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| AStorm | Any good C programmer around? | 08:03 |
|---|---|---|
| AStorm | I mean _damn good_. | 08:03 |
| AStorm | cmpdir.c:125: error: invalid operands to binary & | 08:04 |
| AStorm | line: | 08:05 |
| AStorm | if ((!(difftype & 5) || untrusted_size) && S_ISREG(st)) | 08:05 |
| AStorm | difftype is unsigned | 08:05 |
| AStorm | Gah! | 08:11 |
| AStorm | Now I've got it. | 08:11 |
| AStorm | Wrong parameter to the macro. | 08:11 |
| AStorm | Should be st->st_mode | 08:11 |
| AStorm | C preprocessor is smarter than me :P | 08:12 |
| AStorm | Can't just say "Possibly the argument 1 to macro XYZ is of invalid type", heh? | 08:16 |
| AStorm | Macros are phun :P | 08:18 |
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| Keybuk | editing the eINIT wiki is probably cheeky ;p | 04:09 |
| === Keybuk just corrected someone's "look eINIT boots in 15s compared to sysvinit's 52s" bullshit page | ||
| pkt | Keybuk: yeah, with a bit of kernel tweaking and UPX compression I could make a *386sx/25* boot in ~30s | 04:33 |
| pkt | the challenge is to boot to *something useful* fast :-) | 04:34 |
| Amaranth | funny, i thought sysvinit compatibility was a nice demo of how flexible the system was | 04:47 |
| Amaranth | according to eINIT it's something that holds you back | 04:47 |
| AStorm | It is, but only sometimes. | 04:54 |
| AStorm | SysVInit is a good system, but has no dependency support. | 04:54 |
| AStorm | And thus no parallelism. | 04:54 |
| AStorm | A bit not scalable. | 04:54 |
| Keybuk | but how does compatibility with that hold you back? | 05:23 |
| Keybuk | pkt: that's the thing that concerns me about the approach of removing shell scripts in favour of C modules | 05:24 |
| Keybuk | you throw away a lot of flexibility | 05:24 |
| Keybuk | the point of the boot sequence being written in shell is that it's easy to change it | 05:25 |
| pkt | Keybuk, exactly | 05:26 |
| pkt | and especially shell scripts instead of other languages because you can also get an interactive shell if you screw up | 05:26 |
| pkt | which is surprisingly easy in super-complex installations | 05:27 |
| Keybuk | at some point, I'm going to get around to implementing a "UNIX Script" language that has direct access to syscalls :p | 05:36 |
| Md | perl? | 05:36 |
| Keybuk | true, Perl probably suffices | 05:37 |
| AStorm | Keybuk, no, they won't remove shell scripts. | 05:38 |
| Keybuk | "remove" ? | 05:38 |
| AStorm | remove support :> | 05:39 |
| AStorm | There will be a "shell" module. | 05:39 |
| AStorm | Some other things will be also optionally in C. | 05:39 |
| AStorm | (actually, the defaults will be in C) | 05:39 |
| Keybuk | I'm not convinced by the whole C-vs-Shell argument anyway | 05:40 |
| Keybuk | I can't see it making any measurable difference on desktop-class machines | 05:40 |
| Md | what was the point of what ubuntu did to udev then? :-) | 05:41 |
| Keybuk | which bits? | 05:42 |
| Keybuk | the fact some of the helpers are written in C not Sh? | 05:42 |
| Md | yes | 05:42 |
| Keybuk | the ones we did in C had bugs which couldn't be "nicely" cured in Sh | 05:42 |
| Keybuk | e.g. the "look at /proc/ide" one, which in Sh had a massive race condition if /proc/ide didn't turn up in time | 05:43 |
| pkt | Keybuk, anyway you *please* only focus in correctness (as you have so far), it is much easier to add speed (at least for site-specific configurations) | 05:46 |
| pkt | The reason I 'm keeping an eye to upstart is the typicall "root in usb disk" bug | 05:46 |
| Keybuk | oh, don't worry; my focus right now is to get the "when a job runs" problem solved | 05:47 |
| pkt | where with something like sysvinit you can only wait for an arbitrary time slowing down boot rediculously for other users and *still* not being correct | 05:47 |
| pkt | yep, please stay focused on that, the other stuff is much easier | 05:48 |
| AStorm | Keybuk, eInit is geared towards embedded, not desktop. | 06:12 |
| Keybuk | AStorm: except their website seems to suggest they're entirely gearing it as an alternative to sysvinit and/or upstart, and that it's ideal for desktop deployment | 06:14 |
| Keybuk | their example distribution is Gentoo | 06:14 |
| Keybuk | etc. | 06:14 |
| Keybuk | the eINIT *design* is perfect for embedded systems | 06:14 |
| AStorm | :> | 06:14 |
| Keybuk | the marketing isn't :p | 06:14 |
| AStorm | Well, Gentoo on Arm works great. | 06:14 |
| AStorm | :> | 06:14 |
| AStorm | Actually, it's not Gentoo, it's a snapshot of it, crosscompiled. | 06:14 |
| Keybuk | 29 files changed, 4515 insertions(+), 3530 deletions(-) | 06:16 |
| Keybuk | (since 0.3.5 ... ouch; I must get more into the hang of making releases :p) | 06:17 |
| Keybuk | trouble is, I tend to break things immediately after a release and take ages to get around to fixing them again | 06:19 |
