aSt3raLwhen will X be fully merged?12:14
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HobbseeaSt3raL: when it's done.12:17
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aSt3raLhaha ok12:17
=== bhale hugs Hobbsee
=== Hobbsee hugs bhale :)
Hobbseehow's that for an answer?12:17
aSt3raLit was more of a 'quit bugging me' than an answer :p12:19
=== Hobbsee isnt merging X
=== aSt3raL isnt either
aSt3raLHobbsee: so what do you do?12:22
HobbseeaSt3raL: i work on the kubuntu side of things, do a fair bit of bug triage, and am a MOTU, so work on universe stuff too12:22
aSt3raLok cool12:22
Hobbsee+ the community-ish side of kubuntu too12:22
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geseraSt3raL: the xorg meta package was uploaded with version 7.2 10 hours ago12:29
=== Hobbsee is still updating...
Hobbseeheya jono!!!12:29
jonoheya Hobbsee:)12:30
jonohows are we tonight?12:30
jonoor morning12:30
jonoor whatever it is in that crazy timezone12:30
StevenKjono: 10:30am12:30
Hobbseejono: it's morning!12:30
Hobbseestrange thing - i almost never see it...12:31
=== Hobbsee keeps working too many night shifts...
Hobbseeeven the customers comment...12:33
sabdf1Hobbsee: you must be a morning person :-)12:34
Hobbseesabdf1: heh.  nope :P12:35
=== Hobbsee went to bed at 2am this morning
=== Hobbsee wishes they did night uni - i'd actually be awake!
ajmitchhey jono, sabdf1 12:36
sabdf1howdy ajmitch12:36
jonohey ajmitch12:36
FujitsuHi sabdf1, jono.12:37
=== Hobbsee wonders why sabdf1 is sabdf1, not sabdfl, and cloaked.
jonohey Fujitsu12:37
Hobbsee(or identified)12:37
jonoHobbsee: he has multiple personalities12:37
=== jono chuckles
Hobbseejono: oh dear.  that's plus the random lunatics that pretend to be him, but talk like 13 year olds, right?12:37
ajmitchhow worrying12:38
Hobbseeajmitch: yes.  thank goodness for op powers.  (for stopping people disrupting channels)12:38
=== Fujitsu attacks Hobbsee for age-based discrimination.... and stuff.
HobbseeFujitsu: heh, sorry :)12:38
jonoHobbsee: not really, Mark contacted me the other in fact and said "Hi Jono, Is it true you have m/\d l33t sk1llz? Power to the brother. Ubuntu FTW. See my website myspace.com/sabdfl"12:39
kylemHobbsee, if it makes you feel any better, he's connected to internal irc from the same host. :)12:39
Hobbseekylem: right :)12:39
jonoHobbsee: that may in fact be lies what I just said12:39
Fujitsukylem: You /must/ have been hacked.12:39
Hobbseejono: yeah yeah :P12:39
Hobbseesabdfl: for the world, i believe12:39
jonosabdfl: For The Win12:39
jonosabdfl: the kids of today seem to use it12:39
ajmitchjono: I wonder how much we'd need to get him to drink to say that :)12:39
jonoI don't get it either12:39
jonoajmitch: sounds like a challenge12:40
Fujitsujono: I'm a kid of today, and I had no idea what it means.12:40
Hobbseeoh wah.12:40
FujitsuSo there.12:40
jonoFujitsu: obviously not "l33t" enough12:40
jonoHobbsee: how much does the Kubuntu community post to the fridge?12:40
Hobbseejono: close to nothing.12:40
jonoHobbsee: I am looking to get it fixed up12:40
jonoHobbsee: any particular reasons?12:41
Hobbseejono: mainly because we post the stuff direct to kubuntu.org12:41
jonoHobbsee: right12:41
Hobbseewhich only Riddell has access to, currnetly, incidently12:41
Hobbseeor Riddell blogs directly, so appears on planet12:41
jonoHobbsee: do you feel the fridge feels ubuntu/kubuntu/edubuntu or just ubuntu?12:41
Hobbseeargh.  this supertux bug...and email...12:41
Hobbseejono: at the moment, i dont even read the fridge - it seems that planet has depreciated the fridge12:43
Hobbseeit likely hasnt, but it's not active enough to be a snapshot of what's going on12:43
jonoHobbsee: yeah, I get the same views from some people, looking to fix this up a bit, and see how the marketing team can feed it better12:44
Hobbseeit's not even mentioning that UDS has been announced - at the minimum, the stuff from ubuntu-devel-announce should probably be on there, tc12:44
=== Hobbsee ponders the original question
jonothis is what I am looking to fix12:45
jonothe fridge team is a little informal right now, it needs a leader and a roadmap12:45
