/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2007/03/17/#ubuntu-motu.txt

LaserJockoh my goodness12:13
LaserJockyou should see the link I just got in my LUG email12:13
LaserJockhttp://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-12355-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=31199&messageID=579806&start=4312:13
jdong_LaserJock: no those pills don't work12:13
enycjdong_: what do you mean "rolling versions" ??12:13
jdong_enyc: the concept that there are no distro releases, and updated packages simply are made whenever new versions are available12:13
jdong_enyc: so one "version" of the distro "rolls" onto the next.12:14
jdong_LaserJock: that is hilarious12:14
FujitsuLaserJock: ROFL12:14
FujitsuHahahaha.12:14
FujitsuThat's pathetic.12:14
enycjdong_: sure... I call that "continuois" vs "release based"12:15
jdong_enyc: I've mostly heard continuous referred to as rolling version12:15
=== Fujitsu uses all these Windows services on Linux.
enycjdong_: I think there is real value in being able to re-install a particular "release" of system... and keep that release withing sensible support cycle12:15
FujitsuI don't know how I could live without them. There's not a chance. Ever.12:16
jdong_enyc: I totally agree. Continuous distros are fun for the enthusiast and tweaker, but are too high-maintenance and risky for anything more serious12:16
FujitsuGentoo servers are really annoying to maintain over the long term.12:16
enycjdong_: i.e. you can actually say "it works on breezy but broken in dapper" rather than "well it did work on gentoo but it doesnt now" sort of thing...12:16
crimsunI believe running xserver-xgl on gentoo for a samba server is the bestest thing evar.12:17
jdong_crimsun: depends on your CFLAGS 11!!11 USE -O99 ZOMGZ12:17
enyco well whatever12:17
crimsun-fpony12:17
enyc;-) funny old world12:18
Fujitsucrimsun: I inherited a couple of Gentoo servers that are PDCs for large clients, but without the Xgl bit :P12:18
crimsunsorry, I'm being cynical [moreso than usual]  due to audio issues.12:18
FujitsuWhat's the issue with audio today, crimsun?12:18
geserLaserJock: bug #9296012:18
UbugtuMalone bug 92960 in soyuz ""Show builds" for source packages has a bad default" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/9296012:18
TheMusogotta love bug reports that don't explicitly state that a package doesn't work, but only state that something can be made more portable with some code change, and a patch is attached.12:18
crimsunToshibas and their broken-arse audio12:18
TheMusobug 6973812:19
UbugtuMalone bug 69738 in xjdic "[PATCH]  Termio bug in xjdic client/standalone" [Wishlist,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/6973812:19
TheMusoNow tell me that that report says the package doesn't work.12:19
FujitsuIt doesn't actually mention a bug.12:19
FujitsuIt just gives a fix.12:19
LaserJockcrimsun: yeah :(12:20
TheMusoFujitsu: I know.12:20
TheMusoI marked it wishlist, and the bug reporter comes back and says the apckage doesn't work.12:20
LaserJockcrimsun: somehow mine does seem better in Ubuntu than windows though12:20
TheMusoand couldn't understand why I marked it as such.12:20
crimsunLaserJock: pony dust.12:21
ajmitchZOMG ponies!12:21
jdong_crimsun: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7407212:21
=== ajmitch calms down
Ubugtubugs.gentoo.org bug 74072 in Unspecified "ld errors" [Trivial,Resolved: wontfix]  12:21
jdong_check out that guy's cflags12:21
LamegoTheMuso, the description clear states that the code uses wrong indexes for Linux12:21
ajmitchI really shouldn't be at work right now12:21
jdong_that I think sums up Gentoo :)12:21
crimsunseriously, people scoff at my ponies, but I'm telling ya that's what makes audio work on some machines12:21
LaserJockcrimsun: must be. but in Windows after hibernation the audio doesn't work much of the time12:21
TheMusoLamego: But that doesn't state that its not working.12:21
Lamegoby using wrong indexes you can figure it may not work as expected12:21
LaserJockin linux it rarely doesn't come back12:21
jdong_CFLAGS="-g0 -DTT_CONFIG_OPTION_BYTECODE_INTERPRETER -pipe -O3 -march=pentium4 -fweb -funswitch-loops -funroll-all-loops -funit-at-a-time -fsched2-use-traces -fsched2-use-superblocks -fsched-stalled-insns=12 -frename-registers -fprefetch-loop-arrays -fpeel-loops -fomit-frame-pointer -fmerge-all-constants -finline-limit=32768 -finline-functions -ffunction-sections -ffast-math -fdata-sections -fbranch-target-load-optimize2"12:22
jdong_that's gotta set a record somewhere.12:22
FujitsuO_O12:22
FujitsuI bet it gains like 0.004% or something.12:22
Lamegodo you need a better description "using wrong indexes" on an array ? Its a bug described from a developers point of view12:22
jdong_Fujitsu: ten bucks it actually slows it down :)12:22
TheMusoLamego: Ok I understand now, but I feel that people like myself wouldn't fully understand that, as not all packagers are C coders.12:23
TheMusoso its easily missed.12:23
FujitsuIt also doesn't give the impact. It just says it exists.12:23
LaserJockjdong_: that's looks  like one of my old gentoo CFLAGS ;-)12:24
=== TheMuso goes to work on it.
jdong_LaserJock: lol was it fast? ;-)12:24
LaserJockhow would I know12:25
LaserJockI was always compiling12:25
jdong_lol12:25
crimsunthose chemists. Always ricing for the heck of it.12:25
=== crimsun shakes his head
Lamegopackages which are not C coders should not maintain C lang packages, should just package them :)12:25
LaserJock:-)12:25
Lamegoerm, packagers12:25
LaserJockcrimsun: I only did silly stuff like that once12:25
TheMusoIf a package has patches against source in .diff.gz, do people still break out new fixes into patch files, or do they just include patches into the .diff.gz as previously done with the package?12:25
FujitsuLaserJock: We may forgive you.12:25
FujitsuTheMuso: You shouldn't introduce a new patch system.12:26
jdong_anyone remember that funroll-loops.org site?12:26
jdong_http://web.archive.org/web/20060116052803/http://www.funroll-loops.org/12:26
jdong_some really good quotes there :)12:26
TheMusoFujitsu: Right.12:26
TheMusoLamego: In an ideal world, I would probably agree with you.12:26
jdong_"I essentially started using Gentoo because my ....ing KDE clock would never show the right time in Red Hat."12:26
jdong_yeah.....12:26
Lamegoupstream should fix bugs, packagers should fix packages :P12:26
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LaserJockLamego: it's not always easy to tell the difference12:27
FujitsuLamego: Unfortunately, upstream often doesn't fix bugs.12:27
LaserJockLamego: and some times upstreams aren't very responsive12:27
LaserJockjust a fact of life with thousands of independent, mostly volunteer run, projects12:28
LamegoLaserJock, sure it is, if the bug is not from the package building, its from the source12:28
Lamegoand developers and packagers do not have always share the same skills12:28
LaserJockLamego: but packaging is about building source12:28
LamegoLaserJock, it is about building, not about fixing it :)12:28
LaserJocksometimes we have to fix it to build it12:28
LaserJockbut for sure, if we do that we should send that upstream12:29
LaserJockwe try not to maintain fixes, just get them to users while upstream is working on them12:29
Lamegosuch bugs are usually within the source building system, not on the package source :P12:29
Fujitsujdong_: The CXXFLAGS in that are even longer.12:29
LaserJockLamego: hah, depends on the source12:30
LaserJockwell made source often needs little/no help12:30
jdong_Fujitsu: yeah. I'm really surprised anything compiled with those settings12:30
LaserJockLamego: hopefully the packager-author relationship is good and two-way12:31
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=== TheMuso goes after the dogtail bug.
LaserJockman12:37
=== crimsun dubs LaserJock to do alsa work
crimsunyay!12:37
jdong_LaserJock: You have just earned the jdong "Every Sentence Kills A Brain Cell" award12:37
LaserJockI just gave my advisor a quote so we can drop $2400USD on a single app12:37
jdong_(for that blog post)12:37
jdong_:D12:37
crimsunerr, crap, I think I'd better install dapper before Apr 1312:38
LaserJockEOL?12:38
crimsunyeah12:38
jdong_can we not EOL distros on Friday the 13th next time? :)12:38
LaserJockcrimsun: alsa? no thanks dude. I think people want *working* sound12:39
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crimsunoverrated12:39
crimsunyou said as much yourself :p12:39
LaserJockhah12:40
LaserJocksound is great, when  you need it12:40
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LaserJockI'd use sound much more if I was ever in a good position12:40
LaserJockfor it12:40
LaserJockI always end up at lab12:41
LaserJockor my wife's trying to talk to me12:41
crimsunjust in case anyone's contemplating buying a brand spanking new laptop, I recommend _not_ getting a toshiba.12:41
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LaserJockyeah, I think my first will be my last12:41
LaserJockit was pretty cheap, at the time12:41
LaserJockbut it's kinda a pain12:41
crimsunthey're excellent doorstops.12:41
LaserJockthe keyboard is starting to go12:42
LaserJockand the screen is getting wobbly12:42
LaserJockand not from compiz12:42
crimsunooh, you get desktop-effects for free!12:42
jdong_LaserJock: ha, not from compiz :)12:42
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jdong_is it time to start filing funny compiz bugs?12:42
LaserJockthe hinge is just getting lose12:42
jdong_like windows I can no longer find after flinging them around?12:42
=== TheMuso will never touch toshiba again, thats for sure.
LaserJockcompiz made me throw up, now my keyboard doesn't work12:43
TheMusoMy thinkpad is more solid than any toshiba I have previously owned.12:43
crimsunTheMuso: but creative labs and toshiba are a match made in $heaven!12:44
=== TheMuso notes that he had toshibas before he used Linux for day-to-day work.
TheMusocrimsun: Yeah.12:44
crimsunoh wait, sorry, I mistook madness for support. Sorry.12:44
=== TheMuso hopes to get another couple of years out of this notebook, assuming I can work around battery life.
TheMusoThe notebook is already three years old.12:45
LaserJockmy toshiba is around 3-4 years old12:47
LaserJockthe stupid ac adapter is going too12:47
LaserJockit's like $50 for the cheapest replacment I could find12:47
TheMusoWhats the recommended patch system to use with a package that uses cdbs and currently has no patch system?12:49
LaserJocksimple-patchsys I'd think12:49
FujitsuAre there currently modifications to the source?12:49
TheMusono12:49
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rbrunhuberIs there a good tutorial for debugging c/c++ with kdevelop or eclipse?01:01
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bddebianHeya gang01:07
geserHi bddebian01:07
TheMusoHey bddebian.01:07
FujitsuHi bddebian.01:08
bddebianHi geser, TheMuso, Fujitsu01:08
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TheMusoHeya Hobbsee!01:13
FujitsuHi Hobbsee.01:13
Hobbseehey TheMuso, Fujitsu!01:14
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bddebianHeya LaserJock01:40
LaserJockhi bddebian 01:40
LaserJockhmm01:49
LaserJockevolution seems really nice01:49
jdongyes, it shold be taught in schools.01:50
TheMusohar har har01:50
jdong:)01:51
zakamemorning all02:08
TheMusoHey zakame.02:08
fernandohi zakame is night :P02:08
zakameTheMuso: !here02:09
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ScottKHi all.02:54
ScottKAnyone in UUS available to look at uploading a patch (Bug #92569)?02:54
UbugtuMalone bug 92569 in libspf2 "Intermittent incorrect SPF results" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/9256902:54
TheMusoScottK: I'll take a look.02:55
ScottKCool.  Thanks TheMuso02:55
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zulhey02:56
ScottKho02:57
Hobbseehi zul 02:57
zulhey Hobbsee how goes it02:57
Hobbseezul: i've lost my USB stick, but apart form that, it goes02:58
zulgood good..02:58
tonyyarussoHobbsee: at least those are getting cheaper - any significant data?02:58
Hobbseetonyyarusso: some, yes02:59
Hobbseetonyyarusso: i dont think my gpg key was on there though02:59
tonyyarussoHobbsee: Well, only moderate damage then.02:59
zulits not the end of the world03:01
Hobbseetrue03:02
Hobbseejust annoying03:02
TheMusoScottK: Re mentioning lp bugs in the changelog, its better to use the form Closes LP: #number, as when the package gets uploaded, soyuz recognises that you have mentioned a bug closure, and while it doesn't close the bug yet, it will in the future.03:03
TheMusoScottK: I can change that easily enough, but just be aware of that for next time.03:03
ScottKOK.  Thanks.03:03
ScottKThe dpatch stuff looked correct?03:04
TheMusoSeems to be ok, I'm about to build.03:04
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TheMusoScottK: Have you made sure that the previous patch you applied for amd64 actually gets patched in?03:12
TheMusoHang on.03:12
=== TheMuso checks build log.
TheMusoYes it does.03:13
ScottKCool.  How's it look?03:16
TheMusoScottK: Good.03:17
ScottKGreat.03:17
TheMusoScottK: Uploaded.03:21
ScottKGreat.  Thanks for the help.03:21
TheMusoHave a look at my most recent comment, you will notice this line. Launchpad-Bugs-Fixed: 9256903:21
TheMusoThat is a direct result of the way one mentions it in the changelog.03:22
ScottKWill do.03:22
jdongMOTU's, how would you like backports bugs redirected to you guys?03:22
jdongi.e. I'm coming across lots of backport requests that are more SRU-oriented03:23
jdongshall I just affects: the Ubuntu source package?03:23
jdongany group that should be subscribed, etc?03:23
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TheMusoScottK: You know the drill with uploaded packages? Set to fix released once the package has built successfully, noting that currently a manual shove is required for universe stuff to get through?03:29
ScottKDidn't know about the manual shove, but other than that, yes.03:31
ScottKWho has to push (do I just wait for the archive admins to get around to it)?03:31
Hobbseejust wait for the archive admisn03:31
ScottKOK.  Thanks Hobbsee.03:32
ajmitchyay, done with work for the day03:33
Hobbseeajmitch: hooray, now you can get beryl into universe for feisty.03:33
ajmitchno, I won;t03:33
Hobbseeajmitch: sabdfl wants it03:34
ajmitchsabdfl wants lots of things03:34
TheMusohaha03:35
=== TheMuso decides to torture himself by turning a text only config script for a package into debconf.
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Hobbseeajmitch: true that.  not often that he visits #beryl-dev and tells them that he wants to see beryl in ubuntu by feisty03:37
ajmitchthat's heartwarming, really03:38
ajmitchbut it doesn't inspire me to work on the packages03:38
Hobbseehehe03:39
Hobbseehttp://pricechild.co.uk/logs03:39
ajmitchoh dear03:40
ajmitch"let's talk to dholbach about accelerating you to the point where you can upload straight to ubuntu"03:41
ajmitchwho needs silly things like procedures, etc?03:41
TheMusoajmitch: Thats unfair.03:42
TheMusoFOr us who put in the hard work.03:42
Hobbseeajmitch: indeed.03:43
Hobbseeajmitch: and freezes03:43
Hobbseeajmitch: however, he's emailed MC asking about it, apparently, although i havent seen teh mail come through yet, so i'm sure you'll be able to voice your objections :)03:44
lifelesswell03:44
lifelessdepends on what accelerate means to me03:44
ajmitchI know03:44
lifelessif it means 'train him up', then he will be putting in the hard work03:44
ajmitchI'm presuming it means that03:44
ajmitch21:54 <          sabdfl > i've mailed motu-council and cc to ask we change that to a moderated team03:45
ajmitchhah03:45
ajmitchI'm sure it was decided that it be a restricted team at the same time ubuntu-dev was made so03:46
ajmitchsince we do everything by email now03:46
tonyyarussoIs it possible to ask LP to e-mail you about every change to a particular package?03:51
TheMusotonyyarusso: You can put your name down to receive bugs.03:53
TheMusoOther than that, I know of no other way.03:54
tonyyarussook03:54
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Hobbseejdong: no idea how you should redirect them back to us.  maybe tag them as sru-needed or something.  someone actually has to have the interest to put the SRU through.04:08
jdongHobbsee: *sigh* that's the thing... I'm so tempted to allow backports solely based on reason of bugfix.04:09
jdongI'm pretty convinced that doing so does not affect the chances of it at SRU anyway04:09
Hobbseejdong: sru's getting easier, but we dont have that many people, and most people are concentrating on feisty04:09
jdongHobbsee: it's getting easier, yes, but for upstreams that don't make bugfixes easy to cherrypick, it's still a burden04:10
Hobbseetrue04:10
jdongthat, as you said, most don't want to even consider04:10
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guidexhey04:24
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Hobbseehiya04:24
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orangeyhey all!05:40
Hobbseehiya05:40
orangeyis there some sort of tree (CVS, SVN, etc) where patches to packages go before they end up in repos?05:40
orangeyor do maintainers only upload packages?05:40
whiteorangey: this depends on the package05:44
whiteorangey: some teams (like pkg-perl team, cyrus team, ...) have a VCS where they store their sources05:45
whiteorangey: other packages don't (i do not have a VCS for my smaller packages which i maintain alone for instance)05:45
orangeywhite: what about the linux-source package?05:46
orangeyI assume it would..05:46
Lathiatthats maintained in git i think05:47
jdongit's in git05:47
jdongkernel.org/ , git, ubuntu-2.6.git05:47
Hobbseeheya white!05:47
whiteorangey: you mean the kernel? yes the kernel team has its own VCS05:47
whitenot quite sure if it is the same for ubuntu and debian though ...05:47
whiteHobbsee: heya :)05:47
whiteHobbsee: so when are you finally coming to Melb? :)05:48
orangeywhite: and where can I find the VCSs?05:48
orangeyah!05:48
orangeyjdong beat me to it : )05:48
whiteorangey: i am not quite sure about ubuntu, but debians is on alioth afaik05:48
whitealioth.debian.org that is05:48
jdonghttp://science.slashdot.org/science/07/03/16/2125257.shtml05:48
jdongoops05:48
jdonghttp://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/bcollins/ubuntu-2.6.git;a=summary05:48
jdong"human clipboard race condition".05:48
orangeythank you all!05:50
Hobbseewhite: dunno.  when i dont have uni05:50
whiteHobbsee: mid-semester break ...05:54
white. o O(hint hint ) ;)05:54
Hobbseewhite: good point.  maybe :005:54
Hobbseewhite: whatever would i do tehre?05:54
whitehmm maybe i should travel a bit as well05:54
StevenKLike there's anything to do in Melbourne anyway.05:56
TheMusoI am told that melbourne has a good live music scene.05:57
ajmitchmelbourne is nice :)05:59
=== ajmitch might come over in june or july for a few days
orangeyalright, good night friends!06:00
orangeyThanks for the direction about the kernel!06:00
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=== LaserJock tries to do some PHP
LaserJockI haven't quite figured out how to do anything useful06:18
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ajmitchLaserJock: the  most useful thing you can do with php is run far away06:21
LaserJockit can't be that bd06:22
LaserJock*bad06:22
LaserJockI wanted to make a cool little page to help me with LP tracking06:23
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LaserJockmaybe I could try mod_python though06:27
LaserJockajmitch: do you know of an example of page using mod_python that's really easy?06:31
LaserJocklike, I was trying to read REVU but it wasn't as simple for a first example as I'd like it to be06:32
tonyyarussoLaserJock: bantracker maybe?06:34
LaserJocktonyyarusso: where would I get my hands on the code for that do you think?06:38
LaserJockwould Seveas have it somewhere?06:38
tonyyarussoLaserJock: Try the ubotu/Ubugtu code checkout from Launchpad.  I'm not sure if the web code is included, but it might be.06:39
=== jpon [n=jpniane@neu67-3-82-239-80-181.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu
poningrufeisty bug: links2 depends on libdirectfb-0.9-24 but feisty has libdirectfg-0.9-2506:43
poningruponingru bug: poningru is too lazy to file bugs in lp.net, so he bugs people in IRC06:44
tonyyarussoponingru: Could you file it and tag it as "bitesize" and "packaging" please?06:44
tonyyarussoheh06:44
poningrutonyyarusso: can you fix that bug?06:45
poningruthe poningru bug I mean ;_06:45
poningruerr ;)06:45
poningruwill do06:45
poningruactually06:45
tonyyarussoponingru: Give me a blunt object and a plane ticket06:45
poningrurofl06:46
=== Hobbsee steals the blunt object, and takes it to work, so she can do nasty things to idiot customers with it
poningrurofl06:46
FujitsuHobbsee: But you have your point stick!06:48
Hobbseeyes, i know how to work the stuff at work.  no, you telling me that it works the other way, and it not working that way, will just end up with you looking stupid.06:48
Hobbseeyes, you do have to pay for the cigarettes.  it's not acceptable to sit on the counter, reach around, and try to take some.06:48
FujitsuHobbsee: It might also end up with them looking hit with a blunt objectg.06:48
TheMusoI wouldn't be surprised if a lot of packages that use directfb are broken.06:49
FujitsuTheMuso: I've seen quite a few.06:49
poningrutonyyarusso: file it against links2 right?06:49
=== Fujitsu gets rdepends and checks them.
