[02:00] <mpt> Gooooooooooooooood afternoon Launchpadders!
[02:07] <LaserJock> hi mpt 
[02:10] <ajmitch> good afternoon mpt
[03:15] <Ubugtu> New bug: #87471 in launchpad "Grey text is unnecessarily difficult to read" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/87471
[03:47] <sistpoty> hi
[03:48] <sistpoty> how can I make the member techboard an administrator of the team motu?
[04:01] <ajmitch> they should be owner
[04:02] <ajmitch> so I think dholbach should change that
[04:02] <sistpoty> *cough*
[04:02] <ajmitch> heh
[04:02] <ajmitch> oh my
[04:03] <sistpoty> at least I wasn't stupid enough to rip myself of admin privileges yet *g*
[04:55] <Ubugtu> New bug: #87483 in launchpad "Need "Register a product" action button images" [Medium,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/87483
[08:29] <sabdfl> morning mpt
[08:30] <Fujitsu> Hi sabdfl.
[08:30] <sabdfl> hey Fujitsu
[08:31] <sabdfl> Fujitsu: liking the beta?
[08:31] <Fujitsu> sabdfl: It's soooo much better in a lot of ways :) Still needs some improvements, obviously.
[08:31] <sabdfl> yup, but i think we will start pushing it harder in a week or two once the initial cleanup is done
[08:33] <Fujitsu> Sounds good.
[08:33] <Fujitsu> It should be less of a maze, with the application tabs, for example.
[08:36] <sabdfl> agreed, it has a much more consistent and understandable navigation system
[08:37] <Fujitsu> Some of it (parts of the navigation within distribution source packages, for example) is still pretty terrible.
[08:49] <sabdfl> yes, agreed
[08:50] <Fujitsu> It's one of the most complex mazes I've found in such a web application, unfortunately.
[08:58] <mpt> hi sabdfl 
[09:01] <sabdfl> morning mpt
[09:01] <sabdfl> good day?
[09:02] <mpt> SMTP problems, but apart from that, yes
[09:03] <Fujitsu> mpt: Are there any improvements in line for the distro source package stuff on LP? Or should I complain to somebody else?
[09:03] <sabdfl> mpt: will merge your branch into mine shortly
[09:04] <sabdfl> there is a test failure i'm fixing, then i'll send it off to PQM too
[09:04] <sabdfl> thanks for the update
[09:04] <sabdfl> let's speak again monday morning my time, and we'll identify more snags
[09:04] <mpt> ok
[09:04] <sabdfl> mpt: do you have any unmerged work at this stage?
[09:05] <mpt> yes, the work I'm doing right now :-)
[09:05] <sabdfl> ok then :-)
[09:05] <sabdfl> i just don't want to create unnecessary conflicts
[09:06] <sabdfl> if you could leave time at the end of your day to make sure your work passes page tests, then push the branch and ping me, i will integrate, review and possibly land it
[09:07] <sabdfl> main thing I want to get right this w/e is the navigation between /products/, /distributions/, /meetings/ and /people/
[09:07] <sabdfl> if you could get the template for that right I will happily do the menus
[09:08] <sabdfl> i will also fix up those pages to deal with the register-if-you-could-not-find-it cases
[09:08] <sabdfl> though of course they will just be rough links and will have to wait for action buttons
[09:13] <mpt> I have numerous other lists of problems to fix too
[09:20] <Ubugtu> New bug: #87497 in launchpad "Tab (facet) text should not be customizable" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/87497
[09:21] <sabdfl> ok, let's get as many of the one-liners and easy fixes in as possible this w/e
[09:31] <Ubugtu> New bug: #87499 in blueprint ""Register a spec" button should be "Register a blueprint"" [Medium,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/87499
[10:55] <Ubugtu> New bug: #87513 in rosetta "Combine "Change" and "Filter" buttons on translation page" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/87513
[11:14] <sabdfl> ...that only moved in one direction...
[11:15] <mpt> oh, that would be a bonus
[11:16] <sabdfl> mpt: it does!
[11:17] <mpt> In Edgy at least, it goes in one direction on startup, the other direction on shutdown
[11:17] <sabdfl> mpt: i'm changing the order of these action items on the products/distros/sprints pages
[11:17] <mpt> I guess someone thought that was cute...
[11:17] <sabdfl> the "switch views" links should be at the top, then the "register" and "show all" ones
[11:17] <mpt> ok
[11:18] <sabdfl> mpt: oh, that's because shutting down is not the unwinding of starting up
[11:18] <sabdfl> it's a train leaving a station
[11:18] <sabdfl> also, the capitalisation of the menus should I think be "Show projects" not "Show Projects"
[11:18] <sabdfl> sentence caps
[11:18] <mpt> 1.1!
