[03:07] <nextstep> i would ike to contribute with some ubuntu artwork ideas. where should i start?
[03:10] <nextstep> posted on ubuntuforums>>> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=369414
[03:10] <nextstep> somebody?
[03:10] <nextstep> anybody?
[03:21] <yharrow> have you joined the mailing list?
[03:22] <nextstep> not yet. i have just completed the launchpad registration
[03:22] <nextstep> i'm kinda new to this whole thing, you know...
[03:27] <nextstep> ok, i have joined it
[03:28] <nextstep> now where should i actually submit it?
[04:12] <yharrow> you should get an email telling you where to send suggestions and stuff, Im not an expert either btw
[04:12] <yharrow> just joined :)
[04:13] <nextstep> well i just posted a mail, so i hope i've done the right stuff:)
[04:17] <yharrow> ok. I hope so too :)
[04:34] <nextstep> ok, i've done it roght...phew...
[04:34] <yharrow> yay
[04:36] <nextstep> have you got the mail?
[04:50] <yharrow> nextstep its a mailing list so no, I suppose its on the server
[04:50] <yharrow> mebbe some others got it
[04:50] <yharrow> I can go check
[04:58] <troy_s> nextstep: Your best bet is GnomeLook
[05:07] <nextstep> what do you mean?
[05:57] <nextstep> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=369414
[06:08] <troy_s> nextstep: I mean that sabdfl won't be considering it.  Sabdfl likes the tan, etc.
[06:08] <troy_s> I wouldn't be wasting more time, but again, that is strictly my opinion and probably not even close to reality.
[07:01] <h4writer> kwwii, I was trying to change yelp, but it wont work. The files that I understand don't have the configuration and the other (mainly .c, .cpp, .h) files I don't understand.
[07:24] <h4writer> kwwii, okey I think it might work. It is becoming clear to me, what what is
[07:25] <h4writer> got a question, in yelp-common is standing:  </xsl:text>
[07:25] <h4writer>       <xsl:value-of select="$yelp.color.gray.bg"/><xsl:text>;
[07:25] <h4writer> where is $yelp.color.gray.bg coming from?
[07:40] <troy_s> h4writer: It could be GTK
[07:41] <h4writer> do you now where I can change the value of $yelp.color.gray.bg
[07:41] <h4writer> or may I delete the line and type my colors in it?
[08:04] <h4writer> andreasn, you said you would look for the icon in help center
[08:04] <h4writer> I think that isn't needed
[08:04] <h4writer> because it is already in help center
[08:04] <h4writer> coded
[08:11] <nextstep> troy_s: if nobody would bother on wasting his time on things that weren't worthy at the moment, we wouldn't have linux now if you know what i mean
[08:22] <nextstep> anyway, i have been shocked about the whole mentality....isn't Ubuntu for human beings developed by human beings? i think users should get involved into the development, else it is just like M$ or whatever we switched from
[08:24] <BHSPitMonkey> Ubuntu for human beings is being developed by developers- NOT by human beings.
[08:27] <nextstep> right...but aren't developers human beings? anyway i was referring to the artwork here...
[08:30] <troy_s> nextstep
[08:30] <troy_s> nextstep Ubuntu is not Linux.
[08:30] <nextstep> yes?
[08:30] <troy_s> nextstep Having a bit of experience with the artwork in Ubuntu, I can tell you that it is a rather futile proposition at the moment.
[08:31] <troy_s> You are welcome to try, but that said, certain underlying issues are hindering the progress.
[08:32] <nextstep> well, i was whining about feisty, which, unlike edgy excluded the possibility of trying
[08:33] <troy_s> Yep
[08:34] <troy_s> Ultimately sabdfl's design direction is what is crippling the development of Ubuntu art and design.
[08:34] <nextstep> now that's an issue worth talking about
[08:35] <troy_s> Edgy was supposed to be the _beginning_ of  a process development, and was kaiboshed by sabdfl because, despite liking various elements along the way, he was unable / unwilling to direct the work.
[08:35] <nextstep> ubuntu's artwork should conform to the users' tastes
[08:35] <troy_s> Well that is a rather vague statement to say the least.
[08:35] <troy_s> I would suggest that Ubuntu needs a clearly outlined target audience, yes.
