[12:58] <nysosym> re :)
[05:20] <PWill> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/feisty-session-splashes/+bug/92433
[05:20] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 92433 in feisty-session-splashes "The newest splash is quite phallic..." [Undecided,Unconfirmed] 
[05:21] <PWill> Who was having some fun?
[09:27] <poningru> http://digg.com/linux_unix/Could_the_new_Ubuntu_Splash_get_any_more_phallic
[09:35] <elkbuntu> troy_s, geekosophical.net ... why?
[12:39] <lapo> hi
[01:06] <andreasn> hi lapo
[01:06] <lapo> ciao andreasn
[01:57] <elkbuntu> seems you did it again ;)
[01:57] <kwwii> elkbuntu: yeah, but this time it is already changed
[01:57] <elkbuntu> hehhe
[01:57] <kwwii> I was kinda expecting that this time
[01:58] <elkbuntu> you need to stop looking at porn while you're designing stuff
[02:06] <kwwii> ;-)
[02:40] <nysosym> hi kwwii :)))
[02:41] <kwwii> hi nysosym
[02:42] <yharrow> hey guys
[02:42] <nysosym> hi yharrow :)
[02:42] <nysosym> kwwii: how are u? :)
[02:42] <kwwii> nysosym: very busy atm
[02:42] <kwwii> :-)
[02:42] <yharrow> nysosym,  hows it going?
[02:42] <nysosym> kwwii: fine, have a good work ;)
[02:43] <nysosym> yharrow: very fine, i'm learning C now :D
[02:43] <yharrow> kwwii, I coiuldnt tell whether the earlier phallic commnet was a compliment or an insult
[02:43] <kwwii> yharrow: lol, yeah well, in any case there is a different pic in now :-)
[02:44] <yharrow> nysosym, thats awesome. I got to do that to soon though its been suggested that I learn C++ instead
[02:45] <yharrow> kwwii, cool, do you have a link to the new pic ;)
[02:46] <kwwii> yharrow: nope, but it should be in soon
[02:46] <yharrow> kwwii, ok great. Ill be on the look out for it :)
[02:47] <nysosym> yharrow: yes my first try is a application to calculate currencies *LOL*
[02:50] <yharrow> lol thats great though, I remember when I first started learning javascript. my first try was a calculator lol
[02:50] <yharrow> very lame
[02:50] <nysosym> yharrow: sure, that's my first steps with programming :)
[02:51] <yharrow> I guess once we have the basics down we can make much more fancy stuff
[02:51] <yharrow> although there are many great apps out there that have very little complicated coding and alot of great design
[02:52] <yharrow> ui wise
[02:52] <yharrow> I dunno depends on who the program is intended for
[02:55] <nysosym> hehe :)
[02:56] <nysosym> hmm my girlfriend crys in my ears, i will go away now :-/
[02:56] <nysosym> cu later guys :)
[02:56] <yharrow> oh ok later man
[03:14] <TheSheep_> hello :)
[03:23] <yharrow> hi TheSheep_
[03:25] <TheSheep_> I just stumbled upon this
[03:25] <TheSheep_> http://tango.freedesktop.org/Window_Experiments
[03:25] <TheSheep_> what do you think about it?
[03:31] <yharrow> hmm
[03:32] <yharrow> gonna go check it out
[03:36] <yharrow> TheSheep_, its definitely an intersting and original concept
[03:36] <yharrow> TheSheep_, however I dunno how good it would look in real life application
[03:37] <TheSheep_> I think I've seen something similar somewhere on gnome.org
[03:56] <yharrow> TheSheep_, you mean you beleive that gnome might be planning on doing something like that soon?
[04:01] <TheSheep_> no, these were mockups
[04:21] <yharrow> TheSheep_, oh ok. what do you personally think of the design concept?
[04:23] <TheSheep_> yharrow: it has certain appeal -- but it combines in one several ideas, and I don't like all of them
[04:23] <TheSheep_> yharrow: it's also somehow Vista-like
[04:24] <yharrow> hmm. what do you mean by vista like?
[04:24] <TheSheep_> yharrow: I don't like the displacement of the application menu in both cases
[04:24] <TheSheep_> yharrow: have you see the "ribbons" in the new MSOffice?
[04:24] <yharrow> aha, I see what you mean.
[04:24] <TheSheep_> seen
[04:24] <yharrow> yeah
[04:24] <yharrow> however, this is a little less drastic
[04:25] <yharrow> there just moving it up a few pixels if im not mistaken
[04:25] <yharrow> in vista and with the ribbons there was  significantly different ui
[04:25] <yharrow> However, I still dont feel comfortable with it
[04:26] <yharrow> I kinda like having a definitive strip on top that I can call the title bar
[04:27] <yharrow> in the proposed design it seems a little flat and undefined
[04:28] <yharrow> also, if they made the menu bar the same as the title bar then they would have to make each as dark as the other in my opinion
[04:28] <yharrow> otherwise it would clash
[04:29] <yharrow> that means blue title bar and white text = blue and white menu bar = blue and white menus which i dont think would go very well and would kinda stand out in the wrong way
[04:29] <yharrow> you could in theory make the menus grey and the menu bar blue, but I dont think that would look good either
[04:30] <yharrow> I do like the idea of having a small resizing box in the lower right hand corner
[04:31] <yharrow> only because I find it difficult to hit the exactly right spot when I try to resize
[04:33] <TheSheep_> yes, good, big controls are nice
[04:33] <TheSheep_> you can just make the whole thing white with black text on it :)
[04:34] <yharrow> TheSheep_, i'd be able to make a much better decision if someone would develop a proof of concept theme for gnome /metacity or something
[04:34] <TheSheep_> actually that's how it looks for me with the katiola window theme
[04:34] <TheSheep_> I guess you'd need at least a separate theme engine, or even some hacks in the window manager
[04:41] <kwwii> bersace: ping? do you know how to make the gtkrc make the window deco look exactly like edgy?
[04:41] <kwwii> bersace: I have tried and cannot figure it out :-(
[04:42] <TheSheep_> kwwii: isn't the window decoration in separate file?
[04:42] <TheSheep_> kwwii: I mean, the window manager themes are different than the gtk themes...
[04:45] <kwwii> TheSheep_: I believe they are defined in that file as well
[04:47] <TheSheep_> kwwii: well, can't you look into the edgy's default theme?
[04:49] <TheSheep_> kwwii: look for metacity-theme-1.xml
[04:52] <kwwii> TheSheep_: that file references the colors defined in the gtkrc
[04:52] <TheSheep_> yharrow: here it is! http://live.gnome.org/BrianMuhumuza/ToPaZ/
[04:55] <yharrow> TheSheep_, am looking at it now. great find! :)
[04:56] <TheSheep_> this one looks mac-os-ish :)
[05:04] <yharrow> in concept perhaps
[05:04] <yharrow> there is something original to it
[05:04] <yharrow> i mean in appearance
[05:04] <yharrow> in concept its differnt
[05:05] <yharrow> at least thats what i feel
[05:05] <yharrow> :)
[05:56] <troy_s> greets TheSheep_
 I dunno depends on who the program is intended for
[06:02] <TheSheep_> hi troy_s
[06:02] <troy_s> I think that is the most astute comment.
