[12:46] <flint> @schedule
[12:46] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 01 Mar 15:00: Community Question Time in #ubuntu-meeting | 01 Mar 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Mar 16:00: Kernel Team | 06 Mar 18:00: Mozilla Team | 06 Mar 20:00: MOTU meeting | 07 Mar 12:00: Edubuntu
[02:15] <juliux> @schedule berlin
[02:15] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 01 Mar 16:00: Community Question Time in #ubuntu-meeting | 01 Mar 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Mar 17:00: Kernel Team | 06 Mar 19:00: Mozilla Team | 06 Mar 21:00: MOTU meeting | 07 Mar 13:00: Edubuntu
[02:50] <T_H> hi
[03:05] <intengu> is there going to be a meeting
[03:05] <elkbuntu> intengu, in an hour by my calculation
[03:06] <intengu> elkbuntu: thanks
[03:08] <ScottK> @schedule new york
[03:08] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 01 Mar 10:00: Community Question Time in #ubuntu-meeting | 01 Mar 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Mar 11:00: Kernel Team | 06 Mar 13:00: Mozilla Team | 06 Mar 15:00: MOTU meeting | 07 Mar 07:00: Edubuntu
[03:09] <phanatic> @schedule Budapest
[03:09] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Budapest: 01 Mar 16:00: Community Question Time in #ubuntu-meeting | 01 Mar 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Mar 17:00: Kernel Team | 06 Mar 19:00: Mozilla Team | 06 Mar 21:00: MOTU meeting | 07 Mar 13:00: Edubuntu
[03:38] <JohnRobert> .
[04:00] <jono> hi all
[04:00] <jono> is anyone here for the community Q+A?
[04:00] <LoudMouthMan> Hello Jono.
[04:00] <omegabeta> Yep
[04:00] <intengu> yes
[04:00] <jono> righteo
[04:00] <Jucato> ubuntu-meeting-questions seems to be empty though...
[04:00] <jono> yeah
[04:01] <jono> lets just ask questions in here
[04:01] <Jucato> :)
[04:01] <jono> please prefix a questions with QUESTION so I can see it
[04:01] <jono> ok, does anyone want to kick off with questions?
[04:01] <omegabeta> should we start on particular topics and work our way down?
[04:01] <jono> omegabeta: no, the plan is free form
[04:01] <jono> ask any questions you like
[04:02] <jono> so, any questions?
[04:02] <Jucato> are we limited to 1-2 questions per person? :D
[04:02] <jono> nope
[04:02] <intengu> QUESTION: installed gnome main menu herd 4 in control centre groups system
[04:02] <jono> as many as you like
[04:02] <jono> intengu: thats not a question :)
[04:02] <Jucato> heh
[04:02] <LoudMouthMan> QUESTION: Jono how do you feel community is doing. at this moment ?
[04:03] <boredandblogging> why the decision to allow only approved LoCos to have canonical hosted domains and site?
[04:03] <jono> LoudMouthMan: I think things are going well, I think our community is growing, we are developing some good best practise and the teams are beginning to communicate better
[04:03] <GazzaK> QUESTION - if I am rubbish at coding and the like, is a suitable path to ubuntu membership being active on the irc channels and also being the local town's lugmaster?  will I be able to become a ubuntu member with a lack of coding/bug fixing skills?
[04:03] <jono> LoudMouthMan: but there is lots of road ahead of us and we all need to work together to share information and experience better
[04:03] <gord> QUSTION: do you see any time in the future where ubuntu community teams will get more support from canonical, for example funding to hold conferences for local businesses or some such
[04:03] <jono> part of this effort is wiki.ubuntu.com/Buildingcommunity
[04:04] <dabaR> GazzaK: is that a serious question?
[04:04] <dabaR> haha
[04:04] <dabaR> Sorry
[04:04] <omegabeta> QUESTION : How do you plan to further the ease-of-use in terms of "out of the box" installs regarding display drivers/ network productivity (installation/finding) for the people that have swtiched from Windows, this seems to be the leap and biggest issue?
[04:04] <Jucato> GazzaK: yes!
[04:04] <jono> ok
[04:04] <jono> QUESTION - if I am rubbish at coding and the like, is a suitable path to ubuntu membership being active on the irc channels and also being the local town's lugmaster?  will I be able to become a ubuntu member with a lack of coding/bug fixing skills?
[04:05] <dabaR> sup with everyone havin voice?
[04:05] <mobyli> QUESTION: herding cats. Companies make products and as such would no doubt like to influence the direction of upstream projects. How is this possible when you cannot use power directly as in a traditional corporate hierarchy?
[04:05] <jono> ubuntu membership is about proviing you are a good contributor, and if you can demonstrate commitment to the CC, you will get membership
[04:05] <jono> it is always recommended that when you apply for membership you have a good body of experience behind you - and there are lots and lots of people with experience in non-coding things such as locos, advocacy, docs etc
[04:06] <jono> QUSTION: do you see any time in the future where ubuntu community teams will get more support from canonical, for example funding to hold conferences for local businesses or some such
[04:06] <GazzaK> jono, thanks
[04:06] <jono> GazzaK: np
[04:06] <jono> Canonical try to support all teams where possible, and in reality, most teams don't need financial support but help and assistance getting off the ground
[04:07] <jono> but remember Canonical are a small company, and have a limited budget
[04:07] <JohnRobert> QUESTION: Why does totem have a video area when I'm playing a music file? I used to be able to resize it away..
[04:07] <Jucato> O.o
[04:07] <jono> so we try to plough resources into areas that are the most productive places for the money
[04:07] <jono> but yes, Canonical is always open to ideas for funding, speak to me if you want to ask
[04:07] <jono> QUESTION: why the decision to allow only approved LoCos to have canonical hosted domains and site?
[04:07] <Seveas> jono, then I have some tough questions for you later ;)
[04:08] <jono> Seveas: :)
[04:08] <jono> one of the big problems with locos and other teams is that way too much time is spent messing around setting up resources - in reality every team just needs some wiki pages and some structure, as you can see at wiki.ubuntu.com/SampleTeam
[04:08] <AnRkey> soz for being late
[04:08] <AnRkey> what i miss
[04:08] <Seveas> jono, 404 on that page
[04:09] <jono> so by restricting these resources to approved teams, it means the team has spent their time getting a team built and stable and can then offer the next level of resources
[04:09] <jono> I want to see less time arguing about CMSs and more time *building community* and *building teams* - this is part of the plan
[04:09] <juliux> Seveas, perhaps jono mean this one https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/SampleTeam
[04:09] <Seveas> juliux, gracias
[04:10] <juliux> Seveas, prego
[04:10] <jono> sorry, yep https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/SampleTeam
[04:10] <jono> QUESTION : How do you plan to further the ease-of-use in terms of "out of the box" installs regarding display drivers/ network productivity (installation/finding) for the people that have swtiched from Windows, this seems to be the leap and biggest issue?
[04:10] <Eruantalon> QUESTION: How is Canonical/Ubuntu making sure that any translations, bugfixes and other improvements are sent upstream and shared with other distros? What is done to make sure we are not duplicating the effort?
[04:10] <Jucato> QUESTION: What is the concrete role of the user community in Ubuntu development or what impact does the user community have in developmennt. How does Ubuntu try to bridge the gap between the developer and user community? For example, how do developers know features that users want or don't want vs. features that developers want or don't want? On the other hand, how are users informed on reasons for some changes or design decisions? or should
[04:10] <boredandblogging> jono, makes sense, thanks
[04:10] <Jucato> users be entitled to such information in the first place?
