=== |Element| [n=Element@122.8.49.18] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === kwwii_ [n=kwwii@p54955964.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === nysosym [n=nysosym@p54B7B7DF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [12:58] re :) === |Element [n=Element@122.8.49.33] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === |Element is now known as |Element| === Ubugtu [n=bugbot@ubuntu/bot/ubugtu] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === klepas [n=klepas@ppp167-251-133.static.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PWill [n=paul@cpe-24-208-190-43.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [05:20] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/feisty-session-splashes/+bug/92433 [05:20] Malone bug 92433 in feisty-session-splashes "The newest splash is quite phallic..." [Undecided,Unconfirmed] [05:21] Who was having some fun? === XP [n=xp@cm218.sigma247.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PWill [n=paul@cpe-24-208-190-43.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === Madpilot [n=brian@ubuntu/member/madpilot] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === dborg__ [n=daniel@e182058014.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === andreasn [n=andreas@h101n1fls31o839.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === andreasn_ [n=andreas@h101n1fls31o839.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === poningru [n=poningru@pool-72-64-213-219.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [09:27] http://digg.com/linux_unix/Could_the_new_Ubuntu_Splash_get_any_more_phallic === poningru takes off in his roflcopter === poningru [n=poningru@pool-72-64-213-219.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has left #ubuntu-artwork ["Leaving"] [09:35] troy_s, geekosophical.net ... why? === XP [n=xp@cm218.sigma247.maxonline.com.sg] has left #ubuntu-artwork ["Leaving"] === nysosym [n=nysosym@p54B7B753.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === bersace [n=bersace@did75-13-82-243-217-90.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === kwwii [n=kwwii@p549566DE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === klepas [n=klepas@60-242-104-119.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === lapo [n=lapo@host102-254-static.189-82-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [12:39] hi === andreasn_ is now known as andreasn [01:06] hi lapo [01:06] ciao andreasn === kwwii [n=kwwii@p549566DE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === nysosym [n=nysosym@p54B7B753.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === elkbuntu pokes kwwii [01:57] seems you did it again ;) [01:57] elkbuntu: yeah, but this time it is already changed [01:57] hehhe [01:57] I was kinda expecting that this time [01:58] you need to stop looking at porn while you're designing stuff === elkbuntu ducks and runs === andreasn [n=andreas@h101n1fls31o839.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [02:06] ;-) === kwwii [n=kwwii@p549566DE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [02:40] hi kwwii :))) [02:41] hi nysosym [02:42] hey guys [02:42] hi yharrow :) [02:42] kwwii: how are u? :) [02:42] nysosym: very busy atm [02:42] :-) [02:42] nysosym, hows it going? [02:42] kwwii: fine, have a good work ;) [02:43] yharrow: very fine, i'm learning C now :D [02:43] kwwii, I coiuldnt tell whether the earlier phallic commnet was a compliment or an insult [02:43] yharrow: lol, yeah well, in any case there is a different pic in now :-) [02:44] nysosym, thats awesome. I got to do that to soon though its been suggested that I learn C++ instead [02:45] kwwii, cool, do you have a link to the new pic ;) [02:46] yharrow: nope, but it should be in soon [02:46] kwwii, ok great. Ill be on the look out for it :) [02:47] yharrow: yes my first try is a application to calculate currencies *LOL* [02:50] lol thats great though, I remember when I first started learning javascript. my first try was a calculator lol [02:50] very lame [02:50] yharrow: sure, that's my first steps with programming :) [02:51] I guess once we have the basics down we can make much more fancy stuff [02:51] although there are many great apps out there that have very little complicated coding and alot of great design [02:52] ui wise [02:52] I dunno depends on who the program is intended for [02:55] hehe :) [02:56] hmm my girlfriend crys in my ears, i will go away now :-/ [02:56] cu later guys :) [02:56] oh ok later man === TheSheep_ [i=sheep@atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [03:14] hello :) === elkbuntu_ [n=melissa@ppp32-100.lns1.syd6.