/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2007/03/06/#ubuntu-motu.txt

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Lutinajmitch: any news of the sparc build ?12:25
ToadstoolLutin: what's wrong with this buildd?12:34
LutinToadstool: nothing wrong, I just forgot to disable the x86 asm code for mlt for non-x86 archs, so I want to make sure the fix actually works ):12:36
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Lutin:) rather12:36
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jdongLMAO compiz slurped up a window12:42
jdongit must've gotten past upper clipping checks12:42
jdongand got above the title bar on restrict Y-axis mode...12:43
jdongthen it wobbled for a little bit, and got slurped up...12:43
jdongand now I can't find it... :(12:43
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RAOFjdong: I like getting wobbly confused about what a window should snap to.12:50
RAOFjdong: Then you can watch it osscilate between different positions :)12:50
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joejaxxcrimsun: it is a hard decision :(12:54
crimsunjoejaxx: why?12:54
crimsunit has inertia; you shouldn't be concerned about existing users but potential users.12:55
joejaxxyeah12:56
joejaxxi just hope a move from the fluxbuntu name will not start another bad stigma12:56
LaserJockwhat's do you want to call it?12:57
LaserJocks/'s//12:57
joejaxxi do not know something that has nothing to do with the curent name12:57
joejaxxbecause there is that insertwindowmanagerherebuntu with it12:58
joejaxxso everyone thinks it is about fluxbox12:58
joejaxxtoo bad there was already the ubuntu lite project i would have probably called it that when i started it12:59
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bddebianHeya gang03:00
ajmitchhello03:00
bddebianHeya ajmitch03:01
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bddebianDamn, another mentor e-mail.  Like I can mentor anyone :-(03:08
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jdongbddebian: learn me, oh great one :D03:17
bddebianhah, yeah right03:18
ajmitchbddebian: not bad, I've never managed to get an email about mentoring yet03:18
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bddebianajmitch: I've gotten several but rarely hear back :-(03:19
=== jdong thinks about saying something, then decides not
ajmitchjdong: probably a wise choice03:19
bddebianjdong: See you are already smarter than me, I would have said it ;-P03:19
jdongajmitch: You know I love you deep down inside.03:20
ajmitchI'm sure you do, very deep03:21
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ajmitchsaying that you're not saying something isn't really helping03:22
jdongoh come on it was not going to be anything mean03:23
jdongjust.... not appropriate humor for this channel.03:23
ajmitchs/for this channel//03:24
jdongpfft there's a time and a place for that's what she said jokes03:24
jdonglike.... The Office03:24
jdongor when my math teacher hands back a proof test that says "Stop working on both sides"03:25
jdong(well... he wasn't too amused at the remark....)03:25
=== ajmitch wonders when jdong is going for motu
jdongajmitch: do you think I have a chance?03:27
ajmitchat the moment, not much03:27
ajmitchI struggle to think of what you've contributed that can be measured for motu03:28
jdongit's on my list of goals somewhere03:28
jdongjust not the immediate future03:28
ajmitcheg new packages, fixes, etc03:28
ajmitchI'm sure there are some, I just don't know them03:28
jdongthere's not terribly many, but I've made some contributions in that manner03:31
jdongwithout a doubt not enough to be significant on the MOTU radar03:31
bddebianjdong: Don't worry me, ajmitch wouldn't have me either ;-)03:31
ajmitchonly because your application would be full of how much you suck, don't do anything, etc03:32
ajmitchtiring reading, really :)03:32
bddebianYou have a point there :-)03:34
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jdonglol03:35
jdongajmitch definitely practices the tough love thing03:35
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ajmitchwhy waste words on being nice?03:37
jdongI like that way of looking at it :)03:41
=== ajmitch might try & turn up to work late in the morning
ajmitchso that I can get to the motu meeting03:41
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jdongajmitch: I got classes and would have a very tough time making it ot the MOTU meeting... you think putting xserver-xgl on the agenda is any good if I don't show up?03:45
=== ajmitch shrugs
ajmitchdepends if the usual motu-uvf people are there03:46
ajmitchif I'm around, I'll try & remember03:46
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joejaxxhello imbrandon 04:45
imbrandonheya joejaxx 04:45
joejaxxhow have you been?04:46
imbrandongood good04:51
imbrandonbusy at times but good04:51
jdongimbrandon: I'm sorry for being an ass... :(04:51
ajmitchhi imbrandon 04:53
imbrandonheya jdong ajmitch 04:54
imbrandonjdong, np i just needed a bit to cool off04:54
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bddebianHeya LaserJock05:28
ajmitchhello LaserJock 05:28
LaserJockhi guys05:28
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tonyyarussophooey - I don't have a new upstream tarball yet (expected on Friday) and the dev is in bed already06:41
RAOFFor what?  Nvu?06:42
tonyyarussoRAOF: yes06:42
RAOF:(06:42
RAOFThat's why I like being upstream.  No pesky tarballs :)06:44
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siretartmorning folks08:34
ajmitchhi siretart 08:36
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dholbachgood morning08:49
ajmitchhi08:50
dholbachhi ajmitch08:51
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AstralJavaMorning dholbach.08:59
dholbachhi AstralJava08:59
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\shmoins09:37
ajmitchhi \sh 09:38
\shwine will be uploaded in a few.09:38
=== \sh gnarfs to edac amd patches and 2.6.20 vanilla kernel *gnarf*
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\shwine uploaded09:55
Lutinhello10:05
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ajmitchdholbach: we seem to have got through most of the uvf requests in the queue except xserver-xgl10:10
dholbachajmitch: i know10:10
ajmitchoh, and glom :)10:10
=== ajmitch looks\
ajmitchglom looks fairly ok10:11
dholbach:-D10:13
Lutinajmitch: was the sparc build of mlt successful ?10:17
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ajmitchLutin: eventually10:18
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Lutinajmitch: cool, thanks :)10:22
Lutinajmitch: could you upload the debdiff please ? it's at http://dunnewind.net/~lutin/code/mlt_0.2.2+cvs20070213-0ubuntu2.debdiff :)10:26
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=== TheMuso will be attending the MOTU meeting.
