[03:10] <Burgundavia> anybody alive?
[03:12] <Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: I have braindumped a bunch of stuff on the beta page
[03:12] <tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: put a link in the topic
[06:29] <poningru> nixternal: ping
[06:30] <poningru> take a look at feisty beta release page
[06:30] <poningru> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/FeistyFawn/Beta/
[06:30] <poningru> someone messed around with it I think
[06:30] <poningru> I think they copied herd 4 ubuntu
[06:35] <Admiral_Chicago> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/FeistyFawn/Beta?action=diff
[06:37] <poningru> whatever
[06:41] <poningru> GAAAAAh
[06:44] <poningru> nixternal: did you see that?
[06:44] <poningru> your's was better
[06:44] <poningru> the other one seemed to be just herd 4
[06:44] <nixternal> what?
[06:44] <nixternal> I missed something
[06:46] <poningru> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/FeistyFawn/Beta/
[06:46] <poningru> seem to be just herd 4
[06:46] <poningru> as opposed to your really cool one
[06:46] <poningru> like the oem thing is gone
[06:48] <nixternal> you guys quit stealing my mojo :)
[06:48] <nixternal> knock them shadows down a bit
[06:48] <nixternal> is that 8 8 15 80
[06:49] <nixternal> 2 2 4 50 is the best drop shadow, very clean and yet gives that floating appearance
[08:00] <Burgundavia> beuno: you around?
[08:06] <Burgundavia> ok, need somebody to finish up https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyFawn/Beta
[08:06] <Burgundavia> I need to head to bed, otherwise I would do it
[08:06] <rjian> hello Burgundavia 
[08:07] <Burgundavia> hey rjian, long time no see
[08:07] <rjian> just around hehe creating articles hehe
[08:08] <rjian> Burgundavia: u bz ? hehe
[08:27] <MenZa> :o
[08:27] <MenZa> Beta :o
[11:49] <mindspin> what is the email addy for the fridge team?
[03:25] <meatballhat> jenda: ping!
[03:27] <jenda> meatballhat: pong!
[03:27] <meatballhat> jenda: isn't April 1st a Sunday??
[03:27] <jenda> yep
[03:27] <meatballhat> :D   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Meetings
[03:28] <jenda> Yes... I know...
[03:28] <jenda> aha
[03:28] <jenda> right :)
[03:28] <jenda> That's an April fool's joke, meatballhat ;)
[03:28] <jenda> (fixed)
[03:29] <meatballhat> then I fell for it  ;-)
[03:29] <meatballhat> Christina Armstrong has left Canonical???   whaa?
[03:31] <jenda> yep
[03:31] <beuno> mornin'
[03:32] <jenda> mornin' ;)
[03:32] <beuno> I've just sent an email to the mailing list, but it looks like we're doing duplicate work:    
[03:32] <beuno> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyFawn/Beta
[03:32] <beuno> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyBetaAnnouncement
[03:32] <beuno> and neither is finished for today, the beta release date  :(
 Christina Armstrong has left Canonical???   whaa?  ...  <jenda> yep .... and yet she's still responding to email with her canonical.com addy?   ( /me = doesn't like ghosts and/or goblins)  
[03:38] <jenda> meatballhat: read her mail ;)
[03:40] <meatballhat> jenda: you and your "reading"  
[03:40] <jenda> :)
[03:40] <jenda> meatballhat: within a few years, it'll likely be my job.
[03:40] <jenda> (to read)
[03:42] <meatballhat> jenda: that's my wife's dream job ...  mine is to listen to music ...   :P
[03:42] <jenda> I must say I don't envy shipit... 
[03:42] <meatballhat> oh boy!
[03:42] <jenda> hehe
[03:43] <jenda> And what's worse - I pay for this from my own money ;)
[03:43] <jenda> (although most people understood the concept of 'voluntary donation' quite well, so I should strike pretty close to even in the end)
[03:44] <crimsun> what use is money if it's not spent on voluntary efforts?