[04:10] <Jucato> ugh too long.. sorry
[04:11] <jono> thats more of a technical, distro team question
[04:11] <jono> but one thing that is on my radar is to improve getting feedback from the community to developers
[04:11] <JohnRobert> QUESTION: What kind of questions are we meant to be asking here (seriously)
[04:11] <mooey> :)
[04:11] <jono> one thing we *really* need to fix is ensuring people test hardware support *before* release instead of installing a new ubuntu and complaining that stuff is b0rked
[04:12] <omegabeta> JohnRobert: not ones about re-sizing totem
[04:12] <jono> QUESTION: herding cats. Companies make products and as such would no doubt like to influence the direction of upstream projects. How is this possible when you cannot use power directly as in a traditional corporate hierarchy?
[04:12] <jono> ahh cool, a herding cats question, hope you guys like the presentation btw :)
[04:13] <intengu> QUESTION: /part
[04:13] <jono> it depends on how companies want to influence upstreams - working with open source projects is the same for everyone, irrespective of whether you are a company or an individual - you need to understand the community development process - the problem with many companies is that they run in like a bull in a china shop and cause problems
[04:13] <Eruantalon> jono: Where is it?
[04:13] <jono> everyone has the potential to help upstreams, companies and individuals
[04:14] <Jucato> Eruantalon: http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=878
[04:14] <Eruantalon> Jucato: thx
[04:14] <jono> Eruantalon: http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=878
[04:14] <jono> ahh
 QUESTION: How is Canonical/Ubuntu making sure that any translations, bugfixes and other improvements are sent upstream and shared with other distros? What is done to make sure we are not duplicating the effort?
[04:15] <jono> Eruantalon: this is a distro team and Launchpad question, and I am not best to answer it - I do know that we always work to get translations, patches and fixes upstream though, but you will need to speak to the distro and launchpad teams about the specifics
[04:15] <dabaR> Eruantalon: #ubuntu-my
[04:15] <dabaR> soirry
 QUESTION: What is the concrete role of the user community in Ubuntu development or what impact does the user community have in developmennt. How does Ubuntu try to bridge the gap between the developer and user community? For example, how do developers know features that users want or don't want vs. features that developers want or don't want? On the other hand, how are users informed on reasons for some changes or design decisions? or sho
[04:15] <jono> uld users be entitled to such information in the first place?
[04:16] <Jucato> hehe sorry for the batch question :D
[04:16] <jono> users play a number of roles in ubuntu development:
[04:16] <jono>  * telling developers what they want, defining needs through use statistics etc
[04:16] <jono>  * giving feedback about ubuntu and what works and what doesnt
[04:17] <jono>  * supporting other users via lists and forums
[04:17] <daviey> QUESTION: What is being done to encourage people with coding skills into development?  Currently it seems like a cold wall between user and dev
[04:17] <jono> I am really keen to improve the connection between ubuntu developers and users, but intelligently - we can't just ask users to tell devs what they want - devs are always inundated with cracktastic ideas
[04:18] <AnRkey> QUESTION: Who decides what is important and whats not when it comes to what needs to be worked on
[04:18] <dsas> like ponies.
[04:18] <AnRkey> ?
[04:18] <Vorian> lol
[04:18] <AnRkey> rofl
[04:18] <jono> if anyone has any ideas how to improve this, do let me know - part of my role is to take your ideas and claim them as my own
[04:18] <Jucato> lol
 QUESTION: What kind of questions are we meant to be asking here (seriously)
[04:19] <juliux> JohnRobert, lol
[04:19] <Jucato> herding ideas know are we? :D
[04:19] <jono> anything about the ubuntu community
[04:19] <JohnRobert> ta
[04:19] <omegabeta> humerously enough, i just applyed updates and i cant do anything except resize this irc window, everything else is frozen
[04:19] <juliux> JohnRobert, sorry
[04:19] <omegabeta> QUESTION : How do you plan to further the ease-of-use in terms of "out of the box" installs regarding display drivers/ network productivity (installation/finding) for the people that have swtiched from Windows, this seems to be the leap and biggest issue?
 QUESTION: What is being done to encourage people with coding skills into development?  Currently it seems like a cold wall between user and dev
[04:19] <LoudMouthMan> QUESTION: I know id like to get more Face/presentation time from any developers willing to give it. is there a way a approved loco team could arrange this e.g IRC meetings or Local Lug or dinner events ?
[04:20] <jono> it is the responsibility of each team to encourage new users to join there teams, so I would like to see coder-friendly teams making an outreach effort
[04:20] <Jucato> omegabeta: that was answered already I think
[04:20] <JohnRobert> QUESTION: Alright then, is there a place where users can spew ideas that devs might look at? Rather than all over our blogs? Y'know, like 'wouldn't it be great if there was a nice gui tool for setting up number of times your ext3 fs is force checked'?
[04:20] <jono> this is another area where I would like to see solid best practise - ensuring that all teams know how to get new users
[04:20] <omegabeta> oops, my bad
 QUESTION: Who decides what is important and whats not when it comes to what needs to be worked on
[04:21] <jono> this is largely a combination of community specs, which anyone can recommend, but the final word comes from the technical board
[04:22] <jono> sensible specs with people to do the work always have a good chance, and remember you are welcome to work on projects for future inclusion
 QUESTION: I know id like to get more Face/presentation time from any developers willing to give it. is there a way a approved loco team could arrange this e.g IRC meetings or Local Lug or dinner events ?
[04:22] <AnRkey> so how do i get them to understand that my poodle is going to be killed because of my pent up rage and the fact that my MX510 has no gui config available
[04:22] <AnRkey> :P
[04:22] <jono> this is always tough
[04:22] <daviey> RE: encourage coders into dev;  I would like to see more #ubuntu-classroom lectures - going through package building and such
[04:22] <dsas> jono: Though you should mention that non-canonical people can work on what they want.
[04:22] <jono> we already demand a lot of travel from our paid developers, and Canonical are reluctant to add any more
[04:23] <AnRkey> i feel cut off from devs
[04:23] <jono> dsas: indeed
[04:23] <jono> but every dev lives somewhere, and devs should be contacted directly for speaking appearances
[04:23] <LoudMouthMan> jono: yeah we understand I was thinking of more on the local . dev down the road opportunity.
[04:23] <jono> I am also available and do the odd bit of international travel
[04:23] <dabaR> you should have said that their contact info is on launchpad, so someone can contact them and make them an offer.
[04:23] <jono> LoudMouthMan: contact them directly
[04:23] <LoudMouthMan> but get it co-ordinated in the community.
[04:23] <dsas> LoudMouthMan: we have loads of them here :) I'm sure we could sort something out.
[04:24] <jono> dabaR: I think we can all figure out how to contact people :)
[04:24] <LoudMouthMan> dsas: guadec . hmmm .
[04:24] <jono> LoudMouthMan: you can't coordinate it when their time is so thin and its a local level
[04:24] <mooey> daviey, absolutly. i have the development knowledge to fix a few bugs, but more often than not i do not because i find working with packaging hugely intimidating. its way to complex.
[04:24] <AnRkey> jono: i would gladly pay the bounty for things like a mouse gui for 10 button mice
[04:24] <jono> why have a coordinated system when most devs will only travel within their locality - that would be a system without a problem
[04:24] <AnRkey> and even for a joystick config gui
 QUESTION: Alright then, is there a place where users can spew ideas that devs might look at? Rather than all over our blogs? Y'know, like 'wouldn't it be great if there was a nice gui tool for setting up number of times your ext3 fs is force checked'?
[04:24] <AnRkey> can i do this and if so how?
[04:25] <LoudMouthMan> jono : cheers
[04:25] <Seveas> QUESTION: Where is jono's cellphone?
[04:25] <JohnRobert> ANSWER: Someplace
[04:25] <Vorian> lol Seveas
[04:26] <jono> you are welcome to contact developers and share ideas, but the best place is to register specs with your ideas - remember though that ideas are not enough - if you can back an idea up with people who can work it, it becomes a real possibility
 QUESTION: Where is jono's cellphone?
