[02:04] <wick2o> is there a generic way to preseed the Disk psace to partition: ?
[02:05] <wick2o> ive tried partman-auto/init_automatically_partition select Erase entire disk:*
[06:00] <fabbione> morning
[06:01] <LaserJock> hi fabbione 
[06:02] <Hobbsee> hey fabbione!
[06:46] <dholbach> good morning
[07:14] <pitti> Good morning
[07:14] <Hobbsee> heya pitti!
[07:28] <dholbach> ogra: new dia
[07:40] <pitti> hey tfheen 
[07:41] <ajmitch> morning tfheen 
[07:42] <fabbione> hey tfheen 
[07:43] <tfheen> hiya Fabio; nice vacation?
[07:43] <fabbione> tfheen: it was ok overall, but as good as i expected
[07:43] <dfarning> good morning all,  I am working on my first spec.  Does anyone have moment to take a look at it to make sure I am on the right track
[07:44] <fabbione> i didn't get around to finish my MythTV box, but i guess i will survive
[07:44] <dfarning> https://blueprints.beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/derivativeteam
[07:44] <Hobbsee> heya tfheen!
[07:49] <dholbach> hey Tollef
[07:51] <tfheen> dfarning: sounds like it should be an informal spec at least.  The scope isn't well defined in the spec
[07:52] <LaserJock> dfarning: is there a mailing list for derivatives?
[07:53] <dfarning> tfheen, how would you define the scope more correctly
[07:53] <dfarning> LaserJock, i have submitted a request ticket
[07:53] <tfheen> dfarning: I'd probably move a bit of the bullet list from the summary to scope.  What is and what isn't covered by the spec?
[07:55] <dfarning> tfheen, ok so who and what is affect defined more completely
[07:55] <dfarning> does informal mean set is as drafting?
[07:57] <tfheen> no, informal means there is no implementation
[07:57] <tfheen> actually, sorry, I meant Informational, not informal. :-)
[07:58] <dfarning> ok I remember reading about that
[07:58] <dfarning> thanks
[07:58] <dfarning> I'll go work on it some more
[08:10] <fabbione> woooo go seb! go dani! more crack more crack :)
[08:24] <Lure> any archive-admin around? Somebody needs to get libkexiv2* through binary new in order to get digikam 0.9.1 built - would be great to have this for beta
[08:28] <tfheen> Lure: looking
[08:46] <carlos> pitti: hi
[08:46] <pitti> hey carlos
[08:46] <carlos> pitti: I had to delay again the time when lang packs are generated
[08:46] <carlos> the process will start in 5 minutes (I think the delay was of two hours)
[08:47] <pitti> carlos: ok, no problem
[08:47] <pitti> carlos: how does feisty look?
[08:47] <carlos> pitti: also, Feisty is more or less full imported now
[08:47] <pitti> yay!
[08:47] <carlos> pitti: there are some remaining things, but need manual approval, so I think we should start preparing base lang packs
[08:47] <carlos> pitti: you have already the ones from yesterday
[08:48] <carlos> if you want to start playing with them, otherwise, in a couple of hours, you should have the new ones for toay
[08:48] <carlos> today
[08:48] <pitti> ok, couple of hours is alright, I need to do some CD testing right now
[08:48] <carlos> ok
[08:48] <carlos> pitti: same url schema as before
[08:48] <carlos> http://people.ubuntu.com/~carlos/language-packs/feisty/
[08:49] <carlos> once we do the release, it will become http://people.ubuntu.com/~carlos/language-packs/feisty-updates
[09:22] <mdke> are people working on the network-manager problem, bug 82335? it has a massive number of duplicates, looks difficult to fix, and hasn't been assigned to anyone yet.
[09:22] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 82335 in network-manager "network-manager should not set offline mode when it manages no device" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/82335
[09:23] <pitti> mvo_: moin; can I bother you with upgrade-manager -d not working?
[09:23] <Mithrandir> mdke: I don't know of anybody working on it, but I think it should be relativetly easy to solve.
[09:24] <mdke> Mithrandir: removing network manager? :)
[09:24] <Fujitsu> mdke: That's what everybody seems to suggest.
[09:24] <Fujitsu> Feisty simply can't be released with that bug...
[09:25] <mdke> agreed
[09:25] <Lure> Mithrandir: it is not that simple: n-m does not know if there are other interfaces at all, therefore it consideres it has all
[09:25] <Fujitsu> (it would be best if NM had proper static IP support, but I don't think that's going to happen)
[09:25] <Lure> Mithrandir: backend would need to be changed to show all interfaces (also static) and just do not manage them
[09:25] <Mithrandir> Fujitsu: not happening for feisty, at least.
[09:25] <mdke> Fujitsu: it's not just the static ip support, but also the failure to detect perfectly normal dhcp configured interfaces
[09:25] <Mithrandir> Lure: no, it wouldn't.
[09:26] <Lure> Mithrandir: suse and fedora are presumably doing this proprely
[09:26] <Fujitsu> mdke: True... It needs to be able to detect it better.
[09:26] <Lure> Mithrandir: why not?
[09:30] <mvo_> pitti: what exactly is not working?
[09:31] <pitti> mvo_: gpg verification fails
[09:31] <pitti> it's not very verbose unfortunately
[09:31] <pitti> and the /tmp/tmpUU.. doesn't exist any more
[09:31] <mvo_> pitti: please update update-manager to the version in -proposed, its a known (and fixed) bug that waits for sru-verification
[09:32] <mvo_> pitti: I will nag brian about it again so that it can move to -updates ASAP
[09:32] <pitti> mvo_: ah, will try that
[09:33] <pitti> mvo_: btw, I did apt-cdrom -m add before that to use the alternate CD as source; could this be the reason?
[09:33] <mdke> Mithrandir: so will you maybe give someone a poke to look at that bug?
[09:33] <Mithrandir> mdke: yes
[09:34] <mdke> thanks a lot
[09:34] <pitti> mvo_: (still no 'upgrade from CD' option in the u-n CD insertion dialog)
[09:34] <mvo_> pitti: no. but if you have the altenravtive cd, please try sudo sh /cdrom/cdromupgrade"
[09:34] <pitti> mvo_: ah, will do that
[09:34] <mvo_> pitti: oh, no option from the dialog?
[09:34] <mvo_> pitti: could you please also install the u-n from -proposed?
[09:35] <pitti> mvo_: well, just 'open package manager' and another one (unrelated)
[09:35] <pitti> mvo_: yup
[09:35] <mvo_> pitti: thanks
[09:35] <mvo_> pitti: I check the status of the two bugs now
[09:44] <pitti> mvo_: with -proposed, the gpg error doesn't happen
[09:44] <mvo_> pitti: great, thanks
[09:44] <pitti> mvo_: so I'll do the test with both variants now ('apt-cdrom add, update-manager -d' and '/cdrom/upgrade')
[09:45] <Fujitsu> Can somebody look at bug #91012? There are a heap of duplicates, and it only appeared 36 hours ago.
[09:45] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 91012 in hal "[apport]  hal-device-manager crashed with ImportError in <module>() App crashed running "Hardware Information"" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/91012
[09:45] <mvo_> pitti: great, thanks. and please try also if update-notifier gives you a correct dialog with the version from -proposed
[09:46] <pitti> mvo_: 'correct dialog'?
[09:48] <mvo_> pitti:sorry. u-n should present a "upgrade from this volume" dialog when a upgradable CD is inserted. I will search for the bugnumber for this now
[09:50] <pitti> mvo_: ah, when running the script on the CD?
[09:50] <pitti> mvo_: I'm currently testing the u-m -d approach
[10:14] <giftnudel> I know I keep nagging, but a german translator please fix bug 60527 , since xchat-gnome is annoying with this bug
[10:14] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 60527 in language-pack-gnome-de "xchat-gnome /me misbehaviour" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/60527
[10:14] <giftnudel> there are still strings wrong in both edgy and feisty
[10:16] <cassidy> giftnudel: these translations bug should be fixed with last upstream release. The problem is Ubuntu using its own translations...
[10:16] <giftnudel> yes, the upstream ones are correct
[10:34] <markvandenborre> whom should I talk to on ubuntu installer iso localisation?
[10:35] <markvandenborre> any ideas, ladies and gentlemen?
[10:36] <Treenaks> markvandenborre: just wait until people wake up ;)
[10:36] <markvandenborre> Treenaks, grapjas!
[10:37] <markvandenborre> happy to see you out here, long time no see
[10:37] <Treenaks> I've been here for ages ;)
[10:38] <Fujitsu> Treenaks: Ages? I'd say ever.
[10:38] <Treenaks> Fujitsu: something like that :)
[10:39] <markvandenborre> let me clarify my question, just to make sure that I'm in the right channel...
[10:40] <markvandenborre> I'd like to see auto generated iso's for my combination of language and region
[10:40] <markvandenborre> (and for others obviously)
[10:42] <markvandenborre> so an iso with a sensible default i18n, l10n, dictionaries, keyboard layout and if possible location specific packages (electronic id card reader for example for Belgium)
[10:42] <Mithrandir> markvandenborre: we don't have the manpower to QA that well.
[10:43] <markvandenborre> Mithrandir, perfectly sensible answer
[10:43] <markvandenborre> is there a way locoteams could help with the QA process?
[10:43] <markvandenborre> so as to lower the QA load?
[10:43] <dfarning> markvandenborre, I am getting together a new team to work on just such issues
[10:43] <Mithrandir> it would also require a massive increase in the storage space, etc on the ISO building machine.
[10:44] <Mithrandir> I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just pointing out a couple of problems which would need to be solved.
[10:44] <markvandenborre> ok...
[10:44] <dfarning> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DerivativeTeam
[10:45] <Mithrandir> building an ISO takes about one hour,  a bit.
[10:45] <dfarning> There are several loco team working on localized distros
[10:46] <markvandenborre> Mithrandir, in our case, I'm just trying to do some research to avoid duplication of work
[10:47] <markvandenborre> we want a localised iso anyway for our locoteam
[10:47] <markvandenborre> and there seem to be many more interested...
[10:48] <dfarning> markvandenborre, what langugage
[10:48] <markvandenborre> nl_be
[10:49] <dfarning> can you send me an email at dfarning@gmail.com so I can follow up with you
[10:49] <markvandenborre> will do
[10:49] <dfarning> thanks
[10:49] <dfarning> I think we have about 20 different localization distos out there right now
[10:50] <markvandenborre> Mithrandir, can I help you convince decision makers to give this some priority by gathering support from locoteams around it?