[11:19] <mpt> Seriously, that would be an easy but very long task
[11:20] <sabdfl> i'll do it
[11:20] <sabdfl> just for the menus i touch today
[11:21] <mpt> I think the inconsistency would look bad - better to change it in one go
[11:24] <Fujitsu> Speaking of consistency... Is the lack of it on the action (`Report a bug', 'File a ticket', 'Translate') buttons on product pages known/deliberate?
[11:25] <mpt> Fujitsu, if you're referring to "Ask a question" being slightly different from the others, yes, that's known and not deliberate
[11:25] <Fujitsu> mpt: That's the one. Good.
[11:25] <Fujitsu> It does look somewhat odd at the moment.
[11:26] <sabdfl> mpt: the watermarks don't use a consistent amount of space
[11:26] <sabdfl> as a result, it looks like the text is jumping around
[11:26] <sabdfl> when it isn't
[11:26] <sabdfl> need to get that fixed
[11:26] <mpt> They are different sizes, yes
[11:26] <mpt> ranging from ~70px to ~100px
[11:26] <sabdfl> yowser
[11:26] <sabdfl> that's terrible
[11:26] <sabdfl> they should occupy the same size, and left/right/top/bottom whitespace should be consistent
[11:27] <sabdfl> please won't you drop usman a note?
[11:27] <sabdfl> thanks
[11:27] <mpt> ok
[11:31] <BjornT> mpt: you get a progress indication if you supply -p to the test runner
[11:40] <Ubugtu> New bug: #87518 in launchpad "Watermarks should be a consistent size" [Medium,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/87518
[12:05] <Ubugtu> New bug: #2497 in rosetta "/people/*/+translations times out for prolific translators" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/2497
[12:35] <Ubugtu> New bug: #52806 in rosetta "interface: "next" should be at the bottom, too" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/52806
[12:50] <Ubugtu> New bug: #87525 in rosetta ""New translation" box out of screen" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/87525
[02:29] <kgoetz> i'm wondering if its posible to disable displaying the 'tags' list. i'm finding this list is longer then the useful content on  the page, and probably takes more bandwidth
[02:30] <kgoetz> for the record, theres tags there
[02:30] <kgoetz> * 798 tags
[02:36] <kgoetz> mmm. i'm off to sleep, but question remains ;)
[02:37] <kgoetz> night all
[04:26] <dsas> hi, I'm wondering if I could be added to the launchpad-beta-testers team? I applied and sent an email to matt revell nearly two weeks ago saying I won't post any screenshots...
[06:36] <sabdfl> dsas: done
[07:04] <cbx33> does LP authenticate you via your gpg key when uploading and commiting to bzr branches?
[07:04] <dsas> cbx33: ssh key 
[07:04] <cbx33> ahh ok
[07:04] <cbx33> thanks dsas
[07:05] <dsas> sabdfl: cool, thanks!
[07:05] <sabdfl> np
[07:06] <dsas> wow, this looks great.
[07:10] <cbx33> ok, if someone wants to check otu a branch on LP for commiting to
[07:10] <cbx33> is it 
[07:11] <cbx33> bzr branch <sftp://branch etc>
[07:12] <sabdfl> cbx33: roughly, yes
[07:12] <sabdfl> that will branch
[07:12] <cbx33> cool
[07:12] <cbx33> thanks sabdfl 
[07:12] <sabdfl> if you want to checkout, i think you use bzr checkout url://
[07:12] <cbx33> ahh i see
[07:12] <sabdfl> difference is where you commit to
[07:12] <cbx33> i mean I am in a team on LP with another user
[07:12] <cbx33> ahhh i see
[07:12] <sabdfl> typically, i branch to a local dir, hack hack hack local, commit offline etc, then push
[07:13] <cbx33> that's what I want to do
[07:13] <sabdfl> cbx33: ok, then you probably want to checkout a shared branch
[07:13] <sabdfl> you both then commit to the same place
[07:13] <cbx33> yes
[07:13] <sabdfl> LP acts like a free file storage space then
[07:13] <cbx33> well i want us both to push to the same place???
[07:13] <cbx33> currently I push to it
[07:13] <dsas> which would be bzr push sftp://bazaar.launchpad.net/~teamname/product/branchname
[07:14] <cbx33> so does my team mate need to branch or checkout?