[04:26] <jono> in a black cab somewhere in London
[04:26] <Seveas> err, i meant: QUESTION: what's canonicals position on having companies/foundations/etc associated with Ubuntu?
[04:26] <jono> although I have a new one now
[04:26] <jono> woo!!
 err, i meant: QUESTION: what's canonicals position on having companies/foundations/etc associated with Ubuntu?
[04:26] <Jucato> n73 :)
[04:26] <jono> Seveas: what do you mean?
[04:26] <Jucato> QUESTION: about communication between devs and users. do you have some ideas, even wild ones on how to do this? How about plans on gathering user feedback?
[04:27] <Seveas> jono, basically locoteam sponsoring
[04:27] <dsas> Jucato: There's the forum-ambassadors spec for one.
[04:27] <Jucato> is there a channel for the forum council?
[04:27] <Vorian> Jucato, what do you mean?
[04:27] <Jucato> dsas: what happened to that spec btw?
[04:27] <juliux> Seveas, intersting question;)
[04:27] <jono> Seveas: again, there is limited funding, but in reality, most locos don't need sponsoring - they just need "stuff" - CDs, t-shirts, flyers, posters etc, which we can supply some of, and they can provide the rest
[04:27] <AnRkey> QUESTION: Jono, could you give more info on adding specs. What kind of info or "backup" can i add to help out? I can design a gui but I can't really code it yet...
[04:28] <AnRkey> so add my design ideas or what
 QUESTION: about communication between devs and users. do you have some ideas, even wild ones on how to do this? How about plans on gathering user feedback?
[04:28] <Jucato> Vorian: a place to contact them for inquiries?
[04:28] <Vorian> Jucato, forums-council@lists.ubuntu.com
[04:28] <Jucato> Vorian: thanks
[04:28] <Vorian> Jucato, np :)
[04:28] <jono> Jucato: I have lots of ideas :)
[04:29] <dsas> Jucato: It's being implemented I believe. I don't know too much about it
[04:29] <Jucato> hehe care to share? :)
[04:29] <jono> I think we need to ensure that user feedback makes sense in the scope of development
[04:29] <dabaR> well, he had the idea to make this meeting.
[04:29] <jono> let me telly you a little story as an example:
[04:29] <dabaR> oh, oh, story time!
[04:29] <Eruantalon> :-)
[04:30] <jono> every day my friend would get i from work, and the house would be freezing cold
[04:30] <jono> and every day he would get in and turn the thermostat up to full
[04:30] <jono> two other people I know did the same thing
[04:30] <daviey> QUESTION: is Canonical willing to share any more information on their business interest in Ubuntu?  Where do you envisage Canonical involvement in 5 years time?
[04:30] <jono> so I asked if other people did it, and everyone I know does it
[04:30] <dsas> jono: is that your favourite anecdote?
[04:30] <jono> its cold, so they bang the thermostat up to full
[04:31] <dsas> :)
[04:31] <jono> dsas: one of many
[04:31] <jono> banging it up to full does not make it heat up any quicker, but perception makes us do it
[04:31] <jono> so, everyone is wrong when using the thermostat - this shows that mass opinion is not always right
[04:32] <jono> what we need is intelligent feedback
[04:32] <jono> I am not saying only letting clever people share views, but getting those views intelligently and in a form in which our devs can use
[04:32] <Jucato> true... but devs usually have a very high standard for what's intelligent feedback...
[04:32] <dabaR> which is good
[04:32] <jono> Jucato: yes, but devs don't want to read 150 emails every day with ideas
[04:33] <daviey> Jucato, isn't there where bug triage's come in?
[04:33] <Jucato> I mean, from a user's perspective/knowledge, that's the only truth he knows...
[04:33] <jono> what they want is a list of ideas that are (a) doable (b) considered and (c) practical for ubuntu
[04:33] <jono> the biggest problem here is that user feedback is largely randomised - and we need to organise and present it effectively to developers
 QUESTION: Jono, could you give more info on adding specs. What kind of info or "backup" can i add to help out? I can design a gui but I can't really code it yet...
[04:34] <Jucato> that's the hard part :)
[04:34] <jono> specs are registered at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/
[04:34] <jono> they should be detailed descriptions of a feature, how it would work, what work is required to implement it eg
[04:35] <jono> etc, rahter
[04:35] <jono> rather
[04:35] <jono> each spec has a wiki page associated with it
[04:35] <jono> that is where the spec should be fleshed out
[04:35] <AnRkey> jono: whould holding poodles for ransom until my demands for a mouse gui are met work?
[04:35] <jono> we encourage the community to register specs, and these are discussed at the ubuntu developer summit
[04:36] <jono> AnRkey: poodle abuse is not a good technique
[04:36] <Eruantalon> AnRkey: Do you really have a mouse with 10 buttons?
[04:36] <AnRkey> brb counting
[04:36] <jono> AnRkey: but a detailed spec with how it would work, be designed and some efforts in finding developers to hack on it would do wonders :)
[04:36] <AnRkey> 8 buttons
[04:36] <jono> right, out of questions
[04:36] <jono> anything else?
[04:36] <AnRkey> 2 extra functions
[04:36] <AnRkey> wheelup and wheeldown
[04:36] <AnRkey> 10 total functions
[04:37] <AnRkey> and i USE them all
[04:37] <Eruantalon> wow
[04:37] <daviey> QUESTION: is Canonical willing to share any more information on their business interest in Ubuntu?  Where do you envisage Canonical involvement in 5 years time?
[04:37] <AnRkey> in linux i use 7 of them
 QUESTION: is Canonical willing to share any more information on their business interest in Ubuntu?  Where do you envisage Canonical involvement in 5 years time?
[04:37] <AnRkey> Eruantalon: get an mx510 or 518 from logitech and see for yourself
[04:37] <AnRkey> i am in love with these mice
[04:38] <AnRkey> they make me feel wark when i get the latest version :D
[04:38] <jono> AnRkey: can you take the discussion elsewhere
[04:38] <jono> cheers
[04:38] <AnRkey> jono: sorry
[04:38] <frafu> maybe there should be a chart with all the ideas and a little description of their status (rejected, adopted, unconsidered yet,...). The users with new ideas could consult the chart to see whether it really is a new idea
[04:38] <jono> the interests are largely what you see - developing ubuntu, providing support and business services, working with other companies to support ubuntu, hardware relationships etc
[04:38] <jono> there is no devious or secret plan, at least that I am aware of :P
[04:38] <Eruantalon> jono: That'
[04:39] <Eruantalon> s because you're not inner circle yet!
[04:39] <jono> its always about making ubuntu a product that we can derive revenue from
[04:39] <AnRkey> QUESTION: what about a comunity voting system for working out each specs importance?
[04:39] <jono> Eruantalon: hehe, I am pretty close to the center and its all good :)
 QUESTION: what about a comunity voting system for working out each specs importance?
[04:39] <daviey> jono, i appreciate there is no devious plan - i believe that.  But surely Canonical can't afford to fund it forever
[04:40] <jono> AnRkey: thats a popularity contest and its not the spirit of free software - you could get one spec called "Death To All Kittens with KDeath in Kubuntu" and get 5000 wackos to support it and it goes in
[04:40] <jono> specs and ideas should go in based on merit and the direction of ubuntu
[04:40] <jono> daviey: sure, we need to be a profitable company, and Canonical has hired a business team to develop these services - training, OEM, ISV, business services, support etc
[04:41] <daviey> jono, thaank you
[04:41] <AnRkey> QUESTION: how is the comminity involved in the choices for which spec to work on and how important it is?
[04:41] <jono> we offer the typical linux distro services,  but there is a lot of work in getting that infrastructure up and running
[04:41] <jono> part of my work is to always ensure the link between Canonical <--> Community is clear
[04:41] <jono> daviey: np :)
 QUESTION: how is the comminity involved in the choices for which spec to work on and how important it is?
