/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2007/03/23/#ubuntu-marketing.txt

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Burgundaviaanybody alive?03:10
=== tonyyarusso is, but don't take that too seriously
Burgundaviatonyyarusso: I have braindumped a bunch of stuff on the beta page03:12
tonyyarussoBurgundavia: put a link in the topic03:12
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poningrunixternal: ping06:29
poningrutake a look at feisty beta release page06:30
poningruhttps://wiki.kubuntu.org/FeistyFawn/Beta/06:30
poningrusomeone messed around with it I think06:30
poningruI think they copied herd 4 ubuntu06:30
Admiral_Chicagohttps://wiki.kubuntu.org/FeistyFawn/Beta?action=diff06:35
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poningruwhatever06:37
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poningruGAAAAAh06:41
poningrunixternal: did you see that?06:44
poningruyour's was better06:44
poningruthe other one seemed to be just herd 406:44
nixternalwhat?06:44
nixternalI missed something06:44
poningruhttps://wiki.kubuntu.org/FeistyFawn/Beta/06:46
poningruseem to be just herd 406:46
poningruas opposed to your really cool one06:46
poningrulike the oem thing is gone06:46
nixternalyou guys quit stealing my mojo :)06:48
nixternalknock them shadows down a bit06:48
nixternalis that 8 8 15 8006:48
nixternal2 2 4 50 is the best drop shadow, very clean and yet gives that floating appearance06:49
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Burgundaviabeuno: you around?08:00
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Burgundaviaok, need somebody to finish up https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyFawn/Beta08:06
BurgundaviaI need to head to bed, otherwise I would do it08:06
rjianhello Burgundavia 08:06
Burgundaviahey rjian, long time no see08:07
rjianjust around hehe creating articles hehe08:07
rjianBurgundavia: u bz ? hehe08:08
MenZa:o08:27
MenZaBeta :o08:27
=== MenZa is intrigued.
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mindspinwhat is the email addy for the fridge team?11:49
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meatballhatjenda: ping!03:25
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jendameatballhat: pong!03:27
meatballhatjenda: isn't April 1st a Sunday??03:27
jendayep03:27
meatballhat:D   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Meetings03:27
jendaYes... I know...03:28
jendaaha03:28
jendaright :)03:28
jendaThat's an April fool's joke, meatballhat ;)03:28
jenda(fixed)03:28
meatballhatthen I fell for it  ;-)03:29
meatballhatChristina Armstrong has left Canonical???   whaa?03:29
jendayep03:31
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beunomornin'03:31
jendamornin' ;)03:32
beunoI've just sent an email to the mailing list, but it looks like we're doing duplicate work:    03:32
beunohttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyFawn/Beta03:32
beunohttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyBetaAnnouncement03:32
beunoand neither is finished for today, the beta release date  :(03:32
meatballhat<meatballhat> Christina Armstrong has left Canonical???   whaa?  ...  <jenda> yep .... and yet she's still responding to email with her canonical.com addy?   ( /me = doesn't like ghosts and/or goblins)  03:38
jendameatballhat: read her mail ;)03:38
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=== meatballhat removes foot from mouth :P
meatballhatjenda: you and your "reading"  03:40
jenda:)03:40
jendameatballhat: within a few years, it'll likely be my job.03:40
jenda(to read)03:40
=== jenda gets to send out about 10 packs of CDs a day...
