[12:13] <LaserJock> oh my goodness
[12:13] <LaserJock> you should see the link I just got in my LUG email
[12:13] <LaserJock> http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-12355-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=31199&messageID=579806&start=43
[12:13] <jdong_> LaserJock: no those pills don't work
[12:13] <enyc> jdong_: what do you mean "rolling versions" ??
[12:13] <jdong_> enyc: the concept that there are no distro releases, and updated packages simply are made whenever new versions are available
[12:14] <jdong_> enyc: so one "version" of the distro "rolls" onto the next.
[12:14] <jdong_> LaserJock: that is hilarious
[12:14] <Fujitsu> LaserJock: ROFL
[12:14] <Fujitsu> Hahahaha.
[12:14] <Fujitsu> That's pathetic.
[12:15] <enyc> jdong_: sure... I call that "continuois" vs "release based"
[12:15] <jdong_> enyc: I've mostly heard continuous referred to as rolling version
[12:15] <enyc> jdong_: I think there is real value in being able to re-install a particular "release" of system... and keep that release withing sensible support cycle
[12:16] <Fujitsu> I don't know how I could live without them. There's not a chance. Ever.
[12:16] <jdong_> enyc: I totally agree. Continuous distros are fun for the enthusiast and tweaker, but are too high-maintenance and risky for anything more serious
[12:16] <Fujitsu> Gentoo servers are really annoying to maintain over the long term.
[12:16] <enyc> jdong_: i.e. you can actually say "it works on breezy but broken in dapper" rather than "well it did work on gentoo but it doesnt now" sort of thing...
[12:17] <crimsun> I believe running xserver-xgl on gentoo for a samba server is the bestest thing evar.
[12:17] <jdong_> crimsun: depends on your CFLAGS 11!!11 USE -O99 ZOMGZ
[12:17] <enyc> o well whatever
[12:17] <crimsun> -fpony
[12:18] <enyc> ;-) funny old world
[12:18] <Fujitsu> crimsun: I inherited a couple of Gentoo servers that are PDCs for large clients, but without the Xgl bit :P
[12:18] <crimsun> sorry, I'm being cynical [moreso than usual]  due to audio issues.
[12:18] <Fujitsu> What's the issue with audio today, crimsun?
[12:18] <geser> LaserJock: bug #92960
[12:18] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 92960 in soyuz ""Show builds" for source packages has a bad default" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/92960
[12:18] <TheMuso> gotta love bug reports that don't explicitly state that a package doesn't work, but only state that something can be made more portable with some code change, and a patch is attached.
[12:18] <crimsun> Toshibas and their broken-arse audio
[12:19] <TheMuso> bug 69738
[12:19] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 69738 in xjdic "[PATCH]  Termio bug in xjdic client/standalone" [Wishlist,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/69738
[12:19] <TheMuso> Now tell me that that report says the package doesn't work.
[12:19] <Fujitsu> It doesn't actually mention a bug.
[12:19] <Fujitsu> It just gives a fix.
[12:20] <LaserJock> crimsun: yeah :(
[12:20] <TheMuso> Fujitsu: I know.
[12:20] <TheMuso> I marked it wishlist, and the bug reporter comes back and says the apckage doesn't work.
[12:20] <LaserJock> crimsun: somehow mine does seem better in Ubuntu than windows though
[12:20] <TheMuso> and couldn't understand why I marked it as such.
[12:21] <crimsun> LaserJock: pony dust.
[12:21] <ajmitch> ZOMG ponies!
[12:21] <jdong_> crimsun: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=74072
[12:21] <Ubugtu> bugs.gentoo.org bug 74072 in Unspecified "ld errors" [Trivial,Resolved: wontfix]  
[12:21] <jdong_> check out that guy's cflags
[12:21] <Lamego> TheMuso, the description clear states that the code uses wrong indexes for Linux
[12:21] <ajmitch> I really shouldn't be at work right now
[12:21] <jdong_> that I think sums up Gentoo :)
[12:21] <crimsun> seriously, people scoff at my ponies, but I'm telling ya that's what makes audio work on some machines
[12:21] <LaserJock> crimsun: must be. but in Windows after hibernation the audio doesn't work much of the time
[12:21] <TheMuso> Lamego: But that doesn't state that its not working.
[12:21] <Lamego> by using wrong indexes you can figure it may not work as expected
[12:21] <LaserJock> in linux it rarely doesn't come back
[12:22] <jdong_> CFLAGS="-g0 -DTT_CONFIG_OPTION_BYTECODE_INTERPRETER -pipe -O3 -march=pentium4 -fweb -funswitch-loops -funroll-all-loops -funit-at-a-time -fsched2-use-traces -fsched2-use-superblocks -fsched-stalled-insns=12 -frename-registers -fprefetch-loop-arrays -fpeel-loops -fomit-frame-pointer -fmerge-all-constants -finline-limit=32768 -finline-functions -ffunction-sections -ffast-math -fdata-sections -fbranch-target-load-optimize2"
[12:22] <jdong_> that's gotta set a record somewhere.
[12:22] <Fujitsu> O_O
[12:22] <Fujitsu> I bet it gains like 0.004% or something.
[12:22] <Lamego> do you need a better description "using wrong indexes" on an array ? Its a bug described from a developers point of view
[12:22] <jdong_> Fujitsu: ten bucks it actually slows it down :)
[12:23] <TheMuso> Lamego: Ok I understand now, but I feel that people like myself wouldn't fully understand that, as not all packagers are C coders.
[12:23] <TheMuso> so its easily missed.
[12:23] <Fujitsu> It also doesn't give the impact. It just says it exists.
[12:24] <LaserJock> jdong_: that's looks  like one of my old gentoo CFLAGS ;-)
[12:24] <jdong_> LaserJock: lol was it fast? ;-)
[12:25] <LaserJock> how would I know
[12:25] <LaserJock> I was always compiling
[12:25] <jdong_> lol
[12:25] <crimsun> those chemists. Always ricing for the heck of it.
[12:25] <Lamego> packages which are not C coders should not maintain C lang packages, should just package them :)
[12:25] <LaserJock> :-)
[12:25] <Lamego> erm, packagers
[12:25] <LaserJock> crimsun: I only did silly stuff like that once
[12:25] <TheMuso> If a package has patches against source in .diff.gz, do people still break out new fixes into patch files, or do they just include patches into the .diff.gz as previously done with the package?
[12:25] <Fujitsu> LaserJock: We may forgive you.
[12:26] <Fujitsu> TheMuso: You shouldn't introduce a new patch system.
[12:26] <jdong_> anyone remember that funroll-loops.org site?
[12:26] <jdong_> http://web.archive.org/web/20060116052803/http://www.funroll-loops.org/
[12:26] <jdong_> some really good quotes there :)
[12:26] <TheMuso> Fujitsu: Right.
[12:26] <TheMuso> Lamego: In an ideal world, I would probably agree with you.
[12:26] <jdong_> "I essentially started using Gentoo because my ....ing KDE clock would never show the right time in Red Hat."
[12:26] <jdong_> yeah.....
[12:26] <Lamego> upstream should fix bugs, packagers should fix packages :P
[12:27] <LaserJock> Lamego: it's not always easy to tell the difference
[12:27] <Fujitsu> Lamego: Unfortunately, upstream often doesn't fix bugs.
[12:27] <LaserJock> Lamego: and some times upstreams aren't very responsive
[12:28] <LaserJock> just a fact of life with thousands of independent, mostly volunteer run, projects
[12:28] <Lamego> LaserJock, sure it is, if the bug is not from the package building, its from the source
[12:28] <Lamego> and developers and packagers do not have always share the same skills
[12:28] <LaserJock> Lamego: but packaging is about building source
[12:28] <Lamego> LaserJock, it is about building, not about fixing it :)
[12:28] <LaserJock> sometimes we have to fix it to build it
[12:29] <LaserJock> but for sure, if we do that we should send that upstream
[12:29] <LaserJock> we try not to maintain fixes, just get them to users while upstream is working on them
[12:29] <Lamego> such bugs are usually within the source building system, not on the package source :P
[12:29] <Fujitsu> jdong_: The CXXFLAGS in that are even longer.
[12:30] <LaserJock> Lamego: hah, depends on the source
[12:30] <LaserJock> well made source often needs little/no help
[12:30] <jdong_> Fujitsu: yeah. I'm really surprised anything compiled with those settings
[12:31] <LaserJock> Lamego: hopefully the packager-author relationship is good and two-way
[12:37] <LaserJock> man
[12:37] <crimsun> yay!
[12:37] <jdong_> LaserJock: You have just earned the jdong "Every Sentence Kills A Brain Cell" award
[12:37] <LaserJock> I just gave my advisor a quote so we can drop $2400USD on a single app
[12:37] <jdong_> (for that blog post)
[12:37] <jdong_> :D
[12:38] <crimsun> err, crap, I think I'd better install dapper before Apr 13
[12:38] <LaserJock> EOL?
[12:38] <crimsun> yeah
[12:38] <jdong_> can we not EOL distros on Friday the 13th next time? :)
[12:39] <LaserJock> crimsun: alsa? no thanks dude. I think people want *working* sound
[12:39] <crimsun> overrated
[12:39] <crimsun> you said as much yourself :p
[12:40] <LaserJock> hah
[12:40] <LaserJock> sound is great, when  you need it
[12:40] <LaserJock> I'd use sound much more if I was ever in a good position
[12:40] <LaserJock> for it
[12:41] <LaserJock> I always end up at lab
[12:41] <LaserJock> or my wife's trying to talk to me
[12:41] <crimsun> just in case anyone's contemplating buying a brand spanking new laptop, I recommend _not_ getting a toshiba.
[12:41] <LaserJock> yeah, I think my first will be my last
[12:41] <LaserJock> it was pretty cheap, at the time
[12:41] <LaserJock> but it's kinda a pain
[12:41] <crimsun> they're excellent doorstops.
[12:42] <LaserJock> the keyboard is starting to go
[12:42] <LaserJock> and the screen is getting wobbly
[12:42] <LaserJock> and not from compiz
[12:42] <crimsun> ooh, you get desktop-effects for free!
[12:42] <jdong_> LaserJock: ha, not from compiz :)
[12:42] <jdong_> is it time to start filing funny compiz bugs?
[12:42] <LaserJock> the hinge is just getting lose
[12:42] <jdong_> like windows I can no longer find after flinging them around?
[12:43] <LaserJock> compiz made me throw up, now my keyboard doesn't work
[12:43] <TheMuso> My thinkpad is more solid than any toshiba I have previously owned.
[12:44] <crimsun> TheMuso: but creative labs and toshiba are a match made in $heaven!
[12:44] <TheMuso> crimsun: Yeah.
[12:44] <crimsun> oh wait, sorry, I mistook madness for support. Sorry.
[12:45] <TheMuso> The notebook is already three years old.
[12:47] <LaserJock> my toshiba is around 3-4 years old
[12:47] <LaserJock> the stupid ac adapter is going too
[12:47] <LaserJock> it's like $50 for the cheapest replacment I could find
[12:49] <TheMuso> Whats the recommended patch system to use with a package that uses cdbs and currently has no patch system?
[12:49] <LaserJock> simple-patchsys I'd think
[12:49] <Fujitsu> Are there currently modifications to the source?
[12:49] <TheMuso> no
[01:01] <rbrunhuber> Is there a good tutorial for debugging c/c++ with kdevelop or eclipse?
[01:07] <bddebian> Heya gang
[01:07] <geser> Hi bddebian
[01:07] <TheMuso> Hey bddebian.
[01:08] <Fujitsu> Hi bddebian.
[01:08] <bddebian> Hi geser, TheMuso, Fujitsu
[01:13] <TheMuso> Heya Hobbsee!
[01:13] <Fujitsu> Hi Hobbsee.
[01:14] <Hobbsee> hey TheMuso, Fujitsu!
[01:40] <bddebian> Heya LaserJock
[01:40] <LaserJock> hi bddebian 
[01:49] <LaserJock> hmm
[01:49] <LaserJock> evolution seems really nice
[01:50] <jdong> yes, it shold be taught in schools.
[01:50] <TheMuso> har har har
[01:51] <jdong> :)
[02:08] <zakame> morning all
[02:08] <TheMuso> Hey zakame.
[02:08] <fernando> hi zakame is night :P
[02:09] <zakame> TheMuso: !here
[02:54] <ScottK> Hi all.
[02:54] <ScottK> Anyone in UUS available to look at uploading a patch (Bug #92569)?
[02:54] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 92569 in libspf2 "Intermittent incorrect SPF results" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/92569
[02:55] <TheMuso> ScottK: I'll take a look.
[02:55] <ScottK> Cool.  Thanks TheMuso
[02:56] <zul> hey
[02:57] <ScottK> ho
[02:57] <Hobbsee> hi zul 
[02:57] <zul> hey Hobbsee how goes it
[02:58] <Hobbsee> zul: i've lost my USB stick, but apart form that, it goes
[02:58] <zul> good good..
[02:58] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: at least those are getting cheaper - any significant data?
[02:59] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: some, yes
[02:59] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: i dont think my gpg key was on there though
[02:59] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: Well, only moderate damage then.
[03:01] <zul> its not the end of the world
[03:02] <Hobbsee> true
[03:02] <Hobbsee> just annoying
[03:03] <TheMuso> ScottK: Re mentioning lp bugs in the changelog, its better to use the form Closes LP: #number, as when the package gets uploaded, soyuz recognises that you have mentioned a bug closure, and while it doesn't close the bug yet, it will in the future.
[03:03] <TheMuso> ScottK: I can change that easily enough, but just be aware of that for next time.
[03:03] <ScottK> OK.  Thanks.
[03:04] <ScottK> The dpatch stuff looked correct?
[03:04] <TheMuso> Seems to be ok, I'm about to build.
[03:12] <TheMuso> ScottK: Have you made sure that the previous patch you applied for amd64 actually gets patched in?
[03:12] <TheMuso> Hang on.
[03:13] <TheMuso> Yes it does.
[03:16] <ScottK> Cool.  How's it look?
[03:17] <TheMuso> ScottK: Good.
[03:17] <ScottK> Great.
[03:21] <TheMuso> ScottK: Uploaded.
[03:21] <ScottK> Great.  Thanks for the help.
[03:21] <TheMuso> Have a look at my most recent comment, you will notice this line. Launchpad-Bugs-Fixed: 92569
[03:22] <TheMuso> That is a direct result of the way one mentions it in the changelog.
[03:22] <ScottK> Will do.
[03:22] <jdong> MOTU's, how would you like backports bugs redirected to you guys?
[03:23] <jdong> i.e. I'm coming across lots of backport requests that are more SRU-oriented
[03:23] <jdong> shall I just affects: the Ubuntu source package?
[03:23] <jdong> any group that should be subscribed, etc?
[03:29] <TheMuso> ScottK: You know the drill with uploaded packages? Set to fix released once the package has built successfully, noting that currently a manual shove is required for universe stuff to get through?
[03:31] <ScottK> Didn't know about the manual shove, but other than that, yes.
[03:31] <ScottK> Who has to push (do I just wait for the archive admins to get around to it)?
[03:31] <Hobbsee> just wait for the archive admisn
[03:32] <ScottK> OK.  Thanks Hobbsee.
[03:33] <ajmitch> yay, done with work for the day
[03:33] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: hooray, now you can get beryl into universe for feisty.
[03:33] <ajmitch> no, I won;t
[03:34] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: sabdfl wants it
[03:34] <ajmitch> sabdfl wants lots of things
[03:35] <TheMuso> haha
[03:37] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: true that.  not often that he visits #beryl-dev and tells them that he wants to see beryl in ubuntu by feisty
[03:38] <ajmitch> that's heartwarming, really
[03:38] <ajmitch> but it doesn't inspire me to work on the packages
[03:39] <Hobbsee> hehe
[03:39] <Hobbsee> http://pricechild.co.uk/logs
[03:40] <ajmitch> oh dear
[03:41] <ajmitch> "let's talk to dholbach about accelerating you to the point where you can upload straight to ubuntu"
[03:41] <ajmitch> who needs silly things like procedures, etc?
[03:42] <TheMuso> ajmitch: Thats unfair.
[03:42] <TheMuso> FOr us who put in the hard work.
[03:43] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: indeed.
[03:43] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: and freezes
[03:44] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: however, he's emailed MC asking about it, apparently, although i havent seen teh mail come through yet, so i'm sure you'll be able to voice your objections :)
[03:44] <lifeless> well
[03:44] <lifeless> depends on what accelerate means to me
[03:44] <ajmitch> I know
[03:44] <lifeless> if it means 'train him up', then he will be putting in the hard work
[03:44] <ajmitch> I'm presuming it means that
[03:45] <ajmitch> 21:54 <          sabdfl > i've mailed motu-council and cc to ask we change that to a moderated team
[03:45] <ajmitch> hah
[03:46] <ajmitch> I'm sure it was decided that it be a restricted team at the same time ubuntu-dev was made so
[03:46] <ajmitch> since we do everything by email now
[03:51] <tonyyarusso> Is it possible to ask LP to e-mail you about every change to a particular package?
[03:53] <TheMuso> tonyyarusso: You can put your name down to receive bugs.
[03:54] <TheMuso> Other than that, I know of no other way.
[03:54] <tonyyarusso> ok
[04:08] <Hobbsee> jdong: no idea how you should redirect them back to us.  maybe tag them as sru-needed or something.  someone actually has to have the interest to put the SRU through.
[04:09] <jdong> Hobbsee: *sigh* that's the thing... I'm so tempted to allow backports solely based on reason of bugfix.
[04:09] <jdong> I'm pretty convinced that doing so does not affect the chances of it at SRU anyway
[04:09] <Hobbsee> jdong: sru's getting easier, but we dont have that many people, and most people are concentrating on feisty
[04:10] <jdong> Hobbsee: it's getting easier, yes, but for upstreams that don't make bugfixes easy to cherrypick, it's still a burden
[04:10] <Hobbsee> true
[04:10] <jdong> that, as you said, most don't want to even consider
[04:24] <guidex> hey
[04:24] <Hobbsee> hiya
[05:40] <orangey> hey all!
[05:40] <Hobbsee> hiya
[05:40] <orangey> is there some sort of tree (CVS, SVN, etc) where patches to packages go before they end up in repos?
[05:40] <orangey> or do maintainers only upload packages?
[05:44] <white> orangey: this depends on the package
[05:45] <white> orangey: some teams (like pkg-perl team, cyrus team, ...) have a VCS where they store their sources
[05:45] <white> orangey: other packages don't (i do not have a VCS for my smaller packages which i maintain alone for instance)
[05:46] <orangey> white: what about the linux-source package?
[05:46] <orangey> I assume it would..
[05:47] <Lathiat> thats maintained in git i think
[05:47] <jdong> it's in git
[05:47] <jdong> kernel.org/ , git, ubuntu-2.6.git
[05:47] <Hobbsee> heya white!
[05:47] <white> orangey: you mean the kernel? yes the kernel team has its own VCS
[05:47] <white> not quite sure if it is the same for ubuntu and debian though ...
[05:47] <white> Hobbsee: heya :)
[05:48] <white> Hobbsee: so when are you finally coming to Melb? :)
[05:48] <orangey> white: and where can I find the VCSs?
[05:48] <orangey> ah!
[05:48] <orangey> jdong beat me to it : )
[05:48] <white> orangey: i am not quite sure about ubuntu, but debians is on alioth afaik
[05:48] <white> alioth.debian.org that is
[05:48] <jdong> http://science.slashdot.org/science/07/03/16/2125257.shtml
[05:48] <jdong> oops
[05:48] <jdong> http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/bcollins/ubuntu-2.6.git;a=summary
[05:48] <jdong> "human clipboard race condition".
[05:50] <orangey> thank you all!
[05:50] <Hobbsee> white: dunno.  when i dont have uni
[05:54] <white> Hobbsee: mid-semester break ...
[05:54] <white> . o O(hint hint ) ;)
[05:54] <Hobbsee> white: good point.  maybe :0
[05:54] <Hobbsee> white: whatever would i do tehre?
[05:54] <white> hmm maybe i should travel a bit as well
[05:56] <StevenK> Like there's anything to do in Melbourne anyway.
[05:57] <TheMuso> I am told that melbourne has a good live music scene.
[05:59] <ajmitch> melbourne is nice :)
[06:00] <orangey> alright, good night friends!
[06:00] <orangey> Thanks for the direction about the kernel!
[06:18] <LaserJock> I haven't quite figured out how to do anything useful
[06:21] <ajmitch> LaserJock: the  most useful thing you can do with php is run far away
[06:22] <LaserJock> it can't be that bd
[06:22] <LaserJock> *bad
[06:23] <LaserJock> I wanted to make a cool little page to help me with LP tracking
[06:27] <LaserJock> maybe I could try mod_python though
[06:31] <LaserJock> ajmitch: do you know of an example of page using mod_python that's really easy?
[06:32] <LaserJock> like, I was trying to read REVU but it wasn't as simple for a first example as I'd like it to be
[06:34] <tonyyarusso> LaserJock: bantracker maybe?
[06:38] <LaserJock> tonyyarusso: where would I get my hands on the code for that do you think?
[06:38] <LaserJock> would Seveas have it somewhere?
[06:39] <tonyyarusso> LaserJock: Try the ubotu/Ubugtu code checkout from Launchpad.  I'm not sure if the web code is included, but it might be.
[06:43] <poningru> feisty bug: links2 depends on libdirectfb-0.9-24 but feisty has libdirectfg-0.9-25
[06:44] <poningru> poningru bug: poningru is too lazy to file bugs in lp.net, so he bugs people in IRC
[06:44] <tonyyarusso> poningru: Could you file it and tag it as "bitesize" and "packaging" please?
[06:44] <tonyyarusso> heh
[06:45] <poningru> tonyyarusso: can you fix that bug?
[06:45] <poningru> the poningru bug I mean ;_
[06:45] <poningru> err ;)
[06:45] <poningru> will do
[06:45] <poningru> actually
[06:45] <tonyyarusso> poningru: Give me a blunt object and a plane ticket
[06:46] <poningru> rofl
[06:46] <poningru> rofl
[06:48] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: But you have your point stick!
[06:48] <Hobbsee> yes, i know how to work the stuff at work.  no, you telling me that it works the other way, and it not working that way, will just end up with you looking stupid.
[06:48] <Hobbsee> yes, you do have to pay for the cigarettes.  it's not acceptable to sit on the counter, reach around, and try to take some.
[06:48] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: It might also end up with them looking hit with a blunt objectg.
[06:49] <TheMuso> I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of packages that use directfb are broken.
[06:49] <Fujitsu> TheMuso: I've seen quite a few.
[06:49] <poningru> tonyyarusso: file it against links2 right?
[06:49] <TheMuso> Fujitsu: I tried that.
[06:49] <Hobbsee> smoking some really good crack will ENSURE that we notice you, because of the stench!
[06:49] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: heh
[06:49] <TheMuso> Fujitsu: I wasn't able to get any output.
[06:49] <tonyyarusso> poningru: yeah
[06:50] <poningru> tonyyarusso: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+source/links2/+bugs
[06:50] <poningru> right?
[06:50] <Fujitsu> poningru: Strip out the feisty
[06:51] <poningru> right
[06:52] <Fujitsu> Gah, stupid stupid stupid forum-people.
[06:52] <Fujitsu> I responded to a thread that they should file a bug.
[06:52] <tonyyarusso> looking
[06:52] <TheMuso> Fujitsu: Were you able to get anything?
[06:52] <Fujitsu> They continue to put bug-worthy comments in the thread, without filing a bug.