TheMusoFujitsu: I tried that.06:49
Hobbseesmoking some really good crack will ENSURE that we notice you, because of the stench!06:49
HobbseeFujitsu: heh06:49
TheMusoFujitsu: I wasn't able to get any output.06:49
tonyyarussoponingru: yeah06:49
poningrutonyyarusso: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+source/links2/+bugs06:50
poningruright?06:50
Fujitsuponingru: Strip out the feisty06:50
poningruright06:51
FujitsuGah, stupid stupid stupid forum-people.06:52
FujitsuI responded to a thread that they should file a bug.06:52
tonyyarussolooking06:52
TheMusoFujitsu: Were you able to get anything?06:52
FujitsuThey continue to put bug-worthy comments in the thread, without filing a bug.06:52
FujitsuTheMuso: Haven't tried yet.06:52
HobbseeFujitsu: hah.  i think is aw that, yes06:52
FujitsuI replied to like 20 threads yesterday telling people to file bugs, damnit.06:52
poningrulol alan pope already filed it06:52
tonyyarussonice06:53
Fujitsuponingru: Link?06:53
poningruhttps://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/links2/+bug/92712/06:53
UbugtuMalone bug 92712 in links2 "Broken dependency on libdirectfb-0.9-24" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  06:53
=== Fujitsu fixes with a rebuild.
poningruyaaay06:54
tonyyarussoponingru: you could confirm it I suppose06:54
guidexi'm a programmer of ten years who just moved from windows to linux and would like to start making linux apps, is realbasic 2007 be a good start? (previously vb6, vb.net, vc#, java sdk, php)06:56
guidex.. under ubuntu06:56
FujitsuRealBasic is one of the more evil languages around.06:56
guidexoh06:56
TheMusoWe need to be able to do a mass pkg scan of packages that build-dep on a particular package.06:56
tonyyarussohehe06:56
poningruguidex: YECH06:56
poningrupython06:56
FujitsuYou could grab MonoDevelop and continue using C# and VB.NET, or learn Python.06:56
guidexpython? never even had an overview of it06:57
guidexis python prefered?06:57
tonyyarussoguidex: Common languages from what I've seen include python, C, and smatterings of perl, C++, and PHP, depending on what you're doing06:57
Fujitsuguidex: RealBASIC is proprietary and impossible to include.06:57
guidexhrm06:57
=== tonyyarusso has been meaning to try python too
guidexwell thing is i06:57
guidexi've mostly been under vb/vb606:57
guidexto mono then06:58
poningrumono--06:58
guidexso realbasic apps can still be installed?06:58
imbrandonguidex, gambas == vb6 , mono == vb.net c#06:58
poningrupython++06:58
FujitsuTheMuso: You should be able to use grep-dctrl to do that.06:58
imbrandoni was a win programer too at one time ;)06:58
LaserJockimbrandon! hi!06:59
imbrandon( long ago )06:59
imbrandonheya everyone06:59
FujitsuI must say you'd be a whole lot better off learning Python. It's pretty easy.06:59
Fujitsu!python06:59
FujitsuHi imbrandon.06:59
ubotupython: An interactive high-level object-oriented language (default version). In component main, is important. Version 2.4.3-11ubuntu3 (edgy), package size 37 kB, installed size 208 kB06:59
Fujitsu.. not very useful, ubotu.06:59
imbrandonFujitsu, not nessesarly, some times you use what you know, its better for me to use gambas or mono, then learn a new lang06:59
guidexso gambas apps are easy to install then?06:59
guidexless dependencies?06:59
imbrandonguidex, yes06:59
FujitsuMono is better.06:59
imbrandonmono is best06:59
FujitsuGambas has enormous runtime dependencies, doesn't it?07:00
imbrandonin your situation07:00
imbrandonFujitsu, no07:00
imbrandonno more than vb607:00
imbrandonno more than python07:00
imbrandonno more than perl07:00
imbrandonno more than c++07:00
FujitsuBut Gambas is very non-standard.07:00
imbrandon;)07:00
FujitsuPython, Perl, C++ are commonly installed.07:00
imbrandonFujitsu, stop talking unless you know what you are trying to say07:00
imbrandonhow is it non standard07:00
imbrandonits a damn programing lang07:01
imbrandonit makes it own standard07:01
guidexdoes anyone in here have vb6 experience?07:01
FujitsuI mean, it's very uncommon to have the runtime installed.07:01
imbrandonFujitsu, and in my environment it uncommon to have perl installed, that dosent make perl non-standard07:01
guidexif so... does anyone know how feasable (if at all) it is to run vb6 under linux/wine and view your apps that way07:01
TheMusoFujitsu: Thanks. Never knew of that one.07:01
guidexcause i got it running, but can't compile07:02
FujitsuTheMuso: No problem. It's useful07:02
imbrandonguidex, i used vb6 for 7 or 9 years, yes they can run under wine, or you can paste them into gambas and recompile ( same syntax ) or you can convert them to vb.net and use mono07:02
guidexok thanks07:02
imbrandonFujitsu, gambas has runtimes just like vb6 ( or any other lang for that matter ) but with things like apt-get , deps are no big deal right?07:03
imbrandon;)07:03
jdongimbrandon: vb7 porting is a good deal of work though07:04
=== poningru spends next half an hour trying to install mythtv because of its deps
jdongbut definitely worth it IMO07:04
imbrandonjdong, there are 1000's of converteers out there that do 99% of the work07:04
guidexi haven't successfully ported my code using .net but i continue to try :D07:04
imbrandonponingru, join #ubuntu-mythtv we'll give you a hand , also there is a new meta that will do it all for you ( in feisty )07:05
poningruimbrandon: I was kidding :p07:05
poningrualready have it installed07:05
jdongpfft poser :)07:06
poningruimbrandon: see your comment re: deps ;)07:06
=== poningru posses for jdong
poningruerr wait a sec07:07
poningruHobbsee: come pose here will ya07:07
=== poningru is the wrong gender for this kinda thing
=== poningru runs
poningrubefore Hobbsee gets him with her pointy stick of doom07:08
=== imbrandon hugs Fujitsu , sorry that hit a nerv, Linux only programers sometimes dont understand the learning curv of comming from windows, sometimes using what you know is better than the stock "learn language X" response
=== tonyyarusso watches poningru bite the dust
jdongponingru: meh gender never stopped me...07:08
jdong(kidding)07:09
=== Fujitsu hugs imbrandon back, presuming that this message actually sends... there's a lot of lag with 3 pbuilders running.
poningruwoah07:09
poningruFujitsu: what kinda box you got?07:09
tonyyarussoFujitsu: You think you're lagged?  HA!07:09
Fujitsuponingru: Dell Inspiron 630m, PM1.6GHz, 1GiB...07:09
poningrubah thats not so bad at all07:09
=== tonyyarusso sees lags over 100 routinely
Fujitsutonyyarusso: As in, my cursor moves once every couple of seconds at the moment.07:10
FujitsuNot internet lag.07:10
FujitsuI used to be a VB 4 programmer, back many years ago.07:10
poningruFujitsu: ... get a seperate box dude...07:10
=== Hobbsee beats poningru with a large axe
tonyyarussoah07:10
imbrandonor use aurora / intrepid :)07:10
Fujitsuimbrandon: I was thinking that.07:10
poningrueek07:10
=== poningru bleeds all over -motu
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tonyyarussoAw man, now we have to clean it again07:11
=== Fujitsu pushes poningru out, and proceeds to clean up.
=== Hobbsee makes tonyyarusso clean
tonyyarussoSo much for the Beta release07:11
imbrandonvb4 wow, i rember when that came out, was the first 32bit ( and 16 if you was cheap ) vb ;)07:11
Fujitsuimbrandon: In fact, I have the box right here.07:11
FujitsuIt's enormous.07:11
=== TheMuso is planning on really getting into C by creating an audio game.
FujitsuA couple of thousand pages of manuals, 14 VB floppies, and 1 ODBC redistributable one.07:12
imbrandonTheMuso, cool07:12
=== TheMuso still has a copy of visual basic for DOS lying around.
imbrandonTheMuso, sodo i ;)07:12
FujitsuIt has advertising on it about how it's all new and 32-bit.07:12
Fujitsuponingru: Fix for links2 uploaded.07:13
poningruyaaah07:13
poningrunow thats service07:13
tonyyarussoindeed07:14
=== tonyyarusso high-fives Fujitsu
=== poningru ^5's Fujitsu too
=== poningru tracks down other packages that might still depend on the old one
=== LaserJock kicks mod_python
Fujitsuponingru: I'll generate a list in a sec.07:16
FujitsuLaserJock: What's the issue? I've used it a bit.07:16
imbrandonLaserJock, wasup ?07:18
poningruso I had a question re: one of the packages07:18
imbrandonbrb gotta replace some ram in a server07:18
poningruerr nm07:18
FujitsuI'm trying to look at bug #93007, but I can't get a proper backtrace from it, as apport doesn't catch it, because something else does. Anybody got any ideas?07:19
UbugtuMalone bug 93007 in gnome-breakout "Gnome-Breakout is busted (feisty)" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/9300707:19
LaserJockFujitsu: well, I'm using an older version07:20
LaserJockFujitsu: and it doesn't seem to like me very well07:20
StevenKI didn't think gnome had a crash handler.07:20
LaserJockgetting the .htaccess right is a pain07:20
FujitsuLaserJock: What is it doing toe exhibit that dislike?07:20
StevenKFujitsu: Use gdb like normal people?07:20
FujitsuStevenK: It has bugbuddy, but it doesn't do that sort of thing.07:20
FujitsuStevenK: True... I wonder if that'll work...07:21
LaserJockFujitsu: it just doesn't run the .py, it just shows the code instead07:21
FujitsuIndeed it does, but now I have to search out all the right -dbgsyms.07:21
StevenKLaserJock: You don't have a PythonHandler for the <Location> ?07:21
LaserJockStevenK: well, I can't get it to take PythonHandler mod_python.publisher07:22
LaserJockPythonHandler <py file> works ok07:23
LaserJockat least I can get something to work07:23
LaserJockbut most of the examples  use mod_python.publisher07:23
imbrandonthat runs it as a cgi then, not with mod_python07:23
StevenKI usually use PythonHandler <module>07:24
LaserJockhmm, then maybe I just don't know what I'm doing07:24
imbrandonLaserJock, you should have something like ......07:24
LaserJockI can't seem to get past  basic Hello World07:24
imbrandon        AddHandler mod_python .py07:24
imbrandon        PythonHandler mod_python.publisher07:24
imbrandon        PythonDebug On07:24
=== cypher1 [n=cypher1@59.92.149.70] has joined #ubuntu-motu
LaserJockimbrandon: no go07:26
=== Fujitsu fixes the other two libdirectfb unmetdeps.
FujitsuLaserJock: That's not very descriptive07:26
LaserJockFujitsu: ok fine, it just shows the code07:27
LaserJockor I get 403s on some of the test .py07:28
FujitsuPut a /somefunction after it, and see if it does anything.07:28
Fujitsu(in the URL, that is)07:29
TheMusoFujitsu: There were only two?07:29
StevenKLaserJock: And look at the error log07:29
LaserJockFujitsu: that gets me a 40407:30
FujitsuTheMuso: Yeah.07:30
TheMusoRight.07:30
FujitsuLaserJock: What if you put a function that exists?07:30
LaserJock40407:31
LaserJockit must be something funky07:31
StevenKAnd what does the error log say?07:31
StevenKIf that doesn't help, kill apache, run it with -X and strace it.07:32
=== robitaille [n=daniel@ubuntu/member/robitaille] has joined #ubuntu-motu
LaserJockStevenK: I don't think I've got that kind of access07:32
LaserJockStevenK: but the error log just says that the files can't be found07:33
=== Fujitsu notes there are a lot of php4 unmetdeps.
HobbseeFujitsu: get fixing :)07:33
StevenKSome of those should just get punted out.07:33
TheMusoThat wouldn't be so easy, as the package code as it is may not support php5.07:33
LaserJockwell, I get it to work with:07:34
LaserJockAddHandler python-program .py07:34
LaserJockPythonHandler mptest07:34
LaserJockand07:35
LaserJockfrom mod_python import apache07:35
LaserJockdef handler(req):07:35
LaserJockbut I have no idea how to do anything interesting with that07:36
LaserJockthe docs move on to    PythonHandler mod_python.publisher07:36
LaserJockthis is why PHP seems much easier07:37
LaserJockbut I suppose once I get it I'll have more fun07:37
FujitsuIt's a whole lot nicer, more flexible, and saner than PHP.07:38
FujitsuAnd it does OOP properly.07:38
imbrandonbut php was designed for the web , python and perl were not, as you are finding out LaserJock ;)07:39
imbrandonbrb07:39
LaserJockyeah07:39
LaserJockwell, I'm giving up for tonight07:39
LaserJockI'll have to talk with cbx33 as I think he got it working and it's his box07:40
poningruhmm07:41
poningruFujitsu: got another one for ya07:41
Fujitsuponingru: Go ahead.07:41
poningrudovecot-common07:41
poningruand inetd07:42
poningruspecifically openbsd-inetd07:42
Fujitsudovecot-common isn't on the list I generated in a fresh chroot 10 minutes ago.07:42
poningruFujitsu: this isnt dependent on libdirectfb07:43
poningruI would file a bug07:43
poningrubut I cant figure it out07:43
Fujitsuponingru: I've got the whole unmetdeps list here.07:43
poningruFujitsu: well the weird thing is dovecot depends on inetd but package doesnt do it07:43
poningruerr package doesnt specify it as such07:44
poningruso if you tried to install dovecot-common without inetd being installed it would throw bunch of errors07:44
poningruand not start07:44
poningruthe funny thing is in ubuntu-desktop inetd is installed by default07:45
poningrubut server cd does not install it by default07:45
=== poningru assumes server cd is -minimal/-standard
Fujitsu-standard, I think.07:45
poningruyeah what I cant figure out is why inetd installs in desktop and not in -standard07:47
=== fraco [n=fraco@213.219.145.169.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu
cypher1can the fix for  bug 74159 done in edgy, or should it be fixed only in feisty ?07:58
UbugtuMalone bug 74159 in netkit-base "Should Recommends update-inetd" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/7415907:58
poningru...08:00
cypher1got it.. update-inetd looks available only in feisty so the fix can be done only feisty and above08:01
poningrucypher1: thanks dude assuming that will fix the dovecot-common issue08:03
=== jaldhar_ [n=jaldhar@c-24-0-153-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu
cypher1poningru, dovecot-common issue ?08:05
poningrusee my convo with Fujitsu 08:08
imbrandonlooks like there is a killer review on /. for feisty ( ALREADY ! )08:08
poningrubasically dovecot-common package throws errors about /etc/inetd.conf missing08:09
poningruimbrandon: lol yeah from osnews08:09
poningrucypher1: dovecot-common should really depend somehow on openbsd-inetd or some inetd but it doesnt08:10
poningruimbrandon: and guess what it isnt the beta she uses its herd508:10
crimsunoh yeah, nothing like git-format-patch at 3:10 AM due to flight cancellation!08:10
imbrandonheya crimsun 08:11
Fujitsuponingru: The beta isn't even out yet...08:11
FujitsuHi crimsun!08:11
imbrandonthere is no beta yet08:11
imbrandonponingru, 08:11
poningruFujitsu: yeah I know08:11
poningruhence me going WTF08:11
imbrandonwhy wtc?08:12
imbrandonerr wtf08:12
poningrubecause she says it is beta08:12
poningruthat she reviewed08:12
poningrubut then she says herd5 was used08:12
imbrandonshe is a reporter, they are notoriously wrong08:12
imbrandonnothing new there08:12
poningrufunny thing she actually is usually pretty acurate08:12
poningrushe even filed the bugs08:12
crimsunwas that eugenia's post?08:12
poningruthat she ran into08:12
poningrucrimsun: yeah08:12
crimsunah, I wonder if that had anything to do with the flurry of ffmpeg and faa[cd] 08:13
Fujitsucrimsun: Heheh, yeah...08:13
Fujitsu`Give me AAC in ffmpeg NOOOOW!'08:13
imbrandonugh, that must have been jdong 08:14
jdongimbrandon: as much as I would love to say that....08:14
jdongimbrandon: and I love you too.08:14
imbrandon:)08:15
jdongfor the record I asked for the risky compile-time option to add AAC in addition to mp3, etc :D08:15
jdongwhich was perfectly reansable08:15
jdongso take that08:15
jdongimbrandon: gimme AAC in amarok NOOOOOW08:15
jdonglol08:15
imbrandonno !08:15
poningruaac is apple drm right?08:16
imbrandonponingru, no08:16
FujitsuSo, does anybody feel like maintaining multiverse versions of ffmpeg and its rdepends?08:16
imbrandonaac is an open codec, apple uses aac + drm08:16
poningruoh08:16
FujitsuAAC has patent issues, I believe.08:16
FujitsuHence its restriction to multiverse.08:16
poningruhuh08:16
imbrandone.g. it would be the equiv of ogg vorbis + drm ;)08:16
poningruhmm08:17
poningruFujitsu: apparently not08:17
poningruhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Audio_Coding#Licensing_and_patents08:17
jdongAAC is just patented08:17
jdongthat is the only issue08:17
Fujitsujdong: That's what I thought.08:17
jdongwell.. currently IIRC the MPEG-4's are personal use OK up to 2010-ish or something08:18
jdongbut RMS consipiracy theorists...08:18
jdongmeh I love my AAC and H.264. bite me.08:18
poningruhttp://www.vialicensing.com/Licensing/MPEG4_FAQ.cfm?faq=6#608:18
FujitsuI'm sure it wasn't all put in multiverse by accident.08:18
imbrandon02:16 < Fujitsu> Hence its restriction to multiverse.08:18
imbrandonerr08:19
imbrandonwrong paste08:19
imbrandonhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Audio_Coding08:19
jdongFujitsu: I have strong impressions that encoding AAC is patent protected...08:19
jdongI think that's even in ffmpeg's LEGAL file08:20
jdongthat there have been real life suits filed because of it08:20
Fujitsujdong: ... I'm not debating that.08:20
poningrujdong: take a look at the wikipedia link I gave08:20
jdongponingru: opening....08:20
Fujitsuponingru: Take a look at Wikipedia's credibility.08:21
FujitsuAnd take a look at where it is in the Ubuntu archive.08:21
poningruFujitsu: take a look at the citation ;)08:21
FujitsuI know which I trust with regards to this.08:21
jdongHowever, a patent license is required for all manufacturers or developers of AAC codecs08:21
jdongmmm.08:21
poningruright08:21
jdonglovely08:21
jdongso technically all FOSS encoders are no-go.08:21
poningruso it can be distributed but only as source08:21
poningruwell you can08:21
jdongponingru: even as source it's sketchy.08:21
poningruright quasi-legal08:21
jdongponingru: quasi-legal as in illegal but nobody's gonna complain.08:22
FujitsuSource should be OK, but this is the law, so anything could happen.08:22
jdongi.e. Gentoo win32codecs fetcher scripts, etc.08:22
poningrujdong: well if this ms v att case goes in ms' direction then that would be legal08:22
jdongponingru: lol, irony, we're rootin on MS08:22
poningruI know right08:22
=== firephoto_ [n=tom@pool-71-120-244-121.spknwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu
imbrandonanyhow rember you all are talkin encoding, not playback ;) playback is fine ;)08:23
jdongimbrandon: no? codec developers need license08:24
jdongcodec = encoder and/or decoder.08:24
jdong:(08:24
crimsunCNR to the rescue!08:24
jdongIt is for this reason FOSS implementations such as FAAC and FAAD are distributed in source form only,08:24
=== crimsun cackles
poningrurofl08:24
jdonglol08:24
jdongso easy no wonder it's #108:25
jdongor is that the wrong slogan? :D08:25
=== Fujitsu ponders calling ops to get rid of insane crimsun.
jdongcrimsun should split into two.08:25
jdonga sane and insane one.08:25
jdonglike jdong and funroll-loops08:25
crimsunoh bah, let me hobble about my cave in peace08:25
imbrandonhehe08:25
jdongpersonally I've found ogg and aac to be pretty similar in quality08:25
jdongexcept ogg can screw up a few kinds of techno pretty badly08:26
jdongogg theora however.... has some ways.08:26
FujitsuArgh, last comment on the /. Feisty story is annoying.08:27
=== Lutin [n=Lutin@ubuntu/member/lutin] has joined #ubuntu-motu
jdongFujitsu: stop reading the comments08:27
jdongread the mars rover thing!08:27
poningruthe waah?08:27
jdonghaha. on victoria's rim.08:27
Fujitsujdong: I did that like 12 hours ago.08:27
jdonglol08:27
jdongFujitsu: did the innuendos jump out? :D08:27
poningruoh right08:27
poningrurofl08:28
poningruhooray for /.08:28
poningrunews for 2nd graders08:28
jdongFujitsu: are you trying to tell me that a computer can run this Ubuntu thing without Windows?08:28
jdongno drivers, no boot floppy?08:28
jdongcheck your assumptions first, man.08:28
poningrujdong: you read that zdnet thing too?08:29
imbrandonanyone who fights over codecs should diaf imho, its the ricer community for music, hell fm radio sounds good enough for millions everyday ;)08:29
poningrubwhahahah08:29
jdongponingru: I think we all did :)08:29
Fujitsujdong: I read that about 12 hours ago, too :P08:29
jdongimbrandon: I'm not gonna waste my time quibbling over intricate details, but order-of-magnitude differences are worth a bit of time to evaluate, IMO08:30
FujitsuAs everybody well knows, my computer couldn't live without these critical Windows services.08:30
jdongFujitsu: heh be glad Xgl won't be complained about as abandonware ;-)08:30
TheMusoIf I were world dictator, I would decree that everybody *MUST* use Flac.08:31
jdongand Fujitsu, Microsoft spent 9 billion dollars making Vista, and you're saying this free gnu thing that popped up overnight can replace the windows?08:31
FujitsuTheMuso: I have to agree with you there.08:31
jdongTheMuso: buy me a new terabyte SAN first.08:31
Fujitsujdong: I loved that line in particular.08:31
poningruTheMuso: I think I would be leader in the revolution that ends your dictatorship08:31
=== jdong is mostly content with his 112-128kbit aac's
FujitsuEw, AAC.08:31
jdongone day RMS is gonna come assault me.08:32
Fujitsujdong: You're just sick.08:32
jdongFujitsu: oh suck it up :P08:32
jdongFujitsu: they're in an ogg container though ;-)08:32
jdongFujitsu: to annoy the crap outta my purist friends.08:32
jdongmean, no?08:32
FujitsuUrgh...08:33
=== Fujitsu exits the room and vomits.
