[12:09] <h4writer> do I need to take a scrnshot?
[12:09] <troy_s> if you are offering something up for comparison it seems to make logical sense
[12:09] <troy_s> otherwise you can't exactly flip back and forth visually easy enough...
[12:10] <troy_s> just a thought, not that my opinion matters.  i would suggest it will make it easier for kwwii to evaluate against what he is currently working with though.
[12:10] <h4writer> ok
[12:10] <kwwii> h4writer: if the content text was a bit smaller, I could see using such a light grey, as the text would stand out due to it's size
[12:10] <h4writer> I'm opening gimp
[12:10] <kwwii> why not oragne?
[12:12] <h4writer> that's the old one: http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oldhelpcentrefq1.png
[12:14] <h4writer> (I'm not that good in layout, but I think it's an improvement. If you want I want change some things, but like I said I'm not that good (especially with details)
[12:14] <h4writer> So you think the left bar isn't good?
[12:15] <kwwii> I love the left bar - it looks amazing
[12:15] <kwwii> ;-)
[12:16] <h4writer> okey
[12:16] <kwwii> I was only talking about the color of the title text
[12:16] <kwwii> and/or size of it
[12:16] <kwwii> but rather than make the text bigger, make the other text a bit smaller
[12:16] <h4writer> (just ripped it from gnome-control-panel:p)
[12:17] <kwwii> very nice, much better than edgy
[12:17] <kwwii> another choice would be to make the grey color a bit darker
[12:18] <h4writer> I think it's that fresh, because the grey is light
[12:18] <troy_s> seems that grey is very unhumanish no?
[12:18] <troy_s> kwwii?
[12:18] <kwwii> I agree with that totally, but i think it still needs to stand out somehow, however slightly to show that it is a title
[12:19] <troy_s> are you talking about the font colour or the pill?
[12:19] <kwwii> troy_s: I think that there is a lot of very human incfluences in that screen
[12:19] <troy_s> kwwii it also, and i know you have a long list of crap to deal with
[12:19] <h4writer> maybe with some icons before it?
[12:19] <troy_s> that the 'orange' should be locked into place hue wise
[12:19] <h4writer> like a list
[12:19] <kwwii> I am talking about the grey color of the text at the top right
[12:19] <troy_s> probably snag it from the folder icon and say 'this is ubuntu orange' (not logo)
[12:20] <troy_s> so that the hues are the same
[12:20] <troy_s> across all uses.
[12:26] <kwwii> troy_s: if we had a decent palette ready it would not be a problem
[12:26] <troy_s> kwwii ;)
[12:26] <troy_s> no shit
[12:27] <troy_s> kwwii the problem is that sabdfl has taken this backasswards appraoch
[12:27] <troy_s> now it is retrofitting poorly combined colours with
[12:27] <troy_s> a 'larger' palette
[12:27] <troy_s> the orange for example, simply breaks it.
[12:27] <kwwii> oh, I think he knows much less about this than you think
[12:27] <kwwii> it is more of a feeling for him, I think
[12:27] <troy_s> the tan and the orange are like... oblique
[12:27] <troy_s> they _cannot_ be reconciled
[12:27] <troy_s> they are leagues off on value at the very least
[12:28] <troy_s> hue wise i suppose we could kludge around localize the tan, localize the orange and distribute accordingly
[12:28] <troy_s> but _something_ has to give somewhere.
[12:28] <kwwii> sure
[12:28] <kwwii> that is very apparent
[12:28] <troy_s> take the degrees off of tan hue from orange and distribute around using a quad, or a triplet, or...
[12:28] <troy_s> but even still... the value sucks
[12:29] <kwwii> my biggest worry is that I, in my haste, create something off-base
[12:29] <troy_s> i would need to experiment with the thing as I haven't actually looked at where the bloody orange falls on the wheel
[12:29] <troy_s> you know what?  anything off base, if it follows an bloody architecture, is leagues better than where it sits.