[10:52] <markvandenborre> this would prove demand, and guarantee you at least somewhat technically knowledgeable qa testers
[10:53] <dfarning> markvandenborre, I doubt that Ubuntu will be able build and provide the localized distro for you any time soon
[10:53] <Treenaks> I think providing a simple way to create the image(s) yourself would help
[10:54] <Treenaks> 'make-live-image.sh nl_NL'
[10:54] <markvandenborre> oh yes, I really don't need much hand holding
[10:54] <Treenaks> markvandenborre: (or nl_BE)
[10:54] <markvandenborre> and I'm not alone in this
[10:54] <Mithrandir> markvandenborre: if we have people who have shown a commitment to test the regular ISOs for a while expressing interest in testing custom ISOs, that would make it more likely to happen.
[10:55] <dfarning> Treenaks, I am putting together some derivative spec so we can put together the tools to easily develop such a localization
[10:55] <markvandenborre> ok
[10:56] <markvandenborre> Mithrandir, dfarning thx for your help
[10:57] <markvandenborre> will try to find some people to rally around this
[11:17] <pitti> mvo_: yay, u-manager dist-upgrade worked flawlessly
[11:18] <pitti> mvo_: do I need edgy-proposed for the cdrom script as well?
[11:21] <mvo_> pitti: no, that should work 
[11:21] <mvo_> pitti: thanks for testing!
[11:23] <Mithrandir> Riddell: can you please take a look at the kdegames ftbfs?
[11:25] <Mithrandir> Riddell: same for kde-systemsettings
[11:29] <Riddell> Mithrandir: ok
[11:36] <cjwatson> markvandenborre: my standpoint has definitely always been that I'm happy to help people build the customised images more easily (e.g. the various documents on help.ubuntu.com/community/) but I don't think the Ubuntu CD image / release teams should ever get into doing it ourselve
[11:36] <cjwatson> s
[11:40] <pitti> carlos: so if I start the langpack cronjob at 0900 rookery time, will that be enough?
[11:43] <carlos> pitti: for Breezy, Edgy and Dapper, yes
[11:44] <carlos> pitti: Feisty is a full export and is not ready until 16:00
[11:44] <carlos> hmm wait
[11:44] <carlos> something is not correct here...
[11:46] <carlos> pitti: For Feisty, I will tell you once it finish for today
[11:46] <pitti> carlos: alright
[11:46] <pitti> carlos: I build test packs right now, btw, just to see if there are any major problems
[11:46] <carlos> pitti: it used to finish around 12:00, but for some reason, this weekend it took around 4 hours more
[11:47] <carlos> pitti: ok
[11:47] <markvandenborre> cjwatson, thx for your information
[11:48] <mjg59> cjwatson: Does policy require that packages with an original-maintainer field have an @ubuntu.com address in maintainers?
[11:49] <cjwatson> mjg59: no
[11:49] <cjwatson> implementation might, which I would consider a bug
[11:49] <Fujitsu> mjg59: Policy doesn't, but builds will fail otherwise.
[11:49] <cjwatson> Fujitsu: well, that should be fixed. it's wrong.
[11:49] <Fujitsu> (pkgmaintainermangler fails)
[11:49] <Fujitsu> cjwatson: There's a bug about it.
[11:49] <Fujitsu> It's because it tries to add Original-Maintainer, but it already exists.
[11:50] <mjg59> Ok. My acpid upload failed because of that.
[11:51] <mjg59> What's the appropriate thing to do? Wait for it to be fixed and then ask for the package to be rebuilt?
[11:52] <Fujitsu> pitti's on that bug, I believe... What you do depends on when it's likely to be fixed, I guess.
[11:52] <Mithrandir> mjg59: urgh, sorry about giving you extra mail by giving it back again.
[11:52] <Fujitsu> It is a one-character change.
[11:53] <mjg59> Fujitsu: Got a number?
[11:53] <Fujitsu> Looking.
[11:53] <mjg59> Thanks
[11:53] <Fujitsu> Bug #91086
[11:53] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 91086 in pkgbinarymangler "binary-mangler chokes on non-Ubuntu email addresses that contain a reference (string-wise) to MOTU" [Wishlist,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/91086
[11:53] <Fujitsu> The description isn't particularly true.
[11:54] <Fujitsu> Sorry, summary.
[11:54] <mjg59> Wishlist? Hm.
[11:54] <Fujitsu> It's easy to work around.
[11:54] <mjg59> Not relaly
[11:54] <Fujitsu> You just need to use a whitelisted address.
[11:55] <Fujitsu> (or convince pitti that a one-character change is worth it)
[11:55] <cjwatson> mjg59: you could probably just fix pkgmaintainermangler yourself
[11:55] <mjg59> Yeah
[11:55] <pitti> erm, what's up?
[11:55] <cjwatson> might need to prod folks to upgrade the buildd chroots - I forget
[11:56] <mjg59> I'm nervous about poking that sort of infrastructure, though :)
[11:56] <pitti> mjg59: I recently made it accept @kubuntu.org addresses, I can easily extend that
[11:56] <cjwatson> pitti: why does there need to be a whitelist in the first place?
[11:56] <pitti> ah, /me looks at that bug
[11:56] <mjg59> pitti: Why not just make it accept any address if there's an original-maintainer field?
[11:56] <Fujitsu> pitti: Why not just make it not kill the build when Original-Maintainer already exists?
[11:56] <cjwatson> pitti: Maintainer: <anything> Original-Maintainer: <anything> should never error
[11:56] <markvandenborre> cjwatson, regarding localised iso's you said: my standpoint has definitely always been that I'm happy to help people build the customised images more easily (e.g. the various documents on help.ubuntu.com/community/) but I don't think the Ubuntu CD image / release teams should ever get into doing it ourselves
[11:56] <pitti> I don't know, infinity might have had his reasons
[11:56] <Fujitsu> (that is, change `exit 2;' to `exit 0;' on line 63 or similar.
[11:57] <pitti> cjwatson: it doesn't, it chokes on non-Ubuntuish maintainer fields, like MOTU Media Team <motumedia@tauware.de>
[11:57] <markvandenborre> I wanted to make clear that I'm not talking so much about custom packages and stuff, rather about i18n, l10n and stuff...
[11:58] <Fujitsu> pitti: It only chokes if both Original-Maintainer and a non-Ubuntu maintainer address are present.
[11:58] <pitti> Fujitsu, cjwatson, mjg59: yup, it seems that it's time to remove this check, I'll look into it
[11:58] <markvandenborre> I'm curious about where you draw the line
[11:58] <cjwatson> pitti: right, that's a bug and should be fixed
[11:58] <Fujitsu> Thanks pitti, it's pretty trivial.
[11:58] <mjg59> pitti: Thanks
[11:58] <cjwatson> markvandenborre: yeah, that's customisation. We can't afford combinatorial explosion on our own infrastructure; this is exactly the sort of thing where others should pitch in to build the customised images
[11:59] <markvandenborre> but you would be able to, say, supply a dead easy customisation script and stuff?
[11:59] <cjwatson> markvandenborre: I've never had time to write one myself, but I believe there are such scripts out there, or at least the beginnings of them
[11:59] <markvandenborre> like Treenaks joked : sh customise_cd.sh -l nl_be or whatever?
[12:01] <markvandenborre> cjwatson, sorry if I'm taking too much of your time here, just trying to look at the limits of what Canonical people could be expected to be able to contribute to
[12:01] <cjwatson> markvandenborre: scripting and code fixes and stuff are reasonable enough, but in this case IIRC somebody else has already taken care of much of the scripting
[12:01] <markvandenborre> would further development of clean high quality customisation code be an option?
[12:02] <markvandenborre> ok, thx, that answered my question before I even asked it ;)
[12:02] <cjwatson> markvandenborre: it would certainly be an option, although it always works better when the people who actually have the greatest need for doing it put something together that works for them ...
[12:03] <cjwatson> I'd have no objection in principle to Canonical developers doing the sort of work you mention, but it would have to wait its turn behind other priorities so I'm just warning you that it might arrive later than you'd otherwise like. :-)
[12:04] <markvandenborre> heh, thx, that's a very clear answer
[12:04] <markvandenborre> so if I summarise you correctly, you say: just start fiddling with what's out there, and gather some interest behind it
[12:05] <markvandenborre> and if you manage to do that, that will raise priority for us, but don't expect us to ever run an entire customised build infrastructure
[12:07] <markvandenborre> cjwatson, except for Mithrandir and this dfarning guy, is there anyone in particular that should be kept into the loop on this?
[12:08] <cjwatson> markvandenborre: I think that's a reasonable summary, yes. In general there should be few things (core infrastructure, basically) where Canonical participation is *required*, although there may be many situations where it's useful or the quickest way to get the job done
[12:09] <markvandenborre> ok, perfect, we know where to start now
[12:09] <markvandenborre> thx
[12:09] <cjwatson> markvandenborre: me, and possibly jono in his capacity of locoteams coordination
[12:09] <markvandenborre> yes, of course...
[12:09] <markvandenborre> I wouldn't forget jono and you
[12:09] <markvandenborre> thx for your time
[12:10] <pitti> Fujitsu, mjg59: pkgbinarymangler fix uploaded
[12:11] <Fujitsu> pitti: Will the buildds automatically update when it makes its way into the archives?
[12:11] <StevenK> They won't, if I recall what infinity said previously.
[12:12] <pitti> Fujitsu: yes, they will
[12:12] <pitti> StevenK: Soyuz' do, katie's dont
[12:12] <pitti> Fujitsu: so this can be given-back as soon as archive.u.c has it
[12:13] <Fujitsu> Isn't katie the autosyncer?
[12:13] <Mithrandir> no
[12:13] <cjwatson> Fujitsu: katie => old archive management software
[12:13] <pitti> Fujitsu: sorry, katie is the old upload and archive mainteance software
[12:13] <Fujitsu> Wasn't that dak?
[12:13] <Fujitsu> OK....
[12:13] <pitti> Fujitsu: the one Debian uses
[12:13] <Mithrandir> katie is the old name for dak, which is the archive management software used in Debian and which we used.
[12:13] <pitti> Fujitsu: right, it's dak
[12:14] <Fujitsu> And I suppose that still manages security.