FujitsuSo wrong...08:33
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jdonglol08:33
=== Fujitsu kicks gnucash and gnomesword for FTBFSing.
TheMusoFujitsu: I'll look at gnomesword, as I uploaded it if you like.08:35
FujitsuTheMuso: I'm looking at it now.08:35
TheMusobuilt fine here08:35
FujitsuSome libgnomeprint headers missing, it seems.08:35
TheMusoum what version?08:35
TheMusoof gnomesword08:36
Fujitsu2.2.0-108:36
TheMusoactually the upload I did hasn't been published yet.08:36
FujitsuArgh, it's probably in unapproved.08:36
FujitsuIt'd be really nice if we could see what was in there.08:37
TheMusoDamn right.08:37
TheMusoFujitsu: According to the build page, all successfully built08:37
TheMusoor do you mean its not installing08:37
FujitsuIt was uninstallable, but a rebuild fixes that.08:38
TheMusoright08:38
FujitsuIt doesn't build in a Feisty pbuilder, due to missing headers.08:38
TheMusoright08:39
TheMusoYou know, when libs are changed like that, I reckon lp should check for packages depending on the lib, and just rebuild them.08:39
FujitsuThat would be nice, yeah.08:40
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imbrandon...09:28
Fujitsuimbrandon: ?09:28
imbrandonFujitsu, ?09:28
imbrandonheh09:28
=== Fujitsu discovers the origin of the `ClamAV isn't being maintained' mail during an adventure in the fora.
imbrandonheh09:29
FujitsuIt came from the fora, which is why it's so crazy.09:30
=== jdong eyes Fujitsu
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Fujitsujdong: Most of the forum people are crazy, admit it.09:33
jdongFujitsu: and a merry christmas to you too.09:33
FujitsuWhy thankyou.09:34
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imbrandoni think the spacebar should be removed from all forum users keyboards , kthxbye09:35
poningrurofl09:41
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imbrandonwinemerge kdelibs10:16
imbrandonerm10:16
jdongPassword:10:17
man-diError: Operation Failed10:17
imbrandonKe)kcsae*sdfJNsd710:17
imbrandoni can see jdong trying to ssh to my box now and use that ;)10:18
jussi01lol10:18
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lupine_85hey people11:06
lupine_85thought i'd pop in and apologise for the whole fast-tracking thing... I realise it's not exactly fair on the people who've actually walked the walk11:08
imbrandon?11:08
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lupine_85sabdfl wants to turn me and pricechild into motu's post-haste11:09
imbrandon!?!11:09
lupine_85yeah, I know11:09
imbrandonwhere did mark say this?11:09
lupine_85on #beryl-dev, then in a mail to MOTU council council11:10
imbrandonthe MOTU process isnt that long if you have the qualifications, it only takes one email and 1 - 2 week(s)11:10
lupine_85apparently to get beryl uploaded "at first"11:10
imbrandonzomg i fixed those packages how many times ? now this ? wtf11:11
lupine_85heh, I don't even /use/ ubuntu any more ;)11:11
imbrandon...11:11
TheMusoWOw the devs are working today?11:12
imbrandoni am ? why wouldent they ?11:13
TheMusoimbrandon: They don't normally do so on the weekend11:13
imbrandoni see marks letter to the MC lupine_85 , nothing about fast tracking, he only sugested that you apply11:14
imbrandonjust as anyone else11:14
imbrandonTheMuso, i guess some dont ( the paid ones ) but not all core-dev is paid :)11:15
TheMusoimbrandon: I know that.11:15
imbrandonlupine_85, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2007-March/000050.html11:15
TheMusoBut people like cjwatson and mithrandir are.11:15
imbrandonnothing about fast tracking there11:15
imbrandonTheMuso, maybe release time ;)11:15
TheMusotrue that.11:16
TheMusoI was just commenting that one doesn't usually see them around.11:16
imbrandonhehe yea11:17
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lupine_85imbrandon: hmm. That's not the email I got... the subject was "Fast-track mentoring for lupine_85 and pricechild" To:  motu-council@lists.ubuntu.com11:17
imbrandonlupine_85, look for your self, its an open list https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2007-March/thread.html#4511:19
lupine_85mm, I did.... which is why it's strang11:20
lupine_85...e11:20
imbrandon /msg sabdfl per your email to the MC about restricted vs moderated teams, that was a TB decision , here is the e-mail from mdz about it https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2007-March/000045.html11:20
imbrandoncrap11:20
imbrandoni hate this fskin keyboard11:21
lupine_85it was To: motu-council & cc: me, pricechild & mdz ~midnight. maybe it's not reached the ML yet11:21
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sabdfl_MMA_: around?11:24
imbrandonsabdfl, its 5:30 am his time, might still be asleep, but i can ring him if its semi-urgent11:27
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ajmitchevening11:44
imbrandonheya ajmitch 11:44
TheMusoHey ajmitch.11:44
ajmitchgood to see sabdfl around :)11:50
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enycweep11:50
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sabdflnot too urgent, just wanted to see. thanks imbrandon11:52
enycmeep even ;-)11:52
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=== enyc wonders when the usual pile of impatient-for-next-release people will turn-up ;-)
imbrandonajmitch, whoohoo today is payday , so i'm gonna get those adapters for the aurora buildd ( sata to ide ) later11:53
ajmitchyay11:53
enycSATA > PATA bridge devices?11:54
imbrandonyea11:54
enycwhy you use those etc.?11:54
imbrandonthe buildd has all pci slots used by sata controlers , and we need more hdd's ;)11:54
enyc;-)11:54
imbrandonso 4x more devices with those :)11:55
=== enyc remembers attaching hdds by drilling extra holes in the case ;-)
enycnot enough bays ;-)11:55
imbrandonwell this is a 2u case so i can put 8 total11:55
=== enyc done many hardware-hacks lol
FujitsuI had some HDDs taped into the server at home a year or so back :-/11:56
enycFujitsu: hrrm not well heatsinked then?11:56
imbrandonheh11:56
FujitsuGah, gnome-panel keeps restarting on upgrades.11:56
enycFujitsu: funny... you sound like a broken harddisk to me.... ive known haany many broken fujitsu hdds11:56
Fujitsuenyc: They worked fine.11:56
Fujitsuenyc: That's what I'm named after, funnily enough.11:56
imbrandonyea i have burned up MANY MANY Fujitsu drives11:57
FujitsuA broken Fujitsu 10.4GB HDD.11:57
enycFujitsu: ;-)11:57
imbrandonback in a bit, smoke time while i wait for qt4.2.2 to compile on XP11:58
=== ajmitch should go & sleep now
FujitsuNight ajmitch.11:58
imbrandongnight ajmitch 11:58
=== enyc cats a load af z's and Z's to a buffer and hatnds them to ajmitch
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enycseem to like eating all the RAM11:59
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=== proppy hugs dholbach
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giskardhello *01:21
Hobbseeheya giskard 01:22
FujitsuHey giskard.01:22
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imbrandongrep '<a href="https://launchpad.net/~' /tmp/all.html | cut -f 2 -d '~' | cut -f 1 -d '"' | grep -v '/' | sort | uniq03:18
imbrandonerrr03:18
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imbrandoni'm gonna fix this damn paste key03:18
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vilhi, I have a question about UVF exception, can anyone help me?04:31
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sistpotyhi folks04:33
ScottKhi sistpoty04:42
sistpotyhi ScottK04:42
geserHi sistpoty04:42
sistpotyHi geser04:42
geservil: just ask04:42
ScottKsistpoty: I kicked off the discussion you wanted on ubuntu-motu.  It'll be interesting to see where this goes.04:43
phanaticScottK: i fully agree with your points04:44
sistpotyScottK: yay, thanks. nice reply to sabdfl's mail... I must admit that I'm not too comfortable with the suggestion as well04:44
ScottKThanks.04:44
sabdflhi folks04:44
ScottKHi.04:44
sistpotyhi sabdfl04:44
geserHi04:44
sabdfli think we want to maintain really open doors04:44
sabdfli'm disappointed that upstreams have got as far as REVU then given up04:45
sabdflupstreams who want to see their packages loved in ubuntu should find us more welcoming!04:45
sabdflbalance that with the need to build a cohesive community04:45
=== ScottK is new here during the Feisty development cycle and didn't find it that hard. I thought it was a welcoming, nurturing environment.
sabdfland strong process / practices / principles04:45
sabdfli think a good approach is to say "you can upload, but just those packages"04:46
sabdfland "you need to collaborate with motu and demonstrate you have that ability before you can upload more widely"04:46
sabdflthat protects the integrity of the MOTU team04:46
sistpotysabdfl: having upstream packaging for ubuntu is indeed a good thing. But I fear that creating a side-route to motu-ship will demotivate ppl. who went through the hard way04:47
ScottKsabdfl: What problem are you trying to solve?  My experience is that it only takes a day or two to get a good package uploaded.04:47
sabdflsistpoty: that's why we have to differentiate between "limited upload" and MOTU04:47
sabdfli'm asking that we create a process for fast-track with limited upload04:47
sabdfli will get LP to support this so we can enforce it, initially we would need to do it on tryst04:47
sabdflerrr04:47
sabdfltrust04:47
sabdfli do enough on tryst already!04:48
sabdflScottK: trying to connect upstreams more directly with their packages in ubuntu04:48
geserthere are already two beryl packages in universe. Do somebody know why the rest didn't get it?04:48
sistpotyhm... interesting... iirc there have been some suggestion for s.th. like this on debian side as well, because the nm process is really long04:48
sabdflgeser: that's exactly the right question to be asking!04:49
geserI catched somewhere (Debian perhaps) that beryl had licensing problems which should be resolved with beryl 2.004:49
ScottKYes, but on Debian, they seem to be moving to group maintenance like Universe is now.  I don't use Debian, but I'm on the Python modules team and can get stuff reviewed and uploaded through mentors much like I do here through REVU.04:49
ScottKsabdfl: I'm the upstream for several of the packages I've brought here through the REVU process and I feel plenty connected.04:50
sistpotysorry, offline right now... my family just arrived at my door... bbl04:51
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ScottKsabdfl: Upon reflection, I believe that your proposal will reduce upstream connection to Ubuntu, not increase it.04:51
sabdflScottK: how is that?04:52
ScottKBy giving people limited upload rights for the packages they are concerned about, they can get their stuff into Ubuntu without any community involvement.04:52
ScottKIn the long run, they are less connected to the community, not more.04:52
ScottKThere's no joining incentive.04:52
ScottKYou get more of their stuff into Ubuntu, but they have no need to be connected to the community.04:53
ScottKHow committed are they going to be to maintaining these packages then?04:53
ScottKWho's going to get stuck with it?04:53
sabdflgood point04:53
sabdflwe could connect that upload right to continued participation in the community04:54
sabdfltake the beryl guys04:54
sabdflit's not quinn here, but lupine_85 and pricechild04:54
sabdflthey are specifically working on *ubuntu* packages04:54
sabdflbut not in ubuntu04:54
sabdfltheir primary interest is in beryl 04:54
sabdflfor them, ubuntu is a way to get wider testing and insight04:54
ScottKOK.  So they upload them to REVU and two MOTU's look at them.  If they're good, then they go in.  How hard is that?04:54
sabdflof course, we want them to understand how they fit in04:54
sabdflScottK: it creates an opportunity for the ball to be dropped04:55
geserI also fear that people get to focused on their packages and ignore the rest and don't try to become real motus04:55
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sabdfli think some percentage of the upstreams who do this will infact want to get more involved04:55
ScottKI understand where they come from.  I'm here primarily because of my interest in SPF (Sender Policy Framework), but I've become a part of the community and done stuff to help the greater good.04:55
sabdfland that's great04:55
sabdflthose are the motu's and future -core-devs04:55
sabdflScottK: you are in that percentage04:55
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sabdflbut i fear other upstreams have come and gone, and that's a problem i would like to solve04:56
ScottKsabdfl: It sounds like the real problem you are trying to solve is not enough MOTUs to review packages.04:56
sabdflso, three tiers, as it were04:56
sabdfl - "single package focus"04:56
sabdfl - "motu"04:56
sabdfl - "core-dev"04:56
sabdflScottK: it's deeper than that04:56
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sabdflas soon as i have to get my work THROUGH someone else, there is an opportunity for me to feel disenfranchised04:57
jlzoeffie_jayx, hi.. 04:57
sabdflwe need to balance that with the sense of rigour and quality that MOTU enforces04:57
sabdflbut i believe in giving people a chance to get it right04:57
sabdflespecially early in a release cycle04:57
ScottKOTOH, if I take my work to someone else and they bless it as a good thing, I get the Geek accolade thing too.04:57
sabdflthat's true - both are valuable, i'm not trying to lessen the benefits of review and collaboration04:57
sabdfli'm trying to open the INITIAL door a bit wider04:58
ScottKWhat technical skills as a packager does a MOTU need that your tier one single package does not?04:58
geserWhen upstream can upload directly to universe doesn't it extend the divergence to/from Debian?04:58
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sabdflMOTU would need a broader sense of integration between packages04:58
sabdflpolicy and direction of the distro as a whole04:58
sabdflrather than just one piece of it04:58
sabdfl"what is the next release going to look like, and how do all these threads combine to make that happen"04:58
sabdflas opposed to "here's a new upstream release of Foo"04:59
sabdflthose two are slightly in tension04:59
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sabdflbut we need to acknowledge both and create processes for both04:59
ScottKPerhaps a middle ground would be to go through REVU for NEW packages and then give limited rights for updates?04:59
sabdflScottK: that would be fine, yes05:00
sabdflin other words "prove you can produce a first cut that is OK"05:00
sabdflfor packages where there is an existing package, that's not so easy05:00
ScottKPerhaps do that up to UVF and then after UVF, it needs a MOTU ack.05:00
sabdflyes, that could be done too05:00
ScottKBut if you do this, then you need to create general criteria and not have this be the special "Beryl exception".05:01
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sabdfli agree - i ampushing for Beryl because I think we urgently need it in *main*05:01
ScottKFrankly, MOTU is probably the most open technical forum I've run across.  More friendly is not needed.05:02
sabdfli'm trying to arrange that desktop-effects let you choose between beryl and compiz05:02
ScottKsabdfl: Then maybe put it in main directly and make it not a MOTU problem?05:02
sabdflso we can get wider testing of both05:02
sabdflin this case we can, yes05:05
ScottKsabdfl: I also think this points to a general need for something like Debian Experimental.  This came up a few days ago in the discussion about KDE4 packages.05:05
gesercan really a upstream author be add good packager without guidance?05:05
=== lupine_85 pokes his head up
sabdflgeser: yes05:06
lupine_85the packages in ubuntu.beryl-project.org work - and they're fairly well-thought-out - the main question to me, aside from ubuntu integration tweaks, is whether there are any ubuntu policies they violate that I don't know about ;)05:06
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sabdflScottK: we can bypass MOTU, but i think it's important that we get this straight for future05:07
imbrandonwhoa , sorry just steped back in, umm it only takes them sending an email to the MC and 3 ppl saying "yes" ? i dont feel that is hard, much easier then when i went infront of the TB for MOTU and again for Core-Dev05:07
ScottKPersonally, I think this approach has long term social risks for Universe and I would encourage you to step back and make sure you've conciously accepted the risk.05:07
ScottKIMO getting into Universe is easy enough for anyone that makes an effort.05:08
sabdfli would agree, but i've seen several cases where upstreams have felt disenfranchised05:08
Lutinimbrandon: not quite sure about that05:09
sabdflthey feel there's a tight group here that all know each other, and that to be effective here they have to "crack the nod"05:09
sabdflwe trust these guys deeply anyway - we ship their code!05:09
imbrandonsabdfl, no offence, but did you see how much me and ajmitch and crimsun and others had to whip the beryl packages into shape for them even in their svn, even small things like versioning conflicts , lupine_85 , Amaranth , and a few others on the team already work closely with some of us, i would be happy to mentor them into the week long process of becomming a full MOTU but i'm not at all for side stepping the process 05:10
Amaranthwhoa whoa, don't include me in there :)05:11
gesersabdfl: I confess that a upstream can get a good packager but only after a time. I've doubt he will be a good packager from the beginning (if he hadn't done packages in some inofficial repo)05:11
sabdflfolks, we need to accept that something failed05:11
imbrandonAmaranth, you did back in the day ( UDS timefremae )05:11
sabdflsix months ago we wanted beryl in ubuntu05:11
sabdflnow, there are good packages, but they are not in ubuntu?05:11
Amaranthimbrandon: yeah, never really did anything with that05:12
Amaranthimbrandon: i work on compiz now :)05:12
sabdflwe need to ask, where did that fall down?05:12
lupine_85sabdfl: what failed is that nobody told me that nobody else was packaging them ;)05:12
lupine_85so a lack of communication05:12
sabdfland the best way to ensure communication is to have a direct role for upstreams in ubuntu05:12
imbrandonsabdfl, sabdfl what failed was a lack of communication, not the fact there wasent sponsors or packagers05:12
sabdflimbrandon: in this case, perhaps, but again i'm looking to find a way to get upstreams more directly connected05:13
imbrandoninfact if you look at the archives about 2 months ago i made the first beryl upload for them, it had issues with copyright that needed addressed , since then there has been little word "officialy"05:13
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lupine_85imbrandon: on the contrary, there was a big push. all-our-own artwork became a blocker for 0.2, in fact05:14
imbrandonsabdfl, i wholey agree, but i dont think "fast tracking" someone for one package or set of packages when they havent walked the walk is ummm silly05:14
imbrandonbetter to fix the problem, not create a new one05:15
Amaranthlupine_85: did anyone ever come here and say "we've fixed the copyright problems, here are some new tarballs"?05:15
imbrandonlupine_85, i know, but between my uploads and 0.2 was  a LONG pause05:15
sabdflimbrandon: i disagree - in this case the person has provably produced packages which are the only way an ubuntu person can actually get the software05:15
sabdflexcept that to do so, the ubuntu user has to go and find the repo, add the repo to sources.list, add a gpg key that they need to trust...05:16
sabdflthat's silly05:16
sabdfllet's (a) get those packages in ubuntu and (b) let the people who produce them get direct feedback from users, as well as directly improve the packages05:16
imbrandonsabdfl, right only after me ajmitch geser and crimsun just to name the ones of my head that "fixed" them , ask quinn05:16
imbrandonsure, lets get them in05:17
imbrandonhehe05:17