[06:02] <troy_s> Once again, all design should consider the audience _first_ and _foremost_.
[06:02] <troy_s> How you been TheSheep_ ?
[06:03] <TheSheep_> troy_s: busy :)
[06:03] <troy_s> Good to hear
[06:04] <TheSheep_> troy_s: how are you?
[06:05] <troy_s> Pretty good thanks.
[06:07] <TheSheep_> troy_s: any progress on ubun2?
[06:07] <troy_s> a little, been busy with work and the feature.
[06:14] <troy_s> TheSheep_: Sorry... phone
[06:14] <troy_s> Yeah I have been deadly busy with the various bits in RL which is unfortunate.
[06:15] <TheSheep_> it's busy time
[06:15] <TheSheep_> spring
[06:15] <troy_s> It looks like the feature trilogy is going to get green lit etc, so I have been trying to assemble a creative scrapbook for the project.
[06:15] <troy_s> Get some tones etc.
[06:15] <TheSheep_> feature trilogy?
[06:16] <TheSheep_> blubuntu, oransoda, tec?
[06:16] <TheSheep_> etc
[06:16] <troy_s> Lol
[06:16] <troy_s> No, nothing to do with Free Software :)
[06:16] <TheSheep_> ah, ok
[06:16] <TheSheep_> sorry
[06:16] <troy_s> Feature film land.
[06:16] <TheSheep_> green lit?
[06:17] <TheSheep_> something to do with the movie technology?
[06:17] <troy_s> green light == go to start pre-production bits.
[06:17] <TheSheep_> ah, like, approval, right
[06:17] <troy_s> basically you go through a phase where you have a concept (in this case the rights to a series of books)
[06:17] <troy_s> and you need to shop it around to the studios
[06:17] <troy_s> when it gets the 'green light' it means that they are going to fund the development of certain aspects.
[06:18] <troy_s> it is a massively slow machine.
[06:18] <TheSheep_> I see -- so it's very good!
[06:18] <troy_s> hopefully... you learn to not get your hopes up as it is a deadly slow process.
[06:19] <troy_s> but yes... it has been on a positive track for the last year and a half, but again, it is slow
[06:19] <troy_s> it is pretty much impossible that it _won't_ happen due to the nature of the literature that is owned.
[06:19] <troy_s> anyways, i have been working on assembling a creative scrapbook of brainstorms -- art bits, motifs, philosophy, music, etc.
[06:20] <troy_s> trying to get the foundation in place for the various meetings.
[06:20] <troy_s> i had something to show you recently and now i must remember what the hell it was.
[06:20] <TheSheep_> no hurry
[06:20] <yharrow> hey troy_s
[06:20] <TheSheep_> I'll be here for a while now, I think
[06:20] <troy_s> completely unfinished
[06:21] <troy_s> but you get the idea
[06:21] <troy_s> 100% inkscape
[06:21] <troy_s> i am working on a few bits to offer up for the inkscape guys.
[06:21] <TheSheep_> the last web devel project I used inkscape for turned into a pice of trash :(
[06:21] <troy_s> here let me export a smaller version
[06:21] <TheSheep_> but that was more a fault of totally bad process :)
[06:22] <troy_s> process is everything
[06:22] <troy_s> as you can probably expect
[06:22] <yharrow> TheSheep_,what kind of website was it?
[06:22] <troy_s> without the formalized patterns of design
[06:22] <troy_s> all projects are doomed to fail or be extremely mediocre
[06:22] <troy_s> (i am quite certain you know what i am alluding to :) )
[06:22] <yharrow> troy_s, I couldnt have said it better
[06:22] <TheSheep_> yharrow: for displaying stats and other results of spying on the users :)
[06:22] <yharrow> TheSheep_, how intriguing ;)
[06:23] <troy_s> TheSheep_: dcc accept troy_s
[06:23] <TheSheep_> yharrow: the client didn't really know what he wants, ythey wanted us to start with the graphical design of the application
[06:23] <troy_s> yharrow:  Unfortunately we will be waiting for a while to see that happen.
[06:23] <troy_s> Ignore the hair and such...
[06:23] <troy_s> as you can see, completely unfinished :)
[06:24] <yharrow> TheSheep_, gotta love i when the client doesnt know what he wants and then goes ahead and berates you for not making it good enough
[06:24] <troy_s> TheSheep_: Classic mistake.  As opposed to getting the foundating in place:  Audience, Concept, etc.
[06:24] <troy_s> Silly buggers.
[06:24] <yharrow> ya
[06:24] <troy_s> Of course, in the opposite end of the spectrum, have a look at the Fedora work.
[06:24] <troy_s> It is so going to clobber Ubuntu.
[06:24] <TheSheep_> then again I shoudn't let myself get involved -- it was stinking from a mile away
[06:24] <yharrow> troy_s, what do you think of ubuntus process for design
[06:25] <troy_s> yharrow: It is horrible.  We tried to _establish_ one during edgy, but the entire effort was a waste of time.
[06:25] <yharrow> troy_s, what is your opinion of the current design process for feisty
[06:25] <troy_s> Now we have what you see.  Nothing for a process, no directed audience, nothing for a concept, and derivative and mediocre implementation of 'blah'.
[06:25] <yharrow> ( exclusive consulting for main design)
[06:26] <troy_s> I have tried to summarize my thoughts of the weakness in my little irrelelvant blog.
[06:26] <yharrow> troy_s, i think there is some direction but not enough
[06:26] <yharrow> troy_s, what is the link for your blog?
[06:26] <yharrow> hehe
[06:26] <troy_s> OranSun is quite good.  Lizardking did some good work with that.
[06:26] <troy_s> A) No audience.
[06:26] <troy_s> B) No concept.
[06:26] <TheSheep_> the scrollbars were terrible, but that's easy to fix ;)
[06:27] <troy_s> Let me quote one of the esteemed designers out there, who also happens to be in print:
[06:27] <yharrow> troy_s, I am having mixed thoughts over the tango themes..
[06:27] <troy_s> "Concept may be King (and Queen, and Czar, etc.), but AUDIENCE is the force that governs over all."
[06:27] <yharrow> troy_s, I think sometimes they just look a little too round or slanty and not proffesional enough
[06:28] <troy_s> I think you risk using terms that don't exactly specify what you mean -- "Professional" is a term that drives me bananas.
[06:28] <yharrow> troy_s, where is that quote from?
[06:28] <TheSheep_> tango is *supposed* to be average, bleak and to blend in
[06:28] <troy_s> j. krause, design basics index.
[06:28] <troy_s> tango unfortunately suffers from the same design flaws.
[06:28] <yharrow> troy_s, haha, i had a feeling you would say that. sorry for using the trem
[06:29] <troy_s> yharrow: I think I can appreciate what you are trying to say, but unfortunately, when you are talking about _expressing_ a concept through a design
[06:29] <yharrow> troy_s, professional to me means appealing to the intended audience and cosistent with design guidelines
[06:29] <troy_s> you really must break down those nebulous terms into specifics.