[04:42] <jono> AnRkey: each community member works on what they want to - they decide is fun and interesting and work on it
[04:42] <jono> any other questions?
[04:42] <AnRkey> jono: so i need to inspire a dev to work on it then ? :)
[04:43] <daviey> AnRkey, write up the spec, draw a sketch and see what happens
[04:43] <jono> AnRkey: write a detail spec about how you would like it to work, and what work needs doing and then go out there and encourage someone to work on it :)
[04:43] <jono> AnRkey: look at the existing specs
[04:43] <jono> to see how it works
[04:43] <Jucato> AnRkey: usually. you either find someone who has the same itch as you, or scratch it yourself eventually :)
[04:43] <daviey> QUESTION: Would the council consider bounty projects, through launchpad, with the proceeds going to ubuntu
[04:43] <AnRkey> jono: thanks for your time, i hope i was not too annoying
[04:44] <jono> of course not AnRkey :)
 QUESTION: Would the council consider bounty projects, through launchpad, with the proceeds going to ubuntu
[04:44] <jono> bounties from who?
[04:45] <daviey> users
[04:45] <Jucato> rich users...
[04:45] <jono> right
[04:45] <daviey> ie AnRkey wants something and is willing to give say $1 - it would help
[04:45] <Eruantalon> QUESTION: Has it occured to Canonical that if you are really succesful in making Ubuntu a great distro then you will have trouble making money of support...(Hmm ironically my computer chrashed while writing this question)
[04:45] <jono> not a question for me really, thats a decision for the Launchpad and technical board - I don't see a problem myself though - don;t we support bounties for products in LP?
[04:45] <AnRkey> QUESTION: OK last one... Can I sponsor a bounty? So choose a spec and pay it's bounty on behalf of the community?
 QUESTION: Has it occured to Canonical that if you are really succesful in making Ubuntu a great distro then you will have trouble making money of support...(Hmm ironically my computer chrashed while writing this question)
[04:46] <jono> Eruantalon: haha, thats always the problem, but no vendor in the world has made software that easy to use - there will always be support requirements
 QUESTION: OK last one... Can I sponsor a bounty? So choose a spec and pay it's bounty on behalf of the community?
[04:46] <jono> AnRkey: sure, anyone can set a bounty :)
[04:46] <jono> ok I think we are done
[04:46] <jono> seems like all the questions are in :)
[04:46] <AnRkey> ok outa here
[04:46] <AnRkey> thanks again :)
[04:46] <Jucato> that was fast :)
[04:47] <jono> this community Q+A will be a monthly meeting
[04:47] <AnRkey> ta
[04:47] <GazzaK> thanks jono, good meeting \o/
[04:47] <Eruantalon> same time and place?
[04:47] <mooey> thank you, jono
[04:47] <JosefK> good timing on my behalf ^^
[04:47] <Jucato> thanks jono!!
[04:47] <jono> thanks all :)
[04:48] <stapel> a meeting that doesn't run into overtime...that's a first
[04:48] <jono> thanks all, see you at the next meeting :)
[04:48] <daviey> jono, unless i see you first ;)
[04:48] <jono> bye all :)
[04:48] <jono> :)
[06:11] <nixternal> @schedule chicago
[06:11] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 01 Mar 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Mar 09:00: Kernel Team | 06 Mar 12:00: Mozilla Team | 06 Mar 14:00: MOTU meeting | 07 Mar 06:00: Edubuntu | 08 Mar 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[09:54] <pitti> hi
[09:55] <seb128_> hey pitti
[09:55] <seb128_> brb
[09:55] <dholbach> hiya
[09:55] <cjwatson> evening
[09:56] <seb128_> re
[09:56] <kwwii> hi
[09:57] <heno> hi
[09:58] <iwj__> Hi.
[09:58] <heno> kwwii: do you put artwork files somewhere? I'd like to steal some for the WinFOSS work
[09:59] <pochu> @now madrid
[09:59] <Ubugtu> Current time in Europe/Madrid: March 01 2007, 21:59:08 - Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team
[09:59] <kwwii> heno: until now I have them all on my disk, although the gdm is mainly svg
[09:59] <heno> e.g. the edubuntu tarball is now here: http://people.ubuntu.com/~henrik/winfoss/feisty/edubuntu/current/
[09:59] <kwwii> heno: I can send you the logo file for gdm, that might be helpful
[09:59] <heno> kwwii: that would be great thanks
[09:59] <cjwatson> I'll add the Edubuntu tarball into cdimage as soon as I've dug into the report about WinFOSS not appearing at all
[09:59] <kwwii> heno: the wallpaper is also svg
[09:59] <asac> hi all
[10:00] <heno> cjwatson: right, cool. I filed a cdimage bug this time
[10:01] <Riddell> hi
[10:03] <Keybuk> fabbione, Mithrandir: ping
[10:03] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: You sent me a contentless ping.  This is a contentless pong.  Please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I am around.
[10:03] <fabbione> pong
[10:04] <cjwatson> Mithrandir: I think chiefly we want you to be around ;-)
[10:04] <cjwatson> heno: ta
[10:04] <cjwatson> mdz: here?
[10:04] <mdz> yep
[10:04] <Mithrandir> 21:58  * Mithrandir pongs.
[10:04] <mdz> missing anyone?
[10:04] <Mithrandir> cjwatson: not my fault Scott's not paying attention. :-P
[10:04] <cjwatson> heh
[10:04] <cjwatson> bdmurray: here?
[10:04] <tkamppeter> ping
[10:04] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: sorry, missed that
[10:05] <cjwatson> BenC: here?
[10:05] <BenC> cjwatson: definitely
[10:05] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: actually, x-chat missed that too, cause you were dim grey :p
[10:05] <bdmurray> cjwatson: yes
[10:05] <cjwatson> doko,kylem,pkl_,rtg: here?
[10:05] <pkl_> yes
[10:05] <kylem> ACK
[10:05] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: I'm good at hiding in the shaodws.
[10:06] <mdz> cjwatson,Keybuk: let me know when everyone is accounted for
[10:06] <Keybuk> mdz: everyone on my team is here
[10:06] <rtg> cjwatson: pong
[10:07] <doko> pong
[10:07] <cjwatson> mdz: check
[10:07] <mdz> ok, welcome all
[10:07] <mdz> are all the summaries in as well?
[10:08] <Keybuk> a few tardies, but yes
[10:08] <mdz> I've added a bit to the calendar to remind us to send the reminder early
[10:08] <cjwatson> all my summaries were on time
[10:09] <mdz> any new agenda items?
[10:09] <asac> i want to update my agenda item
[10:09] <asac> its meant to be more general and not mozilla team specific
[10:09] <ogra> a reminder reminder ?
[10:09] <heno> I can just add a quick report from the LP meeting
[10:09] <asac> update wiki or post updated version here?
[10:09] <mdz> asac: go ahead and change the wiki
[10:09] <asac> thx
[10:09] <mvo> if we have time, maybe we can consider taking about https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2007-March/000414.html (but only if we have time)
[10:09] <mdz> heno: oh, yes please.  can we make that a regular item each week?
[10:09] <Keybuk> mdz: I've moved my reminder up a bit
[10:10] <mdz> mvo: sure, add to the wiki
[10:10] <cjwatson> asac: your agenda item has an easy answer, but I left it there because I wanted to publicise that answer for more general use
[10:10] <heno> I brought up the beta performance issues today, which they are now looking at
[10:10] <heno> mdz: sure, good idea
[10:10] <heno> I'll use email next time
[10:10] <mdz> ok, let's dive in.
[10:10] <mdz> (fabbione) Improving hw certification test coverage
[10:10] <fabbione> yeps
[10:10] <asac> cjwatson: it should be not that easy anymore :)
[10:10] <mdz> fabbione: this was on the mailing list as well, no?