[03:57] <jenda> crimsun++ ;)
[04:03] <meatballhat> +1 from /me, too  :D
[07:25] <poningru> gaaah
[07:25] <poningru> that armstrong person did not respond to like 20 of my emails
[07:26] <poningru> and tony isnt here so I can bitch at him
[07:28] <Burgwork> poningru: she is responding the mailing list
[07:28] <Burgwork> and she has been very busy with the website fresh
[07:28] <Burgwork> refresh
[07:29] <poningru> WTH
[07:29] <poningru> I thought matt was the only guy working on that
[07:30] <poningru> Burgwork: I basically proposed what tony said, like a while ago and sent it like 20 times to jono, and christina
[07:30] <poningru> I even wrote up a spec on it
[07:30] <Burgwork> right
[07:30] <poningru> but nope
[07:30] <poningru> zero response from her
[07:30] <Burgwork> let me raise it with her
[07:30] <Burgwork> see what happened
[07:30] <poningru> now I dont know who this new person is
[07:31] <poningru> chris kenyon
[07:32] <Burgwork> he is not new
[07:32] <poningru> or never mind
[07:32] <poningru> just got an email from armstrong
[07:33] <Burgwork> excellent
[07:33] <poningru> ah its about me asking her to attend the meeting
[07:34] <poningru> and she basically saying no since she is leaving
[07:34] <Burgwork> ahh
[07:35] <poningru> is chris kenyon at all in IRC?
[07:38] <poningru> what is up with free software companies hiring people who do not want to work with community??
[07:38] <poningru> canonical, mofo all same
[07:38] <adamant1988> poningru: I'm sure they're busy.
[07:39] <poningru> adamant1988: well then let me FRACKING HELP
[07:39] <adamant1988> You have to remember, they're not paid to do the stuff you and I do, they have added responsibilities. 
[07:39] <poningru> yeah then let me take some of those on
[07:39] <poningru> instead of not responding to my emails, tell me how I can help
[07:39] <adamant1988> They'll do it when they can I'm sure;
[07:40] <poningru> like I had to bitch and moan at matt for about a year before he let me start working on website
[07:40] <poningru> and at mofo
[07:40] <poningru> marketing SUCKS
[07:40] <poningru> the girl who is there supposedly running the college campaign
[07:40] <poningru> wont even respond to my emails regarding using freeculture
[07:41] <adamant1988> freeculture?
[07:41] <poningru> freeculture.org
[07:41] <poningru> its a international student organization
[07:41] <poningru> about free software, CC, better intellectual property
[07:42] <adamant1988> Gee, I can't help but wonder why you would want to use it then.
[07:42] <poningru> and we would love to help out in marketing of firefox on college campuses
[07:43] <poningru> we are not asking for any fees or anything
[07:43] <poningru> we just wanna help
[07:43] <poningru> but ofcourse the lady does not respond to any of my emails
[07:43] <adamant1988> What do you know about the college demographic?
[07:43] <poningru> I sent 2 and said frack this
[07:43] <adamant1988> Because I know if *I* was going to piggyback any services at all to get to them, I'd go through FaceBook,.
[07:43] <poningru> apart from being one and actually doing tons of these kinds of campaigns?
[07:44] <adamant1988> poningru: And have you had any documented successes? 
[07:44] <poningru> ...
[07:44] <poningru> defectivebydesign.org
[07:44] <adamant1988> Being a member of a demographic can make it nearly impossible to be objective when analyzing it. 
[07:44] <poningru> publicaccesstoresearch.org
[07:44] <poningru> trust me we have done tons of marketing campaigns
[07:45] <poningru> we did a crap load for cc back in the day
[07:45] <poningru> why do you think fsf, pk, etc. all want to use us?
[07:45] <adamant1988> Do they want to, or did you just get them to?