meatballhatjenda: that's my wife's dream job ...  mine is to listen to music ...   :P03:42
jendaI must say I don't envy shipit... 03:42
meatballhatoh boy!03:42
jendahehe03:42
jendaAnd what's worse - I pay for this from my own money ;)03:43
jenda(although most people understood the concept of 'voluntary donation' quite well, so I should strike pretty close to even in the end)03:43
crimsunwhat use is money if it's not spent on voluntary efforts?03:44
jendacrimsun++ ;)03:57
meatballhat+1 from /me, too  :D04:03
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poningrugaaah07:25
poningruthat armstrong person did not respond to like 20 of my emails07:25
poningruand tony isnt here so I can bitch at him07:26
Burgworkponingru: she is responding the mailing list07:28
Burgworkand she has been very busy with the website fresh07:28
Burgworkrefresh07:28
poningruWTH07:29
poningruI thought matt was the only guy working on that07:29
poningruBurgwork: I basically proposed what tony said, like a while ago and sent it like 20 times to jono, and christina07:30
poningruI even wrote up a spec on it07:30
Burgworkright07:30
poningrubut nope07:30
poningruzero response from her07:30
Burgworklet me raise it with her07:30
Burgworksee what happened07:30
poningrunow I dont know who this new person is07:30
poningruchris kenyon07:31
Burgworkhe is not new07:32
poningruor never mind07:32
poningrujust got an email from armstrong07:32
Burgworkexcellent07:33
poningruah its about me asking her to attend the meeting07:33
poningruand she basically saying no since she is leaving07:34
Burgworkahh07:34
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poningruis chris kenyon at all in IRC?07:35
poningruwhat is up with free software companies hiring people who do not want to work with community??07:38
poningrucanonical, mofo all same07:38
=== poningru stabs his eyes out with a rusty knife
adamant1988poningru: I'm sure they're busy.07:38
poningruadamant1988: well then let me FRACKING HELP07:39
adamant1988You have to remember, they're not paid to do the stuff you and I do, they have added responsibilities. 07:39
poningruyeah then let me take some of those on07:39
poningruinstead of not responding to my emails, tell me how I can help07:39
adamant1988They'll do it when they can I'm sure;07:39
poningrulike I had to bitch and moan at matt for about a year before he let me start working on website07:40
poningruand at mofo07:40
poningrumarketing SUCKS07:40
poningruthe girl who is there supposedly running the college campaign07:40
poningruwont even respond to my emails regarding using freeculture07:40
adamant1988freeculture?07:41
poningrufreeculture.org07:41
poningruits a international student organization07:41
poningruabout free software, CC, better intellectual property07:41
=== poningru is the cofounder of florida freeculture
adamant1988Gee, I can't help but wonder why you would want to use it then.07:42
poningruand we would love to help out in marketing of firefox on college campuses07:42
poningruwe are not asking for any fees or anything07:43
poningruwe just wanna help07:43
poningrubut ofcourse the lady does not respond to any of my emails07:43
adamant1988What do you know about the college demographic?07:43
poningruI sent 2 and said frack this07:43
adamant1988Because I know if *I* was going to piggyback any services at all to get to them, I'd go through FaceBook,.07:43
poningruapart from being one and actually doing tons of these kinds of campaigns?07:43
adamant1988poningru: And have you had any documented successes? 07:44
poningru...07:44
poningrudefectivebydesign.org07:44
adamant1988Being a member of a demographic can make it nearly impossible to be objective when analyzing it. 07:44
poningrupublicaccesstoresearch.org07:44
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poningrutrust me we have done tons of marketing campaigns07:44
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poningruwe did a crap load for cc back in the day07:45
poningruwhy do you think fsf, pk, etc. all want to use us?07:45
adamant1988Do they want to, or did you just get them to?07:45
poningruno they come to us07:45
poningruin the case of defectivebydesign.org07:46
poningruthey came to us07:46
adamant1988uh huh, well, Defective by design looks like a rediculous scare tactic.07:46
=== poningru shakes head
adamant1988Oh sorry, probably should have sugar coated that.07:46
poningruyeah thats it dude07:47
adamant1988the defectivebydesign.org website is incredibly slanted and biased, I wouldn't trust it07:47
=== poningru is actually rofling right now
poningruits cool that you wanna try to knock me down or whatever dude...07:47