[12:14] <pitti> right
[12:30] <cjwatson> Mithrandir: FYI I've started moving some bits and pieces from people.u.c/~cjwatson to ~ubuntu-archive
[12:30] <cjwatson> I've left redirects in place
[12:31] <Mithrandir> cjwatson: thanks; I was going to gently prod you about it sometime.
[12:33] <mjg59> pitti: Thank you!
[12:59] <pitti> fabbione: CLK_TCK does not seem to be exported by linux-libc-dev any more; any idea what replaced it?
[12:59] <fabbione> pitti: oh yeah that's old news.. i don't remember....
[12:59] <Fujitsu> cjwatson: CLOCKS_PER_SEC
[12:59] <Fujitsu> Oops.
[12:59] <Fujitsu> pitti: CLOCKS_PER_SEC
[12:59] <Fujitsu> Sorry cjwatson.
[12:59] <pitti> Fujitsu: already tried that, doesn't work either
[01:00] <Fujitsu> How strange.
[01:00] <pitti> it's in time.h's includes, but it does not get exposed for some reason
[01:04] <Fujitsu> pitti: I just built something that uses CLOCKS_PER_SEC fine.
[01:05] <Keybuk> pitti: bet you've got -ansi or -pedantic in your CFLAGS?
[01:05] <pitti> gcc -m32 -mregparm=3 -DREGPARM=3 -D__COM32__ -W -Wall -march=i386 -Os -fomit-frame-pointer -fno-stack-protector
[01:05] <pitti> not that I can see
[01:06] <Keybuk> pitti: is sys/time.h included or time.h?
[01:06] <pitti> Keybuk: time.h and sys/times.h
[01:07] <pitti> but adding sys/time.h doesn't help either
[01:07] <jdub> it's impossible to sleep/resume a machine running the nvidia proprietary driver, right?
[01:08] <_ion> pitti: Btw, have you had time to review my changes to restricted-manager yet?
[01:08] <pitti> _ion: not yet, sorry
[01:08] <_ion> pitti: No hurry :-)
[01:09] <Keybuk> pitti: hmm, I can't replicate it -- I get a __stack_chk_fail error instead
[01:09] <pitti> Keybuk: right, I already fixed those
[01:09] <Keybuk> pitti: which is the file that's failing for you?
[01:09] <pitti> but since a trivial program with just #include <time.h> works, it must be somehting in syslinux itself
[01:10] <pitti> Keybuk: com32/libutil/get_key.c
[01:11] <Keybuk> pitti: if I change CLK_TCK to CLOCKS_PER_SEC, it's fine
[01:12] <pitti> Keybuk: hm, not here; maybe it's different on amd64?
[01:12] <pitti> get_key.c: In function get_key:
[01:12] <pitti> get_key.c:140: error: CLOCKS_PER_SEC undeclared (first use in this function)
[01:12] <pitti> get_key.c:140: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once
[01:12] <Keybuk> that's odd; you're compiling on amd64 for i386 ?
[01:12] <pitti> that's what I get
[01:12] <Keybuk> or on amd64 for amd64?
[01:12] <pitti> Keybuk: amd64
[01:22] <pitti> Keybuk: argh, there is an empty time.h in com32/include; I guess it fell over that one
[01:22] <Keybuk> could be yeah
[01:24] <Keybuk> ah yes
[01:24] <Keybuk> the build line is totally different
[01:25] <cjwatson> hmm, public_html/germinate-output/ is ever so slightly bigger than I thought
[01:27] <Keybuk> Keybuk: making libutil_lnx.a it just does -I./include, but libutil_com.a it does -I../include as well
[01:27] <Keybuk> s/Keybuk/pitti/
[01:28] <pitti> right, and this makes sense if using the com32 includes for _com
[01:28] <pitti> but the empty time.h there doesn't
[01:28] <Keybuk> indeed
[01:28] <Keybuk> that'd be included instead of the one in /usr/include
[01:41] <tkamppeter> I need some help concerning the Debian packaging system.
[01:41] <pitti> tkamppeter: just ask
[01:42] <tkamppeter> I have a file in /etc and I want that it is not marked as config file. See bug 36532 and bug 90988.
[01:42] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 36532 in gs-esp ""Unsupported format" when trying to print" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/36532
[01:42] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 90988 in cupsys "printing any file give "Unsupported format 'the/format'" (dup-of: 36532)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/90988
[01:42] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 36532 in gs-esp ""Unsupported format" when trying to print" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/36532
[01:43] <pitti> tkamppeter: you want to create a new config file?
[01:43] <apokryphos> Seveas: problem with the ubugtu timeout?
[01:43] <pitti> tkamppeter: or convert an already existing conffile to a config file?
[01:44] <elkbuntu> apokryphos, no... first message had 2 bug numbers, second bug title had a dupe number
[01:44] <tkamppeter> No, gs-esp has a file /etc/cups/pstoraster.convs This file shouldNOT be considered as a config file.
[01:44] <pitti> Mithrandir: for the record, I did my amd64 alternate and desktop tests (including autoresize this time), I didn't see anything that hasn't been reported before
[01:44] <cjwatson> tkamppeter: if it's shipped in the deb, it must be a conffile. If you don't want it to be, you should move it somewhere other than /etc
[01:45] <pitti> Mithrandir: edgy upgrades work fine with the /cdrom/upgrade script, but fail with edgy's update-manager; using the one from edgy-proposed works fine
[01:45] <apokryphos> elkbuntu: yeah, I would've thought the timeout wouldn't (or probably, shouldn't) permit that though; doesn't matter much though I guess.
[01:45] <tkamppeter> So should I make the postinst generate it then
[01:45] <pitti> tkamppeter: you usually ship a template in /usr/share or generate it on the fly in postinst
[01:45] <pitti> tkamppeter: but NB that you must gracefully handle and respect already existing files on upgrades
[01:46] <pitti> tkamppeter: 'shouldNOT be considered as a config file' -> you mean conffile here, right?
[01:46] <pitti> tkamppeter: if you really mean 'config file', then the file should be in /var/
[01:47] <tkamppeter> Yes, I mean a conffile.
[01:47] <cjwatson> for files in /etc whose format changes gradually over time, it's generally expected that either (a) it's a conffile so the user gets prompted about the changes or (b) the maintainer scripts take care to upgrade the contents of the file
[01:47] <tkamppeter> /etc/cups/pstoraster.convs tells CUPS that there is the pstoraster fileter and how to use it.
[01:47] <pitti> tkamppeter: since this already is a conffile, you must not touch it on upgrades
[01:48] <pitti> tkamppeter: why do you want to change this, btw?
[01:48] <pitti> tkamppeter: it's usually much easier to fix conffiles with package uploads than fixing config files
[01:48] <tkamppeter> pitti, but this file is not supposed to be modified by the user. So the user got a stone-old version yeasr ago and it will never get updated.
[01:49] <cjwatson> tkamppeter: incorrect: conffiles get automatically changed unless the user has changed them; otherwise the user will be prompted
[01:49] <pitti> tkamppeter: your answer has several wrong concepts
[01:49] <pitti> tkamppeter: everything in /etc can be modified by users
[01:49] <cjwatson> (assuming there's a controlling terminal)
[01:49] <pitti> tkamppeter: and "config files" will never be automatically updated; conffiles will
[01:49] <pitti> tkamppeter: that's why I said that conffiles are usually what you want
[01:51] <tkamppeter> So then how to fix bug 90988? The problem here is that the user got a file /etc/cups/pstoraster.convs from an old Ubuntu version and with the time the file was changed in the Ubuntu package gs-esp. Updates of gs-esp do not replace the file.
[01:51] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 90988 in cupsys "printing any file give "Unsupported format 'the/format'" (dup-of: 36532)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/90988
[01:51] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 36532 in gs-esp ""Unsupported format" when trying to print" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/36532
[01:51] <cjwatson> tkamppeter: one mistake that may be responsible is that sometimes developers attempt to both ship a file as a conffile (i.e. in the .deb) AND edit it in maintainer scripts; this is wrong wrong wrong and can often lead to users getting erroneously prompted. If your package has 
[01:52] <pitti> cjwatson: your reply was clipped, btw
[01:52] <tkamppeter> Here it seems that the user never got prompted. He was always left with his old /etc/cups/pstoraster.convs file.
[01:52] <cjwatson> tkamppeter: ... ever edited that file in a maintainer script as well as shipping it in a conffile, then that could be responsible for problems
[01:52] <cjwatson> tkamppeter: that doesn't normally happen.
[01:53] <cjwatson> tkamppeter: but if the file got edited and they upgraded using something which didn't present them with the standard conffile prompt, then it's possible
[01:54] <tkamppeter> The current maintainer scripts do not touch pstoraster.convs.
[01:54] <cjwatson> tkamppeter: there are the following suitable responses: (a) the user edited the file by hand => reject bugs about it not getting upgraded, as it's their problem now; (b) a maintainer script edited the file by hand => fix the maintainer script not to do that; (c) the file should never ever ever be edited by users under any circumstances => move it out of /etc
[01:54] <hunger> why is all of the sudden linux-image-dbug-2.6.20-10-server going to get installed? I am using the -generic kernel...
[01:54] <cjwatson> but don't move files out of /etc just because users edited the file by hand and then the usual conffile resolution process did the wrong thing for them
[01:55] <StevenK> cjwatson: (d) use ucf, and open up a whole other raft of problems ?
[01:55] <tkamppeter> The file really should not be edited by hand, so (c) should be the right solution, but problem is that CUPS only searches /etc for such files.
[01:55] <pitti> tkamppeter: use a symlink then
[01:55] <cjwatson> CUPS is free software and therefore patchable ...
[01:55] <cjwatson> symlinks from /etc to elsewhere are a bit grotty
[01:56] <tkamppeter> So the bug is an upstream bug of CUPS, so I should file a feature request for a second search place.
[01:56] <cjwatson> that's the sort of thing it's perfectly reasonable to patch in locally
[01:57] <pitti> tkamppeter: shuold be easy to fix ourselves
[01:57] <pitti> tkamppeter: of course that patch should be proposed upstream as well
[01:58] <tkamppeter> If I use the symlink from /etc to my own place, what would an update do. Would it replace the existing file by a symlink?