[07:45] <poningru> no they come to us
[07:46] <poningru> in the case of defectivebydesign.org
[07:46] <poningru> they came to us
[07:46] <adamant1988> uh huh, well, Defective by design looks like a rediculous scare tactic.
[07:46] <adamant1988> Oh sorry, probably should have sugar coated that.
[07:47] <poningru> yeah thats it dude
[07:47] <adamant1988> the defectivebydesign.org website is incredibly slanted and biased, I wouldn't trust it
[07:47] <poningru> its cool that you wanna try to knock me down or whatever dude...
[07:47] <adamant1988> Feel free to laugh, I'm being serious.
[07:48] <poningru> but dont try to do that with established marketing campaigns
[07:48] <adamant1988> Yeah, established scare tactics.  Awesome.
[07:48] <poningru> but yeah you need some lessons in belittling someone too it seems
[07:48] <adamant1988> I'm not trying to.
[07:48] <poningru> uh... sure if you say so
[07:49] <poningru> btw we should probably take this to non-ubuntu channel
[07:49] <poningru> this is getting non-soc fast
[07:49] <adamant1988> I'm making a point, your organizations "campaign" services should not be utilized for the marketing team.
[07:49] <poningru> hooray for not belittling someone
[07:49] <poningru> like I said you need lessons in that
[07:50] <adamant1988> I'm not trying to belittle you, I'm a member of your "college demographic" too, and frankly none of these sites look like something I would trust or visit more than once.
[07:50] <adamant1988> Yes, highly effective.
[07:50] <poningru> adamant1988: you are not understanding the campaign
[07:51] <poningru> these websites are not meant to be entirely used for the convincing people to do anything
[07:51] <adamant1988> I'm even a member of *the* target audience, I'm an informed open-source advocate, and the dbd.org site looks like a rediculous attempt to slant my opinion
[07:51] <poningru> its the physical talking that is the campaign
[07:52] <poningru> also keep in mind we cant claim credit for the hazard suits awesomeness
[07:52] <poningru> that was all fsf
[07:52] <adamant1988> Now, I like the letter to Steve Jobs and such, but I don't think it's effective.
[07:53] <poningru> well duh... its not meant to be effective against steve jobs
[07:53] <poningru> its meant to show the hypocrisy in what he is saying
[07:53] <poningru> to other people
[07:53] <adamant1988> Ok, do you have traffic counts?
[07:53] <adamant1988> I want to see what kind of exposure the site gets. 
[07:54] <poningru> traffic counts?
[07:54] <poningru> adamant1988: you still dont understand
[07:54] <adamant1988> If the physical talking is your campaign, then it wasn't smart to try to sway me with the url.
[07:54] <poningru> that site is not meant to be a frontend for convincing people
[07:54] <poningru> adamant1988: sure it was
[07:55] <poningru> cause you are supposed to be a marketer
[07:55] <poningru> a 'informed open-source advocate'
[07:55] <poningru> s/a/an
[07:55] <adamant1988> Which I am, so if you're going to give me the URL and then tell me "Oh that doesn't matter" then what was the point?
[07:56] <poningru> no it doesnt matter to the end-user who we are trying to reach
[07:56] <poningru> that url matters to other marketers
[07:56] <adamant1988> I wouldn't use it.
[07:56] <poningru> i...c
[07:56] <adamant1988> It's heavily biased, if I was going to use some kind of service for my material, I would pick an objective one.
[07:57] <poningru> dude...
[07:57] <poningru> objectivity in marketing?
[07:57] <poningru> are you sure?
[07:57] <adamant1988> poningru: I'm a firm believe in data, I've had success with marketing tactics that don't require me to say something that's not true, or slant the evidence in my favor.
[07:58] <adamant1988> If I can't market something on it's own merits, it's not worth marketing.
[07:58] <poningru> I never said any of those
[07:58] <poningru> you just present all the good arguments of one side
[07:59] <adamant1988> Instead of preaching "DRM is Evil" you should be saying "This is why non-DRM is better" and be clear and concise as to why.