adamant1988Feel free to laugh, I'm being serious.07:47
poningrubut dont try to do that with established marketing campaigns07:48
adamant1988Yeah, established scare tactics.  Awesome.07:48
poningrubut yeah you need some lessons in belittling someone too it seems07:48
adamant1988I'm not trying to.07:48
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poningruuh... sure if you say so07:48
poningrubtw we should probably take this to non-ubuntu channel07:49
poningruthis is getting non-soc fast07:49
adamant1988I'm making a point, your organizations "campaign" services should not be utilized for the marketing team.07:49
poningruhooray for not belittling someone07:49
poningrulike I said you need lessons in that07:49
adamant1988I'm not trying to belittle you, I'm a member of your "college demographic" too, and frankly none of these sites look like something I would trust or visit more than once.07:50
adamant1988Yes, highly effective.07:50
poningruadamant1988: you are not understanding the campaign07:50
poningruthese websites are not meant to be entirely used for the convincing people to do anything07:51
adamant1988I'm even a member of *the* target audience, I'm an informed open-source advocate, and the dbd.org site looks like a rediculous attempt to slant my opinion07:51
poningruits the physical talking that is the campaign07:51
poningrualso keep in mind we cant claim credit for the hazard suits awesomeness07:52
poningruthat was all fsf07:52
adamant1988Now, I like the letter to Steve Jobs and such, but I don't think it's effective.07:52
poningruwell duh... its not meant to be effective against steve jobs07:53
poningruits meant to show the hypocrisy in what he is saying07:53
poningruto other people07:53
adamant1988Ok, do you have traffic counts?07:53
=== MenZa throws a facebook at poningru
adamant1988I want to see what kind of exposure the site gets. 07:53
poningrutraffic counts?07:54
poningruadamant1988: you still dont understand07:54
adamant1988If the physical talking is your campaign, then it wasn't smart to try to sway me with the url.07:54
poningruthat site is not meant to be a frontend for convincing people07:54
poningruadamant1988: sure it was07:54
poningrucause you are supposed to be a marketer07:55
poningrua 'informed open-source advocate'07:55
poningrus/a/an07:55
adamant1988Which I am, so if you're going to give me the URL and then tell me "Oh that doesn't matter" then what was the point?07:55
poningruno it doesnt matter to the end-user who we are trying to reach07:56
poningruthat url matters to other marketers07:56
adamant1988I wouldn't use it.07:56
poningrui...c07:56
adamant1988It's heavily biased, if I was going to use some kind of service for my material, I would pick an objective one.07:56
poningrudude...07:57
poningruobjectivity in marketing?07:57
poningruare you sure?07:57
adamant1988poningru: I'm a firm believe in data, I've had success with marketing tactics that don't require me to say something that's not true, or slant the evidence in my favor.07:57
adamant1988If I can't market something on it's own merits, it's not worth marketing.07:58
poningruI never said any of those07:58
poningruyou just present all the good arguments of one side07:58
adamant1988Instead of preaching "DRM is Evil" you should be saying "This is why non-DRM is better" and be clear and concise as to why.07:59
poningruuh... no dude07:59
poningruthats not how you are supposed to be doing it07:59
poningruwhile that should take up a small portion of your points07:59
poningruit should not be the majority07:59
poningruyou are still thinking the build em and they will come philosophy08:00
adamant1988No, I'm thinking in the "I'd rather not slant my information" philosophy.08:00
poningruno one is slanting any information08:00
adamant1988... So you call presenting a one sided argument NOT slanting?08:01
poningruwhat information is being 'slanted'08:01
adamant1988No you're right, there is absolutely NO bias there at all.08:01
poningru...08:01
poningruread through my conversation08:02
poningruI can just copy and paste my statements from above08:02
adamant1988I bet your "Physical conversations" are just as heavily biased.08:02
adamant1988If not more.08:02
adamant1988Have you bothered to watch any competitive adverts lately? 08:02
poningruexplain08:03
poningruif you are telling me that these competitive advertz dont have any bias and present 'information'08:03
poningrubut no go ahead08:03
poningruexplain to me your marketing idea then dude08:04
adamant1988They present accurate information, just look at ANY Red Hat adverts. 08:04
poningruyou present all the information and let the user decide?08:04