[12:29] <kwwii> once feisty artwork is out the door we can work on this
[12:29] <troy_s> even if it is questionable in execution.
[12:30] <kwwii> yeah, but creating something only to change it right away is stupid too
[12:30] <troy_s> my thinking is that we should consider what is the more important hue
[12:30] <troy_s> the tan or the orange
[12:30] <troy_s> and anchor from that
[12:30] <troy_s> kwwii yep
[12:30] <kwwii> and people wasting time on testing whether it works is worth money
[12:31] <troy_s> kwwii ultimately though, the main problem is that there is no pattern.  it is very throw shit at wall and see if it sticks, which with _zero_ architecture, is a complete subjective and bikeshed bound waste of time.
[12:31] <h4writer> I thought there was a color scheme?
[12:31] <troy_s> no
[12:31] <troy_s> there _was_ one for many ages ago, but a braindead imp could realize it is being followed exactly 0% of the time
[12:31] <kwwii> troy_s: yepp, true as well
[12:32] <troy_s> kwwii if you manage to win that argument, it is deadly easy for us to say
[12:32] <troy_s> A) wallpaper should be middle grey in tone (18% value) based on hues x/y/z/a/b
[12:32] <kwwii> even if the rule is "break the rule" at least do it in an organized and reproducable way :-)
[12:32] <troy_s> b) icons say are more saturated... but still use x/y/z/a/b
[12:33] <kwwii> such palettes are living documents
[12:33] <troy_s> the nice thing about having those architectural elements in place is that it lets you say 'that is borked out of the gate'
[12:33] <kwwii> but without a good base you loose track
[12:33] <troy_s> palettes should be locked.
[12:33] <h4writer> (i'm looking to all this text as a n00b:p I didn't know there was such a 'theory' behind it
[12:33] <troy_s> that is the whole point of them... they
[12:34] <kwwii> troy_s: a base palette is locked
[12:34] <troy_s> are meant to be a specific 'subset' to communicate elements.  if you round them out to include every hue, they are no longer a palette.
[12:34] <kwwii> and an extended one is certainly needed
[12:34] <troy_s> the idea is to create 'grass', for example, with the restricted colours...
[12:34] <kwwii> as many companies have per product cycle
[12:34] <troy_s> that creates the mood.
[12:35] <troy_s> which is why good brand palettizing has some lovely work -- you see stylized sky motifs that are green or ..., stylized flowers that are xxx, etc.
[12:35] <troy_s> all the while you know that the colours dictate the consistency.
[12:35] <troy_s> which is again, one of tangos weaknesses
[12:35] <troy_s> etc.
[12:36] <troy_s> the palette is too broad and effectively loses its consistency
[12:36] <troy_s> h4writer: yes, there are a good deal of solid books on colour theory (without getting into the rather questionable notions of colour psychology)
[12:36] <troy_s> colour psychology for all intents and purposes is a bunk concept.  they are all culturally learned responses.
[12:37] <h4writer> nice
[12:38] <troy_s> h4writer: If you plan on reading some, start with some of the more mainstream oil painter style versions.  they are pretty practical in approach.
[12:38] <h4writer> but still I think the one I give is better than the probably correct edgy help centre.
[12:39] <h4writer> (my intention is not to not follow the rules
[12:39] <h4writer> is just I don't know them yet)
[12:39] <kwwii> troy_s: if tango was smart, the would create a real palette and use the current one as an icon palette base only
[12:39] <kwwii> but anyway, enough about tango
[12:39] <h4writer> I will definitely start reading it
[12:39] <troy_s> kwwii I think that when you implement a limited palette across a good number of installations, they look wonderful.
[12:40] <troy_s> look at some of metisse's work for example
[12:40] <troy_s> you simply see the 'set' when you look at different paintings
[12:40] <troy_s> because the palette is identical.