jonoand its a sexy job, I am sure a loving leader is out there12:45
Hobbseei'm trying to figure out what of kubuntu should go on there12:45
Hobbseemaybe our testing team, or something, once that's ramped up a bit.12:46
Hobbseeat the moment, it talks conferences, teams, and asking people questions, from what i'm gathering, browsing it now - how would kubuntu fit into that?  (apart from the obvious of one of us answering questions)12:46
Hobbseejono: sexy job hey?  interesting description :P12:48
jonoHobbsee: I reckon so, sexier than glibc maintenance12:48
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ajmitchthat's not too hard12:49
StevenKjono: Oh come on, toolchain hackers get all the chicks.12:49
canine_koujiI'm wanting to create a couple programs for ubuntu. I'm not sure if anyone has done this already, so I'm checking. Has anyone here been working on a program or configuration application for GNOME for Windows services integration?12:50
ajmitchStevenK: oh is that what I have to work on?12:51
canine_koujiI do know how to integrate by hand, but for others.. I want them to be able to drink the ubuntu kool-aid ;)12:51
ajmitchcanine_kouji: what do you mean by windows services integration?12:51
lotusleafcanine_kouji: you mean like what kcontrol has for wine?12:51
canine_koujiajmitch: set up certain settings like active directory.12:51
ajmitchoh right12:52
canine_koujiadding the machine to the network12:52
StevenKajmitch: :-P12:52
=== ajmitch has been working on that
canine_koujiis there anything I can work on?12:52
=== ajmitch still has to do some tidying so that the code is hackable by more than just me :)
canine_koujispecifically with this. I would consider it a very valuable feature. MacOSX already has an application.12:52
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ajmitchthe code is in feisty, just not very good right now12:53
canine_koujiajmitch: if I can read Indian code, I can read your code ;)12:53
ajmitchin universe12:53
canine_koujiajmitch: would you have a application name I can use to find this application?12:53
_ionWhat is Indian code? :-)12:53
canine_kouji_ion: code which comes from Rent a Coders from India.12:54
kylemc code tikka masala12:54
_ionI'd think there are competent as well as incompetent coders in India just like in any other country. :-)12:54
ajmitchthe package is authtool, it's written in python, and I'm rewriting some reasonable sized chunks right now12:55
canine_kouji_ion: more code I read comes from India, I'm sure the college kiddies here in the US are just as illiterate and incompetant.12:55
canine_koujiajmitch: awsome :) My favorite language12:55
_ionfrom __future__ import ruby12:55
canine_koujiusing gtk, right?12:55
canine_kouji_ion: I'm waiting on YARV12:56
StevenK_ion: Have you seen 'from __future__ import braces' ?12:56
canine_kouji_ion: koichi has been very calm in implementing the byte code compiler for rb -> rbc for me. Ruby is almost there.12:56
_ionstevenk: Is there an actual implementation? :-)12:56
_ioncanine_kouji: Yeah, YARV should be good.12:57
StevenK_ion: It's a more a joke.12:57
canine_koujiajmitch: will authtool be included in ubuntu by default in future releases?12:58
StevenK>>> from __future__ import braces12:58
StevenKSyntaxError: not a chance12:58
_ionAh, hehe. :-)12:58
ajmitchcanine_kouji: hopefully :)12:58
canine_koujiajmitch: I hope so too. to clarify, does GNOME have a smb browser?12:59
canine_koujiajmitch: the smb browser is another one of the points of joining the network, to be able to access computers.12:59
kylemnautilus with gnomevfs.12:59
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canine_kouji:) authtool is a dream come true01:01
ajmitchmost of what I'm doing is configuring pam, winbind, nsswitch.conf, etc01:02
canine_koujiajmitch: you know of anyone working on a "add printer" for "look in directory"?01:02
ajmitchI still have to do the little things like the joining of the domain with 'net ads join'01:02
ajmitchnope, I haven't dealt with printer stuff01:02
Hobbseeyay, X didnt die.01:03
canine_koujiits just one of those "another cool features" OSX doesn't have look in directory, but it can scan for the extraneous data the printers send across the network for detection.01:03