[07:14] <sabdfl> ok, slow down
[07:15] <sabdfl> separate two concepts
[07:15] <sabdfl> one concept is the "branch", which has a lot of history associated with it
[07:15] <sabdfl> that's where all the old revisions are stored
[07:15] <cbx33> right
[07:15] <sabdfl> when you commit, that gets updated
[07:15] <sabdfl> the other concept is your "working directory" or "working tree" (because in bzr it's the whole directory tree in one)
[07:15] <sabdfl> when you checkout, you leave the branch where it is, and you create a local working directory
[07:16] <sabdfl> inside that, when you commit, the changes are recorded in the branch that you checked out
[07:16] <cbx33> ahh i see
[07:16] <cbx33> so at the moment I must have a branch
[07:16] <cbx33> as when i commit it's local
[07:16] <cbx33> and I push to the location
[07:16] <cbx33> right?
[07:16] <sabdfl> so if you do "bzr checkout lp:~team/product/branch" you are creating a local working directory, but the branch stays at lp
[07:16] <sabdfl> cbx33: exactly right
[07:17] <cbx33> so...
[07:17] <cbx33> would it be safe/good idea for my team mate to branch out too?
[07:17] <sabdfl> when you do "bzr branch lp:xxx" you are making a local branch
[07:17] <sabdfl> cbx33: sure
[07:17] <sabdfl> BUT
[07:17] <sabdfl> then he should not push to the shared location
[07:17] <sabdfl> he will overwrite any changes
[07:17] <cbx33> ahhh
[07:17] <cbx33> sooo
[07:17] <cbx33> if iwanted him to be able to commit to the server.....
[07:17] <cbx33> would he have to checkout instead
[07:17] <cbx33> and me too?
[07:17] <sabdfl> so... if you want a shared branch, you create the team, push to a branch for the team, then BOTH check it out
[07:18] <sabdfl> then you can ALSO branch it locally
[07:18] <cbx33> ok...
[07:18] <sabdfl> now you have two things
[07:18] <cbx33> or you can do commit --local i hear ?
[07:18] <sabdfl> a local working directory of the shared branch
[07:18] <sabdfl> and a branch+working directory
[07:18] <sabdfl> do your work in the branch
[07:18] <sabdfl> merge into the local-wd-of-checkout
[07:18] <sabdfl> commit
[07:18] <cbx33> jee this gets confusing
[07:19] <cbx33> hehe
[07:19] <sabdfl> it's easier with pictures
[07:19] <sabdfl> and once you get it, you fly
[07:19] <cbx33> if i checkout...i saw someone say you can commit --local ?
[07:19] <sabdfl> bzr is the easiest of the distributed ones to use
[07:19] <sabdfl> yes, i believe you can, but have never used that so don't know how it works
[07:19] <cbx33> i have used it for a while....but not..."properly"
[07:19] <cbx33> ok
[07:20] <cbx33> thanks sabdfl that's a great help
[07:21] <cbx33> how do i create the branch from the checkout?
[07:21] <sabdfl> hmmm
[07:22] <cbx33> my local one i mean
[07:22] <sabdfl> try just bzr branch checkoutdir newdir
[07:22] <cbx33> ok
[07:22] <sabdfl> it might automatically fetch the stuff from the branch associated with that checkoutdir
[07:22] <cbx33> ok
[07:29] <cbx33> sabdfl, if I want to check for updates
[07:30] <cbx33> I presume I'd have to first run bzr update in the chreckout?
[07:30] <cbx33> then again in the working branch?
[07:30] <sabdfl> the working branch and the checkout are different
[07:31] <sabdfl> so, if you are in the working tree, and do update, it looks at the branch and says "are there new commits in this branch since I was last updated"
[07:31] <sabdfl> if your buddy committed to the shared branch, those changes will come into your checkout working directory
[07:31] <sabdfl> and you may have to resolve conflicts
[07:31] <cbx33> ahhh
[07:31] <cbx33> ok
[07:31] <cbx33> what if i worked in my checkout?
[07:32] <sabdfl> now, if you then cd to the working BRANCH you made locally (it's actually a workingtree+branch)
[07:32] <sabdfl> and do bzr update
[07:32] <sabdfl> then you will see "nothing to do"
[07:32] <sabdfl> why?
[07:32] <sabdfl> because nobody else is committing to your local branch
[07:32] <sabdfl> make sense?