[08:36] <troy_s> Everyone from a six year old to a grandmother is a 'user', and you can appreciate that the broad range of 'users' within that classification will have different needs, different aesthetic tendencies, etc.
[08:37] <troy_s> Without the clear outlining of an audience, we will forever be bound to unassuming middle-grey gradients.
[08:38] <nextstep> but where isthe advance in that case?
[08:39] <troy_s> There isn't any
[08:40] <troy_s> Ultimately, the person footing the bill -- sabdfl -- is calling the shots on art and design.
[08:40] <troy_s> His opinions and experience are, at this moment, all that matter.
[08:40] <nextstep> then what is the purpose of the artwork team?
[08:40] <troy_s> There is little hope without a strong community uprising to change this.
[08:40] <troy_s> There is none.
[08:41] <troy_s> Other than to derive community driven themes and be a source of technical related information.
[08:41] <troy_s> All of the work you have seen in Ubuntu, with the exception of the LOGO in Edgy and the wallpaper in Edgy (Author unknown), have been _funded_ development.
[08:41] <troy_s> As in paid to produce
[08:42] <troy_s> It is the same this cycle as well, with Ken helming the work.
[08:43] <troy_s> And yes, it is a sad state of affairs when the buntu's are known for their wonderful distribution abilities but also infamous for their art and design direction.
[08:43] <troy_s> It is mediocre and tepid in delivery.
[08:44] <nextstep> yes, but community-driven themes are NOT the default look
[08:45] <nextstep> newbies look at the default look
[08:45] <nextstep> fedora did it...why ubuntu is not able to?
[08:45] <nextstep> fc7 is gorgeous
[08:45] <troy_s> Yes but that is produced by someone with formalized training (MFA)
[08:46] <troy_s> Ubuntu is not able to for two large reasons:
[08:46] <troy_s> 1) It is unwilling -- sabdfl directs the design and that is single handedly the weakest link.
[08:46] <troy_s> 2) Formally trained artists.
[08:47] <troy_s> When you say 'newbies' you are actually, once again, addressing a very large user group.  To be effective the design needs to more closely examine exactly who it is attempting to appeal to.
[08:47] <nextstep> i have seen on deviantart.com some works that have been...just..beatiful...90% of them aren't trained in any kind
[08:48] <troy_s> Orchestration on a higher level requires people who can think and evaluate design on a high level.
[08:48] <troy_s> Producing a singular piece of art isn't the goal here.
[08:48] <troy_s> it is a larger design pattern, and if you need further proof, have a look at Diana Fong's work.
[08:49] <troy_s> It comes from dedication and devotion to the craft and treating it as it deserves to be treated -- a serious discipline.
[08:50] <troy_s> If you look to the topic, you can see some of the considerations and like matters that need to be addressed long before you begin pushing pixels around.
[08:50] <nextstep> a larger design pattern does not match a 700MB iso file
[08:50] <troy_s> larger design pattern
[08:50] <troy_s> it has nothing to do with size.
[08:52] <nextstep> but you still need something characteristic to ubuntu, and abstraction/minimalism is the way to go, and the default wallaper does not have to be disturbing
[08:52] <troy_s> All just opinions.
[08:52] <nextstep> that's why all major OSses have minimalistic/abstract walls
[08:52] <troy_s> You are mistaken.
[08:53] <troy_s> If you look to Apple's lauded design, you will quickly see that it is evocative and communicative.
[08:53] <nextstep> but not disturbing
[08:53] <troy_s> As is the multi-million dollar Vista.  Both projects headed by very disciplined and trained individuals.
[08:53] <troy_s> "disturbing" is nothing but a relative term
[08:53] <nextstep> and years of research
[08:53] <troy_s> "One man's meat is another man's poison"
[08:54] <troy_s> The bottom line, you will be hard pressed to find a single member of the Apple design team without formal education credentials.
[08:54] <troy_s> There is a reason for that.
[08:55] <nextstep> yes, but we have to work with what we have
[08:55] <nextstep> i believe that beautiful work depends on talent, bot training
[08:55] <nextstep> art is about talent
[08:56] <troy_s> Then you are ignorant of about 2000 years of art history.
[08:56] <troy_s> Look at the most lauded artists in the past
[08:56] <troy_s> Rembrandt, Da Vinci, etc.
[08:56] <troy_s> All of them were not only formally trained but began their own schools with apprentices.