[06:52] <Fujitsu> TheMuso: Haven't tried yet.
[06:52] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: hah.  i think is aw that, yes
[06:52] <Fujitsu> I replied to like 20 threads yesterday telling people to file bugs, damnit.
[06:52] <poningru> lol alan pope already filed it
[06:53] <tonyyarusso> nice
[06:53] <Fujitsu> poningru: Link?
[06:53] <poningru> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/links2/+bug/92712/
[06:53] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 92712 in links2 "Broken dependency on libdirectfb-0.9-24" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  
[06:54] <poningru> yaaay
[06:54] <tonyyarusso> poningru: you could confirm it I suppose
[06:56] <guidex> i'm a programmer of ten years who just moved from windows to linux and would like to start making linux apps, is realbasic 2007 be a good start? (previously vb6, vb.net, vc#, java sdk, php)
[06:56] <guidex> .. under ubuntu
[06:56] <Fujitsu> RealBasic is one of the more evil languages around.
[06:56] <guidex> oh
[06:56] <TheMuso> We need to be able to do a mass pkg scan of packages that build-dep on a particular package.
[06:56] <tonyyarusso> hehe
[06:56] <poningru> guidex: YECH
[06:56] <poningru> python
[06:56] <Fujitsu> You could grab MonoDevelop and continue using C# and VB.NET, or learn Python.
[06:57] <guidex> python? never even had an overview of it
[06:57] <guidex> is python prefered?
[06:57] <tonyyarusso> guidex: Common languages from what I've seen include python, C, and smatterings of perl, C++, and PHP, depending on what you're doing
[06:57] <Fujitsu> guidex: RealBASIC is proprietary and impossible to include.
[06:57] <guidex> hrm
[06:57] <guidex> well thing is i
[06:57] <guidex> i've mostly been under vb/vb6
[06:58] <guidex> to mono then
[06:58] <poningru> mono--
[06:58] <guidex> so realbasic apps can still be installed?
[06:58] <imbrandon> guidex, gambas == vb6 , mono == vb.net c#
[06:58] <poningru> python++
[06:58] <Fujitsu> TheMuso: You should be able to use grep-dctrl to do that.
[06:58] <imbrandon> i was a win programer too at one time ;)
[06:59] <LaserJock> imbrandon! hi!
[06:59] <imbrandon> ( long ago )
[06:59] <imbrandon> heya everyone
[06:59] <Fujitsu> I must say you'd be a whole lot better off learning Python. It's pretty easy.
[06:59] <Fujitsu> !python
[06:59] <Fujitsu> Hi imbrandon.
[06:59] <ubotu> python: An interactive high-level object-oriented language (default version). In component main, is important. Version 2.4.3-11ubuntu3 (edgy), package size 37 kB, installed size 208 kB
[06:59] <Fujitsu> .. not very useful, ubotu.
[06:59] <imbrandon> Fujitsu, not nessesarly, some times you use what you know, its better for me to use gambas or mono, then learn a new lang
[06:59] <guidex> so gambas apps are easy to install then?
[06:59] <guidex> less dependencies?
[06:59] <imbrandon> guidex, yes
[06:59] <Fujitsu> Mono is better.
[06:59] <imbrandon> mono is best
[07:00] <Fujitsu> Gambas has enormous runtime dependencies, doesn't it?
[07:00] <imbrandon> in your situation
[07:00] <imbrandon> Fujitsu, no
[07:00] <imbrandon> no more than vb6
[07:00] <imbrandon> no more than python
[07:00] <imbrandon> no more than perl
[07:00] <imbrandon> no more than c++
[07:00] <Fujitsu> But Gambas is very non-standard.
[07:00] <imbrandon> ;)
[07:00] <Fujitsu> Python, Perl, C++ are commonly installed.
[07:00] <imbrandon> Fujitsu, stop talking unless you know what you are trying to say
[07:00] <imbrandon> how is it non standard
[07:01] <imbrandon> its a damn programing lang
[07:01] <imbrandon> it makes it own standard
[07:01] <guidex> does anyone in here have vb6 experience?
[07:01] <Fujitsu> I mean, it's very uncommon to have the runtime installed.
[07:01] <imbrandon> Fujitsu, and in my environment it uncommon to have perl installed, that dosent make perl non-standard
[07:01] <guidex> if so... does anyone know how feasable (if at all) it is to run vb6 under linux/wine and view your apps that way
[07:01] <TheMuso> Fujitsu: Thanks. Never knew of that one.
[07:02] <guidex> cause i got it running, but can't compile
[07:02] <Fujitsu> TheMuso: No problem. It's useful
[07:02] <imbrandon> guidex, i used vb6 for 7 or 9 years, yes they can run under wine, or you can paste them into gambas and recompile ( same syntax ) or you can convert them to vb.net and use mono
[07:02] <guidex> ok thanks
[07:03] <imbrandon> Fujitsu, gambas has runtimes just like vb6 ( or any other lang for that matter ) but with things like apt-get , deps are no big deal right?
[07:03] <imbrandon> ;)
[07:04] <jdong> imbrandon: vb7 porting is a good deal of work though
[07:04] <jdong> but definitely worth it IMO
[07:04] <imbrandon> jdong, there are 1000's of converteers out there that do 99% of the work
[07:04] <guidex> i haven't successfully ported my code using .net but i continue to try :D
[07:05] <imbrandon> poningru, join #ubuntu-mythtv we'll give you a hand , also there is a new meta that will do it all for you ( in feisty )
[07:05] <poningru> imbrandon: I was kidding :p
[07:05] <poningru> already have it installed
[07:06] <jdong> pfft poser :)
[07:06] <poningru> imbrandon: see your comment re: deps ;)
[07:07] <poningru> err wait a sec
[07:07] <poningru> Hobbsee: come pose here will ya
[07:08] <poningru> before Hobbsee gets him with her pointy stick of doom
[07:08] <jdong> poningru: meh gender never stopped me...
[07:09] <jdong> (kidding)
[07:09] <poningru> woah
[07:09] <poningru> Fujitsu: what kinda box you got?
[07:09] <tonyyarusso> Fujitsu: You think you're lagged?  HA!
[07:09] <Fujitsu> poningru: Dell Inspiron 630m, PM1.6GHz, 1GiB...
[07:09] <poningru> bah thats not so bad at all
[07:10] <Fujitsu> tonyyarusso: As in, my cursor moves once every couple of seconds at the moment.
[07:10] <Fujitsu> Not internet lag.
[07:10] <Fujitsu> I used to be a VB 4 programmer, back many years ago.
[07:10] <poningru> Fujitsu: ... get a seperate box dude...
[07:10] <tonyyarusso> ah
[07:10] <imbrandon> or use aurora / intrepid :)
[07:10] <Fujitsu> imbrandon: I was thinking that.
[07:10] <poningru> eek
[07:11] <tonyyarusso> Aw man, now we have to clean it again
[07:11] <tonyyarusso> So much for the Beta release
[07:11] <imbrandon> vb4 wow, i rember when that came out, was the first 32bit ( and 16 if you was cheap ) vb ;)
[07:11] <Fujitsu> imbrandon: In fact, I have the box right here.
[07:11] <Fujitsu> It's enormous.
[07:12] <Fujitsu> A couple of thousand pages of manuals, 14 VB floppies, and 1 ODBC redistributable one.
[07:12] <imbrandon> TheMuso, cool
[07:12] <imbrandon> TheMuso, sodo i ;)
[07:12] <Fujitsu> It has advertising on it about how it's all new and 32-bit.
[07:13] <Fujitsu> poningru: Fix for links2 uploaded.
[07:13] <poningru> yaaah
[07:13] <poningru> now thats service
[07:14] <tonyyarusso> indeed
[07:16] <Fujitsu> poningru: I'll generate a list in a sec.
[07:16] <Fujitsu> LaserJock: What's the issue? I've used it a bit.
[07:18] <imbrandon> LaserJock, wasup ?
[07:18] <poningru> so I had a question re: one of the packages
[07:18] <imbrandon> brb gotta replace some ram in a server
[07:18] <poningru> err nm
[07:19] <Fujitsu> I'm trying to look at bug #93007, but I can't get a proper backtrace from it, as apport doesn't catch it, because something else does. Anybody got any ideas?
[07:19] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 93007 in gnome-breakout "Gnome-Breakout is busted (feisty)" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/93007
[07:20] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: well, I'm using an older version
[07:20] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: and it doesn't seem to like me very well
[07:20] <StevenK> I didn't think gnome had a crash handler.
[07:20] <LaserJock> getting the .htaccess right is a pain
[07:20] <Fujitsu> LaserJock: What is it doing toe exhibit that dislike?
[07:20] <StevenK> Fujitsu: Use gdb like normal people?
[07:20] <Fujitsu> StevenK: It has bugbuddy, but it doesn't do that sort of thing.
[07:21] <Fujitsu> StevenK: True... I wonder if that'll work...
[07:21] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: it just doesn't run the .py, it just shows the code instead
[07:21] <Fujitsu> Indeed it does, but now I have to search out all the right -dbgsyms.
[07:21] <StevenK> LaserJock: You don't have a PythonHandler for the <Location> ?
[07:22] <LaserJock> StevenK: well, I can't get it to take PythonHandler mod_python.publisher
[07:23] <LaserJock> PythonHandler <py file> works ok
[07:23] <LaserJock> at least I can get something to work
[07:23] <LaserJock> but most of the examples  use mod_python.publisher
[07:23] <imbrandon> that runs it as a cgi then, not with mod_python
[07:24] <StevenK> I usually use PythonHandler <module>
[07:24] <LaserJock> hmm, then maybe I just don't know what I'm doing
[07:24] <imbrandon> LaserJock, you should have something like ......
[07:24] <LaserJock> I can't seem to get past  basic Hello World
[07:24] <imbrandon>         AddHandler mod_python .py
[07:24] <imbrandon>         PythonHandler mod_python.publisher
[07:24] <imbrandon>         PythonDebug On
[07:26] <LaserJock> imbrandon: no go
[07:26] <Fujitsu> LaserJock: That's not very descriptive
[07:27] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: ok fine, it just shows the code
[07:28] <LaserJock> or I get 403s on some of the test .py
[07:28] <Fujitsu> Put a /somefunction after it, and see if it does anything.
[07:29] <Fujitsu> (in the URL, that is)
[07:29] <TheMuso> Fujitsu: There were only two?
[07:29] <StevenK> LaserJock: And look at the error log
[07:30] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: that gets me a 404
[07:30] <Fujitsu> TheMuso: Yeah.
[07:30] <TheMuso> Right.
[07:30] <Fujitsu> LaserJock: What if you put a function that exists?
[07:31] <LaserJock> 404
[07:31] <LaserJock> it must be something funky
[07:31] <StevenK> And what does the error log say?
[07:32] <StevenK> If that doesn't help, kill apache, run it with -X and strace it.
[07:32] <LaserJock> StevenK: I don't think I've got that kind of access
[07:33] <LaserJock> StevenK: but the error log just says that the files can't be found
[07:33] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: get fixing :)
[07:33] <StevenK> Some of those should just get punted out.
[07:33] <TheMuso> That wouldn't be so easy, as the package code as it is may not support php5.
[07:34] <LaserJock> well, I get it to work with:
[07:34] <LaserJock> AddHandler python-program .py
[07:34] <LaserJock> PythonHandler mptest
[07:35] <LaserJock> and
[07:35] <LaserJock> from mod_python import apache
[07:35] <LaserJock> def handler(req):
[07:36] <LaserJock> but I have no idea how to do anything interesting with that
[07:36] <LaserJock> the docs move on to    PythonHandler mod_python.publisher
[07:37] <LaserJock> this is why PHP seems much easier
[07:37] <LaserJock> but I suppose once I get it I'll have more fun
[07:38] <Fujitsu> It's a whole lot nicer, more flexible, and saner than PHP.
[07:38] <Fujitsu> And it does OOP properly.
[07:39] <imbrandon> but php was designed for the web , python and perl were not, as you are finding out LaserJock ;)
[07:39] <imbrandon> brb
[07:39] <LaserJock> yeah
[07:39] <LaserJock> well, I'm giving up for tonight
[07:40] <LaserJock> I'll have to talk with cbx33 as I think he got it working and it's his box
[07:41] <poningru> hmm
[07:41] <poningru> Fujitsu: got another one for ya
[07:41] <Fujitsu> poningru: Go ahead.
[07:41] <poningru> dovecot-common
[07:42] <poningru> and inetd
[07:42] <poningru> specifically openbsd-inetd
[07:42] <Fujitsu> dovecot-common isn't on the list I generated in a fresh chroot 10 minutes ago.
[07:43] <poningru> Fujitsu: this isnt dependent on libdirectfb
[07:43] <poningru> I would file a bug
[07:43] <poningru> but I cant figure it out
[07:43] <Fujitsu> poningru: I've got the whole unmetdeps list here.
[07:43] <poningru> Fujitsu: well the weird thing is dovecot depends on inetd but package doesnt do it
[07:44] <poningru> err package doesnt specify it as such
[07:44] <poningru> so if you tried to install dovecot-common without inetd being installed it would throw bunch of errors
[07:44] <poningru> and not start
[07:45] <poningru> the funny thing is in ubuntu-desktop inetd is installed by default
[07:45] <poningru> but server cd does not install it by default
[07:45] <Fujitsu> -standard, I think.
[07:47] <poningru> yeah what I cant figure out is why inetd installs in desktop and not in -standard
[07:58] <cypher1> can the fix for  bug 74159 done in edgy, or should it be fixed only in feisty ?
[07:58] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 74159 in netkit-base "Should Recommends update-inetd" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/74159
[08:00] <poningru> ...
[08:01] <cypher1> got it.. update-inetd looks available only in feisty so the fix can be done only feisty and above
[08:03] <poningru> cypher1: thanks dude assuming that will fix the dovecot-common issue
[08:05] <cypher1> poningru, dovecot-common issue ?
[08:08] <poningru> see my convo with Fujitsu 
[08:08] <imbrandon> looks like there is a killer review on /. for feisty ( ALREADY ! )
[08:09] <poningru> basically dovecot-common package throws errors about /etc/inetd.conf missing
[08:09] <poningru> imbrandon: lol yeah from osnews
[08:10] <poningru> cypher1: dovecot-common should really depend somehow on openbsd-inetd or some inetd but it doesnt
[08:10] <poningru> imbrandon: and guess what it isnt the beta she uses its herd5
[08:10] <crimsun> oh yeah, nothing like git-format-patch at 3:10 AM due to flight cancellation!
[08:11] <imbrandon> heya crimsun 
[08:11] <Fujitsu> poningru: The beta isn't even out yet...
[08:11] <Fujitsu> Hi crimsun!
[08:11] <imbrandon> there is no beta yet
[08:11] <imbrandon> poningru, 
[08:11] <poningru> Fujitsu: yeah I know
[08:11] <poningru> hence me going WTF
[08:12] <imbrandon> why wtc?
[08:12] <imbrandon> err wtf
[08:12] <poningru> because she says it is beta
[08:12] <poningru> that she reviewed
[08:12] <poningru> but then she says herd5 was used
[08:12] <imbrandon> she is a reporter, they are notoriously wrong
[08:12] <imbrandon> nothing new there
[08:12] <poningru> funny thing she actually is usually pretty acurate
[08:12] <poningru> she even filed the bugs
[08:12] <crimsun> was that eugenia's post?
[08:12] <poningru> that she ran into
[08:12] <poningru> crimsun: yeah
[08:13] <crimsun> ah, I wonder if that had anything to do with the flurry of ffmpeg and faa[cd] 
[08:13] <Fujitsu> crimsun: Heheh, yeah...
[08:13] <Fujitsu> `Give me AAC in ffmpeg NOOOOW!'
[08:14] <imbrandon> ugh, that must have been jdong 
[08:14] <jdong> imbrandon: as much as I would love to say that....
[08:14] <jdong> imbrandon: and I love you too.
[08:15] <imbrandon> :)
[08:15] <jdong> for the record I asked for the risky compile-time option to add AAC in addition to mp3, etc :D
[08:15] <jdong> which was perfectly reansable
[08:15] <jdong> so take that
[08:15] <jdong> imbrandon: gimme AAC in amarok NOOOOOW
[08:15] <jdong> lol
[08:15] <imbrandon> no !
[08:16] <poningru> aac is apple drm right?
[08:16] <imbrandon> poningru, no
[08:16] <Fujitsu> So, does anybody feel like maintaining multiverse versions of ffmpeg and its rdepends?
[08:16] <imbrandon> aac is an open codec, apple uses aac + drm
[08:16] <poningru> oh
[08:16] <Fujitsu> AAC has patent issues, I believe.
[08:16] <Fujitsu> Hence its restriction to multiverse.
[08:16] <poningru> huh
[08:16] <imbrandon> e.g. it would be the equiv of ogg vorbis + drm ;)
[08:17] <poningru> hmm
[08:17] <poningru> Fujitsu: apparently not
[08:17] <poningru> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Audio_Coding#Licensing_and_patents
[08:17] <jdong> AAC is just patented
[08:17] <jdong> that is the only issue
[08:17] <Fujitsu> jdong: That's what I thought.
[08:18] <jdong> well.. currently IIRC the MPEG-4's are personal use OK up to 2010-ish or something
[08:18] <jdong> but RMS consipiracy theorists...
[08:18] <jdong> meh I love my AAC and H.264. bite me.
[08:18] <poningru> http://www.vialicensing.com/Licensing/MPEG4_FAQ.cfm?faq=6#6
[08:18] <Fujitsu> I'm sure it wasn't all put in multiverse by accident.
[08:18] <imbrandon> 02:16 < Fujitsu> Hence its restriction to multiverse.
[08:19] <imbrandon> err
[08:19] <imbrandon> wrong paste
[08:19] <imbrandon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Audio_Coding
[08:19] <jdong> Fujitsu: I have strong impressions that encoding AAC is patent protected...
[08:20] <jdong> I think that's even in ffmpeg's LEGAL file
[08:20] <jdong> that there have been real life suits filed because of it
[08:20] <Fujitsu> jdong: ... I'm not debating that.
[08:20] <poningru> jdong: take a look at the wikipedia link I gave
[08:20] <jdong> poningru: opening....
[08:21] <Fujitsu> poningru: Take a look at Wikipedia's credibility.
[08:21] <Fujitsu> And take a look at where it is in the Ubuntu archive.
[08:21] <poningru> Fujitsu: take a look at the citation ;)
[08:21] <Fujitsu> I know which I trust with regards to this.
[08:21] <jdong> However, a patent license is required for all manufacturers or developers of AAC codecs
[08:21] <jdong> mmm.
[08:21] <poningru> right
[08:21] <jdong> lovely
[08:21] <jdong> so technically all FOSS encoders are no-go.
[08:21] <poningru> so it can be distributed but only as source
[08:21] <poningru> well you can
[08:21] <jdong> poningru: even as source it's sketchy.
[08:21] <poningru> right quasi-legal
[08:22] <jdong> poningru: quasi-legal as in illegal but nobody's gonna complain.
[08:22] <Fujitsu> Source should be OK, but this is the law, so anything could happen.
[08:22] <jdong> i.e. Gentoo win32codecs fetcher scripts, etc.
[08:22] <poningru> jdong: well if this ms v att case goes in ms' direction then that would be legal
[08:22] <jdong> poningru: lol, irony, we're rootin on MS
[08:22] <poningru> I know right
[08:23] <imbrandon> anyhow rember you all are talkin encoding, not playback ;) playback is fine ;)
[08:24] <jdong> imbrandon: no? codec developers need license
[08:24] <jdong> codec = encoder and/or decoder.
[08:24] <jdong> :(
[08:24] <crimsun> CNR to the rescue!
[08:24] <jdong> It is for this reason FOSS implementations such as FAAC and FAAD are distributed in source form only,
[08:24] <poningru> rofl
[08:24] <jdong> lol
[08:25] <jdong> so easy no wonder it's #1
[08:25] <jdong> or is that the wrong slogan? :D
[08:25] <jdong> crimsun should split into two.
[08:25] <jdong> a sane and insane one.
[08:25] <jdong> like jdong and funroll-loops
[08:25] <crimsun> oh bah, let me hobble about my cave in peace
[08:25] <imbrandon> hehe
[08:25] <jdong> personally I've found ogg and aac to be pretty similar in quality
[08:26] <jdong> except ogg can screw up a few kinds of techno pretty badly
[08:26] <jdong> ogg theora however.... has some ways.
[08:27] <Fujitsu> Argh, last comment on the /. Feisty story is annoying.
[08:27] <jdong> Fujitsu: stop reading the comments
[08:27] <jdong> read the mars rover thing!
[08:27] <poningru> the waah?
[08:27] <jdong> haha. on victoria's rim.
[08:27] <Fujitsu> jdong: I did that like 12 hours ago.
[08:27] <jdong> lol
[08:27] <jdong> Fujitsu: did the innuendos jump out? :D
[08:27] <poningru> oh right
[08:28] <poningru> rofl
[08:28] <poningru> hooray for /.
[08:28] <poningru> news for 2nd graders
[08:28] <jdong> Fujitsu: are you trying to tell me that a computer can run this Ubuntu thing without Windows?
[08:28] <jdong> no drivers, no boot floppy?
[08:28] <jdong> check your assumptions first, man.
[08:29] <poningru> jdong: you read that zdnet thing too?
[08:29] <imbrandon> anyone who fights over codecs should diaf imho, its the ricer community for music, hell fm radio sounds good enough for millions everyday ;)
[08:29] <poningru> bwhahahah
[08:29] <jdong> poningru: I think we all did :)
[08:29] <Fujitsu> jdong: I read that about 12 hours ago, too :P
[08:30] <jdong> imbrandon: I'm not gonna waste my time quibbling over intricate details, but order-of-magnitude differences are worth a bit of time to evaluate, IMO
[08:30] <Fujitsu> As everybody well knows, my computer couldn't live without these critical Windows services.
[08:30] <jdong> Fujitsu: heh be glad Xgl won't be complained about as abandonware ;-)
[08:31] <TheMuso> If I were world dictator, I would decree that everybody *MUST* use Flac.
[08:31] <jdong> and Fujitsu, Microsoft spent 9 billion dollars making Vista, and you're saying this free gnu thing that popped up overnight can replace the windows?
[08:31] <Fujitsu> TheMuso: I have to agree with you there.
[08:31] <jdong> TheMuso: buy me a new terabyte SAN first.
[08:31] <Fujitsu> jdong: I loved that line in particular.
[08:31] <poningru> TheMuso: I think I would be leader in the revolution that ends your dictatorship
[08:31] <Fujitsu> Ew, AAC.
[08:32] <jdong> one day RMS is gonna come assault me.
[08:32] <Fujitsu> jdong: You're just sick.
[08:32] <jdong> Fujitsu: oh suck it up :P
[08:32] <jdong> Fujitsu: they're in an ogg container though ;-)
[08:32] <jdong> Fujitsu: to annoy the crap outta my purist friends.
[08:32] <jdong> mean, no?
[08:33] <Fujitsu> Urgh...
[08:33] <Fujitsu> So wrong...
[08:33] <jdong> lol
[08:35] <TheMuso> Fujitsu: I'll look at gnomesword, as I uploaded it if you like.
[08:35] <Fujitsu> TheMuso: I'm looking at it now.
[08:35] <TheMuso> built fine here
[08:35] <Fujitsu> Some libgnomeprint headers missing, it seems.
[08:35] <TheMuso> um what version?