[06:29] <TheSheep_> I think that Tango has similar goals as the Arial font had ;)
[06:29] <troy_s> For example, I have spent god knows how long trying to distill what 'elegant' means
[06:29] <troy_s> yharrow: That is probably a more working term.
[06:30] <troy_s> yharrow: There are no design guidelines.
[06:30] <troy_s> ;)
[06:30] <troy_s> It truly is unfortunate, as it seems that Ubuntu doesn't want to seek the
[06:30] <yharrow> hehe, I'd say elegant is less warm then then it is subtly attractive if that makes any sense
[06:30] <troy_s> 'mainstream' audience, as it appears to be worried about how the GNOME interface appears by default etc.
[06:31] <yharrow> troy_s, what do you mean by being worried about the gnome interface
[06:31] <TheSheep_> next term to investigate: "sophisticated" ;)
[06:31] <troy_s> yharrow: Specifically, we tried to break down the term into concrete artistic elements -- ended up being loosely associated with other realms such as calligraphy (sweeping strokes that extend from fat to thin with tails etc.)
[06:31] <yharrow> how does that conflict with beign interested in the approval of the mainstream audience
[06:32] <troy_s> yharrow: It seems that instead of wondering what say, a 21-36 year old user wants in an interface, Ubuntu doesn't want to tweak with the GNOME default layout.
[06:32] <troy_s> The difference is that sabdfl could, at his whim, have the interface completely warped to meet the needs of a particular audience in a _day_
[06:32] <yharrow> troy_s, you mean the default for gnome is to have the applications menu on the top bar
[06:32] <yharrow> ?
[06:32] <troy_s> The process by which Gnome is developed is much slower.
[06:32] <troy_s> yes.
[06:32] <troy_s> the dual bar, etc.
[06:33] <yharrow> thats messed up
[06:33] <troy_s> Look at the gnome 2.18 layout.
[06:33] <troy_s> So there are many fundamental issues at play that aren't exactly relevant initially.
[06:33] <yharrow> troy_s, on the other hand Im sure there is a motive fro ubuntu being so tightly integrated with gnome
[06:33] <troy_s> If anything, even strictly speaking with the artwork, I find that it lacks communication on the most fundamental level.
[06:33] <troy_s> yharrow: I suspect it is to keep the Gnome support.
[06:34] <yharrow> troy_s, mark is a smart man and so are all the developers working with him
[06:34] <troy_s> again, that appears diametrically opposed to what the mainstream audience requires -- they could care less about KDE or Gnome.
[06:34] <troy_s> yharrow: Smart, but not infallible.
[06:34] <yharrow> troy_s, true
[06:34] <yharrow> troy_s, when you say they could care less about kde or gnome what do you mean
[06:35] <troy_s> I mean that the mainstream audience (Ubuntu's rather almost apparent audience -- not entirely certain)
[06:35] <troy_s> again, suggesting something along the lines of 21-36 -- mature
[06:35] <yharrow> troy_s, I agree with you, as in with all forms of art, the method is not as important as the end result
[06:36] <TheSheep_> most users asked about what gnome is will say: a small man with long nose living in the mountains and guarding treasures ;)
[06:36] <yharrow> that is not to say by any means taht method is unimportant
[06:37] <yharrow> TheSheep_, haha, yeah id have to agree with you.. and thats only if they live in england
[06:37] <yharrow> other people will just drop their jaws and go "huh"
[06:38] <troy_s> yharrow: I think the method is probably more important -- research, planning, brainstorming are all important to reach the desired goal.
[06:38] <yharrow> well what i mean is that the method is less important to the end use than the overall appearance and functionality
[06:38] <troy_s> without which, you run the risk of designing something that strictly meets the needs of a single individual or worse, completely lacking concept or direction.
[06:39] <yharrow> to the developer/artist effective method is extremely important if not crucial
[06:39] <troy_s> yharrow: Again, TheSheep_'s comment seems on point
[06:40] <yharrow> I think sheep and I are the same page
[06:40] <troy_s> I think that fundamentally what we are seeing is a disjoint between the Free Software developer approach and art and design.
[06:40] <yharrow> on the*
[06:40] <yharrow> is that since art and design requires a higher level of insight and organization.
[06:40] <yharrow> ?
[06:41] <troy_s> well i would suggest that art and design, when applied on a high level, requires a heckuva lot more formal thinking and planning that what most people 'believe' to be the proper course.
[06:42] <yharrow> troy_s, I think that if there is an organizational problem it applies to every area.
[06:42] <troy_s> could be.
[06:42] <TheSheep_> troy_s: otoh, one of the goals of Ubuntu is to popularize opensource itself
[06:42] <TheSheep_> troy_s: so they *want* people to care what Gnome and KDE is
[06:43] <troy_s> TheSheep_: I think that is completely mooted by the coarse reality that if people don't have a 'wow that would be lovely in my lifestyle' it will never be adopted
[06:43] <yharrow> troy_s, in my opinion every single process known to man would benefit from organization and suffer from fragmetation and lack of clear goals
[06:43] <troy_s> and I don't mean the silly crap that sabdfl pushes -- like gloss and glits
[06:43] <troy_s> if you look to an expensive home
[06:43] <troy_s> or a showhome / or a piece of art.
[06:43] <troy_s> you will find many elements that have nothing to do with gloss and plastics
[06:44] <troy_s> but more to do with craftmanship and a distinct identity.
[06:44] <troy_s> yharrow:  Sorry, relating to your earlier one... http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/
[06:44] <yharrow> troy_s, I agree that there is too much of an emphasis on high contrast? and the gloss effect.
[06:45] <troy_s> A) plastics and gloss are dated and done.  If we are strictly speaking in terms of implementation details, we need a core of people who can clearly speak that language and can clearly see how the trend is over.
[06:45] <TheSheep_> troy_s: I was thinking about the home methaphor, and I must admit that a toolbox methaphor is closer for me :)
[06:45] <troy_s> TheSheep_: The problem with a toolbox is tha tyou don't live in it.
[06:46] <troy_s> TheSheep_: More and more, computers have infiltrated every element of our lives -- from communication to art to literature to music to science etc...
[06:46] <troy_s> we spend more and more time connected to the net, to others, etc., than we did in the early years.
[06:46] <troy_s> We have set up 'places' online -- residences, meeting grounds, etc.
[06:46] <TheSheep_> troy_s: well, my room looks more like a workshop than like a home :)
[06:46] <troy_s> TheSheep_: Exceptions asdie :)
[06:46] <TheSheep_> troy_s: many of my friends are the same ;)
[06:47] <troy_s> TheSheep_: But you are here too aren't you :)
[06:47] <yharrow> there is something in the human psyche that associates everything shiny with being new and improved. Which is fine within itself. However people dont spend their entire lives in the moment of glits. a new car isnt always shiny
[06:47] <troy_s> you are the exception rather than the rule.
[06:47] <TheSheep_> but I'm aware I'm not exactly the target audience
[06:47] <yharrow> and even when it is shiny its only when its in the sun
[06:47] <troy_s> yharrow: That is a cultural and temporal trend.