ajmitchyes, cups can do that on ubuntu01:03
Fujitsuajmitch: CUPS doesn't do Avahi-stuff, does it?01:04
ajmitcheg in the printer config tool, there's a 'detect LAN printers'01:04
ajmitchFujitsu: I can't recall if it does yet or not01:04
canine_koujiajmitch: I see it ;)01:04
FujitsuI believe it doesn't.01:04
ajmitchoh well01:04
Fujitsu'tis unfortunate.01:04
ajmitchsomething for Lathiat to fix :)01:04
canine_koujilooking in active directory for printers would be one of those features needed for the corp env :/01:05
=== ajmitch wonders why his connection to nz.archive.ubuntu.com is crap
canine_koujiajmitch: gremlins :)01:05
ajmitchnah, it's going to the main archive01:05
ajmitchI think because the nz mirror isn't usable for many people01:06
ajmitchdue to isp's peering squabbles01:06
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Lathiatis there an IX over there?01:08
Lathiatwhats it called?01:08
ajmitchand telecom & telstraclear are the main two who refuse to peer nciely01:08
Lathiatoh, yes01:08
ajmitchWIX, and APE are the 2 main ones01:08
Lathiatits the same here01:08
Lathiatthe big ones don't peer01:08
Lathiatbecause they dont need 01:08
Lathiattelstra/optus dont peer at any of the WAIX or PIPEs01:08
FujitsuSame in AU, neither Telstra nor Optus do.01:08
Lathiatbecause they have prestigous tier-1 status :)01:09
FujitsuSooo annoying.01:09
ajmitchwe also have smaller ones, with rather humourous names01:09
Lathiatits dumb01:09
Lathiatits the big players throwing there wait around01:09
Lathiatat the detrement of the internet as a whole01:09
Lathiatit sucks01:09
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Hobbseedamned thing02:31
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saddevhi, I've a development policy question07:23
saddevMono is able to run most applications that were written using the  IDE editor Visual Studio .NET 2005. If I'm developing an application that helps administering Ubuntu, and I write it with VS.NET. Granted that it has to work under Mono, would that application be considered for inclusion in Ubuntu, or there is some policy that prevents this because of VS.NET?07:25
Treenakssaddev: It probably should be compileable in Ubuntu as well07:26
Treenaksusing mono07:27
Treenaksas long as it does that, IDEs/editors don't really matter I think :)07:27
saddevok, so as long as msc is able to compile it under ubuntu, it won't matter that the design part of the app will be full of autogenerated Microsoft code?07:27
saddevand can I ask you another question about the inclusion process?07:29
Treenaksautogenerated code07:30
Treenaksyou should read the license of VS.NET what the license of generated code is..07:30
Treenaks+and figure out07:30
saddevso forget about Mono, say that I develop an app for Ubuntu (be it Mono, Python, etc...). If I want it to be part of the standard Ubuntu repository, how hard is it?07:30
Treenakssaddev: not hard (but we prefer to get new# apps through Debian)07:31
saddevMicrosoft license... poor me. It's going to be hell! I better just use glade or GTK#07:31
Treenakssaddev: monodevelop ;)07:31
saddevTrennaks: yes, that's what I'm looking into07:31
saddevTrennaks: so a built open source application can be submitted for inclusion in Debian07:32
saddevand then picked up by Ubuntu?07:32
Treenaksit will automatically be picked up by ubuntu on the next release, or if it's before the freeze, you can ask for it to be included.07:32
Treenaks(Ubuntu syncs from debian unstable when starting to prepare a new release)07:33
saddevTreenaks: sounds very reasonable07:33
saddevTreenaks: I know it sounds silly. But being a developer I'd like to contribute with some cool little app or utility. Do you have any idea about what I could develop? Something that is currently missing from Ubuntu. perhaps?07:34
Treenakssaddev: uh.. no idea :)07:34
saddevleaving the hard part to ESR who just joined Ubuntu :-)07:35
saddevTrennaks: thanks. In what do you program if i may ask?07:35
Treenakswhatever I need :)07:36
Treenaksnot much atm07:36
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niktariscjwatson, hi, can ubiquity create a root account in feisty ?03:36