TheMusoHey all BTW.10:32
ajmitchhi TheMuso 10:35
ajmitchLutin: I'll take a look10:35
Lutinajmitch: thanks :)10:36
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poningruhow do I report a bug on https://bugs.launchpad.net/gnome-applets/+filebug11:09
poningruerr https://bugs.launchpad.net/gnome-applets11:09
poningruhttp://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41524211:09
UbugtuGnome bug 415242 in gweather "Hazardous weather alerts" [Enhancement,Unconfirmed]  11:09
poningruwanna work on that11:09
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poningruanyone?11:09
crimsunsweet, just closed nine bugs.11:35
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crimsunok, bed time for an hour.11:38
dholbachcrimsun: good night11:38
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GNUro'lo!11:43
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stan1hello02:36
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pirastajmitch, ping03:05
Hobbseepirast: he's asleep03:06
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pirasthobbsee, mhm okay.. thanks03:06
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pirasthobbsee, maybe you can help me?03:07
pirasttoo late :-(03:07
jdongsiretart: could I get you to look at the xserver-xgl UVFe?03:09
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siretartbug no?03:19
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siretartjdong: I've looked at it one more time, but I don't think I can decide on that. The changes are way too big for me to have good concience with approving it03:36
dholbachsiretart, slomo_, crimsun, ajmitch: maybe we should point out our concerns/feelings on the bug report and make it a decision03:38
siretartk03:39
jdongmy argument towards approving it is that the current xserver-xgl package is utterly useless/broken.03:39
jdongwhile the new one works fine. I've been running it for the two weeks just fine.03:39
jdongif we ship a broken Xgl, it's going to cause total confusion by everyone attempting to use xserver-xgl03:40
jdongand us not including it officially will simply lead to more illegitimate repositories with various half-baked attempts at updating xserver-xgl.03:40
jdongthe xserver-xgl package does not have any impact on any other package03:40
dholbachwhich of the current bugs will it fix?03:40
jdongdholbach: bug 8684103:41
UbugtuMalone bug 86841 in libxrandr "compiz/beryl does not refresh content of windows" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/8684103:41
dholbachthere are a couple of them open and nearly all of them unconfirmed/undecided03:41
jdongbasically beryl and compiz will not redraw at all with xserver-xgl in feisty03:41
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jdongmaking the whole package useless.03:41
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jdongbug 89716 too03:42
dholbachis it a libxrandr bug or xserver-xgl bug?03:42
UbugtuMalone bug 89716 in xserver-xgl "White screen with compiz (xgl and comp with different libGL to compiz?)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/8971603:42
jdongit's a libxrandr ABI change that caused it03:42
jdonga xserver-xgl bug for Xgl users03:42
jdongan AIGLX bug (fixed by rebuild/xorg 7.2 upload) for AIGLX'ers03:43
siretartjdong: I've just commented on the bug03:43
siretartjdong: is it correct that only fglrx users need xserver-xgl?03:44
jdongsiretart: fglrx and nvidia-legacy03:44
siretartah. hmm i see03:44
siretartso your point is to get the package either removed or updated, right?03:44
jdongright.03:44
dholbachdon't get me wrong, I appreciate your efforts - but for me looking at the update: I see 1) lots of bugs that look untouched, a 2) HUGE update, 3) no regular updates to the package at all03:45
siretarthonestly, I'm rather for removing, but since we don't have personal package archives or something, this is probabably too harsh...03:45
dholbachto me it's almost impossible to judge if it will work out or now03:45
dholbachthat's why I didn't comment any further on it03:46
jdongdholbach: from what your'e saying, it's better to totally remove the package?03:46
jdongsince the long-term maintenance of the package seems bleak?03:46
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dholbachno, of course I'd like better maintenance of it - removal can't be the answer to things like that03:47
siretartdholbach: that's an interesting question for the motu council, imo: What shall we do with packages, from who we know that they are broken? until now, we rather have let them be broken in releases, which is suboptimal as well :/03:47
dholbachI just want to clarify why nobody of the five team members answered on it earlier03:47
jdongok.03:47
jdongwell, better maintenance will start by making the package work....03:47
jdongshipping a version of xserver-xgl that just starts and does not ever redraw after starting03:47
jdongjust sounds illogical.03:47
dholbachof course it does... but maintenance is more than uploading a git snapshot - how willing are you to take care of the fallout of that update and further maintenance?03:48
jdongspeaking for myself, I'd be glad to devote time in making sure Xgl is taken care of03:49
jdongmy 3D desktop addiction depends on Xgl03:49
dholbachsiretart: removal should be the last solution in any case03:49
siretartdholbach: the point is that there is no one how has time and the ability to backport the fix from the new git snapshot to what we have in feisty. at least in the timeframe to feisty release03:49
jdongand the only case of fallout is if the package starts deleting random packages everywhere.03:49
jdongthe current package does not work period..... a new one can't possibly get worse.03:50
dholbachjdong: hu? what about 'usual' bug reports?03:50
siretartjdong: would you be willing to git bisect and identify the commit which makes xgl happy again?03:50
jdongsiretart: yeah I can, but it's gonna probably be a huge set of changes that port Xgl over to the new Xorg 7.2 and Mesa  API03:50
jdongdholbach: I'd be glad to sift thru the usual bug reports too if it makes you happy.03:51
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dholbachjdong: you don't do that to make me happy - you do that if you want to *maintain* the package03:51
siretartjdong: are you bug contact and work regularily on xserver-xgl?03:52
dholbachand make users happy and keep the package in shape03:52
jdongok, I've bugmailed myself to the package. I will triage all xserver-xgl bugs to the best of my ability.03:52
jdongsiretart: I just become bug contact; I didn't before work on xserver-xgl03:52
bddebianHeya gang03:52
dholbachjdong: I don't want to talk you into it03:52
siretarthuhu bddebian 03:52
bddebianHi siretart03:52
jdongdholbach: if someone more knowledgeable is willing to step up, I'd be cool with that....03:52
dholbachjdong: siretart sums it up quite well, when he says "To me this is update could mean a totally other set of bugs"03:52
jdongI am not the world's most confident person in my abilities.03:52
jdongsiretart: what other kind of bugs can be generated?03:53
jdongI cannot imagine how xgl could get any worse03:53
jdongit a'ready doesn't draw.03:53
jdonghmm03:53