[06:47] <TheSheep_> it's hard to design for someone else
[06:47] <yharrow> what they did is dump too  much of a good thing on the desktop
[06:47] <troy_s> yharrow: If you look to history, you will quickly see that not all things that were shiny were considered 'new'
[06:48] <troy_s> Again, if you have a team that has some experience with these notions, you are on stronger footing.
[06:48] <troy_s> Education matters in this respect...
[06:48] <TheSheep_> clothes/leather is shiny when old
[06:48] <yharrow> troy_s, perhaps then shiny symbolized wealth
[06:48] <yharrow> troy_s, gold, silver, jewels or power. swords
[06:48] <troy_s> You need to be aware that _all_ design trends are 1) Culturally specific, 2) Temporal in nature (what goes around comes around)
[06:49] <troy_s> and more importantly, art and design is often reactionary.
[06:49] <yharrow> my point is that shiny things instill a certain feeling in people
[06:49] <TheSheep_> oooh, shiny!
[06:49] <yharrow> and too much of that feeling is bad
[06:49] <troy_s> meaning that an artistic movement will often result as a direct 'reaction' against a trend.
[06:50] <yharrow> troy_s, would you agree though that there are rules that always apply to how people perceive things
[06:50] <TheSheep_> troy_s: having a desktop that contrasts with the design of my monitor screen, keyboard, mouse, box, etc. is not exactly nice...
[06:51] <yharrow> TheSheep_, thats a good point as well
[06:51] <yharrow> TheSheep_, mac understood that very well
[06:51] <TheSheep_> yharrow: well, they can control the whole hting
[06:51] <TheSheep_> thing
[06:51] <yharrow> TheSheep_, and beleive it or not i think some pcs were modeled after the design of windows
[06:52] <TheSheep_> yharrow: you can see how the design of pcs changes with the release of win98 or xp :)
[06:52] <troy_s> TheSheep_: Bingo on that contrast element :)
[06:52] <troy_s> yharrow: The Apple design team looks at the device in the CONTEXT of the user's life.
[06:52] <TheSheep_> fortunately the modern lcd screens are rather minimalistic
[06:53] <yharrow> troy_s,  I'd have to agree. I think that has somehting to do with their realistic looking icons
[06:55] <TheSheep_> ha
[06:55] <TheSheep_> :)
[06:57] <TheSheep_> yharrow: it's more than looks -- they are making the objects represented by icons work in similar way that the real ones
[06:57] <TheSheep_> do
[06:57] <yharrow> TheSheep_, can you give me an example?
[06:58] <TheSheep_> yharrow: the oldest, more frequently quoted one: trash ;)
[06:59] <TheSheep_> yharrow: although dragging a device to trash to unmount it is arcane
[06:59] <TheSheep_> yharrow: but there is more -- bundles
[06:59] <TheSheep_> yharrow: music player with interface similar to ipod's
[07:00] <TheSheep_> yharrow: some small thingies that "just work"
[07:01] <TheSheep_> yharrow: I'm not really very familar with macs -- so it's all "third hand"
[07:03] <yharrow> hmm
[07:03] <yharrow> so you think that macintosh applies industrial design to software interfaces?
[07:04] <yharrow> TheSheep_,
[07:04] <yharrow> <<
[07:04] <TheSheep_> yharrow: industrial?
[07:04] <yharrow> yes.
[07:04] <yharrow> what i mean
[07:05] <yharrow> is that when someone designs a media player, or a chair or a table or anything
[07:05] <yharrow> they use certain design techniques
[07:06] <yharrow> If im not mistaken the process that is used to design these things is called industrial design
[07:06] <TheSheep_> yharrow: they surely have try all the techniques they can :)
[07:06] <TheSheep_> yharrow: I'm sorry, gotta go, talk to you guys later
[07:06] <yharrow> TheSheep_: alright ttyl man
[07:16] <troy_s> See ya TheSheep_
[07:26] <newz2000> http://www.ubuntu.com/
[07:33] <troy_s> Nice newz2000 it happened. ;)
[07:33] <troy_s> Although the aesthetic choice to put a crusty old fecker in a polyester suit as the FIRST thing that someone sees
[07:33] <troy_s> suffers from vastly shoddy optics.
[07:33] <troy_s> s/suit/shirt
[07:33] <newz2000> that part changes from time to time... you should have seen the picture they *wanted* there.
[07:34] <troy_s> Fecking idiots.
[07:34] <newz2000> Some guy pointing at his crotch. :-)
[07:34] <troy_s> WTF are you thinking?
[07:34] <troy_s> It really is a poor choice, but symptomatic of the greater problems.
[07:35] <newz2000> we got that picture off the oreily conf page for ubuntu live
[07:36] <troy_s> It just reeks of more poor optic Microsoft communication.
[07:36] <troy_s> Not horribly personable
[07:36] <troy_s> If you sort of follow me.
[07:39] <troy_s> Is there?
[07:39] <troy_s> lol
[07:40] <troy_s> How long have you been cooking the new site newz2000 ?
[07:40] <newz2000> 3 months or so
[07:40] <troy_s> Wow.
[07:40] <troy_s> Where is the next UDS?
[07:40] <troy_s> Do you know?
[07:41] <newz2000> Spain
[07:44] <troy_s> I suppose it is a fitting picture in the greater scheme of things though :)
[07:44] <troy_s> newz2000: Do you have anything else on your plate at the moment?
[07:45] <newz2000> yeah, a few things
[07:45] <troy_s> Anything interesting?
[07:45] <newz2000> gotta wait a few minutes, still riding the flood :-)
[07:46] <troy_s> Oh are you actually getting pounded with mail?
[07:46] <newz2000> irc
[07:47] <yharrow> newz2000: o wow have i got some feedback for you
[07:47] <yharrow> newz2000: seriously though I like it
[07:47] <newz2000> keep it coming, I'll get it all.
[07:47] <yharrow> hehe
[07:48] <yharrow> troy_s: im actually abit clueless to what newz2000 is working on. care to fill me in?
[07:49] <troy_s> Pretty sure he can fill you in.  For the moment, he got that website into the mainline.
[07:49] <yharrow> **jaw drops
[07:49] <yharrow> did you see the new website?
[07:49] <yharrow> much better than before
[07:49] <yharrow> !
[07:50] <troy_s> Although it seems the text design is fighting with itself.
[07:50] <yharrow> troy_s: which text design? the ubuntu live part?
[07:51] <troy_s> The overally layout is conflicting with itself on a number of levels...
[07:51] <troy_s> For example, when you load the page initially
[07:51] <troy_s> have a look to where your eye is drawn to
[07:51] <troy_s> and where it 'tries' to go
[07:51] <troy_s> solid design layout 'steers' your eyes across a page
[07:51] <troy_s> note that when you first view the page
[07:52] <troy_s> your eye doesn't exactly 'know' where to go for the next bit of reading.
[07:52] <troy_s> for example, I see four general large bodies of text -- upper right, lower left, middle, and lower right
[07:52] <troy_s> none of which are guided by the design to give me cues on what to read next -- order of importance etc.
[07:53] <yharrow> when i look it at it i view in this order... ubuntu live, download now, latest news what is ubuntu
[07:54] <troy_s> Clockwise?