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towolfugh, fc-cache keeps strangling my system after an X-related update yesterday. an infinite loop or something?04:33
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towolfit must be related to Type1 fonts because when I move gsfonts and some others away it runs through.04:36
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sladenis Jono going to show up at FOSDEM, people are asking for him04:45
cjwatsonniktaris: not yet, no04:45
mjg59sladen: No04:45
cjwatsonniktaris: might be a reasonable thing to add to the Advanced tab, or maybe somewhere else, dunno04:45
sladenmjg59: funky, ta.04:46
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mjg59cjwatson: I've just been chatting to the parted maintainer - the current upstream code is supposed to handle synchronising the gpt and mbr tables04:46
cjwatsonthough we need to get refit building on amd64 *anyway*, so it may not be worth ripping out the code we already have in place04:48
cjwatsonunless there are other relevant things we need from upstream parted04:48
mjg59Why do we need refit?04:48
cjwatsonwell, gnu-efi04:49
cjwatsonrefit's easy after that, aiui04:49
mjg59We've got no way of modifying EFI flags or usefully blessing it in the installer, have we?04:49
cjwatsonI just have an aversion to upgrading parted to new upstreams after UVF04:49
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cjwatsonit has a habit of breaking04:50
mjg59Yeah I'll see if I can find the patch04:50
cjwatsonI guess I'd be happy with that then, yeah04:50
cjwatsonwould have to rip code back out of partman-efi, but there04:50
mjg59I think worrying about gnu-efi is probably unnecessary04:50
cjwatson(and yes we still need partman-efi to handle the EFI system partition logic)04:50
mjg59Also need to send him the HFS+ resize patch04:51
cjwatsonif Kyle's discussion with linux-ide goes well, we'll need to patch parted for HPA handling too04:51
mjg59Hm. Not getting anywhere in finding this code.04:52
mjg59Need to try to find Dave Cantrell04:53
kylemdave cantrel..04:55
kylemwhy is his name familiar.04:55
mjg59RH developer04:55
kylemcjwatson, assuming i get any discussion at all :/ (posting on a friday was probably a bad idea :)04:57
cjwatsonmaybe I should have deferred my followup ;-)05:06
cjwatsonAlan's point was a good one, certainly, and needs to be dealt with05:06
cjwatsonkylem: maybe post a followup early next week with a patch adding an ioctl to let you find out the non-HPA size, and see what they say?05:08
kylemproblem with adding an interface is it has to stand th etest of time05:08
cjwatsonit does feel like a bit of an excessively specific hack; I don't know if there's a more generic concept that it could be glued into05:08
cjwatsonmaybe the right thing would be "suggested size of area covered by a new partition table on this block device"05:09
cjwatsonI need to learn more about partitioning on arches other than the big three05:10
mjg59I'd have thought a sysfs attribute was more fashionable05:10
cjwatsonwell, BLKGETSIZE is an iocttl05:10
kylemmjg59, block device crap is all ioctls05:10
cjwatsonshould really live in the same place as it's the same kind of thing05:10
mjg59cjwatson: Not utterly sold on that argument :)05:11
mjg59But yeah. Adding a sysfs interface to block device magic is probably a job for later.05:11
cjwatsonis BLKGETSIZE available via sysfs?05:11
cjwatsonif not, I don't think something like it should appear in sysfs until BLKGETSIZE does too05:11
cjwatsonotherwise you end up with random scattered bits of interface, none alike05:11
niktariscjwatson, how about using a checkbox in the user creation dialogbox? "Create root account?"05:12
cjwatsonwhich OK is kind of what the kernel already is but I don't think it should be encouraged05:12
kylemperhaps "BLKGETMAXSIZE"05:12
cjwatsonkylem: maybe but that would break old partitioning tools wouldn't it?05:12
cjwatsonassuming that you mean "get the full size of the block device including HPAs"05:12
cjwatsonold parted wouldn't be able to work with partition tables overlapping the HPA05:12
kylemcould return a tuple? :)05:13