[10:10] <fabbione> i did send a mail to distro-team
[10:10] <fabbione> yes
[10:10] <fabbione> but received only one reply so fat
[10:10] <fabbione> far
[10:11] <mdz> fabbione: the last time I talked about this with jbailey, my understanding was that there wasn't enough bandwidth in certification to perform more than basic tests
[10:11] <fabbione> so this is an encouragment to at least let me know what's the status of your implementations
[10:11] <cjwatson> asac: with regard to your previous item, the answer as I understood it was http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures
[10:11] <mdz> this was when I was asking for help with different installer test cases, e.g.
[10:11] <pitti> still, even if these cannot be implemented right now, I think it makes sense to keep them in the specs for later manual verification
[10:11] <fabbione> mdz: probably not for feisty, but we can start as much as we can
[10:11] <cjwatson> which is something I'd like to encourage people to add to in general
[10:12] <mdz> cjwatson: hmm, is DebuggingProcedures not on UbuntuDevelopment yet?
[10:12] <fabbione> mdz: also because automation requires implementation and having an overview ASAP it's better
[10:12] <asac> cjwatson: ah ok
[10:12] <pitti> it also makes reviewing old specs much easier in later releases
[10:12] <fabbione> that will let certification team more time to develop their test cases
[10:12] <cjwatson> asac: though I guess workflow is slightly different from debugging procedures
[10:12] <heno> I'll be looking at restructuring those pages btw
[10:12] <mdz> fabbione: I think it's a fine idea for them to participate in feature testing, but I wouldn't want us to spend time defining tests if they won't be carried out
[10:12] <cjwatson> er bug handling procedures
[10:12] <heno> with a more uniform naming structure
[10:12] <asac> cjwatson: lets talk about that if its on topic :) right?
[10:12] <fabbione> mdz: the tests need to be hw specific. it's clear we are not going to ask them to test everything
[10:12] <cjwatson> asac: sure
[10:12] <heno> (more on the -devel list)
[10:13] <asac> ;)
[10:13] <cjwatson> mdz: not yet, I'll add it
[10:13] <fabbione> mdz: but only what involves/might involve hw specific
[10:13] <fabbione> -ETOOMANYCONVERSATIONS
[10:13] <mdz> is there anything other than compiz which is high-profile and hardware-specific?
[10:13] <mdz> we would certainly like for them to test that
[10:13] <kylem> fabbione, one of the things i'd like is add the linux firmware kit to the list of tests we do for certification.
[10:13] <fabbione> kylem: noted.
[10:13] <kylem> fabbione, so we can know what's a kernel bug, and what is a BIOS bug, for things like PCI MMCONFIG, etc.
[10:13] <pitti> fabbione: oh, I misunderstood it as you also wanted non-hw-specific tests, i. e. verifying general features that specs implement
[10:13] <kylem> fabbione, thanks.
[10:14] <fabbione> mdz: ok.
[10:14] <Mithrandir> mdz: accelerated-x, network-roaming, binary-driver-education, driver-backports at least, just to pick a few of the top ones.
[10:14] <fabbione> pitti: eheh you are too good dude :)
[10:14] <doko> mdz: EMT64
[10:14] <fabbione> ok but we shouldn't spent too much time here in the meeting... please developers review your spec if they can affect hw (or viceversa) and let me know asap
[10:14] <pitti> fabbione: well, as I said, having these tests written down in the specs is a good thing regardless of the guys implementing them right now :)
[10:14] <fabbione> pitti: fully agreed
[10:15] <mdz> Mithrandir: accelerated-x is compiz, network-roaming is a good one to test, as is binary-driver-education (though very coarsely)
[10:15] <Mithrandir> pitti: but that shouldn't be done in the last month and a half of a cycle, so while we should discuss it now, doing anything much for feisty is just not feasible.
[10:15] <bdmurray> kylem: where should linuxfirmware kit reports like 79226 go?
[10:15] <mdz> fabbione: how about for feisty+1, you review the list of targets and check for ones which could affect certification?  you can check with the people working on it if you have doubts
[10:15] <pitti> Mithrandir: well, it does make sense to write down the tests when the spec is actually implemented
[10:15] <fabbione> Mithrandir: we might still be able to test some stuff...
[10:16] <kylem> bdmurray, woah. wtf.
[10:16] <fabbione> mdz: for feisty+1 i want a settled entry in the specs..
[10:16] <kylem> bdmurray, reject it... why would that be in launchpad?
[10:16] <fabbione> mdz: but yes..
[10:16] <fabbione> i still think it's important we try to test feisty too
[10:16] <fabbione> if we can good.. if we can't... well same as now
[10:16] <mdz> ok
[10:17] <mdz> fabbione: is that sufficient for this meeting?
[10:17] <fabbione> mdz: yes. i just would like people to send me the info i asked asap if they are not too overloaded
[10:17] <fabbione> otherwise i am all good
[10:18] <mdz> fabbione: probably the best would be to confirm with each developer whether they've reviewed, then you know when everyone has input
[10:19] <mdz> otherwise you don't know whether you've received all broadcast responses
[10:19] <mdz> but right, moving on
[10:19] <fabbione> mdz: ok
[10:19] <mdz> (pitti) [WWW]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/67925 (which translations/input support do we want to ship on CDs): it basically boils down to 'ship Chinese with complete input support vs. don't ship Chinese at all, and two dozen of other translations'. Does anyone know a good and objective data source about Ubuntu popularity that can help us decide?
[10:19] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 67925 in Ubuntu "Do not ship translations without matching input support" [High,In progress] 
[10:19] <mdz> pitti: I put this question to Canonical bus. dev. in January
[10:19] <mdz> however, I didn't take into account the tradeoffs available between translations and input support
[10:19] <pitti> ah, good idea, they probably know better about popularity
[10:20] <mdz> pitti: could you send me a table of the cost (size) for each language?
[10:20] <pitti> mdz: the bug has the options with rough numbers
[10:20] <mdz> pitti: beta is slow for me
[10:21] <pitti> for everyone :(
[10:21] <mdz> pitti: does it also have the amount of space available to spend?
[10:21] <mdz> (approximate)
[10:21] <pitti> I hope this is due to beta running on a slower server and not due to general code slowness
[10:21] <mdz> ok, it's loaded
[10:21] <pitti> mdz: no, since this drastically changed just today
[10:21] <heno> it's general code slowness :(
[10:21] <mdz> the bug  doesn't seem to have the information I'd want
[10:21] <heno> but they are working on it
[10:21] <mdz> if we're to balance the tradeoffs, I'd like to see size for each available language
[10:21] <pitti> mdz: ok, I'll add a comprehensive table to the bug
[10:22] <Mithrandir> mdz: space available to spend on the CDs?  Zero, usually.  We have to take something out to fit something else.
[10:22] <mdz> pitti: for languages requiring input support, it should include that
[10:22] <pitti> mdz: best is probably if I modify my langpacksize script to take into account input support as well
[10:22] <mdz> Mithrandir: we ship a certain quantity of l10n data already
[10:22] <mdz> pitti: yes, then we can have just one number per language
[10:22] <mdz> pitti: and can choose the top N for the space
[10:22] <pitti> ACTION: pitti to update langpack size script to include input support packages
[10:22] <pitti> mdz: but that wasn't really my question
[10:23] <mdz> ACTION: pitti to send output to mdz, mdz to pass to bizdev for ranking
[10:23] <Mithrandir> pitti: please tell me when you have that ready, since I want the input for release thingies.