adamant1988poningru: You present the information in the appropriate format, just don't slant it. 08:04
beunoI have to agree with poningru, marketing isn't about presenting the information and letting the users decide, that only works for a small fraction of users08:05
poningruso you say things like 'linux doesnt have any desktop market share'08:05
=== beuno butts in
poningru??08:05
adamant1988poningru: Or you say "Linux has a rapidly growing market share"08:05
adamant1988Both are true.08:05
poningruadamant1988: EXACTLY08:06
poningrubut thats slanting according to you08:06
poningruand should not be done08:06
adamant1988No, slanting is not presenting the other side at all.08:06
poningruWTF08:06
poningruyou didnt present the other side there08:06
poningruyou said it has a rapidly growing market share08:06
poningrudidnt say anything about current market share08:06
adamant1988If I was going to make an advert out of that, I would show the growth08:07
poningruyes exactly08:07
poningruyou emphasis the growth, and take attention away from the fact that right now it doesnt have any 08:07
adamant1988Ok, so I would show the growth, I would show a statistic in a form where it was readable/entertaining.   But you don't lie about the competitors. 08:08
poningruand I guess I can see how some people see this as 'slant' but thats what marketing is08:08
adamant1988"DRM is evil!"08:08
adamant1988Ok, DRM is NOT evil, and saying so is a blatant attempt to bias me.  08:08
poningruadamant1988: how is that false?08:08
poningrudrm is evil08:09
adamant1988hardly, DRM is an anti-theft device on media to prevent unauthorized distribution according to the law.  The fact that we disagree does not make it evil, it CAN make it unethical though.08:09
poningrulol08:09
adamant1988I agree, DRM is unethical, but hardly Evil.08:10
adamant1988I don't think Satan himself has had a hand in it. 08:10
poningruevil == marketing speak for unethical08:10
adamant1988And *that* is what I'm talking about. 08:10
poningrubrb08:11
poningruwhat is '*that*'?08:12
poningrusorry brb we have a person here to fix the dishwasher08:13
adamant1988Using a word substitute that warps what you're saying into a different beast.08:14
adamant1988"Unethical08:15
adamant1988Not ethical; not in accordance with the standards followed in a business or profession."08:15
adamant1988http://www.answers.com/Evil08:16
adamant1988The differences are pretty clear.  Of course obviously there is some overlap since you like the FSF and probably agree with RMS on most of his points.08:18
poningruno dude the difference is not that clear in an end user's view point08:30
poningrusorry the guy just left08:30
poningruanyway08:30
adamant1988Ask anyone what they associate with the word Evil, and I bet you you'll find the difference is even greater.08:30
poningruadamant1988: the entire point of marketing is to show your product as really good08:31
poningruwithout seeming ape-shit crazy08:31
adamant1988poningru: Then show your product as good without calling the otherone on things that aren't true.08:31
poningruclearly RMS does not fullfill this criterion08:31
poningruadamant1988: thats a given08:31
adamant1988"DRM is Evil" is blatantly opinionated.  "DRM is a violation of your consumer rights" is a much more true statement.08:31
poningruso you are saying you shouldnt have opinions in them?08:32
poningrulol08:32
adamant1988Well, opinionated was the wrong word I suppose. 08:32
adamant1988But I would keep opinions as far from it as possible.08:32
adamant1988But, I can understand why the FSF would utilize your services.08:33
poningruso what kinda things shouldnt be in advertz?08:38
poningruyou already said slanting is ok08:38
poningruand opinions are allowed08:38
poningruso...08:38
poningruwhat isnt allowed?08:38
poningrublatantly lieing? we agree on that08:39
adamant1988I supposed the extremes of slanting and opinionated/biased advertisind?08:39
poningruany sort of lying is wrong08:39
adamant1988advertising*08:39
poningruso where do you draw the line? and why is your line the one that matters?08:39
adamant1988Calling something evil is a bit extreme, and probably not as effective as you would like it to be. 08:40
poningruactually dude its really effective I would say08:40
poningruyou just have to do it without making yourself seem complete ape-shit crazy08:40
adamant1988poningru: Do a little study for yourself, tell 10 people that DRM is evil, and tell the other 10 that it's a violation of their consumer rights. 08:40
adamant1988I bet the latter is more effective. 08:40
poningruadamant1988: I would much rather tell them both08:41