[07:59] <poningru> uh... no dude
[07:59] <poningru> thats not how you are supposed to be doing it
[07:59] <poningru> while that should take up a small portion of your points
[07:59] <poningru> it should not be the majority
[08:00] <poningru> you are still thinking the build em and they will come philosophy
[08:00] <adamant1988> No, I'm thinking in the "I'd rather not slant my information" philosophy.
[08:00] <poningru> no one is slanting any information
[08:01] <adamant1988> ... So you call presenting a one sided argument NOT slanting?
[08:01] <poningru> what information is being 'slanted'
[08:01] <adamant1988> No you're right, there is absolutely NO bias there at all.
[08:01] <poningru> ...
[08:02] <poningru> read through my conversation
[08:02] <poningru> I can just copy and paste my statements from above
[08:02] <adamant1988> I bet your "Physical conversations" are just as heavily biased.
[08:02] <adamant1988> If not more.
[08:02] <adamant1988> Have you bothered to watch any competitive adverts lately? 
[08:03] <poningru> explain
[08:03] <poningru> if you are telling me that these competitive advertz dont have any bias and present 'information'
[08:03] <poningru> but no go ahead
[08:04] <poningru> explain to me your marketing idea then dude
[08:04] <adamant1988> They present accurate information, just look at ANY Red Hat adverts. 
[08:04] <poningru> you present all the information and let the user decide?
[08:04] <adamant1988> poningru: You present the information in the appropriate format, just don't slant it. 
[08:05] <beuno> I have to agree with poningru, marketing isn't about presenting the information and letting the users decide, that only works for a small fraction of users
[08:05] <poningru> so you say things like 'linux doesnt have any desktop market share'
[08:05] <poningru> ??
[08:05] <adamant1988> poningru: Or you say "Linux has a rapidly growing market share"
[08:05] <adamant1988> Both are true.
[08:06] <poningru> adamant1988: EXACTLY
[08:06] <poningru> but thats slanting according to you
[08:06] <poningru> and should not be done
[08:06] <adamant1988> No, slanting is not presenting the other side at all.
[08:06] <poningru> WTF
[08:06] <poningru> you didnt present the other side there
[08:06] <poningru> you said it has a rapidly growing market share
[08:06] <poningru> didnt say anything about current market share
[08:07] <adamant1988> If I was going to make an advert out of that, I would show the growth
[08:07] <poningru> yes exactly
[08:07] <poningru> you emphasis the growth, and take attention away from the fact that right now it doesnt have any 
[08:08] <adamant1988> Ok, so I would show the growth, I would show a statistic in a form where it was readable/entertaining.   But you don't lie about the competitors. 
[08:08] <poningru> and I guess I can see how some people see this as 'slant' but thats what marketing is
[08:08] <adamant1988> "DRM is evil!"
[08:08] <adamant1988> Ok, DRM is NOT evil, and saying so is a blatant attempt to bias me.  
[08:08] <poningru> adamant1988: how is that false?
[08:09] <poningru> drm is evil
[08:09] <adamant1988> hardly, DRM is an anti-theft device on media to prevent unauthorized distribution according to the law.  The fact that we disagree does not make it evil, it CAN make it unethical though.
[08:09] <poningru> lol
[08:10] <adamant1988> I agree, DRM is unethical, but hardly Evil.
[08:10] <adamant1988> I don't think Satan himself has had a hand in it. 
[08:10] <poningru> evil == marketing speak for unethical
[08:10] <adamant1988> And *that* is what I'm talking about. 
[08:11] <poningru> brb
[08:12] <poningru> what is '*that*'?
[08:13] <poningru> sorry brb we have a person here to fix the dishwasher
[08:14] <adamant1988> Using a word substitute that warps what you're saying into a different beast.