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === elkbuntu_ is now known as elkbuntu [03:23] hi TheSheep_ [03:25] I just stumbled upon this [03:25] http://tango.freedesktop.org/Window_Experiments [03:25] what do you think about it? [03:31] hmm [03:32] gonna go check it out [03:36] TheSheep_, its definitely an intersting and original concept [03:36] TheSheep_, however I dunno how good it would look in real life application [03:37] I think I've seen something similar somewhere on gnome.org [03:56] TheSheep_, you mean you beleive that gnome might be planning on doing something like that soon? [04:01] no, these were mockups [04:21] TheSheep_, oh ok. what do you personally think of the design concept? [04:23] yharrow: it has certain appeal -- but it combines in one several ideas, and I don't like all of them [04:23] yharrow: it's also somehow Vista-like [04:24] hmm. what do you mean by vista like? [04:24] yharrow: I don't like the displacement of the application menu in both cases [04:24] yharrow: have you see the "ribbons" in the new MSOffice? [04:24] aha, I see what you mean. [04:24] seen [04:24] yeah [04:24] however, this is a little less drastic [04:25] there just moving it up a few pixels if im not mistaken [04:25] in vista and with the ribbons there was significantly different ui [04:25] However, I still dont feel comfortable with it [04:26] I kinda like having a definitive strip on top that I can call the title bar [04:27] in the proposed design it seems a little flat and undefined [04:28] also, if they made the menu bar the same as the title bar then they would have to make each as dark as the other in my opinion [04:28] otherwise it would clash [04:29] that means blue title bar and white text = blue and white menu bar = blue and white menus which i dont think would go very well and would kinda stand out in the wrong way [04:29] you could in theory make the menus grey and the menu bar blue, but I dont think that would look good either [04:30] I do like the idea of having a small resizing box in the lower right hand corner [04:31] only because I find it difficult to hit the exactly right spot when I try to resize [04:33] yes, good, big controls are nice [04:33] you can just make the whole thing white with black text on it :) [04:34] TheSheep_, i'd be able to make a much better decision if someone would develop a proof of concept theme for gnome /metacity or something [04:34] actually that's how it looks for me with the katiola window theme [04:34] I guess you'd need at least a separate theme engine, or even some hacks in the window manager [04:41] bersace: ping? do you know how to make the gtkrc make the window deco look exactly like edgy? [04:41] bersace: I have tried and cannot figure it out :-( [04:42] kwwii: isn't the window decoration in separate file? [04:42] kwwii: I mean, the window manager themes are different than the gtk themes... [04:45] TheSheep_: I believe they are defined in that file as well [04:47] kwwii: well, can't you look into the edgy's default theme? [04:49] kwwii: look for metacity-theme-1.xml [04:52] TheSheep_: that file references the colors defined in the gtkrc [04:52] yharrow: here it is! http://live.gnome.org/BrianMuhumuza/ToPaZ/ [04:55] TheSheep_, am looking at it now. great find! :) [04:56] this one looks mac-os-ish :) [05:04] in concept perhaps [05:04] there is something original to it [05:04] i mean in appearance [05:04] in concept its differnt [05:05] at least thats what i feel [05:05] :) === PingunZ [n=PingunZ@88.202-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === kwwii [n=kwwii@p549566DE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PingunZ [n=PingunZ@88.202-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === elkbuntu [n=melissa@ubuntu/member/elkbuntu] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [05:56] greets TheSheep_ [06:02] I dunno depends on who the program is intended for [06:02] hi troy_s [06:02] I think that is the most astute comment. [06:02] Once again, all design should consider the audience _first_ and _foremost_. [06:02] How you been TheSheep_ ? [06:03] troy_s: busy :) [06:03] Good to hear [06:04] troy_s: how are you? [06:05] Pretty good thanks. [06:07] troy_s: any progress on ubun2? === TheSheep_ checks the wiki [06:07] a little, been busy with work and the feature. [06:14] TheSheep_: Sorry... phone [06:14] Yeah I have been deadly busy with the various bits in RL which is unfortunate. [06:15] it's busy time [06:15] spring [06:15] It looks like the feature trilogy is going to get green lit etc, so I have been trying to assemble a creative scrapbook for the project. [06:15] Get some tones etc. [06:15] feature