[08:36] <TheMuso> of gnomesword
[08:36] <Fujitsu> 2.2.0-1
[08:36] <TheMuso> actually the upload I did hasn't been published yet.
[08:36] <Fujitsu> Argh, it's probably in unapproved.
[08:37] <Fujitsu> It'd be really nice if we could see what was in there.
[08:37] <TheMuso> Damn right.
[08:37] <TheMuso> Fujitsu: According to the build page, all successfully built
[08:37] <TheMuso> or do you mean its not installing
[08:38] <Fujitsu> It was uninstallable, but a rebuild fixes that.
[08:38] <TheMuso> right
[08:38] <Fujitsu> It doesn't build in a Feisty pbuilder, due to missing headers.
[08:39] <TheMuso> right
[08:39] <TheMuso> You know, when libs are changed like that, I reckon lp should check for packages depending on the lib, and just rebuild them.
[08:40] <Fujitsu> That would be nice, yeah.
[09:28] <imbrandon> ...
[09:28] <Fujitsu> imbrandon: ?
[09:28] <imbrandon> Fujitsu, ?
[09:28] <imbrandon> heh
[09:29] <imbrandon> heh
[09:30] <Fujitsu> It came from the fora, which is why it's so crazy.
[09:33] <Fujitsu> jdong: Most of the forum people are crazy, admit it.
[09:33] <jdong> Fujitsu: and a merry christmas to you too.
[09:34] <Fujitsu> Why thankyou.
[09:35] <imbrandon> i think the spacebar should be removed from all forum users keyboards , kthxbye
[09:41] <poningru> rofl
[10:16] <imbrandon> winemerge kdelibs
[10:16] <imbrandon> erm
[10:17] <jdong> Password:
[10:17] <man-di> Error: Operation Failed
[10:17] <imbrandon> Ke)kcsae*sdfJNsd7
[10:18] <imbrandon> i can see jdong trying to ssh to my box now and use that ;)
[10:18] <jussi01> lol
[11:06] <lupine_85> hey people
[11:08] <lupine_85> thought i'd pop in and apologise for the whole fast-tracking thing... I realise it's not exactly fair on the people who've actually walked the walk
[11:08] <imbrandon> ?
[11:09] <lupine_85> sabdfl wants to turn me and pricechild into motu's post-haste
[11:09] <imbrandon> !?!
[11:09] <lupine_85> yeah, I know
[11:09] <imbrandon> where did mark say this?
[11:10] <lupine_85> on #beryl-dev, then in a mail to MOTU council council
[11:10] <imbrandon> the MOTU process isnt that long if you have the qualifications, it only takes one email and 1 - 2 week(s)
[11:10] <lupine_85> apparently to get beryl uploaded "at first"
[11:11] <imbrandon> zomg i fixed those packages how many times ? now this ? wtf
[11:11] <lupine_85> heh, I don't even /use/ ubuntu any more ;)
[11:11] <imbrandon> ...
[11:12] <TheMuso> WOw the devs are working today?
[11:13] <imbrandon> i am ? why wouldent they ?
[11:13] <TheMuso> imbrandon: They don't normally do so on the weekend
[11:14] <imbrandon> i see marks letter to the MC lupine_85 , nothing about fast tracking, he only sugested that you apply
[11:14] <imbrandon> just as anyone else
[11:15] <imbrandon> TheMuso, i guess some dont ( the paid ones ) but not all core-dev is paid :)
[11:15] <TheMuso> imbrandon: I know that.
[11:15] <imbrandon> lupine_85, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2007-March/000050.html
[11:15] <TheMuso> But people like cjwatson and mithrandir are.
[11:15] <imbrandon> nothing about fast tracking there
[11:15] <imbrandon> TheMuso, maybe release time ;)
[11:16] <TheMuso> true that.
[11:16] <TheMuso> I was just commenting that one doesn't usually see them around.
[11:17] <imbrandon> hehe yea
[11:17] <lupine_85> imbrandon: hmm. That's not the email I got... the subject was "Fast-track mentoring for lupine_85 and pricechild" To:  motu-council@lists.ubuntu.com
[11:19] <imbrandon> lupine_85, look for your self, its an open list https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2007-March/thread.html#45
[11:20] <lupine_85> mm, I did.... which is why it's strang
[11:20] <lupine_85> ...e
[11:20] <imbrandon>  /msg sabdfl per your email to the MC about restricted vs moderated teams, that was a TB decision , here is the e-mail from mdz about it https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2007-March/000045.html
[11:20] <imbrandon> crap
[11:21] <imbrandon> i hate this fskin keyboard
[11:21] <lupine_85> it was To: motu-council & cc: me, pricechild & mdz ~midnight. maybe it's not reached the ML yet
[11:24] <sabdfl> _MMA_: around?
[11:27] <imbrandon> sabdfl, its 5:30 am his time, might still be asleep, but i can ring him if its semi-urgent
[11:44] <ajmitch> evening
[11:44] <imbrandon> heya ajmitch 
[11:44] <TheMuso> Hey ajmitch.
[11:50] <ajmitch> good to see sabdfl around :)
[11:50] <enyc> weep
[11:52] <sabdfl> not too urgent, just wanted to see. thanks imbrandon
[11:52] <enyc> meep even ;-)
[11:53] <imbrandon> ajmitch, whoohoo today is payday , so i'm gonna get those adapters for the aurora buildd ( sata to ide ) later
[11:53] <ajmitch> yay
[11:54] <enyc> SATA > PATA bridge devices?
[11:54] <imbrandon> yea
[11:54] <enyc> why you use those etc.?
[11:54] <imbrandon> the buildd has all pci slots used by sata controlers , and we need more hdd's ;)
[11:54] <enyc> ;-)
[11:55] <imbrandon> so 4x more devices with those :)
[11:55] <enyc> not enough bays ;-)
[11:55] <imbrandon> well this is a 2u case so i can put 8 total
[11:56] <Fujitsu> I had some HDDs taped into the server at home a year or so back :-/
[11:56] <enyc> Fujitsu: hrrm not well heatsinked then?
[11:56] <imbrandon> heh
[11:56] <Fujitsu> Gah, gnome-panel keeps restarting on upgrades.
[11:56] <enyc> Fujitsu: funny... you sound like a broken harddisk to me.... ive known haany many broken fujitsu hdds
[11:56] <Fujitsu> enyc: They worked fine.
[11:56] <Fujitsu> enyc: That's what I'm named after, funnily enough.
[11:57] <imbrandon> yea i have burned up MANY MANY Fujitsu drives
[11:57] <Fujitsu> A broken Fujitsu 10.4GB HDD.
[11:57] <enyc> Fujitsu: ;-)
[11:58] <imbrandon> back in a bit, smoke time while i wait for qt4.2.2 to compile on XP
[11:58] <Fujitsu> Night ajmitch.
[11:58] <imbrandon> gnight ajmitch 
[11:59] <enyc> seem to like eating all the RAM
[01:21] <giskard> hello *
[01:22] <Hobbsee> heya giskard 
[01:22] <Fujitsu> Hey giskard.
[03:18] <imbrandon> grep '<a href="https://launchpad.net/~' /tmp/all.html | cut -f 2 -d '~' | cut -f 1 -d '"' | grep -v '/' | sort | uniq
[03:18] <imbrandon> errr
[03:18] <imbrandon> i'm gonna fix this damn paste key
[04:31] <vil> hi, I have a question about UVF exception, can anyone help me?
[04:33] <sistpoty> hi folks
[04:42] <ScottK> hi sistpoty
[04:42] <sistpoty> hi ScottK
[04:42] <geser> Hi sistpoty
[04:42] <sistpoty> Hi geser
[04:42] <geser> vil: just ask
[04:43] <ScottK> sistpoty: I kicked off the discussion you wanted on ubuntu-motu.  It'll be interesting to see where this goes.
[04:44] <phanatic> ScottK: i fully agree with your points
[04:44] <sistpoty> ScottK: yay, thanks. nice reply to sabdfl's mail... I must admit that I'm not too comfortable with the suggestion as well
[04:44] <ScottK> Thanks.
[04:44] <sabdfl> hi folks
[04:44] <ScottK> Hi.
[04:44] <sistpoty> hi sabdfl
[04:44] <geser> Hi
[04:44] <sabdfl> i think we want to maintain really open doors
[04:45] <sabdfl> i'm disappointed that upstreams have got as far as REVU then given up
[04:45] <sabdfl> upstreams who want to see their packages loved in ubuntu should find us more welcoming!
[04:45] <sabdfl> balance that with the need to build a cohesive community
[04:45] <sabdfl> and strong process / practices / principles
[04:46] <sabdfl> i think a good approach is to say "you can upload, but just those packages"
[04:46] <sabdfl> and "you need to collaborate with motu and demonstrate you have that ability before you can upload more widely"
[04:46] <sabdfl> that protects the integrity of the MOTU team
[04:47] <sistpoty> sabdfl: having upstream packaging for ubuntu is indeed a good thing. But I fear that creating a side-route to motu-ship will demotivate ppl. who went through the hard way
[04:47] <ScottK> sabdfl: What problem are you trying to solve?  My experience is that it only takes a day or two to get a good package uploaded.
[04:47] <sabdfl> sistpoty: that's why we have to differentiate between "limited upload" and MOTU
[04:47] <sabdfl> i'm asking that we create a process for fast-track with limited upload
[04:47] <sabdfl> i will get LP to support this so we can enforce it, initially we would need to do it on tryst
[04:47] <sabdfl> errr
[04:47] <sabdfl> trust
[04:48] <sabdfl> i do enough on tryst already!
[04:48] <sabdfl> ScottK: trying to connect upstreams more directly with their packages in ubuntu
[04:48] <geser> there are already two beryl packages in universe. Do somebody know why the rest didn't get it?
[04:48] <sistpoty> hm... interesting... iirc there have been some suggestion for s.th. like this on debian side as well, because the nm process is really long
[04:49] <sabdfl> geser: that's exactly the right question to be asking!
[04:49] <geser> I catched somewhere (Debian perhaps) that beryl had licensing problems which should be resolved with beryl 2.0
[04:49] <ScottK> Yes, but on Debian, they seem to be moving to group maintenance like Universe is now.  I don't use Debian, but I'm on the Python modules team and can get stuff reviewed and uploaded through mentors much like I do here through REVU.
[04:50] <ScottK> sabdfl: I'm the upstream for several of the packages I've brought here through the REVU process and I feel plenty connected.
[04:51] <sistpoty> sorry, offline right now... my family just arrived at my door... bbl
[04:51] <ScottK> sabdfl: Upon reflection, I believe that your proposal will reduce upstream connection to Ubuntu, not increase it.
[04:52] <sabdfl> ScottK: how is that?
[04:52] <ScottK> By giving people limited upload rights for the packages they are concerned about, they can get their stuff into Ubuntu without any community involvement.
[04:52] <ScottK> In the long run, they are less connected to the community, not more.
[04:52] <ScottK> There's no joining incentive.
[04:53] <ScottK> You get more of their stuff into Ubuntu, but they have no need to be connected to the community.
[04:53] <ScottK> How committed are they going to be to maintaining these packages then?
[04:53] <ScottK> Who's going to get stuck with it?
[04:53] <sabdfl> good point
[04:54] <sabdfl> we could connect that upload right to continued participation in the community
[04:54] <sabdfl> take the beryl guys
[04:54] <sabdfl> it's not quinn here, but lupine_85 and pricechild
[04:54] <sabdfl> they are specifically working on *ubuntu* packages
[04:54] <sabdfl> but not in ubuntu
[04:54] <sabdfl> their primary interest is in beryl 
[04:54] <sabdfl> for them, ubuntu is a way to get wider testing and insight
[04:54] <ScottK> OK.  So they upload them to REVU and two MOTU's look at them.  If they're good, then they go in.  How hard is that?
[04:54] <sabdfl> of course, we want them to understand how they fit in
[04:55] <sabdfl> ScottK: it creates an opportunity for the ball to be dropped
[04:55] <geser> I also fear that people get to focused on their packages and ignore the rest and don't try to become real motus
[04:55] <sabdfl> i think some percentage of the upstreams who do this will infact want to get more involved
[04:55] <ScottK> I understand where they come from.  I'm here primarily because of my interest in SPF (Sender Policy Framework), but I've become a part of the community and done stuff to help the greater good.
[04:55] <sabdfl> and that's great
[04:55] <sabdfl> those are the motu's and future -core-devs
[04:55] <sabdfl> ScottK: you are in that percentage
[04:56] <sabdfl> but i fear other upstreams have come and gone, and that's a problem i would like to solve
[04:56] <ScottK> sabdfl: It sounds like the real problem you are trying to solve is not enough MOTUs to review packages.
[04:56] <sabdfl> so, three tiers, as it were
[04:56] <sabdfl>  - "single package focus"
[04:56] <sabdfl>  - "motu"
[04:56] <sabdfl>  - "core-dev"
[04:56] <sabdfl> ScottK: it's deeper than that
[04:57] <sabdfl> as soon as i have to get my work THROUGH someone else, there is an opportunity for me to feel disenfranchised
[04:57] <jlzo> effie_jayx, hi.. 
[04:57] <sabdfl> we need to balance that with the sense of rigour and quality that MOTU enforces
[04:57] <sabdfl> but i believe in giving people a chance to get it right
[04:57] <sabdfl> especially early in a release cycle
[04:57] <ScottK> OTOH, if I take my work to someone else and they bless it as a good thing, I get the Geek accolade thing too.
[04:57] <sabdfl> that's true - both are valuable, i'm not trying to lessen the benefits of review and collaboration
[04:58] <sabdfl> i'm trying to open the INITIAL door a bit wider
[04:58] <ScottK> What technical skills as a packager does a MOTU need that your tier one single package does not?
[04:58] <geser> When upstream can upload directly to universe doesn't it extend the divergence to/from Debian?
[04:58] <sabdfl> MOTU would need a broader sense of integration between packages
[04:58] <sabdfl> policy and direction of the distro as a whole
[04:58] <sabdfl> rather than just one piece of it
[04:58] <sabdfl> "what is the next release going to look like, and how do all these threads combine to make that happen"
[04:59] <sabdfl> as opposed to "here's a new upstream release of Foo"
[04:59] <sabdfl> those two are slightly in tension
[04:59] <sabdfl> but we need to acknowledge both and create processes for both
[04:59] <ScottK> Perhaps a middle ground would be to go through REVU for NEW packages and then give limited rights for updates?
[05:00] <sabdfl> ScottK: that would be fine, yes
[05:00] <sabdfl> in other words "prove you can produce a first cut that is OK"
[05:00] <sabdfl> for packages where there is an existing package, that's not so easy
[05:00] <ScottK> Perhaps do that up to UVF and then after UVF, it needs a MOTU ack.
[05:00] <sabdfl> yes, that could be done too
[05:01] <ScottK> But if you do this, then you need to create general criteria and not have this be the special "Beryl exception".
[05:01] <sabdfl> i agree - i ampushing for Beryl because I think we urgently need it in *main*
[05:02] <ScottK> Frankly, MOTU is probably the most open technical forum I've run across.  More friendly is not needed.
[05:02] <sabdfl> i'm trying to arrange that desktop-effects let you choose between beryl and compiz
[05:02] <ScottK> sabdfl: Then maybe put it in main directly and make it not a MOTU problem?
[05:02] <sabdfl> so we can get wider testing of both
[05:05] <sabdfl> in this case we can, yes
[05:05] <ScottK> sabdfl: I also think this points to a general need for something like Debian Experimental.  This came up a few days ago in the discussion about KDE4 packages.
[05:05] <geser> can really a upstream author be add good packager without guidance?
[05:06] <sabdfl> geser: yes
[05:06] <lupine_85> the packages in ubuntu.beryl-project.org work - and they're fairly well-thought-out - the main question to me, aside from ubuntu integration tweaks, is whether there are any ubuntu policies they violate that I don't know about ;)
[05:07] <sabdfl> ScottK: we can bypass MOTU, but i think it's important that we get this straight for future
[05:07] <imbrandon> whoa , sorry just steped back in, umm it only takes them sending an email to the MC and 3 ppl saying "yes" ? i dont feel that is hard, much easier then when i went infront of the TB for MOTU and again for Core-Dev
[05:07] <ScottK> Personally, I think this approach has long term social risks for Universe and I would encourage you to step back and make sure you've conciously accepted the risk.
[05:08] <ScottK> IMO getting into Universe is easy enough for anyone that makes an effort.
[05:08] <sabdfl> i would agree, but i've seen several cases where upstreams have felt disenfranchised
[05:09] <Lutin> imbrandon: not quite sure about that
[05:09] <sabdfl> they feel there's a tight group here that all know each other, and that to be effective here they have to "crack the nod"
[05:09] <sabdfl> we trust these guys deeply anyway - we ship their code!
[05:10] <imbrandon> sabdfl, no offence, but did you see how much me and ajmitch and crimsun and others had to whip the beryl packages into shape for them even in their svn, even small things like versioning conflicts , lupine_85 , Amaranth , and a few others on the team already work closely with some of us, i would be happy to mentor them into the week long process of becomming a full MOTU but i'm not at all for side stepping the process 
[05:11] <Amaranth> whoa whoa, don't include me in there :)
[05:11] <geser> sabdfl: I confess that a upstream can get a good packager but only after a time. I've doubt he will be a good packager from the beginning (if he hadn't done packages in some inofficial repo)
[05:11] <sabdfl> folks, we need to accept that something failed
[05:11] <imbrandon> Amaranth, you did back in the day ( UDS timefremae )
[05:11] <sabdfl> six months ago we wanted beryl in ubuntu
[05:11] <sabdfl> now, there are good packages, but they are not in ubuntu?
[05:12] <Amaranth> imbrandon: yeah, never really did anything with that
[05:12] <Amaranth> imbrandon: i work on compiz now :)
[05:12] <sabdfl> we need to ask, where did that fall down?
[05:12] <lupine_85> sabdfl: what failed is that nobody told me that nobody else was packaging them ;)
[05:12] <lupine_85> so a lack of communication
[05:12] <sabdfl> and the best way to ensure communication is to have a direct role for upstreams in ubuntu
[05:12] <imbrandon> sabdfl, sabdfl what failed was a lack of communication, not the fact there wasent sponsors or packagers
[05:13] <sabdfl> imbrandon: in this case, perhaps, but again i'm looking to find a way to get upstreams more directly connected
[05:13] <imbrandon> infact if you look at the archives about 2 months ago i made the first beryl upload for them, it had issues with copyright that needed addressed , since then there has been little word "officialy"
[05:14] <lupine_85> imbrandon: on the contrary, there was a big push. all-our-own artwork became a blocker for 0.2, in fact
[05:14] <imbrandon> sabdfl, i wholey agree, but i dont think "fast tracking" someone for one package or set of packages when they havent walked the walk is ummm silly
[05:15] <imbrandon> better to fix the problem, not create a new one
[05:15] <Amaranth> lupine_85: did anyone ever come here and say "we've fixed the copyright problems, here are some new tarballs"?
[05:15] <imbrandon> lupine_85, i know, but between my uploads and 0.2 was  a LONG pause
[05:15] <sabdfl> imbrandon: i disagree - in this case the person has provably produced packages which are the only way an ubuntu person can actually get the software
[05:16] <sabdfl> except that to do so, the ubuntu user has to go and find the repo, add the repo to sources.list, add a gpg key that they need to trust...
[05:16] <sabdfl> that's silly
[05:16] <sabdfl> let's (a) get those packages in ubuntu and (b) let the people who produce them get direct feedback from users, as well as directly improve the packages
[05:16] <imbrandon> sabdfl, right only after me ajmitch geser and crimsun just to name the ones of my head that "fixed" them , ask quinn
[05:17] <imbrandon> sure, lets get them in
[05:17] <imbrandon> hehe
[05:17] <imbrandon> i'm all for that 10000000%
[05:17] <ScottK> It seems odd to me to argue that it's to hard to get packages approved after submission when the packages have never been submitted.
[05:17] <imbrandon> but ....
[05:17] <sabdfl> this is going to result in better, faster evolution of free software
[05:17] <imbrandon> one sec phone
[05:17] <imbrandon> sorry
[05:17] <sabdfl> imbrandon: i appreciate that you and others helped to produce those packages, but then communication broke down
[05:17] <sabdfl> let's make sure that does not happen in future!
[05:18] <geser> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2007/02/msg00382.html mentions some lincense problems with beryl for Debian. Are these problems resolved now?
[05:18] <sabdfl> we will shortly have the PPA facility, which will allow us to mentor people directly using LP builds, just not uploading direct to universe
[05:18] <lupine_85> geser: yep
[05:19] <sabdfl> as fast as possible we want those packages to go into the mainline so they get wide testing
[05:19] <sabdfl> we already ship tango icons
[05:19] <sabdfl> that's not an issue for us
[05:19] <geser> lupine_85: did these problems prevent an inclusion into universe? or were there any other problems?
[05:19] <TomaszD> can anyone tell me when is restricted-manager going to be available for translation? I can't find the template in rosetta
[05:20] <TomaszD> oops, wrong channel :)
[05:20] <imbrandon> ok back sorry, yes lets get them in there, i'm willing to doso today if wanted, but lets do this the normal way with me and geser sponsoring them , and let the MOTU processes take their run as far as MOTUship
[05:20] <imbrandon> sabdfl, ^^
[05:21] <imbrandon> i mean honestly, the MOTU process is only a week, IF that
[05:21] <geser> especially since it doesn't take that long to become a MOTU. I became from nom-member to MOTU in something like 4-5 months.
[05:21] <imbrandon> most of the time shorter, if there is proven experince as in these two cases
[05:21] <Amaranth> I'd say that the license issues have _not_ been fixed
[05:21] <Lamego> that's not a long time on open source terms :P ?
[05:22] <Amaranth> unless the beryl developers have assigned most of their work on beryl-core to Novell and released it under the MIT license
[05:22] <geser> to became a DD you need something like 1-2 years
[05:22] <Lamego> that's why releases take so long :P
[05:23] <lupine_85> geser: debian doesn't have universe... ;) but AFAIK tango and some license headers in source were the main issues
[05:23] <lupine_85> there are possibly some headers that still aren't perfect, but tango is completely sorted (and not an issue for ubuntu anyway). 
[05:23] <imbrandon> lupine_85, still i became a core-dev inside of 4 months from my first upload ( almost a year ago now hehehe )
[05:24] <geser> Lamego: I haven't had problems to get uploads sponsors as non-MOTU. crimsun only needed a few minutes to some hours to upload it for me.
[05:24] <lupine_85> imbrandon: I started the process. Honestly I did. I guess I picked the wrong package ;)
[05:24] <imbrandon> lupine_85, sure , lets get those headers worked out and get this in
[05:24] <Lamego> btw, could someone review the  gnome-subtitles package in REVU ?
[05:25] <imbrandon> lupine_85, are you a native english speaker? not that i care but i was going to offer to get on a conf call with you ( my dime ) and we can get this worked out quickly 
[05:25] <Amaranth> I'm looking at files the beryl guys have obviously changed and they still only have the compiz header
[05:25] <sabdfl> ok, in this case i;m happy everyone wants to get the packages straight in
[05:25] <sabdfl> let's solve that first
[05:25] <lupine_85> imbrandon: native english, yes
[05:25] <Amaranth> which says david reveman is the author, novell owns the copyright, and it's MIT licensed
[05:25] <sabdfl> separately, let's figure out the parameters for getting upstreams direct access to their packages in ubuntu
[05:26] <imbrandon> sabdfl, yup, i'm all for doing that ( and in 30 minutes i have the next 4 days off from "work" ) but it seems at a glance we still have lic issues that keybuk mentioned a few months ago
[05:26] <imbrandon> we need to get that right first
[05:26] <Lamego> geser, I was refering to Debain disto releases, not the MOTU releases ;)
[05:26] <imbrandon> sabdfl, +5 
[05:26] <lupine_85> imbrandon: I've got a fortnight with nothing to do ;)
[05:26] <Lamego> erm, Debian
[05:27] <imbrandon> is the teamspeak server still up sabdfl ?