[01:58] <pitti> tkamppeter: that would be wrong, so I hope dpkg won't
[01:59] <tkamppeter> pitti, how would you solve it? In the CUPS package by patching CUPS to provide a second search location for .types and .convs files not editable by the user?
[01:59] <pitti> tkamppeter: that definitively sounds cleaner
[02:00] <tkamppeter> pitti, or do you have an idea for a fix inside the gs-esp package?
[02:00] <cjwatson> fixes in one package aren't necessarily better than fixes in multiple packages
[02:00] <pitti> tkamppeter: the gs-esp package should then stop shipping the conffile, rm it in the postinst on upgrades, and generate it on the fly in /var in postinst
[02:01] <cjwatson> pitti: sounds like it should be in /usr, not /var? after all it's shipped at the moment, not generated dynamically
[02:01] <tkamppeter> pitt, but this will only work if CUPS is changed to search in /var.
[02:01] <pitti> cjwatson: I don't know
[02:01] <cjwatson> tkamppeter: correct. Fixing cups sounds useful
[02:01] <pitti> tkamppeter: will a static file version work for everyone, or does it need to be dynamically generated?
[02:02] <tkamppeter> I think, /usr is correct, as pstoraster.convs ships as a ready-made file with constant content.
[02:02] <pitti> tkamppeter: if the former, then it should be in some .d directory in /usr/share
[02:02] <tkamppeter> pitti, the static file works for everyone.
[02:02] <pitti> oh, not a .d directory
[02:02] <cjwatson> cups should look in /etc first though, just in case somebody does need to generate it by hand
[02:03] <cjwatson> and the thing that removes it in the postinst on upgrades should (a) only do so once, when upgrading to the version that removes the conffile (b) check against various known md5sums for the conffile before nuking itt
[02:03] <cjwatson> it
[02:04] <tkamppeter> So bug 90988 is a design bug of CUPS. So we must make CUPS searching in /etc plus the new directory and report an upstream bug (not a feature request) with this patch.
[02:05] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 90988 in cupsys "printing any file give "Unsupported format 'the/format'" (dup-of: 36532)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/90988
[02:05] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 36532 in gs-esp ""Unsupported format" when trying to print" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/36532
[02:06] <tkamppeter> Then we must search all Ubunru packages for /etc/cups/*.types and etc/cups/*.convs files and do the same fix on them as we do on gs-esp.
[02:07] <pitti> mjg59: hal FTBFSed on powerpc and sparc due to the new macbookpro patch; do you have a minute to take a look at it?
[02:09] <tkamppeter> pitti, this looks all like a higher-impact change. Should this be done for Feisty?
[02:10] <Riddell> mvo_: I've committed a fix to DistUpgradeViewKDE in update-manager, should it work if I just upload in the normal way?
[02:11] <pitti> tkamppeter: adding another search path to cupsys doesn't sound particularly scary to me
[02:14] <tkamppeter> So pitt, will you do it?
[02:14] <tkamppeter> s/pitt/pitti/
[02:15] <pitti> tkamppeter: I have some other high-urgency stuff on my plate, so I'd prefer not to
[02:16] <Mithrandir> pitti: ok, thanks.  We should make sure to releasenote that bit, then
[02:18] <pitti> seb128: http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/langpacks/daily/feisty/ !!
[02:18] <seb128> pitti: waouh ;)
[02:19] <pitti> seb128: I'll use tomorrow's rosetta tarball for beta; the current ones are just for testing and sorting out major issues with carlos today
[02:20] <seb128> k, I'll give them a try
[02:20] <ogra> pitti, how much is that in total ? 
[02:20] <pitti> ogra: how much?
[02:20] <ogra> i have pleanty of space on my add-on CD ...
[02:20] <tkamppeter> Mithrandir, I think this is the best way then, as this file is usually really not manually modified or removed by users, the problemn in the bug does not happen. So we should tell in the release notes that when the user gets this problem he should do
[02:20] <tkamppeter> dpkg -P --force-depends gs-esp
[02:20] <ogra> pitti, the total size of all of these langpacks
[02:21] <tkamppeter> apt-get install gs-esp
[02:21] <pitti> tkamppeter: I think Mithrandir alluded to the edgy->feisty upgrade test results
[02:21] <tkamppeter> and everything is reset to normal and the file will be regularly updated again.
[02:21] <pitti> ogra: I didn't do any statistics yet, they just finished building
[02:21] <ogra> ah
[02:22] <ogra> well, i have easily 200M spare space for them ;)
[02:22] <pitti> ogra: totally new words from you :-P
[02:22] <ogra> yeah, thanks to mvo and cjwatson i'm a happy man with two CDs now :)
[02:22] <pitti> where is the 'argh, donthavethetenbytesofadditionalspace' ogra?
[02:23] <tkamppeter> pitti, Mithrandir, sorry. But perhaps we should really add a realeas note for this one, too. WDYT?
[02:23] <pitti> tkamppeter: hm, if we would start documenting every bug in the release notes, they'd get pretty long
[02:23] <pitti> tkamppeter: this bug should be fixed IMHO, not documented
[02:24] <tkamppeter> So the best would be that I should change all the affected packages before beta?
[02:25] <pitti> tkamppeter: it's just adding that three-line patch to cupsys and doing some shuffle in the gs-esp packaging, right? or does it affect more stuff?
[02:25] <tkamppeter> I am not sure, there can be other packages with .types and .convs files.
[02:26] <pitti> well, we can fix the others as we get to know about them
[02:26] <pitti> as long as cups falls back to /usr/share/... only if the file isn't in /etc/cupsys/, that should DTRT
[02:27] <cjwatson> tkamppeter: instead of the rune above, 'rm -f /etc/cups/pstoraster.convs && apt-get -o DPkg::options::=--force-confmiss --reinstall install gs-esp' is better
[02:27] <cjwatson> (for the record)
[02:27] <cjwatson> (point being that there's no need to purge/reinstall just to get dpkg to replace a conffile
[02:27] <cjwatson> )
[02:29] <tkamppeter> pitti, which /usr/share should be searched by CUPS? Should we introduce a new /usr/share/cups/mime and propose this one also upstream?
[02:29] <Riddell> mvo_: I uploaded it, let's see what happens
[02:30] <pitti> tkamppeter: sure, sounds sane
[02:30] <^robertj> what magic-grub options need to be appended if you install grub by hand? ubiquity died at the end of the install when I ran it without with the migration assistant
[02:30] <^robertj> (c2d laptop on amd64)
[02:31] <^robertj> right now it hangs on or after USB
[02:31] <tkamppeter> Only thing is that I do not like very much to make a distribution package be very much different to upstream, but the architecture of CUPS seems to be far away from (Ubuntu, Debian, ...) Linux requirements.
[02:32] <^robertj> aha! it did timeout after a while
[02:33] <pitti> *shrug* cupsys' debian/patches is an utter mess with or without that new patch
[02:46] <mvo_> Riddell: uploading should work fine, thanks for the fix
[02:51] <seb128> tkamppeter: do you know what libcups function is called when adding a printer from gnome-cups-manager? Trying to figure what URI it tries to use for the smb one
[02:54] <bddebian> Heya
[03:11] <^robertj> are nightlies mirrored anywhere on I2?
[03:11] <crimsun> yes
[03:12] <^robertj> is there a mirror list for nightlies?
[03:17] <pitti> heno: re your mail about ISO testing: too late :) I already did everything and reported to Tollef
[03:22] <tkamppeter> seb128, unfortunately, I do not know how the gnome-cups-manager tells the CUPS daemon how to create a new queue. Does an strace of gnome-cups-manager nowhere show a string starting with "smb://" or the host name or IP of the SMB server or printer?
[03:23] <heno> pitti: yeah, I'm a bit behind the curve on this round :-/
[03:23] <heno> pitti: does that mean you'd like to do more images for beta? :)
[03:24] <pitti> heno: I can do OEM and expert on amd64/alternate as well if you want me, then I would have everything ever possible
[03:24] <pitti> heno: took me about 3 hours today; workload leveling appreciated :)
[03:25] <heno> pitti: as in more leveling would be appreciated or as in this was better than before?
[03:26] <heno> pitti: this is the sort of feedback I need to balance things out
[03:28] <pitti> heno: I meant that 3 hours seems quite appropriate to me, and I wouldn't mind doing OEM and expert in addition, but we shuold try to assign a roughly equal workload to folks; not just for boredom reasons, but also to minimize the critial path time
[03:29] <pitti> heno: however, the 3 hours was a bit with cheating: I didn't count the time when d-i/ubiquity grinded away on their own in vmware (I did something else in between)
[03:30] <pitti> so the actual 'start testing to mark everything as completely tested' turnaround is more like 7 hours
[03:30] <heno> pitti: agree. Workload can be difficult to judge though, and the time used may depend on people's hardware, download speed, etc. So I appreciate the feedback
[03:30] <pitti> right
[03:31] <pitti> heno: the two upgrade tests were the ones which took a very large chunk of it (1.5 hours for each of the two test)
[03:31] <pitti> and if I had done this on real hardware, it would have taken about 8 hours, I guess
[03:32] <heno> pitti: I can imagine. And thanks for doing those; I for one am not set up to do those
[03:32] <pitti> heno: oh, no problem
[03:32] <pitti> heno: I use the feisty alternate CD as an additional apt source, so it doesn't eat too much bandwith
[03:32] <pitti> width, even
[03:33] <heno> hm, ok cool
[03:33] <pitti> and I don't think that it is vital to do those upgrade tests on real hardware, vmware should do fine
[03:33] <heno> I still need to catch up with mvo on this topic
[03:34] <kwwii> dholbach: just pushed a new session splash
[03:34] <kwwii> pitti: busy, busy, busy
[03:34] <kwwii> ;-)
[03:34] <kwwii> pitti: and you?
[03:35] <pitti> likewise :)
[03:35] <dholbach> kwwii: ok
[03:38] <Mithrandir> seb128: did we end up with me taking the amd64 or i386 DVD?
[03:39] <pitti> enrico: oh, shall I actually report to bug reports for this informal round?
[03:39] <pitti> enrico: sorry, that wasn't for you
[03:39] <pitti> heno: oh, shall I actually report to bug reports for this informal round?
[03:39] <LeeJunFan> hrm, dbus in feisty doesn't play well with nfs booting.