siretartjdong: like, well, not working any more on cards which worked before, or causing dataloss on cards you didn't test before or anything03:54
jdongsiretart: it works on 0 cards right now.03:54
siretartjdong: how can you be sure?03:54
jdongsiretart: and rendering opengl textures causing data loss? :)03:54
jdongsiretart: because xserver-xgl is compiled against Xorg 7.0.0, does not build against current feisty03:54
jdongand I've yet to find one person in #beryl or antoher desktop effects community03:55
jdongthat says Feisty xgl works03:55
siretartjdong: let's make a deal: please triage the existing bugs on xserver-xgl, mark duplicates as dups, and mention fixed bugs in your updated package. 03:55
dholbachand we should have an announce somewhere03:55
dholbachthat people test it and report back03:55
jdongsiretart: ok, will do.03:56
dholbachmaybe the team around ubuntu-desktop-effects can help with that03:56
jdongdholbach: heh I think everyone developing Ubuntu has moved on to the AIGLX framework.03:56
siretartjdong: I'm pretty surprised that an ABI break in mesa/x11 breaks xserver-xgl. if this was true, the package should have been renamed so that all depending packages are forced to be recompiled. in this case, please file a bug about this03:56
jdongsiretart: there's plenty more ABI breaks caused by Xorg 7.2's upgrade03:57
siretartjdong: but I'm not an xorg guru as well. I'm just pretty surprised03:57
jdongsiretart: for starters , start DrScheme and hit any menu entry03:57
jdongpow, xlib->xcb assertion failure03:57
jdongsearching xcb in Launchpad reveals a bunch more03:57
siretartjdong: well, I'd consider this a bug in packaging then. ABI breakage really should be represented in the packaging03:58
siretartjdong: in xorg/xcb packaging03:58
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jdongok03:59
jdongif that's corrected, that just means all incompatible packages would be uninstallable....03:59
siretartjdong: exactly!03:59
jdongthat's a great solution.03:59
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siretartwell, it's not that great, but at least lets us easily identify broken packages04:00
siretarthi allee!04:00
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jdong*sigh*04:07
AnAntHello, is there a different between Edgy & Feisty in the way keystrokes are dealt with under the virtual console ?04:08
jdongmaybe I do know too much about this xgl stuff04:08
jdongit's amusing how many bug numbers relating to this stuff I've committed to memory04:08
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jdongsiretart / dholbach: ok, these bugs are too overwhelming for me to deal with....04:16
jdongI'm not an X developer by any means04:16
siretartjdong: I totally understand your point, and let me assure you, you are not the first who comes up with the same arguments in this discussion. I e.g. remember lucas arguing with ruby very similar04:16
jdongwell there's got to be a better solution for Feisty than shipping a broken version or removing it altogether....04:17
siretartergo sum: xgl in ubuntu remains unmaintained. which is sad :(04:17
dholbachjdong: nobody asks you to fix the bugs04:17
dholbachjdong: but it helps to ask for more info and feed the information back to upstream04:17
jdongdholbach: I can't even classify the bugs in any way...04:17
jdongother than yes they happen, no they don't.04:17
dholbach... establish wiki pages with debugging info04:17
dholbachhmhmhm04:18
dholbachthat's why it's hard to do updates like that :-(04:18
siretartton's of 'unconfirmed' bugs looks like tons of bugs nobody did even care to read about them04:18
dholbachyep04:18
jdongthat's just a byfactor of the nature of Xgl....04:19
jdongit's an ugly workaround to 3D desktops04:19
siretartespc. when there are so many bugs with the same bug title04:19
jdongand it also pushes OpenGL limits on those video cards04:19
jdongyeah all these crashes with stacktraces/whatnot attached04:19
jdongthey're really hard to validate or classify.04:19
siretartjdong: if a software is unmaintainable, I fear that I don't see many other options than removing :(04:20
dholbachstacktraces you can retrace and forward upstream04:20
dholbachand if you get lots of them you can probably mark lots of them as duplicates04:20
dholbachbut that's work04:20
jdongI'm not sure if they are duplicates04:20
siretartdholbach: which is hard if upstream just tells you to try a later version :/ - what would really help here is if launchpad would automatically retrace the .crash files (which is planned, I assume)04:21
dholbachyes it is04:21
jdongwell... I'd rather see this package removed in this case. It appears pretty unsupported and nobody wants to support it.04:21
dholbachbut it's not hard to run         apport-retrace -su <bug number>              on your box04:21
jdongand those who show interest in it don't have the knowledge or time to do it04:21
siretartwow. that looks neat04:22
jdongmaintaining xserver-xgl is such a oxymoron too... all the library paths are different04:23
jdongdepending on your video driver....04:23
jdongyou have to PRELOAD the binary's xlibmesa anyway to get Xgl to work04:23
jdongIMO this package is best pseudo-supported unofficially by Beryl repositories.04:24
siretartdholbach: apport-retrace -u seems undcoumented (?!)04:24
dholbach       -u, --unpack-only04:24
dholbach              Only unpack the additionally required packages, do not configure04:24
dholbach              them.  The additional packages are purged again after retracing.04:24
dholbach              This is particularly useful when running this program in a fake04:24
dholbach              root   environment,  when  not  every  package  can  be  cleanly04:24
dholbach              installed completely.04:24
jdongwell, and these bugs don't retrace04:24
jdongthey are before Doomsday04:24
dholbachapport-retrace 0.6304:24
jdongany bug before 2/20-ish will not retrace anymore.04:24
PriceChildjdong, Me and lupine were discussing putting a fixed xserver-xgl onto our repos if it wasn't fixed for feisty.04:24
dholbachjdong: that's something a maintainer needs to do04:25
jdongPriceChild: I think it's best to have the whole package moved to feisty.04:25
jdongerr, beryl.04:25
dholbachjdong: ask for more info - ask people to try to reproduce etc04:25
PriceChildI'm sure we could accommodate it.04:25
jdongdholbach: now you're just sending me on an 81*2-click snipe hunt.04:25
jdongEVERY bug is like this.04:25
jdongI've just looked through the first 2004:26
dholbachjdong: what am I?04:26
siretartdholbach: you seem to have some other apport than me: apport-retrace: error: no such option: -u04:26
dholbachsiretart: <dholbach> apport-retrace 0.6304:26
siretartoh, I'm still at 0.61 :)04:26
dholbachhe split it into a new package04:26
jdongdholbach: trying to occupy me with a menial task so that I go away or infinitely get bogged in this.04:26
jdonggoing thru 81 bugs and setting NeedsInfo04:27
dholbachjdong: what?04:27
dholbachjdong: I said a couple of times, that you don't have to make me happy04:27
jdongwell at this point I there's no option but to remove xserver-xgl.04:27
siretartit that's the best, then so be it. sad but true04:28
dholbachjdong: I just said what it takes to maintain software - you can't just update 3 million lines of code and let people just deal with what you did - it's hard to measure progress of such an update if you (or somebody else) didn't look at bugs before04:28