[05:27] <Amaranth> and, hey, while we're all here talking about license problems... :)
[05:27] <lupine_85> so, at the moment it seems .c files have the Novell header, but packages have an AUTHORS and COPYING that's up to date
[05:27] <Amaranth> can someone review the sponsor the upload of gnome-compiz-manager in revu?
[05:28] <Amaranth> the one that got uploaded had license issues, new one should fix them
[05:28] <imbrandon> lupine_85, good we can work with that, at leaste its a start
[05:28] <imbrandon> lupine_85, what about the availibility of pricechild ? you know?
[05:28] <sabdfl> imbrandon: not sure
[05:28] <lupine_85> PriceChild is on the train home right now
[05:28] <imbrandon> ok
[05:29] <lupine_85> Dunno when he'll be in
[05:29] <sabdfl> cool! thanks for working on this
[05:29] <imbrandon> np, its not ready yet, but we'll see if we can whip it into shape today
[05:30] <lupine_85> btw sabdfl, sorry to have to turn you down for UDS but studies come first ;)
[05:30] <geser> Amaranth: it's already upload and sitting now in the NEW queue: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+queue?queue_state=0&queue_text=gnome
[05:30] <sabdfl> lupine_85: fairy nuff
[05:30] <imbrandon> lupine_85, ok lets do this, i will be at my home office in 1.5 hours, if geser ( and sabdfl if wanted but i dont see why ) and you want , we'll either a) get on a conf call on my dime , or b) use the TS voip and get this rolling this afternoon
[05:31] <Amaranth> geser: pretty sure that's the one that had license issues
[05:31] <lupine_85> I can do VoIP :)
[05:31] <sabdfl> i have a conf facility too we can use
[05:31] <sabdfl> ping me on IRC
[05:31] <imbrandon> ok
[05:31] <Amaranth> geser: that's why it's still sitting after a month, according to seb128
[05:31] <imbrandon> sounds great
[05:31] <imbrandon> yea , /me might not make it to spain this time, but i'll be in portland and boston ;)
[05:32] <geser> Amaranth: ah, are you aware that universe is now in FF? or doesn't it apply to this package?
[05:32] <imbrandon> anyhow ok, i'm gonna finish my work work and i'll ping you lupine_85 when i get to my home office
[05:32] <Amaranth> geser: dunno, seb128 told me to get it reviewed and uploaded
[05:32] <lupine_85> ok, no worries. hopefully PriceChild will be around then
[05:33] <imbrandon> meantime if you would see about those .c/.h headers
[05:33] <imbrandon> thats one less thing to worry about
[05:33] <lupine_85> sure... so just replace with the GPL header & add the contents of AUTHORS to the bottom?
[05:33] <geser> Amaranth: as new packages don't get into universe till release, I'd guess most review isn't top on most people's lists
[05:34] <sladen> lupine_85: is that legally okay to do;  is it also available under the GPL license (even if the headers don't currently say so?)
[05:34] <lupine_85> sladen: compiz was licensed under MIT
[05:34] <lupine_85> Beryl clobbered it to GPL
[05:35] <sladen> lupine_85: gotcha.  
[05:35] <Amaranth> and now it sounds like they want to go back to MIT, fun all around :)
[05:35] <lupine_85> heh, yeah
[05:35] <lupine_85> got to love licensing
[05:35] <sladen> remember the "The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be
[05:35] <sladen> included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software."
[05:36] <sladen> moo, gah, excessively complicated
[05:36] <lupine_85> Yeah, probably why the GPL header wasn't added in the first place - we can't remove that one
[05:36] <sladen> did Beryl leave any evidence of the MIT copyright, or just paste the GPL in over the to?
[05:36] <lupine_85> so add GPL to the bottom of it?
[05:37] <lupine_85> sladen: the header currently in the files is "permission to use, coy, m
[05:37] <lupine_85>  * Permission to use, copy, modify, distribute, and sell this software
[05:37] <lupine_85>  * and its documentation for any purpose is hereby granted
[05:38] <lupine_85> I'm thinking after the huge caps, the GPL license
[05:38] <sladen> so there should be   (C) Copyright foobar, 2005;  then Permission to use...;
[05:38] <lupine_85> sladen: yep, 
[05:38] <lupine_85> ah
[05:38] <sladen> yup, okay, do that.  And if anyone complainins we can enquire what they'd /like/ us to do :)
[05:39] <lupine_85> Copyright notice in all copies; permission notice in supporting documentation
[05:39] <lupine_85> So as long as we keep the copyright (c) 2005 novell, we can move the rest into an "upstream copyright" file?
[05:40] <lupine_85> IANAL, at all ;)
[05:41] <sladen> I think the secret is to do it, and wait until somebody suggests anything better, yes
[05:42] <lupine_85> Hmm. Well, for emerald (based on MIT g-w-d), copyright novell was kept, and the MIT/Novell header removed
[05:42] <sladen> do that then
[05:42] <sladen> the one definte is not to remove the copyright notice
[05:42] <lupine_85> yeah, I know for a fact that davidr doesn't have a problem with that particular style
[05:42] <lupine_85> ok... time for a 50-line sed script ;)
[05:43] <sladen> that's one way
[05:43] <lupine_85> one way, or the best way? ;)
[05:49] <sabdfl> sed-meister in the house
[05:54] <imbrandon> heh
[06:00] <jabra> any developers around ?
[06:00] <geser> jabra: sure
[06:00] <imbrandon> jup
[06:02] <jabra> geser: I have a package that is in Debian, there was a bug and I recently made a fix for it and had it accepted into the release. Will it be automatically updated for feisty ?
[06:02] <geser> jabra: not until requested
[06:02] <geser> jabra: which package is it?
[06:02] <jabra> ok how can I request it
[06:03] <jabra> one sec i'll get you the info
[06:04] <jabra> http://people.debian.org/~terpstra/message/20070316.013319.8d7b6948.en.html
[06:04] <jabra> package is called pbnj
[06:04] <jabra> http://packages.qa.debian.org/p/pbnj.html
[06:05] <jabra> 2.04-2 was accepted into testing for debian, thus I just wanted to make sure it was accepted into feisty
[06:06] <imbrandon> lupine_85 , sladen , sabdfl , geser : just fyi might make sure these issues are taken care of also, this was from the last upload , http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/10778/ and http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/10779/
[06:06] <jabra> geser: let me know if you need anymore information
[06:07] <sabdfl> thanks imbrandon
[06:07] <geser> jabra: I've filed just a sync request as bug #93150
[06:07] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 93150 in pbnj "[Sync Request]  Sync pbnj (2.04-2) from Debian unstable (main)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/93150
[06:08] <MagnusR> Hi! I have a question about giving a version number to a package. I will try to package apparmor for ubuntu. Unfortunately, they seems not to have any real version numbers and I must use the latest from their subversion archive, how do I give my packages a version number?
[06:08] <jabra> cool thanks
[06:09] <imbrandon> MagnusR, normaly something like apparmor_<lastversion>+svn<date>
[06:09] <imbrandon> or similar
[06:09] <jabra> tecnically it is already in etch so you may want to note that too
[06:09] <jabra> geser: ^
[06:09] <jabra> if anyone has any concern
[06:09] <imbrandon> ok, headed to home, back in a few minutes ( ~30 to 45 )
[06:09] <jdong> MagnusR: I've seen 0.0.0~svn2007010203, 0.0.0-svn, 0.0.0+svn
[06:09] <imbrandon> you dont want to use -
[06:10] <jabra> geser: thanks for your help
[06:10] <geser> jabra: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SyncRequestProcess for a description of the process
[06:10] <MagnusR> imbrandon, jdong: ok thanks. 
[06:10] <imbrandon> it will cause upgrade problems if say 1.0+svn<date> releases then 1.0 regualrly and you use a dash instread of + or ~
[06:11] <imbrandon> ok really afk, back in a few
[06:11] <jabra> k
[06:11] <jabra> so the sync will be automatic now ?
[06:12] <geser> jabra: due to the current state of feisty development there are also additional restrictions which pbnj passes
[06:12] <MagnusR> A related question: Normaly I run dh-make on a tar file. In this case I do not have a tar file, What is smartest way; create a tar file or use another tool?
[06:12] <jabra> ok 
[06:12] <geser> jabra: more or less, an archive admin needs to process it at start a script or something like that
[06:13] <jabra> ok
[06:14] <joejaxx> hello jabra :)
[06:14] <jabra> hi
[06:15] <joejaxx> how is pbnj coming along?
[06:16] <jabra> coming 
[06:16] <jabra> I just fixed a bug in debian and I'm getting the fix into feisty
[06:16] <jabra> there was a dep missing from the package
[06:18] <joejaxx> jabra: ah ok nice
[06:19] <jabra> well not really but nice that I received the bug report and am gettin it fixed before both releases
[06:29] <lupine_85> ah, there you are
[06:29] <lupine_85> PriceChild: imbrandon is going to help us out with getting beryl up to scratch
[06:29] <PriceChild> :)
[06:30] <lupine_85> s/he'll be back in a little bit
[06:30] <PriceChild> Ok
[06:30] <lupine_85> in the meantime, I'm trying to get a 40-line sed script working, lol
[06:30] <PriceChild> :)
[06:45] <sabdfl> let me know if we need a voice call today
[06:46] <lupine_85> sabdfl: we're waiting on imbrandon :)
[06:47] <sabdfl> ok
[06:51] <bluefoxicy> hmm
[06:52] <bluefoxicy> is universe in charge of Xen?
[06:52] <geser> bluefoxicy: afaik zul takes care of xen
[06:52] <bluefoxicy> nods
[06:53] <bluefoxicy> I'm curious if there's any real effort there to get Ubuntu focused on Xen (pretty much kernel/installer/grub work I think...)
[06:54] <Laser_away> bluefoxicy: zul has been doing that
[06:54] <bluefoxicy> Personally my ideal world is Linus puts Xen in mainline and everything default installs as a Xen Dom0 with non-Xen installs being "special" but I'm kinda nuts :P
[06:54] <ivoks> bluefoxicy: luckily, kvm is already in main :)
[06:54] <ivoks> bluefoxicy: and works better than xen in my case :D
[06:54] <bluefoxicy> ivoks:  yes :)  But I don't have hardware.
[06:55] <ivoks> only thing that doesn't work with kvm is ubuntu :)
[06:55] <ivoks> windows works, redhat too, but ubuntu... :D
[06:55] <jabra> geser: should I nominate the bug for the feisty release ?
[06:55] <bluefoxicy> ivoks:  i call that a kvm bug.
[06:56] <ivoks> bluefoxicy: well, hard to tell
[06:56] <bluefoxicy> unless Ubuntu is probing and looking at KVM like "I don't want this" it shouldn't break
[06:56] <bluefoxicy> the point was to make unaltered OSes work :P
[06:56] <geser> jabra: no hurry, it's still time to the release
[06:57] <ivoks> bluefoxicy: problem is with splash image on 'booting from cd'
[06:57] <ivoks> bluefoxicy: it crashes kvm :/
[06:58] <geser> jabra: archive days are three times a week (mon, wed, fri) when one of the archive admins goes through the bugs for the archive admin team
[06:58] <ivoks> anyway... take care...
[06:58] <jabra> ah ok cool
[06:58] <jabra> so it if it isn't done by like thursday next week then i'll nominate it 
[06:59] <jabra> sound good ?
[06:59] <phaidros> how to find out about a package (wired-0.5) which is said (in the forums) on the way to feisty?
[07:00] <geser> jabra: afaik nomitations are used for packages in main and not universe
[07:01] <jabra> ah ok
[07:01] <geser> jabra: but you could try to bribe an archive admin to process the sync :)
[07:01] <jabra> you mean to get pbnj into main ?
[07:01] <phaidros> is launchpad the place to look for? cannot find the package there.. 
[07:01] <geser> to get it synced from Debian
[07:02] <LaserJock> phaidros: it could be in the NEW queue
[07:02] <jabra> well i'm sure it will happen 
[07:02] <phaidros> LaserJock: as I dunno the structure: where in the NEW qeueue?
[07:02] <jabra> if it doesn't happen then i'll jump into irc and see if I can find an admin or something
[07:02] <phaidros> s/in/is/
[07:03] <geser> phaidros: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+queue
[07:03] <LaserJock> phaidros: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+queue?queue_state=0&queue_text=wired
[07:04] <LaserJock> phaidros: that means it's waiting for an archive admin to approve it. I'm not positive it will be for Feisty but it's at least in the queue
[07:05] <phaidros> so, how could I test it and recommend as working? (in gentoo small branches like gentoo-osx such things where done by mailinglist)?
[07:08] <joejaxx> welcome back
[07:08] <imbrandon> heya joejaxx 
[07:09] <joejaxx> hello imbrandon 
[07:09] <imbrandon> heard your gonna make it to spain ;)
[07:09] <jussi01> can someone tell me how to make pbuilder use packages that arent in the repos but are dependencies?
[07:09] <astinus> imbrandon: Now all you need is good weather!
[07:09] <imbrandon> astinus, ;)
[07:10] <joejaxx> imbrandon: :)
[07:10] <imbrandon> jussi01, you can use "pbuilder login --save-after-login" then install them
[07:10] <lupine_85> hey imbrandon
[07:10] <imbrandon> but that will taint your pbuilder base, so back it up
[07:10] <lupine_85> PriceChild is going to be back in ~20 minutes
[07:10] <imbrandon> ( e.g. base.tar.gz )
[07:10] <jussi01> ok, thanks imbrandon 
[07:10] <imbrandon> lupine_85, ok no hurries, i will be here all afternoon
[07:11] <lupine_85> ok :)
[07:11] <lupine_85> I'm going through beryl-core licensing right now... what a mess, in places
[07:11] <lupine_85> and sed didn'ty want to be my friend :'(
[07:11] <imbrandon> haha yea
[07:12] <astinus> imbrandon: Could I steal a couple minutes of your time later?
[07:12] <imbrandon> astinus, sure
[07:12] <lupine_85> good news, a lot of the others aren't anywhere near as bad
[07:12] <astinus> imbrandon: /msg?
[07:12] <Seveas> stgraber, love that desktop background, can you mail it to me :)
[07:13] <stgraber> Seveas: of course
[07:13] <Seveas> thanks! dennis@u.c
[07:13] <imbrandon> lupine_85, join #beryl-fasttrack ( also geser pricechild and anyone else on this sprint )
[07:13] <imbrandon> so we dont clutter here any more than needed
[07:13] <lupine_85> ok
[07:13] <imbrandon> moins Seveas 
[07:13] <Seveas> ola imbrandon 
[07:14] <blackskad> #beryl-fasttrack
[07:18] <imbrandon> Seveas, fwiw that background is on art.ubuntu.com iirc
[07:19] <Seveas> imbrandon, you know I'm lazy :)
[07:19] <imbrandon> ;)
[07:20] <imbrandon> astinus, yes thats fine
[07:20] <imbrandon> astinus, or here, or jabber or email
[07:20] <imbrandon> astinus, i'm easy
[07:27] <jussi01> imbrandon, sorry to bother further, how do I get to my files from root in pbuilder?
[07:28] <imbrandon> jussi01, use bindmount ( man pbuilder for a howto )
[07:28] <imbrandon> and no worries , i dont mind being bothered sometimes ;)
[07:28] <jussi01> thanks a million
[07:29] <geser> jussi01: or copy them simply from outside the pbuilder into the pbuilder (see /var/cache/pbuilder/build/)
[07:30] <jussi01> ahh, great!!
[07:30] <jussi01> thanks
[07:42] <tsmithe> why oh why oh why
[07:49] <LaserJock> tsmithe: that's what I was thinking ;-)
[07:49] <tsmithe> LaserJock, you going to uds-sevilla?
[07:51] <LaserJock> tsmithe: some of it probably
[07:51] <tsmithe> lucky you
[07:51] <tsmithe> i had to turn down sponsorship
[07:51] <LaserJock> I probably should but I'll work it out ;-)
[07:52] <tsmithe> well, /me is only 15. don't think family would be comfortable with it
[07:52] <LaserJock> I have to get back early becuase of my little brother's wedding
[07:52] <tsmithe> :)
[07:52] <LaserJock> ah
[07:53] <LaserJock> yeah, I guess that's at least something nice about being "old"
[07:53] <tsmithe> yep
[07:54] <tsmithe> "old" in free software isn't "old" in real life, though
[07:55] <LaserJock> I remember when I first got to grad school
[07:56] <LaserJock> and everybody wanted to go to the casinos or sports bars after work
[07:56] <tsmithe> what's "grad school"?
[07:56] <LaserJock> and I couldn't go cause I wasn't 21 yet
[07:56] <LaserJock> graduate school, after a bachelors degree
[07:56] <tsmithe> aha
[07:56] <LaserJock> not really sure what you're equivalent is
[07:57] <tsmithe> you were young, then
[07:57] <tsmithe> in England, when you're 18 i think pretty much everything is open to you
[07:59] <LaserJock> in the US usually 18 gives you everything but alcohol and car rentals ;-)
[07:59] <tsmithe> wow...
[07:59] <LaserJock> even last year I had to have a "junior" grad student rent a car for me :-)
[08:00] <stgraber> tsmithe: Same kind of problem for me, I'd have been really interested to go to UDS but as I'm not 18 yet and parents aren't really comfortable with me leaving house and going far from it for a week I'll have to stay at home and follow on the Internet :(
[08:00] <LaserJock> I'm a 5th year grad student and still the youngest
[08:00] <tsmithe> so how old are you? you must be amazingly bright to be at "grad school" if you're not 21
[08:00] <tsmithe> stgraber, well, i often go away. but that's usually with friends or school
[08:00] <LaserJock> I'm ... 25 now
[08:01] <LaserJock> been at university for 9  years
[08:01] <tsmithe> hehe. ten years older than me
[08:01] <LaserJock> so I've been at the uni since you were 6
[08:02] <stgraber> LaserJock: :)
[08:02] <ScottK> LaserJock: You are a year shy of being two decades younger than me.  I have a daughter tsmithe's age.  You have no need to feel old.
[08:03] <tsmithe> :)
[08:03] <LaserJock> ScottK: sweet, thanks :-)
[08:03] <tsmithe> LaserJock, you went to uni when you were 16??
[08:03] <tsmithe> woah
[08:03] <LaserJock> yeah
[08:03] <tsmithe> woah
[08:04] <LaserJock> got a Bachelor of Arts in Environmental Science with a dual major in Chemistry and Applied Mathematical Science
[08:04] <tsmithe> when you were, what, 18?
[08:04] <LaserJock> which means almost nothing
[08:04] <LaserJock> but it's fun to say
[08:05] <tsmithe> well, it's very impressive
[08:05] <Toadstool> g'morning everybody!
[08:05] <stgraber> hi Toadstool 
[08:05] <LaserJock> tsmithe: they kinda bent some rules so I started my degree when I was 16
[08:05] <Toadstool> hi stgraber 
[08:05] <LaserJock> graduated when I was 20
[08:05] <tsmithe> did you not feel uncomfortable being so young?
[08:06] <tsmithe> (my pa said he was - he went to uni when he was 17)
[08:06] <LaserJock> then I've been working on my PhD for the last 5 years in Physical Chemistry
[08:06] <tsmithe> hiya Toadstool 
[08:06] <Toadstool> hi tsmithe 
[08:06] <tsmithe> LaserJock, i wish they'd teach chemistry properly in british schools
[08:06] <LaserJock> tsmithe: not a whole lot, it was a small school in my home town
[08:06] <tsmithe> we don't actually do anything interesting
[08:06] <LaserJock> yeah
[08:06] <tsmithe> kinda puts me off
[08:07] <LaserJock> almost all text books teach at least 50 year old chemistry
[08:07] <tsmithe> (the only science i find interesting at school is biology)
[08:07] <tsmithe> so what do you do working for 5 years on a PhD?
[08:08] <tsmithe> it's a long time - and isn't it all towards one goal?
[08:08] <LaserJock> well the first 2-3 are taking classes and passing exams
[08:08] <tsmithe> uhuh
[08:08] <LaserJock> then after you've been admitted into PhD Candidacy then it's just research and writing your dissertation
[08:09] <LaserJock> I'm at the stage now where I'm trying to kinda finish stuff of and get everything written up
[08:09] <tsmithe> so what are you researching?
[08:09] <tsmithe> (I don't care if it makes no sense to me :) )
[08:09] <ScottK> If you want to understand the process, look here: http://www.phdcomics.com/comics.php
[08:09] <ScottK> :-)
[08:09] <Toadstool> heh
[08:10] <tsmithe> hehe
[08:10] <LaserJock> tsmithe: my research is on detecting the orientation of molecular machinery with lasers
[08:10] <LaserJock> that's the really really compact version any way
[08:10] <tsmithe> hehe
[08:10] <tsmithe> sounds fun
[08:11] <LaserJock> I'm part of a project designing, creating, and detecting what could be the worlds smallest light-driver motor
[08:11] <LaserJock> *driven
[08:11] <tsmithe> light-driver?
[08:11] <tsmithe> ah
[08:11] <tsmithe> light-driven motor?
[08:11] <tsmithe> how's that work? wait... it's probably extremely complex
[08:11] <LaserJock> yeah, most motors on the molecular scale are driven by chemical reactions
[08:12] <LaserJock> our's is driven purely by light and physics :-)
[08:12] <LaserJock> the light excites one part of the motor, which in turn makes it change shape, which in turn makes it rotate about an axis
[08:12] <tsmithe> ooh clever
[08:13] <LaserJock> let me see if I still have a movie of it
[08:13] <tsmithe> my main motivation at school is that if i slack off, i won't be able to get to that stage
[08:14] <LaserJock> tsmithe: that's a good motivator :-)
[08:14] <tsmithe> yup :) works well
[08:14] <LaserJock> tsmithe: but you also have to be a bit self motivated too
[08:15] <tsmithe> eh?
[08:15] <LaserJock> most scientific research is really boring to do
[08:15] <LaserJock> the end goals are cool
[08:15] <tsmithe> i get straight As, so i don't think i'm in a pickle
[08:15] <lupine_85> LaserJock++
[08:15] <LaserJock> but it takes a lot day-to-day boring work
[08:15] <tsmithe> lupine_85, good luck on getting this MOTUship
[08:15] <LaserJock> I've been working on the same molecule for about 3 years
[08:15] <tsmithe> LaserJock, like package maintaining :P bugs vs cool features
[08:16] <tsmithe> woah
[08:16] <tsmithe> that's a very long time
[08:16] <LaserJock> trying to figure out how to detect if it can absorb light in a certain way
[08:16] <LaserJock> nothin' fancy
[08:16] <tsmithe> that's 94,608,000 seconds
[08:16] <LaserJock> but it builds up to a larger, and much cooler goal
[08:18] <tsmithe> yup
[08:19] <LaserJock> tsmithe: try http://laserjock.us/ubuntu/360nRotate-slow-loop.mov
[08:19] <tsmithe> that better be an open source format
[08:19] <LaserJock> hah
[08:19] <LaserJock> I have no idea actually
[08:19] <LaserJock> I think it's quicktime
[08:20] <tsmithe> pah
[08:20] <LaserJock> I've got a PowerPoint file if you want that ;-)
[08:21] <tsmithe> noooo!