cjwatsonniktaris: could work, feel free to try it out and send a patch05:13
cjwatsonniktaris: not sure I'm entirely happy with it being presented by default but that's not a firm no05:13
kylemi don't really have a preference, in fact, my preference would really be to just do what the legacy code did.05:13
niktariscjwatson, hehe will try05:13
cjwatsonkylem: what does that mean though? return the size of the block device including HPA (since AIUI that's what the old code did)?05:14
mjg59This network is shonky05:14
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mjg59Legacy behaviour is for the HPA to be utterly disabled and all ioctls to behave as if it had never been enabled, AFAIK05:14
cjwatsonmjg59: meaning that parted will see a block device whose extents include the HPA?05:15
cjwatsonor the other way round? for some reason I am finding the terminology confusing05:16
mjg59Disabling the HPA means that the host no longer protectes the area05:16
mjg59Resulting in it becoming available05:16
mjg59That is, yes, parted will see a block device whose extents include the HPA (ie, the entire disk)05:17
cjwatsonright, so if it's enabled, how would parted work with a partition table created while the HPA was disabled and overlapping the HPA?05:18
cjwatsonwould there be a separate bit of interface to disable the HPA again, or would the kernel detect that such a partition table was there and disable the HPA automatically?05:18
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cjwatsonmaybe I misunderstood Alan then - if the HPA is enabled, as far as creation of new partitions go, all I want to know is how big the block device is now - I don't want to deliberately create partition tables extending into the HPA05:19
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mjg59drivers/ide will *always* disable the HPA before userspace starts05:20
mjg59There is currently no interface for userspace to know it was ever there, other than parsing dmesg05:20
cjwatsonwhich means that legacy partition tables will be broken05:20
mjg59When moving to libata, yes05:20
mjg59That's the issue05:20
cjwatsonI think the kernel should detect such legacy partition tables and re-disable the HPA05:20
cjwatsonsince nothing else can05:20
cjwatsonwhy not?05:20
mjg59To maintain consistency, the libata behaviour should be to always disable the HPA05:21
kylemthe hpa detection happens on device discovery05:21
mjg59parted could then be enhanced to suggest that you not create or delete partitions in the HPA05:21
kylempartition tables occur way afterwards05:21
cjwatsonok, then I agree that libata should always disable the HPA, since otherwise you're fucked05:21
kylemthe problem is SATA.05:22
kylemwhich is almost universally libata based.05:22
kylemwhich means partition tables are based on the reduced size of disk.05:22
cjwatsonthere's no compatibility issue with moving from an enabled HPA to a disabled HPA, is there?05:22
kylemit won't break, but people might fuck their shit up when they see "free space" in their partition tables.05:22
cjwatsonthe partition table will just only specify a reduced range of the disk05:22
cjwatsonthey won't, the free space is bounded in the partition table, isn't it?05:23
mjg59parted will notice that the partition table doesn't cover the entire disk and mark the remainder as free space, no?05:23
kylemhmm. i don't know. could experiment and find out.05:23
kylemmjg59, that was my thought.05:23
cjwatsoner, I need to remember the partition table format05:23
mjg59I thought the mbr table just contained partition sizes, rather than attempting to define disk geometry?05:24
cjwatsonmm, you're right, it doesn't contain the disk size, annoyingly05:25
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cjwatsonyou could funt BLKGETSIZE to lie05:25
cjwatsonbut again that would break partition tables that deliberately use the HPA05:26
cjwatsonso you need to teach parted, fdisk, and everything else to know about the HPA double-quick ;-)05:26
cjwatsonhave fun05:27
kylemmjg59, does the HPA region typically exist in the partition table?05:27
kylemi can't recall what my ibm had.05:27