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jdongnobody is willing to maintain it....04:28
dholbachjdong: I definitely didn't say "go away" or "give you a task"04:28
dholbachand I didn't mean to04:28
jdongand making it work and maintaining it seem to conflict in this case.04:28
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dholbachif you look at other uvf bugs, I asked people a couple of times to look at the fallout and bug reports stemming from their updates04:29
jdongdholbach: sorry. You gave me the <do this> <do that> see? not so easy to do it. No fix.04:29
dholbachand it's quite natural to do that04:29
jdongI'm just saying in this case I see no fallout potential04:29
dholbachNo, it's not easy. I agree with you on that.04:30
jdongother than xgl going on a file-deleting rampage.04:30
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jdongand that is not good enough of a reason as it seems :)04:30
dholbachOk... when I talk about "fallout" I mean bug reports which originate from the update.04:30
jdongso that leaves the only choice to be removing the package.04:30
jdongdholbach: if every program started with return 0, there would be no bug reports :)04:31
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jdongany bug reports arising from this would simply mean xserver-xgl worked again.04:31
dholbach...04:32
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jdongas I said, there is not one example that anyone can come up with as to what can be worse than this package in its current, totally-broken state.04:33
siretarttoo bad that we don't have a 'temp. remove package' yet :(04:34
jdongIMO Xorg 7.2 should not have gone in.04:35
jdongthe fact that it got in after UVF is utterly frustratingly unfair.04:35
=== siretart agrees
jdongespecially since it inhibits fixing several programs that it broke.04:36
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jdonghttps://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.searchtext=xcb+assertion&orderby=-importance&search=Search&field.status%3Alist=Unconfirmed&field.status%3Alist=Confirmed&field.status%3Alist=In+Progress&field.status%3Alist=Needs+Info&field.status%3Alist=Fix+Committed&field.assignee=&field.owner=&field.omit_dupes=on&field.has_patch=&field.has_no_package=04:36
jdong^^ that's some of the stuff broken by Xorg 7.204:37
jdongmost of which is fixed by a long stream of upstream changesets that accomodate Xorg 7.204:37
jdongwhich of course are painstakenly hard to backport04:37
jdongand yay for UVF.04:38
dholbachcan you follow up with that information in the bug report?04:38
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jdongyeah04:39
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jdonganyway, got to get to classes04:42
jdongI'll see you guys later04:42
dholbachsee you04:42
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heinz55http://www.drogendealer.de/cgi-bin/dd.cgi?z8nBe44s05:00
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dholbachsiretart: do you want to put 'removal of packages' up for discussion for the MOTU meeting later?05:42
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Toadstoolgood morning everybody!05:45
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ScottKGood morning Toadstool.05:46
Toadstoolhi ScottK 05:46
dholbachok see you later for the meeting05:46
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tonyyarussoIs there any reason scim would be needed for non-asian languages?  (English and Spanish)07:17
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Riddellwhere is the upstream version freeze exception process documented?07:51
jdonghttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess07:52
shawarmahttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess07:52
shawarma*G*07:52
jdongshawarma: I hereby sue you for IP infringement.07:52
jdong:)07:52
shawarmaMy irssi tells me I beat you to it. :-)07:52
shawarmaYou *soooo* slow.07:52
shawarma:-)07:52
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jdongshawarma: well... I'm on MITNet. So I must have been faster.07:53
jdongtake that.07:53
shawarmaWow. It's got a built in time machine?07:53
jdongyes :)07:53
jdongactually the internet revolves around my laptop.07:53
shawarmaThat's a lot of responsibility.07:54
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jdongI know.07:54
tonyyarussolol07:54
stgraberjdong answer was the first one to be show (at least here) :)07:54
jdong:)07:54
tonyyarussoI saw jdong first too07:55
tonyyarussoSo, Is there any reason scim would be needed for non-asian languages?  (English and Spanish)07:55
=== tonyyarusso is wondering about whether to include it on a system
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shawarmastgraber, tonyyarusso: Bah.07:57
shawarma:-)07:57
stgraber:)07:57
stgrabershawarma: by the way, thank you for the fix for openvpn, now it's possible to configure it without using the ALT key to move the settings window.07:58
stgrabershawarma: just this little "push" thing and I'll be able to avoid the use of my ugly scripts :)07:58
shawarmastgraber: I'm working on it right now. 08:00
stgrabergood to hear, thank you very much08:00
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igorhi all.. where can I learn about package pre-seed?08:02
stgraberReloading internet, will certainly be disconnected ... (but that's a risk to take to have 1 more MB :))08:03
tonyyarussoigor: apt-get source ubuntu-desktop and look around08:04
igortonyyarusso: thankz ;-008:04
igorI will give a try08:04
sladenlook around you .... just look, around you08:04
shawarmastgraber: Any preference about the text next to the checkbox?08:06
stgrabershawarma: "Pull options from the server" ?08:06
shawarmastgraber: Alright.08:06
stgrabershawarma: If you don't have an OpenVPN server configured to use "push", you can simply upload the dsc, source and diff somewhere and I'll pbuild + test it locally08:08
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mr_pouitDoes someone have an idea for Bug #85898 ? it fails only on buildd, so I can't really test :/08:12
UbugtuMalone bug 85898 in kxgenerator "[feisty]  FTBFS" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/8589808:12
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ajmitchmorning08:14
gesermr_pouit: install pkgbinarymangler inside your pbuilder and build the package with it, it contains the pkgtranslationstrip script08:15
mr_pouitgeser: ok, i'll try this, thanks.08:15
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sistpotyhi folks08:16
ajmitchhi sistpoty 08:16
sistpotyhi ajmitch08:16
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igorwhere can I find this binary: germinate-update-metapackage08:20
ajmitchgerminate08:21
igorajmitch: thankz08:21
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igorwhere is the content of this variable "${ubuntu-minimal:Depends} (and others)08:24
geserigor: have you looked already in debian/rules?08:25
igorno.08:26
igori found08:26
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igorfor seed in minimal standard desktop; do package=ubuntu-$$seed; 08:27