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| AStorm | Keybuk, what about a nice test suite? | 06:22 |
| Keybuk | AStorm: how do you mean? | 06:24 |
| AStorm | If you know something is broken, write a test against that functionality. | 06:25 |
| AStorm | That will remind you to fix it. | 06:25 |
| Keybuk | have you ever looked at the upstart source code? :P | 06:25 |
| mbiebl | iirc, that is exactly how keybuk does it ;-) | 06:25 |
| AStorm | Keybuk, yep | 06:26 |
| AStorm | Looks nice, clean and understandable. | 06:26 |
| Keybuk | AStorm: ever looked in the tests sub-directory? :p | 06:27 |
| AStorm | Nope? :P | 06:27 |
| Keybuk | around 60% of the upstart source code is the test suite | 06:27 |
| AStorm | I'm currently creating a new distro, so am a bit busy. :> | 06:27 |
| Keybuk | run "make check" :p | 06:27 |
| AStorm | Hehe. | 06:28 |
| Keybuk | Today's problem is how to communicate the new job structure over IPC | 06:31 |
| Keybuk | e.g. when you do "emit foo", it currently notifies you of the jobs started or stopped by that | 06:31 |
| Keybuk | should it just say "frodo started", or should it say "frodo started, now running, pid 456" | 06:31 |
| Keybuk | ? | 06:31 |
| Keybuk | (likewise, if it causes an action to be run, should it say "frodo reload invoked, pid 1234" ? | 06:32 |
| Keybuk | or should that be included in above) | 06:32 |
| Keybuk | etc. | 06:32 |
| AStorm | I'd suggest going for verbose output. | 06:37 |
| AStorm | It's an internal command anyway. | 06:37 |
| Keybuk | it's how to lay out the messages that's fun | 06:38 |
| AStorm | Pass some nice packed struct, maybe? | 06:39 |
| Keybuk | the trouble with packed structs is extending them later ;) | 06:39 |
| Keybuk | ie. what happens if I add an extra field to the JobProcess struct | 06:40 |
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| AStorm | Not for you. | 06:40 |
| Keybuk | how do older versions of initctl know to skip over that so they can find the start of the next one | 06:40 |
| AStorm | Older versions are obsolete :P | 06:40 |
| Keybuk | I don't agree there <g> | 06:40 |
| Keybuk | you shouldn't have to update all your software just to update init | 06:40 |
| AStorm | When you install upstart, you should also install up-to-date initctl | 06:40 |
| AStorm | It's a bundle, right? | 06:41 |
| Keybuk | and up-to-date udev, acpid, network manager, etc.? | 06:41 |
| AStorm | Structs are for internals! | 06:41 |
| Keybuk | how about up to date gnome services manager? | 06:41 |
| Keybuk | ah, but the IPC isn't internal | 06:41 |
| Keybuk | that's the point | 06:41 |
| AStorm | Text output is for externals :> | 06:41 |
| AStorm | Hmmmmm. | 06:41 |
| Keybuk | it's supposed to be a stable API for other applications | 06:41 |
| AStorm | Why use IPC and not FIFO? | 06:41 |
| Keybuk | FIFO is a form of IPC | 06:41 |
| AStorm | IPC for me means SysV IPC. | 06:42 |
| Keybuk | upstart uses an abstract-domain datagram unix socket | 06:42 |
| Keybuk | which is a kind of fifo, I guess | 06:42 |
| Keybuk | preserves message boundaries and ordering | 06:43 |
| mbiebl_ | Keybuk: for tools like a gnome service manager, a upstart D-Bus interface would be much better imo | 06:52 |
| Keybuk | mbiebl_: yes, that's the actual plan | 06:52 |
| Keybuk | but then you'd have to upgrade the upstart d-bus interface :) | 06:52 |
| Keybuk | and a console service manager might not want to use the d-bus interface, but the direct one | 06:53 |
| mbiebl_ | Sure, but the gnome program wouldn't notice | 06:53 |
| Keybuk | if it's only a little more effort to maintain a stable API, I think it's worthwhile | 06:54 |
| mbiebl_ | Why not use D-Bus for the console too? | 06:54 |
| mbiebl_ | I don't mean, for the core tools like initctl | 06:54 |
| Keybuk | because that introduces d-bus as a base-system dependency | 06:54 |
| mbiebl_ | but for a service manager, i thinks it'd be fine. | 06:54 |
| Keybuk | server people won't like that | 06:55 |
| Keybuk | you don't normally have dbus or hal on a web server | 06:55 |
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| wasabi | That's always confused me. I don't particularily care what goes on most of the servers I use. heh | 07:24 |
| Keybuk | heh | 07:50 |
| Keybuk | we used to be really paranoid at Demon, even removed compilers, etc. from the servers | 07:50 |
| Keybuk | (right, my dinner's on now -- just need to keep feeding it every now and then) | 07:51 |
| _ion | Dinner is a security hole. Viruses can attain access to the system via ingestion. | 07:56 |
| wasabi | Most of the world doesn't particularily care, as evidenced by the rise of wIndows based servers. | 08:09 |
| wasabi | And I mostly fall in that camp. I'd like the system to just get the job done so I can go play. =) | 08:10 |
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