[03:40] <heno> pitti: please do yes, we need to debug the tracking system too :)
[03:40] <pitti> alrighty
[03:45] <seb128> Mithrandir: amd64
[03:45] <Mithrandir> seb128: that's what I thougth too, thanks.
[03:46] <seb128> np
[03:47] <seb128> tkamppeter: the strace shows no URI starting with smb, let me look if there is the machine IP or name
[03:48] <cypherbios> mvo_: what is the syntax to show a link for the bug in launchpad inside a changelog file -- parsed by Update Manager? (i.e.: 'Closes LP#89733' automatically links to http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/89733)
[03:48] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 89733 in aptoncd ""Selecting packages" dialogue issues" [Low,Fix committed]  
[03:49] <mvo_> cypherbios: just LP#349234 should work
[03:49] <mvo_> cypherbios: it tries to be clever and detect debian bugs too
[03:49] <cypherbios> mvo_: great! thank you.
[03:50] <pitti> mvo_: which bug was the u-m gpg failure?
[03:51] <mvo_> pitti: #78673
[03:52] <pitti> mvo_: danke
[03:59] <tepsipakki> Mithrandir: how about that discover-data sync?
[04:02] <tepsipakki> Mithrandir: bug #90595
[04:02] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 90595 in discover-data "sync a new version from debian unstable" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/90595
[04:06] <mvo_> Riddell: could you please have a look at https://beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/update-manager/+bug/91072
[04:06] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 91072 in update-manager "Upgrade to Kubuntu 7.04 - Upgrade Tool Crashed" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  
[04:07] <Mithrandir> tepsipakki: looks good to me.
[04:08] <Mithrandir> tepsipakki: oh, and can you please get some sponsors and apply for -core-dev?  I'd like to sync as you, not as me. :-P
[04:11] <seb128> Mithrandir: he has already
[04:11] <Riddell> mvo_: that looks like a bug in the exception handler, presumably his extra sources.list lines caused the exception handler to be called
[04:12] <Mithrandir> seb128: ok.
[04:13] <seb128> Mithrandir: I mean, he's listed to ubuntu-dev, you can sync with his name
[04:13] <tepsipakki> Mithrandir: oh, maybe I should
[04:14] <tepsipakki> seb128: I haven't applied AFAIK ;)
[04:14] <seb128> hum
[04:15] <mvo_> Riddell: ok, but     KRun.runURL(KURL(url), "text/html") NameError: global name 'KRun' is not defined seems to be the error, no?
[04:15] <seb128> tepsipakki: you are to ubuntu-dev which is enough to use your name for a sync, it has to be approved though, right
[04:15] <Mithrandir> seb128: well, I don't sync into somewhere the person can't upload.
[04:15] <seb128> Mithrandir: sorry, ignore me, i got confused between ubuntu-core-dev and ubuntu-dev :p
[04:16] <mvo_> Riddell: #91104 seems to be releated
[04:17] <seb128> bug #91104
[04:17] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 91104 in update-manager "update" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/91104
[04:30] <Riddell> mvo_: yes, that part is my fault
[04:30] <mvo_> Riddell: np
[04:30] <Riddell> mvo_: I was just wondering what caused the exception handler to be run at all
[04:31] <mvo_> right
[04:43] <ogra> geser, did you plan to package the fuse update ? 
[04:43] <ogra> hooray
[04:44] <dholbach> ogra: new dia
[04:45] <ogra> dholbach, already downloaded, i'm just busy with ltsp atm
[04:45] <dholbach> ok
[04:45] <dholbach> cool
[04:45] <ogra> i guess gss and gpm are to come today or tomorrow as well ...
[04:46] <geser> ogra: I've packages ready at http://members.ping.de/~mb/fuse/ and bug #90919 got approved today
[04:46] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 90919 in fuse "[UVF exception]  Merge fuse 2.6.3-1 from Debian unstable" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/90919
[04:47] <ogra> yep, i saw tollefs comment ...
[04:47] <geser> should the changelog mention the uvf exception bug?
[04:48] <ogra> yes
[04:48] <geser> ok, then I'll add it now and prepare a new source package
[04:53] <geser> ogra: an updated diff.gz is now at http://members.ping.de/~mb/fuse/
[04:57] <Treenaks> bug 72079 -- I can send someone one device like that (to make driver-writing easier?)...
[04:57] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 72079 in linux-source-2.6.20 "Keys of USB "handset" not working" [Undecided,Needs info]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/72079
[04:58] <Treenaks> how/who should I contact? :)
[05:01] <mvo_> Riddell: #91295 looks like one for you as well :)
[05:05] <Riddell> mvo_: thanks
[05:51] <pitti> tepsipakki: is there a new xserver-xorg-input-evdev upstream version? the current one doesn't seem to work with the new xorg (http://librarian.launchpad.net/6752857/buildlog_ubuntu-feisty-sparc.xserver-xorg-input-evdev_1%3A1.1.2-1ubuntu3_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz)
[05:54] <seb128> pitti: 1.1.5 is the xorg 7.2 version
[05:54] <pitti> ah, so we should update this, too
[05:55] <seb128> looking
[05:55] <seb128> I think I looked at the update
[05:55] <seb128> and I'm wondering if 1.1.5 was not a merge from a new branch and we didn't update on purpose
[05:58] <seb128> pitti: hum, yeah, 1.1.5 has not been updated because there is many changes and it was not clear if that was really meant for xorg 7.2
[05:58] <seb128> we should rather try to grab a patch for it
[05:59] <maaks> hi
[06:01] <maaks> i'm registered on lauchpad and i needed some help
[06:01] <vcrobe> Hi people. I need some C programmer that can help me
[06:02] <pitti> vcrobe: #ubuntu, please
[06:02] <shawarma> Will doko be around today?
[06:03] <vcrobe> nobody there can answer my question
[06:03] <vcrobe> I've tried many days and nobody can help me
[06:04] <vcrobe> today some guy told me that maybe in this channel somebody can help me
[06:04] <shawarma> vcrobe: /msg me. Maybe I can point you in the right direction.
[06:04] <vcrobe> shawarma: thanx
[06:05] <kylem> shawarma, doko is off this week.
[06:06] <shawarma> kylem: Ok. Bad timing, if you ask me. :-) SoC is open of apps this week.  
[06:06] <shawarma> kylem: But thanks!
[06:07] <vcrobe> shawarma: I can't send you private messages because I'm not registered here :-(
[06:08] <shawarma> vcrobe: Either register or go to #shawarma :-)
[06:08] <jdong> shawarma: free food served?
[06:08] <vcrobe> I'll go to #shawarma ;-)
[06:08] <maaks> it is said that i'm not an active member of launchpad 
[06:09] <shawarma> jdong: Don't count on it, but you won't know if you don't go. ;-)
[06:09] <maaks> does it mean i cannot help for developpement ?
[06:10] <pitti> tepsipakki: filed as bug 91699, btw; there are other bugs against this package which seem to be due to this API change
[06:10] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 91699 in xserver-xorg-input-evdev "FTBFS with current xorg headers" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/91699
[06:11] <ogra> geser, uploaded
[06:12] <maaks> hello ?
[06:12] <pochu> maaks: you can help, sure
[06:13] <pochu> maaks: but better go to #ubuntu-motu, and read the topic ;)
[06:13] <cjwatson> shawarma: Keybuk is also one of our SoC administrators; shouldn't matter that one of our two is on holiday
[06:14] <maaks> pochu, ok thank you
[06:14] <shawarma> cjwatson: Not unless I've already been talking to one of them. :-) 
[06:15] <shawarma> cjwatson: But sure, I'll talk to Keybuk, if it's urgent.
[06:15] <cjwatson> in the absence of a contact mailing list, it seems like a good idea to copy both of them unless it's private
[06:17] <Keybuk> e-mails should be sent to ubuntu-soc-owner@lists.ubuntu.com
[06:19] <iwj> Yes, I KNOW I have a `.local' domain.  I had it as documented in RFCwhatever before Apple stole it dammit.
[06:19] <iwj> I don't use it for anything but I think I'll keep it because at least it suppresses crazy ad-hoc dns things.
[06:20] <_ion> The ad-hoc dns thing 
[06:20] <ogra> iwj, and dont forget, you keep something you can complain about if in bad mood ;)
[06:20] <iwj> ogra: ROTFL
[06:20] <iwj> Very good point :-).
[06:20] <ogra> erg
[06:21] <iwj> Boggle.
[06:35] <Mithrandir> iwj: have you tested your LVM/mdadm stuff on real hardware?  I'm unable to get it to boot properly on a feisty box here.
[06:37] <siretart> Mithrandir: try booting with 'break=mount', (re)run 'udevtrigger', wait 2 seks and press CTRL-D.
[06:37] <siretart> Mithrandir: this helps at least on my box
[06:37] <iwj> Mithrandir: Yes.
[06:37] <iwj> But I didn't have a RAID mirror.
[06:37] <Mithrandir> siretart: doesn't help because udevd isn't running.
[06:38] <iwj> Or at least, not root-on-raid.
[06:38] <iwj> I can see I'm going to have to make one.
[06:38] <Mithrandir> this is root-on-raid1 + lvm-on-raid1 (on the same physical disks, but different partition)
[06:38] <Mithrandir> iwj: something makes udevd blow up after init-premount, it seems, so no events get sent.
[06:38] <Mithrandir> and the md+lvm volume never gets started.
[06:39] <Mithrandir> unless I call local-top/mdadm by hand.
[06:39] <siretart> Mithrandir: the behavior on my box is that udevd gets started, but fires off only 1 of 4 raid volumes
[06:39] <iwj> udev _blows up_ ?
[06:39] <Mithrandir> iwj: as in, there is no udevd process when it falls over after trying to mount /
[06:39] <siretart> s/fires off/brings up/
[06:39] <iwj> Mithrandir: Freaky.
[06:40] <Mithrandir> I haven't strace-ed and friends yet.
[06:40] <maaks> Is there a ubuntu dev that can help me , i'd like to contribute 
[06:40] <Mithrandir> also, an upgrade calls update-initramfs just too many times.  I think it ran between ten and fifteen times on a one-month-old update.
[06:40] <Mithrandir> iwj: this is the xen kernels in the archive, but I doubt that makes a difference to regular kernels.
[06:41] <iwj> Mithrandir: update-initramfs> Yes, very true but not easy to fix.
[06:41] <iwj> My root-on-lvm setup is not in Xen.