imbrandoni'm all for that 10000000%05:17
ScottKIt seems odd to me to argue that it's to hard to get packages approved after submission when the packages have never been submitted.05:17
imbrandonbut ....05:17
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sabdflthis is going to result in better, faster evolution of free software05:17
imbrandonone sec phone05:17
imbrandonsorry05:17
sabdflimbrandon: i appreciate that you and others helped to produce those packages, but then communication broke down05:17
sabdfllet's make sure that does not happen in future!05:17
geserhttp://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2007/02/msg00382.html mentions some lincense problems with beryl for Debian. Are these problems resolved now?05:18
sabdflwe will shortly have the PPA facility, which will allow us to mentor people directly using LP builds, just not uploading direct to universe05:18
lupine_85geser: yep05:18
sabdflas fast as possible we want those packages to go into the mainline so they get wide testing05:19
sabdflwe already ship tango icons05:19
sabdflthat's not an issue for us05:19
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geserlupine_85: did these problems prevent an inclusion into universe? or were there any other problems?05:19
TomaszDcan anyone tell me when is restricted-manager going to be available for translation? I can't find the template in rosetta05:19
TomaszDoops, wrong channel :)05:20
imbrandonok back sorry, yes lets get them in there, i'm willing to doso today if wanted, but lets do this the normal way with me and geser sponsoring them , and let the MOTU processes take their run as far as MOTUship05:20
imbrandonsabdfl, ^^05:20
imbrandoni mean honestly, the MOTU process is only a week, IF that05:21
geserespecially since it doesn't take that long to become a MOTU. I became from nom-member to MOTU in something like 4-5 months.05:21
imbrandonmost of the time shorter, if there is proven experince as in these two cases05:21
AmaranthI'd say that the license issues have _not_ been fixed05:21
Lamegothat's not a long time on open source terms :P ?05:21
Amaranthunless the beryl developers have assigned most of their work on beryl-core to Novell and released it under the MIT license05:22
geserto became a DD you need something like 1-2 years05:22
Lamegothat's why releases take so long :P05:22
lupine_85geser: debian doesn't have universe... ;) but AFAIK tango and some license headers in source were the main issues05:23
lupine_85there are possibly some headers that still aren't perfect, but tango is completely sorted (and not an issue for ubuntu anyway). 05:23
imbrandonlupine_85, still i became a core-dev inside of 4 months from my first upload ( almost a year ago now hehehe )05:23
geserLamego: I haven't had problems to get uploads sponsors as non-MOTU. crimsun only needed a few minutes to some hours to upload it for me.05:24
lupine_85imbrandon: I started the process. Honestly I did. I guess I picked the wrong package ;)05:24
imbrandonlupine_85, sure , lets get those headers worked out and get this in05:24
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Lamegobtw, could someone review the  gnome-subtitles package in REVU ?05:24
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imbrandonlupine_85, are you a native english speaker? not that i care but i was going to offer to get on a conf call with you ( my dime ) and we can get this worked out quickly 05:25
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AmaranthI'm looking at files the beryl guys have obviously changed and they still only have the compiz header05:25
sabdflok, in this case i;m happy everyone wants to get the packages straight in05:25
sabdfllet's solve that first05:25
lupine_85imbrandon: native english, yes05:25
Amaranthwhich says david reveman is the author, novell owns the copyright, and it's MIT licensed05:25
sabdflseparately, let's figure out the parameters for getting upstreams direct access to their packages in ubuntu05:25
imbrandonsabdfl, yup, i'm all for doing that ( and in 30 minutes i have the next 4 days off from "work" ) but it seems at a glance we still have lic issues that keybuk mentioned a few months ago05:26
imbrandonwe need to get that right first05:26
Lamegogeser, I was refering to Debain disto releases, not the MOTU releases ;)05:26
imbrandonsabdfl, +5 05:26
lupine_85imbrandon: I've got a fortnight with nothing to do ;)05:26
Lamegoerm, Debian05:26
imbrandonis the teamspeak server still up sabdfl ?05:27
Amaranthand, hey, while we're all here talking about license problems... :)05:27
lupine_85so, at the moment it seems .c files have the Novell header, but packages have an AUTHORS and COPYING that's up to date05:27
Amaranthcan someone review the sponsor the upload of gnome-compiz-manager in revu?05:27
Amaranththe one that got uploaded had license issues, new one should fix them05:28
imbrandonlupine_85, good we can work with that, at leaste its a start05:28
imbrandonlupine_85, what about the availibility of pricechild ? you know?05:28
sabdflimbrandon: not sure05:28
lupine_85PriceChild is on the train home right now05:28
imbrandonok05:28
lupine_85Dunno when he'll be in05:29
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sabdflcool! thanks for working on this05:29
imbrandonnp, its not ready yet, but we'll see if we can whip it into shape today05:29
lupine_85btw sabdfl, sorry to have to turn you down for UDS but studies come first ;)05:30
geserAmaranth: it's already upload and sitting now in the NEW queue: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+queue?queue_state=0&queue_text=gnome05:30
sabdfllupine_85: fairy nuff05:30
imbrandonlupine_85, ok lets do this, i will be at my home office in 1.5 hours, if geser ( and sabdfl if wanted but i dont see why ) and you want , we'll either a) get on a conf call on my dime , or b) use the TS voip and get this rolling this afternoon05:30
Amaranthgeser: pretty sure that's the one that had license issues05:31
lupine_85I can do VoIP :)05:31
sabdfli have a conf facility too we can use05:31
sabdflping me on IRC05:31
imbrandonok05:31
Amaranthgeser: that's why it's still sitting after a month, according to seb12805:31
imbrandonsounds great05:31
imbrandonyea , /me might not make it to spain this time, but i'll be in portland and boston ;)05:31
geserAmaranth: ah, are you aware that universe is now in FF? or doesn't it apply to this package?05:32
imbrandonanyhow ok, i'm gonna finish my work work and i'll ping you lupine_85 when i get to my home office05:32
Amaranthgeser: dunno, seb128 told me to get it reviewed and uploaded05:32
lupine_85ok, no worries. hopefully PriceChild will be around then05:32
imbrandonmeantime if you would see about those .c/.h headers05:33
imbrandonthats one less thing to worry about05:33
lupine_85sure... so just replace with the GPL header & add the contents of AUTHORS to the bottom?05:33
geserAmaranth: as new packages don't get into universe till release, I'd guess most review isn't top on most people's lists05:33
sladenlupine_85: is that legally okay to do;  is it also available under the GPL license (even if the headers don't currently say so?)05:34
lupine_85sladen: compiz was licensed under MIT05:34
lupine_85Beryl clobbered it to GPL05:34
sladenlupine_85: gotcha.  05:35
Amaranthand now it sounds like they want to go back to MIT, fun all around :)05:35
lupine_85heh, yeah05:35
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lupine_85got to love licensing05:35
sladenremember the "The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be05:35
sladenincluded in all copies or substantial portions of the Software."05:35
sladenmoo, gah, excessively complicated05:36
lupine_85Yeah, probably why the GPL header wasn't added in the first place - we can't remove that one05:36
sladendid Beryl leave any evidence of the MIT copyright, or just paste the GPL in over the to?05:36
lupine_85so add GPL to the bottom of it?05:36
lupine_85sladen: the header currently in the files is "permission to use, coy, m05:37
lupine_85 * Permission to use, copy, modify, distribute, and sell this software05:37
lupine_85 * and its documentation for any purpose is hereby granted05:37
lupine_85I'm thinking after the huge caps, the GPL license05:38
sladenso there should be   (C) Copyright foobar, 2005;  then Permission to use...;05:38
lupine_85sladen: yep, 05:38
lupine_85ah05:38
sladenyup, okay, do that.  And if anyone complainins we can enquire what they'd /like/ us to do :)05:38
lupine_85Copyright notice in all copies; permission notice in supporting documentation05:39
lupine_85So as long as we keep the copyright (c) 2005 novell, we can move the rest into an "upstream copyright" file?05:39
lupine_85IANAL, at all ;)05:40
sladenI think the secret is to do it, and wait until somebody suggests anything better, yes05:41
lupine_85Hmm. Well, for emerald (based on MIT g-w-d), copyright novell was kept, and the MIT/Novell header removed05:42
sladendo that then05:42
sladenthe one definte is not to remove the copyright notice05:42
lupine_85yeah, I know for a fact that davidr doesn't have a problem with that particular style05:42
lupine_85ok... time for a 50-line sed script ;)05:42
sladenthat's one way05:43
lupine_85one way, or the best way? ;)05:43
sabdflsed-meister in the house05:49
imbrandonheh05:54
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jabraany developers around ?06:00
geserjabra: sure06:00
imbrandonjup06:00
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jabrageser: I have a package that is in Debian, there was a bug and I recently made a fix for it and had it accepted into the release. Will it be automatically updated for feisty ?06:02
geserjabra: not until requested06:02
geserjabra: which package is it?06:02
jabraok how can I request it06:02
jabraone sec i'll get you the info06:03
jabrahttp://people.debian.org/~terpstra/message/20070316.013319.8d7b6948.en.html06:04
jabrapackage is called pbnj06:04
jabrahttp://packages.qa.debian.org/p/pbnj.html06:04
jabra2.04-2 was accepted into testing for debian, thus I just wanted to make sure it was accepted into feisty06:05
imbrandonlupine_85 , sladen , sabdfl , geser : just fyi might make sure these issues are taken care of also, this was from the last upload , http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/10778/ and http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/10779/06:06
jabrageser: let me know if you need anymore information06:06
sabdflthanks imbrandon06:07
geserjabra: I've filed just a sync request as bug #9315006:07
UbugtuMalone bug 93150 in pbnj "[Sync Request]  Sync pbnj (2.04-2) from Debian unstable (main)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/9315006:07
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MagnusRHi! I have a question about giving a version number to a package. I will try to package apparmor for ubuntu. Unfortunately, they seems not to have any real version numbers and I must use the latest from their subversion archive, how do I give my packages a version number?06:08
jabracool thanks06:08
imbrandonMagnusR, normaly something like apparmor_<lastversion>+svn<date>06:09
imbrandonor similar06:09
jabratecnically it is already in etch so you may want to note that too06:09
jabrageser: ^06:09
jabraif anyone has any concern06:09
imbrandonok, headed to home, back in a few minutes ( ~30 to 45 )06:09
jdongMagnusR: I've seen 0.0.0~svn2007010203, 0.0.0-svn, 0.0.0+svn06:09
imbrandonyou dont want to use -06:09
jabrageser: thanks for your help06:10
geserjabra: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SyncRequestProcess for a description of the process06:10
MagnusRimbrandon, jdong: ok thanks. 06:10
imbrandonit will cause upgrade problems if say 1.0+svn<date> releases then 1.0 regualrly and you use a dash instread of + or ~06:10
imbrandonok really afk, back in a few06:11
jabrak06:11
jabraso the sync will be automatic now ?06:11
geserjabra: due to the current state of feisty development there are also additional restrictions which pbnj passes06:12
MagnusRA related question: Normaly I run dh-make on a tar file. In this case I do not have a tar file, What is smartest way; create a tar file or use another tool?06:12
jabraok 06:12
geserjabra: more or less, an archive admin needs to process it at start a script or something like that06:12
jabraok06:13
joejaxxhello jabra :)06:14
jabrahi06:14
joejaxxhow is pbnj coming along?06:15
jabracoming 06:16
jabraI just fixed a bug in debian and I'm getting the fix into feisty06:16
jabrathere was a dep missing from the package06:16
joejaxxjabra: ah ok nice06:18
jabrawell not really but nice that I received the bug report and am gettin it fixed before both releases06:19
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lupine_85ah, there you are06:29
lupine_85PriceChild: imbrandon is going to help us out with getting beryl up to scratch06:29
PriceChild:)06:29
lupine_85s/he'll be back in a little bit06:30
PriceChildOk06:30
lupine_85in the meantime, I'm trying to get a 40-line sed script working, lol06:30
PriceChild:)06:30
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sabdfllet me know if we need a voice call today06:45
lupine_85sabdfl: we're waiting on imbrandon :)06:46
sabdflok06:47
bluefoxicyhmm06:51
bluefoxicyis universe in charge of Xen?06:52
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geserbluefoxicy: afaik zul takes care of xen06:52
bluefoxicynods06:52
bluefoxicyI'm curious if there's any real effort there to get Ubuntu focused on Xen (pretty much kernel/installer/grub work I think...)06:53
Laser_awaybluefoxicy: zul has been doing that06:54
bluefoxicyPersonally my ideal world is Linus puts Xen in mainline and everything default installs as a Xen Dom0 with non-Xen installs being "special" but I'm kinda nuts :P06:54
ivoksbluefoxicy: luckily, kvm is already in main :)06:54
ivoksbluefoxicy: and works better than xen in my case :D06:54
bluefoxicyivoks:  yes :)  But I don't have hardware.06:54
ivoksonly thing that doesn't work with kvm is ubuntu :)06:55
ivokswindows works, redhat too, but ubuntu... :D06:55
jabrageser: should I nominate the bug for the feisty release ?06:55
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bluefoxicyivoks:  i call that a kvm bug.06:55
ivoksbluefoxicy: well, hard to tell06:56
bluefoxicyunless Ubuntu is probing and looking at KVM like "I don't want this" it shouldn't break06:56
bluefoxicythe point was to make unaltered OSes work :P06:56
geserjabra: no hurry, it's still time to the release06:56
ivoksbluefoxicy: problem is with splash image on 'booting from cd'06:57
ivoksbluefoxicy: it crashes kvm :/06:57
geserjabra: archive days are three times a week (mon, wed, fri) when one of the archive admins goes through the bugs for the archive admin team06:58
ivoksanyway... take care...06:58
jabraah ok cool06:58
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jabraso it if it isn't done by like thursday next week then i'll nominate it 06:58
jabrasound good ?06:59
phaidroshow to find out about a package (wired-0.5) which is said (in the forums) on the way to feisty?06:59
geserjabra: afaik nomitations are used for packages in main and not universe07:00
jabraah ok07:01
geserjabra: but you could try to bribe an archive admin to process the sync :)07:01
jabrayou mean to get pbnj into main ?07:01
phaidrosis launchpad the place to look for? cannot find the package there.. 07:01
geserto get it synced from Debian07:01
LaserJockphaidros: it could be in the NEW queue07:02
jabrawell i'm sure it will happen 07:02
phaidrosLaserJock: as I dunno the structure: where in the NEW qeueue?07:02
jabraif it doesn't happen then i'll jump into irc and see if I can find an admin or something07:02
phaidross/in/is/07:02
geserphaidros: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+queue07:03
LaserJockphaidros: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+queue?queue_state=0&queue_text=wired07:03
LaserJockphaidros: that means it's waiting for an archive admin to approve it. I'm not positive it will be for Feisty but it's at least in the queue07:04
phaidrosso, how could I test it and recommend as working? (in gentoo small branches like gentoo-osx such things where done by mailinglist)?07:05
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joejaxxwelcome back07:08
imbrandonheya joejaxx 07:08
joejaxxhello imbrandon 07:09
imbrandonheard your gonna make it to spain ;)07:09
jussi01can someone tell me how to make pbuilder use packages that arent in the repos but are dependencies?07:09
astinusimbrandon: Now all you need is good weather!07:09
imbrandonastinus, ;)07:09
joejaxximbrandon: :)07:10
imbrandonjussi01, you can use "pbuilder login --save-after-login" then install them07:10
lupine_85hey imbrandon07:10
imbrandonbut that will taint your pbuilder base, so back it up07:10
lupine_85PriceChild is going to be back in ~20 minutes07:10
imbrandon( e.g. base.tar.gz )07:10
jussi01ok, thanks imbrandon 07:10
imbrandonlupine_85, ok no hurries, i will be here all afternoon07:10
lupine_85ok :)07:11
lupine_85I'm going through beryl-core licensing right now... what a mess, in places07:11
lupine_85and sed didn'ty want to be my friend :'(07:11
imbrandonhaha yea07:11
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astinusimbrandon: Could I steal a couple minutes of your time later?07:12
imbrandonastinus, sure07:12
lupine_85good news, a lot of the others aren't anywhere near as bad07:12
astinusimbrandon: /msg?07:12
Seveasstgraber, love that desktop background, can you mail it to me :)07:12
stgraberSeveas: of course07:13
Seveasthanks! dennis@u.c07:13
imbrandonlupine_85, join #beryl-fasttrack ( also geser pricechild and anyone else on this sprint )07:13
imbrandonso we dont clutter here any more than needed07:13
lupine_85ok07:13
imbrandonmoins Seveas 07:13
Seveasola imbrandon 07:13
blackskad#beryl-fasttrack07:14
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imbrandonSeveas, fwiw that background is on art.ubuntu.com iirc07:18
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Seveasimbrandon, you know I'm lazy :)07:19
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imbrandon;)07:19
imbrandonastinus, yes thats fine07:20
imbrandonastinus, or here, or jabber or email07:20
imbrandonastinus, i'm easy07:20
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jussi01imbrandon, sorry to bother further, how do I get to my files from root in pbuilder?07:27
imbrandonjussi01, use bindmount ( man pbuilder for a howto )07:28
imbrandonand no worries , i dont mind being bothered sometimes ;)07:28
jussi01thanks a million07:28
geserjussi01: or copy them simply from outside the pbuilder into the pbuilder (see /var/cache/pbuilder/build/)07:29
jussi01ahh, great!!07:30
jussi01thanks07:30
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tsmithewhy oh why oh why07:42
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LaserJocktsmithe: that's what I was thinking ;-)07:49
tsmitheLaserJock, you going to uds-sevilla?07:49
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LaserJocktsmithe: some of it probably07:51
tsmithelucky you07:51
tsmithei had to turn down sponsorship07:51
LaserJockI probably should but I'll work it out ;-)07:51
tsmithewell, /me is only 15. don't think family would be comfortable with it07:52
LaserJockI have to get back early becuase of my little brother's wedding07:52
tsmithe:)07:52
LaserJockah07:52
LaserJockyeah, I guess that's at least something nice about being "old"07:53
tsmitheyep07:53
tsmithe"old" in free software isn't "old" in real life, though07:54
LaserJockI remember when I first got to grad school07:55
LaserJockand everybody wanted to go to the casinos or sports bars after work07:56
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tsmithewhat's "grad school"?07:56
LaserJockand I couldn't go cause I wasn't 21 yet07:56
=== tsmithe is a brit, remember :)
LaserJockgraduate school, after a bachelors degree07:56
tsmitheaha07:56
LaserJocknot really sure what you're equivalent is07:56
tsmitheyou were young, then07:57
=== tsmithe isn't either. maybe "post-graduate".