cjwatsonor add a userspace interface to enable/disable the HPA and then at least a workaround is available05:29
mjg59cjwatson: Surely always disabling the HPA without providing any intelligence is no worse than the current situation?05:29
cjwatsonmjg59: depends how vital the contents of the HPA are05:30
cjwatsonif the BIOS relies on it ...05:30
kylemiirc it's used for BIOS suspend on some old thinkpads.05:31
kylemer, hibernate.05:31
mjg59cjwatson: As I said, how is it worse than the current situation?05:31
mjg59If people were breaking stuff, we'd already have heard about it05:31
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cjwatsonwith the current situation you can't break your HPA on fresh installation05:32
mjg59Yes you can05:32
cjwatson(if it's using libata)05:32
cjwatsonI'm not convinced we'd have heard about it05:32
mjg59But you've been able to for anything using drivers/ide up until now05:32
cjwatsonI have nowhere near enough bandwidth to keep up with all the installer bugs05:32
kylemthe problem currently is that anyone upgrading to feisty and using libata-pata will suddenly not be able to use their disk.05:32
kylemand will scream in panic as they think their /home is fried...05:33
mjg59kylem: It's presumably not hard to limit this to pata, even if that's not what upstream want?05:33
kylemmjg59, it is indeed not terribly difficult.05:33
mjg59That then leaves us where we were pre-feisty05:33
cjwatsonanyway, must go tidy the house some more05:33
kylemi can read cable type and limit to 40p/80p PATA.05:33
kylemi can also add an ioctl to increase the size and revalidate the disk05:34
kylemthat way if we wanted to let ubiquity or something detect it and provide a clickbox to disable it, we could.05:34
kylemugh, then we have to put it into the initramfs and.. oh bother.05:34
kylempartitioning is hard. let's go shopping.05:35
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kylemmjg59, i'm tempted to say we could just leave HPA enabled wholesale for new installs...06:06
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kylemhmm. did ubuntu disable middle click in firefox? bummer.06:20
Mithrandirit's been disabled since warty or so.06:20
Mithrandirjust set middleMouse.contentLoadUrl to true06:20
kylemheh, was looking through the changelog for that.06:21
phoenix24but simple tweaks can enable it.06:21
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mjg59kylem: How do you define a new install?06:37
kylemthinking more about it, i don't think there's a single good way to do this.06:38
mjg59I think the least worst is to do what drivers/ide did in the kernel, and make userspace smarter06:38
kylemi'm trying to determine call chain when the disk gets revalidated from ioctl.06:40
kylemto make sure i'm handling it correctly.06:40
kylemmjg59, one of the thoughts i had was to just stow way the full disk size, and if there's a BIO which gets rejected as within limited_size <= x <= hpa_size, disable hpa and retry the bio.06:41
mjg59kylem: Sounds distressingly hacky06:42
kylemno fucking clue how feasible it is.06:42
kylemalternatively, hack the msdos partition (ugh, i guess efi too) code to see if the results make sense and unclip the disk...06:43
kylemthere's sata disks using drivers/ide too, which is also a problem with just basing it on cable type.06:43
mjg59We lose heavily.06:44
kylemeveryone loses.06:44
mjg59Whoever wins, etc.06:44
kylemi don't know how much of this should be solved for feisty, maybe we should defer libata-pata until it's more mature...06:45
mjg59Well, given that we can trivially ensure that it has much the same level of functionality as it had in edgy...06:45
kylemi don't know that the error recovery is as good in drivers/ata yet.06:47
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tsmithehi - if i have a package waiting on NEW, but it has a bug, is it possible to have a fixed version uploaded on top?10:26
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jdongmjg59: any emotional attachment to xinerama on xgl?11:54
jdongmjg59: we need new xgl from git to compile against xorg 7.2....11:54
jdongand that xinerama patch no workie11:54
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