[07:54] <yharrow> yeah
[07:54] <troy_s> Yeah, what size is your browser open to?
[07:54] <troy_s> Mine is set at about 1000 pixels.
[07:54] <yharrow> 1024x768
[07:55] <yharrow> server edition icon stands out too
[07:55] <troy_s> I am by no way an expert in layout, but I do have enough insight to spot a few issues.
[07:55] <yharrow> meant desktop edtion
[07:55] <yharrow> yeah
[07:55] <troy_s> It tries to be three columns, but the flow is corrupted a little
[07:55] <troy_s> Compare it to say :
[07:55] <troy_s> www.apple.com
[07:55] <troy_s> ;)
[07:56] <troy_s> Not that I like apple, but their designers are top notch and well educated.
[07:56] <troy_s> You will see what I mean
[07:56] <yharrow> it does look jumbled
[07:56] <yharrow> no argument there
[07:56] <troy_s> Do you see the current www.apple.com site?
[07:56] <yharrow> troy_s: im gonna look now
[07:56] <troy_s> Yeah have a peek :)
[07:57] <troy_s> Notice how you are 'steered' in ONE direction only.
[07:57] <troy_s> (aside from the usual 'informational tabs at the top)
[07:57] <yharrow> troy_s: it looks like the main ubuntu site has 3 or 4 designs goingon at the same time
[07:57] <troy_s> Compare with www.ubuntu.com and you have no clue what to click, etc.
[07:57] <troy_s> No steering going on.
[07:57] <troy_s> It lacks visual literacy
[07:57] <troy_s> Huw wilkins, the fellow who designed the ubuntu evolve effort last cycle
[07:58] <troy_s> did this page which is quite exemplary (a good proof that we have people in our crowd who can design)
[07:59] <troy_s> http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/
[07:59] <troy_s> better flow
[07:59] <yharrow> troy_s: when i first look at the site, i see the ubunu live logo, I have no idea what it is and its not the reason i visited so iskip it, I then see download now. but I have no idea why i should download and i may not even no what i would be downloading
[07:59] <troy_s> Yes, I think that is a more apt description.
[08:00] <troy_s> And at no point is your 'average' joe or joesephine even made aware what Ubuntu is.
[08:00] <yharrow> i then am conflicted between the right menu and the main section .  i read the menu because of its background but it doesnt contain any real info
[08:00] <yharrow> so i quickly skip to the main section
[08:00] <troy_s> Remember too, that when your primary source of contact with Ubuntu is via a webpage, you will 'carry' your experiences into the installation procedure etc...
[08:00] <troy_s> http://www.apple.com/iphone/
[08:00] <yharrow> but while im reading the main section i am distracted by the right sidebar
[08:00] <troy_s> compare the 'flow' of that page
[08:01] <troy_s> notice how you are clearly given TWO choices, and both are engaged in sequence?
[08:01] <yharrow> i meant the left
[08:01] <yharrow> sidebar
[08:01] <troy_s> Nothing fights for attention
[08:01] <troy_s> The picture clearly pulls the gravity, you absorb it until you are done, then you read.
[08:01] <troy_s> Again, it has solid layout theory behind it.
[08:01] <troy_s> World class newspapers have people who are experts in that sort of thing.
[08:01] <troy_s> Steering the eye.
[08:02] <troy_s> I guess your point about relevant information is quite valid too...
[08:04] <troy_s> yharrow: Did you ever see IBM's spots for Linux?
[08:04] <troy_s> They are very well done (it comes to mind as I just viewed the 'hello' spot for the iphone)
[08:05] <yharrow> in every design your eyes go in one direction first. the more differnt the most prominent object on the page the less confusion
[08:05] <yharrow> does that make sense?
[08:05] <troy_s> well, subject to RTL tendencies :)
[08:05] <troy_s> but yes... things have 'gravity' we learn.
[08:05] <troy_s> your eye is obviously pulled to a number of aspects... sometimes it is size
[08:05] <yharrow> *has never learned design ;)
[08:05] <troy_s> sometimes it is lack of size
[08:05] <troy_s> etc.
[08:06] <yharrow> *hence my ineptitude
[08:06] <troy_s> it ultimately depends on the layout, and the creativity of a designer can easily break 'rules' that people want to lay down.
[08:06] <troy_s> If you are willing to acknowledge that all of your responses are learned, they are all valid.
[08:06] <troy_s> But you need to analyze what is pulling your mind in a given direction and fundamentally acknowledge that there is a rather complicated bit of thinking going on to arrive you at a point.
[08:07] <troy_s> Often asking questions as to what is 'not' happening in a given piece can help too.
[08:07] <troy_s> It boils down to what is called 'reading' art
[08:07] <troy_s> or 'reading' a film
[08:07] <troy_s> etc.
[08:07] <yharrow>  im taking this all in . one sec.
[08:07] <yharrow> :)
[08:08] <yharrow> what do you mean by willing to acknowledge that reponses are valid?
[08:08] <troy_s> Well when people flog launchpad with useless dribbles like 'its ugly' or 'its not professional'
[08:08] <troy_s> they are making bold sweeping statements with the appearance of 'fact'
[08:09] <yharrow> ok
[08:09] <troy_s> I tend to try and cite exactly what it is that is being communicated, or lacking, and why.
[08:09] <troy_s> There are things that can 'work' and 'not work' but again, that is subject largely to the cultural and temporal aspects -- in layman's terms 'what the hell is going on in the world here and now'
[08:09] <troy_s> for example
[08:10] <yharrow> when you said " If you are willing to acknowledge that all of your responses are learned, they are all valid." what was that in response to or what was it reffering to?
[08:10] <troy_s> oh.
[08:10] <troy_s> You said that you were inept...
[08:10] <yharrow> ah ok. got it ;)
[08:10] <troy_s> I was offering that all of your responses are quite legitimate if you can appreciate that they are influenced by a very complicated set of factors.
[08:10] <troy_s> Largely centred around who you are and what you have learned.
[08:11] <yharrow> so what you are saying is that simply because i have not read a book on design my responses may still be valid on account of real life experiences and natural perceptions?
[08:11] <troy_s> Absolutely.
[08:12] <yharrow> ok
[08:12] <yharrow> thanks man
[08:12] <yharrow> :)
[08:12] <troy_s> If you can at least struggle to figure out exactly what it is that is triggering the effects.
[08:12] <yharrow> troy_s: well I wouldnt call it  a struggle but a search definitely.
[08:12] <troy_s> Everyone's responses are valid, but phrased as 'its ugly', 'it isn't professional', etc., is a rather useless end point.
[08:13] <yharrow> I agree
[08:13] <yharrow> however
[08:13] <troy_s> yeah... it just takes the willingness to acknowledge that things aren't quite as simple as many would have you believe.
[08:13] <yharrow> collectively they matter ;)
[08:13] <yharrow> if you take a poll of whether something is ugly or not
[08:13] <yharrow> then end result says something
[08:13] <troy_s> Polls might might now
[08:13] <troy_s> not
[08:13] <troy_s> if you look historically at artwork
[08:13] <troy_s> and movements
[08:14] <troy_s> many trends that became "sheik"
[08:14] <troy_s> started out as heavily criticized and dismissed works
[08:14] <yharrow> you have a good point
[08:14] <troy_s> In more current terms, look to a film like "Blade Runner"
[08:14] <troy_s> It was a box office bomb
[08:14] <troy_s> completely panned and reviewed into the dirt
[08:14] <troy_s> And now, in hindsight, it is considered a seminal piece of science fiction film work.