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tsmithein England, when you're 18 i think pretty much everything is open to you07:57
LaserJockin the US usually 18 gives you everything but alcohol and car rentals ;-)07:59
tsmithewow...07:59
LaserJockeven last year I had to have a "junior" grad student rent a car for me :-)07:59
stgrabertsmithe: Same kind of problem for me, I'd have been really interested to go to UDS but as I'm not 18 yet and parents aren't really comfortable with me leaving house and going far from it for a week I'll have to stay at home and follow on the Internet :(08:00
LaserJockI'm a 5th year grad student and still the youngest08:00
tsmitheso how old are you? you must be amazingly bright to be at "grad school" if you're not 2108:00
tsmithestgraber, well, i often go away. but that's usually with friends or school08:00
LaserJockI'm ... 25 now08:00
LaserJockbeen at university for 9  years08:01
tsmithehehe. ten years older than me08:01
LaserJockso I've been at the uni since you were 608:01
=== LaserJock suddenly feels old
stgraberLaserJock: :)08:02
ScottKLaserJock: You are a year shy of being two decades younger than me.  I have a daughter tsmithe's age.  You have no need to feel old.08:02
tsmithe:)08:03
LaserJockScottK: sweet, thanks :-)08:03
tsmitheLaserJock, you went to uni when you were 16??08:03
tsmithewoah08:03
LaserJockyeah08:03
tsmithewoah08:03
LaserJockgot a Bachelor of Arts in Environmental Science with a dual major in Chemistry and Applied Mathematical Science08:04
tsmithewhen you were, what, 18?08:04
LaserJockwhich means almost nothing08:04
LaserJockbut it's fun to say08:04
tsmithewell, it's very impressive08:05
=== stgraber uses free softwares since he was 10 years old and contributes to some projects since he was 13 :)
Toadstoolg'morning everybody!08:05
stgraberhi Toadstool 08:05
LaserJocktsmithe: they kinda bent some rules so I started my degree when I was 1608:05
Toadstoolhi stgraber 08:05
LaserJockgraduated when I was 2008:05
tsmithedid you not feel uncomfortable being so young?08:05
tsmithe(my pa said he was - he went to uni when he was 17)08:06
LaserJockthen I've been working on my PhD for the last 5 years in Physical Chemistry08:06
tsmithehiya Toadstool 08:06
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Toadstoolhi tsmithe 08:06
tsmitheLaserJock, i wish they'd teach chemistry properly in british schools08:06
LaserJocktsmithe: not a whole lot, it was a small school in my home town08:06
tsmithewe don't actually do anything interesting08:06
LaserJockyeah08:06
tsmithekinda puts me off08:06
LaserJockalmost all text books teach at least 50 year old chemistry08:07
tsmithe(the only science i find interesting at school is biology)08:07
tsmitheso what do you do working for 5 years on a PhD?08:07
tsmitheit's a long time - and isn't it all towards one goal?08:08
LaserJockwell the first 2-3 are taking classes and passing exams08:08
tsmitheuhuh08:08
LaserJockthen after you've been admitted into PhD Candidacy then it's just research and writing your dissertation08:08
LaserJockI'm at the stage now where I'm trying to kinda finish stuff of and get everything written up08:09
tsmitheso what are you researching?08:09
tsmithe(I don't care if it makes no sense to me :) )08:09
ScottKIf you want to understand the process, look here: http://www.phdcomics.com/comics.php08:09
ScottK:-)08:09
Toadstoolheh08:09
=== LaserJock ^5s ScottK
tsmithehehe08:10
LaserJocktsmithe: my research is on detecting the orientation of molecular machinery with lasers08:10
LaserJockthat's the really really compact version any way08:10
tsmithehehe08:10
tsmithesounds fun08:10
LaserJockI'm part of a project designing, creating, and detecting what could be the worlds smallest light-driver motor08:11
LaserJock*driven08:11
tsmithelight-driver?08:11
tsmitheah08:11
tsmithelight-driven motor?08:11
tsmithehow's that work? wait... it's probably extremely complex08:11
LaserJockyeah, most motors on the molecular scale are driven by chemical reactions08:11
LaserJockour's is driven purely by light and physics :-)08:12
LaserJockthe light excites one part of the motor, which in turn makes it change shape, which in turn makes it rotate about an axis08:12
tsmitheooh clever08:12
LaserJocklet me see if I still have a movie of it08:13
=== tsmithe can't wait till he is studying somethings that: a) he has chosen; b) finds particularly interesting (and is thus more motivated)
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tsmithemy main motivation at school is that if i slack off, i won't be able to get to that stage08:13
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LaserJocktsmithe: that's a good motivator :-)08:14
tsmitheyup :) works well08:14
LaserJocktsmithe: but you also have to be a bit self motivated too08:14
tsmitheeh?08:15
LaserJockmost scientific research is really boring to do08:15
LaserJockthe end goals are cool08:15
tsmithei get straight As, so i don't think i'm in a pickle08:15
lupine_85LaserJock++08:15
LaserJockbut it takes a lot day-to-day boring work08:15
tsmithelupine_85, good luck on getting this MOTUship08:15
LaserJockI've been working on the same molecule for about 3 years08:15
tsmitheLaserJock, like package maintaining :P bugs vs cool features08:15
tsmithewoah08:16
tsmithethat's a very long time08:16
LaserJocktrying to figure out how to detect if it can absorb light in a certain way08:16
LaserJocknothin' fancy08:16
tsmithethat's 94,608,000 seconds08:16
LaserJockbut it builds up to a larger, and much cooler goal08:16
tsmitheyup08:18
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LaserJocktsmithe: try http://laserjock.us/ubuntu/360nRotate-slow-loop.mov08:19
tsmithethat better be an open source format08:19
LaserJockhah08:19
LaserJockI have no idea actually08:19
LaserJockI think it's quicktime08:19
tsmithepah08:20
LaserJockI've got a PowerPoint file if you want that ;-)08:20
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tsmithenoooo!08:21
tsmithehi cbx33 08:21
cbx33hey tsmithe 08:21
tsmithei must say LaserJock, i think my brain is better at a graphical represenation of your description than that film08:21
LaserJockhaha08:22
LaserJockprobably08:22
tsmithecan you do me a better one?08:22
LaserJockbut those are computational chemistry results08:22
LaserJockit's not just a cartoon08:22
=== ScottK always thinks of stuff like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_High_Energy_Laser
stgraberLaserJock: Ogg/Theora version of your video is only 587K instead of 2.1M :)08:23
LaserJockstgraber: that's cool08:23
LaserJocktoo bad I'm the only one that'd use it :(08:23
LaserJockScottK: yeah, I want me one of them ;-)08:24
stgraberLaserJock: yep, last time I tried to read a ogg theora file on Windows I've spent half an hour to find the right codec :)08:24
LaserJockI mostly deal with macs08:24
LaserJockmy boss can't stand Windows/MS08:24
LaserJockused to be hard core Linux08:25
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LaserJockin fact one of the only big Linux advocates on campus08:25
LaserJocknow he's all Apple and OS X08:25
stgraberat least it's an Unix-based OS08:25
LaserJockthat's why he uses it08:25
LaserJockhe can still run fvwm+emacs08:26
stgraberand most of the Linux apps can work using Fink or things like that08:26
phaidrosyeah and gentoo-osx is also a nice one ..08:26
LaserJockso these days I spend most of my time in OS X ssh'd to my Ubuntu machines08:28
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LaserJockScottK: btw, this is what I use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nd:YAG08:29
tsmithelupine_85, ping08:29
ScottKWhere's the kaboom.  I was expecting an Earth shattering kaboom?08:29
tsmitheLaserJock, i know they are computed. that's why you can do me a better one :)08:29
lupine_85pong, tsmithe08:30
lupine_85sup?08:30
LaserJocktsmithe: heh, that move probably took about 1 week on a computational cluster08:30
tsmithelupine_85, do you have ubuntu membership?08:30
tsmitheLaserJock, so? :P08:30
lupine_85I think the technical term for what I am is ubuntu supporter08:30
lupine_85I signed some CoC at some point08:30
tsmitheok - thanks08:30
LaserJockScottK: no kaboom, but I do burn through business cards a fair amount08:31
LaserJockScottK: it'll still blow the retina right off your eye if you got a direct hit though :/08:31
ScottKOK.  Then eye shattering kaboom.  I can live with that.  That and the potential for fires.08:32
LaserJockheh08:32
LaserJockthe power supply is the biggest danger08:33
LaserJockI think in ours there's 6 large (bigger than a soda can) capacitors adding up to something like 50kV08:33
ScottKCool.08:34
LaserJockthe prof next door had one discarge on him once08:34
LaserJockblew him across the room and out the window08:34
ScottKWow.  I remember working with a guy on some electrical stuff and he got zapped with 440v AC.  I learned what the smell of cooked human flesh was that day (smells like chicken), but he was fine.08:36
ScottKHow'd the prof next door fare with his 'experiment'?08:36
LaserJockfine I guess08:36
LaserJockluckily it was a 1st floor lab08:36
ScottKA long time ago I shot these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_missile for a living.  Those had a satisfying kaboom.08:38
LaserJockyes, quite :-)08:38
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sistpotyhi folks08:38
ScottKhi sistpoty.08:39
sistpotyhi ScottK08:39
sistpotyLaserJock: we've been thinking about filing bugs against ubuntu as RFP's during the last MC meeting... what do you think of it?08:39
LaserJocksistpoty: oh yes08:41
LaserJockyou're here08:41
LaserJockI saw that and wanted to talk to you about it08:41
LaserJockI got a feature into the LP Beta08:42
LaserJockthat allows us to preload the +filebug page with a tag08:42
sistpotycool08:42
LaserJockso we can give people a URL that will automatically tag it08:42
LaserJockwhen I talked with the LP guys08:42
LaserJockthey suggested that tagging would be the way to go08:42
LaserJockanyway, I was going to send out an email that we could start migrating the Candidates wiki page to LP08:43
sistpotygreat! please do it ;)08:43
LaserJockI thought it might be a good "bitesize" task08:43
sistpotydefinitely08:44
LaserJockso until LP 1.0 comes out we'll need to manually tag08:44
sistpotyany ETA?08:45
sistpoty(just curious)08:45
ScottKIt's on the horizon?08:45
ScottKThe horizon being the line that no matter how long you continue to approach it, you never reach it.  ;-)08:46
sistpotyhaha08:46
sistpotyoh, that reminds me of my thesis... damn *g*08:46
LaserJockI was told something around the 1 month mark08:46
sistpotyhm... that even more :P08:46
LaserJockI'm guessing it'll be out by the time Feisty is released08:47
sistpotyso I'll need to reach the horizon in about that time *g*08:47
LaserJockbut no promises08:47
sistpotysounds great08:47
LaserJockwhat we *do* need is what tag to use?08:47
sistpotyhow about RFP?08:47
LaserJockhmm08:47
LaserJockthat's kinda cryptic08:47
sistpotyas long is it's not as long as "please_include_that_package_into_the_ubuntu_repositories_kthxbye" I'm happy with anything ;)08:48
LaserJockin the original bug I've got universe-request08:49
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LaserJockbut that could be taken as meaning something more like u-u-s08:49
sistpotymaybe package-request? software-request?08:49
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LaserJockhmm08:51
jdongsistpoty: liek plz pkg vmware s3rv3r omg lolz kthxbye08:52
sistpotyhehe08:52
LaserJockjdong: maybe it' should be omgponies-please-please-kthxbye08:53
jdong:)08:53
tsmithe@pony LaserJock 08:54
tsmithepah08:54
sistpotynew tag defined: pony :)08:54
tsmithe\o/08:54
jdong<ubotu> tsmithe: haha, pon-ed.08:54
tsmithepah08:54
LaserJocksistpoty: maybe request-for-package would be the way to go08:56
LaserJockto tie into Debian, etc.08:56
sistpotysounds sane08:56
LaserJockok, a quick grep shows that Candidates has roughly 450 items08:59
sistpotya bigger bite then ;)09:00
LaserJockwell, it shouldn't be to hard to just look at a few, see if they are even plausible (not already in Debian/Ubuntu and are packagable)09:01
sistpotyyep09:03
=== LaserJock groans at ubuntu-motu
LaserJockI don't even want to look09:03
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jdongBeryl Beryl!09:04
jdongoh wait that's actually happening.09:04
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sistpotyLaserJock: I hope I got it right this time :P09:05
LaserJockMark could have had better timing for us09:05
LaserJockbut that's the way it goes09:06
sistpotyI guess I'll have gray hair after the MC period, or will end up with nerves of steel *g*09:06
LaserJockseems completely unecessary, IMO09:06
sistpoty(or both)09:06
LaserJockgood sponsorship should be just fine09:07
LaserJockwhat we really need are Freeze exceptions filed09:07
LaserJocknot fast-tracked MOTUships09:07
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sistpotyhm... the restricted upload rights for a set of packages might still be a worthwhile thing.09:07
LaserJockugg09:08
LaserJockI think that's a horrible idea :(09:08
LaserJockpersonally09:08
sistpotywell, I guess I wrote pretty much of what I think in my last mail09:08
LaserJockwe become worse than Debian09:08
sistpotyin what respect?09:09
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LaserJocknot only do you "own" packages, but you are restricted in in the archive itself09:09
LaserJockgiving upstreams some "credit" towards MOTUship seems sort of logical09:09
LaserJockespecially if they've been providing Ubuntu packages09:10
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LaserJockbut we don't even really fast-track DDs this way09:10
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sistpotyTB did, at least that was my impression, and imo that's also a good thing, since NM is particular harder ;)09:11
LaserJockwell, we don't fast track that much is what I'm saying09:11
LaserJocka DD doesn't just show up one day to the TB meeting and say "I want MOTU"09:11
sistpotyah, yep09:11
LaserJockthey certainly get credit for the Debian work09:12
LaserJockbut it's not automatic MOTUship09:12
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LaserJockI just don't see how sponsorship is that big of a barrier09:12
LaserJockespecially since we have a few MOTUs that seem to be interested in the packages09:13
=== ScottK is with LaserJock. If you show up here with a good package and are willing to hang out on IRC, you can get a package uploaded in a day or so usually. It's just not that hard.
LaserJockPriceChild and lupine_85 are on their way to MOTU I think09:14
LaserJockI've seen both of them around09:14
LaserJockI just don't see the pressure to bypass sponsorship09:14
LaserJockit's only one extra step09:14
geserme neither09:14
sistpotywell, I'm no big fan of that fast-tracking either09:14
LaserJockand a good one because it'll give them feedback09:14
LaserJockand help them get aquanted with the processes09:15
ScottKIt seems to me that the big problem with Beryl was licensing and that would get them at the archive admin if it didn't here first.09:15
LaserJockI can see if nobody was willing to sponsor09:15
LaserJockScottK: they've already been there09:15
geserthe problem with beryl was licensing and not a problem with our sponsorship09:15
LaserJockthey just didn't get it back before the Freeze09:15
lupine_85licensing should now be fixed09:15
ScottKAnd from what I understood of today's conversation, they are still fixing that.09:15
LaserJockso if we want a Freeze exception fine09:15
sistpotyLaserJock: did you look at my last mail on ubuntu-motu yet? what do you think of that proposal?09:16
=== lupine_85 kicks nameless devs in the hurties a few extra times for good measures
sistpoty(apart from that I really had that idea while showering *g*)09:17
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LaserJocksistpoty: well, my position is: We need a freeze exception not a motuship exception09:18
LaserJockthere is nothing wrong with our current process, at least where beryl is concerned09:18
LaserJockthe proper way to get beryl into feisty is to get a freeze exception09:19
sistpotyLaserJock: well, I particularly didn't want to answer to the beryl question, but rather related to the general proposal09:19
LaserJocklupine_85 and Pricechild working with imbrandon and whoever else wants to help out should be sufficient09:19
sistpotyyes09:19
LaserJocksistpoty: I don't particularly like it. Its an interesting idea and I'm glad you proposed it. I just think it's overly complicated09:19
LaserJockand I haven't seen the need for it09:20
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sistpotyhehe... well I'm a little bit pedantic *g*09:20
sistpotys/litlle bit// 09:20
LaserJockI mean, we're talking about creating a whole new class of uploaders09:21
LaserJockshould upstreams with packages in Main get to upload to Main?09:21
sistpotyI guess the thing I like about restricted upload rights is that ppl. can get a smell into motu-world and would hopefully enjoy it09:21
geserto much rules can look for the outsiders to complicated / to bureaucratic and scare them away09:22
sistpotyLaserJock: that's an interested question09:22
sistpotyintresting09:22
LaserJockIf a person packages well enough that we let them upload to the archives09:22
LaserJockand they know enough of the policies and procedures to not break things09:22
LaserJockthen they should be MOTU!09:22
gesera good upstream isn't automatically a good packager (but can become one after time)09:23
=== lupine_85 catches up on ubuntu-motu
ajmitchmorning09:23
sistpotyhi ajmitch09:23
LaserJockI consider MOTU to be the required level of knowledge of packaging and Ubuntu development to be trusted with Universe09:23
geserhi ajmitch09:23
LaserJockit has less to do with how much you know the software09:24
=== ajmitch goes to read the large amount of conversation
LaserJocksabdfl: are you still here?09:25
sabdflhi09:25
sistpotyhi sabdfl09:25
sabdflsec, lots of scrollback09:25
gnomefreakis java one of those things that can not be backported?09:26
LaserJockgnomefreak: it would probably depend on what's being backported exactly09:26
gnomefreakplugin,jre,bin and depends09:26
LaserJockgnomefreak: you'd probably want to talk to jdong about it. I'm really not sure how to handle that09:27
gnomefreak1.4==no crash 1.6==no crash 1.5 crash every time :)09:27
gnomefreakk09:27
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LaserJockoh09:27
jdonggnomefreak: I'm fine with backporting java....09:28
LaserJockI think our packages are independent, aren't they09:28
jdongthey're slotted09:28
jdongyeah.09:28
sistpotyas long as it won't need a bootstrap of the toolchain :P09:28
gnomefreakjdong: let me talk it over with asac see if he wants to backport it. it will atleast fix bug 92880 if not more09:28
UbugtuMalone bug 92880 in firefox "Firefox crashes with java applet" [High,Needs info]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/9288009:28
sistpoty(which is the reason I'd never let ghc6 through backports... would break everything)09:29
sabdflLaserJock: it's true, good packaging is not solely based on how well you know the software09:29
sabdfla good upstream on his own is still lost initially with packaging09:29
LaserJocksabdfl: do you think sponsoring is a problem in this case?09:29
sabdflbut if for example there are existing packages, and the upstream wants to make some tweaks, they will know exactly what to do09:29
LaserJocksabdfl: I would think that a Freeze exception is what's in order, not fast-tracking MOTUship09:30
sabdflLaserJock: there are examples of items falling on the floor09:30
sabdflwe have folks who stopped because nobody responded09:30
gnomefreakjdong: maybe ill play with it this week build it in edgy chroot see if it does fix it permently on edgy and see where i go from there? do you want me to ping you if everything is a go fro backport?09:30
sabdfli'm pretty disappointed that beryl did not naturally get into universe09:30
LaserJocksabdfl: we stopped because beryl people stopped giving us packages09:30
jdonggnomefreak: yeah please ping me; I'm like a 2-3 wks behind schedule in backports land09:30
sabdflno - they stopped because they were told "someone in ubuntu would package it"09:30
sabdfland nobody did09:31
LaserJocksabdfl: there was a large lack of communication09:31
LaserJockthey were not told that09:31
sabdfland it will happen again unless we address it09:31
LaserJockthey were told that several people were working on it09:31
sabdfli don't want upstreams being told "sorry, you don't know anything about packaging, go away"09:31
LaserJockand they should coordinate09:31
sabdflit turns out they learned pretty quickly about packaging09:31
gnomefreakjdong: thats cool, thank you. give me a week or 2 if that is ok. im trying to get thunderbird-dbg or -dbgsym atm to play catch up on those bugs and ill play with this in mean time09:31
sabdfltheir packages are good09:31
LaserJocksabdfl: we never tell them that09:31
sabdfland would get even better given exposure and mentoring09:31
sistpotysabdfl: however I guess fast-tracking motuship won't solve the communication problem09:31
sabdflLaserJock: careful saying never - it does happen09:32
LaserJockI've not seen it here09:32
sabdflno, it won't. there's always an obligation to communicate well09:32
Toadstoolsabdfl: I don't see how the fast-tracking motuship will solve the communication issue09:32
sabdflbut the point is that we cannot ever appear to be a closed club09:32
sabdfland i'm worried that is slightly the case09:32
Toadstooluh sistpoty was faster than me :p09:32
LaserJocksabdfl: I'm slightly irritated because we were encouraging the beryl people09:32
LaserJocksabdfl: and they never responded09:32
sabdflLaserJock: it's their software, they just setup their own repo, and we lost out on the opportunity to build a good working relationship09:33
LaserJocksabdfl: we started doing some work on our own (imbrandon mostly I think)09:33
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sabdflimbrandon did the right thing, mentoring them09:33
LaserJocksabdfl: they came back and I told them that they should see what imbrandon was doing09:33
LaserJockother people came09:33
sabdflbut then it got dropped in terms of actually closing the deal and getting the package in, and getting them the ability to maintain it09:33
LaserJockI think there at least 3-4 seemingly independent efforts to get it in09:34
LaserJockand I specifically said that they should coordinate with each other09:34
LaserJocknot that they should go away09:34
sabdflthe more such independent efforts, the less likely there is a real result!09:34
sabdfljust contention and tesion09:34
sabdfltension09:34
LaserJockright09:34
LaserJockwe were trying to help the process09:34
sabdflupstreams have a natural right to take the lead09:34
LaserJockfine09:34
sabdflthey do need to learn about our processes09:34
LaserJockbut the put packages up09:34
sabdflthey do need to fit in09:34
LaserJockthey got rejected09:34
sabdflthey can't demand that OTHER people fit in with them09:34
LaserJockwe asked them to fix them and try again09:35
sabdflLaserJock: and the result was that the learning, the development, just moved somewhere else09:35
LaserJockwe didn't tell them they couldn't09:35
sabdflthat's a failure of our process, not their work09:35
LaserJockwe didn't tell them they weren't working09:35
lupine_85LaserJock: who put the packages up?09:35
LaserJocklupine_85: I have no idea, Quinn at one time09:35