[08:57] <troy_s> Composition, perspective, colour theory, to name a few -- are all skills that must be learned and studied like carpentry.
[08:59] <nextstep> those can and must be studied but do not necessitate school/university/whatever
[08:59] <troy_s> Also, all of those traits are culturally biased.
[09:00] <troy_s> The generality is that if someone is willing to study for four or five years they will _probably_ have a fundamental discipline and belief in the craft.
[09:00] <msikma> Although I generally agree, I would find that more enticing if the graphic design graduates around here were more capable. I frequently see graduates that don't seem to have skills that would get them hired at a self-respecting graphic design company (except for internship, which admittedly is also a prerequisite).
[09:01] <troy_s> msikma: Education isn't the end.
[09:01] <troy_s> msikma: It is the beginning.
[09:01] <troy_s> rather like learning the fundamental toolset and being aware of the issues at hand.
[09:01] <troy_s> Once you have completed your education, you begin to learn the application.
[09:01] <troy_s> Dziga Vertov once said "Anyone who cares for their art seeks the essence of their own technique."  That can take a lifetime to work towards.
[09:02] <nextstep> right
[09:02] <msikma> But on one hand, you've got people who didn't go to an academy and are making excellent work after some time, and on the other hand there are people who did go to an academy and still seem to have problems making aesthetically sound designs, even after all those years. It seems that while education is very important, it's really the hard and constant labor that shapes the artist in the end.
[09:03] <msikma> Although a fundamental toolset, I do think you can reach high places without those years of formal training.
[09:03] <msikma> Just not as often as design graduates.
[09:04] <nextstep> yep, take http://deviantart for example...there are some users sitting all day in front of the computers having no special training and creating beautiful pieces of art
[09:04] <msikma> There's some great stuff on DeviantART. Although 99% of it is garb.
[09:05] <nextstep> but the 1% worths it
[09:05] <nextstep> in conclusion education is very important but not always necessary
[09:05] <msikma> The 1% that makes excelling artwork probably does go to an academy, or plans to.
[09:05] <msikma> Maybe people are just lazy.
[09:06] <nextstep> and if it only plans to it means that it is not YET educated
[09:06] <nextstep> most of them are....includeing me:D
[09:06] <msikma> Well, the thing is that even if you make excellent art, that doesn't mean it's commercially viable art.
[09:07] <msikma> I've seen some stuff on there that's very nice, but in the end not really something that I'd put in a professional portfolio.
[09:07] <msikma> They're "donuts".
[09:07] <nextstep> huh
[09:07] <msikma> Anyway, no bad words about DeviantART.
[09:07] <msikma> It's a nice site
[09:08] <troy_s> Good luck on that.
[09:08] <nextstep> what do you mean?
[09:14] <msikma> troy_s: I was looking at some specs I'm registered to, and I see that there's still a "Ubuntu title font" spec.
[09:15] <msikma> What are your thoughts on that? I personally am against changing the Ubuntu title font further except to clean up the UBUNTU letters. I think that any other use of that font besides the official logo is misuse.
[09:18] <troy_s> msikma: I think as a full typeface, it has loads of room to go.  Fundamentally though, I agree with your opinion that even the more minor splines need to be cleaned up.
[09:18] <troy_s> msikma: And yes, I 100% agree that anything beyond spelling Ubuntu with it is a horrible mistake of aesthetics.
[09:21] <msikma> "Ubuntu" is not exactly a name that you'd need to "translate".
[09:22] <msikma> E.g. "bnt" in Finnish or whichever
[09:22] <troy_s> msikma: It is still a god awful font ;)
[09:22] <troy_s> It works for the title, but that is about where it ends.
[09:22] <msikma> Yeah, it just wasn't designed for anything else
[09:24] <troy_s> agree
[09:25] <troy_s> just look at all the buttons and loco teams that use it -- it is not terribly well balanced nor spaced etc.
[09:26] <msikma> Do you think that anyone would be interested in a redesigned website?
[09:27] <msikma> I still think that the website gives a completely wrong impression of what Ubuntu is (and seems to want to be).
[09:28] <troy_s> msikma:  You know what, if it were my call, I would _certainly_ open up the creative floodgates on that.
[09:28] <troy_s> I agree... I think in terms of underlying communication, people 'come' to Ubuntu with an implied 'knowledge' -- based on the term and the tone etc.