trilogy? [06:16] blubuntu, oransoda, tec? [06:16] etc [06:16] Lol [06:16] No, nothing to do with Free Software :) [06:16] ah, ok [06:16] sorry [06:16] Feature film land. [06:16] green lit? [06:17] something to do with the movie technology? [06:17] green light == go to start pre-production bits. [06:17] ah, like, approval, right [06:17] basically you go through a phase where you have a concept (in this case the rights to a series of books) [06:17] and you need to shop it around to the studios [06:17] when it gets the 'green light' it means that they are going to fund the development of certain aspects. [06:18] it is a massively slow machine. [06:18] I see -- so it's very good! [06:18] hopefully... you learn to not get your hopes up as it is a deadly slow process. [06:19] but yes... it has been on a positive track for the last year and a half, but again, it is slow [06:19] it is pretty much impossible that it _won't_ happen due to the nature of the literature that is owned. [06:19] anyways, i have been working on assembling a creative scrapbook of brainstorms -- art bits, motifs, philosophy, music, etc. [06:20] trying to get the foundation in place for the various meetings. [06:20] i had something to show you recently and now i must remember what the hell it was. [06:20] no hurry [06:20] hey troy_s [06:20] I'll be here for a while now, I think [06:20] completely unfinished [06:21] but you get the idea [06:21] 100% inkscape [06:21] i am working on a few bits to offer up for the inkscape guys. [06:21] the last web devel project I used inkscape for turned into a pice of trash :( [06:21] here let me export a smaller version [06:21] but that was more a fault of totally bad process :) [06:22] process is everything [06:22] as you can probably expect [06:22] TheSheep_,what kind of website was it? [06:22] without the formalized patterns of design [06:22] all projects are doomed to fail or be extremely mediocre [06:22] (i am quite certain you know what i am alluding to :) ) [06:22] troy_s, I couldnt have said it better [06:22] yharrow: for displaying stats and other results of spying on the users :) [06:22] TheSheep_, how intriguing ;) [06:23] TheSheep_: dcc accept troy_s [06:23] yharrow: the client didn't really know what he wants, ythey wanted us to start with the graphical design of the application [06:23] yharrow: Unfortunately we will be waiting for a while to see that happen. [06:23] Ignore the hair and such... [06:23] as you can see, completely unfinished :) [06:24] TheSheep_, gotta love i when the client doesnt know what he wants and then goes ahead and berates you for not making it good enough [06:24] TheSheep_: Classic mistake. As opposed to getting the foundating in place: Audience, Concept, etc. [06:24] Silly buggers. [06:24] ya [06:24] Of course, in the opposite end of the spectrum, have a look at the Fedora work. [06:24] It is so going to clobber Ubuntu. [06:24] then again I shoudn't let myself get involved -- it was stinking from a mile away [06:24] troy_s, what do you think of ubuntus process for design [06:25] yharrow: It is horrible. We tried to _establish_ one during edgy, but the entire effort was a waste of time. [06:25] troy_s, what is your opinion of the current design process for feisty [06:25] Now we have what you see. Nothing for a process, no directed audience, nothing for a concept, and derivative and mediocre implementation of 'blah'. [06:25] ( exclusive consulting for main design) [06:26] I have tried to summarize my thoughts of the weakness in my little irrelelvant blog. [06:26] troy_s, i think there is some direction but not enough === TheSheep_ <-- happy medicore user of OranSun ;) [06:26] troy_s, what is the link for your blog? [06:26] hehe [06:26] OranSun is quite good. Lizardking did some good work with that. [06:26] A) No audience. [06:26] B) No concept. [06:26] the scrollbars were terrible, but that's easy to fix ;) [06:27] Let me quote one of the esteemed designers out there, who also happens to be in print: [06:27] troy_s, I am having mixed thoughts over the tango themes.. [06:27] "Concept may be King (and Queen, and Czar, etc.), but AUDIENCE is the force that governs over all." [06:27] troy_s, I think sometimes they just look a little too round or slanty and not proffesional enough [06:28] I think you risk using terms that don't exactly specify what you mean -- "Professional" is a term that drives me bananas. [06:28] troy_s, where is that quote from? [06:28] tango is *supposed* to be average, bleak and to blend in [06:28] j. krause, design basics index. [06:28] tango unfortunately suffers from the same design flaws. [06:28] troy_s, haha, i had a feeling