[08:15] <adamant1988> "Unethical
[08:15] <adamant1988> Not ethical; not in accordance with the standards followed in a business or profession."
[08:16] <adamant1988> http://www.answers.com/Evil
[08:18] <adamant1988> The differences are pretty clear.  Of course obviously there is some overlap since you like the FSF and probably agree with RMS on most of his points.
[08:30] <poningru> no dude the difference is not that clear in an end user's view point
[08:30] <poningru> sorry the guy just left
[08:30] <poningru> anyway
[08:30] <adamant1988> Ask anyone what they associate with the word Evil, and I bet you you'll find the difference is even greater.
[08:31] <poningru> adamant1988: the entire point of marketing is to show your product as really good
[08:31] <poningru> without seeming ape-shit crazy
[08:31] <adamant1988> poningru: Then show your product as good without calling the otherone on things that aren't true.
[08:31] <poningru> clearly RMS does not fullfill this criterion
[08:31] <poningru> adamant1988: thats a given
[08:31] <adamant1988> "DRM is Evil" is blatantly opinionated.  "DRM is a violation of your consumer rights" is a much more true statement.
[08:32] <poningru> so you are saying you shouldnt have opinions in them?
[08:32] <poningru> lol
[08:32] <adamant1988> Well, opinionated was the wrong word I suppose. 
[08:32] <adamant1988> But I would keep opinions as far from it as possible.
[08:33] <adamant1988> But, I can understand why the FSF would utilize your services.
[08:38] <poningru> so what kinda things shouldnt be in advertz?
[08:38] <poningru> you already said slanting is ok
[08:38] <poningru> and opinions are allowed
[08:38] <poningru> so...
[08:38] <poningru> what isnt allowed?
[08:39] <poningru> blatantly lieing? we agree on that
[08:39] <adamant1988> I supposed the extremes of slanting and opinionated/biased advertisind?
[08:39] <poningru> any sort of lying is wrong
[08:39] <adamant1988> advertising*
[08:39] <poningru> so where do you draw the line? and why is your line the one that matters?
[08:40] <adamant1988> Calling something evil is a bit extreme, and probably not as effective as you would like it to be. 
[08:40] <poningru> actually dude its really effective I would say
[08:40] <poningru> you just have to do it without making yourself seem complete ape-shit crazy
[08:40] <adamant1988> poningru: Do a little study for yourself, tell 10 people that DRM is evil, and tell the other 10 that it's a violation of their consumer rights. 
[08:40] <adamant1988> I bet the latter is more effective. 
[08:41] <poningru> adamant1988: I would much rather tell them both
[08:41] <poningru> adamant1988: you honestly dont think nixternal here is gonna go and tell someone "DRM IS EVIL" and just walk away do you?
[08:41] <adamant1988> I avoid using such extremes, and I've had good success locally educating people about DRM.
[08:41] <nixternal> no, I am going to punch them in the face before I walk away :)
[08:42] <poningru> lol
[08:42] <beuno> finally some sense...
[08:42] <adamant1988> poningru: if your goal is to make them think DRM is evil, then you're going to keep pushing that idea.
[08:43] <adamant1988> By the time you're finished they'll think of the RIAA leadership as relatives of Hitler.
[08:43] <poningru> they will?
[08:43] <poningru> damn my skillz amaze even me
[08:43] <nixternal> RIAA is worse than Hitler
[08:43] <adamant1988> it was an example.  
[08:43] <poningru> I didnt know i had such awesome skillz
[08:43] <beuno> mainly because hitler is dead
[08:44] <nixternal> I tell people at church that DRM is the anti-christ and they need to stear clear of it. I am going to find a verse eventually in the Bible that will back that up :)
[08:44] <mindspin> sure you will
[08:44] <adamant1988> nixternal: Just add it in there somewhere, they'll never notice
[08:44] <beuno> wikibible!
[08:45] <adamant1988> I bet the only one who's actually really read the thing is the preacher.