[09:28] <troy_s> And yes, it fundamentally clashes with what shuttlebot desires it to be, which is unfortunate.
[09:29] <troy_s> I think a portion of Ubuntu's draw as an alternative is this very human/earthy/organic connotation.  It might be prudent to see where that evolves to.  That said, it will never happen.  ;)
[09:30] <troy_s> I think if you redesigned the website though, you would end up having to liase with shuttlebot on it, and in the end, you might find that your intentions might get completely warped upon getting to the destination.  If you are willing to give that a go, then try it.
[09:30] <msikma> Maybe I should mail him first
[09:31] <msikma> Ask him what _he_ thinks Ubuntu is (actually, maybe he doesn't want to explain that to every random stranger)
[09:31] <msikma> I think I have a pretty good idea of it anyway
[09:31] <troy_s> msikma: He has zero clue and certainly can't communicate it.
[09:32] <troy_s> msikma:  Believe me when I say that I have tried on even the most kindergarten level to get SOME concept of what his 'perception' is.  Ultimately, I don't believe he has one.
[09:32] <troy_s> And I have been tasked with attempting to get design direction out of a few people to build upon.
[09:32] <troy_s> He is simply a completely different beast.
[09:33] <troy_s> I can find redeeming qualities in most anyone's aesthetic choices and generally 'see' what they are trying to do.  shuttlebot, however, completely eludes me.
[09:34] <troy_s> But good luck to you if you try.  :)
[09:50] <msikma> The thing is, if I would try it, it would certainly look very different from what there is now, both aesthetically and navigationally.
[09:50] <msikma> I think that just the change alone would make people squeal.
[09:53] <troy_s> msikma: Again... low percentage investment however.
[09:54] <troy_s> msikma: Perhaps we should consider developing a working site to host community related work on?
[09:54] <troy_s> provide information, etc.
[09:55] <msikma> I think that while a separate community site is the best idea, it's primarily the official Ubuntu site itself that should rely on solid design. Community sites can "get away" with having slightly awkward designs. But they seem to consistently have at least decent designs, most of the time
[09:56] <troy_s> msikma: What I am loosely saying is that if we focus on not worrying about mainstream
[09:56] <troy_s> msikma: We can assure ourselves success on a certain level.
[09:57] <troy_s> msikma: When the reality is that 6 cycles on, Ubuntu has zero hope of providing the elements we desire.
[09:58] <msikma> hmmm
[09:59] <troy_s> msikma: Much like everything else in FOSS, ultimately, if we don't step up, we have no one to blame but ourselves.
[10:01] <troy_s> I believe there is enough skill in the community to achieve the results, but it will take execution to demonstrate it.
[10:01] <troy_s> That will require collaboration and cooperation.
[10:01] <troy_s> Even with a smaller core of people, it is likely we could generate enough work to gain a certain 'critical mass'
[10:14] <h4writer> kwwii, are you there?
[10:23] <nysosym> hi there :)
[10:23] <troy_s> FRANK
[10:23] <troy_s> fschoep!
[10:23] <nysosym> hi fschoep!!! :)
[10:23] <troy_s> ltns my friend.
[10:23] <fschoep> Hi
[10:23] <fschoep> It's been two months, figured I'd join in to chat a bit
[10:23] <troy_s> how have you been frankie?
[10:24] <nysosym> fschoep: how are u? :)
[10:24] <fschoep> well, doing fine mostly
[10:24] <fschoep> past few months were a little difficult
[10:24] <fschoep> Apparently I had mono (Pfeiffer?)
[10:24] <fschoep> so I was tired as hell and that's probably been going on for a few months
[10:25] <fschoep> I'm still recovering, but these weeks I'm feeling better and better, hopefully back at 100% in a week or two
[10:25] <fschoep> how are you lot?
[10:26] <nysosym> wow fschoep, get well soon! ;)
[10:26] <fschoep> thanks :)
[10:26] <nysosym> i'm fine so far :)
[10:26] <fschoep> great
[10:26] <fschoep> troy_s: are you around?
[10:26] <troy_s> yeah
[10:26] <troy_s> mono sucks
[10:27] <troy_s> fschoep: ?
[10:27] <fschoep> yes
[10:27] <fschoep> ?
[11:59] <h4writer> kwwii, are you there