[08:15] <troy_s> Same thing goes for 2001 (there is actually a very funny book with letters to Kubrick regarding how detested that film was)
[08:15] <troy_s> Being shiek involves a certain degree of 'difference' from the pack, and that involves risk.
[08:15] <troy_s> Apple is probably the best example --  they only control 4% of the desktop market.  They are sheik in terms of underdog status etc.
[08:15] <yharrow> I agree with your saying. who then defines what is good design, and how is it possible that the human psyche can change so drastically in its decsion of what looks good?
[08:16] <troy_s> Bingo
[08:16] <troy_s> Who is relative to the culture and time.
[08:16] <troy_s> What some would call the 'piece in context'
[08:16] <troy_s> for example,
[08:16] <troy_s> if you look back to germany during the war
[08:16] <yharrow> is not culture a form of art or is not made up of art?
[08:17] <yharrow> or does art simply reflect peoples environment?
[08:17] <yharrow> and habit
[08:17] <troy_s> and you look at the master designer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leni_Riefenstahl work
[08:18] <troy_s> you will see how she embodied what the 'currents' were trying to communicate in her work
[08:18] <troy_s> art/design/etc. is nothing more than communication.
[08:18] <troy_s> Simply a language like everything else.
[08:19] <troy_s> That said, by noting that, you can clearly see how flawed some approaches to it are -- you don't sit down and try to 'greet' someone without knowing who/what it is, what language they speak, what they consider through the subtle connotations (formal "vous" versus informal for example)
[08:20] <yharrow> and just as language evolves so does art?
[08:20] <troy_s> Indeed.
[08:20] <troy_s> As anyone who takes even a simple 2 second exploration of art would be able to tell you.
[08:20] <troy_s> Art has a very massive body of history
[08:21] <troy_s> Have you see El Lissitzky's red wedge?
[08:21] <yharrow> and just as there are many languages there are many approaches to art... all valid?
[08:21] <troy_s> Of course.
[08:21] <troy_s> But don't take my word for it...
[08:21] <troy_s> ;)
[08:21] <troy_s> Art and Design communicates.
[08:21] <yharrow> troy_s: no im afraid i have not. mebbe theres an online picture
[08:21] <yharrow> ill look it up
[08:21] <troy_s> If you need more proof of which, you should check this out:
[08:22] <troy_s> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_avant-garde
[08:22] <troy_s> El Lissitzky is still considered a critical figure in layout and design
[08:22] <troy_s> As you will probably be able to tell from looking at that red wedge sample
[08:22] <yharrow> troy_s: is it possible that jsut as there is a main language that much of the world speaks (english) there is a main form of design that appeals to an extremely large poplulation?
[08:22] <troy_s> (not exactly alien to what we seek to do with ubuntu i might add)
[08:22] <troy_s> yharrow: Absolutely.
[08:23] <troy_s> yharrow: "mainstream" one could call it...
[08:23] <troy_s> but again, that shifts ever rapidly and changes.
[08:23] <troy_s> one could argue that 'followers' are frowned upon when it comes to the sheik / cool factor (just look at how the Zune faired against the iPod)
[08:24] <troy_s> it is a rather common thing that it seems smaller factions that touch on SOMETHING tend to get that 'cool factor' -- think of Punk Rock in the era of Disco, or Grunge in the era of Hair Bands, etc.
[08:24] <troy_s> yharrow: You could do worse than to learn about El Lissitzky however :)
[08:24] <troy_s> brilliant mind.
[08:24] <yharrow> i think the issue with following in design is that the followers are attempting to duplicate the original without having the initial insight and inspiration that went into creating the "original"
[08:25] <troy_s> bingo!
[08:25] <yharrow> :)
[08:25] <troy_s> And also note
[08:25] <troy_s> how problematic it probably was for the 'original' artist in the context
[08:25] <yharrow> *wonders if he might benefit from a class in design
[08:25] <troy_s> Andy Warhol comes to mind when he was presenting found art as
[08:25] <kwwii> re
[08:25] <troy_s> art
[08:26] <troy_s> (campbell's soup can probably the most highly recognized, but there are hundreds of others)
[08:26] <troy_s> yharrow:  I would encourage it if you are at all interested in practising or studying art/design.
[08:28] <yharrow> troy_s: my initial reluctance to investing time in art design is concern that for the majority of people the field is far from lucrative
[08:28] <troy_s> Indeed.
[08:29] <troy_s> But you will find that the bulk of the people who achieve a great level of discipline within the field have all pursued it regardless.
[08:30] <troy_s> yharrow: Ultimately a solidly researched and thought out approach won't assure you any more success in the effort, but I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that
[08:30] <troy_s> without such an approach,
[08:31] <troy_s> no design / work / art will attain accoladed stature without such a process.
[08:32] <yharrow> that makes alot of sense
[08:33] <troy_s> and if you don't believe me, simply do a little research into the history of work, pick up a reference book, etc.
[08:33] <yharrow> I think it boils down to do you or do you not want to design. if you do, then regardless of your fears of investing time to learn, you will likely get nowhere unless you do
[08:34] <yharrow> does that make sense?
[08:34] <troy_s> And that doesn't even begin to touch on what you stand to learn from the history of others.
[08:34] <troy_s> Little things like... Phi for example :)
[08:35] <kwwii> Seveas: ping? I added this channel to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat
[08:35] <kwwii> Seveas: and put you as contact person
[08:36] <Seveas> kwwii, aren't you artwork lead? THat's make you contact person :)
[08:37] <yharrow> *has never heard of phi :)
[08:37] <yharrow> is that the same thing as pi?
[08:37] <yharrow> :)
[08:37] <yharrow> jk
[08:38] <yharrow> ill go look it up
[08:38] <troy_s> yharrow phi is the most important number in all of classical composition
[08:38] <troy_s> if you want to learn the most about western / european art, learn that number.
[08:39] <yharrow> troy_s: ok.. I'll look it to it
[08:40] <yharrow> troy_s: what is your opinion of the master/disciple vs  teacher&textbook/student methods of learning
[08:40] <troy_s> Lol
[08:40] <troy_s> What I would say is start doing a little research into the popular works you like.
[08:41] <troy_s> To keep your options open, try to find say, one photographer / filmmaker, one classical artist (oil / pastel/ charcoal) etc.,
[08:41] <yharrow> research into method?
[08:41] <troy_s> if you look to wider disciplines you can often find overlaps that steer you in a good direction to answer your question.
[08:41] <troy_s> not so much method... maybe just start out simple -- 'what you like or don't'
[08:42] <troy_s> and figure out who does what
[08:42] <troy_s> for example
[08:42] <troy_s> when i was growing up,
[08:42] <troy_s> i found several music videos that i thought were exemplary in their form
[08:42] <troy_s> it turned out that they were all created by the same fellow
[08:42] <troy_s> and hence, they had a massive influence on my aesthetic/style.