igor... >> debian/$$package.substvars; (then the substvars are created)08:27
igorfine ;-)08:27
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igorgeser: thank you08:28
igorvery smart indeed.08:28
tonyyarussoigor: text files in parent dir08:28
igortonyyarusso: I found it08:29
igor{desktop,minima,standard}-{$ARCH}08:29
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igors/minima/minimal/g08:29
igor{desktop,minimal,standard}{,-recommends}-{$ARCH} (this fits better ;-)08:31
igorbtw, im also looking for how to feed my debconf with answers (example ntpdate servers, or locales to be generated), there is any documentation explaning how to do that?08:32
tonyyarussoigor: I ran across some recently - a sec08:33
igortonyyarusso: sure. ;-) 08:33
sistpotygpocentek: anything you'd like to add to Luka's application? if not, I'll send a mail to TB with our resolution, ok?08:35
ajmitchsistpoty: I'm surprised you're up so early ;)08:37
sistpoty:P08:38
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LaserJockMOTU Meeting in 20min?08:38
tonyyarussoigor: This page and the various links from it may be useful: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallCDCustomization#head-d2e2ac6138c17dbdea4fdc90935c64eadf6388d708:39
igortonyyarusso: thankz I will read them all ;-)08:39
TheMusoHey all.08:39
ajmitchLaserJock: so they say08:39
LaserJockmy wife got in a bit of a car accident this morning08:39
LaserJockso I'm not quite at work yet08:39
LaserJockso I might be a tad late to the meeting08:40
ajmitchouch08:40
siretarthuhu sistpoty, hi ajmitch, hey LaserJock! :)08:41
sistpotyhi TheMuso08:41
sistpotyhi siretart08:41
sistpotyhi LaserJock08:41
LaserJockhi sistpoty and siretart 08:41
ajmitchsiretart, ltns :)08:41
Toadstoolhi *08:41
sistpotysiretart: /me is just looking at bug #8957308:41
UbugtuMalone bug 89573 in pypanel "Pypanel packages does not include the pypanel binary" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/8957308:41
sistpotysiretart: I don't know what to make of the proposed patch there...08:42
siretartajmitch: oh, I'm around from time to time, but I'm quite busy with work :/08:42
ajmitchoh that bug08:42
sistpotymr_pouit: ^^08:42
sistpotymr_pouit: why do you need to change the python-path in the patch?08:42
siretartsistpoty: assuming that it fixes the problem, it seems pretty short, no? ;)08:43
sistpotysiretart: well, I'm not sure *if* it fixes the problem actually... will the binary work then?08:44
siretartbut you're right. it is pretty strange why this one needs some private modules of python-xlib08:44
mr_pouitsistpoty: it's the only fix I found (it seems that python-support modules dirs aren't in python path on edgy ?)08:44
siretartI mean they are private for a reason, no?08:44
ajmitchsistpoty: I fought with python-xlib for a bit to try & get it to show08:44
ajmitchthey're not meant to be private, the bug should be fixed in python-xlib08:44
siretartmr_pouit: they are, but private modules are, well, private08:44
siretartajmitch: okay, but that's another bug then..08:45
sistpotyajmitch: yes, I agree that this fix should rather be in python-xlib... 08:45
ajmitchsistpoty: yep :)08:45
siretartso if we all guess right, the patch rather works around a bug in python-xlib08:45
mr_pouitsiretart: so it's a bug of python-xlib, not pypanel...08:45
siretartso do we want to accept this workaround?08:45
ajmitchit's a bug in python-xlib, fixing that would mean having to rebuild pypanel08:45
sistpotymr_pouit: it's both... ideally python-xlib would be fixed first, and pypanel would only be rebuild08:46
sistpotysiretart: I'm a little bit undecided on this, I guess I'd prefer having python-xlib fixed first, but it's not a strong opinion08:46
siretartand first we need to find out why it is private in python-xlib after all08:46
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LaserJockok, I'm heading to work, hopefully I'll be back in 20min or so.08:48
sistpotylater LaserJock08:49
igortonyyarusso: it helped A LOT! Thankz.. amazing file. btw iso linux can read from network, usb or floppy?08:49
mr_pouitsistpoty: ok (fixing python-xlib would be a little cleaner than my workaround so). And there are only 2 packages which depends on python-xlib08:50
siretartpuh08:50
siretartmr_pouit: which is the other one?08:50
sistpotyxkeysw-config08:50
siretarthm.08:51
=== sistpoty tests xkeysw-config
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sistpotyhi dholbach08:53
=== \sh will have a cigarette and will then join the meeting
ajmitchhi dholbach 08:53
=== ajmitch might try & be in the meeting
dholbachhi sistpoty, hi ajmitch08:54
bddebianMeeting is when?08:54
dholbachhi guys08:54
dholbach6m08:54
ajmitchdholbach: so was there some agreement on xgl?08:54
ajmitchbddebian: RSN08:54
sistpotyoh, nice... xkeysw-config is broken as well, but first and foremost due to a python2.4 anywhere in the script08:54
bddebianRSN?08:54
ajmitchReal Soon Now08:55
dholbachreal soon now08:55
=== sistpoty runs for a coffee and a cigarette then
bddebianAhh08:55
=== ajmitch should run out & grab a drink, back in 2 min
siretartsistpoty: wow. se we can fix 3 packages with one SRU :)08:57
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ajmitchsistpoty: pypanel would still need a rebuild09:00
=== ajmitch has caffeine, yay
siretartdholbach: I've ust added the point from this afternoon to the agenda: broken packages (you'll surely remember)09:02
dholbachsiretart: ok09:02
tonyyarussoigor: I think so, ya09:03
igortonyyarusso: if it could read from network and recieve parameters from command line.. will be perfect 4 tests before final compilation. ;-)09:03
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bddebianAm I missing the meeting?  I'm in a meeting at work :(09:35
ajmitchyes09:35
bddebianfruck09:37
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crimsunbddebian: yeah, I'm juggling meetings too. Thankfully this other one is about professional certificates. :)09:42
bddebian:)09:42
tonyyarussocrimsun: righto09:44
crimsuntonyyarusso: yeah, my thinking is that the Debian New Maintainers' Guide already does a terrific job. The Ubuntu packaging guide could just use that as the base (more strongly than it does currently) and offer cookbook solutions.09:44
tonyyarussocrimsun: I can see that, although the Ubuntu PG is a bit friendlier than the Debian one atm, for starting with09:45
crimsunright, but the UPG can outline the points "most suitable" for new packagers, for instance09:46
crimsuna feisty+1 job, for sure09:46
tonyyarussoEven something arranged intended as an appendix to the DNMG as "First time? Some quick simplifications to get you started, then refer back once you get going" would be cool, then the rest cookbook-style maybe09:48
crimsunI'd say put that at the beginning of the UPG09:48
crimsunMost textbooks/references have something of the sort09:48
tonyyarussoMmhmm09:49
\shguys, regarding php4-transition...do we have to remove all php4 binary packages from the php-app/module source packages?10:01
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ryanakcawhat does "dpkg-source: error: Version number suggests Ubuntu changes, but Maintainer: does not have Ubuntu address" mean?10:05
=== ryanakca changed it from 0ubuntu1 to 0ubuntu2, and I have an @kubuntu.org address... but ?