[10:23] <pitti> Mithrandir: yep, will do
[10:23] <mdz> pitti: that will be implicit in the data; we'll get their input based on shipit, commercial activities, etc. and set priorities
[10:23] <pitti> ok
[10:23] <mdz> pitti: don't worry, I'll answer the real question :-)
[10:23] <pitti> mdz: that works for me, thank you
[10:24] <mdz> asac) do we allow teams to maintain their individual tag/state/bug policies for a subset of packages? If we do so (hopefully yes), how can we properly document and communicate this so arbitrary QA/bug team members still can contribute to bug triage for those packages.
[10:24] <mdz> cjwatson: you wanted to field this?
[10:24] <asac> yes ...
[10:24] <asac> my idea is a QA/Bug team page that lists teams (and what packages are associated with that team) that maintain a special bug policy
[10:25] <cjwatson> well, the brief answer as above was DebuggingProcedures, but initially I thought asac was talking about general triage procedures rather than specifics of team bug handling
[10:25] <mdz> I believe there exists such a resource in the BugSquad documentation, including DebuggingProcedures
[10:25] <asac> + in the long run in launchpad: provide a link to team policy if package of current bug is maintained by a team that has a refined tag/state/bug policy
[10:25] <cjwatson> however, I think it does fit in reasonably well in DebuggingProcedures
[10:25] <mdz> bdmurray: do you know if that's in good shape?
[10:25] <cjwatson> I know that DebuggingUbiquity has comments on bug policy
[10:25] <cjwatson> mdz: this is something we talked about in the QA call yesterday
[10:25] <dholbach> we already have: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Tags and I started https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Teams quite some time ago
[10:25] <bdmurray> mdz: DebuggingProcedures is being worked on
[10:26] <cjwatson> I would like to encourage everyone with non-trivial-to-debug packages to write short documentation on them and link it from DebuggingProcedures (as DebuggingPackageName)
[10:26] <asac> anyway ... i doubt if everybody really looks at those pages regularly ... thats why i would like something in launchpad
[10:26] <asac> at least a disclaimer
[10:26] <cjwatson> asac: bug triagers do, AIUI
[10:26] <mdz> asac: we've asked for a per-package text field which would be displayed on the bug page
[10:26] <pitti> cjwatson: can we bless this as an ACTION item?
[10:26] <cjwatson> pitti: I don't want to have actions for the whole team, really
[10:27] <cjwatson> too hard to decide whether they're finished
[10:27] <asac> mdz: .... maybe somehow allow per-package ... as well as per-team info would help a lot
[10:27] <mdz> the push for this should come from QA
[10:27] <cjwatson> it's an ongoing thing I'd like to encourage, that's all
[10:27] <pitti> right, just as a reminder
[10:27] <mdz> if there are questions about how to handle bugs for a specific package, documentation should be provided by a developer
[10:27] <cjwatson> mdz: yes
[10:27] <mdz> but it needs to be asked for, so that we focus on the most important bits
[10:27] <cjwatson> I've asked Brian to establish a list of the most important items
[10:27] <cjwatson> which can then be filled out over time
[10:28] <mdz> sounds good
[10:28] <mdz> asac: are your questions answered?
[10:28] <asac> hmmm .... so how do triagers get that info
[10:28] <asac> ?
[10:28] <cjwatson> new triagers are pointed to the documentation, and AIUI encouraged to re-read from time to time
[10:28] <mdz> asac: part of the process of joining the QA team is learning the documentation
[10:29] <asac> ah ... ok ... lets see how well it works when i added that info
[10:29] <mdz> asac: bdmurray can provide details of the process
[10:29] <cjwatson> yes, it would be nice to have Launchpad prompt people; that's not something we can resolve immediately, but it's on their list
[10:29] <bdmurray> asac: I would e-mail the bugsquad team too when that info is added
[10:29] <mdz> asac: in order for existing QA members to become aware of it, it would be wise to inform them of new documentation
[10:29] <bdmurray> so they know there is no information
[10:29] <bdmurray> s/no/new/
[10:29] <asac> yep ... all clear for now :)
[10:29] <cjwatson> bdmurray: is the address on the wiki pages themselves?
[10:29] <mdz> asac: in general, bdmurray is your point of contact for communicating with them
[10:29] <cjwatson> bdmurray: (it should be)
[10:30] <bdmurray> cjwatson: "the address"?
[10:30] <mdz> cjwatson: we could use a section about the bugsquad/qa team on UbuntuDevelopment, especially how to interface with them
[10:30] <mdz> bdmurray: the contact email address for the team
[10:30] <bdmurray> got it
[10:31] <cjwatson> along with instructions
[10:31] <mdz> cjwatson: could you/bdmurray arrange that between you?
[10:31] <cjwatson> ACTION: cjwatson/bdmurray to add instructions on interfacing with bugsquad/qa to UbuntuDevelopment
[10:31] <mdz> what the bug squad is and how/when developers interact with it
[10:31] <mdz> thanks
[10:31] <mdz> moving on
[10:31] <mdz> (Riddell) I plan to upload patches to dist-upgrade tool unless anyone objects
[10:31] <mdz> Riddell: meaning the upgrader tarball?
[10:32] <Riddell> the patches to edgy-proposed
[10:32] <Riddell> the upgrader tar is stuck in soyuz somewhere
[10:32] <mvo> Riddell: it should be fixed now
[10:32] <mvo> Riddell: the latest is available
[10:32] <mdz> Riddell: the patches to several packages to support kubuntu release upgrades?
[10:33] <Riddell> mdz: yes, they're been greatly reduced since I first proposed them and pitti seems happy with the last review he gave
[10:33] <mdz> Riddell: if it has SRU approval, then I'm OK with it
[10:33] <pitti> oh, I still need to review your latest corrections, I think
[10:33] <cjwatson> the upgrader tar was rejected because the _all was built in binary-arch; mvo has fixed that
[10:33] <pitti> Riddell: tomorrow is my next archive/SRU review day, I'll come to that then
[10:33] <Riddell> pitti: great
[10:33] <cjwatson> (binary reject reasons are hard to dig out of Soyuz)
[10:34] <mdz> Riddell: all done?
[10:34] <Riddell> yes, thanks
[10:34] <mdz> (bdmurray) [WWW]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/63175 - fsck not updating date checked possibly related to Feisty ([WWW]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/78801) fsck issue
[10:34] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 63175 in e2fsprogs "Edgy Beta -- fsck on every (re)boot" [Medium,Confirmed] 
[10:34] <mdz> iirc we stopped setting the time-based flag in the superblock some time ago
[10:34] <bdmurray> This is something I have also seen bug reports about in Feisty.
[10:34] <mdz> [...everyone waits for beta to load...] 
[10:35] <mdz> perhaps fsck behaviour has changed
[10:36] <mdz> hmm, wait, that's definitely not right
[10:36] <mdz> there should be no ...has gone N days without...
[10:36] <mdz> cjwatson: didn't we disable that in the installer?
[10:36] <mdz> (because of clock skew madness issues)
[10:36] <cjwatson> only for dos due to specific brokenness in dosfsck
[10:36] <cjwatson> er fat
[10:36] <cjwatson> I think it's a really bad idea to turn off fsck across the board
[10:37] <cjwatson> I can't imagine I'd have done that
[10:37] <mdz> or was it the mount count check?
[10:37] <mdz> the mount count check is not really appropriate for desktop/laptop systems
[10:37] <cjwatson> TTBOMK the installer hasn't changed
[10:37] <heno> it still does mount count check, my box did that yesterday
[10:37] <mdz> I'm not entirely sure about forcing a check of a marked-clean filesystem without user request on desktops
[10:37] <cjwatson> tune2fs(8) has a rant about why you shouldn't turn off mount count checking
[10:38] <cjwatson> even if the fs is marked clean
[10:38] <mdz> the user experience when fsck runs is pretty poor
[10:38] <cjwatson> we should fix that, but not by disabling it
[10:38] <ogra> how about setting it to 90 instead of 30
[10:38] <cjwatson> there's a spec for it too
[10:38] <kylem> cjwatson, that isn't horribly valid now that we have CRC checks on DMA to ide disks and such...