[08:21] <tsmithe> hi cbx33 
[08:21] <cbx33> hey tsmithe 
[08:21] <tsmithe> i must say LaserJock, i think my brain is better at a graphical represenation of your description than that film
[08:22] <LaserJock> haha
[08:22] <LaserJock> probably
[08:22] <tsmithe> can you do me a better one?
[08:22] <LaserJock> but those are computational chemistry results
[08:22] <LaserJock> it's not just a cartoon
[08:23] <stgraber> LaserJock: Ogg/Theora version of your video is only 587K instead of 2.1M :)
[08:23] <LaserJock> stgraber: that's cool
[08:23] <LaserJock> too bad I'm the only one that'd use it :(
[08:24] <LaserJock> ScottK: yeah, I want me one of them ;-)
[08:24] <stgraber> LaserJock: yep, last time I tried to read a ogg theora file on Windows I've spent half an hour to find the right codec :)
[08:24] <LaserJock> I mostly deal with macs
[08:24] <LaserJock> my boss can't stand Windows/MS
[08:25] <LaserJock> used to be hard core Linux
[08:25] <LaserJock> in fact one of the only big Linux advocates on campus
[08:25] <LaserJock> now he's all Apple and OS X
[08:25] <stgraber> at least it's an Unix-based OS
[08:25] <LaserJock> that's why he uses it
[08:26] <LaserJock> he can still run fvwm+emacs
[08:26] <stgraber> and most of the Linux apps can work using Fink or things like that
[08:26] <phaidros> yeah and gentoo-osx is also a nice one ..
[08:28] <LaserJock> so these days I spend most of my time in OS X ssh'd to my Ubuntu machines
[08:29] <LaserJock> ScottK: btw, this is what I use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nd:YAG
[08:29] <tsmithe> lupine_85, ping
[08:29] <ScottK> Where's the kaboom.  I was expecting an Earth shattering kaboom?
[08:29] <tsmithe> LaserJock, i know they are computed. that's why you can do me a better one :)
[08:30] <lupine_85> pong, tsmithe
[08:30] <lupine_85> sup?
[08:30] <LaserJock> tsmithe: heh, that move probably took about 1 week on a computational cluster
[08:30] <tsmithe> lupine_85, do you have ubuntu membership?
[08:30] <tsmithe> LaserJock, so? :P
[08:30] <lupine_85> I think the technical term for what I am is ubuntu supporter
[08:30] <lupine_85> I signed some CoC at some point
[08:30] <tsmithe> ok - thanks
[08:31] <LaserJock> ScottK: no kaboom, but I do burn through business cards a fair amount
[08:31] <LaserJock> ScottK: it'll still blow the retina right off your eye if you got a direct hit though :/
[08:32] <ScottK> OK.  Then eye shattering kaboom.  I can live with that.  That and the potential for fires.
[08:32] <LaserJock> heh
[08:33] <LaserJock> the power supply is the biggest danger
[08:33] <LaserJock> I think in ours there's 6 large (bigger than a soda can) capacitors adding up to something like 50kV
[08:34] <ScottK> Cool.
[08:34] <LaserJock> the prof next door had one discarge on him once
[08:34] <LaserJock> blew him across the room and out the window
[08:36] <ScottK> Wow.  I remember working with a guy on some electrical stuff and he got zapped with 440v AC.  I learned what the smell of cooked human flesh was that day (smells like chicken), but he was fine.
[08:36] <ScottK> How'd the prof next door fare with his 'experiment'?
[08:36] <LaserJock> fine I guess
[08:36] <LaserJock> luckily it was a 1st floor lab
[08:38] <ScottK> A long time ago I shot these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_missile for a living.  Those had a satisfying kaboom.
[08:38] <LaserJock> yes, quite :-)
[08:38] <sistpoty> hi folks
[08:39] <ScottK> hi sistpoty.
[08:39] <sistpoty> hi ScottK
[08:39] <sistpoty> LaserJock: we've been thinking about filing bugs against ubuntu as RFP's during the last MC meeting... what do you think of it?
[08:41] <LaserJock> sistpoty: oh yes
[08:41] <LaserJock> you're here
[08:41] <LaserJock> I saw that and wanted to talk to you about it
[08:42] <LaserJock> I got a feature into the LP Beta
[08:42] <LaserJock> that allows us to preload the +filebug page with a tag
[08:42] <sistpoty> cool
[08:42] <LaserJock> so we can give people a URL that will automatically tag it
[08:42] <LaserJock> when I talked with the LP guys
[08:42] <LaserJock> they suggested that tagging would be the way to go
[08:43] <LaserJock> anyway, I was going to send out an email that we could start migrating the Candidates wiki page to LP
[08:43] <sistpoty> great! please do it ;)
[08:43] <LaserJock> I thought it might be a good "bitesize" task
[08:44] <sistpoty> definitely
[08:44] <LaserJock> so until LP 1.0 comes out we'll need to manually tag
[08:45] <sistpoty> any ETA?
[08:45] <sistpoty> (just curious)
[08:45] <ScottK> It's on the horizon?
[08:46] <ScottK> The horizon being the line that no matter how long you continue to approach it, you never reach it.  ;-)
[08:46] <sistpoty> haha
[08:46] <sistpoty> oh, that reminds me of my thesis... damn *g*
[08:46] <LaserJock> I was told something around the 1 month mark
[08:46] <sistpoty> hm... that even more :P
[08:47] <LaserJock> I'm guessing it'll be out by the time Feisty is released
[08:47] <sistpoty> so I'll need to reach the horizon in about that time *g*
[08:47] <LaserJock> but no promises
[08:47] <sistpoty> sounds great
[08:47] <LaserJock> what we *do* need is what tag to use?
[08:47] <sistpoty> how about RFP?
[08:47] <LaserJock> hmm
[08:47] <LaserJock> that's kinda cryptic
[08:48] <sistpoty> as long is it's not as long as "please_include_that_package_into_the_ubuntu_repositories_kthxbye" I'm happy with anything ;)
[08:49] <LaserJock> in the original bug I've got universe-request
[08:49] <LaserJock> but that could be taken as meaning something more like u-u-s
[08:49] <sistpoty> maybe package-request? software-request?
[08:51] <LaserJock> hmm
[08:52] <jdong> sistpoty: liek plz pkg vmware s3rv3r omg lolz kthxbye
[08:52] <sistpoty> hehe
[08:53] <LaserJock> jdong: maybe it' should be omgponies-please-please-kthxbye
[08:53] <jdong> :)
[08:54] <tsmithe> @pony LaserJock 
[08:54] <tsmithe> pah
[08:54] <sistpoty> new tag defined: pony :)
[08:54] <tsmithe> \o/
 tsmithe: haha, pon-ed.
[08:54] <tsmithe> pah
[08:56] <LaserJock> sistpoty: maybe request-for-package would be the way to go
[08:56] <LaserJock> to tie into Debian, etc.
[08:56] <sistpoty> sounds sane
[08:59] <LaserJock> ok, a quick grep shows that Candidates has roughly 450 items
[09:00] <sistpoty> a bigger bite then ;)
[09:01] <LaserJock> well, it shouldn't be to hard to just look at a few, see if they are even plausible (not already in Debian/Ubuntu and are packagable)
[09:03] <sistpoty> yep
[09:03] <LaserJock> I don't even want to look
[09:04] <jdong> Beryl Beryl!
[09:04] <jdong> oh wait that's actually happening.
[09:05] <sistpoty> LaserJock: I hope I got it right this time :P
[09:05] <LaserJock> Mark could have had better timing for us
[09:06] <LaserJock> but that's the way it goes
[09:06] <sistpoty> I guess I'll have gray hair after the MC period, or will end up with nerves of steel *g*
[09:06] <LaserJock> seems completely unecessary, IMO
[09:06] <sistpoty> (or both)
[09:07] <LaserJock> good sponsorship should be just fine
[09:07] <LaserJock> what we really need are Freeze exceptions filed
[09:07] <LaserJock> not fast-tracked MOTUships
[09:07] <sistpoty> hm... the restricted upload rights for a set of packages might still be a worthwhile thing.
[09:08] <LaserJock> ugg
[09:08] <LaserJock> I think that's a horrible idea :(
[09:08] <LaserJock> personally
[09:08] <sistpoty> well, I guess I wrote pretty much of what I think in my last mail
[09:08] <LaserJock> we become worse than Debian
[09:09] <sistpoty> in what respect?
[09:09] <LaserJock> not only do you "own" packages, but you are restricted in in the archive itself
[09:09] <LaserJock> giving upstreams some "credit" towards MOTUship seems sort of logical
[09:10] <LaserJock> especially if they've been providing Ubuntu packages
[09:10] <LaserJock> but we don't even really fast-track DDs this way
[09:11] <sistpoty> TB did, at least that was my impression, and imo that's also a good thing, since NM is particular harder ;)
[09:11] <LaserJock> well, we don't fast track that much is what I'm saying
[09:11] <LaserJock> a DD doesn't just show up one day to the TB meeting and say "I want MOTU"
[09:11] <sistpoty> ah, yep
[09:12] <LaserJock> they certainly get credit for the Debian work
[09:12] <LaserJock> but it's not automatic MOTUship
[09:12] <LaserJock> I just don't see how sponsorship is that big of a barrier
[09:13] <LaserJock> especially since we have a few MOTUs that seem to be interested in the packages
[09:14] <LaserJock> PriceChild and lupine_85 are on their way to MOTU I think
[09:14] <LaserJock> I've seen both of them around
[09:14] <LaserJock> I just don't see the pressure to bypass sponsorship
[09:14] <LaserJock> it's only one extra step
[09:14] <geser> me neither
[09:14] <sistpoty> well, I'm no big fan of that fast-tracking either
[09:14] <LaserJock> and a good one because it'll give them feedback
[09:15] <LaserJock> and help them get aquanted with the processes
[09:15] <ScottK> It seems to me that the big problem with Beryl was licensing and that would get them at the archive admin if it didn't here first.
[09:15] <LaserJock> I can see if nobody was willing to sponsor
[09:15] <LaserJock> ScottK: they've already been there
[09:15] <geser> the problem with beryl was licensing and not a problem with our sponsorship
[09:15] <LaserJock> they just didn't get it back before the Freeze
[09:15] <lupine_85> licensing should now be fixed
[09:15] <ScottK> And from what I understood of today's conversation, they are still fixing that.
[09:15] <LaserJock> so if we want a Freeze exception fine
[09:16] <sistpoty> LaserJock: did you look at my last mail on ubuntu-motu yet? what do you think of that proposal?
[09:17] <sistpoty> (apart from that I really had that idea while showering *g*)
[09:18] <LaserJock> sistpoty: well, my position is: We need a freeze exception not a motuship exception
[09:18] <LaserJock> there is nothing wrong with our current process, at least where beryl is concerned
[09:19] <LaserJock> the proper way to get beryl into feisty is to get a freeze exception
[09:19] <sistpoty> LaserJock: well, I particularly didn't want to answer to the beryl question, but rather related to the general proposal
[09:19] <LaserJock> lupine_85 and Pricechild working with imbrandon and whoever else wants to help out should be sufficient
[09:19] <sistpoty> yes
[09:19] <LaserJock> sistpoty: I don't particularly like it. Its an interesting idea and I'm glad you proposed it. I just think it's overly complicated
[09:20] <LaserJock> and I haven't seen the need for it
[09:20] <sistpoty> hehe... well I'm a little bit pedantic *g*
[09:20] <sistpoty> s/litlle bit// 
[09:21] <LaserJock> I mean, we're talking about creating a whole new class of uploaders
[09:21] <LaserJock> should upstreams with packages in Main get to upload to Main?
[09:21] <sistpoty> I guess the thing I like about restricted upload rights is that ppl. can get a smell into motu-world and would hopefully enjoy it
[09:22] <geser> to much rules can look for the outsiders to complicated / to bureaucratic and scare them away
[09:22] <sistpoty> LaserJock: that's an interested question
[09:22] <sistpoty> intresting
[09:22] <LaserJock> If a person packages well enough that we let them upload to the archives
[09:22] <LaserJock> and they know enough of the policies and procedures to not break things
[09:22] <LaserJock> then they should be MOTU!
[09:23] <geser> a good upstream isn't automatically a good packager (but can become one after time)
[09:23] <ajmitch> morning
[09:23] <sistpoty> hi ajmitch
[09:23] <LaserJock> I consider MOTU to be the required level of knowledge of packaging and Ubuntu development to be trusted with Universe
[09:23] <geser> hi ajmitch
[09:24] <LaserJock> it has less to do with how much you know the software
[09:25] <LaserJock> sabdfl: are you still here?
[09:25] <sabdfl> hi
[09:25] <sistpoty> hi sabdfl
[09:25] <sabdfl> sec, lots of scrollback
[09:26] <gnomefreak> is java one of those things that can not be backported?
[09:26] <LaserJock> gnomefreak: it would probably depend on what's being backported exactly
[09:26] <gnomefreak> plugin,jre,bin and depends
[09:27] <LaserJock> gnomefreak: you'd probably want to talk to jdong about it. I'm really not sure how to handle that
[09:27] <gnomefreak> 1.4==no crash 1.6==no crash 1.5 crash every time :)
[09:27] <gnomefreak> k
[09:27] <LaserJock> oh
[09:28] <jdong> gnomefreak: I'm fine with backporting java....
[09:28] <LaserJock> I think our packages are independent, aren't they
[09:28] <jdong> they're slotted
[09:28] <jdong> yeah.
[09:28] <sistpoty> as long as it won't need a bootstrap of the toolchain :P
[09:28] <gnomefreak> jdong: let me talk it over with asac see if he wants to backport it. it will atleast fix bug 92880 if not more
[09:28] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 92880 in firefox "Firefox crashes with java applet" [High,Needs info]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/92880
[09:29] <sistpoty> (which is the reason I'd never let ghc6 through backports... would break everything)
[09:29] <sabdfl> LaserJock: it's true, good packaging is not solely based on how well you know the software
[09:29] <sabdfl> a good upstream on his own is still lost initially with packaging
[09:29] <LaserJock> sabdfl: do you think sponsoring is a problem in this case?
[09:29] <sabdfl> but if for example there are existing packages, and the upstream wants to make some tweaks, they will know exactly what to do
[09:30] <LaserJock> sabdfl: I would think that a Freeze exception is what's in order, not fast-tracking MOTUship
[09:30] <sabdfl> LaserJock: there are examples of items falling on the floor
[09:30] <sabdfl> we have folks who stopped because nobody responded
[09:30] <gnomefreak> jdong: maybe ill play with it this week build it in edgy chroot see if it does fix it permently on edgy and see where i go from there? do you want me to ping you if everything is a go fro backport?
[09:30] <sabdfl> i'm pretty disappointed that beryl did not naturally get into universe
[09:30] <LaserJock> sabdfl: we stopped because beryl people stopped giving us packages
[09:30] <jdong> gnomefreak: yeah please ping me; I'm like a 2-3 wks behind schedule in backports land
[09:30] <sabdfl> no - they stopped because they were told "someone in ubuntu would package it"
[09:31] <sabdfl> and nobody did
[09:31] <LaserJock> sabdfl: there was a large lack of communication
[09:31] <LaserJock> they were not told that
[09:31] <sabdfl> and it will happen again unless we address it
[09:31] <LaserJock> they were told that several people were working on it
[09:31] <sabdfl> i don't want upstreams being told "sorry, you don't know anything about packaging, go away"
[09:31] <LaserJock> and they should coordinate
[09:31] <sabdfl> it turns out they learned pretty quickly about packaging
[09:31] <gnomefreak> jdong: thats cool, thank you. give me a week or 2 if that is ok. im trying to get thunderbird-dbg or -dbgsym atm to play catch up on those bugs and ill play with this in mean time
[09:31] <sabdfl> their packages are good
[09:31] <LaserJock> sabdfl: we never tell them that
[09:31] <sabdfl> and would get even better given exposure and mentoring
[09:31] <sistpoty> sabdfl: however I guess fast-tracking motuship won't solve the communication problem
[09:32] <sabdfl> LaserJock: careful saying never - it does happen
[09:32] <LaserJock> I've not seen it here
[09:32] <sabdfl> no, it won't. there's always an obligation to communicate well
[09:32] <Toadstool> sabdfl: I don't see how the fast-tracking motuship will solve the communication issue
[09:32] <sabdfl> but the point is that we cannot ever appear to be a closed club
[09:32] <sabdfl> and i'm worried that is slightly the case
[09:32] <Toadstool> uh sistpoty was faster than me :p
[09:32] <LaserJock> sabdfl: I'm slightly irritated because we were encouraging the beryl people
[09:32] <LaserJock> sabdfl: and they never responded
[09:33] <sabdfl> LaserJock: it's their software, they just setup their own repo, and we lost out on the opportunity to build a good working relationship
[09:33] <LaserJock> sabdfl: we started doing some work on our own (imbrandon mostly I think)
[09:33] <sabdfl> imbrandon did the right thing, mentoring them
[09:33] <LaserJock> sabdfl: they came back and I told them that they should see what imbrandon was doing
[09:33] <LaserJock> other people came
[09:33] <sabdfl> but then it got dropped in terms of actually closing the deal and getting the package in, and getting them the ability to maintain it
[09:34] <LaserJock> I think there at least 3-4 seemingly independent efforts to get it in
[09:34] <LaserJock> and I specifically said that they should coordinate with each other
[09:34] <LaserJock> not that they should go away
[09:34] <sabdfl> the more such independent efforts, the less likely there is a real result!
[09:34] <sabdfl> just contention and tesion
[09:34] <sabdfl> tension
[09:34] <LaserJock> right
[09:34] <LaserJock> we were trying to help the process
[09:34] <sabdfl> upstreams have a natural right to take the lead
[09:34] <LaserJock> fine
[09:34] <sabdfl> they do need to learn about our processes
[09:34] <LaserJock> but the put packages up
[09:34] <sabdfl> they do need to fit in
[09:34] <LaserJock> they got rejected
[09:34] <sabdfl> they can't demand that OTHER people fit in with them
[09:35] <LaserJock> we asked them to fix them and try again
[09:35] <sabdfl> LaserJock: and the result was that the learning, the development, just moved somewhere else
[09:35] <LaserJock> we didn't tell them they couldn't
[09:35] <sabdfl> that's a failure of our process, not their work
[09:35] <LaserJock> we didn't tell them they weren't working
[09:35] <lupine_85> LaserJock: who put the packages up?
[09:35] <LaserJock> lupine_85: I have no idea, Quinn at one time
[09:35] <sabdfl> shortly we will have a place where ANYBODY can publish packages
[09:35] <sabdfl> that will make it easier
[09:35] <LaserJock> sabdfl: I really really disagree that this is a failure in our process
[09:36] <LaserJock> I've worked with both PriceChild and lupine_85 
[09:36] <sabdfl> LaserJock: look at the result. the same folk who started out making packages here ended up having to publish them at ubuntu.beryl-project.org
[09:36] <lupine_85> If I'd known beryl wasn't being actively worked on, I would have started back at rc1 time
[09:36] <LaserJock> sabdfl: they didn't *have* to, they chose too
[09:36] <LaserJock> because they package got rejected by ubuntu-archive the first time
[09:36] <LaserJock> *their
[09:37] <sabdfl> LaserJock: i would like us to get a process in place so people will CHOOSE to do that work here
[09:37] <LaserJock> fine
[09:37] <lupine_85> the repo has, erm, been up since before 0.1.0 ;)
[09:37] <LaserJock> I agree
[09:37] <LaserJock> but, IMO the proper way to do it is sponsorship and mentorship
[09:37] <sabdfl> in future,  we can say "publish them there, we will mentor you and asap get them into universe"
[09:37] <LaserJock> which we do
[09:37] <LaserJock> sabdfl: that's what we did!
[09:37] <sabdfl> there's a difference
[09:38] <LaserJock> they just got rejected the first time because of the license issue
[09:38] <sabdfl> "there" should be part of our infrastructure, not somewhere we are not watching
[09:38] <jdong> gnomefreak: yeah, that's fine; hopefully by that time -archive will be less busy and actually process backports :D
[09:38] <sabdfl> they went elsewhere, and we weren't watching, so they nearly never made it into feisty
[09:38] <sabdfl> that's a failure
[09:38] <LaserJock> sabdfl: they went on REVU
[09:38] <Toadstool> sabdfl: I'm pretty sure that beryl would be in fesity right now if the packagers had kept on working with us here instead of setting up an independent repo 'cuase of the licensing issue
[09:38] <gnomefreak> jdong: you got it :) ill let you know
[09:38] <LaserJock> we reviewed them
[09:38] <LaserJock> we uploaded them to Universe
[09:38] <sabdfl> Toadstool: they did what I would do - they just set it up themselves
[09:39] <gnomefreak> lupine_85: are they debianized already?
[09:39] <sabdfl> i think lupine_85 was perfectly sane to do that
[09:39] <LaserJock> I'm not sure what more were supposed to do!
[09:39] <sabdfl> it was *us* that failed
[09:39] <tsmithe> Seveas, ping!
[09:39] <lupine_85> gnomefreak: I have working debian/'s, yes
[09:39] <ajmitch> sabdfl: we can't just stick any old thing in universe - we did try & review them & give feedback
[09:39] <Lutin> sabdfl: can't get where we failed if it was a license issue
[09:39] <ScottK> sabdfl: I think you've got it wrong.
[09:39] <sabdfl> ajmitch: agreed - we need a process which accommodates exactly this evolution from "bad" to "ok" and does it HERE
[09:39] <sabdfl> not "go somewhere else"
[09:40] <LaserJock> we never said that!
[09:40] <ScottK> sabdfl: That's been exactly my experience here (get from bad to OK).
[09:40] <sabdfl> ScottK: if i had not intervened, we would not have beryl 0.2 in universe, how can I have it wrong?
[09:40] <ajmitch> sabdfl: and that's what we try to do with REVU - we can't know if people go & package stuff somewhere else
[09:40] <sistpoty> sabdfl: restricted upload rights particular won't solve that
[09:40] <sabdfl> ScottK: you were patient, most people are not
[09:40] <sabdfl> ajmitch: i want us to do better
[09:40] <sabdfl> we should have archives where this stuff can go
[09:40] <LaserJock> then hire Universe maintainers here then
[09:40] <sabdfl> so people don't have to set them up elsewhere
[09:40] <LaserJock> fix LP so we can use it for this
[09:41] <LaserJock> whatever
[09:41] <LaserJock> but we are all volunteers and we really try
[09:41] <LaserJock> we helped them
[09:41] <LaserJock> we sponsored them
[09:41] <ajmitch> sabdfl: you're basically just saying "work harder! review more!" - we try & do that
[09:41] <LaserJock> we *did* upload to universe
[09:41] <ScottK> sabdfl: Agreed that without you're intervention it wouldn't happen, but not because of a process fault in Universe.  After your last appearance here the Beryl folks went of to fix licensing issues in their code.
[09:41] <sabdfl> ajmitch: no, that's exactly what i am not saying
[09:41] <sabdfl> please listen
[09:41] <Seveas> tsmithe pong
[09:41] <geser> sabdfl: despite licensing or distibutional issues?
[09:41] <sabdfl> this is a social process, not a work process or a level-of-effort issue
[09:41] <tsmithe> ScottK, i tend to agree with you. i feel that they should have, if they really did want them in, and want it bad, and want to do it the correct way, then that would be how they have done it
[09:42] <sabdfl> socially, if you tell people "you are not good enough" they will GO AWAY
[09:42] <ScottK> If folks are unwilling to properly license their code, the LAST thing you want to give them is upload rights.