Toadstoolryanakca: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2007-February/000249.html10:06
Lureryanakca: it has to be ubuntu.com afair10:07
ryanakcashucks...10:08
geserLure: anything containing ubuntu should work10:08
LaserJockargg10:08
LaserJockdid I miss everything10:08
LaserJock?10:08
Luregeser: then kubuntu.org should be fine...10:08
ryanakcaLure: aha... kk10:09
Lureryanakca: did you change Maintainer or just changelog?10:09
geserryanakca: Maintainer should contain ubuntu10:09
ryanakca  Ubuntu Core Developers <ubuntu-devel-discuss at lists.ubuntu.com>             should it be     Kubuntu Core Developers <kubuntu-devel at lists.ubuntu.com>           , since it's amarok?10:10
geserAFAIK is a more specific address ok10:10
crimsun\sh: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2007-February/023313.html is a nice summary of sorts. So get rid of php4-specific stuff or add the alt Deps10:10
ryanakcaCurrently it's set to the debian devel, https://launchpad.net/~adeodato/ .10:11
crimsunryanakca: set Maintainer to Ubuntu Core Developers <ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com>10:11
geserif you change Maintainer put the old one into XSBC-Original-Maintainer10:11
ryanakcacrimsun: kk10:11
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\shcrimsun: ok...so removing php4-* binary packages from debian/control where we have php5-* binary packages10:14
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ajmitchhi Hobbsee 10:14
\shoh fck...it's 9:14pm UTC...and I'm sitting still in the office10:15
=== ryanakca waves to Hobbsee of the Pointy Stick
ryanakca\sh: ouch..10:15
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Hobbseehey ajmitch, ryanakca 10:16
\shbut good for my new FAI server...which looks very nice now, and it's 40% faster installing a machine from now on...10:16
jdong_god straight Xorg uses a lot of redraw CPU.10:17
jdong_the day that I admit to Compiz improving performance... oh boy10:18
ajmitchthe day that compiz actually works *properly*10:18
sistpotythe day my thesis is finished *g*10:18
crimsunit's a Feature!10:18
bddebianheh10:18
=== Hobbsee wonders how long ago the meeting finished
bddebianAbout 10 minutes10:19
Hobbseeah right10:20
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siretart\sh: did you already try the latest fai (3.1.7)?10:21
=== Hobbsee wonders if there were any decent conclusions, and if someone is writing up the minute
Hobbsees10:22
\shsiretart: nope..I'm sitting on 3.0.x fai...I don't have the time to test other versions...I just needed working yum support10:22
siretart\sh: nobse also uses fai to install suse servers...10:23
ToadstoolHobbsee: yet another SRU policy 10:23
Toadstoolsimpler than the previous one though10:23
\shsiretart: hehe...I can decide now: sles9 ubuntu or rhel :)10:23
\shor debian10:24
siretart\sh: but he is using apt-get, suse seem to provide 'official' apt sources for their repo10:24
HobbseeToadstool: hooray!10:24
Toadstool:)10:24
\shsiretart: for opensuse that's right...for sles9 you are fcked in any way...I'm using self managed yum repositories...10:24
=== Hobbsee only did one of the last lot, so it wouldnt be too hard to use a new process.