[10:38] <mdz> yeah, we've talked about it for a  while
[10:38] <heno> mine was some odd number yesterday like 22
[10:38] <Mithrandir> fsck+usplash you mean?
[10:38] <Seveas> [if beta remains slow: just disable redirection on the old launchpad.net frontpage :)] 
[10:38] <cjwatson> Mithrandir: yes
[10:39] <Mithrandir> that's feisty+1 material, though.
[10:39] <cjwatson> kylem: I think "kernel bugs" still applies ;-)
[10:39] <cjwatson> (given that ext3 oopsed several times on me not that long ago ...)
[10:39] <kylem> cjwatson, nah. :)
[10:39] <kylem> it's perfect, it just doesn't like you. ;-)
[10:39] <pitti> heno: IIRC they are all 'almost prime' to make it less likely to get fscks on multiple partitions at the same time
[10:40] <heno> ok
[10:40] <pitti> heno: (in fact the ones I saw were pimes; 23, 29, 31, and such)
[10:40] <mvo> we could implement someting so that the user can skip/stop the check at least
[10:40] <cjwatson> anyway, does somebody want to volunteer to sort that bug out?
[10:40] <pkl_> kylem: that's not what Andrew Morton called it at Fosdem :-)
[10:41] <Seveas> pkl_, :)
[10:41] <cjwatson> I don't think attempting to either (a) debug it on the fly in the meeting or (b) redesign the entire system in the meeting is a good idea
[10:41] <mdz> cjwatson: agreed
[10:41] <kylem> cjwatson, i don't know... i did a feisty daily install on monday with nothing wrong with fsck... but, yeah, another place.
[10:41] <cjwatson> can anyone on the team reproduce this problem?
[10:41] <mdz> cjwatson: why don't you and bdmurray follow up after the meeting and allocate someone to help
[10:41] <cjwatson> or rather, has anyone reproduced it?
[10:42] <cjwatson> sure
[10:42] <bdmurray> cjwatson: I thought you mentioned it happened to ogra after installing Feisty.
[10:42] <mdz> I've never seen it; it sounds like it probably happens when the clock is borked
[10:42] <cjwatson> ogra's education rather than distro thoughe
[10:42] <cjwatson> -e
[10:42] <ogra> :P
[10:42] <ogra> i havent seen it today during testing
[10:42] <cjwatson> ogra: no disparagement intended, but your priorities lie in different places and we don't manage you :-)
[10:42] <ogra> it happened on all herds to me
[10:42] <mdz> I expect that setting the hardware clock to zero would reproduce it
[10:42] <kylem> might be worth asking marc, he does a lot of installs. :)
[10:43] <pitti> I did lots of test installs recently and never saw it
[10:43] <cjwatson> ACTION: cjwatson/bdmurray to find somebody to fix 63175
[10:43] <mdz> ok
[10:43] <cjwatson> let's move on
[10:43] <mdz> (mvo) use of XS-Vcs-* in debian/control [WWW]  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2007-March/000414.html
[10:43] <ogra> i'm happy to help though
[10:43] <cjwatson> mvo: a fine idea
[10:44] <mvo> XS-Vcs-bzr is about making the transition to bzr maintained packages easier. A lot are maintained in bzr already and the number is growing, but a lot are not.
[10:44] <mvo> I would like to proposed that if you see  (e.g. during a transition) a XS-Vcs-bzr field, commit directly or notify the maintainer. If you maintain your packages in bzr, add this tag to debian/control so that people touching the package know to send notification or commit into the bzr tree
[10:44] <mdz> mvo: this belongs on ubuntu-devel as it's directly relevant to development and needs feedback from people actively developing
[10:44] <mvo> mdz: yeah, my bad. shall I just re-send there?
[10:44] <Mithrandir> mvo: how would that field look when the source is in the package?
[10:44] <pitti> mvo: that needs some tool support, though
[10:44] <mdz> mvo: please do, yes.  I'll replay my comments there
[10:44] <cjwatson> Mithrandir: it should be pushed to bazaar.launchpad.net anyway for the packages we maintain
[10:45] <pitti> mvo: apt-get source at least warning you or so
[10:45] <mdz> in order for this to work well, I expect we need to find some way to detect the case where a bzr-maintained package is being uploaded without updating bzr
[10:45] <mvo> pitti: we could add this
[10:45] <cjwatson> if you have an example of one maintained by somebody else that isn't pushed anywhere else, feel free to bring it up, but otherwise that seems academic
[10:45] <mdz> and error out (overridably)
[10:45] <Mithrandir> I have played with the idea of making the casper build fail if you have uncommitted changes.
[10:45] <Mithrandir> (with an override mechanism, yes. :-)
[10:45] <mdz> we could require that the build be done from bzr, but that may not be appropriate in all cases
[10:45] <cjwatson> (speaking of which, the debian-maintainer-field error needs to be overridable)
[10:46] <Keybuk> cjwatson: thinking of a particular example?
[10:46] <LaserJock> people just building packages at home
[10:46] <cjwatson> Keybuk: we've had a number of complaints from people building local versions of *ubuntu* packages that haven't had their source changed yet
[10:46] <seb128_> yeah, it's pretty annoying to rebuild debug packages
[10:46] <cjwatson> it's obviously a bug that it doesn't use dpkg-source's normal errors-can-downgrade-to-warnings mechanism
[10:47] <cjwatson> anyway, sorry, this is just a bug rant, not meeting fodder
[10:47] <Keybuk> *nods*
[10:47] <mdz> tricky problem to get the check right often enough
[10:47] <Keybuk> the recent dch handling where you couldn't *not* get "ubuntuN" on the end annoyed me
[10:47] <mdz> if only debian required debian.org maintainer addresses...
[10:47] <doko> and its common to have "<releasename>" instead of "ubuntu" in the version
[10:47] <mdz> doko: false negatives are a minor issue, false positives are bad
[10:47] <mdz> which is sort of an argument for it being a warning instead of an error
[10:48] <mdz> except that builds are so noisy that nobody sees warnings
[10:48] <doko> add banner to build-essential
[10:48] <cjwatson> even without tool support, XS-VCS-Bzr would be a win for people who practice some degree of diligence, since it would save them time having to go to BzrMaintainedPackages all the time
[10:48] <mdz> perhaps we should downgrade to a warning for release, to avoid interfering with local builds
[10:48] <cjwatson> doko: hah
[10:48] <mdz> cjwatson: and it would increase the chances of that page being kept up-to-date
[10:49] <cjwatson> make it controlled by an environment variable that all the distro team set but nobody else has to
[10:49] <mdz> or rather, replacing it with something autogenerated which would be more likely up-to-date
[10:49] <cjwatson> UBUNTU_I_AM_A_DEVELOPER=1
[10:49] <mdz> grep ubuntu $DEBEMAIL
[10:49] <Keybuk> DEBMAIL~=ubuntu.com ?
[10:49] <pitti> $DEBEMAIL ~= ubuntu
[10:49] <cjwatson> yes!
[10:49] <pitti> Keybuk: heh, snap
[10:49] <cjwatson> then it can fail hard
[10:50] <mdz> pitti: will you take the action for that?
[10:50] <pitti> mdz: fine for me
[10:50] <mdz> ACTION: pitti to fix up dpkg-dev to only error hard if $DEBEMAIL contains ubuntu
[10:50] <mdz> (Riddell) do we want hwdb ask-email ?
[10:51] <pitti> mdz: (what a nasty hack...)