[06:41] <pochu> heno: how went the iso testing this weekend? ;)
[06:42] <Mithrandir> iwj: I believe this setup should be fairly easy to replicate in qemu, though.
[06:42] <pitti> carlos: could future feisty tarball exports include the POT files?
[06:42] <heno> pochu: we are still testing. See: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Matrix
[06:42] <siretart> maaks: please /join #ubuntu-motu
[06:43] <pitti> carlos: I was asked to run some statistics on the gnome/kde languages, and I need the POT files for accurate numbers
[06:43] <iwj> Mithrandir: I don't mind doing it on real hardware, really.
[06:43] <Mithrandir> iwj: oh, sure.  I'd be fine with testing solutions, but some friends of mine are using the xen instances on the box, so I would prefer to not reboot too nilly-willy. :-)
[06:44] <iwj> Mmm.
[06:44] <iwj> I'll built a test setup tomorrow I think.  Debugging this at a distance isn't working.
[06:44] <iwj> s/built/build/
[06:55] <pitti> seb128: feisty langpacks look good for me so far, btw
[06:55] <seb128> pitti: I haven't tried yet, still busy with GNOME 2.18.0
[07:16] <geser> ogra: thanks for sponsoring
[07:21] <Lure> carlos: can you check bug 88376
[07:21] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 88376 in Baltix "Please backport wxmaxima and maxima from feisty" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/88376
[07:22] <Lure> carlos: sorry, bug  88367
[07:22] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 88367 in digikam "[Feisty]  Digikam is not translated in french" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/88367
[07:28] <ogra> geser, thanks for preparing :)
[07:34] <alex-weej> does LP have bug dependencies?
[07:34] <alex-weej> i can't seem to find an option for it
[07:35] <LaserJock> alex-weej: sounds like a question for #launchpad
[07:35] <cjwatson> alex-weej: no
[07:36] <alex-weej> cjwatson: i have reported a bug which is a symptom of another bug
[07:36] <alex-weej> rather than mark it as a duplicate
[07:36] <alex-weej> is there no better way to keep track of it?
[07:36] <cjwatson> nothing with metadata. Put a comment in both bugs explaining the situation.
[07:38] <alex-weej> cjwatson: done. thanks
[08:07] <cypherbios> Mithrandir: what exactly does the README.diskdefines in Ubuntu CDs?
[08:07] <ajmitch> morning
[08:24] <geser> keescook: bug #90913 got approved, you can upload
[08:24] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 90913 in gnupg2 "[UVF exception]  Merging gnupg2 2.0.3-1 from Debian unstable" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/90913
[08:24] <keescook> geser: ah, good.  thanks.
[08:30] <Mithrandir> cypherbios: unsure.
[08:31] <cypherbios> Mithrandir: do you think that could be an APT stuff?
[08:33] <kronoman> does Ubuntu has some tool like Norton Utilities ? because I was thinking about making one, but I don't want to duplicate effort
[08:33] <kronoman> some like a ncurses menu that calls fsck, badblocks, etc when needed
[08:34] <Mithrandir> kronoman: the alternate CD has a rescue mode
[08:35] <kronoman> ok, I'll check it
[08:51] <adamant1988> Hello all, I was curious when SELinux is planned to be included with Ubuntu?
[08:52] <ajmitch> when someone actually has time to work on it
[08:54] <ogra> well, its included since ages ... just not enabled :)
[08:57] <kronoman> mmm, I'm not sure this was what I was thinkin'
[08:58] <kronoman> I was more about a tool like norton utilities, for 'grandma' use i.e
[08:58] <kronoman> when your disk goes fsck, you just choose 'repair' instead of going to a console
[09:16] <Mithrandir> mdz: is there a particular reasoning for naming the ubuntu milestones ubuntu-$name rather than just $name ?
[09:16] <ogra> Mithrandir, derivatives ? 
[09:17] <ogra> {ed,k,x}ubuntu ?
[09:17] <Mithrandir> ogra: ttbomk, you don't have your own milestones?
[09:17] <Mithrandir> and full derivatives have their own namespace.
[09:22] <grndslm> just a thought, but would it be too much to ask for the installer to ask if the user's sure they don't want a separate /home partition??
[09:23] <Keybuk> why would you want a separate partition?
[09:23] <grndslm> i see users complain about not being able to reinstall easily....because they didn't even know that a separate /home dir was a good idea
[09:23] <Keybuk> why would they need to reinstall?
[09:23] <LaserJock> ?
[09:24] <grndslm> everybody needs a fresh install every once in a while
[09:24] <LaserJock> people reinstall like crazy :-)
[09:24] <grndslm> no joke
[09:24] <Keybuk> nobody should need a fresh install
[09:24] <ajmitch> probably because of various things like automatix or random crack they install
[09:24] <Keybuk> if there's a bug that causes that, we should fix that one
[09:24] <grndslm> Keybuk:  this guy's complaining in #ubuntu about not being able to upgrade from dapper to edgy
[09:24] <Keybuk> grndslm: has he filed bugs for the problem packages?
[09:24] <LaserJock> many people just get to a point where they just give up and reinstall
[09:25] <grndslm> Keybuk:  a bug is that the installer doesn't do "error checking" because most desktop users will want a /home dir, but some don't know it
[09:25] <xhaker> Keybuk, open source is about choice!
[09:25] <grndslm> because they're so overwhelmed...then once they get settled in and have 10gigs of data and no means of backup
[09:25] <Keybuk> grndslm: I would argue that is wrong; most users do not want a /home
[09:25] <grndslm> Keybuk:  he doesn't even know how to add repos to sources.list...
[09:25] <geser> ogra: Florent Mertens mailed me about his started merge of fuse 2.6.3. Based on his additional changes I've prepared a new debdiff (fixes bug #87767)
[09:25] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 87767 in fuse "Grep flags used in /etc/modoprobe.d/fuse do not work in initramfs" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/87767
[09:25] <grndslm> how would he know to track some bugs?
[09:26] <Keybuk> if a user doesn't know how to do difficult things, then they definitely don't want /home to be seperate
[09:26] <grndslm> bull junk
[09:26] <grndslm> give me a practical desktop use case where /home shouldn't be separate??
[09:26] <grndslm> i can't think of one
[09:26] <ogra> geser, ah, yes, i saw that one .... its a trivial fix 
[09:26] <Keybuk> an ordinary machine with a single desk
[09:26] <Mithrandir> grndslm: in most cases, I just make / the full disk.
[09:26] <Keybuk> uh, disk
[09:26] <geser> ogra: the debdiff is at http://members.ping.de/~mb/debdiffs/. There are also debdiffs to rebuild ltspfs, ntfs-3g and linux-ntfs
[09:27] <Keybuk> users will be filing bugs wondering why they can't upgrade (disk full)
[09:27] <grndslm> Keybuk:  i have a single disk on my laptop
[09:27] <Keybuk> or why they can't save more files (disk full)
[09:27] <Keybuk> despite having plenty of free space
[09:27] <grndslm> but i wouldn't be caught dead leaving /home on the root partition
[09:27] <Keybuk> /home on a different *disk* makes sense
[09:27] <geser> ogra: these 3 package need the FUSE_2.6 symbol but don't depend on libfuse2 >= 2.6
[09:27] <Keybuk> but a different partition?  no point except for "old school did it that way" ness
[09:28] <grndslm> Keybuk:  sure...but most people only use one disk
[09:28] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: makes sense on servers, but they're not the use case we're discussing here.
[09:28] <Keybuk> for a single-disk machine, I make one partition that fills the entire disk
[09:28] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: exactly
[09:28] <ogra> geser, why do you wipe the initscripts from the source ?
[09:28] <ogra> just keep them but dont install them 
[09:28] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: and even then, I'd argue that you're more likely to put /home on a different disk or even have it NFS mounted
[09:28] <grndslm> Keybuk:  i can't believe you're seriously trying to tell me that /home should be under the root dir
[09:28] <Keybuk> grndslm: yes
[09:28] <Keybuk> I am seriously telling you that
[09:28] <Lure> Keybuk: it makes sense if you have your laptop disk with dual boot (edgy + feisty) with shared /home
[09:28] <geser> ogra: ok, will update the debdiff
[09:28] <Keybuk> and I am arguing that doing otherwise has no practical benefits
[09:29] <grndslm> to ask a question
[09:29] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: I tend to RAID + LVM/EVMS stuff on servers because I might not know what needs I'll have in the future.
[09:29] <Lure> Keybuk: but that is far from common case
[09:29] <Keybuk> Lure: no reason to do that; use chroots
[09:29] <grndslm> has no practical benefit
[09:29] <grndslm> i just gave you one example
[09:29] <Keybuk> grndslm: you haven't given a useful example
[09:29] <Keybuk> "what if they fail to upgrade" -- solution = fix that issue
[09:29] <grndslm> do you ever look at #ubuntu?
[09:29] <Keybuk> yes, frequently
[09:29] <grndslm> everyday i see people who can't upgrade from dapper to edgy easily for one reason or another
[09:30] <grndslm> and when i tell them to just use the cd
[09:30] <grndslm> they stare at me like this o_O
[09:30] <Keybuk> then we should pay more attention to fixing upgrade issues
[09:30] <Keybuk> which we have been doing
[09:30] <grndslm> Keybuk:  or just ask one simple question
[09:30] <grndslm> take your pick
[09:30] <Keybuk> but your question doesn't solve the problem
[09:30] <Keybuk> *AND* is utterly meaningless to the kind of user you're giving as an example
[09:30] <grndslm> ok...it's not like there couldn't be an explanation
[09:30] <grndslm> before the question
[09:30] <Keybuk> Let me translate "Place /home on a separate partition?" into ordinary user speak for you
[09:31] <Keybuk> "Place blah on wibble snarf?"
[09:31] <ogra> Keybuk, nope
[09:31] <Keybuk> users never read explanations before the checkbox/input box
[09:31] <ogra> Keybuk, its talking about moving houses ...
[09:31] <ogra> for sure !!
[09:31] <grndslm> such as...if you are a desktop user...it's usually a good idea to but your /home directory on a separate partition, would you like to take more time and think about this or are you sure you know what you're doing???
[09:31] <grndslm> something like that
[09:31] <Keybuk> ogra: lol, I could just see that support request -- "Ubuntu wants me to move home!"