[07:32] <sabdfl> in the WT of the checkout, someone else might commit to the shared branch
[07:32] <sabdfl> so bzr update will look for that
[07:32] <sabdfl> but in a local branch (which is a WT+branch), your buddy can't commit to that
[07:33] <sabdfl> so bzr update will never see anything there new
[07:33] <cbx33> indeed
[07:33] <cbx33> so
[07:33] <sabdfl> bzr merge is what you want
[07:33] <cbx33> is it just bad practice to "work" in my checkout
[07:33] <sabdfl> will pull in new revisions from the shared branch into your local WT+branch
[07:33] <sabdfl> cbx33: no
[07:33] <sabdfl> the bzr developers often do that 
[07:33] <sabdfl> when they are rapidly collaborating
[07:34] <sabdfl> (i think they know how to commit locally with a checkout too)
[07:34] <sabdfl> if say they are offline and want to commit
[07:34] <sabdfl> bzr gives you this flexibility
[07:34] <sabdfl> but MOST people don't need this
[07:34] <sabdfl> i've never used a shared branch and checkout
[07:34] <sabdfl> i just use branches
[07:34] <sabdfl> however
[07:34] <cbx33> yes
[07:35] <cbx33> it seems less complicated
[07:35] <sabdfl> in order to make it perform better, i use another concept that I haven't told you about
[07:35] <sabdfl> ready for it?
[07:35] <cbx33> yup
[07:35] <sabdfl> ok
[07:35] <cbx33> oh hang on 2 secs
[07:35] <cbx33> I'm getting my team mate to join
[07:35] <sabdfl> what i have been describing as a "Branch" is actually 2 things
[07:35] <encompass> ok
[07:35] <sabdfl> too late - he missed the early stuff, so this will be confusing
[07:35] <sabdfl> sorry encompass
[07:35] <cbx33> bno he hasn't
[07:35] <sabdfl> ok
[07:35] <cbx33> I've been pasting
[07:36] <sabdfl> ok
[07:36] <encompass> howdy
[07:36] <sabdfl> so what i've been calling a "Branch" is 2 things
[07:36] <sabdfl> first, it's a "cloud of revisions"
[07:36] <sabdfl> second, it's a "listing of the sequence of revisions that describes the history of THIS branch"
[07:36] <encompass> ok
[07:36] <encompass> I get that
[07:36] <sabdfl> you can actually separate those two
[07:37] <cbx33> oh really?
[07:37] <sabdfl> and share the "cloud of revisions" across multiple branches
[07:37] <sabdfl> think about it
[07:37] <sabdfl> the cloud of revisions contains EVERY version of EVERY file that has EVER existed
[07:37] <cbx33> yeh i see
[07:37] <sabdfl> if you make a new branch, and put 1 commit on it, you may touch, say 5 files
[07:37] <sabdfl> why store ALL the other revisions as well?
[07:38] <sabdfl> more importantly, why not put all of them into one shared cloud?
[07:38] <sabdfl> you have to keep the history of each branch separate
[07:38] <encompass> that way everyone gets changes at once
[07:38] <sabdfl> encompass: yes, if they are all sharing the cloud
[07:38] <sabdfl> but usually, this shared storage is all done locally
[07:38] <encompass> k
[07:38] <cbx33> indeed
[07:38] <sabdfl> what i'm describing now is called a repo
[07:38] <sabdfl> for repository
[07:39] <sabdfl> if i make a repository, and then underneath it I do a "bzr branch", all the revisions will be stored in the repo, and the branch sequence-of-revisions history gets stored in the branch
[07:39] <sabdfl> the sequence detail is tiny
[07:39] <sabdfl> compared to the cloud of revisions
[07:40] <sabdfl> so, this means then that when I merge into my branch from yours, all the revisions i have never seen before go into the cloud
[07:40] <sabdfl> if I then merge from someone else, and you already provided me with a bunch of those revisions, I don't need to get them from you
[07:40] <sabdfl> sorry, from them
[07:40] <sabdfl> more importantly
[07:40] <sabdfl> say I merge mainline into my branch A
[07:40] <sabdfl> I get all the newer revisions
[07:40] <encompass> so when I make changes I get all his revisions too?
[07:41] <encompass> or "their"
[07:41] <sabdfl> if I immediately then merge mainline into my branch B, I don't need ANY new revisions, i can find them all locally
[07:41] <sabdfl> hm...
[07:41] <cbx33> ahh
[07:41] <sabdfl> think of each change they made as a "revision"
[07:41] <cbx33> so...
[07:41] <sabdfl> actually, it's not the change, it's the "state of the files at the time of commit"
[07:41] <cbx33> there is a local cloud of all revisions?