[10:51] <Riddell> I thought lifeless had implemented this in the gnome hwdb client ages ago
[10:51] <mdz> Riddell: if the question is whether we want hwdb-client to ask for an optional email address, yes, absolutely
[10:51] <mdz> pitti: nasty hacks R us
[10:51] <Riddell> but I looked today and he hadn't
[10:51] <mdz> Riddell: I remember talking to lifeless about it
[10:51] <mdz> and I thought it was done too
[10:51] <Riddell> mdz: there was a branch, but no commits
[10:51] <mdz> Riddell: maybe chase lifeless and see if he has code elsewhere?
[10:51] <Riddell> mdz: I did, he doesn't
[10:51] <mdz> oh
[10:51] <Riddell> I'm happy to do it in both frontends if we don't mind breaching feature freeze
[10:52] <mdz> Riddell: if the release team is happy, I'm happy. it's very much worth having
[10:52] <Riddell> I'll code it up and ask the release team to review
[10:53] <Mithrandir> as long as it's small enough, I'm fine with it.
[10:53] <mdz> great
[10:53] <Mithrandir> note that we're actually quite close to release now.  Release is in a month and a half, betafreeze is in two weeks.
[10:53] <mdz> Mithrandir: speaking of freezes and such, how are we doing?
[10:54] <doko> Mithrandir: do we have results from the rebuild tests?
[10:54] <Mithrandir> mdz: the targetted bug list is at ~100 bugs right now, which is too much.  I'll go through it and see what low hanging fruit there's to catch there as well as prod people to concentrate on the important bugs.
[10:54] <Riddell> ACTION: jonathan do implement ask-email in hwdb-client
[10:54] <Riddell> s/do/to/
[10:54] <Mithrandir> doko: I haven't received those yet, no.  I'll follow up on that.
[10:54] <Mithrandir> ACTION: tfheen to get rebuild test results and publish them somewhere.
[10:54] <mdz> Mithrandir: I feel like we should have a policy about targeted bugs and assignment
[10:55] <mdz> there should be a path by which bugs which are clearly real targets should be assigned as a matter of course
[10:55] <mdz> Mithrandir: do you review that from time to time?
[10:55] <Mithrandir> mdz: so far I've encouraged people to add a milestone if they believe a bug is important; the team is my ears and eyes.
[10:55] <Mithrandir> yes, I try to go through the list of bugs and downgrade the ones I don't think are really RC.
[10:55] <mdz> Mithrandir: but it happens occasionally that a bug is targeted without having an assignee yet
[10:55] <ogra> Riddell, ??
[10:56] <Mithrandir> mdz: yes, I'll get that fixed when I go through the list next time.
[10:56] <mdz> in which case there's no one for you to nag
[10:56] <Riddell> ogra: see discussion 21:50
[10:56] <Mithrandir> I'll find somebody. :-)
[10:56] <Mithrandir> I've also gone through the list of specs and will talk with the responsible people to see what needs to be deferred and what can be rescued.
[10:56] <mdz> there should be plenty of bandwidth for RC bugs now that we're in feature freeze
[10:57] <mdz> that's our focus
[10:57] <ogra> Riddell, i dont think it was ever implemente3d and lifeless refused to touch the GUI
[10:57] <Riddell> ogra: quite a hard feature to implement without touching the GUI :)
[10:57] <mdz> ok
[10:57] <mdz> any other business for the meeting?
[10:57] <ogra> Riddell, exactly :)
[10:57] <heno> I'll just post the LP stuff:
[10:58] <heno> == Launchpad meeting report ==
[10:58] <heno> * I raised the performance issues in beta. They will do some profiling and esp. look at how the JS and CSS files are loaded, perhaps inlining some of it
[10:58] <heno> * That also raised the general point of how to file or tag bugs that are beta-specific (like performance or the failure to fit in a small window). The suggestion of a 'beta' tag was rejected. It was suggested we use the tag '1.0' (which means fix this before 1.0 is out, so not quite the same IMO)
[10:58] <pitti> mdz: a small announcement
[10:59] <Mithrandir> heno: is there any data we can provide which helps the developers fix the performance bugs?
[10:59] <heno> Mithrandir: yes, I think you did some comparative timings AFAIR
[10:59] <heno> that should be useful
[10:59] <heno> or use Firebug I think it's called
[11:00] <Mithrandir> yes, I used firebug and looked at the load times.
[11:00] <cjwatson> heno: 1.0 seems like a reasonable default for regressions in the beta from current production
[11:00] <heno> which analyses traffic on page loads
[11:00] <heno> cjwatson: that's true
[11:00] <heno> these are basically regressions
[11:01] <heno> though they may also be beta-specific nits
[11:01] <heno> not worthy of 'fix-before-1.0' status
[11:01] <heno> anyway ...
[11:01] <mdz> ok
[11:01] <cjwatson> it's not clear to me when something is strictly beta-specific (i.e. something that will only be true of the beta and somehow not true when it is deployed on launchpad.net)
[11:01] <mdz> we're out of time
[11:02] <mdz> pitti: please go ahead
[11:02] <pitti> I have a little surprise, especially for crashmaster seb128 and segvmaster dholbach: just three minutes before the meeting I got the apport fakechroot stuff working
[11:02] <pitti> i. e. I can now build and use chroots for apport-retracing entirely with user privileges
[11:02] <pitti> right now you still have to call it manually, but that at least solves the 'I do not have this architecture' problem, as well as bandwidth issues
[11:02] <dholbach> pitti: YOU ROCK :)
[11:02] <seb128_> rock on ;)
[11:02] <mdz> pitti: neat!
[11:02] <pitti> it should be relatively easy to search for bugs with unretraced crashes and add comments with debug stack traces automatically; I'll do that in my 'after hours' in the next time
[11:02] <pitti> to roll this out to the porter machines in the DC, I just need RT#26845 fixes (installation of fake[ch] root on porter machines); maybe I can get a little pushing from the management folks to get this sorted out soon? :)
[11:02] <ogra> pitti, you made fakechroot work ???? !!!!
[11:02] <mdz> pitti: if you write a document explaining how to do it, that can be farmed out to the QA team
[11:03] <pitti> mdz: right, but my idea is to make it fully automatic
[11:03] <iwj__> pitti: I should look at that, as I think I might want to attach some of my autopkgtest tendrils if you have a fakeroot-based chroot builder.
[11:03] <pitti> file a crash bug, half an hour later you have the retrace
[11:03] <mdz> pitti: sure, that'd obviously be better
[11:03] <iwj__> (Well done, btw.)
[11:03] <pitti> iwj__: sure, I have it in a Python class
[11:03] <iwj__> Right.  I'll ask you about it tomorrow.
[11:03] <pitti> mdz: the only problem is that fakeroot needs to be apt-get isntall'ed, because of this /usr/lib/libfakeroot.so stub
[11:03] <pitti> that's why I need that RT
[11:04] <mdz> pitti: I'm sure we can get that installed on a server in the DC
[11:04] <ogra> pitti, does that mean i can use fakechroot in a normal way for ubuntu systems as well ?
[11:04] <pitti> ogra: well, why not?
[11:04] <pitti> ogra: the package itself is ages old
[11:04] <pitti> of course it's pretty limited, but it's just perfect for apport-retrace's sake
[11:04] <ogra> i know but i didnt manage to get an ubuntu chroot working in edgy
[11:05] <pitti> anyway, technical stuff, not for the meeting
[11:05] <mdz> right, truly out of time now
[11:05] <mdz> thanks, everyone
[11:05] <mdz> good night
[11:05] <pitti> thanks everyone!
[11:05] <kwwii> night all
[11:05] <iwj__> Goodnight.
[11:05] <mvo> goodnight
[11:05] <bdmurray> good night
[11:05] <dholbach> gnight
[11:05] <asac> bye
[11:05] <doko> good night
[11:05] <pkl_> night.
[11:06] <tkamppeter> bye
[11:08] <NilssitO> asac ping
[11:08] <asac> NilssitO: hi :)
[11:33] <Wiesel> hi