sabdflshortly we will have a place where ANYBODY can publish packages09:35
sabdflthat will make it easier09:35
LaserJocksabdfl: I really really disagree that this is a failure in our process09:35
LaserJockI've worked with both PriceChild and lupine_85 09:36
sabdflLaserJock: look at the result. the same folk who started out making packages here ended up having to publish them at ubuntu.beryl-project.org09:36
lupine_85If I'd known beryl wasn't being actively worked on, I would have started back at rc1 time09:36
LaserJocksabdfl: they didn't *have* to, they chose too09:36
LaserJockbecause they package got rejected by ubuntu-archive the first time09:36
LaserJock*their09:36
sabdflLaserJock: i would like us to get a process in place so people will CHOOSE to do that work here09:37
LaserJockfine09:37
lupine_85the repo has, erm, been up since before 0.1.0 ;)09:37
LaserJockI agree09:37
LaserJockbut, IMO the proper way to do it is sponsorship and mentorship09:37
sabdflin future,  we can say "publish them there, we will mentor you and asap get them into universe"09:37
LaserJockwhich we do09:37
LaserJocksabdfl: that's what we did!09:37
sabdflthere's a difference09:37
LaserJockthey just got rejected the first time because of the license issue09:38
sabdfl"there" should be part of our infrastructure, not somewhere we are not watching09:38
jdonggnomefreak: yeah, that's fine; hopefully by that time -archive will be less busy and actually process backports :D09:38
sabdflthey went elsewhere, and we weren't watching, so they nearly never made it into feisty09:38
sabdflthat's a failure09:38
LaserJocksabdfl: they went on REVU09:38
Toadstoolsabdfl: I'm pretty sure that beryl would be in fesity right now if the packagers had kept on working with us here instead of setting up an independent repo 'cuase of the licensing issue09:38
gnomefreakjdong: you got it :) ill let you know09:38
LaserJockwe reviewed them09:38
LaserJockwe uploaded them to Universe09:38
sabdflToadstool: they did what I would do - they just set it up themselves09:38
gnomefreaklupine_85: are they debianized already?09:39
sabdfli think lupine_85 was perfectly sane to do that09:39
LaserJockI'm not sure what more were supposed to do!09:39
sabdflit was *us* that failed09:39
tsmitheSeveas, ping!09:39
lupine_85gnomefreak: I have working debian/'s, yes09:39
ajmitchsabdfl: we can't just stick any old thing in universe - we did try & review them & give feedback09:39
Lutinsabdfl: can't get where we failed if it was a license issue09:39
ScottKsabdfl: I think you've got it wrong.09:39
sabdflajmitch: agreed - we need a process which accommodates exactly this evolution from "bad" to "ok" and does it HERE09:39
sabdflnot "go somewhere else"09:39
LaserJockwe never said that!09:40
ScottKsabdfl: That's been exactly my experience here (get from bad to OK).09:40
sabdflScottK: if i had not intervened, we would not have beryl 0.2 in universe, how can I have it wrong?09:40
ajmitchsabdfl: and that's what we try to do with REVU - we can't know if people go & package stuff somewhere else09:40
sistpotysabdfl: restricted upload rights particular won't solve that09:40
sabdflScottK: you were patient, most people are not09:40
sabdflajmitch: i want us to do better09:40
sabdflwe should have archives where this stuff can go09:40
LaserJockthen hire Universe maintainers here then09:40
sabdflso people don't have to set them up elsewhere09:40
LaserJockfix LP so we can use it for this09:40
LaserJockwhatever09:41
LaserJockbut we are all volunteers and we really try09:41
LaserJockwe helped them09:41
LaserJockwe sponsored them09:41
ajmitchsabdfl: you're basically just saying "work harder! review more!" - we try & do that09:41
LaserJockwe *did* upload to universe09:41
ScottKsabdfl: Agreed that without you're intervention it wouldn't happen, but not because of a process fault in Universe.  After your last appearance here the Beryl folks went of to fix licensing issues in their code.09:41
sabdflajmitch: no, that's exactly what i am not saying09:41
sabdflplease listen09:41
Seveastsmithe pong09:41
gesersabdfl: despite licensing or distibutional issues?09:41
sabdflthis is a social process, not a work process or a level-of-effort issue09:41
tsmitheScottK, i tend to agree with you. i feel that they should have, if they really did want them in, and want it bad, and want to do it the correct way, then that would be how they have done it09:41
sabdflsocially, if you tell people "you are not good enough" they will GO AWAY09:42
ScottKIf folks are unwilling to properly license their code, the LAST thing you want to give them is upload rights.09:42
sabdflwe don't want to do that09:42
LaserJocksabdfl: we didn't tel lthem to go away!09:42
sistpotysabdfl: we never did that09:42
tsmithewe have perfectly good processes for granting upload rights. let's adhere to them, and make it easier for them to go through those processes09:42
sabdflwe want a place where that stuff can go from embryonic to successful and that place should be right here09:42
sistpotyand we are never doing this09:42
Toadstoolsabdfl: we never said "you're not good enough" to anybody!09:42
sabdflyes you did09:42
sabdflyou said "your packages are not good enough"09:42
lupine_85ScottK: no, I fixed the issues as soon as I became aware of them :) In fact it was imbrandon who pointed out the issues to me. Again, communication... the rejection reasons for the last set of packages never actually reached me. and that probably wasn't ubuntu's fault09:42
LaserJockno we didn't!!!09:42
sabdflplease understand i am not personally criticising anyone here09:42
sabdfli think everyone has done a great job09:43
LaserJocksabdfl: did you listen to me though? We *did* upload their packages09:43
sabdflbut our process has a negative consequence that we need to fix09:43
LaserJockhow is that saying "your packages are not good enough"?09:43
ajmitchsabdfl: sayiung that packages are not good enough is a *big* difference from saying that people aren't good enough - getting packages improved is a critical part of it09:43
tsmithewell, i don't think that this is the correct way to fix it!09:43
sistpotysabdfl: sorry, but what would you say if a package is not ready to get uploaded to universe? 09:43
jdongToadstool: frankly lots of processes around here imply it... I'm busy, that's not as important as the thing I'm doing now, etc.09:43
sabdflsistpoty: i'm saying we need a place for those to cook09:43
Toadstoolsabdfl: ultimately, those who said that the packages were not suitable for universe are the archive admins09:43
sabdflnot in universe, but still in motu09:43
ajmitchwe can't just accept stuff because we're afraid that we'll chase people away09:43
tsmithepeople need to learn what it takes, and if they have that, then they should be MOTU already, or they should find it easy to get there09:44
sabdflso, there are two different issues here09:44
ScottKThe only real problem is lack of MOTU resources at times.  That will get fixed with more volunteers or funding.09:44
sistpotyScottK: ++09:44
tsmitheScottK, ++++09:44
LaserJockScottK: yep09:44
sabdflthe first issue is "where do new people making new packages that do not yet exist go?"09:44
LaserJockREVU and here09:44
sabdflthere are a bunch of issues there09:44
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sabdfllicensing needs to get straight09:44
sabdflthe packages need to work09:45
ajmitchhere, and they upload to REVU, where we review them & give feedback09:45
sistpotyand looking back hat how many packages we *got* in so far, and how many new people are around in recent times, I guess our processes aren't the worst 09:45
sabdflthey are usually crap initially, but they get better given exposure, bugs, feedback, testing...09:45
sabdflthat's one set of issues i want us to address09:45
sabdflI think PPA's will make that a lot easier09:45
LaserJockyes09:45
LaserJockwe haven't waiting for PPA09:45
ajmitchtrue, REVU doesn't build binary packages, but that was more a question of resources09:45
LaserJock*have, sorry09:45
sabdflbecause we can say "publish your packages in the MOTU PPA"09:45
jdongwhen will PPA happen?09:45
ajmitchyes, we're in the process of setting up our own buildds anyway09:46
sabdflcool09:46
jdongit's been talked about for excess of a year now09:46
sabdfljdong: a month or two, depending on feisty release, don't want to put that at risk with bug archive changes09:46
sabdflso, that's the first issue09:46
jdongok, that's good to hear.09:46
sabdfli wish lupine_85 had been given a place to do this work which was IN this community09:46
stgraberfor my first package I didn't have any problem finding the way to go from the source code without any packaging to a package in universe, the process was I think really clear09:46
jdongI've been having a painful time getting a more involved backports testing process too.09:46
ajmitchsabdfl: you don't feel that REVU is part of the community?09:46
sabdflmuch less risk of a drop in communications when people "see" each other every day09:47
jdongPPA would help me out immensely09:47
ajmitchor is it just not visible from your POV?09:47
LaserJocksabdfl: we were here, he can/did work in here09:47
sabdflajmitch: of course it is, but it's not a place where end users can get packages, so it is not the devs first love, is it?09:47
sabdflthink about it from the perspective of a beryl dev09:47
sabdflyou want to give your users a place to get the packages *NOW*09:47
sabdfland that's where you will get bugs09:47
sabdflfeedback09:47
sabdflresults09:47
sabdflsuggestions09:47
sabdflpatches09:47
sabdflwe need to provide that place09:48
LaserJocksabdfl: then give use repo resources09:48
sistpotyI guess revu particularly gives feedback about packaging bugs09:48
sabdflPPA's will help, but I'd like to MOTU's to think of how they will use that09:48
sistpotybut it's not visible to the end users09:48
LaserJockwe can't think much about stuff we haven't even seen09:48
sabdflso, that's the first issue, and i hope everyone agrees it is important09:48
tsmithehang on - i'm missing something.. what's a "PPA"?09:48
sabdflthe second issue is different09:48
sistpotytsmithe: personal package archives09:49
sabdflsay we have existing packages, and an upstream for those packages wants to work on them09:49
tsmitheah right09:49
sabdflthe basic packaging has already been done, and passed09:49
sabdflthe person is only updating them09:49
sabdflthat's much easier09:49
LaserJocksure09:49
sabdflthat's where I would like us to have fast-track with limited upload scope09:49
sabdflthe person *might* make a mistake09:49
sabdflso I like the idea of requiring motu signoff during freeze times09:50
tsmitheand in such a critical case as beryl, do we want that to be possible?09:50
sabdflit's also an incentive to actually GET to being a full MOTU09:50
LaserJocksabdfl: how is that any different than sponsorship?09:50
sabdflLaserJock: no delay09:50
sabdflwe can make it so LP can enforce this09:50
sabdflJoe can only upload to packages X, Y and Z09:50
sabdfluntil he becomes MOTU09:50
sabdfland we can also enforce MOTU-signoff during freeze periods09:50
ajmitchhow is it an incentive to go further?09:51
LaserJockfine, let's just get rid of MOTU and upstreams can maintain their own packages09:51
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sabdflajmitch: MOTU can upload anywhere09:51
sabdflalso, MOTU can upload during freeze09:51
sistpotywell, updating packages is not always easier than creating new ones... especially if you look at libraries09:51
LaserJockor merges09:51
sistpotyyep09:51
LaserJockI just think if a person really is good enough and knows enough to be trusted with uploading to Universe then they should be MOTU09:52
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sistpotythere might also be the problem of someone creating packages for upstream, who looses interest later on it... some things we should keep in mind09:52
LaserJockif the bar for MOTU is to hight that's something09:52
LaserJock*high09:52
sabdflthe MOTU team are great at building standards and maintaining quality across many packages09:53
sabdflthat's very important09:53
LaserJockmile wide and an inch deep09:53
sabdflupstreams tend to have a different view09:53
sabdflmore specific to a single package or set of packages09:53
LaserJockwe touch many packages but don't spend a lot of time on any single package09:53
sabdflthey are different, we need to appeal to both and balance them09:53
LaserJockthat's why we rely on Debian09:53
geserwhat would be the requirements for an upstream to get upload rights?09:55
ScottKsabdfl: If you want to solve the having to wait for a busy volunteer MOTU to review a package problem, then perhaps you could fund a few hours of consulting per month for MOTUs to make sure they give it focus.  I guarantee you I will find time to do paying work.09:55
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=== ScottK is not MOTU, so it wouldn't affect me directly.
sabdflScottK: different problem to solve09:56
tsmithenor I; but i strongly feel that there is a better way09:56
LaserJocksabdfl: I don't know how to exactly say this so I'll just say it. This seems like you are just trying to appease certian upstreams.09:56
sabdflLaserJock: not at all09:56
ScottKsabdfl: I don't think so.  I think that's the actual problem that exists.  To a large extent you are trying to solve the wrong problem right now.09:56
Amaranthi was going to be more blunt and replace 'certain upstreams' with 'beryl'09:56
sabdfli'm trying to make sure we have the most straightforward, sensible path-to-participation09:56
LaserJockif an upstream want's to learn how to package we go out of our way to help them09:57
LaserJockwe have set up a system for feedback09:57
LaserJockwe have mentorship programs09:57
LaserJockMOTU School09:57
sabdflAmaranth: beryl is important now, it has catalysed this discussion, but I specifically asked the MOTU council to think of how we could generalise this09:57
LaserJockand we here much more than we should be09:57
sabdflLaserJock: and that's brilliant work, that has been very successful09:57
sabdfli'm not undermining that09:57
Amaranthsabdfl: I don't see how beryl is any more important than, well, everything else09:57
sabdflbut it's missing a vector09:57
LaserJockI just don't see how we can make it any easier without comprimising quality09:58
sabdflAmaranth: that's why i asked the MOTU to generalise the concept09:58
sabdflso it applies to, well, everything else09:58
tsmithewhat other examples are pressing?09:58
sabdflLaserJock: you said it yourself - a mile wide and an inch deep09:58
LaserJockif an upstream can't make MOTU then maybe they shouldn't be uploading to Universe09:58
tsmithewhat is "everything else"?09:58
sabdflwhat if someone is knocking on the door saying "look, in this package, i can give you 10 feet deep"09:58
tsmitheeverything where it isn't working now?09:58
sabdflwe should not tell that person "you must become a generalist"09:58
LaserJockwe don't though09:59
jdongtsmithe: every piece of software that doesn't have a Ubuntu package.09:59
sabdflwe should tell that person "ok, but you have to fit in here"09:59
Seveassabdfl, isn't REVU intended for that?09:59
LaserJocksabdfl: we have MOTU Teams for instance09:59
tsmithejdong, well - are they "pressing", as i said?09:59
sabdflSeveas: it does help, but it's not the whole story, please read scrollback09:59
Amaranthall the packages i care about are in main so... :)09:59
tsmithejdong, if they aren't then i don't think they count under that09:59
LaserJocksabdfl: we don't exclude working on just one or two packages, but we just haven't had a lot of interest, IMO09:59
jdongtsmithe: I've been pressing for prevu09:59
LaserJockmost upstreams don't want to maintain their packages09:59
jdongtsmithe: less pressing right now because of time constraints and just being fed up10:00
LaserJockthat's what the distro devs are for10:00
tsmithejdong, and it's not in? i'm supprised10:00
sabdflit's like this. when you set up a social process, it evolves to suit a certain way of thinking10:00
tsmithe*surprised10:00
sabdflbut it can often be bad for people who have a different way of thinking10:00
jdongtsmithe: a half-baked got in only after insistence, but getting newer versions in is less fun than a frontal lobotomy.10:00
sabdfli'm saying that we need to consider that perhaps our processes could be broadened10:00
sabdfllots of distributions make this mistake10:01
sabdflthey think they are more important than upstream, because they are closer to the user10:01
sabdflthats only half the picture10:01
ScottKAnd when you set up social processes, you have to consider change very carefully or you will inadvertently break them.10:01
sabdflthat's why we invite lots of upstreams to our conferences, and sponsor them10:01
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sabdflScottK: that's true10:01
sabdflhence this discussion10:01
Amaranthsabdfl: i don't think anyone here feels that10:01
sabdflAmaranth: feels what?10:01
Amaranththat we're more important than upstream10:02
sabdflwell, it would never be expressed that way10:02
sabdflbut consider carefully the example here10:02
LaserJockwhat example though?10:02
Amaranthberyl?10:02
sabdflwe said "your packages are not good enough, we'll help you make them better, but we won't publish them till they are perfect"10:02
LaserJockwe did a lot of work to help the beryl people10:02
LaserJocksabdfl: we did not!!!10:02
ScottKsabdfl: This doesn't particularly feel like discussion to me.  You know what you want and you are trying to talk everyone into it even though the bulk of those present and invovled in the day to day work are disagreeing with you.10:02
sabdflthat was perfectly reasonable10:02
sabdflwe have high standards10:03
Amaranththe packages weren't even the problem most of the time10:03
Amaranthso that's a bad example10:03
sabdflshipping feisty without beryl 0.2 in universe would have been a failure *somewhere*, no?10:03
Amaranthsure, on their part10:03
LaserJockI suppose10:03
sabdflso let's be open minded enough to figure out where, and how10:03
sistpotyno... we imo got much bigger problesm10:03
Amaranththey're just fixing the problem today10:04
Amaranththey were told it was a problem a long time ago10:04
jdongsabdfl: I have to agree with all of the MOTU's here that cite resource shortage in the MOTU world10:04
LaserJocksabdfl: like I said, if you want beryl in Universe then request a Freeze exception, not go around the processes10:04
sabdfljdong: getting more upstream involvement will be one way to increase the total resources covering these bases10:04
jdongsabdfl: I have to say that more than half of the bugs that I am told to reject in Backports and sent to MOTU never get a single look10:04
sistpotyyep... I'm not quite sure where we stand on bug triaging, but iirc we've got ~10k bugs to deal with10:05
sabdflLaserJock: i think you are missing my point10:05
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tsmithei obviously am too10:05
sabdflyes, we can fix the symptoms10:05
jdongsistpoty: yeah, the # is large, and the # of confirmed ones are large too.10:05
=== ScottK too.
sabdflwe can make a freeze exeption for beryl10:05
sabdflthat is the *symptom* of the problem10:05
LaserJocksabdfl: and perhaps you are missing mine. We helped them, and we uploaded their packages10:05
sabdfla better description of the problem is "communication breakdown", right?10:05
LaserJockwe are willing to sponsor them10:05
pefhello10:05
Amaranthsabdfl: I don't see how it's communication breakdown10:06
sabdflbut the real problem is that we did not provide a forum in which they wanted to participate10:06
sabdflso they went to another forum10:06
Amaranthsabdfl: they were told of a problem, they never fixed it10:06
sabdflso communications broke down10:06
ajmitchsabdfl: if by communications problems you mean licensing issues upstream, which were being resolved by the 0.2.0 rleease10:06
tsmithewell, no. they just didn't do the required10:06
Amaranthajmitch: 0.2.0 didn't fix it10:06
sabdflAmaranth: once they left this forum, there was no longer any pressure to fix it10:06
ajmitchAmaranth: unfortunate10:06
Amaranthajmitch: 0.2.1 might10:06
LaserJocksabdfl: who left this form?10:06
geserhow would upload rights help beryl people their packages accepted by archive admins?10:06
sabdflkeep people in your forum, and you get to influence their quality directly10:06
tsmithesabdfl, shouldn't that pressure be from self-motivation?10:06
Amaranthsabdfl: They weren't here but it was still a goal10:07
sabdfltsmithe: group motivation is more consistent10:07
sistpotysabdfl: the real problem is that you want beryl in at all costs. and now blame motus to not spending every free minute to get it in or have wrong processes, while in reality we're just trying to take care for 9000+ packages with 20 active persons10:07
ajmitchsabdfl: just how could we have made upstream fix up their issues much faster?10:07
tsmitheany rejected packages of mine, i fixed and tried again10:07
tsmithei wanted them in10:07
tsmithei tried hard10:07
Amaranthsabdfl: The goal all along was getting their 0.2.0 release into fiesty10:07
ScottKsabdfl: The one place you absolutely cannot affort to compromise on correctness is licensing and that was the core issue here.10:07
sabdflsistpoty: that's totally inaccurate10:07
tsmitheand was not discouraged.10:07
lupine_850.2.1 is out :)10:07
sabdflyay!10:07
lupine_85ok. So do we want these turning into packages and putting on revu?10:08
sabdflsee how much faster we get things done when we have everyone in the same room?10:08
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ScottKsabdfl: What sistpoty said may be inaccurate, but that's sure how it looks from the sidelines.10:08
lupine_85heh10:08
sabdfllupine_85: yes please10:08
sistpotyat least from the recent discussion10:08
sabdfli'll stay here till we clear this up10:08
LaserJocksabdfl: they've mostly been all in the samre room10:08
sabdflLaserJock: no - the packaging discussion moved to another forum10:08
Amaranthsabdfl: They gave up when the FF deadline passed and 0.2.0 wasn't out yet10:08
sabdflwe gave up10:09
LaserJocksabdfl: I'm not sure how we can help it if people move discussion elsewhere10:09
ajmitchsabdfl: you mean we, the MOTUs gave up10:09
Amaranthsabdfl: If they'd met _their_ deadline they would have gotten the kick in the pants needed10:09
lupine_85Amaranth: no... we relaxed our schedule when the spec was deferred10:09
sabdflLaserJock: we can figure out how to make space for those discussions here10:09
LaserJocksabdfl: and how are we not doing that now?10:09
sabdflAmaranth: listen to yourself10:09
sabdfl"they would have gotten the kick in the pants needed"10:09
sabdflthat's terribly arrogant, and not what i want from the ubuntu community10:09
LaserJocksabdfl: we uploaded the packages!! they didn't give use new ones to upload!10:10
LaserJockhow is that our fault?!10:10
Amaranthsabdfl: Me telling them "please fix your license issues" didn't do it, the debian packager telling them "please fix your license issues" didn't do it10:10
sabdflLaserJock: relax, i'm not criticising you or the MOTU team10:10
sabdfli'm criticising OUR thinking, OUR processes10:10
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ajmitchsabdfl: saying that we gave up is close to it10:10
sabdfldo you know how universe got created?10:10
sabdfl*we*, me included10:10
Toadstoolbig bang?10:10
sabdflmore or less10:11
ajmitchcreation ex nihilo?10:11
LaserJockok10:11