[12:40] <kwwii> better yet, I have worked with branding stuff from Siemens, Fujitsu, IBM, Novell, etc
[12:41] <kwwii> it is amazing how they think of everything
[12:41] <kwwii> in one solid package
[12:41] <troy_s> absolutely!
[12:41] <troy_s> that's the whole idea
[12:41] <troy_s> seeing the forest
[12:41] <troy_s> not the trees
[12:41] <kwwii> small, definable, usable
[12:41] <troy_s> a good friend of mine started up the drawing board
[12:41] <troy_s> (huge hip hop design firm that did many many albums in the hip hop heyday)
[12:42] <troy_s> and he was a huge palette stickler
[12:42] <troy_s> it works regardless of the colours you choose... just stick to the set.
[12:42] <troy_s> (it also forces a certain creativity because you can't choose 'red' if you don't have it.)
[12:42] <kwwii> yepp, definitely
[12:42] <troy_s> the result can be quite stunning in the hands of a gifted artist.
[12:42] <kwwii> it defines a style
[12:42] <troy_s> and the internal consistency is invaluable
[12:43] <kwwii> and you have to be a good artist to create works in a given style
[12:43] <kwwii> but without such info it would be impossible
[12:43] <troy_s> well that is where we get a massive boost from having such a palette
[12:43] <kwwii> aka what happened to crystal
[12:43] <troy_s> if our palette is say, 5-6 primary hues
[12:43] <troy_s> you get a certain degree of 'style' simply by implementing the palette
[12:43] <kwwii> the thing is, 4 are predefined
[12:43] <kwwii> yellow, orange, red and black
[12:44] <troy_s> well yes.
[12:44] <troy_s> but those aren't a palette thus far
[12:44] <kwwii> and you have to include black as it is a major element of the logo
[12:44] <troy_s> those are more like 'coke red'
[12:44] <troy_s> the palette from what i can see
[12:44] <troy_s> is loosely rooted in either the tan
[12:44] <troy_s> or the orange
[12:44] <troy_s> (not the logo orange)
[12:44] <troy_s> the orange in the icons
[12:44] <kwwii> I would want 12 or so colors and 3 or 4 variations of each to be able to decide on a final selection
[12:44] <troy_s> one could argue that with that monochrome wallpaper the tan is probably the more important.
[12:45] <troy_s> 12 hues is pretty much a full spectrum
[12:45] <troy_s> rgb/cmy
[12:45] <troy_s> that's six and covers a good deal
[12:45] <kwwii> well, one would settle on about 8 I guess
[12:45] <troy_s> lol
[12:45] <kwwii> but looking at that many would be good
[12:46] <kwwii> 6 at the least
[12:46] <troy_s> it would be nice to have a very finite set
[12:46] <kwwii> very least
[12:46] <troy_s> at the very least to steer the consistency
[12:46] <kwwii> 4 main colors, and a few others
[12:46] <troy_s> (values aside)
[12:46] <troy_s> yes
[12:46] <kwwii> at least two tans
[12:46] <troy_s> % bases of the whole
[12:46] <kwwii> a reddish and an orange version
[12:46] <troy_s> most designer selections offer you a triplet
[12:46] <kwwii> having a yellowish on would not be bad either
[12:47] <kwwii> sure, and then triplets of those :-)
[12:47] <kwwii> anyway
[12:47] <troy_s> it would be nice to have one.
[12:47] <kwwii> time for bed
[12:47] <troy_s> i think we can agree on that.
[12:47] <troy_s> nicht kiwi
[12:47] <troy_s> i must mop
[12:47] <troy_s> lol
[12:48] <h4writer> kwwii, sorry to interrupt, but I'm going to my bed. Now what's the state of the help centre. Will you look for it, so it makes feisty. Or do I still need to do some things?
[12:48] <kwwii> I, like a dipshit, left the mercedes door open last night and the battery was dead, which means I have to get up early after it is done charging and put it back in the car so my wife can go to work
[12:48] <kwwii> h4writer: will you be online tomorrow?