[09:31] <ogra> yeah
[09:31] <Keybuk> grndslm: but it's not a good idea
[09:31] <grndslm> design is a great idea
[09:32] <Keybuk> it doesn't help you at all
[09:32] <grndslm> how not
[09:32] <mjg59> The problem is "Users find it difficult to upgrade", not "/home is not on a separate partition"
[09:32] <grndslm> i wouldn't have to explain to dumbasses on a daily basis why their /home should be separate
[09:32] <Keybuk> you only do it because somewhere along the line, someone realised it was possible to split the UNIX filesytem across multiple disks
[09:32] <Mithrandir> grndslm: but it shouldn't!
[09:32] <Keybuk> and therefore everyone decided to do this
[09:33] <kronoman> because is a good idea ;)
[09:33] <Keybuk> and where they had a single disk, they split that into miniature partitions *just so they could do this*
[09:33] <Keybuk> and someone noticed this allows you to wipe your install and start again
[09:33] <Keybuk> a convenient bypass to tricky upgrades
[09:33] <geser> ogra: a fixed debdiff it at the mentioned url
[09:33] <ogra> btw we dont have dumbasses in ubuntu ... only some underskilled users :)
[09:33] <Keybuk> this isn't a fix for tricky upgrades, it's ignoring the problem
[09:33] <Keybuk> we should spend our time *fixing the upgrade problem*
[09:33] <grndslm> Keybuk:  a convenient bypass to tricky upgrades is right
[09:33] <Mithrandir> it also made sense back in the days when your file system blew up every so often so you wanted to limit the damage, but file systems have gotten way more robust over time.
[09:33] <ogra> geser, ta
[09:33] <grndslm> that's what i'm looking for...to educate newbies about this convenient bypass
[09:34] <Keybuk> I would rather we spent development time removing the need for the bypass in the first place
[09:34] <grndslm> Keybuk:  you never want a fresh start?
[09:34] <Mithrandir> grndslm: the convenient bypass is "take a backup and restore that".  People shouldn't be running without backups, and certainly not upgrading without backups.
[09:34] <ogra> grndslm, but you just fiddle around with the symptom instead of curing the cause
[09:34] <grndslm> ogra:  so do most of the people who actually use ubuntu
[09:35] <grndslm> ubuntu isn't just for devs anymore...it's for HUMANS!
[09:35] <LaserJock> grndslm: we should have backup utilities (hubackup?) for reinstallations
[09:35] <mjg59> I think this conversation has gone beyond the point where anything of any use is going to be gained from it
[09:35] <Keybuk> mjg59: agreed
[09:35] <grndslm> LaserJock:  most people don't have any other tape or disc to backup to!
[09:35] <kronoman> normal people don't do backups
[09:35] <kronoman> is reality 
[09:35] <grndslm> exactly
[09:36] <grndslm> which is why education about separate /home directory should be a no-brainer
[09:36] <mjg59> grndslm: kronoman: Please note my previous statement
[09:36] <LaserJock> but that's maybe what they should be doing
[09:36] <kronoman> they just want to turn on the computer, solve their problems and thats all
[09:36] <kronoman> mjg59: right
[09:36] <ogra> mjg59, whle i have you here :) any idea for bug 81227 ?
[09:36] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 81227 in hal "Logout screen appears twice [Feisty] " [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/81227
[09:36] <mjg59> ogra: Nope
[09:36] <ogra> mjg59, sad ..
[09:36] <mjg59> I'll try to get round to it at some point, I'm fighting ridiculous cluster setups right now
[09:36] <LaserJock> Keybuk: good luck ;-)
[09:37] <ogra> mjg59, ok, i'm still waiting for an answer from hughsie ... 
[09:38] <grndslm> all i'm trying to tell you guys is that prevention is the easiest, cheapest, and fastest way to solve problems
[09:38] <grndslm> if you want to cause more problems, then keep it the way it is
[09:38] <grndslm> but i don't think that's what OSS and ubuntu in particular is about
[09:38] <grndslm> at least i'm hoping
[09:38] <Keybuk> Ubuntu is all about making an operating system that just works
[09:39] <kronoman> grndslm: I can say that, today, my disk with / crashed, but I'm fine because /home is in a separate disk
[09:39] <grndslm> exactly...and it'll work but most newbs will run into problems if they aren't educated about separating /home dir
[09:39] <Keybuk> we'd rather make upgrades just work than confuse users by suggesting they should repartition their home in case the repo men come round
[09:39] <_ion> "if you want to support terrorism, then keep it the way it is"
[09:39] <grndslm> Keybuk:  it's not even about upgrading...it's about a fresh install
[09:40] <grndslm> if i f*** somethin' up....i'm 100% confident that i haven't really lost anything
[09:40] <Keybuk> grndslm: we'd rather make it so nobody ever needed to do a "fresh install"
[09:40] <grndslm> most newbs don't know that...they're worried about reinstalling and losing
[09:40] <grndslm> Keybuk:  yea, really good luck with that one
[09:40] <Keybuk> thanks
[09:40] <Mithrandir> my laptop has only been upgraded from Warty to Feisty all the way without a reinstall.
[09:41] <mc44> Mithrandir: clearly you dont install enough crack :)
[09:41] <mjg59> Again, I seem to have fallen into this strange world where people acknowledge what I say and then ignore it anyway
[09:41] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: heh, did you start on warty? :p
[09:41] <fabbione> Mithrandir: slacker! that means you never tested the installer on your machine :)
[09:41] <grndslm> Mithrandir:  because (a) you're a programmer (b) don't change too much stuff you don't know about
[09:41] <grndslm> this doesn't apply to most people who use ubuntu, i'm sure
[09:41] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: my laptop did, at least, given that I bought it after warty released.
[09:41] <mjg59> So how about I put it this way - this discussion is pointless. Shut up, now.
[09:42] <grndslm> aight...well, there goes down-up software
[09:42] <mjg59> grndslm: If you have a strong feeling that this would provide strong technical benefits, then please write a spec
[09:42] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: I saw a bug the other day which you could only get if you started off with sarge and went to warty
[09:42] <Keybuk> I was impressed
[09:42] <torkel> I have been upgrading from Debian unstable, pre Sarge, up until a week ago when the disk crashed...
[09:42] <mjg59> It's clear that nobody here is going to change anyone else's mind
[09:42] <grndslm> very clear
[09:42] <Mithrandir> somehow, I don't think my workstation upgrade path is anywhere near supported.
[09:42] <grndslm> i'll write the spec
[09:42] <mjg59> Thank you
[09:43] <Mithrandir> (slackware 96 -> rh 4.2 -> various newer RHs, Debian potato, woody, sid, warty, change of architecture, hoary, breezy, dapper, edgy, feisty)
[09:43] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: pretty much my distro path
[09:44] <LaserJock> Mithrandir: without reinstalling?
[09:44] <Mithrandir> LaserJock: yes.
[09:44] <LaserJock> holy cow!
[09:44] <kylem> slink was a good releas.e
[09:44] <Mithrandir> the "change from RH to Debian without rebooting" bit is.. fun.
[09:44] <Keybuk> was slink the one that first shipped APT?
[09:44] <ajmitch> heh
[09:44] <Keybuk> I can remember my first flirt with Debian needing to get APT from a later distro
[09:45] <LaserJock> I reinstall probably at least 2 times a release :/
[09:45] <Mithrandir> this was also before debtakeover, so I had to do it by hand.
[09:46] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: yes, but you're insane
[09:47] <Keybuk> \o/ found their marriage!
[09:47] <Mithrandir> as long as you do it with planning, it's fine.  A friend of mine did an accidential debootstrap over the wrong root partition which made for some interesting rescue bits.
[09:47] <Mithrandir> luckily, he had irssi running so I dcc-ed him a copy of sash
[09:49] <grndslm> i'm with LaserJock...i reinstall about 2 times a release also...how do you do it Mithrandir...what's the secret?
[09:49] <Mithrandir> grndslm: fix the small problems before they grow into big problems.
[09:50] <xhaker> he has a seperate /home of course.. joke!
[09:50] <Mithrandir> if you do that, it's so much easier to fix the big problems when they show up once in a while.
[09:50] <LaserJock> my reinstallations are generally not necessary, I do it to clean stuff up and test
[09:50] <grndslm> yea...i still find it hard to believe
[09:50] <grndslm> but i mean...how do you go from RH to deb??
[09:50] <grndslm> with only a root partition and swap?
[09:51] <grndslm> i'm assuming by backing up your /home directory
[09:51] <Mithrandir> grndslm: rpm -e everything you don't need.  Squirrel libc.so.6 somewhere, start up a few copies of sash, emacs etc.
[09:51] <Mithrandir> then you rpm -e the rest, and use sash's support for ar + tar+gz
[09:51] <grndslm> wow...
[09:51] <grndslm> and you expect most people who use ubuntu to do that?
[09:51] <Mithrandir> no
[09:52] <Riddell> do we use allow-hotplug in the interfaces file?
[09:52] <Mithrandir> I don't expect people to switch distros without reinstalling.
[09:52] <grndslm> well, how do i write a spec?
[09:54] <grndslm> nm...i see it
[09:54] <grndslm> i thought there were different request lists for edgy, feisty, etc..
[09:54] <Keybuk> Riddell: no, "auto"
[09:56] <kronoman> don't forget the people that actually wants the computer for doing something useful, people that can't spend the day removing and fixing stuff by hand
[09:56] <kronoman> sometimes a reinstall takes less time than bug-hunting and fixing (specially if you aren't a expert)
[10:02] <Riddell> Keybuk: thanks
[10:03] <grndslm> no jack...i've been watching linux for at least 5 years...using ubuntu exclusively since hoary (even tho it really wasn't really that stable to begin with...i just hated windows)...and i still don't know how to solve most problems in linux because they're sooo friggin' obscure you don't even know where to begin...
[10:03] <grndslm> nudges are helpful
[10:03] <grndslm> just like the video driver issue...but that's all i'm gonna say
[10:04] <grndslm> i'm out...just think about it, ya experts!
[10:04] <shawarma> Mithrandir: How did you manage the arch change? 386 to amd64, I presume?
[10:04] <Keybuk> Riddell: since we bring up all interfaces by "hotplug", there seemed little point distinguishing the two
[10:05] <Mithrandir> shawarma: yes, i386 to amd64.  More or less the same way as rh -> deb, just remove everything temporarily, then unpack bits of the new system, make sure to keep rescue shells around.