sabdfljust like this discussion :-)10:11
sabdflcan i tell the story?10:11
sistpotysure, we're listening ;)10:11
=== ajmitch was there near the beginning
sabdflwhen i first proposed universe, the core devs were opposed10:11
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sabdflthey wanted to stay focused on main, keep super-high standards there, not be distracted10:11
sabdfland i felt we need a forum for all the pieces that didn't quite fit into main10:12
sabdflwe needed a place for people who were learning, and people who had unique needs10:12
sabdflthat's where innovation, great ideas could be nurtured10:12
sabdflso we made universe10:12
sabdflit was a way to create "blue sky" in the project10:12
sabdflmain is hard-core10:12
sabdflan update in main goes to gazillions of computers10:12
sabdflvery little room for error10:12
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sabdflnow universe, and MOTU, are a huge success10:13
sistpotythanks :)10:13
sabdflthis is where a lot of the interesting stuff happens10:13
sabdflxubuntu started here10:13
sabdflkubuntu started here10:13
sabdfledubuntu10:13
sabdflinnovation is very hard to schedule, to plan, to predict10:13
sabdflyou have to create a place where magic can happen10:13
sabdfland that's what i think universe is10:14
sabdflnow, i'm proposing we look beyond that10:14
ajmitchand we also have to have a place where quality is maintained10:14
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sabdflajmitch: yes, i was never suggesting that a shoddy package from an upstream should "just get uploaded"10:14
sabdflthere are two scenarios10:14
ajmitchwe often have to try & balance getting the latest crack in compared to what it may break10:14
Toadstoolsabdfl: are you somehow implying that we have set too high quality standards for universe?10:14
sabdfl (1) the upstream doesn't have a package, so they need to develop one10:15
ajmitchor what meager resources should be allocated to10:15
sabdflin this case, the initial versions can't obviously just be uploaded10:15
sabdflthis is where beryl started, right?10:15
sabdflbut we should have *a space* for them10:15
sabdfllike -experimental10:15
sabdflor a MOTU PPA10:15
sistpotyactually it looks like we've gotten more "professional" for universe in recent times... if I compare breezy release (trying to fix bugs e.g. with new upstream versions until the latest days) and universe now with all its rules, a little bit of the magic seemed to have vanished10:16
Luresabdfl: +1 on need for -experimental, but is universi it?10:16
sabdflso they stay here, in this forum, listening and learning and fixing issues10:16
sabdflLure: no, universe itself is not it10:16
sabdflbut the MOTU *community* is it10:16
LaserJockok10:16
sabdflover time, those packages mature, and asap they go into universe10:16
LaserJockI don't think anybody is opposed to PPA or an -experimental10:16
LaserJockbut right now those are vaporware for us practically10:17
LureLaserJock: exactly, it would help kde4 and similar projects 10:17
LaserJockso we do the best we can with the resources we have10:17
sabdfllook at beryl - they set up their own repo and when the packages reached the point where they could go into universe, we weren't around to notice10:17
sistpotyno, actually I've been thinking about experimental myself already, that'd defintely be a great thing to have10:17
sistpoty(what was my no aimed at?)10:17
lupine_85Question -- should there be a blank changelog for these new packages?10:17
sabdflok, i thinkwe are all coming round to the idea of a place to host packages-under-development10:17
LaserJocksabdfl: this is were I disagree though, we uploaded their packages10:17
lupine_85Or should it be a continuation of the currently-existing changelog?10:17
sabdflwhat's important to me, is that this remains the FORUM for those developers and users10:17
Luresabdfl: but accepting them in universe with license issues is not an option, agreed?10:17
gnomefreaklupine_85: i would start clean but im no motu10:17
sabdflLure: agreed10:17
sabdflbut if they were working here, those issues would be fixed much faster10:18
lupine_85gnomefreak: that was my thought too10:18
lupine_850.2.1-0ubuntu1, I assume10:18
LaserJocksabdfl: and they were welcome to10:18
sabdfllook how fast lupine_85 is working through the issues now we have this conversation in this forum10:18
geserlupine_85: yes10:18
tsmithelupine_85, yep10:18
sabdflmy point is that we should not say "go elsewhere till you solve those issues"10:18
=== ajmitch is going to leave, see you tomorrow
sistpotycya ajmitch10:18
sabdflwe should say "stay here, we will help you fix these issues"10:18
tsmithebye ajmitch 10:18
Toadstoolcya ajmitch 10:18
LaserJocksabdfl: yes, because you went to #beryl-dev and got them excited10:18
Lutinbye ajmitch 10:18
sabdflcheers ajmitch10:18
joejaxxGood Day ajmitch 10:19
stgraberI think -experimental is an intersting idea to test packages, but that would also mean some people will have to sort what will be uploaded (to avoid big conflicts) and then decide what package will or won't be uploaded to universe, that means more work and still not enough people to work on that10:19
tsmithesabdfl, i always got the impression that that was what was said10:19
sabdflso that's the first case - brand new packages, brand new devs10:19
mr_pouitbye ajmitch 10:19
sabdfltsmithe: it's subtle, but important, the difference10:19
sabdflthe second case is different10:19
tsmithei've always been very well accomodated here... :)10:19
=== tsmithe listens
sabdflin the second case we HAVE packages, but the usptreams want to improve them10:19
sabdfli think we should have an efficient way to accommodate that10:19
tsmithemakes sense10:19
=== gnomefreak working on java,firefox, thunderbird but if its just like building those let me know lupine_85 and i will give you a hand (neither of us can upload)
sabdfldesigned to provide quick entry and access to that limited subset of universe (the packages are already in universe rememeber)10:20
sabdflbut also designed to socialise that upstream to ubuntu's timing, processes, language, policy, goals etc10:20
lupine_85gnomefreak: it's just gruntwork right now ;)10:20
lupine_85but thanks for the offer10:20
gnomefreaklupine_85: are you able to carry over the rules file?10:20
lupine_85yeah10:20
sistpotyand ideally integrate upstream to become a full-fledged motu :)10:20
gnomefreakcool :)10:21
sabdflsistpoty: exactly!10:21
sabdflit's an onramp10:21
sabdflbut it's an onramp designed from upstreams perspective, not from -core-dev's perspective10:21
LaserJocksabdfl: ok, but what are you exactly suggesting? I don't see where we are really not doing this in a pretty painless way10:21
tsmithei'm unfamiliar with the term "onramp". is it like a "ramp" "on"? a boost into the community?10:21
sabdfltsmithe: yes - like the onramp to a highway10:22
lupine_85my 2p is that I can't really see a point where Ubuntu's procedures failed10:22
LaserJockwe have REVU sprints10:22
sistpotywell, restricted upload rights can really be a tool to make this happen, but as I wrote in the last mail it won't automatically do it per se.10:22
sabdfllupine_85: what if we'd offered you an archive to publish those packages in before they were ready?10:22
sabdfland kept going with the conversation here?10:22
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tsmithesabdfl, ah. i've never come across that in england, although i'm unable to drive due to my age. thanks.10:22
ScottKsabdfl: It sounds to me like you are still caught up with the idea that the Beryl devs were pushed away and all the MOTUs that have spoken say it didn't happen.10:23
lupine_85sabdfl: then I'd probably have accepted it with great thanks :), but that's communication again10:23
lupine_85if someone had asked me to work on this at 0.1.3, I would have10:23
sabdflScottK: the facts are that the beryl devs setup their own repo, and the conversation moved away10:23
lupine_85If I didn't think it was being taken care of, I would have worked on it10:23
sabdflthen the communication broke down10:23
tsmithewell... there was already the repo10:23
sabdflScottK: do you disagree with the facts?10:23
ScottKsabdfl: But you make the (IMO flawed) assumption that it's because of a process failure here.10:24
LaserJocksabdfl: I honestly think it was a beryl communication problem10:24
tsmitheperhaps the motivation wasn't there as that was easy enough?10:24
lupine_85yeah, the communication broke down.. but I don't think it was ubuntu's fault10:24
LaserJocksabdfl: they didn't seem to know who was packaging what10:24
LaserJocksabdfl: I specifically tried to help direct communication several times10:24
ScottKsabdfl: Should MOTU have accepted packages with flawed licensing?10:24
sistpotyLaserJock: maybe request-for-packages bugs can even solve this *g+10:24
sabdflLaserJock: they are upstream, we should always encourage them to take the lead10:24
sabdflScottK: please read what i said on that earlier10:24
LaserJocksabdfl: !!!!10:24
LaserJocksabdfl: that's what we've been saying10:24
_MMA_If for now the Ubuntu Studio project considers itself a upstream shouldn't we recognize that its up to us to get our packages into Universe and work within the system? As its lead I know the importance of maintaining a presence here. Shouldnt other projects as well?10:25
sabdflwell, they came to believe that someone in motu was packaging it10:25
LaserJocksabdfl: and when we let them take the lead and they didn't respond it suddenly becomes our fault?10:25
ScottKsabdfl: I've read every word you've written here and I think that you are the one that's not listening.10:25
sabdfli think that clearly suggests they were not encouraged to take the lead ;-)10:25
ScottKMOTU can lead the horse to water, but they can't make him drink.  That's the fundamental issue.10:25
LaserJocksabdfl: that was after they didn't respond and we told them who was working on it (imbrandon) and that he would probably like to work on them10:25
sabdflour process could not accommodate them here till their packages were ready for inclusion10:26
sabdflthey didn't respond because they were too busy getting on with it10:26
LaserJockwell I don't think we can help that10:26
sabdflsocially, once you have set yourself up, why should you respond to some other community?10:26
sabdflthis is one of the profound issues in free software10:26
LaserJockif upstreams don't want to work with us there isn't a ton we can do about it10:26
sabdflcommunities are by nature inward-looking10:27
LaserJockwe can't be babysitting thousands of upstreams10:27
ScottKsabdfl: The only thing that wasnt' accomodated was the ability to build binary packages.  Giving them limited upload rights with packages that have legal issues is not the right way to solve that problem.10:27
Toadstoolsabdfl: we can barely babysit ourselves ;)10:27
sabdflScottK: i will answer this again, only once10:27
LaserJocksabdfl: I agree that we would like to have a repo for this stuff10:27
LaserJocksabdfl: but that's on your end10:27
sabdflnew packages, that still have licencing issues are NOT to be "fast-tracked"10:27
sabdflwe are to create a place here, where those packages, can mature10:28
ScottKOK, but that was the core issue with the packages here, so I don't understand.10:28
sistpotyI guess the fact that we have more ppl. that *want* to work with us and follow the procedures makes it easier for us to not encourage ppl. if someone turns away there are plenty other to turn to them10:28
sabdflthe fast-track, limited upload privileges are for cases where we already have a package in the archive10:28
sabdfland we have an upstream who wants to help improve that package10:28
LaserJocksabdfl: ok, then give us community buildds and repo space10:28
sabdflLaserJock: i will do exactly that, will you be ready for it?10:28
LaserJockyes10:28
sabdflcool - then we are on the same page10:29
LaserJockwe've been screwing around making our won10:29
LaserJockbecause we've been waiting on PPA10:29
LaserJockwe've been working on this since Paris10:29
sabdflme too - man, i have been waaaiiiiting for ppa's10:29
gnomefreakjdong: that was almost too easy10:29
jdonggnomefreak: mmm?10:29
sabdflScottK: did i answer your question?10:29
gnomefreakjdong: the java6build10:29
lupine_85Do you guys want -dbg packages, by the way?10:29
gnomefreaklupine_85: please10:30
lupine_85OK10:30
jdonggnomefreak: yeah java's one of the easier backports10:30
gnomefreakah ok ill have testers to test it on edgy while im not on tomorrow im uploading now 10:30
ScottKsabdfl: Not really.  You say you don't want packages with licensing problems in the archive and that Beryl should have gotten in sooner, but it had licensing problems until today.  Those appear to be contradictory positions to me.10:31
=== gnomefreak really needs to get a repo :(
sabdflScottK: why are the licensing problems being fixed *today*?10:31
LaserJockbecause Beryl didn't do it before10:31
sabdflbut why today?10:31
ScottKFrom what I've been reading that's why they just released 0.2.1.10:31
sistpotybecause the 17th of march is from now on called beryl day :)10:32
LaserJocksabdfl: because you went over there and said you'd put them in10:32
ScottKAh.  Because you jumped in and gave them a kick in the pants.10:32
sabdfloh, please stop talking as if everyone else needs a kick10:32
sabdflin life, it's generally more successful to assume that it's NOT someone else's fault10:32
ScottKThere was no process barrier to them being here sooner.10:32
LaserJockwell, sometimes we all need some motivation, kick is not the best term ;-)10:32
lupine_85it was less a kick and more someone actually telling me it was wanted :). 10:32
sabdflkeeping people here, in this forum, is the best way to make sure that the things WE care about get done10:33
LaserJocksabdfl: they are they authors, I can't change the license for them10:33
sabdfllike licensing, packaging quality, etc10:33
stgraberjdong: While you are talking about backport, I had bug 68818 and tried fixing it with simply building Feisty package on Edgy, it worked perfectly, is there a way you make a backport to fix that really really annoying bug (unable to correctly use squid as transparent proxy (no cache is not a solution for me)) ?10:33
UbugtuMalone bug 68818 in squid "squid transparent proxy is broken" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/6881810:33
lupine_85it was sabdfl, but TBH I'd have given response to anyone10:33
LaserJocklupine_85: why did you think it wasn't wanted?10:33
stgraberjdong: I didn't see a proper patch upstream else than, fixed in next release please upgrade10:33
sabdflLaserJock: they won't change it till they realise that someone cares10:33
LaserJocksabdfl: we didn't tell them we didn't10:34
sabdfland if they are there, and we are here, there's no opportunity to realise that10:34
jdongstgraber: I am not supposed to use backports to fix bugs; I'm supposed to reassign them to MOTU10:34
gnomefreaki thought it was a FTB thats why it was stopped10:34
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sabdflLaserJock: if they were here every day, we would have10:34
jdongstgraber: which... er... basically means throwing the bug out :(10:34
lupine_85well, until UVF I thought someone in ubuntu was dealing with it (you told us otherwise it seems, but no-one told me - beryl comm problem ;) 010:34
LaserJocksabdfl: they are here quite often10:34
LutinI wonder how someone providing software can not care about its license10:34
sabdflLutin: upstreams often just want to hack10:34
sistpotysabdfl: but honestly I guess it was also a little bit of a problem how much we cared about it. it maybe might have helped to just come in and say "make this top priority" earlier on10:34
lupine_85post-UVF, I didn't bother because I thought it wouldn't get it10:34
sabdflthey have their own repos, they are publishing the packages, users are getting them, what's the problem?10:35
jdongstgraber: looks like one should diff RELEASE1 and RELEASE2 and isolate the patch, SRU it10:35
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sabdflsistpoty: someone out there cares about almost any little packages10:35
LaserJocksabdfl: the problem is they didn't get them to us, and we can't babysit all upstreams10:35
ScottKsabdfl: I think every upstream knows they get more exposure if they are acutally in the distro.  That's why I showed up.10:35
sabdflthis conversation is just catalysed because i happen to care about beryl, but the really important thing is to get a good GENERAL framework, that applies to all packages10:35
LaserJockI mean, I talke to PriceChild all the time10:36
LaserJockhe never said anything10:36
LaserJockhe's in here quite often10:36
sistpotysabdfl: yep, but we as motus obviously didn't make it a priority10:36
sabdfland he could say you never said anything10:36
stgraberjdong: ok, I guess it will more likely end with a : fixed in Feisty please upgrade once Feisty will be released10:36
lupine_85Question. Can one have two Maintainers: fields in a control file?10:36
LaserJockI've seen lupine_85 a fair amout10:36
sabdflit's easy for both sides to say "those guys don't get it"10:36
jdongstgraber: not necessarily; someone just has to isolate the patch that fixes the problem10:36
sabdfland i'm saying that for MOTU, figuring out how to be a really rocking attractive place for upstreams is a GREAT way to expand the poolof talent here10:36
LaserJocklupine_85: you can have Uploaders: or a mailing list or something for Maintainer:10:37
lupine_85ok10:37
=== lupine_85 leaves as-is for now
sabdfli'm very glad to be having this10:37
jdongstgraber: basically what James Troup said in comment #210:37
ScottKsabdfl: I think access to binary builds before it's accepted in the archive is a lot more important to making MOTU more attractive than fast tracking people.10:37
LaserJocksabdfl: I agree, we need to be as helpful as possible10:37
lupine_85so. Right now I've left blurfx in because I really can't see an issue with it. And I've taken out beryl-xgl because that apparently has to be in a separate source package10:37
ScottKLaserJock: My experience is that you guys have been extraordinarily helpful.10:38
sabdflScottK: they are both important, please look at the difference between those two, very different, scenarios10:38
lupine_85sources to all binaries are in the tarballs10:38
=== lupine_85 notes the irony of building packages for feisty in etch
sabdflScottK: here's a COMMON scenario10:38
LaserJocklupine_85: we do that sort of thing a lot ;-)10:39
lupine_85:)10:39
sabdflyou are an upstream dev of package foo10:39
sabdflyou keep getting bug reports from users of the foo package in ubuntu10:39
stgraberjdong: ok, I'm having a look at both version and trying to find the part of the code fixing it, if that's easy I'll do that myself otherwise I'll let anyone more qualified do it :)10:39
sabdflyou realise that's because a patch was not applied, you know the patch10:39
sabdflyou come over here, and get told that you need to become a generalist before you can fix little things like that10:39
sabdflso...10:39
LaserJocksabdfl: no, you aren't told that10:40
jdongstgraber: I don't think it will be difficult to isolate -- squid handles their stable releases pretty conservatively10:40
sabdflyou go away and don't bother to come back10:40
stgraberjdong: fine :)10:40
sabdflthen you see mr shuttleworth at a conference, and harangue him10:40
sabdfli have been so harangued :-)10:40
sistpotysabdfl: I guess I really see a 3rd problem with it. we motu's don't give feature wishes top priorities, as we try to keep the archive sane so far. would it be helpful somehow assign specs to motu?10:40
LaserJocksabdfl: you would be told to put your patch on the bug report and subscribe the ubuntu-universe-sponsors team10:40
lupine_85hmm... I need to sign these packages before I upload them. Does the signing key need to be the same as the Maintainer: ?10:40
ScottKActually you get told to attach a debdiff to the bug report and subscribe UUS to the bug and it'll get taken care of (usually in less the 24 hours).10:40
sabdflScottK: that's great, but i think it can get a little better10:41
Lurelupine_85: no10:41
jdongstgraber: yeah if you find it, attach it to the bug report, and that should boost the process10:41
lupine_85ScottK: except, when I gave a debdiff to the only package I've uploaded so far, it's still not been looked at AFAIK ;)10:41
lupine_85Lure: excellent10:41
sabdflwe want to be the best in the planet, right?10:41
lupine_85but it was a PITA package anyway10:41
sabdflnobody should expect that to be easy :-)10:41
ScottKlupine_85: Did you come here and ask someone to look at it?10:41
LaserJocksabdfl: exactly, including upstream10:41
jdonglupine_85: PITA packages tend to get ignored :)10:41
LaserJock;-)10:41
lupine_85TBH it's so long I forget 10:41
sabdflnow if only we could get upstreams to tend to their PITA packages ;-)10:42
danohuiginnScottK: expecting people to ask for help on IRC every time they want to upload a patch isn't ideal10:42
ScottKSo far I don't think I've had to ask more than twice here to get a bugfix uploaded.10:42
LaserJocksabdfl: they can do that, but most don't want to10:42
ScottKdanohuiginn: True, but usually I don't even have to do that.10:42
sabdflScottK: your packages may well be things that lots of motu's were keen on10:42
sabdflwhat about the packages that only a small group of people care about?10:42
jdongScottK: I think I asked in excess of 30 times to get someone to look at xserver-xgl.10:42
ScottKsabdfl: Actually my stuff hits a VERY small niche.10:43
jdongScottK: there is a pretty wide variance in response times10:43
sabdflwe tend to ignore problems in places we don't care about10:43
sabdflwe work very hard on the things we do care about, to make them perfect10:43
sabdflthen we think things are perfect10:43
jdongsabdfl: yeah, so I've noticed :)10:43
ScottKIt is true that the response level varies, but that's a MOTU resource issue and not a process issue.10:43
sabdflbecause everything WE care about is perfect10:43
jdongScottK: it's not JUST a resource issue -- resources are being allocated unevenly too.10:43
LaserJockI care about Universe and having a good quality repo10:43
sabdflScottK: well, does the MOTU process every item sequentially, first in, first out?10:44
sabdflguaranteed?10:44
ScottKOf course not.10:44
LaserJockusually easy ones first, I'd think10:44
sistpotywell, I care for some packages which I guess noone has ever used yet (including me).10:44
LaserJockdepends on the MOTU10:44
sabdflScottK: ok. in fact, MOTU's process things based on their interest10:44
sabdflwhich could be because they think its important10:44
LaserJocksabdfl: I don't think that's really true10:44
sabdflor because its cool10:44
jdongLaserJock: personal interest -> easiest -> ...10:44
sabdflor because lots of people are asking10:44
sistpotyno, also in how tough is it to handle,10:44
geseruniverse sponsors have nearly fixed 1000 bugs10:45
sabdflor because its low-haning fruit - easy10:45
danohuiginnif people don't subscribe UUS to their patches (it's not well documented) they can sit around unexamined for a LONG time10:45
sabdflso10:45
sabdfli think we must accept that some upstream could come along and put something in the queue and have it not addressed for a long time10:45
sabdflweve had a couple examples mentioned just here10:45
LaserJocksure, that happens10:45
ScottKsabdfl: That's true.10:45
sabdflright10:45
sabdflso it's wrong to say that it NEVER happens 10:46