[09:42] <sabdfl> we don't want to do that
[09:42] <LaserJock> sabdfl: we didn't tel lthem to go away!
[09:42] <sistpoty> sabdfl: we never did that
[09:42] <tsmithe> we have perfectly good processes for granting upload rights. let's adhere to them, and make it easier for them to go through those processes
[09:42] <sabdfl> we want a place where that stuff can go from embryonic to successful and that place should be right here
[09:42] <sistpoty> and we are never doing this
[09:42] <Toadstool> sabdfl: we never said "you're not good enough" to anybody!
[09:42] <sabdfl> yes you did
[09:42] <sabdfl> you said "your packages are not good enough"
[09:42] <lupine_85> ScottK: no, I fixed the issues as soon as I became aware of them :) In fact it was imbrandon who pointed out the issues to me. Again, communication... the rejection reasons for the last set of packages never actually reached me. and that probably wasn't ubuntu's fault
[09:42] <LaserJock> no we didn't!!!
[09:42] <sabdfl> please understand i am not personally criticising anyone here
[09:43] <sabdfl> i think everyone has done a great job
[09:43] <LaserJock> sabdfl: did you listen to me though? We *did* upload their packages
[09:43] <sabdfl> but our process has a negative consequence that we need to fix
[09:43] <LaserJock> how is that saying "your packages are not good enough"?
[09:43] <ajmitch> sabdfl: sayiung that packages are not good enough is a *big* difference from saying that people aren't good enough - getting packages improved is a critical part of it
[09:43] <tsmithe> well, i don't think that this is the correct way to fix it!
[09:43] <sistpoty> sabdfl: sorry, but what would you say if a package is not ready to get uploaded to universe? 
[09:43] <jdong> Toadstool: frankly lots of processes around here imply it... I'm busy, that's not as important as the thing I'm doing now, etc.
[09:43] <sabdfl> sistpoty: i'm saying we need a place for those to cook
[09:43] <Toadstool> sabdfl: ultimately, those who said that the packages were not suitable for universe are the archive admins
[09:43] <sabdfl> not in universe, but still in motu
[09:43] <ajmitch> we can't just accept stuff because we're afraid that we'll chase people away
[09:44] <tsmithe> people need to learn what it takes, and if they have that, then they should be MOTU already, or they should find it easy to get there
[09:44] <sabdfl> so, there are two different issues here
[09:44] <ScottK> The only real problem is lack of MOTU resources at times.  That will get fixed with more volunteers or funding.
[09:44] <sistpoty> ScottK: ++
[09:44] <tsmithe> ScottK, ++++
[09:44] <LaserJock> ScottK: yep
[09:44] <sabdfl> the first issue is "where do new people making new packages that do not yet exist go?"
[09:44] <LaserJock> REVU and here
[09:44] <sabdfl> there are a bunch of issues there
[09:44] <sabdfl> licensing needs to get straight
[09:45] <sabdfl> the packages need to work
[09:45] <ajmitch> here, and they upload to REVU, where we review them & give feedback
[09:45] <sistpoty> and looking back hat how many packages we *got* in so far, and how many new people are around in recent times, I guess our processes aren't the worst 
[09:45] <sabdfl> they are usually crap initially, but they get better given exposure, bugs, feedback, testing...
[09:45] <sabdfl> that's one set of issues i want us to address
[09:45] <sabdfl> I think PPA's will make that a lot easier
[09:45] <LaserJock> yes
[09:45] <LaserJock> we haven't waiting for PPA
[09:45] <ajmitch> true, REVU doesn't build binary packages, but that was more a question of resources
[09:45] <LaserJock> *have, sorry
[09:45] <sabdfl> because we can say "publish your packages in the MOTU PPA"
[09:45] <jdong> when will PPA happen?
[09:46] <ajmitch> yes, we're in the process of setting up our own buildds anyway
[09:46] <sabdfl> cool
[09:46] <jdong> it's been talked about for excess of a year now
[09:46] <sabdfl> jdong: a month or two, depending on feisty release, don't want to put that at risk with bug archive changes
[09:46] <sabdfl> so, that's the first issue
[09:46] <jdong> ok, that's good to hear.
[09:46] <sabdfl> i wish lupine_85 had been given a place to do this work which was IN this community
[09:46] <stgraber> for my first package I didn't have any problem finding the way to go from the source code without any packaging to a package in universe, the process was I think really clear
[09:46] <jdong> I've been having a painful time getting a more involved backports testing process too.
[09:46] <ajmitch> sabdfl: you don't feel that REVU is part of the community?
[09:47] <sabdfl> much less risk of a drop in communications when people "see" each other every day
[09:47] <jdong> PPA would help me out immensely
[09:47] <ajmitch> or is it just not visible from your POV?
[09:47] <LaserJock> sabdfl: we were here, he can/did work in here
[09:47] <sabdfl> ajmitch: of course it is, but it's not a place where end users can get packages, so it is not the devs first love, is it?
[09:47] <sabdfl> think about it from the perspective of a beryl dev
[09:47] <sabdfl> you want to give your users a place to get the packages *NOW*
[09:47] <sabdfl> and that's where you will get bugs
[09:47] <sabdfl> feedback
[09:47] <sabdfl> results
[09:47] <sabdfl> suggestions
[09:47] <sabdfl> patches
[09:48] <sabdfl> we need to provide that place
[09:48] <LaserJock> sabdfl: then give use repo resources
[09:48] <sistpoty> I guess revu particularly gives feedback about packaging bugs
[09:48] <sabdfl> PPA's will help, but I'd like to MOTU's to think of how they will use that
[09:48] <sistpoty> but it's not visible to the end users
[09:48] <LaserJock> we can't think much about stuff we haven't even seen
[09:48] <sabdfl> so, that's the first issue, and i hope everyone agrees it is important
[09:48] <tsmithe> hang on - i'm missing something.. what's a "PPA"?
[09:48] <sabdfl> the second issue is different
[09:49] <sistpoty> tsmithe: personal package archives
[09:49] <sabdfl> say we have existing packages, and an upstream for those packages wants to work on them
[09:49] <tsmithe> ah right
[09:49] <sabdfl> the basic packaging has already been done, and passed
[09:49] <sabdfl> the person is only updating them
[09:49] <sabdfl> that's much easier
[09:49] <LaserJock> sure
[09:49] <sabdfl> that's where I would like us to have fast-track with limited upload scope
[09:49] <sabdfl> the person *might* make a mistake
[09:50] <sabdfl> so I like the idea of requiring motu signoff during freeze times
[09:50] <tsmithe> and in such a critical case as beryl, do we want that to be possible?
[09:50] <sabdfl> it's also an incentive to actually GET to being a full MOTU
[09:50] <LaserJock> sabdfl: how is that any different than sponsorship?
[09:50] <sabdfl> LaserJock: no delay
[09:50] <sabdfl> we can make it so LP can enforce this
[09:50] <sabdfl> Joe can only upload to packages X, Y and Z
[09:50] <sabdfl> until he becomes MOTU
[09:50] <sabdfl> and we can also enforce MOTU-signoff during freeze periods
[09:51] <ajmitch> how is it an incentive to go further?
[09:51] <LaserJock> fine, let's just get rid of MOTU and upstreams can maintain their own packages
[09:51] <sabdfl> ajmitch: MOTU can upload anywhere
[09:51] <sabdfl> also, MOTU can upload during freeze
[09:51] <sistpoty> well, updating packages is not always easier than creating new ones... especially if you look at libraries
[09:51] <LaserJock> or merges
[09:51] <sistpoty> yep
[09:52] <LaserJock> I just think if a person really is good enough and knows enough to be trusted with uploading to Universe then they should be MOTU
[09:52] <sistpoty> there might also be the problem of someone creating packages for upstream, who looses interest later on it... some things we should keep in mind
[09:52] <LaserJock> if the bar for MOTU is to hight that's something
[09:52] <LaserJock> *high
[09:53] <sabdfl> the MOTU team are great at building standards and maintaining quality across many packages
[09:53] <sabdfl> that's very important
[09:53] <LaserJock> mile wide and an inch deep
[09:53] <sabdfl> upstreams tend to have a different view
[09:53] <sabdfl> more specific to a single package or set of packages
[09:53] <LaserJock> we touch many packages but don't spend a lot of time on any single package
[09:53] <sabdfl> they are different, we need to appeal to both and balance them
[09:53] <LaserJock> that's why we rely on Debian
[09:55] <geser> what would be the requirements for an upstream to get upload rights?
[09:55] <ScottK> sabdfl: If you want to solve the having to wait for a busy volunteer MOTU to review a package problem, then perhaps you could fund a few hours of consulting per month for MOTUs to make sure they give it focus.  I guarantee you I will find time to do paying work.
[09:56] <sabdfl> ScottK: different problem to solve
[09:56] <tsmithe> nor I; but i strongly feel that there is a better way
[09:56] <LaserJock> sabdfl: I don't know how to exactly say this so I'll just say it. This seems like you are just trying to appease certian upstreams.
[09:56] <sabdfl> LaserJock: not at all
[09:56] <ScottK> sabdfl: I don't think so.  I think that's the actual problem that exists.  To a large extent you are trying to solve the wrong problem right now.
[09:56] <Amaranth> i was going to be more blunt and replace 'certain upstreams' with 'beryl'
[09:56] <sabdfl> i'm trying to make sure we have the most straightforward, sensible path-to-participation
[09:57] <LaserJock> if an upstream want's to learn how to package we go out of our way to help them
[09:57] <LaserJock> we have set up a system for feedback
[09:57] <LaserJock> we have mentorship programs
[09:57] <LaserJock> MOTU School
[09:57] <sabdfl> Amaranth: beryl is important now, it has catalysed this discussion, but I specifically asked the MOTU council to think of how we could generalise this
[09:57] <LaserJock> and we here much more than we should be
[09:57] <sabdfl> LaserJock: and that's brilliant work, that has been very successful
[09:57] <sabdfl> i'm not undermining that
[09:57] <Amaranth> sabdfl: I don't see how beryl is any more important than, well, everything else
[09:57] <sabdfl> but it's missing a vector
[09:58] <LaserJock> I just don't see how we can make it any easier without comprimising quality
[09:58] <sabdfl> Amaranth: that's why i asked the MOTU to generalise the concept
[09:58] <sabdfl> so it applies to, well, everything else
[09:58] <tsmithe> what other examples are pressing?
[09:58] <sabdfl> LaserJock: you said it yourself - a mile wide and an inch deep
[09:58] <LaserJock> if an upstream can't make MOTU then maybe they shouldn't be uploading to Universe
[09:58] <tsmithe> what is "everything else"?
[09:58] <sabdfl> what if someone is knocking on the door saying "look, in this package, i can give you 10 feet deep"
[09:58] <tsmithe> everything where it isn't working now?
[09:58] <sabdfl> we should not tell that person "you must become a generalist"
[09:59] <LaserJock> we don't though
[09:59] <jdong> tsmithe: every piece of software that doesn't have a Ubuntu package.
[09:59] <sabdfl> we should tell that person "ok, but you have to fit in here"
[09:59] <Seveas> sabdfl, isn't REVU intended for that?
[09:59] <LaserJock> sabdfl: we have MOTU Teams for instance
[09:59] <tsmithe> jdong, well - are they "pressing", as i said?
[09:59] <sabdfl> Seveas: it does help, but it's not the whole story, please read scrollback
[09:59] <Amaranth> all the packages i care about are in main so... :)
[09:59] <tsmithe> jdong, if they aren't then i don't think they count under that
[09:59] <LaserJock> sabdfl: we don't exclude working on just one or two packages, but we just haven't had a lot of interest, IMO
[09:59] <jdong> tsmithe: I've been pressing for prevu
[09:59] <LaserJock> most upstreams don't want to maintain their packages
[10:00] <jdong> tsmithe: less pressing right now because of time constraints and just being fed up
[10:00] <LaserJock> that's what the distro devs are for
[10:00] <tsmithe> jdong, and it's not in? i'm supprised
[10:00] <sabdfl> it's like this. when you set up a social process, it evolves to suit a certain way of thinking
[10:00] <tsmithe> *surprised
[10:00] <sabdfl> but it can often be bad for people who have a different way of thinking
[10:00] <jdong> tsmithe: a half-baked got in only after insistence, but getting newer versions in is less fun than a frontal lobotomy.
[10:00] <sabdfl> i'm saying that we need to consider that perhaps our processes could be broadened
[10:01] <sabdfl> lots of distributions make this mistake
[10:01] <sabdfl> they think they are more important than upstream, because they are closer to the user
[10:01] <sabdfl> thats only half the picture
[10:01] <ScottK> And when you set up social processes, you have to consider change very carefully or you will inadvertently break them.
[10:01] <sabdfl> that's why we invite lots of upstreams to our conferences, and sponsor them
[10:01] <sabdfl> ScottK: that's true
[10:01] <sabdfl> hence this discussion
[10:01] <Amaranth> sabdfl: i don't think anyone here feels that
[10:01] <sabdfl> Amaranth: feels what?
[10:02] <Amaranth> that we're more important than upstream
[10:02] <sabdfl> well, it would never be expressed that way
[10:02] <sabdfl> but consider carefully the example here
[10:02] <LaserJock> what example though?
[10:02] <Amaranth> beryl?
[10:02] <sabdfl> we said "your packages are not good enough, we'll help you make them better, but we won't publish them till they are perfect"
[10:02] <LaserJock> we did a lot of work to help the beryl people
[10:02] <LaserJock> sabdfl: we did not!!!
[10:02] <ScottK> sabdfl: This doesn't particularly feel like discussion to me.  You know what you want and you are trying to talk everyone into it even though the bulk of those present and invovled in the day to day work are disagreeing with you.
[10:02] <sabdfl> that was perfectly reasonable
[10:03] <sabdfl> we have high standards
[10:03] <Amaranth> the packages weren't even the problem most of the time
[10:03] <Amaranth> so that's a bad example
[10:03] <sabdfl> shipping feisty without beryl 0.2 in universe would have been a failure *somewhere*, no?
[10:03] <Amaranth> sure, on their part
[10:03] <LaserJock> I suppose
[10:03] <sabdfl> so let's be open minded enough to figure out where, and how
[10:03] <sistpoty> no... we imo got much bigger problesm
[10:04] <Amaranth> they're just fixing the problem today
[10:04] <Amaranth> they were told it was a problem a long time ago
[10:04] <jdong> sabdfl: I have to agree with all of the MOTU's here that cite resource shortage in the MOTU world
[10:04] <LaserJock> sabdfl: like I said, if you want beryl in Universe then request a Freeze exception, not go around the processes
[10:04] <sabdfl> jdong: getting more upstream involvement will be one way to increase the total resources covering these bases
[10:04] <jdong> sabdfl: I have to say that more than half of the bugs that I am told to reject in Backports and sent to MOTU never get a single look
[10:05] <sistpoty> yep... I'm not quite sure where we stand on bug triaging, but iirc we've got ~10k bugs to deal with
[10:05] <sabdfl> LaserJock: i think you are missing my point
[10:05] <tsmithe> i obviously am too
[10:05] <sabdfl> yes, we can fix the symptoms
[10:05] <jdong> sistpoty: yeah, the # is large, and the # of confirmed ones are large too.
[10:05] <sabdfl> we can make a freeze exeption for beryl
[10:05] <sabdfl> that is the *symptom* of the problem
[10:05] <LaserJock> sabdfl: and perhaps you are missing mine. We helped them, and we uploaded their packages
[10:05] <sabdfl> a better description of the problem is "communication breakdown", right?
[10:05] <LaserJock> we are willing to sponsor them
[10:05] <pef> hello
[10:06] <Amaranth> sabdfl: I don't see how it's communication breakdown
[10:06] <sabdfl> but the real problem is that we did not provide a forum in which they wanted to participate
[10:06] <sabdfl> so they went to another forum
[10:06] <Amaranth> sabdfl: they were told of a problem, they never fixed it
[10:06] <sabdfl> so communications broke down
[10:06] <ajmitch> sabdfl: if by communications problems you mean licensing issues upstream, which were being resolved by the 0.2.0 rleease
[10:06] <tsmithe> well, no. they just didn't do the required
[10:06] <Amaranth> ajmitch: 0.2.0 didn't fix it
[10:06] <sabdfl> Amaranth: once they left this forum, there was no longer any pressure to fix it
[10:06] <ajmitch> Amaranth: unfortunate
[10:06] <Amaranth> ajmitch: 0.2.1 might
[10:06] <LaserJock> sabdfl: who left this form?
[10:06] <geser> how would upload rights help beryl people their packages accepted by archive admins?
[10:06] <sabdfl> keep people in your forum, and you get to influence their quality directly
[10:06] <tsmithe> sabdfl, shouldn't that pressure be from self-motivation?
[10:07] <Amaranth> sabdfl: They weren't here but it was still a goal
[10:07] <sabdfl> tsmithe: group motivation is more consistent
[10:07] <sistpoty> sabdfl: the real problem is that you want beryl in at all costs. and now blame motus to not spending every free minute to get it in or have wrong processes, while in reality we're just trying to take care for 9000+ packages with 20 active persons
[10:07] <ajmitch> sabdfl: just how could we have made upstream fix up their issues much faster?
[10:07] <tsmithe> any rejected packages of mine, i fixed and tried again
[10:07] <tsmithe> i wanted them in
[10:07] <tsmithe> i tried hard
[10:07] <Amaranth> sabdfl: The goal all along was getting their 0.2.0 release into fiesty
[10:07] <ScottK> sabdfl: The one place you absolutely cannot affort to compromise on correctness is licensing and that was the core issue here.
[10:07] <sabdfl> sistpoty: that's totally inaccurate
[10:07] <tsmithe> and was not discouraged.
[10:07] <lupine_85> 0.2.1 is out :)
[10:07] <sabdfl> yay!
[10:08] <lupine_85> ok. So do we want these turning into packages and putting on revu?
[10:08] <sabdfl> see how much faster we get things done when we have everyone in the same room?
[10:08] <ScottK> sabdfl: What sistpoty said may be inaccurate, but that's sure how it looks from the sidelines.
[10:08] <lupine_85> heh
[10:08] <sabdfl> lupine_85: yes please
[10:08] <sistpoty> at least from the recent discussion
[10:08] <sabdfl> i'll stay here till we clear this up
[10:08] <LaserJock> sabdfl: they've mostly been all in the samre room
[10:08] <sabdfl> LaserJock: no - the packaging discussion moved to another forum
[10:08] <Amaranth> sabdfl: They gave up when the FF deadline passed and 0.2.0 wasn't out yet
[10:09] <sabdfl> we gave up
[10:09] <LaserJock> sabdfl: I'm not sure how we can help it if people move discussion elsewhere
[10:09] <ajmitch> sabdfl: you mean we, the MOTUs gave up
[10:09] <Amaranth> sabdfl: If they'd met _their_ deadline they would have gotten the kick in the pants needed
[10:09] <lupine_85> Amaranth: no... we relaxed our schedule when the spec was deferred
[10:09] <sabdfl> LaserJock: we can figure out how to make space for those discussions here
[10:09] <LaserJock> sabdfl: and how are we not doing that now?
[10:09] <sabdfl> Amaranth: listen to yourself
[10:09] <sabdfl> "they would have gotten the kick in the pants needed"
[10:09] <sabdfl> that's terribly arrogant, and not what i want from the ubuntu community
[10:10] <LaserJock> sabdfl: we uploaded the packages!! they didn't give use new ones to upload!
[10:10] <LaserJock> how is that our fault?!
[10:10] <Amaranth> sabdfl: Me telling them "please fix your license issues" didn't do it, the debian packager telling them "please fix your license issues" didn't do it
[10:10] <sabdfl> LaserJock: relax, i'm not criticising you or the MOTU team
[10:10] <sabdfl> i'm criticising OUR thinking, OUR processes
[10:10] <ajmitch> sabdfl: saying that we gave up is close to it
[10:10] <sabdfl> do you know how universe got created?
[10:10] <sabdfl> *we*, me included
[10:10] <Toadstool> big bang?
[10:11] <sabdfl> more or less
[10:11] <ajmitch> creation ex nihilo?
[10:11] <LaserJock> ok
[10:11] <sabdfl> just like this discussion :-)
[10:11] <sabdfl> can i tell the story?
[10:11] <sistpoty> sure, we're listening ;)
[10:11] <sabdfl> when i first proposed universe, the core devs were opposed
[10:11] <sabdfl> they wanted to stay focused on main, keep super-high standards there, not be distracted
[10:12] <sabdfl> and i felt we need a forum for all the pieces that didn't quite fit into main
[10:12] <sabdfl> we needed a place for people who were learning, and people who had unique needs
[10:12] <sabdfl> that's where innovation, great ideas could be nurtured
[10:12] <sabdfl> so we made universe
[10:12] <sabdfl> it was a way to create "blue sky" in the project
[10:12] <sabdfl> main is hard-core
[10:12] <sabdfl> an update in main goes to gazillions of computers
[10:12] <sabdfl> very little room for error
[10:13] <sabdfl> now universe, and MOTU, are a huge success
[10:13] <sistpoty> thanks :)
[10:13] <sabdfl> this is where a lot of the interesting stuff happens
[10:13] <sabdfl> xubuntu started here
[10:13] <sabdfl> kubuntu started here
[10:13] <sabdfl> edubuntu
[10:13] <sabdfl> innovation is very hard to schedule, to plan, to predict
[10:13] <sabdfl> you have to create a place where magic can happen
[10:14] <sabdfl> and that's what i think universe is
[10:14] <sabdfl> now, i'm proposing we look beyond that
[10:14] <ajmitch> and we also have to have a place where quality is maintained
[10:14] <sabdfl> ajmitch: yes, i was never suggesting that a shoddy package from an upstream should "just get uploaded"
[10:14] <sabdfl> there are two scenarios
[10:14] <ajmitch> we often have to try & balance getting the latest crack in compared to what it may break
[10:14] <Toadstool> sabdfl: are you somehow implying that we have set too high quality standards for universe?
[10:15] <sabdfl>  (1) the upstream doesn't have a package, so they need to develop one
[10:15] <ajmitch> or what meager resources should be allocated to
[10:15] <sabdfl> in this case, the initial versions can't obviously just be uploaded
[10:15] <sabdfl> this is where beryl started, right?
[10:15] <sabdfl> but we should have *a space* for them
[10:15] <sabdfl> like -experimental
[10:15] <sabdfl> or a MOTU PPA
[10:16] <sistpoty> actually it looks like we've gotten more "professional" for universe in recent times... if I compare breezy release (trying to fix bugs e.g. with new upstream versions until the latest days) and universe now with all its rules, a little bit of the magic seemed to have vanished
[10:16] <Lure> sabdfl: +1 on need for -experimental, but is universi it?
[10:16] <sabdfl> so they stay here, in this forum, listening and learning and fixing issues
[10:16] <sabdfl> Lure: no, universe itself is not it
[10:16] <sabdfl> but the MOTU *community* is it
[10:16] <LaserJock> ok
[10:16] <sabdfl> over time, those packages mature, and asap they go into universe
[10:16] <LaserJock> I don't think anybody is opposed to PPA or an -experimental
[10:17] <LaserJock> but right now those are vaporware for us practically
[10:17] <Lure> LaserJock: exactly, it would help kde4 and similar projects 
[10:17] <LaserJock> so we do the best we can with the resources we have
[10:17] <sabdfl> look at beryl - they set up their own repo and when the packages reached the point where they could go into universe, we weren't around to notice
[10:17] <sistpoty> no, actually I've been thinking about experimental myself already, that'd defintely be a great thing to have
[10:17] <sistpoty> (what was my no aimed at?)