you would say that. sorry for using the trem [06:29] yharrow: I think I can appreciate what you are trying to say, but unfortunately, when you are talking about _expressing_ a concept through a design [06:29] troy_s, professional to me means appealing to the intended audience and cosistent with design guidelines [06:29] you really must break down those nebulous terms into specifics. [06:29] I think that Tango has similar goals as the Arial font had ;) [06:29] For example, I have spent god knows how long trying to distill what 'elegant' means [06:29] yharrow: That is probably a more working term. [06:30] yharrow: There are no design guidelines. [06:30] ;) [06:30] It truly is unfortunate, as it seems that Ubuntu doesn't want to seek the [06:30] hehe, I'd say elegant is less warm then then it is subtly attractive if that makes any sense [06:30] 'mainstream' audience, as it appears to be worried about how the GNOME interface appears by default etc. [06:31] troy_s, what do you mean by being worried about the gnome interface [06:31] next term to investigate: "sophisticated" ;) [06:31] yharrow: Specifically, we tried to break down the term into concrete artistic elements -- ended up being loosely associated with other realms such as calligraphy (sweeping strokes that extend from fat to thin with tails etc.) [06:31] how does that conflict with beign interested in the approval of the mainstream audience [06:32] yharrow: It seems that instead of wondering what say, a 21-36 year old user wants in an interface, Ubuntu doesn't want to tweak with the GNOME default layout. [06:32] The difference is that sabdfl could, at his whim, have the interface completely warped to meet the needs of a particular audience in a _day_ [06:32] troy_s, you mean the default for gnome is to have the applications menu on the top bar [06:32] ? [06:32] The process by which Gnome is developed is much slower. [06:32] yes. [06:32] the dual bar, etc. [06:33] thats messed up [06:33] Look at the gnome 2.18 layout. [06:33] So there are many fundamental issues at play that aren't exactly relevant initially. [06:33] troy_s, on the other hand Im sure there is a motive fro ubuntu being so tightly integrated with gnome [06:33] If anything, even strictly speaking with the artwork, I find that it lacks communication on the most fundamental level. [06:33] yharrow: I suspect it is to keep the Gnome support. [06:34] troy_s, mark is a smart man and so are all the developers working with him [06:34] again, that appears diametrically opposed to what the mainstream audience requires -- they could care less about KDE or Gnome. [06:34] yharrow: Smart, but not infallible. [06:34] troy_s, true [06:34] troy_s, when you say they could care less about kde or gnome what do you mean [06:35] I mean that the mainstream audience (Ubuntu's rather almost apparent audience -- not entirely certain) [06:35] again, suggesting something along the lines of 21-36 -- mature [06:35] troy_s, I agree with you, as in with all forms of art, the method is not as important as the end result [06:36] most users asked about what gnome is will say: a small man with long nose living in the mountains and guarding treasures ;) [06:36] that is not to say by any means taht method is unimportant [06:37] TheSheep_, haha, yeah id have to agree with you.. and thats only if they live in england [06:37] other people will just drop their jaws and go "huh" [06:38] yharrow: I think the method is probably more important -- research, planning, brainstorming are all important to reach the desired goal. [06:38] well what i mean is that the method is less important to the end use than the overall appearance and functionality [06:38] without which, you run the risk of designing something that strictly meets the needs of a single individual or worse, completely lacking concept or direction. [06:39] to the developer/artist effective method is extremely important if not crucial [06:39] yharrow: Again, TheSheep_'s comment seems on point [06:40] I think sheep and I are the same page [06:40] I think that fundamentally what we are seeing is a disjoint between the Free Software developer approach and art and design. [06:40] on the* [06:40] is that since art and design requires a higher level of insight and organization. [06:40] ? [06:41] well i would suggest that art and design, when applied on a high level, requires a heckuva lot more formal thinking and planning that what most people 'believe' to be the proper course. [06:42] troy_s, I think that if there is an organizational problem it applies to every area. [06:42] could be. [06:42] troy_s: otoh, one of the goals of Ubuntu is to popularize opensource