jdongsabdfl: and if that happens once, they are more likely to assume that is the usual case and give up on the MOTU path.10:46
ScottKBut that doesn't mean that special process bypass rights is the solution.10:46
sabdfljdong: yes10:46
stgraberjdong: I've just found a patch in squid bugtracker (found bugid in the source code of Feisty's squid), I'm trying to apply it + pbuilding if it works I'll attach it to the bug10:46
ScottKsabdfl: I wouldn't say that, just describing my experience.10:46
LaserJocksabdfl: I dont' think anybody said it NEVER happens10:46
jdongstgraber: excellent!10:46
sistpotyactually patches from upstream or DDs are given preference, at least from me10:46
sabdflScottK: please understand, the special fast-track i'm looking for is very limited10:46
sabdfl (a) existing package in the archive10:46
sabdfl (b) good upstream10:46
sabdfl (c) not in a freeze period10:46
LaserJocksabdfl: then in all honestly they should be MOTUs10:46
LaserJock*honesty10:46
sabdflLaserJock: what if they don't care about any other packages?10:47
LaserJockfine10:47
jdongLaserJock: their interest  is in their own packages10:47
sabdflmotu's have a bigger picture view10:47
LaserJockno necessarily10:47
jdongLaserJock: not in caring for the entire Universe repo10:47
sistpotysabdfl: have you read my (truely bureucratic) proposal about it by mail yet?10:47
sabdflsistpoty: no, have been trying to hack a little10:47
jdongLaserJock: becoming MOTU seems to be the solution to everything around here.10:47
jdongand it's not.10:47
LaserJocksabdfl: we don't force people to work on everything10:47
sabdfljdong: you're on the right track10:47
sistpotysabdfl: hehe, might be worth to take a glimpse to it... and I really should be hacking myself :(10:47
sabdflLaserJock: no we don't10:48
LaserJocka MOTU can do whatever he/she wants10:48
jdongLaserJock: the MOTU acceptance process basically does though, to some degree10:48
sabdflbut we do have a generalist view10:48
LaserJockjdong: no it doesn't10:48
LaserJockI became a MOTU to work on science packages10:48
sabdfland we need to figure out how to accommodate specialists10:48
jdongLaserJock: the first thing I was asked in TB was how many new packages have I uploaded to Universe...10:48
sabdflvery narrow specialists10:48
jdongLaserJock: and that's not what I am here to do.10:48
jdongI'd love to if I had more time10:48
LaserJockit's about experience not specialization10:49
sabdflthe hardest thing for a community to do is to ask itself "what am i NOT seeing"?10:49
sabdflLaserJock: in some circumstances, experience with the upstream code is more important than experience across the whole distro10:49
LaserJockif you have experience packaging and know how to play well in the Ubuntu community then you should be a MOTU10:49
sabdfl*some* circumstances10:49
LaserJocksabdfl: that's fine10:49
geserjdong: I haven't uploaded even one NEW package till now10:50
LaserJockwe don't have ANY requirement on breadth of packaging10:50
LaserJockwe just require that we know what you're doing10:50
jdonggeser: I am going by my most recent rejection by the TB; personal experience.10:50
danohuiginnLaserJock: not everybody *wants* to be a MOTU10:50
sabdflwhat we need to do is figure out the circumstances where it does make sense to let someoen tweak a package of code they know very well10:50
jdonggeser: they specifically asked about _new_ packages10:50
LaserJockdanohuiginn: that's entirely ok too10:50
LaserJocksabdfl: they can do that just fine through sponsorships10:50
sabdflLaserJock: imagine how that feels?10:51
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sabdflyou have commit access upstream10:51
LaserJocksabdfl: one thing that would help would be to have better specific mentorship/sponsorship10:51
sabdfland here you are being told to send a patch?10:51
jdongLaserJock: sponsorships have turnaround times that can often be sporadic.10:51
ScottKsabdfl: It's felt quite reasonable to me.  I know my code and they know Ubuntu and we work together.10:51
LaserJocksabdfl: they need to get over it, IMO. I don't have access to there code, even it I right stuff10:51
LaserJocksabdfl: you *earn* access10:51
jdongsabdfl: it's not only about the feel of being restricted; there's also practical latency issues with the sponsorship model10:51
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LaserJockjdong: fine, then lets fix sponsorships10:51
sabdflLaserJock: if you have upstream commit, you have earned limited rights here, i believe10:52
jdongLaserJock: that would be awesome.10:52
ScottKThis has been an interesting discussion, but I have to go because I'm taking my family to the circus tonight.  I'll read the scrollback and enjoy later.10:52
LaserJocksabdfl: and that's the case10:52
sabdfljdong:agreed re latency10:52
LaserJockso ...10:52
sabdflScottK: enjoy!10:52
LaserJocklets give interested upstreams dedicated sponsors10:52
sistpotysabdfl: you'll still need to balance it because some upstreams don't know much about packaging... so imo sponsorship/mentorship should be the *starting* point10:52
LaserJockif the upstream figures things out give them MOTUship10:53
LaserJockthere's nothing "fast-track" about it really10:53
LaserJockwe aren't making exceptions10:53
LaserJockcreating more complications10:54
LaserJocklets just build better relationships10:54
sabdflmotu-ship would mean "upload anywhere"10:54
sabdfland that might not be appropriate10:54
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LaserJockbut in all honestly I don't think they should be uploading their specific package then either10:55
LaserJockwe don't really require *that* much10:55
sistpotyinteresting... the more i try to think about the problem, the more I like what I already wrote in the last mail *g*10:55
LaserJockif they know their source and their packaging10:55
geseryou'll need mentoring/sponsorship at the beginning and if they're experienced enough to get restricted upload rights they're half through MOTUship10:55
LaserJockgood enough to where sponsors no longer worry about them10:56
LaserJockthen I'm really pretty sure they could be MOTUs10:56
LaserJockwe have one of the most friendly dev communities I'm told10:56
LaserJockwe really really try hard to help people learn packaging10:56
LaserJockwe could always use more resources, of course10:57
LaserJockif we had a repo10:57
Ash-FoxLaserJock, I disagree -- I've asked questions for many many months here and never got a answer to them.10:57
LaserJockAsh-Fox: were you turned away though?10:57
sistpotyLaserJock: you should be working on cloning people... and then we could clone bddebian :P10:58
LaserJock;-)10:58
Ash-FoxLaserJock, define 'turned away' ?10:58
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LaserJockAsh-Fox: did you get a negative response10:58
Ash-FoxNope, but I don't get a negative response else-where either.10:58
LaserJockwe can't be here all the time10:58
jdongLaserJock: turned away and <silent> serve the same purpose10:58
LaserJockwell, but we try to be good about that10:59
sistpotywhich however very rarely happens10:59
sistpoty(in response to jdong)10:59
jdongLaserJock: my experience with u-u-s is that I still need to come in here to ask, several times, that someone look at it10:59
jdongsistpoty: maybe I'm just unlucky then10:59
tsmithewell, i'm going to crash now. i hope this gets resolved. night everyone. keep hacking!10:59
jdongor take on the wrong projects10:59
Ash-FoxI understand that, but I've spent months trying to answers on questions that just don't seem to be documented anywhere.10:59
sistpotyjdong: you take on the wrong projects ;)10:59
jdongI love you guys, but there's times I get the feeling that I am being purposely ignored10:59
LaserJockjdong: but you aren't helping10:59
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jdongLaserJock: oh so now I'm not helping?11:00
LaserJockjdong: yes11:00
Ademanyou guys are all quite involved in the packaging obviously, how does ubuntu work for ppc users?  Are there ppc versions of the binary packages? or do they have to compile them themselves? or what?11:00
LaserJockyou've had many chances to become MOTU11:00
LaserJockand you won't11:00
LaserJockso I complain about us being to slow11:00
LaserJocks/I/you/11:00
LaserJockbut won't help the problem11:00
jdongLaserJock: so non-MOTU's now don't deserve to get timely responses on patches?11:01
sistpotyAdeman: ubuntu has ppc packages11:01
LaserJockjdong: no, they do11:01
LaserJockjdong: but I get irritated when you complain about stuff you have the power to help fix11:01
Ademansistpoty: for everything possible? (ie everything we've got the source for?)11:01
sistpotyAdeman: not for everything, since some packages won't build on ppc (not very much though)11:02
jdongLaserJock: ok, I see where you're coming from.11:02
LaserJockso yes, we could use faster response time11:02
LaserJocks11:02
LaserJockI think that can be said of any process11:02
LaserJockwe all want things NOW11:02
Ademansistpoty: really? is that just stuff that has machine specific asm? or what? what could make a package be unavailable?11:02
LaserJockbut fast tracking upstreams doesn't seem to help much, IMO11:02
jdongLaserJock: I agree. It might band-aid a few situations but doesn't solve the underlying issues11:03
LaserJockwe often don't get upstreams in here11:03
sistpotyAdeman: asm, little/big endian probs, errors with types (e.g. int as pointer, however that's amd64 and not ppc iirc)11:03
LaserJockand we even more rarely get upstreams that want to actively maintain their packages11:03
LaserJockmost just drop by for a bug patch or something11:03
LaserJockor to notify us of some problem11:04
jdongLaserJock: it seems much more often that they wanna stop by to give us a patch11:04
jdongLaserJock: yeah, or point and yell at a bug report too :)11:04
sistpotyAdeman: depending on a compiler which doesn't work on ppc, (iirc fpc-compiler had or has the problem)11:04
jdongLaserJock: I guess I'm really guilty of that11:04
LaserJockso perhaps if we had a special upstream program11:04
LaserJockthat would give them a single person as a point of contact11:04
Ademansistpoty: ah, since i'm rather unfamiliar with most of the source code around here, are most of the apps out there going to work on ppc?  i assume most codecs won't though...11:04
LaserJockthat's kinda give them an elevated priority11:05
LaserJockwe already try to do that somewhat informally11:05
jdongAdeman: only 32-bit codecs will not work on ppc11:05
LaserJockif I see an upstream putting in a patch11:05
jdongAdeman: the full ffmpeg stack works on PPC11:05
LaserJockI'll get to it sooner than I would normally11:05
jdongAdeman: which will decode everything but Real Video 911:05
sistpotyAdeman: I'd say about 99% of the packages for which we have the source code will work. For some stuff in universe (e.g. codecs) we don't have the source, so it won't work11:05
Ademanjdong: cool, that's good to hear11:05
sistpotymultiverse even11:06
jdongAdeman: that's not to say they will work smoothly; the last time I messed with PPC there were some issues with optimizations11:06
jdongAdeman: that is, turning on optimizations causes builds to fail, so to remedy we simply shut them off or reversed them.11:06
lupine_852 packages left...11:06
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nixternalLaserJock: http://chi.ubuntu-us.org <- updated, look familiar? :)11:07
nixternaltalk about a pita11:07
lupine_85can someone remind me how I sign packages, and how to upload to revu? ;)11:07
Ademanjdong: i assume that's a gcc problem, and didn't apple USE a modified gcc for Xcode?  (meaning that we're entitled to their source code and can use it to fix our broken ppc support?)11:07
nixternallupine_85: debsign, or if you do dpkg-buildpackage -S -sa -rfakeroot -k2e2343411:07
gnomefreaklupine_85: i use -k<keyid>11:07
nixternalthe -k will sign using that key11:07
jdongAdeman: I'm not sure about the total situation, but I encountered it a few times while working on x26411:08
nixternaldput revu *source_changes11:08
gnomefreakhmmm never used -S -sa11:08
lupine_85heh, debsign it is :)11:08
Ademanwell thanks jdong and sistpoty   i'll let you guys get back to more important business11:08
jdongAdeman: there's developers around here with ppc, but not nearly as many as i386, so most of the times the approach taken is one by a clueless i386 user who just does anything to get it to compile again :)11:08
nixternalonce I get a graphics card I will have a ppc dev box11:09
nixternalor I could always donate this box to Ubuntu if needed because I doubt I will ever use it11:09
gnomefreaki plan on running out to buy a ppc when they drop the price a few thousand dollars11:11
jdongI don't think me having a ppc would make me more competent11:12
jdongI don't think one learns Altivec thru osmosis :)11:12
gnomefreakjdong: is there a limit on how long a package should be tested before backported?11:13
jdonggnomefreak: meh it really depends on when my homework is finished :)11:13
gnomefreaklol :)11:13
jdonggnomefreak: so I'm guilty of the whole poking acceleration effect too...11:13
gnomefreakjdong: well i built them (i dont think they are right) but they are built and seem to work so far11:14
jdonggnomefreak: this is sun java6 right?11:14
gnomefreaki didnt merge it i just carried it over11:14
gnomefreakyes11:14
=== jdong oddly remembers backporting it
jdong sun-java6 | 6-00-0ubuntu1~dapper1 | dapper-backports/multiverse | source11:14
jdong sun-java6 | 6-00-0ubuntu1~edgy1 | edgy-backports/multiverse | source11:14
gnomefreakapt-get source * and than built source in edgy chroot11:14
jdongsun-java6-plugin | 6-00-0ubuntu1~dapper1 | dapper-backports/multiverse | i38611:15
gnomefreakalready backported?11:15
jdongyeah11:15
jdonglooks like it11:15
=== gnomefreak smacks self
=== jdong hugs gnomefreak
gnomefreaklet me see :)11:15
=== gnomefreak hugs jdong
jdonggnomefreak: you have no idea how many times I've done that myself....11:15
LaserJocknixternal: well done site. does seem a little familiar11:15
jdong8 hours into a backporting night "hmm, this looks familiar...."11:15
jdongI look 1 comment above and I've already approved it11:15
jdong*smack*11:15
gnomefreakim looking i didnt have them enabled11:16
jdonghehe11:16
gnomefreakwell just another package i have built gives me practice11:18
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lupine_85ok... they all build here, and I think they're all signed. Now to try to upload...11:20
gnomefreakdo we just upload the .changes file?11:21
gnomefreakfor revu11:21
lupine_85I think the changes file pulls others11:21
lupine_85it lists others inside it11:21
geseryes, dput the changes files11:21
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lupine_85Aaand up they go11:24
lupine_85where's revu hosted again?11:25
lupine_85it's been a while ;)11:25
=== gnomefreak needs to try that. I just need something to fix first :)
Fujitsulupine_85: Physically? ServerPronto in the US.11:25
lupine_85I meant URL, but good to know :)11:25
Fujitsurevu.tauware.de11:25
lupine_85thanks11:25
lupine_85eh, urgh. It's uploading .debs as well - sorry11:25
geserlupine_85: dput the next time only source .changes11:26
sistpotylupine_85: cancel the upload please, revu won't accept binary packages11:26
sistpotylupine_85: I'll clear the incoming dir then11:26
lupine_85cancelled11:27
lupine_85so do I rm the .deb files11:27
lupine_85?11:27
Fujitsulupine_85: dput revu blah_source.changes11:27
gnomefreaklupine_85: i dont think you can11:27
FujitsuThe _source.changes bit is the important part.11:27
gnomefreakyou can only upload11:27
lupine_85Fujitsu: dput revu *changes is what I ran11:28
geserlupine_85: you should have to changes files, one for the source and one for the binaries11:28
gnomefreaki only get one11:28
lupine_85I've got 11 packages here ;)11:28
Fujitsugnomefreak: debuild -S will only give you one. The -S means source-only.11:28
gnomefreaksun-java6_6-00-2-0ubuntu0.6.10_i386.changes11:28
sistpotylupine_85: cleared (I hope I got them all), please retry11:28
gnomefreakFujitsu: i only ran dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -k<id> 11:29
gnomefreakFujitsu: so i should use -S -sa?11:29
Fujitsudebuild -S -sa, yep.11:29
lupine_85ah, shaft. Now it's complaining about the deb files being missing11:29
gnomefreakah ok11:29
sistpotylupine_85: please also try -S -sa to get a sourcepackage with full sources11:29
sistpoty(to dpkg-buildpackage or debuild)11:30
lupine_85So I take it I must rm everything, build with -S -sa -kwhatever, then upload11:30
gnomefreakThe Utnubu team would be more than11:30
gnomefreakshould that be ubuntu?11:30
sistpotylupine_85: you needn't remove everything, but basically yes11:30
gnomefreakrevu fron tpage11:30
sistpotygnomefreak: /me looks11:30
sistpotygnomefreak: no, utnubu is the debian team that wants to incorporate packages from ubuntu to debian (it's ubuntu reversed)11:31
gnomefreakah11:31
lupine_85ah, sweet... this is fast11:32
lupine_85no building of binaries, and the for loop takes care of the rest :D11:32
jdonghaha11:33
gnomefreakonce uploaded to revu someone else takes it?11:33
jdonghear the distant groan of motu's everywhere :)11:33
lupine_85Uploading via ftp aquamarine_0.2.1-0ubuntu1.dsc: Error '553 Could not create file.' during ftp transfer of aquamarine_0.2.1-0ubuntu1.dsc11:33
lupine_85the list of packages... aquamarine beryl-core beryl-manager beryl-plugins beryl-plugins-unsupported beryl-settings beryl-settings-bindings beryl-settings-simple emerald emerald-themes heliodor11:34
lupine_85I think incoming needs cleaning more ;)11:34
sistpotylupine_85: ah, right I skipped aquamarine *g*11:35
lupine_85:)11:35
geseris there an order how to review it?11:35
sistpotylupine_85: it's gone ;)11:35
lupine_85yep, uploading proceeding apache :)11:35
stgraberjdong: ok, I've done a patch and put it in the debian/patches stuff (dpatch), at least it applies and deapplies, the question now is will it fix the bug :)11:35
lupine_85apace, rather11:36
lupine_85so given that a load of packages here depend on a load of other packages... how does buildd cope with that?11:38
gnomefreakha it works like a charm ty jdong :)11:38
lupine_85packages uploaded11:39
sistpotylupine_85: a buildd will try to build them in order, however if one package's build dependencies cannot be met, it's retried later11:39
lupine_85ok11:39
sistpoty(however maybe LP is now smarter though I'm not sure)11:39
lupine_85w00t http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=459811:41
gnomefreakdo you need account to upload to revu?11:41
gnomefreakother than LP11:41
gesergnomefreak: you get only on your first upload11:42
gesers/only/one/ :)11:42
gnomefreakah11:42
sistpotygnomefreak: no, revu will sync the keyring from LP every 24 hours, and that's all needed for uploading11:42
gnomefreakall the packages ive been working on are in main :(11:42
gnomefreakmaybe ill look for an easy fix bug in package for multi or uni and fix it11:43
lupine_85wooo, lintian warnings11:43
sistpotygnomefreak: have you subscribed ubuntu-main-sponsors?11:44
geserlupine_85: could you please create non-native packages? one with a diff.gz11:44
sistpotylupine_85: you can ignore some, but not all ;)11:45
lupine_85geser: I have no idea what that means11:45
gnomefreaksistpoty: no asac does all the uploading for firefox stuff i just build for pratice nad some testing fixes11:45
sistpotygnomefreak: ah, k11:45
geserlupine_85: there are two types of source packages: native and non-native11:46
sistpotylupine_85: you orig.tar.gz needs to be named name_<upstream-versoin>.orig.tar.gz, that's all11:46
lupine_85ok... upstream version being 0.2.1? Then re-upload?11:47
gesernative consists only of a .dsc and a tar.gz are usually used for Debian/Ubuntu-specific packages11:47
sistpotylupine_85: yes... if you look at the .changes file, it should list 3 files one being the .orig.tar.gz, then you know you've done it right11:47
gesernon-native consists of .dsc, .diff.gz (all changes inkl. debian dir) and .orig.tar.gz (unmodified upstream source)11:48
lupine_85ok.. right now they're of the form aquamarine-0.2.1.tar.gz11:48
sistpotyhehe, the old typo: "-" -> "_"11:48
sistpotybit mit quite a few times11:49
sistpotylupine_85: got that with the orig.tar.gz? it should be aquamarine_0.2.1.orig.tar.gz11:54
lupine_85sistpoty: yep11:54
sistpoty:)11:54
lupine_85doing it for 11 packages takes more time ;)11:54
sistpotyhehe11:54
lupine_85any other changes before I reupload?11:54
lupine_85or should I just do it?11:54
sistpotyjust spotted one thing with aquamarine... let me take a quick look again11:55
sistpotyW: aquamarine source: maintainer-script-lacks-debhelper-token debian/aquamarine.postinst11:55
lupine_85mm, I fail at postinst scripts11:55
lupine_85the same is in emerald, heliodor and beryl-core11:55
sistpotyin the aquamarine.postinst, you should put in #DEBHELPER# at some place. it will get replaced with whatever debhelper wants to put in there then11:55
lupine_85I just want the postinst scripts in the .deb files (it's the only fugly hack I have, IMO - see the rules file)11:56
lupine_85so is the lack of #DEBHELPER# why they weren't getting included in the .deb files?11:56
geserlupine_85: change the build-depend on libgl1-dev in beryl-core to libgl1-mesa-dev11:56
lupine_85geser: hehe, ok.. I changed it to libgl1-dev for the benefit of a debian user11:56
sistpotylupine_85: not quite sure actually... but I assume it could be the case11:57
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geserlibgl1-dev is a pure virtual package and you can't depend on as the buildds don't know which one to pick11:57
geserlupine_85: but you can change it to libgl1-mesa-dev | libgl1-dev to serve also the debian users11:58
lupine_85well, I'll remove fugly hack from the rules and hope for the best11:58
lupine_85geser: ok, I'll do that11:58
geserlibgl-dev has no 1 in its name11:59
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lupine_85(fugly hack being in beryl-core/debian/rules: "install/beryl-core::" ;) )11:59
sistpotylupine_85: in what binary package do you want the postinst being put? into beryl-core or into beryl?12:01
lupine_85sistpoty: beryl-core12:01
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sistpotythen it should actually work w.o the hack12:01
lupine_85it registers the "beryl" binary with x-window-manager12:01
lupine_85I hope it works :)12:02
stgraberjdong: I've just finished doing the debdiff and testing it, it's attached to the bug report, what do I do next ? (I don't really know how edgy-update works) (And as I said as comment I doubt my changelog is correct but I didn't know what else to put)12:02
jdongstgraber: I'm also not 100% sure of the main SRU process...12:03
jdonghttp://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates12:03
lupine_85version bump?12:03
geserno need12:03
lupine_85ok, so just upload...12:04
geseryes12:04
sistpoty(there's no binary from revu... so no need to bump the version)12:04
gesera version is only need when it reached the archive12:04
geserarchive = the ubuntu archive12:04
lupine_85ok12:05
lupine_85ah, now it mentions the orig and a diff 12:06
gesergood12:06
lupine_85hehe, though dput is saying the orig might not be needed ;)12:07
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sistpotydput doesn't know about revu's missing features and about the ubuntu package naming scheme *g*12:07
lupine_85:)12:07
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lupine_85ok, up 12:10

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