[10:17] <lupine_85> Question -- should there be a blank changelog for these new packages?
[10:17] <sabdfl> ok, i thinkwe are all coming round to the idea of a place to host packages-under-development
[10:17] <LaserJock> sabdfl: this is were I disagree though, we uploaded their packages
[10:17] <lupine_85> Or should it be a continuation of the currently-existing changelog?
[10:17] <sabdfl> what's important to me, is that this remains the FORUM for those developers and users
[10:17] <Lure> sabdfl: but accepting them in universe with license issues is not an option, agreed?
[10:17] <gnomefreak> lupine_85: i would start clean but im no motu
[10:17] <sabdfl> Lure: agreed
[10:18] <sabdfl> but if they were working here, those issues would be fixed much faster
[10:18] <lupine_85> gnomefreak: that was my thought too
[10:18] <lupine_85> 0.2.1-0ubuntu1, I assume
[10:18] <LaserJock> sabdfl: and they were welcome to
[10:18] <sabdfl> look how fast lupine_85 is working through the issues now we have this conversation in this forum
[10:18] <geser> lupine_85: yes
[10:18] <tsmithe> lupine_85, yep
[10:18] <sabdfl> my point is that we should not say "go elsewhere till you solve those issues"
[10:18] <sistpoty> cya ajmitch
[10:18] <sabdfl> we should say "stay here, we will help you fix these issues"
[10:18] <tsmithe> bye ajmitch 
[10:18] <Toadstool> cya ajmitch 
[10:18] <LaserJock> sabdfl: yes, because you went to #beryl-dev and got them excited
[10:18] <Lutin> bye ajmitch 
[10:18] <sabdfl> cheers ajmitch
[10:19] <joejaxx> Good Day ajmitch 
[10:19] <stgraber> I think -experimental is an intersting idea to test packages, but that would also mean some people will have to sort what will be uploaded (to avoid big conflicts) and then decide what package will or won't be uploaded to universe, that means more work and still not enough people to work on that
[10:19] <tsmithe> sabdfl, i always got the impression that that was what was said
[10:19] <sabdfl> so that's the first case - brand new packages, brand new devs
[10:19] <mr_pouit> bye ajmitch 
[10:19] <sabdfl> tsmithe: it's subtle, but important, the difference
[10:19] <sabdfl> the second case is different
[10:19] <tsmithe> i've always been very well accomodated here... :)
[10:19] <sabdfl> in the second case we HAVE packages, but the usptreams want to improve them
[10:19] <sabdfl> i think we should have an efficient way to accommodate that
[10:19] <tsmithe> makes sense
[10:20] <sabdfl> designed to provide quick entry and access to that limited subset of universe (the packages are already in universe rememeber)
[10:20] <sabdfl> but also designed to socialise that upstream to ubuntu's timing, processes, language, policy, goals etc
[10:20] <lupine_85> gnomefreak: it's just gruntwork right now ;)
[10:20] <lupine_85> but thanks for the offer
[10:20] <gnomefreak> lupine_85: are you able to carry over the rules file?
[10:20] <lupine_85> yeah
[10:20] <sistpoty> and ideally integrate upstream to become a full-fledged motu :)
[10:21] <gnomefreak> cool :)
[10:21] <sabdfl> sistpoty: exactly!
[10:21] <sabdfl> it's an onramp
[10:21] <sabdfl> but it's an onramp designed from upstreams perspective, not from -core-dev's perspective
[10:21] <LaserJock> sabdfl: ok, but what are you exactly suggesting? I don't see where we are really not doing this in a pretty painless way
[10:21] <tsmithe> i'm unfamiliar with the term "onramp". is it like a "ramp" "on"? a boost into the community?
[10:22] <sabdfl> tsmithe: yes - like the onramp to a highway
[10:22] <lupine_85> my 2p is that I can't really see a point where Ubuntu's procedures failed
[10:22] <LaserJock> we have REVU sprints
[10:22] <sistpoty> well, restricted upload rights can really be a tool to make this happen, but as I wrote in the last mail it won't automatically do it per se.
[10:22] <sabdfl> lupine_85: what if we'd offered you an archive to publish those packages in before they were ready?
[10:22] <sabdfl> and kept going with the conversation here?
[10:22] <tsmithe> sabdfl, ah. i've never come across that in england, although i'm unable to drive due to my age. thanks.
[10:23] <ScottK> sabdfl: It sounds to me like you are still caught up with the idea that the Beryl devs were pushed away and all the MOTUs that have spoken say it didn't happen.
[10:23] <lupine_85> sabdfl: then I'd probably have accepted it with great thanks :), but that's communication again
[10:23] <lupine_85> if someone had asked me to work on this at 0.1.3, I would have
[10:23] <sabdfl> ScottK: the facts are that the beryl devs setup their own repo, and the conversation moved away
[10:23] <lupine_85> If I didn't think it was being taken care of, I would have worked on it
[10:23] <sabdfl> then the communication broke down
[10:23] <tsmithe> well... there was already the repo
[10:23] <sabdfl> ScottK: do you disagree with the facts?
[10:24] <ScottK> sabdfl: But you make the (IMO flawed) assumption that it's because of a process failure here.
[10:24] <LaserJock> sabdfl: I honestly think it was a beryl communication problem
[10:24] <tsmithe> perhaps the motivation wasn't there as that was easy enough?
[10:24] <lupine_85> yeah, the communication broke down.. but I don't think it was ubuntu's fault
[10:24] <LaserJock> sabdfl: they didn't seem to know who was packaging what
[10:24] <LaserJock> sabdfl: I specifically tried to help direct communication several times
[10:24] <ScottK> sabdfl: Should MOTU have accepted packages with flawed licensing?
[10:24] <sistpoty> LaserJock: maybe request-for-packages bugs can even solve this *g+
[10:24] <sabdfl> LaserJock: they are upstream, we should always encourage them to take the lead
[10:24] <sabdfl> ScottK: please read what i said on that earlier
[10:24] <LaserJock> sabdfl: !!!!
[10:24] <LaserJock> sabdfl: that's what we've been saying
[10:25] <_MMA_> If for now the Ubuntu Studio project considers itself a upstream shouldn't we recognize that its up to us to get our packages into Universe and work within the system? As its lead I know the importance of maintaining a presence here. Shouldnt other projects as well?
[10:25] <sabdfl> well, they came to believe that someone in motu was packaging it
[10:25] <LaserJock> sabdfl: and when we let them take the lead and they didn't respond it suddenly becomes our fault?
[10:25] <ScottK> sabdfl: I've read every word you've written here and I think that you are the one that's not listening.
[10:25] <sabdfl> i think that clearly suggests they were not encouraged to take the lead ;-)
[10:25] <ScottK> MOTU can lead the horse to water, but they can't make him drink.  That's the fundamental issue.
[10:25] <LaserJock> sabdfl: that was after they didn't respond and we told them who was working on it (imbrandon) and that he would probably like to work on them
[10:26] <sabdfl> our process could not accommodate them here till their packages were ready for inclusion
[10:26] <sabdfl> they didn't respond because they were too busy getting on with it
[10:26] <LaserJock> well I don't think we can help that
[10:26] <sabdfl> socially, once you have set yourself up, why should you respond to some other community?
[10:26] <sabdfl> this is one of the profound issues in free software
[10:26] <LaserJock> if upstreams don't want to work with us there isn't a ton we can do about it
[10:27] <sabdfl> communities are by nature inward-looking
[10:27] <LaserJock> we can't be babysitting thousands of upstreams
[10:27] <ScottK> sabdfl: The only thing that wasnt' accomodated was the ability to build binary packages.  Giving them limited upload rights with packages that have legal issues is not the right way to solve that problem.
[10:27] <Toadstool> sabdfl: we can barely babysit ourselves ;)
[10:27] <sabdfl> ScottK: i will answer this again, only once
[10:27] <LaserJock> sabdfl: I agree that we would like to have a repo for this stuff
[10:27] <LaserJock> sabdfl: but that's on your end
[10:27] <sabdfl> new packages, that still have licencing issues are NOT to be "fast-tracked"
[10:28] <sabdfl> we are to create a place here, where those packages, can mature
[10:28] <ScottK> OK, but that was the core issue with the packages here, so I don't understand.
[10:28] <sistpoty> I guess the fact that we have more ppl. that *want* to work with us and follow the procedures makes it easier for us to not encourage ppl. if someone turns away there are plenty other to turn to them
[10:28] <sabdfl> the fast-track, limited upload privileges are for cases where we already have a package in the archive
[10:28] <sabdfl> and we have an upstream who wants to help improve that package
[10:28] <LaserJock> sabdfl: ok, then give us community buildds and repo space
[10:28] <sabdfl> LaserJock: i will do exactly that, will you be ready for it?
[10:28] <LaserJock> yes
[10:29] <sabdfl> cool - then we are on the same page
[10:29] <LaserJock> we've been screwing around making our won
[10:29] <LaserJock> because we've been waiting on PPA
[10:29] <LaserJock> we've been working on this since Paris
[10:29] <sabdfl> me too - man, i have been waaaiiiiting for ppa's
[10:29] <gnomefreak> jdong: that was almost too easy
[10:29] <jdong> gnomefreak: mmm?
[10:29] <sabdfl> ScottK: did i answer your question?
[10:29] <gnomefreak> jdong: the java6build
[10:29] <lupine_85> Do you guys want -dbg packages, by the way?
[10:30] <gnomefreak> lupine_85: please
[10:30] <lupine_85> OK
[10:30] <jdong> gnomefreak: yeah java's one of the easier backports
[10:30] <gnomefreak> ah ok ill have testers to test it on edgy while im not on tomorrow im uploading now 
[10:31] <ScottK> sabdfl: Not really.  You say you don't want packages with licensing problems in the archive and that Beryl should have gotten in sooner, but it had licensing problems until today.  Those appear to be contradictory positions to me.
[10:31] <sabdfl> ScottK: why are the licensing problems being fixed *today*?
[10:31] <LaserJock> because Beryl didn't do it before
[10:31] <sabdfl> but why today?
[10:31] <ScottK> From what I've been reading that's why they just released 0.2.1.
[10:32] <sistpoty> because the 17th of march is from now on called beryl day :)
[10:32] <LaserJock> sabdfl: because you went over there and said you'd put them in
[10:32] <ScottK> Ah.  Because you jumped in and gave them a kick in the pants.
[10:32] <sabdfl> oh, please stop talking as if everyone else needs a kick
[10:32] <sabdfl> in life, it's generally more successful to assume that it's NOT someone else's fault
[10:32] <ScottK> There was no process barrier to them being here sooner.
[10:32] <LaserJock> well, sometimes we all need some motivation, kick is not the best term ;-)
[10:32] <lupine_85> it was less a kick and more someone actually telling me it was wanted :). 
[10:33] <sabdfl> keeping people here, in this forum, is the best way to make sure that the things WE care about get done
[10:33] <LaserJock> sabdfl: they are they authors, I can't change the license for them
[10:33] <sabdfl> like licensing, packaging quality, etc
[10:33] <stgraber> jdong: While you are talking about backport, I had bug 68818 and tried fixing it with simply building Feisty package on Edgy, it worked perfectly, is there a way you make a backport to fix that really really annoying bug (unable to correctly use squid as transparent proxy (no cache is not a solution for me)) ?
[10:33] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 68818 in squid "squid transparent proxy is broken" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/68818
[10:33] <lupine_85> it was sabdfl, but TBH I'd have given response to anyone
[10:33] <LaserJock> lupine_85: why did you think it wasn't wanted?
[10:33] <stgraber> jdong: I didn't see a proper patch upstream else than, fixed in next release please upgrade
[10:33] <sabdfl> LaserJock: they won't change it till they realise that someone cares
[10:34] <LaserJock> sabdfl: we didn't tell them we didn't
[10:34] <sabdfl> and if they are there, and we are here, there's no opportunity to realise that
[10:34] <jdong> stgraber: I am not supposed to use backports to fix bugs; I'm supposed to reassign them to MOTU
[10:34] <gnomefreak> i thought it was a FTB thats why it was stopped
[10:34] <sabdfl> LaserJock: if they were here every day, we would have
[10:34] <jdong> stgraber: which... er... basically means throwing the bug out :(
[10:34] <lupine_85> well, until UVF I thought someone in ubuntu was dealing with it (you told us otherwise it seems, but no-one told me - beryl comm problem ;) 0
[10:34] <LaserJock> sabdfl: they are here quite often
[10:34] <Lutin> I wonder how someone providing software can not care about its license
[10:34] <sabdfl> Lutin: upstreams often just want to hack
[10:34] <sistpoty> sabdfl: but honestly I guess it was also a little bit of a problem how much we cared about it. it maybe might have helped to just come in and say "make this top priority" earlier on
[10:34] <lupine_85> post-UVF, I didn't bother because I thought it wouldn't get it
[10:35] <sabdfl> they have their own repos, they are publishing the packages, users are getting them, what's the problem?
[10:35] <jdong> stgraber: looks like one should diff RELEASE1 and RELEASE2 and isolate the patch, SRU it
[10:35] <sabdfl> sistpoty: someone out there cares about almost any little packages
[10:35] <LaserJock> sabdfl: the problem is they didn't get them to us, and we can't babysit all upstreams
[10:35] <ScottK> sabdfl: I think every upstream knows they get more exposure if they are acutally in the distro.  That's why I showed up.
[10:35] <sabdfl> this conversation is just catalysed because i happen to care about beryl, but the really important thing is to get a good GENERAL framework, that applies to all packages
[10:36] <LaserJock> I mean, I talke to PriceChild all the time
[10:36] <LaserJock> he never said anything
[10:36] <LaserJock> he's in here quite often
[10:36] <sistpoty> sabdfl: yep, but we as motus obviously didn't make it a priority
[10:36] <sabdfl> and he could say you never said anything
[10:36] <stgraber> jdong: ok, I guess it will more likely end with a : fixed in Feisty please upgrade once Feisty will be released
[10:36] <lupine_85> Question. Can one have two Maintainers: fields in a control file?
[10:36] <LaserJock> I've seen lupine_85 a fair amout
[10:36] <sabdfl> it's easy for both sides to say "those guys don't get it"
[10:36] <jdong> stgraber: not necessarily; someone just has to isolate the patch that fixes the problem
[10:36] <sabdfl> and i'm saying that for MOTU, figuring out how to be a really rocking attractive place for upstreams is a GREAT way to expand the poolof talent here
[10:37] <LaserJock> lupine_85: you can have Uploaders: or a mailing list or something for Maintainer:
[10:37] <lupine_85> ok
[10:37] <sabdfl> i'm very glad to be having this
[10:37] <jdong> stgraber: basically what James Troup said in comment #2
[10:37] <ScottK> sabdfl: I think access to binary builds before it's accepted in the archive is a lot more important to making MOTU more attractive than fast tracking people.
[10:37] <LaserJock> sabdfl: I agree, we need to be as helpful as possible
[10:37] <lupine_85> so. Right now I've left blurfx in because I really can't see an issue with it. And I've taken out beryl-xgl because that apparently has to be in a separate source package
[10:38] <ScottK> LaserJock: My experience is that you guys have been extraordinarily helpful.
[10:38] <sabdfl> ScottK: they are both important, please look at the difference between those two, very different, scenarios
[10:38] <lupine_85> sources to all binaries are in the tarballs
[10:38] <sabdfl> ScottK: here's a COMMON scenario
[10:39] <LaserJock> lupine_85: we do that sort of thing a lot ;-)
[10:39] <lupine_85> :)
[10:39] <sabdfl> you are an upstream dev of package foo
[10:39] <sabdfl> you keep getting bug reports from users of the foo package in ubuntu
[10:39] <stgraber> jdong: ok, I'm having a look at both version and trying to find the part of the code fixing it, if that's easy I'll do that myself otherwise I'll let anyone more qualified do it :)
[10:39] <sabdfl> you realise that's because a patch was not applied, you know the patch
[10:39] <sabdfl> you come over here, and get told that you need to become a generalist before you can fix little things like that
[10:39] <sabdfl> so...
[10:40] <LaserJock> sabdfl: no, you aren't told that
[10:40] <jdong> stgraber: I don't think it will be difficult to isolate -- squid handles their stable releases pretty conservatively
[10:40] <sabdfl> you go away and don't bother to come back
[10:40] <stgraber> jdong: fine :)
[10:40] <sabdfl> then you see mr shuttleworth at a conference, and harangue him
[10:40] <sabdfl> i have been so harangued :-)
[10:40] <sistpoty> sabdfl: I guess I really see a 3rd problem with it. we motu's don't give feature wishes top priorities, as we try to keep the archive sane so far. would it be helpful somehow assign specs to motu?
[10:40] <LaserJock> sabdfl: you would be told to put your patch on the bug report and subscribe the ubuntu-universe-sponsors team
[10:40] <lupine_85> hmm... I need to sign these packages before I upload them. Does the signing key need to be the same as the Maintainer: ?
[10:40] <ScottK> Actually you get told to attach a debdiff to the bug report and subscribe UUS to the bug and it'll get taken care of (usually in less the 24 hours).
[10:41] <sabdfl> ScottK: that's great, but i think it can get a little better
[10:41] <Lure> lupine_85: no
[10:41] <jdong> stgraber: yeah if you find it, attach it to the bug report, and that should boost the process
[10:41] <lupine_85> ScottK: except, when I gave a debdiff to the only package I've uploaded so far, it's still not been looked at AFAIK ;)
[10:41] <lupine_85> Lure: excellent
[10:41] <sabdfl> we want to be the best in the planet, right?
[10:41] <lupine_85> but it was a PITA package anyway
[10:41] <sabdfl> nobody should expect that to be easy :-)
[10:41] <ScottK> lupine_85: Did you come here and ask someone to look at it?
[10:41] <LaserJock> sabdfl: exactly, including upstream
[10:41] <jdong> lupine_85: PITA packages tend to get ignored :)
[10:41] <LaserJock> ;-)
[10:41] <lupine_85> TBH it's so long I forget 
[10:42] <sabdfl> now if only we could get upstreams to tend to their PITA packages ;-)
[10:42] <danohuiginn> ScottK: expecting people to ask for help on IRC every time they want to upload a patch isn't ideal
[10:42] <ScottK> So far I don't think I've had to ask more than twice here to get a bugfix uploaded.
[10:42] <LaserJock> sabdfl: they can do that, but most don't want to
[10:42] <ScottK> danohuiginn: True, but usually I don't even have to do that.
[10:42] <sabdfl> ScottK: your packages may well be things that lots of motu's were keen on
[10:42] <sabdfl> what about the packages that only a small group of people care about?
[10:42] <jdong> ScottK: I think I asked in excess of 30 times to get someone to look at xserver-xgl.
[10:43] <ScottK> sabdfl: Actually my stuff hits a VERY small niche.
[10:43] <jdong> ScottK: there is a pretty wide variance in response times
[10:43] <sabdfl> we tend to ignore problems in places we don't care about
[10:43] <sabdfl> we work very hard on the things we do care about, to make them perfect
[10:43] <sabdfl> then we think things are perfect
[10:43] <jdong> sabdfl: yeah, so I've noticed :)
[10:43] <ScottK> It is true that the response level varies, but that's a MOTU resource issue and not a process issue.
[10:43] <sabdfl> because everything WE care about is perfect
[10:43] <jdong> ScottK: it's not JUST a resource issue -- resources are being allocated unevenly too.
[10:43] <LaserJock> I care about Universe and having a good quality repo
[10:44] <sabdfl> ScottK: well, does the MOTU process every item sequentially, first in, first out?
[10:44] <sabdfl> guaranteed?
[10:44] <ScottK> Of course not.
[10:44] <LaserJock> usually easy ones first, I'd think
[10:44] <sistpoty> well, I care for some packages which I guess noone has ever used yet (including me).
[10:44] <LaserJock> depends on the MOTU
[10:44] <sabdfl> ScottK: ok. in fact, MOTU's process things based on their interest
[10:44] <sabdfl> which could be because they think its important
[10:44] <LaserJock> sabdfl: I don't think that's really true
[10:44] <sabdfl> or because its cool
[10:44] <jdong> LaserJock: personal interest -> easiest -> ...
[10:44] <sabdfl> or because lots of people are asking
[10:44] <sistpoty> no, also in how tough is it to handle,
[10:45] <geser> universe sponsors have nearly fixed 1000 bugs
[10:45] <sabdfl> or because its low-haning fruit - easy
[10:45] <danohuiginn> if people don't subscribe UUS to their patches (it's not well documented) they can sit around unexamined for a LONG time
[10:45] <sabdfl> so
[10:45] <sabdfl> i think we must accept that some upstream could come along and put something in the queue and have it not addressed for a long time
[10:45] <sabdfl> weve had a couple examples mentioned just here
[10:45] <LaserJock> sure, that happens
[10:45] <ScottK> sabdfl: That's true.
[10:45] <sabdfl> right
[10:46] <sabdfl> so it's wrong to say that it NEVER happens 
[10:46] <jdong> sabdfl: and if that happens once, they are more likely to assume that is the usual case and give up on the MOTU path.
[10:46] <ScottK> But that doesn't mean that special process bypass rights is the solution.
[10:46] <sabdfl> jdong: yes
[10:46] <stgraber> jdong: I've just found a patch in squid bugtracker (found bugid in the source code of Feisty's squid), I'm trying to apply it + pbuilding if it works I'll attach it to the bug
[10:46] <ScottK> sabdfl: I wouldn't say that, just describing my experience.
[10:46] <LaserJock> sabdfl: I dont' think anybody said it NEVER happens
[10:46] <jdong> stgraber: excellent!
[10:46] <sistpoty> actually patches from upstream or DDs are given preference, at least from me
[10:46] <sabdfl> ScottK: please understand, the special fast-track i'm looking for is very limited
[10:46] <sabdfl>  (a) existing package in the archive
[10:46] <sabdfl>  (b) good upstream
[10:46] <sabdfl>  (c) not in a freeze period
[10:46] <LaserJock> sabdfl: then in all honestly they should be MOTUs
[10:46] <LaserJock> *honesty
[10:47] <sabdfl> LaserJock: what if they don't care about any other packages?
[10:47] <LaserJock> fine
[10:47] <jdong> LaserJock: their interest  is in their own packages
[10:47] <sabdfl> motu's have a bigger picture view
[10:47] <LaserJock> no necessarily
[10:47] <jdong> LaserJock: not in caring for the entire Universe repo
[10:47] <sistpoty> sabdfl: have you read my (truely bureucratic) proposal about it by mail yet?
[10:47] <sabdfl> sistpoty: no, have been trying to hack a little
[10:47] <jdong> LaserJock: becoming MOTU seems to be the solution to everything around here.
[10:47] <jdong> and it's not.
[10:47] <LaserJock> sabdfl: we don't force people to work on everything
[10:47] <sabdfl> jdong: you're on the right track
[10:47] <sistpoty> sabdfl: hehe, might be worth to take a glimpse to it... and I really should be hacking myself :(
[10:48] <sabdfl> LaserJock: no we don't
[10:48] <LaserJock> a MOTU can do whatever he/she wants
[10:48] <jdong> LaserJock: the MOTU acceptance process basically does though, to some degree
[10:48] <sabdfl> but we do have a generalist view
[10:48] <LaserJock> jdong: no it doesn't
[10:48] <LaserJock> I became a MOTU to work on science packages
[10:48] <sabdfl> and we need to figure out how to accommodate specialists
[10:48] <jdong> LaserJock: the first thing I was asked in TB was how many new packages have I uploaded to Universe...