\shsiretart: but the debian repos style :)10:25
siretarthm. ic10:25
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\shsiretart: also, we have far too many self made rpm packages...beginning from kernels to oracle server/client packages 10:26
\shsiretart: very nasty 10:26
siretart\sh: I was just curious, partly because I talkt to Thomas this weekend10:27
siretartI talked, even..10:27
\shoh did I say...oracle-client 10.2 does work on dapper 10:27
sistpotyHobbsee: I'm writing the minutes... 10:28
Hobbseenice, thanks10:28
\shsiretart: well, tbh, FAI itself is not a big problem anymore...more a problem is, the asset management, which has to be done with HP ServiceDesk..and I need to write some tools which are querying this HP SD tool to get some deployment data from it...10:28
ajmitchcrimsun: it's a great feature of compiz that I can't type in my password for nm-applet10:29
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ajmitchnot showing anything in the window is a great security feature there10:29
crimsunajmitch: neat! On this machine, I get the excellent proactive security feature of turning my entire screen black. Can't even log out.10:29
ajmitchimpressive!10:30
ajmitchcompiz mostly works for me on the laptop, so I'm pretty lucky10:30
\shsiretart: the next big problem...yum is not the right tool for managing software updates and downgrades...10:30
ajmitch\sh: not many packages will handles downgrades cleanly10:30
\shajmitch: without getting slow screen output during the next 5 minutes? ,-)10:30
ajmitch\sh: works fine, I've started using compiz as my main WM on the laptop10:31
\shajmitch: that's right...but we need to do it sometimes...especially when the devs are doing some nasty shit ;)10:31
\shajmitch: nvidia or ati card?10:32
LaserJockso is it 2 testing acks from anybody for SRU?10:32
\shanyways I have to sleep a bit...so I need to go to my hotel :(10:32
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\shcu tomorrow :)10:32
crimsunLaserJock: essentially10:33
LaserJockcrimsun: does the MOTU sponsor count? seems like they should10:34
crimsunLaserJock: yes10:34
LaserJockok, thanks for the info, sorry I didn't make it10:34
crimsunnp, we know married deities have to run the world10:34
LaserJockheh10:35
siretartah, sparky seems to be indeed used by fellow MOTUs :)10:35
siretarthope it isn't too slow...10:35
welshbytehm, you know you've been away too long when you have to look up the acronyms on the wiki10:38
bddebianHeh, heya welshbyte10:38
welshbyteello bddebian 10:38
ryanakcawhat's an nmu?10:39
welshbytenon maintainer upload10:39
tonyyarussoryanakca: non-maintainer-upload - ignore it10:40
ryanakcaah10:40
ryanakcakk10:40
welshbyteand that one wasn't even on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Acronyms :)10:40
mr_pouitsistpoty: (or crimsun) eventually, what was decided for pypanel? Do you still want a complete debdiff, or does it affects python-xlib ?10:40
LaserJockthere's a Mozilla Team Council?10:40
tonyyarussoLaserJock: there is now10:41
mr_pouit*affect10:41
LaserJockhow odd10:41
sistpotymr_pouit: we decided on the meeting that we won't have the motu-sru team any longer, and any motu can upload to -proposed10:43
sistpotymr_pouit: so basically you'll just have to find a sponsor for the diff, who'll take care now10:43
jdong_sistpoty: who can +1?10:43
jdong_and how many needed10:43
sistpotyjdong_: there won't be +1 needed for -proposed any longer10:44
sistpotyjdong_: only 7 days of  testing and 2 works for me10:44
jdong_sistpoty: and anyone can worksforme?10:45
sistpotyjdong_: yep10:45
jdong_sistpoty: wow this is excellent news indeed10:45
sistpotyjdong_: yes it is. I hope that we'll finally get stuff into updates in a timely matter now :)10:47
sistpoty(and I don't need to write motu-sru reports any longer as a side effect *g*)10:47
mr_pouit^^10:47
mr_pouitsistpoty: ok10:47
tonyyarussoIs anyone aware of licensing issues or other problems with Slim (Simple login manager) to keep it out of the repos?10:48
mr_pouitmaybe missing COPYING file in orig tarball ?10:48
sistpotymr_pouit: anyway as I've already said, I'd prefer to fix python-xlib, but if you can make sure that pypanel works fine with the workaround, I don't see a problem with that as well (due to only two rdepends of python-xlib)10:49
Lutinajmitch: did you have some time to have a look to mlt ?10:49
jdong_sistpoty:  so eum, that means the Azureus fix is finally going to be in edgy-updates right? :D10:50
mr_pouitsistpoty: I checked on a pbuilder and it worked, but I'll try to look at python-xlib before attaching full debdiff10:50
sistpotyjdong_: yep... I'll plan on doing some uploads later tonight... but feel free to help out and sponsor any SRU's which have 2 works for me and are older than 7 days for -updates ;)10:51
sistpotymr_pouit: please check also if it works actually, not just if it builds ;)10:51
jdong_sistpoty: I'm not MOTU, remember? ;-)10:51
jdong_sistpoty: is there a wiki document or mailing list post about this decision?10:52
crimsundholbach is preparing the announcement.10:52
sistpotyjdong_: not yet... I'm writing on the minutes of the meeting and dholbach will write an announcement and update the wiki10:53
jdong_ok, thanks10:53
jdong_could I subscribe to the virtual MOTU pinging service for when that gets posted? :D10:53
sistpotyjdong_: you can subscribe to both the wiki page and ubuntu-motu ml? *g*10:54
crimsunI presume you're subscribed to ubuntu-devel-discuss@ and ubuntu-motu@ already?10:54
Toadstooltonyyarusso: no licensing issues afaik, just noone's packaged it well enough for it to be uploaded yet10:55
LaserJockcrimsun: cookbook packaging guide, interesting idea10:55
tonyyarussoToadstool: Has there been a pkging attempt that you are aware of ?10:56
Toadstooler... yeah I tried a few months ago ^^10:56
Toadstoolnever took the time to finish it though10:56
Toadstooltonyyarusso: https://code.launchpad.net/~jcorbier/+branch/slim/ubuntu <-- there you go if you want to finish waht I've done so far10:57
tonyyarussoToadstool: Cool, thanks.10:57
tonyyarussoToadstool: Do you know what outstanding issues there were?10:58
Toadstoolnone, just been too busy to package anything else lately10:58
tonyyarussook10:59
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jdong_sistpoty: lol :)11:03
jdong_crimsun: I have to admit I am not subscribed to those high volume lists, but I do read thru the archives11:03
LaserJock-motu isn't high volume11:05
LaserJock-devel-discuss can be sorta11:05
LaserJockbugmail is high volume :-)11:05
=== bddebian hasn't even moved from edgy-updates to feisty-updates :-(
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jdong_LaserJock: if you say so11:06
securebootanyone know of any documentation about how to package an init.d script? just call update-rc.d from postinst?11:06
sistpoty-motu even doesn't receive much spam...11:06
securebootand have a file install to /etc/init.d11:06
sistpoty(which is moderated away anyways)11:06
gesersecureboot: man dh_installinit11:07
securebootgeser: call that from postinst?11:07
securebootnm11:08
securebootlooks more complicated - i'll look for examples11:08
geserno, it's debhelper scripts which you call from debian/rules and do the necessary work11:08
gesermv the file to the right place and add the necessary scriptlets to postinst11:09
tonyyarussodebhelper scripts are pretty impressive, I've found11:09
geserbut you can do it also all by hand if you want11:10
securebootgeser: that's just an update-rc.d call, right?11:10
stgraberAny of you using Feisty has some problem with GPG signature with archive.ubuntu.com ?11:10
ScottKWay back when (ok - 3 months ago) it was suggested that I try and get the stuff I was bringing to Ubuntu into Debian.  I've started working on that.  I'd appreciate a point/how-to for setting up a sid chroot on an Ubuntu box.  Any pointers?11:10
gesersecureboot: yes11:10
ScottKstgraber: Yes.11:10
stgraberI have a BADSIG here and not when using my local mirror (~3 hours from archive)11:10
tonyyarussostgraber: Yes, all the time.  Running apt-get update usually fixes it11:11
tonyyarussoScottK: why not just use pbuilder?11:12
=== tonyyarusso has never tried chroot
=== ScottK has never tried pbuilder.