[08:43] <troy_s> at the time though, i had no clue who they were by as they were created in an era where the directors of photography were never listed.
[08:43] <troy_s> You will also find that if you examine most current 'trends' they often start 'off the beaten path' in avant garde artists etc.
[08:43] <yharrow> wow, I see what you ean
[08:43] <yharrow> mean
[08:44] <troy_s> For example
[08:44] <troy_s> the heavily accoladed "Saving Private Ryan" is nothing more than
[08:44] <troy_s> redoing what Robert Capa did many many many years ago.
[08:44] <troy_s> (I hate to use SPR as an example as it is horribly mainstream and dull, but I am pretty sure you have heard of it.)
[08:45] <troy_s> http://expositions.bnf.fr/capa/images/3/148.jpg
[08:45] <troy_s> look familiar ? ;)
[08:45] <troy_s> Now some would say that 'well that is just 'war footage''
[08:45] <troy_s> but that isn't the case
[08:45] <kwwii> Seveas: yeah, but I cannot do anything about this channel, as I have no op bits
[08:45] <troy_s> Robert Capa was so effective in his delivery that he basically defined the bloody genre.
[08:45] <troy_s> kwwii Yes you do
[08:45] <yharrow> if art evolves is it possible to create work which is not based off of something else? Are there several styles that once "discovered" can only be elaborated upon.
[08:45] <Seveas> you have
[08:45] <kwwii> troy_s: really? cool!
[08:45] <troy_s> kwwii yes...
[08:46] <troy_s> private message chanserv
[08:46] <troy_s> with '/msg chanserv op #ubuntu-artwork'
[08:46] <troy_s> and poof
[08:46] <troy_s> erk
[08:46] <yharrow> :)
[08:46] <kwwii> great, then I will put my name there
[08:46] <troy_s> i think you need the username in there too.
[08:46] <Seveas> troy_s, not if you want to op yourself
[08:46] <troy_s> yharrow: That's way too tough to answer I think.   Styles are often
[08:47] <troy_s> erm... perhaps not often, _sometimes_ being developed in conjunction across several different veins.
[08:47] <troy_s> you will often find similar trends in many different disciplines... for example architecture, traditional painting, automobile design, etc.
[08:48] <troy_s> by the way, that capa picture i showed you
[08:48] <yharrow> troy_s: way too tough meaning it is a philosphical question with no real way to research it, or too tough meaning a valuable question without enough data to answer it
[08:48] <troy_s> might seem pretty 'blah' to you now, but bear in mind that when he was shooting that sort of thing it wasn't exactly 'common' to have a blurry photo ;)
[08:49] <troy_s> yharrow: Yeah.  All you really have is the past, what is going on now, and a very limited set of individuals who are brewing tomorrow.
[08:50] <yharrow> troy_s: i would ask further if there is less completely original ideas now then in the past but I am not sure how philosophical you want to get ;)
[08:50] <troy_s> Also, you will find that those stand out folks in the crowd (the Capa's, the Mahurin's, the Da Vinci's, etc.) all treated the craft with a very very very serious approach.
[08:51] <troy_s> yharrow: Which is probably why you might want to study it.  You can spend hours thinking about that.
[08:51] <troy_s> Many famous artists have quoted in both directions on that...
[08:52] <troy_s> "This museum is a torpedo moving through time, its head the ever-advancing present, its tail the ever-receding past of 50 to 100 years ago."
[08:52] <troy_s> "Without tradition, art is a flock of sheep without a shepherd. Without innovation, it is a corpse."
[08:53] <troy_s> no end of good quotes out there ;)
[08:53] <yharrow> troy_s: well Im gonna go get something to eat , I greatly enjoyed our  conversation :). I think I should probably start investing more time in studying and less time in speculating
[08:53] <troy_s> You might save yourself a lot of time
[08:53] <yharrow> hehe
[08:53] <yharrow> yeah
[08:53] <yharrow> tahts what im thinking ;)
[08:53] <troy_s> again, through using work that others have already done.
[08:54] <troy_s> also, there are many tried and true methods for thinking about things
[08:54] <troy_s> that can lend concrete results.
[08:54] <troy_s> you can generally 'track' where something is coming from
[08:54] <troy_s> much the same way that words have ancestry
[08:54] <yharrow> yep all things boil down to organization and effective management of resources in my opinion
[08:54] <yharrow> why duplicate if you can integrate
[08:55] <troy_s> What I can guarantee you is that much of what you 'think' you know about art / design / etc.
[08:55] <troy_s> is more complicated and possibly more 'planned' than you initially expected
[08:55] <troy_s> you can get a sense of that by looking at Leni's work for example
[08:56] <yharrow> well, Im fairly certain that even the most abstract pieces are much more than merely splotches of color thrown together.
[08:56] <yharrow> Ive always had that feeling
[08:56] <troy_s> Well exactly.  There is a large body of work that led up to abstract impressionism
[08:56] <troy_s> it was a response,
[08:56] <troy_s> that harkens back to the fact that the 'movements' are reactionary
[08:56] <troy_s> warhol's work isn't just a bloody found soupcan
[08:56] <troy_s> it is a reaction to the times
[08:57] <troy_s> as was dali's etc.  so when you head into impressionism
[08:57] <troy_s> it too is a reaction against certain trends.
[08:57] <troy_s> i guess to apply it to computer design and such, you might see a reaction to 'gloss'
[08:58] <troy_s> The best 'buy in' in this case is Vista -- the complete gaudy over do of gloss and plastic
[08:58] <troy_s> The awful 'web 2.0' abortion
[08:58] <troy_s> etc.
[08:58] <yharrow> I think that understanding abstract and impressionism requires knowledge of the culture in which it was created
[08:58] <troy_s> Absolutely.  "Art in context".
[08:59] <troy_s> You can't look at the folder file analogy without looking at Xerox's mentality at the time.
[09:00] <yharrow> what would that analogy be?
[09:00] <troy_s> Here is a good quote:
[09:00] <troy_s> Art produces ugly things which frequently become beautiful with time.
[09:00] <yharrow> and im assuming you are reffering tothe xerox operating system
[09:00] <troy_s> The file / folder came out of Xerox's brainpool
[09:01] <troy_s> IIRC it was the Xerox Star
[09:01] <troy_s> circa 1980 - 81?
[09:02] <yharrow> troy_s: wow man I just realized weve been talking for more than one full hour :)
[09:02] <troy_s> it happens
[09:02] <yharrow> I was that involved in the conversation
[09:02] <yharrow> I enjoy speaking with you though
[09:02] <troy_s> yes it was a nice chat
[09:02] <yharrow> do you hang out on irc often?
[09:03] <troy_s> there are other folks out there who are quite interested in this sort of thing... i don't know how many frequent irc -- more and more i suppose.
[09:03] <troy_s> yes... i keep my connection 24/7
[09:03] <troy_s> unless something bogs it.