[10:48] <sabdfl> very narrow specialists
[10:48] <jdong> LaserJock: and that's not what I am here to do.
[10:48] <jdong> I'd love to if I had more time
[10:49] <LaserJock> it's about experience not specialization
[10:49] <sabdfl> the hardest thing for a community to do is to ask itself "what am i NOT seeing"?
[10:49] <sabdfl> LaserJock: in some circumstances, experience with the upstream code is more important than experience across the whole distro
[10:49] <LaserJock> if you have experience packaging and know how to play well in the Ubuntu community then you should be a MOTU
[10:49] <sabdfl> *some* circumstances
[10:49] <LaserJock> sabdfl: that's fine
[10:50] <geser> jdong: I haven't uploaded even one NEW package till now
[10:50] <LaserJock> we don't have ANY requirement on breadth of packaging
[10:50] <LaserJock> we just require that we know what you're doing
[10:50] <jdong> geser: I am going by my most recent rejection by the TB; personal experience.
[10:50] <danohuiginn> LaserJock: not everybody *wants* to be a MOTU
[10:50] <sabdfl> what we need to do is figure out the circumstances where it does make sense to let someoen tweak a package of code they know very well
[10:50] <jdong> geser: they specifically asked about _new_ packages
[10:50] <LaserJock> danohuiginn: that's entirely ok too
[10:50] <LaserJock> sabdfl: they can do that just fine through sponsorships
[10:51] <sabdfl> LaserJock: imagine how that feels?
[10:51] <sabdfl> you have commit access upstream
[10:51] <LaserJock> sabdfl: one thing that would help would be to have better specific mentorship/sponsorship
[10:51] <sabdfl> and here you are being told to send a patch?
[10:51] <jdong> LaserJock: sponsorships have turnaround times that can often be sporadic.
[10:51] <ScottK> sabdfl: It's felt quite reasonable to me.  I know my code and they know Ubuntu and we work together.
[10:51] <LaserJock> sabdfl: they need to get over it, IMO. I don't have access to there code, even it I right stuff
[10:51] <LaserJock> sabdfl: you *earn* access
[10:51] <jdong> sabdfl: it's not only about the feel of being restricted; there's also practical latency issues with the sponsorship model
[10:51] <LaserJock> jdong: fine, then lets fix sponsorships
[10:52] <sabdfl> LaserJock: if you have upstream commit, you have earned limited rights here, i believe
[10:52] <jdong> LaserJock: that would be awesome.
[10:52] <ScottK> This has been an interesting discussion, but I have to go because I'm taking my family to the circus tonight.  I'll read the scrollback and enjoy later.
[10:52] <LaserJock> sabdfl: and that's the case
[10:52] <sabdfl> jdong:agreed re latency
[10:52] <LaserJock> so ...
[10:52] <sabdfl> ScottK: enjoy!
[10:52] <LaserJock> lets give interested upstreams dedicated sponsors
[10:52] <sistpoty> sabdfl: you'll still need to balance it because some upstreams don't know much about packaging... so imo sponsorship/mentorship should be the *starting* point
[10:53] <LaserJock> if the upstream figures things out give them MOTUship
[10:53] <LaserJock> there's nothing "fast-track" about it really
[10:53] <LaserJock> we aren't making exceptions
[10:54] <LaserJock> creating more complications
[10:54] <LaserJock> lets just build better relationships
[10:54] <sabdfl> motu-ship would mean "upload anywhere"
[10:54] <sabdfl> and that might not be appropriate
[10:55] <LaserJock> but in all honestly I don't think they should be uploading their specific package then either
[10:55] <LaserJock> we don't really require *that* much
[10:55] <sistpoty> interesting... the more i try to think about the problem, the more I like what I already wrote in the last mail *g*
[10:55] <LaserJock> if they know their source and their packaging
[10:55] <geser> you'll need mentoring/sponsorship at the beginning and if they're experienced enough to get restricted upload rights they're half through MOTUship
[10:56] <LaserJock> good enough to where sponsors no longer worry about them
[10:56] <LaserJock> then I'm really pretty sure they could be MOTUs
[10:56] <LaserJock> we have one of the most friendly dev communities I'm told
[10:56] <LaserJock> we really really try hard to help people learn packaging
[10:57] <LaserJock> we could always use more resources, of course
[10:57] <LaserJock> if we had a repo
[10:57] <Ash-Fox> LaserJock, I disagree -- I've asked questions for many many months here and never got a answer to them.
[10:57] <LaserJock> Ash-Fox: were you turned away though?
[10:58] <sistpoty> LaserJock: you should be working on cloning people... and then we could clone bddebian :P
[10:58] <LaserJock> ;-)
[10:58] <Ash-Fox> LaserJock, define 'turned away' ?
[10:58] <LaserJock> Ash-Fox: did you get a negative response
[10:58] <Ash-Fox> Nope, but I don't get a negative response else-where either.
[10:58] <LaserJock> we can't be here all the time
[10:58] <jdong> LaserJock: turned away and <silent> serve the same purpose
[10:59] <LaserJock> well, but we try to be good about that
[10:59] <sistpoty> which however very rarely happens
[10:59] <sistpoty> (in response to jdong)
[10:59] <jdong> LaserJock: my experience with u-u-s is that I still need to come in here to ask, several times, that someone look at it
[10:59] <jdong> sistpoty: maybe I'm just unlucky then
[10:59] <tsmithe> well, i'm going to crash now. i hope this gets resolved. night everyone. keep hacking!
[10:59] <jdong> or take on the wrong projects
[10:59] <Ash-Fox> I understand that, but I've spent months trying to answers on questions that just don't seem to be documented anywhere.
[10:59] <sistpoty> jdong: you take on the wrong projects ;)
[10:59] <jdong> I love you guys, but there's times I get the feeling that I am being purposely ignored
[10:59] <LaserJock> jdong: but you aren't helping
[11:00] <jdong> LaserJock: oh so now I'm not helping?
[11:00] <LaserJock> jdong: yes
[11:00] <Ademan> you guys are all quite involved in the packaging obviously, how does ubuntu work for ppc users?  Are there ppc versions of the binary packages? or do they have to compile them themselves? or what?
[11:00] <LaserJock> you've had many chances to become MOTU
[11:00] <LaserJock> and you won't
[11:00] <LaserJock> so I complain about us being to slow
[11:00] <LaserJock> s/I/you/
[11:00] <LaserJock> but won't help the problem
[11:01] <jdong> LaserJock: so non-MOTU's now don't deserve to get timely responses on patches?
[11:01] <sistpoty> Ademan: ubuntu has ppc packages
[11:01] <LaserJock> jdong: no, they do
[11:01] <LaserJock> jdong: but I get irritated when you complain about stuff you have the power to help fix
[11:01] <Ademan> sistpoty: for everything possible? (ie everything we've got the source for?)
[11:02] <sistpoty> Ademan: not for everything, since some packages won't build on ppc (not very much though)
[11:02] <jdong> LaserJock: ok, I see where you're coming from.
[11:02] <LaserJock> so yes, we could use faster response time
[11:02] <LaserJock> s
[11:02] <LaserJock> I think that can be said of any process
[11:02] <LaserJock> we all want things NOW
[11:02] <Ademan> sistpoty: really? is that just stuff that has machine specific asm? or what? what could make a package be unavailable?
[11:02] <LaserJock> but fast tracking upstreams doesn't seem to help much, IMO
[11:03] <jdong> LaserJock: I agree. It might band-aid a few situations but doesn't solve the underlying issues
[11:03] <LaserJock> we often don't get upstreams in here
[11:03] <sistpoty> Ademan: asm, little/big endian probs, errors with types (e.g. int as pointer, however that's amd64 and not ppc iirc)
[11:03] <LaserJock> and we even more rarely get upstreams that want to actively maintain their packages
[11:03] <LaserJock> most just drop by for a bug patch or something
[11:04] <LaserJock> or to notify us of some problem
[11:04] <jdong> LaserJock: it seems much more often that they wanna stop by to give us a patch
[11:04] <jdong> LaserJock: yeah, or point and yell at a bug report too :)
[11:04] <sistpoty> Ademan: depending on a compiler which doesn't work on ppc, (iirc fpc-compiler had or has the problem)
[11:04] <jdong> LaserJock: I guess I'm really guilty of that
[11:04] <LaserJock> so perhaps if we had a special upstream program
[11:04] <LaserJock> that would give them a single person as a point of contact
[11:04] <Ademan> sistpoty: ah, since i'm rather unfamiliar with most of the source code around here, are most of the apps out there going to work on ppc?  i assume most codecs won't though...
[11:05] <LaserJock> that's kinda give them an elevated priority
[11:05] <LaserJock> we already try to do that somewhat informally
[11:05] <jdong> Ademan: only 32-bit codecs will not work on ppc
[11:05] <LaserJock> if I see an upstream putting in a patch
[11:05] <jdong> Ademan: the full ffmpeg stack works on PPC
[11:05] <LaserJock> I'll get to it sooner than I would normally
[11:05] <jdong> Ademan: which will decode everything but Real Video 9
[11:05] <sistpoty> Ademan: I'd say about 99% of the packages for which we have the source code will work. For some stuff in universe (e.g. codecs) we don't have the source, so it won't work
[11:05] <Ademan> jdong: cool, that's good to hear
[11:06] <sistpoty> multiverse even
[11:06] <jdong> Ademan: that's not to say they will work smoothly; the last time I messed with PPC there were some issues with optimizations
[11:06] <jdong> Ademan: that is, turning on optimizations causes builds to fail, so to remedy we simply shut them off or reversed them.
[11:06] <lupine_85> 2 packages left...
[11:07] <nixternal> LaserJock: http://chi.ubuntu-us.org <- updated, look familiar? :)
[11:07] <nixternal> talk about a pita
[11:07] <lupine_85> can someone remind me how I sign packages, and how to upload to revu? ;)
[11:07] <Ademan> jdong: i assume that's a gcc problem, and didn't apple USE a modified gcc for Xcode?  (meaning that we're entitled to their source code and can use it to fix our broken ppc support?)
[11:07] <nixternal> lupine_85: debsign, or if you do dpkg-buildpackage -S -sa -rfakeroot -k2e23434
[11:07] <gnomefreak> lupine_85: i use -k<keyid>
[11:07] <nixternal> the -k will sign using that key
[11:08] <jdong> Ademan: I'm not sure about the total situation, but I encountered it a few times while working on x264
[11:08] <nixternal> dput revu *source_changes
[11:08] <gnomefreak> hmmm never used -S -sa
[11:08] <lupine_85> heh, debsign it is :)
[11:08] <Ademan> well thanks jdong and sistpoty   i'll let you guys get back to more important business
[11:08] <jdong> Ademan: there's developers around here with ppc, but not nearly as many as i386, so most of the times the approach taken is one by a clueless i386 user who just does anything to get it to compile again :)
[11:09] <nixternal> once I get a graphics card I will have a ppc dev box
[11:09] <nixternal> or I could always donate this box to Ubuntu if needed because I doubt I will ever use it
[11:11] <gnomefreak> i plan on running out to buy a ppc when they drop the price a few thousand dollars
[11:12] <jdong> I don't think me having a ppc would make me more competent
[11:12] <jdong> I don't think one learns Altivec thru osmosis :)
[11:13] <gnomefreak> jdong: is there a limit on how long a package should be tested before backported?
[11:13] <jdong> gnomefreak: meh it really depends on when my homework is finished :)
[11:13] <gnomefreak> lol :)
[11:13] <jdong> gnomefreak: so I'm guilty of the whole poking acceleration effect too...
[11:14] <gnomefreak> jdong: well i built them (i dont think they are right) but they are built and seem to work so far
[11:14] <jdong> gnomefreak: this is sun java6 right?
[11:14] <gnomefreak> i didnt merge it i just carried it over
[11:14] <gnomefreak> yes
[11:14] <jdong>  sun-java6 | 6-00-0ubuntu1~dapper1 | dapper-backports/multiverse | source
[11:14] <jdong>  sun-java6 | 6-00-0ubuntu1~edgy1 | edgy-backports/multiverse | source
[11:14] <gnomefreak> apt-get source * and than built source in edgy chroot
[11:15] <jdong> sun-java6-plugin | 6-00-0ubuntu1~dapper1 | dapper-backports/multiverse | i386
[11:15] <gnomefreak> already backported?
[11:15] <jdong> yeah
[11:15] <jdong> looks like it
[11:15] <gnomefreak> let me see :)
[11:15] <jdong> gnomefreak: you have no idea how many times I've done that myself....
[11:15] <LaserJock> nixternal: well done site. does seem a little familiar
[11:15] <jdong> 8 hours into a backporting night "hmm, this looks familiar...."
[11:15] <jdong> I look 1 comment above and I've already approved it
[11:15] <jdong> *smack*
[11:16] <gnomefreak> im looking i didnt have them enabled
[11:16] <jdong> hehe
[11:18] <gnomefreak> well just another package i have built gives me practice
[11:20] <lupine_85> ok... they all build here, and I think they're all signed. Now to try to upload...
[11:21] <gnomefreak> do we just upload the .changes file?
[11:21] <gnomefreak> for revu
[11:21] <lupine_85> I think the changes file pulls others
[11:21] <lupine_85> it lists others inside it
[11:21] <geser> yes, dput the changes files
[11:24] <lupine_85> Aaand up they go
[11:25] <lupine_85> where's revu hosted again?
[11:25] <lupine_85> it's been a while ;)
[11:25] <Fujitsu> lupine_85: Physically? ServerPronto in the US.
[11:25] <lupine_85> I meant URL, but good to know :)
[11:25] <Fujitsu> revu.tauware.de
[11:25] <lupine_85> thanks
[11:25] <lupine_85> eh, urgh. It's uploading .debs as well - sorry
[11:26] <geser> lupine_85: dput the next time only source .changes
[11:26] <sistpoty> lupine_85: cancel the upload please, revu won't accept binary packages
[11:26] <sistpoty> lupine_85: I'll clear the incoming dir then
[11:27] <lupine_85> cancelled
[11:27] <lupine_85> so do I rm the .deb files
[11:27] <lupine_85> ?
[11:27] <Fujitsu> lupine_85: dput revu blah_source.changes
[11:27] <gnomefreak> lupine_85: i dont think you can
[11:27] <Fujitsu> The _source.changes bit is the important part.
[11:27] <gnomefreak> you can only upload
[11:28] <lupine_85> Fujitsu: dput revu *changes is what I ran
[11:28] <geser> lupine_85: you should have to changes files, one for the source and one for the binaries
[11:28] <gnomefreak> i only get one
[11:28] <lupine_85> I've got 11 packages here ;)
[11:28] <Fujitsu> gnomefreak: debuild -S will only give you one. The -S means source-only.
[11:28] <gnomefreak> sun-java6_6-00-2-0ubuntu0.6.10_i386.changes
[11:28] <sistpoty> lupine_85: cleared (I hope I got them all), please retry
[11:29] <gnomefreak> Fujitsu: i only ran dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -k<id> 
[11:29] <gnomefreak> Fujitsu: so i should use -S -sa?
[11:29] <Fujitsu> debuild -S -sa, yep.
[11:29] <lupine_85> ah, shaft. Now it's complaining about the deb files being missing
[11:29] <gnomefreak> ah ok
[11:29] <sistpoty> lupine_85: please also try -S -sa to get a sourcepackage with full sources
[11:30] <sistpoty> (to dpkg-buildpackage or debuild)
[11:30] <lupine_85> So I take it I must rm everything, build with -S -sa -kwhatever, then upload
[11:30] <gnomefreak> The Utnubu team would be more than
[11:30] <gnomefreak> should that be ubuntu?
[11:30] <sistpoty> lupine_85: you needn't remove everything, but basically yes
[11:30] <gnomefreak> revu fron tpage
[11:30] <sistpoty> gnomefreak: /me looks
[11:31] <sistpoty> gnomefreak: no, utnubu is the debian team that wants to incorporate packages from ubuntu to debian (it's ubuntu reversed)
[11:31] <gnomefreak> ah
[11:32] <lupine_85> ah, sweet... this is fast
[11:32] <lupine_85> no building of binaries, and the for loop takes care of the rest :D
[11:33] <jdong> haha
[11:33] <gnomefreak> once uploaded to revu someone else takes it?
[11:33] <jdong> hear the distant groan of motu's everywhere :)
[11:33] <lupine_85> Uploading via ftp aquamarine_0.2.1-0ubuntu1.dsc: Error '553 Could not create file.' during ftp transfer of aquamarine_0.2.1-0ubuntu1.dsc
[11:34] <lupine_85> the list of packages... aquamarine beryl-core beryl-manager beryl-plugins beryl-plugins-unsupported beryl-settings beryl-settings-bindings beryl-settings-simple emerald emerald-themes heliodor
[11:34] <lupine_85> I think incoming needs cleaning more ;)
[11:35] <sistpoty> lupine_85: ah, right I skipped aquamarine *g*
[11:35] <lupine_85> :)
[11:35] <geser> is there an order how to review it?
[11:35] <sistpoty> lupine_85: it's gone ;)
[11:35] <lupine_85> yep, uploading proceeding apache :)
[11:35] <stgraber> jdong: ok, I've done a patch and put it in the debian/patches stuff (dpatch), at least it applies and deapplies, the question now is will it fix the bug :)
[11:36] <lupine_85> apace, rather
[11:38] <lupine_85> so given that a load of packages here depend on a load of other packages... how does buildd cope with that?
[11:38] <gnomefreak> ha it works like a charm ty jdong :)
[11:39] <lupine_85> packages uploaded
[11:39] <sistpoty> lupine_85: a buildd will try to build them in order, however if one package's build dependencies cannot be met, it's retried later
[11:39] <lupine_85> ok
[11:39] <sistpoty> (however maybe LP is now smarter though I'm not sure)
[11:41] <lupine_85> w00t http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=4598
[11:41] <gnomefreak> do you need account to upload to revu?
[11:41] <gnomefreak> other than LP
[11:42] <geser> gnomefreak: you get only on your first upload
[11:42] <geser> s/only/one/ :)
[11:42] <gnomefreak> ah
[11:42] <sistpoty> gnomefreak: no, revu will sync the keyring from LP every 24 hours, and that's all needed for uploading
[11:42] <gnomefreak> all the packages ive been working on are in main :(
[11:43] <gnomefreak> maybe ill look for an easy fix bug in package for multi or uni and fix it
[11:43] <lupine_85> wooo, lintian warnings
[11:44] <sistpoty> gnomefreak: have you subscribed ubuntu-main-sponsors?
[11:44] <geser> lupine_85: could you please create non-native packages? one with a diff.gz
[11:45] <sistpoty> lupine_85: you can ignore some, but not all ;)
[11:45] <lupine_85> geser: I have no idea what that means
[11:45] <gnomefreak> sistpoty: no asac does all the uploading for firefox stuff i just build for pratice nad some testing fixes
[11:45] <sistpoty> gnomefreak: ah, k
[11:46] <geser> lupine_85: there are two types of source packages: native and non-native
[11:46] <sistpoty> lupine_85: you orig.tar.gz needs to be named name_<upstream-versoin>.orig.tar.gz, that's all
[11:47] <lupine_85> ok... upstream version being 0.2.1? Then re-upload?
[11:47] <geser> native consists only of a .dsc and a tar.gz are usually used for Debian/Ubuntu-specific packages
[11:47] <sistpoty> lupine_85: yes... if you look at the .changes file, it should list 3 files one being the .orig.tar.gz, then you know you've done it right
[11:48] <geser> non-native consists of .dsc, .diff.gz (all changes inkl. debian dir) and .orig.tar.gz (unmodified upstream source)
[11:48] <lupine_85> ok.. right now they're of the form aquamarine-0.2.1.tar.gz
[11:48] <sistpoty> hehe, the old typo: "-" -> "_"
[11:49] <sistpoty> bit mit quite a few times
[11:54] <sistpoty> lupine_85: got that with the orig.tar.gz? it should be aquamarine_0.2.1.orig.tar.gz
[11:54] <lupine_85> sistpoty: yep
[11:54] <sistpoty> :)
[11:54] <lupine_85> doing it for 11 packages takes more time ;)
[11:54] <sistpoty> hehe
[11:54] <lupine_85> any other changes before I reupload?
[11:54] <lupine_85> or should I just do it?
[11:55] <sistpoty> just spotted one thing with aquamarine... let me take a quick look again
[11:55] <sistpoty> W: aquamarine source: maintainer-script-lacks-debhelper-token debian/aquamarine.postinst
[11:55] <lupine_85> mm, I fail at postinst scripts
[11:55] <lupine_85> the same is in emerald, heliodor and beryl-core
[11:55] <sistpoty> in the aquamarine.postinst, you should put in #DEBHELPER# at some place. it will get replaced with whatever debhelper wants to put in there then
[11:56] <lupine_85> I just want the postinst scripts in the .deb files (it's the only fugly hack I have, IMO - see the rules file)
[11:56] <lupine_85> so is the lack of #DEBHELPER# why they weren't getting included in the .deb files?
[11:56] <geser> lupine_85: change the build-depend on libgl1-dev in beryl-core to libgl1-mesa-dev
[11:56] <lupine_85> geser: hehe, ok.. I changed it to libgl1-dev for the benefit of a debian user
[11:57] <sistpoty> lupine_85: not quite sure actually... but I assume it could be the case
[11:57] <geser> libgl1-dev is a pure virtual package and you can't depend on as the buildds don't know which one to pick
[11:58] <geser> lupine_85: but you can change it to libgl1-mesa-dev | libgl1-dev to serve also the debian users
[11:58] <lupine_85> well, I'll remove fugly hack from the rules and hope for the best
[11:58] <lupine_85> geser: ok, I'll do that
[11:59] <geser> libgl-dev has no 1 in its name
[11:59] <lupine_85> (fugly hack being in beryl-core/debian/rules: "install/beryl-core::" ;) )
[12:01] <sistpoty> lupine_85: in what binary package do you want the postinst being put? into beryl-core or into beryl?
[12:01] <lupine_85> sistpoty: beryl-core
[12:01] <sistpoty> then it should actually work w.o the hack
[12:01] <lupine_85> it registers the "beryl" binary with x-window-manager
[12:02] <lupine_85> I hope it works :)
[12:02] <stgraber> jdong: I've just finished doing the debdiff and testing it, it's attached to the bug report, what do I do next ? (I don't really know how edgy-update works) (And as I said as comment I doubt my changelog is correct but I didn't know what else to put)
[12:03] <jdong> stgraber: I'm also not 100% sure of the main SRU process...
[12:03] <jdong> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[12:03] <lupine_85> version bump?
[12:03] <geser> no need
[12:04] <lupine_85> ok, so just upload...
[12:04] <geser> yes
[12:04] <sistpoty> (there's no binary from revu... so no need to bump the version)
[12:04] <geser> a version is only need when it reached the archive
[12:04] <geser> archive = the ubuntu archive
[12:05] <lupine_85> ok
[12:06] <lupine_85> ah, now it mentions the orig and a diff 
[12:06] <geser> good
[12:07] <lupine_85> hehe, though dput is saying the orig might not be needed ;)
[12:07] <sistpoty> dput doesn't know about revu's missing features and about the ubuntu package naming scheme *g*
[12:07] <lupine_85> :)
[12:10] <lupine_85> ok, up