poningruadamant1988: you honestly dont think nixternal here is gonna go and tell someone "DRM IS EVIL" and just walk away do you?08:41
adamant1988I avoid using such extremes, and I've had good success locally educating people about DRM.08:41
nixternalno, I am going to punch them in the face before I walk away :)08:41
poningrulol08:42
beunofinally some sense...08:42
adamant1988poningru: if your goal is to make them think DRM is evil, then you're going to keep pushing that idea.08:42
adamant1988By the time you're finished they'll think of the RIAA leadership as relatives of Hitler.08:43
poningruthey will?08:43
poningrudamn my skillz amaze even me08:43
nixternalRIAA is worse than Hitler08:43
adamant1988it was an example.  08:43
poningruI didnt know i had such awesome skillz08:43
beunomainly because hitler is dead08:43
nixternalI tell people at church that DRM is the anti-christ and they need to stear clear of it. I am going to find a verse eventually in the Bible that will back that up :)08:44
mindspinsure you will08:44
adamant1988nixternal: Just add it in there somewhere, they'll never notice08:44
beunowikibible!08:44
adamant1988I bet the only one who's actually really read the thing is the preacher.08:45
nixternalhehe08:45
nixternaldude, the Bible is copyrighted08:45
nixternalthat is nuts08:46
adamant1988"And Jesus said unto his followers, do not download mp3s with DRM, for they are evil and unjust"08:46
nixternalno, Jesus said "don't download mp3's period!"08:46
adamant1988pfft I download Mp3s.08:46
nixternalpurchase your music, rip it to ogg (vorbis, or whatever), and trade with thy neighbor08:46
nixternalI don't download music08:47
adamant1988Meh, all my friends use the standard.  I download classical all the time.08:47
adamant1988I use Classical when I'm writing and stuff, and it's obviously not protected by copyright anymore, so no DMCA violations for me08:47
poningruactually dude08:48
poningruthe performances are copyrighted08:48
crimsunnixternal: don't you mean "translations are copyrighted"?08:48
adamant1988I really need to start getting my friends using vorbis. 08:48
poningrueven though the sheet music isnt08:48
nixternalwith Last.fm, I don't have to download anymore08:48
nixternalcrimsun: yes :)08:48
nixternalbut you know what I mean ;p08:48
nixternalman, this guy follows me everywhere08:49
adamant1988poningru: Hrmm, oh well, guess I need to stop using google to find the stuff :( 08:49
nixternalGoogle is the devil!08:49
poningruadamant1988: find british royal orchestra's performances08:49
poningruthey are pd08:49
nixternaldownloading mp3s, movies, office, xp, vista, or whatever, is the life of a MySpacetard08:50
crimsunnixternal's surfing myspace using ie7 on vista as we type08:50
nixternalI do not condone it, do not enjoy it, and actually when I hear someone at school talk about their MySpace friends like they are real, I beat them up ;p08:50
nixternalhahaha crimsun, I am waiting for someone to blog something like that :)08:51
nixternalcrimsun: actually, imbrandon is such a Windows junky, he runs Kubuntu with a Vista theme and actually created the ever so popular Royal theme for KDE and KBFX or whatever it is called08:51
nixternalMy KDE theme screams KDE. I jsut recently switched from Plastik to QtCurve, but kept the inverted look, and even use the default KDE colors, with a semi transparent kicker, and a picture of Cabo San Lucas as my wallpaper08:52
adamant1988nixternal: EEWWWW KDE USZR!!!08:53
nixternalhrmm08:53
=== nixternal doesn't get in the battle of GNOME vs. KDE
poningruoh come on08:53
poningruthose are fun08:53
adamant1988No, Vi vs Emacs arguments are better08:54
nixternalKate FTW!08:56
nixternalI use emacs when running tty1-6, and I use Kate when I am in the GUI08:56
=== beuno is reminided of a slashdot poll: http://slashdot.org/pollBooth.pl?qid=1396
beunoNinjas vs Pirates!08:56
nixternalthat is what I just picked08:57
nixternalhaha08:57
beunoit's hard not to08:59
=== Burgwork [n=corey@ubuntu/member/burgundavia] has joined #ubuntu-marketing
beunoBurgwork: I've been a bit disconnected from UWN, but I'm getting it up to speed in the weekend, it's still going out sunday10:27
Admiral_Chicagobeuno: won't be able to help with UWN, maybe tomorrow10:27
beunoAdmiral_Chicago: tomorrow works too  :D10:27
Admiral_Chicagobtw, congrats on memberstip10:27
Admiral_Chicagoship*10:27
beunothanks!  and thanks for the support10:28
Admiral_Chicagonp10:28
Burgworkbeuno: sounds good10:30
BurgworkI have the whole weekend free, so I will work on it on Saturday10:30
beunogreat, so we'll all be available10:30
beunojenda has been working to get the UWN exposed on ubuntu's front page!10:31
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