[07:41] <encompass> ok
[07:42] <sabdfl> when I go commit, hack, commit, hack, commit, i make a set of revisions
[07:42] <sabdfl> when you merge from me, you will get each of those revisions
[07:42] <cbx33> yes
[07:42] <sabdfl> cbx33: there isn't, unless you setup a repo and use it
[07:42] <cbx33> right i see
[07:42] <sabdfl> by default, each branch has its own cloud
[07:42] <cbx33> yes
[07:42] <sabdfl> so, imagine this setup
[07:42] <sabdfl> you have a big mainline over there on a server
[07:43] <sabdfl> you do this:
[07:43] <sabdfl> bzr branch sftp://server/path/to/mainline foo
[07:43] <sabdfl> bzr branch sftp://server/path/to/mainline  bzr
[07:43] <sabdfl> now
[07:43] <sabdfl> i have TWO branches
[07:43] <cbx33> yup
[07:43] <sabdfl> each of them has ALL the revisions EVER from mainline
[07:43] <cbx33> yes
[07:43] <sabdfl> they are complete branches, totally independent
[07:43] <sabdfl> i sucked down a lot of network bandwidth to do that
[07:44] <sabdfl> actually, right now they are identical
[07:44] <sabdfl> assuming nobody commited in between my branches
[07:44] <sabdfl> now I hack on the one branch for a while
[07:44] <cbx33> yeh
[07:44] <sabdfl> people commit to mainline
[07:44] <sabdfl> in the branch i am working on, i do a "bzr merge sftp://mainline..."
[07:45] <sabdfl> now, in the cloud for that branch, i have all the new revisions
[07:45] <cbx33> yes
[07:45] <sabdfl> but in the other branch, it's cloud is separate, i never merged into that
[07:45] <cbx33> got it
[07:45] <sabdfl> now, if the branches used a shared repo, things would be different
[07:45] <sabdfl> when i merge into branch foo, the following happens:
[07:45] <sabdfl>  1. the new revisions come into the shared cloud
[07:46] <sabdfl>  2. my working tree for *foo* gets the new changes, and maybe i have to update conflicts
[07:46] <sabdfl>  3. the working tree for *bar* is unaffected
[07:46] <sabdfl> but
[07:46] <sabdfl> say i now cd into bar
[07:46] <sabdfl> and merge from mainline
[07:46] <sabdfl> now, all the revisions are already in the shared cloud
[07:46] <sabdfl> so there's very little network traffic
[07:46] <cbx33> yes i see
[07:47] <encompass> ok... cool
[07:47] <sabdfl> (this is the smartness spiv is working on with the smart server, to optimise that sort of dialog between client and server)
[07:47] <sabdfl> so the merge goes very quickly
[07:47] <encompass> really quick
[07:47] <sabdfl> the client and server establish that we already have all the revisions locally
[07:47] <sabdfl> so its just the merge calculation
[07:47] <cbx33> right...
[07:47] <sabdfl> and my working directory is updated locally
[07:47] <cbx33> so a question
[07:48] <sabdfl> and of course the branch for bar also gets told "you have now included these revisions"
[07:48] <cbx33> encompass, and I are working on a very small...file quantiy.....project
[07:48] <cbx33> I have a branch that I have been working on
[07:48] <cbx33> and it is registered with LP
[07:48] <cbx33> as the team
[07:48] <sabdfl> sure
[07:48] <sabdfl> what do you mean "as the team"
[07:49] <cbx33> i created a team for our project
[07:49] <sabdfl> you mean you pushed the branch to a shared space, under a team account?
[07:49] <sabdfl> cool
[07:49] <cbx33> yes
[07:49] <sabdfl> you can have multiple branches of course, individually and in the team
[07:49] <cbx33> yes
[07:49] <cbx33> so would you recommend us having personal branchs
[07:49] <sabdfl> yes
[07:49] <sabdfl> it depends
[07:49] <cbx33> and then for example I could tak control of pushing to the server
[07:49] <sabdfl> do you  imagine adding features that will require substantial orthogonal work?
[07:50] <sabdfl> cbx33: that's one way
[07:50] <encompass> no
[07:50] <cbx33> we're pretty seperate
[07:50] <sabdfl> cbx33: you just merge from encompass, and push to the server
[07:50] <cbx33> :p
[07:50] <cbx33> ok
[07:50] <sabdfl> guys, i'm out of time
[07:50] <cbx33> np
[07:50] <sabdfl> hope this has helped
[07:50] <cbx33> thank you SOO much
[07:50] <cbx33> we owe you
[07:50] <encompass> it did it was a lease to chat with you
[07:50] <encompass> pleasure is all mine sire
[07:51] <cbx33> so i propose we create personal branches
[07:51] <encompass> yeah
[07:51] <encompass> ok I will go back to phimage
[07:51] <cbx33> and then i will take control of merging the changes into the team repo
[07:51] <encompass> he?