[12:48] <h4writer> nop, got a party
[12:48] <kwwii> h4writer: it is too late for the next herd anyway
[12:49] <kwwii> today was the deadline
[12:49] <h4writer> saterday I will be online
[12:49] <kwwii> h4writer: so if we put it in soon we might still make it through
[12:49] <kwwii> h4writer: I'd like to check out how to make it look best though
[12:49] <h4writer> ok
[12:49] <kwwii> h4writer: which time zone are you in?
[12:50] <h4writer> +1
[12:50] <h4writer> europe, Brussel
[12:50] <kwwii> excellent, I am in germany
[12:50] <h4writer> nice, so that will not be a problem
[12:50] <kwwii> we will definitely talk about this more, ok?
[12:50] <h4writer> ok
[12:50] <h4writer> I see you saterday
[12:50] <h4writer> alright?
[12:50] <kwwii> great, see you then!
[12:50] <h4writer> bye
[12:51] <kwwii> bye
[12:51] <kwwii> night troy_s, all
[12:51] <kwwii> troy_s: btw. I got a response from the media center people
[12:51] <kwwii> telling me that not much is done yet
[12:51] <kwwii> look at the webpage
[12:51] <kwwii> , etc
[12:51] <kwwii> that seems to be about it
[12:52] <troy_s> kwwii well we
[12:52] <kwwii> the guy who is/was doing it had a hardware problem or such
[12:52] <troy_s> should maybe offer a brainstorm?
[12:52] <kwwii> definitely
[12:52] <troy_s> how about you email me a set of your ideas
[12:52] <troy_s> and we can see if we can round something out
[12:52] <troy_s> into at least a solid starting point
[12:52] <troy_s> see if it flies.
[12:52] <kwwii> how about we talk with them first to decide exactly what they need?
[12:53] <troy_s> sure... see what their expectations are.
[12:53] <kwwii> I can imagine that they have different needs than the normal ubuntu distro
[12:53] <troy_s> that said, it might be nice to bring _something_ to the table.
[12:53] <kwwii> see what limitations there are
[12:53] <troy_s> (hopefully they are going with myth)
[12:53] <troy_s> seems like a no brainer
[12:53] <kwwii> get all the info first
[12:53] <troy_s> i already see the language issue
[12:53] <kwwii> and then walk blindly into the forest
[12:53] <kwwii> :p
[12:54] <troy_s> hopefully that can be negotiated.
[12:54] <kwwii> yeah
[12:54] <troy_s> well yeah... if you have been in contact
[12:54] <troy_s> see what you can glean
[12:54] <troy_s> i am ok for meetings over the next week
[12:54] <troy_s> then i start another show
[12:54] <kwwii> I'll respond tomorrow
[12:54] <kwwii> for tonight I am done
[12:54] <troy_s> aight
[12:54] <troy_s> chat soon
[12:54] <kwwii> see you soon
[01:28] <nysosym> i will go to bed now, my screen burns in my eyes ^^
[01:29] <nysosym> have a nice my friends :)
[01:29] <nysosym> hope to see u soon
[08:40] <h4writer> ping troy_s
[08:40] <h4writer> question is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Official?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ubuntu-palette.png good as color scheme?
[04:35] <troy_s> how come there are so many folks in here?
[04:36] <pmjdebruijn> so many?
[04:36] <coz_> lol
[04:36] <troy_s> yes... 21 is more than usual.
[04:36] <troy_s> greets coz_, missed you there.
[04:36] <coz_> troy_s, greetings in return ")
[04:41] <coz_> well this channel gets more and more chatty everyday ")
[07:29] <coz_> afternoon
[07:30] <coz_> question... i woul dlike to use keybindings to open/close the cd tray  particularly close it after about 6 econds...I can make the keybinding in gome to open it but the keybinding toclose itisinmetacity and with beryl running that doesn't work
[07:30] <coz_> wrong channel