [01:04] instead of wireless-key s === darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === Seveaz [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [01:42] hey [01:42] anyone here? === |Element| [n=Element@122.8.49.33] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [01:56] yharrow: moin [01:56] mornin all [01:57] moinmoin darkmatter === |Element| [n=Element@122.8.49.18] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [02:55] hey kepas [02:55] you still there? [02:56] klepas* === kwwii pushed a gdm and session splash for the next herd (deadline today), check it out if you're interested === darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === |Element [n=Element@221.4.137.132] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [03:13] anybody here? [03:15] yharrow: hi [03:15] hey andreas [03:15] andreas do you know how I can join the artwork team? [03:16] yes, subscribe to the ubuntu-art mailing list [03:16] there is also some ubuntu-art team in launchpad [03:17] meaning you will get notified when there is artwork bugs opened and stuff [03:17] all I need to do is subscribe? [03:17] I think so anyway [03:18] andreas, are you ont the art team? [03:18] well, I'm subscribed to the list, on that launchpad-thingy and one of the authors of tangerine-icon-theme [03:18] even though I focus most of my efforts on gnome upstream [03:19] niiice.. [03:20] so how do I get onto thye launchpad team? [03:20] or rather how do i get on the artwork team in launchpad [03:20] hm, it was like a million years since I got into that [03:20] I'll look it up [03:20] thanks man [03:24] https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art [03:24] just add yourself, no approval needed [03:24] oh ok will do [03:24] thanks a ton man [03:24] no problem [03:25] hope you can contribute something cool [03:25] btw have you noticed that in certain places the icons are totally conflicting with the human theme? [03:25] like the translate icon in most apps [03:25] and get help [03:26] at least in gaim and some others [03:26] hm, wonder why those even have icons [03:27] well, from my design perspective almost everything should have an icon [03:27] but rather have no icon then a horrible one [03:28] :) [03:28] so yeah [03:28] btw why shouldnt they have icons? [03:28] I would like to understand [03:28] well, there is the osx approach that labels should be good and no icons in menus, the windows way that if there is a toolbar icon you should have a corresponding one in the menus [03:29] and there is the gnome way that says that icons are pretty pictures [03:30] do you mean that you feel some of the gnome icons are random? [03:30] and there just for the sake of being there [03:30] ? [03:31] some are totally random and clutters the interface [03:31] ok, Im beginning to understand what you mean. Can you give me an example? [03:32] did you ever see garretts industrial theme for firefox, where everything in the menus had a icon? [03:32] no I have not. is it default in gnome? [03:33] :) would probably be something to see the way your describing it [03:33] no, it's not, I think it shipped with NLD9 or something [03:33] http://www.tigert.com/archives/2005/09/15/ive-created-a-monster/ === |Element| [n=element_@221.4.137.132] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [03:33] can you give me an example of an icon in ubuntu that is not coordinated and simply clutters [03:34] am reading web page [03:35] the most recent inkscape builds are a quite horrible example of too many icons in the menus [03:36] need pasword to access garrets theme [03:36] hmm [03:36] even though some of the more visually oriented stuff use pictograms that actually help, like the stuff in Path [03:36] gonna open inkscape [03:36] anyway, I better get back to work [03:36] ok [03:37] thanks for pointing that stuff out though [03:37] I think I agree with some of what your saying [03:37] Ill ttyl === |Element| [n=element_@221.4.137.132] has left #ubuntu-artwork [] === EmxBA [n=emx@ubuntu/member/emxba] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === troy_s [n=aphorism@d206-116-6-170.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === msikma [n=Msikma@s55933ad4.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === lizardking [n=Miranda@host71-66-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PWill [n=paul@cpe-24-208-190-43.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === Riddell [i=jr@muse.19inch.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === fschoep [n=frank@adsl-dc-35cb8.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === troy_s [n=aphorism@d206-116-6-170.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === ryanakca [n=ryan@ubuntu/member/ryanakca] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === h4writer [n=h4writer@d51A48402.access.telenet.be] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === nysosym [n=nysosym@p54B7B347.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [11:50] hi there :) [11:51] kwwii, I see you're in charge for artwork in feisty. Can you look to http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=2196113. I think it will be a good improvement. [12:04] h4writer: first off, I am making the artwork for feisty, not in charge of it :p [12:05] :p ok, I guess you understood me;-) [12:05] boah, and second, I am not a registered member of the forum yet [12:05] ok, I will put it on imageshack [12:06] (no member of forum?!) [12:06] http://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=yelper9.png [12:06] forums aren't popular [12:06]