[08:45] <nixternal> hehe
[08:45] <nixternal> dude, the Bible is copyrighted
[08:46] <nixternal> that is nuts
[08:46] <adamant1988> "And Jesus said unto his followers, do not download mp3s with DRM, for they are evil and unjust"
[08:46] <nixternal> no, Jesus said "don't download mp3's period!"
[08:46] <adamant1988> pfft I download Mp3s.
[08:46] <nixternal> purchase your music, rip it to ogg (vorbis, or whatever), and trade with thy neighbor
[08:47] <nixternal> I don't download music
[08:47] <adamant1988> Meh, all my friends use the standard.  I download classical all the time.
[08:47] <adamant1988> I use Classical when I'm writing and stuff, and it's obviously not protected by copyright anymore, so no DMCA violations for me
[08:48] <poningru> actually dude
[08:48] <poningru> the performances are copyrighted
[08:48] <crimsun> nixternal: don't you mean "translations are copyrighted"?
[08:48] <adamant1988> I really need to start getting my friends using vorbis. 
[08:48] <poningru> even though the sheet music isnt
[08:48] <nixternal> with Last.fm, I don't have to download anymore
[08:48] <nixternal> crimsun: yes :)
[08:48] <nixternal> but you know what I mean ;p
[08:49] <nixternal> man, this guy follows me everywhere
[08:49] <adamant1988> poningru: Hrmm, oh well, guess I need to stop using google to find the stuff :( 
[08:49] <nixternal> Google is the devil!
[08:49] <poningru> adamant1988: find british royal orchestra's performances
[08:49] <poningru> they are pd
[08:50] <nixternal> downloading mp3s, movies, office, xp, vista, or whatever, is the life of a MySpacetard
[08:50] <crimsun> nixternal's surfing myspace using ie7 on vista as we type
[08:50] <nixternal> I do not condone it, do not enjoy it, and actually when I hear someone at school talk about their MySpace friends like they are real, I beat them up ;p
[08:51] <nixternal> hahaha crimsun, I am waiting for someone to blog something like that :)
[08:51] <nixternal> crimsun: actually, imbrandon is such a Windows junky, he runs Kubuntu with a Vista theme and actually created the ever so popular Royal theme for KDE and KBFX or whatever it is called
[08:52] <nixternal> My KDE theme screams KDE. I jsut recently switched from Plastik to QtCurve, but kept the inverted look, and even use the default KDE colors, with a semi transparent kicker, and a picture of Cabo San Lucas as my wallpaper
[08:53] <adamant1988> nixternal: EEWWWW KDE USZR!!!
[08:53] <nixternal> hrmm
[08:53] <poningru> oh come on
[08:53] <poningru> those are fun
[08:54] <adamant1988> No, Vi vs Emacs arguments are better
[08:56] <nixternal> Kate FTW!
[08:56] <nixternal> I use emacs when running tty1-6, and I use Kate when I am in the GUI
[08:56] <beuno> Ninjas vs Pirates!
[08:57] <nixternal> that is what I just picked
[08:57] <nixternal> haha
[08:59] <beuno> it's hard not to
[10:27] <beuno> Burgwork: I've been a bit disconnected from UWN, but I'm getting it up to speed in the weekend, it's still going out sunday
[10:27] <Admiral_Chicago> beuno: won't be able to help with UWN, maybe tomorrow
[10:27] <beuno> Admiral_Chicago: tomorrow works too  :D
[10:27] <Admiral_Chicago> btw, congrats on memberstip
[10:27] <Admiral_Chicago> ship*
[10:28] <beuno> thanks!  and thanks for the support
[10:28] <Admiral_Chicago> np
[10:30] <Burgwork> beuno: sounds good
[10:30] <Burgwork> I have the whole weekend free, so I will work on it on Saturday
[10:30] <beuno> great, so we'll all be available
[10:31] <beuno> jenda has been working to get the UWN exposed on ubuntu's front page!