itself [06:42] troy_s: so they *want* people to care what Gnome and KDE is [06:43] TheSheep_: I think that is completely mooted by the coarse reality that if people don't have a 'wow that would be lovely in my lifestyle' it will never be adopted [06:43] troy_s, in my opinion every single process known to man would benefit from organization and suffer from fragmetation and lack of clear goals [06:43] and I don't mean the silly crap that sabdfl pushes -- like gloss and glits [06:43] if you look to an expensive home [06:43] or a showhome / or a piece of art. [06:43] you will find many elements that have nothing to do with gloss and plastics [06:44] but more to do with craftmanship and a distinct identity. [06:44] yharrow: Sorry, relating to your earlier one... http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/ [06:44] troy_s, I agree that there is too much of an emphasis on high contrast? and the gloss effect. [06:45] A) plastics and gloss are dated and done. If we are strictly speaking in terms of implementation details, we need a core of people who can clearly speak that language and can clearly see how the trend is over. [06:45] troy_s: I was thinking about the home methaphor, and I must admit that a toolbox methaphor is closer for me :) [06:45] TheSheep_: The problem with a toolbox is tha tyou don't live in it. [06:46] TheSheep_: More and more, computers have infiltrated every element of our lives -- from communication to art to literature to music to science etc... [06:46] we spend more and more time connected to the net, to others, etc., than we did in the early years. [06:46] We have set up 'places' online -- residences, meeting grounds, etc. [06:46] troy_s: well, my room looks more like a workshop than like a home :) [06:46] TheSheep_: Exceptions asdie :) [06:46] troy_s: many of my friends are the same ;) [06:47] TheSheep_: But you are here too aren't you :) [06:47] there is something in the human psyche that associates everything shiny with being new and improved. Which is fine within itself. However people dont spend their entire lives in the moment of glits. a new car isnt always shiny [06:47] you are the exception rather than the rule. [06:47] but I'm aware I'm not exactly the target audience [06:47] and even when it is shiny its only when its in the sun [06:47] yharrow: That is a cultural and temporal trend. [06:47] it's hard to design for someone else [06:47] what they did is dump too much of a good thing on the desktop [06:47] yharrow: If you look to history, you will quickly see that not all things that were shiny were considered 'new' [06:48] Again, if you have a team that has some experience with these notions, you are on stronger footing. [06:48] Education matters in this respect... [06:48] clothes/leather is shiny when old [06:48] troy_s, perhaps then shiny symbolized wealth [06:48] troy_s, gold, silver, jewels or power. swords [06:48] You need to be aware that _all_ design trends are 1) Culturally specific, 2) Temporal in nature (what goes around comes around) [06:49] and more importantly, art and design is often reactionary. [06:49] my point is that shiny things instill a certain feeling in people [06:49] oooh, shiny! [06:49] and too much of that feeling is bad [06:49] meaning that an artistic movement will often result as a direct 'reaction' against a trend. [06:50] troy_s, would you agree though that there are rules that always apply to how people perceive things [06:50] troy_s: having a desktop that contrasts with the design of my monitor screen, keyboard, mouse, box, etc. is not exactly nice... [06:51] TheSheep_, thats a good point as well [06:51] TheSheep_, mac understood that very well [06:51] yharrow: well, they can control the whole hting [06:51] thing [06:51] TheSheep_, and beleive it or not i think some pcs were modeled after the design of windows [06:52] yharrow: you can see how the design of pcs changes with the release of win98 or xp :) [06:52] TheSheep_: Bingo on that contrast element :) [06:52] yharrow: The Apple design team looks at the device in the CONTEXT of the user's life. [06:52] fortunately the modern lcd screens are rather minimalistic [06:53] troy_s, I'd have to agree. I think that has somehting to do with their realistic looking icons [06:55] ha [06:55] :) [06:57] yharrow: it's more than looks -- they are making the objects represented by icons work in similar way that the real ones [06:57] do [06:57] TheSheep_, can you give me an example? [06:58] yharrow: the oldest, more frequently quoted one: trash ;) [06:59] yharrow: although dragging a device to trash to unmount it is arcane [06:59] yharrow: but there is more -- bundles [06:59] yharrow: music player with interface similar to ipod's [07:00] yharrow: some small thingies that "just work" [07:01] yharrow: I'm not really very familar with macs -- so it's all "third hand" [07:03] hmm [07:03] so you think that macintosh applies industrial design to software interfaces? [07:04] TheSheep_, [07:04] << [07:04] yharrow: industrial? [07:04] yes. [07:04] what i mean [07:05] is that when someone designs a media player, or a chair or a table or anything [07:05] they use certain design techniques [07:06] If im not mistaken the process that is used to design these things is called industrial design [07:06] yharrow: they surely have try all the techniques they can :) [07:06] yharrow: I'm sorry, gotta go, talk to you guys later [07:06] TheSheep_: alright ttyl man [07:16] See ya TheSheep_ [07:26] http://www.ubuntu.com/ [07:33] Nice newz2000 it happened. ;) [07:33] Although the aesthetic choice to put a crusty old fecker in a polyester suit as the FIRST thing that someone sees [07:33] suffers from vastly shoddy optics. [07:33] s/suit/shirt [07:33] that part changes from time to time... you should have seen the picture they *wanted* there. [07:34] Fecking idiots. [07:34] Some guy pointing at his crotch. :-) [07:34] WTF are you thinking? [07:34] It really is a poor choice, but symptomatic of the greater problems. [07:35] we got that picture off the oreily conf page for ubuntu live [07:36] It just reeks of more poor optic Microsoft communication. [07:36] Not horribly personable [07:36] If you sort of follow me. === newz2000 overwhelmed with sudden burst of feedback [07:39] Is there? [07:39] lol [07:40] How long have you been cooking the new site newz2000 ? [07:40] 3 months or so [07:40] Wow. [07:40] Where is the next UDS? [07:40] Do you know? [07:41] Spain [07:44] I suppose it is a fitting picture in the greater scheme of things though :) [07:44] newz2000: Do you have anything else on your plate at the moment? [07:45] yeah, a few things [07:45] Anything interesting? [07:45] gotta wait a few minutes, still riding the flood :-) [07:46] Oh are you actually getting pounded with mail? [07:46] irc [07:47] newz2000: o wow have i got some feedback for you [07:47] newz2000: seriously though I like it [07:47] keep it coming, I'll get it all. [07:47] hehe [07:48] troy_s: im actually abit clueless to what newz2000 is working on. care to fill me in? [07:49] Pretty sure he can fill you in. For the moment, he got that website into the mainline. [07:49] **jaw drops [07:49] did you see the new website? [07:49] much better than before [07:49] ! [07:50] Although it seems the text design is fighting with itself. [07:50] troy_s: which text design? the ubuntu live part? [07:51] The overally layout is conflicting with itself on a number of levels... [07:51] For example, when you load the page initially [07:51] have a look to where your eye is drawn to [07:51] and where it 'tries' to go [07:51] solid design layout 'steers' your eyes across a page [07:51] note that when you first view the page [07:52] your eye doesn't exactly 'know' where to go for the next bit of reading. [07:52] for example, I see four general large bodies of text -- upper right, lower left, middle, and lower right [07:52] none of which are guided by the design to give me cues on what to read next -- order of importance etc. [07:53] when i look it at it i view in this order... ubuntu live, download now, latest news what is ubuntu [07:54] Clockwise? [07:54] yeah [07:54] Yeah, what size is your browser open to? [07:54] Mine is set at about 1000 pixels. [07:54] 1024x768 [07:55] server edition icon stands out too [07:55] I am by no way an expert in layout, but I do have enough insight to spot a few issues. [07:55] meant desktop edtion [07:55] yeah [07:55] It tries to be three columns, but the flow is corrupted a little [07:55] Compare it to say : === darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [07:55] www.apple.com [07:55] ;) [07:56] Not that I like apple, but their designers are top notch and well educated. [07:56] You will see what I mean [07:56] it does look jumbled [07:56] no argument there [07:56] Do you see the current www.apple.com site? === andreasn_ [n=andreas@h101n1fls31o839.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [07:56] troy_s: im gonna look now [07:56] Yeah have a peek :) [07:57] Notice how you are 'steered' in ONE direction only. [07:57] (aside from the usual 'informational tabs at the top) [07:57] troy_s: it looks like the main ubuntu site has 3 or 4 designs goingon at the same time [07:57] Compare with www.ubuntu.com and you have no clue what to click, etc. [07:57] No steering going on. [07:57]