LaserJockScottK: what?11:12
LaserJockboth of you need to try both :-)11:12
ScottKOK.11:12
TheMusoLaserJock: I'd probably say, even must.11:13
ScottKI'm game.11:13
LaserJockTheMuso: well, if you put it that way ;-)11:13
TheMusodchroot rocks11:13
LaserJockScottK: a plain chroot can easily end up cluttered with all kinds of stuff11:13
TheMusoChroots are great for early release cycles.11:13
LaserJockScottK: pbuilder allows you get closer to the buildd environment11:14
ScottKLaserJock: Yes, but I don't think that'll be a problem for the Python stuff I'm doing.11:14
TheMusoAnd for working on packages from other versions of a distro that you don't want a full install of./11:14
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LaserJockScottK: but we recommend you pbuilder *any* source package we sponsor11:14
TheMusoI simply keep base tarballs of chroots, and refresh them from time to time.11:14
ScottKOK.  How about a "use pbuilder to build packages for sid on Ubuntu" how to?11:15
LaserJockScottK: no problemo11:15
LaserJockScottK: grab http://tiber.tauware.de/~laserjock/pbuilder-sid11:15
LaserJockdrop it into your path some where and run pbuilder-sid create11:15
LaserJockyou'll also want to create the results directory11:16
LaserJockwhich is ~/pbuilder/sid_result in the script ^^11:16
LaserJockbut you can tweak it to whatever you like11:16
ScottKCool.  I think I can manage that.11:16
LaserJockScottK: I also have an Ubuntu one too11:17
LaserJockpbuilder-feisty11:17
LaserJockthat one you can just cp pbuilder-feisty pbuilder-edgy && pbuilder-edgy create11:18
ScottKThanks.  I'll experiment.11:18
LaserJockI guess I should have it create the result dir if it doesn't already exist11:18
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LaserJocktonyyarusso: you need http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/appendix-chroot.html11:19
tonyyarussoLaserJock: ty11:20
LaserJocktonyyarusso: or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebootstrapChroot11:20
sistpotyanyone who'd like to proofread the minutes? http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/8997/11:20
ScottKAny meeting minutes I didn't have to write are by definition perfect.11:21
LaserJocksistpoty: seems good11:21
sistpotyLaserJock: thx11:21
LaserJockI have some follow up I'd like to do since I was gone11:22
crimsunsistpoty: edited. 8998/11:22
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ajmitchLaserJock: oh?11:23
ScottKLaserJock: I'm helping one of the leaders of the Debian Python modules team write a "So you've packaged for Ubuntu, here's what you need to know to get started with Python modules in Debian" How to.  Unless you don't want me to, I think it makes sense to refer to your pbuilder script there?11:24
sistpotythx crimsun11:24
LaserJockScottK: how big is this HowTo going to be? And how much is different?11:25
ScottKIt's going to be pretty short.  11:25
LaserJockScottK: actually, let me clean it up a tad, give me a sec11:26
ScottKMostly here's who you ask to get on the team, here's where you have to register.11:26
ScottKNo rush.11:26
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ScottKHere's ways that Ubuntu and Debian are different (e.g. in Ubuntu if the change is small, I don't patch, I modify the source files, but Debian almost always wants a patch).11:27
LaserJockScottK: we don't patch?11:30
bddebianI don't if it's small11:30
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LaserJockI wouldn't think we'd be any different than Debian there11:31
LaserJockI don't know of course, I just wouldn't have thought we'd be different there11:31
ScottKWhat I got told was if there's not patch system there already, don't create one unless you really need to.11:31
ScottKThe difference is more a matter of emphasis from my perspective and VERY limited experience.11:31
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bddebianWTF, I thought the hug day was going to be on Friday?11:38
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tsmithebddebian, looks like it's not then11:40
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sistpotybddebian: seems like this is even a different hug day than the universe one 11:46
sistpotybdmurray: the hug day you announced is not for universe, right?11:47
bddebianOh11:47
sistpotys/not for/not targeted at/11:47
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bdmurraybddebian: I hadn't seen any discussion about a Friday hug day11:53
davieyHi, when i try to build a package i am getting "dpkg-checkbuilddeps: error: control file must have at least one binary package part"  Why is this?11:53
bdmurraysistpoty: not particularly for universe, no11:53
sistpotybdmurray: ah, k... because we just decided to do a hug day on friday in the meeting and got a little bit confused *g*11:53
sistpotydaviey: check if there is one binary package listed in debian/control11:54
sistpoty(at least one binary package)11:54
davieysistpoty, here is my control file http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/9005/plain/11:55
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bdmurraysistpoty: okay, sorry about that.  What do you have planned for Friday?11:55
ajmitchbdmurray: tagging bugs11:55
sistpotybdmurray: tackle universe bugs in particular11:56
sistpotybdmurray: no problem... was really just a small confusion right now ;)11:56
davieysistpoty, any idea?11:57
sistpotydaviey: you're missing the binary package that should result from the source package... give me a sec and I'll update your pastebin entry11:57
bddebianTime to head home, later gang11:58
davieysistpoty, thanks!11:58
bdmurrayajmitch: Have you written anything up about tagging bugs?11:58
ajmitchnot me11:58
davieysistpoty, i managed to build a src package, but a binary package was giving me a headache11:59
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sistpotydaviey: I guess that could give you a start: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/9010/12:03
davieybrb, thanks12:04
sistpotycrimsun, ajmitch, gpocentek: I'm just about to mail tb about Lure's application... anything I should add to the mail? http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/9011/12:05
sistpoty(or any mistakes? *g*)12:05
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sistpotyadded the lp-id: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/9012/12:08
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