[10:05] <Keybuk> it's more impressive that you're on the same disk without it dying :p
[10:06] <_Kent_> Anyone good with assembly and have the time to help me with something ?
[10:06] <shawarma> Mithrandir: Yes, I suppose that would do it. I only tried doing it on a remote system where the only rescue option available was an 386 based one. I couldn't figure that one out.
[10:06] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: I've switched the hardware around a few times too, including moving everything from disk to disk.
[10:08] <_Kent_> Anyone ever tried to disassemble a windows driver ?
[10:13] <Seveas> elmo, ping
[10:35] <Lutin> bittorrent-gui uses python-wxgtk2.4 in its code, but seems to work fine with 2.6. is there a reason to stick to 2.4 ??
[10:40] <jdong> Lutin: it artifacts sometimes with wx2.6
[10:41] <jdong> Lutin: upstream for bittorrent and bittornado both don't recommend running 3.x.x with wx2.6
[10:41] <Lutin> jdong: and won't even start with 2.4 
[10:41] <jdong> Lutin: well that's a Ubuntu bug
[10:42] <AlinuxOS> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyReleaseSchedule  here is feisty schedule... can you tell me gently ...the debian-installer translation deadline?
[10:42] <jdong> I've been having a PITA time with python2.4 wxgtk apps too
[10:42] <Lutin> jdong: yes, but I'm wondering if it comes from wxgtk2.4 not bieng in the default python path or because python-wxversion doesn't exist for python2.4 atm
[10:42] <Lutin> (in feisty)
[10:43] <jdong> heh well I don't know
[10:43] <jdong> what I do know is that you're not supposed to run bittorrent 3.x with wx2.6
[10:43] <Lutin> okay :)
[10:43] <AlinuxOS> cjwatson, maybe you can tell me ?
[10:43] <jdong> :)
[10:44] <Lutin> jdong: I presume doko is the right person to poke for that ?
[10:44] <jdong> not sure :)
[10:44] <ogra> tepsipakki, is there a reason that all my synaptics touchpads suddenly have sideways scrolling enabled ? thats very annoying 
[10:45] <Lutin> jdong: oh ?
[10:45] <jdong> Lutin: bittorrent 3.x is a largely useless, not much maintained program :)
[10:45] <jdong> Lutin: almost every other torrent client slaps the crap outta it....
[10:46] <tepsipakki> ogra: it is?
[10:46] <tepsipakki> ogra: annoying, that is
[10:46] <tepsipakki> ogra: there were a number of reports requesting that
[10:47] <jdong> tepsipakki: well I for one welcome our side-scrolling overlords
[10:47] <ogra> tepsipakki, it got totally unprecise and if i use my taskbar for klicking on apps there which i do from time to time it starts to get mad 
[10:47] <Lutin> jdong: even if not maintained, the intersting point is that for now, any program using python2.4 won't be able to use wxgtk :)
[10:48] <tepsipakki> ogra: so there was a reason why it was off
[10:48] <ogra> tepsipakki, i usually end up with 4-7 flashing apps in the taskbar if i try to switchto a specific one ...
[10:48] <tepsipakki> not that the changelog mentioned it or anything
[10:48] <jdong> Lutin: right, I think doko might do that wxgtk-version stuff :)
[10:48] <ogra> only if i use the TP very very carefully i can acturlly reach the app
[10:49] <Lutin> jdong: ok :). thanks
[10:49] <tepsipakki> ogra: ah, because you use the area for horizontal movement trying to select an app?
[10:49] <ogra> additionally my TP seems to react to my palm all the time, it didnt do that before my past dist-upgrade
[10:49] <tepsipakki> ogra: did you regenerate your xorg.conf?
[10:49] <ogra> tepsipakki, well, i move the mouse down to the taskbar, that gets me into that area, yes ...
[10:49] <ogra> yes, i did
[10:49] <tepsipakki> right
[10:50] <ogra> my problem is that it is way to sensitive on my laptops ... 
[10:50] <jdong> ogra: strange.... my touchpad uses the scrollzones as normal touchpad area, unless I scroll in them....
[10:50] <jdong> if i enter from a non-scrolling zone it does not scroll
[10:50] <ogra> jdong, if you move only slightly diagonal it goes mad here ...
[10:51] <jdong> ogra: hmm interesting
[10:51] <ogra> same for a slight touch with the palm while typing
[10:51] <tepsipakki> hrm.. I asked around why it was disabled and nobody knew
[10:51] <jdong> that should be an option exposed in mouse options *g*
[10:51] <jdong> tepsipakki: the first thing I do is enable mine :)
[10:51] <jdong> and special tapping corners
[10:51] <ogra> right, but we dont have it as an option yet
[10:51] <jdong> and 2/3-finger taps
[10:51] <tepsipakki> it can be reverted
[10:51] <ogra> i assume that was the reason to disable it
[10:51] <tepsipakki> so it seems
[10:52] <jdong> it'll revert just with a VScrollDelta
[10:52] <jdong> or whatnot
[10:52] <jdong> set to 0
[10:52] <ogra> i'd try to get used to it, but it *feels* very buggy here ... on two different lappies
[10:52] <tepsipakki> HorizScrollDelta
[10:55] <tepsipakki> ogra: vertical scrolling works?
[10:55] <ogra> always did 
[10:56] <ogra> and does without probs now as well ...
[10:56] <tepsipakki> strange thing that it's bugfree
[10:56] <tepsipakki> oh well, maybe it just calls for a proper configuration gui
[10:56] <ogra> well, its an area thats not as often used as the bottom ...
[10:56] <tepsipakki> and keep safe defaults
[10:56] <ogra> right
[11:05] <sistpoty> Riddell: around? we just had some idea about the kde4 stuff, not quite sure what you'd make from it?
[11:07] <pochu> I have just read the beta freeze announcement, and I have a little (maybe stupid?) question. Does the freeze affect also to Universe?
[11:11] <sistpoty> pochu: I guess it'll be the same as for the recent freezes: universe uploads will just stack up until after freeze and then go through all at once
[11:12] <ajmitch> oh damn, beta freeze already?
[11:12] <pochu> ajmitch: this Thursday
[11:12] <j1mc> have there been any pre-beta builds of xubuntu yet?  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-iso-tests/+bugs  i see builds for kubuntu, ubuntu, and edubuntu . . .   no xubuntu.  :-(
[11:12] <j1mc> howdy pochu
[11:12] <ajmitch> pochu: good, I may still have a chance of bugging Mithrandir about f-spot
[11:12] <pochu> heya j1mc :)
[11:12] <pochu> hehe
[11:13] <Mithrandir> ajmitch: I'm off to bed now, but I got your mail, yes.
[11:13] <ajmitch> ok, good 
[11:14] <pochu> j1mc: the fact that there are no reports about xubuntu in the iso test tracker doesn't mean that there are no images for xubuntu ;)
[11:14] <pochu> j1mc: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/ and http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily/
[11:14] <pochu> j1mc: regarding the bug reports, we still have to see what we're going to do
[11:14] <pochu> heno: around?
[11:14] <j1mc> pochu: i know that there are current images, but i just want to make sure that we can report our test results.
[11:15] <pochu> j1mc: oh, ok :)
[11:15] <pochu> Mithrandir: would it be possible to add xubuntu reports to the iso testing tracker?
[11:15] <heno> pochu: yes
[11:15] <pochu> heno: what do you think regarding xubuntu reports?
[11:15] <j1mc> i have hordes of xubuntu testers ( https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-testers/ ) that i am going to unleash on the ISO testing page on launchpad.  we are going to crash launchpad.  ;-)
[11:16] <heno> j1mc: unlikely
[11:16] <j1mc> ;-)  i know . . . i was joking.
[11:16] <heno> j1mc: seriously, that's great!
[11:16] <pochu> heno: I know it isn't oficialy supported, but as there are enough xubuntu testers, it would be interesting to have such bug reports, don't you think?
[11:16] <heno> just have them file comments, that's fine
[11:16] <heno> we do
[11:16] <pochu> heno: really?
[11:16] <heno> don't we?
[11:17] <cjwatson> AlinuxOS: "NonLanguagePackTranslationDeadline" (the installer doesn't use language packs for its own translations)
[11:17] <j1mc> heno: there were xubuntu builds here (  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-iso-tests/+bugs ) for herd5, but they aren't there for the pre-beta.
[11:18] <heno> j1mc: you're right. I'll file them now
[11:18] <AlinuxOS> cjwatson, thanks, already helped me pochu.
[11:18] <j1mc> heno: great, thank you!
[11:18] <pochu> heno: thanks :)
[11:18] <j1mc> pochu: thank you, too.
[11:19] <pochu> j1mc: enjoy your testing! ;)
[11:20] <heno> j1mc: done
[11:21] <j1mc> heno: thanks again
[11:27] <heno> j1mc: when testing it might be worth looking at the bugs being tracked for beta https://beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/7.04-beta to see if it's possible to collect more information on any of them, confirm fixes, etc.
[11:29] <j1mc> heno: thanks for the tip.  i'll be sure to share that will our testing group.
[11:29] <heno> cool, thanks
[11:43] <pochu> sistpoty: I thought in the other freezes universe was as usual, no stacks
[11:44] <sistpoty> pochu: uploading was as usual, but the packages were still held back until after the freeze
[11:44] <pochu> ah, ok
[11:44] <pochu> sistpoty: thanks for the clarification :)
[11:44] <sistpoty> np ;)
[11:55] <elmo> Seveas: ?
[11:58] <mdz> Mithrandir: I think they may need to start with a letter?  in any case I would think they would look a bit strange with only a version number and no words
[12:00] <Lutin> elmo: hello. if you have a moment, could you have a look to https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+ticket/3888 please ?
[12:00] <tsmithe> Mithrandir, are you around?
[12:05] <elmo> Lutin: you set your preferred email to lutin-@ubuntu.com
[12:06] <elmo> Lutin: that gets you dropped from the @ubuntu.com forwarding because a) it's a loop and b) there's nowhere for it to be forwarded to
[12:06] <Lutin> elmo: eek, indeed. going to change it
[12:07] <Lutin> done
[12:09] <elmo> sigh, hobbsee's also broken her mail forwarding
[12:10] <LaserJock> elmo: does @ubuntu.com  work via LP preferred address again?