[09:03] <yharrow> same, here, I run a channel and I like to keep it logged
[09:03] <troy_s> this is logged too
[09:03] <yharrow> i could use a bot. but I like to be there
[09:05] <yharrow> and combined with the alert on nick say feature its a good way for people to reach me without calling
[09:05] <yharrow> they just ping
[09:05] <yharrow> and i appear
[09:05] <yharrow> :)
[09:06] <yharrow> troy_s: do you have a wiki page on ubuntus site?
[09:06] <troy_s> uh for what?
[09:06] <yharrow> troy_s: like a profiel page
[09:06] <troy_s> I don't really have a profile page anywhere... the closest to it is probably that blog page sidebar.
[09:07] <troy_s> Unfortunately, I go through flits of busy versus non busy and I have to dedicate much of my time to several different things.
[09:07] <troy_s> Which prevents me from dedicating the amount of time that is required to certain things.
[09:07] <yharrow> troy_s: I have a similar situation here so I understand where you are coming from..
[09:07] <yharrow> prioritizing
[09:08] <yharrow> I tend to prioritize alot, its part of life
[09:08] <troy_s> Yes.  Not quite enough time in the day.  Especially when you end up chatting for a chunk of it ;)
[09:08] <yharrow> hehe
[09:08] <yharrow> yeah
[09:08] <yharrow> ;)
[09:09] <yharrow> alright man, Ill see you around then :)
[09:10] <troy_s> take care friend.
[09:12] <yharrow> thank you
[09:12] <yharrow> take care as well
[09:12] <yharrow> later :)
[09:15] <yharrow> troy_s: you run ubun2design?
[09:20] <troy_s> if / when i have time, yes i suppose you could say that.
[09:21] <yharrow> troy_s: is it possible to join the team. Is there any sort of equivilant of a team or is this a private project?
[09:30] <troy_s> yharrow I see you are a beta tester of the new launchpad... is it quite different?
[09:31] <yharrow> you read my mind, i was about to ask you if you were a beta tester too
[09:31] <yharrow> troy_s: yeah the design is quite different
[09:31] <troy_s> No I just got redirected there.
[09:31] <troy_s> But, I can't use it as I am not registered as a tester...
[09:31] <troy_s> (oops)
[09:31] <troy_s> Do you know how to use bzr?
[09:31] <yharrow> nah, unfortunately not
[09:32] <troy_s> It's pretty simple.
[09:32] <yharrow> troy_s: btw if you want to you can become one, all you need  to do is promise not to post screenshots in an email to them
[09:32] <troy_s> Lol
[09:33] <bersace> hi all
[09:33] <bersace> kwwii: nice work on gtkrc
[09:34] <bersace> i like the less sharp orange
[09:34] <bersace> especially for progress bar
[09:34] <bersace> it blends very well with your background
[09:34] <bersace> kwwii: did you upload new gdm theme ? or are you still working on it
[09:35] <bersace> i guess that splash is at higher priority for now
[09:35] <yharrow> i meant to say. all you need to do is send an email to them promising not to post screenshots
[09:37] <bersace> bug 1 !
[09:37] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 1 in ichthux "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
[09:37] <bersace> ichtux ? WTF !
[09:38] <bersace> bug 1 000 000 ?
[09:38] <bersace> bug 1000000
[09:38] <troy_s> i suspect ichthux is the beta?
[09:38] <bersace> nooooo !
[09:38] <bersace> ichtux is ubuntu christian edition :D
[09:38] <troy_s> LLLOooooool
[09:38] <bersace> ;)
[09:38] <troy_s> prefect
[09:39] <troy_s> well that is a bug
[09:39] <troy_s> ichthux is merely registerd as the first
[09:39] <troy_s> so it is defaulting in the parsing.
[09:39] <troy_s> ubugtu is probably just grabbing that first 'affects' line
[09:40] <bersace> bug ubugtu
[09:40] <bersace> :|
[09:41] <troy_s> methinks
[10:26] <nysosym> good evening :)
[10:28] <nysosym> kwwii: all your work completed? :)
[10:29] <kwwii> nysosym: yepp, in a meeting now though, be back in half an hour or so
[10:31] <nysosym> kwwii: ok, have fun :)
[10:31] <nysosym> kwwii: and congratulation ;)
[11:05] <nysosym> hi andreasn :)
[11:05] <andreasn> hey
[11:08] <nysosym> andreasn: how are u? :)
[11:22] <nysosym> re :)
[11:28] <andreasn> nysosym: I'm great
[11:28] <andreasn> happy that 2.18 is out
[11:28] <andreasn> how about you?
[11:30] <nysosym> i have started to learn C, but my first application is a Euro converter :D
[11:31] <andreasn> cool
[11:44] <nysosym> hehe ;D
[11:49] <yharrow> hey nysosym
[11:49] <yharrow> hows it going
[11:50] <nysosym> yharrow, always fine, a little bit sleepy but fine :D
[11:52] <yharrow> nysosym: cool. i was just looking at the ubun2design design team
[11:52] <yharrow> nysosym: looks pretty cool
[11:53] <nysosym> yharrow, yes i will made a new GTK Theme, but i have lost my last work on it. Because i had a HDD crash...
[11:54] <nysosym> otherwise the progress of ubun2design is a little bit slowly
[11:54] <yharrow> nysosym: ouch thats messed up. I just joined the team btw
[11:54] <yharrow> nysosym: if there is something you think that i can do please let me know
[11:55] <yharrow> it will be pretty cool when you get around to making the theme though
[11:55] <nysosym> have a look on the wiki of ubun2design, there i a lot of work for Design mockups, metacity, icons etc.
[11:55] <nysosym> yharrow, do what u can do and present it :)
[11:56] <nysosym> yharrow, but have a look at the ubun2design guidelines :)
[11:56] <yharrow> ok will do
[11:56] <yharrow> gonna thoroughly look through the wiki now
[11:57] <yharrow> i only glanced over it before
[11:57] <nysosym> yes fell free to comment the stuff in the wiki ;)
[11:59] <yharrow> ok cool :)
[12:00] <yharrow> nysosym: do you have screenshots using the theme?
[12:00] <nysosym> yharrow, that's my problem, i have lost everything about the theme :-/
[12:01] <yharrow> nysosym: everything? what about bzr?
[12:01] <nysosym> yharrow, hmm my goal was to release a far completed version of my theme...
[12:02] <yharrow> how much does hard drive recovery cost?
[12:02] <yharrow> or is it beyond repair?
[12:02] <nysosym> that's the result
[12:02] <yharrow> nysosym: do you still have the drive?
[12:03] <nysosym> yharrow, this will cost to much, but i have to start working yet :)
[12:03] <nysosym> yharrow, yes i have, the problem was more an backup issue...
[12:04] <yharrow> do you think the data is worth $400USD?
[12:04] <nysosym> yharrow, no ^
[12:04] <nysosym> yharrow, it's possible to make something new ;)
[12:04] <yharrow> o well than. was worth a thought
[12:04] <nysosym> and there isn't a timebreak to complete all :)
[12:05] <yharrow> you are right
[12:05] <yharrow> :)
[12:05] <yharrow> perhaps the new theme will be even better
[12:05] <nysosym> i think so :)
[12:08] <yharrow> Im installing and trying to download the bzr for U2 right now