[12:15] <maxamillion> janimo: whoa ... you know my name
[12:16] <janimo> no, but the IRC info command is helpful
[12:16] <janimo> :)
[12:16] <maxamillion> ah
[12:16] <ajmitch> hey janimo
[12:16] <janimo> I have not been on IRC for a while so the nick was unfamiliar
[12:16] <janimo> ajmitch: hi
[12:16] <maxamillion> janimo: ah, ok
[12:17] <maxamillion> janimo: yeah, ever since cody went out of commission i run the meetings whenever i am able (pending my schedule) but it has been some time since I was able to or if there were enough people who showed up to even have a meeting
[12:18] <janimo> so not having much attendance, I'll touch in the items I have written in the wiki an hour ago
[12:18] <janimo> all relate to releasing Feisty
[12:18] <janimo> I think planning Feisty+1 can wait a bit until we have not released
[12:18] <janimo> they can go in parallel of course, but feisty is priority
[12:19] <maxamillion> janimo: yeah, it seems that most of the focus in the last week has been on feisty+1 in the mailing list
[12:19] <janimo> so the main areas that need work are bug triaging and ISO tests
[12:19] <janimo> the latter seems to be taken care of nicely by Jim
[12:19] <maxamillion> janimo: i unfortunately haven't had time to be much help in this release cycle because my semester of school has been extremely busy and my 2 jobs take up the rest of my time
[12:19] <janimo> maxamillion: are you involved with the ISO testing process?
[12:20] <maxamillion> janimo: i was in the beginning, but not since herd 4 (if i remember correctly)
[12:20] <janimo> maxamillion: np, we're all in the same situation, it's understandable
[12:22] <janimo> the other issue is triaging bugs which takes quite some time
[12:22] <janimo> lately the gnome devs have been helping out
[12:23] <janimo> but still we could be better organized
[12:23] <janimo> unfortunately we do not have many active triagers, not even occasional spikes of activity
[12:23] <maxamillion> janimo: another thing i plan to do when i start getting more spare time is askin crimsun to be my motu mentor because i think if we were able to get a couple motu people in there that are xubuntu members it might help the process and possibly take away from your work load
[12:23] <janimo> maxamillion: that would help with new apps for sure
[12:24] <janimo> maxamillion: but most xubuntu stuff is in main, so corre-dev status is needed for upload rights....
[12:24] <maxamillion> janimo: i check Thunar on launchpad from time to time but i haven't really seen much activity in the past 6-weeks (edgy branch)
[12:24] <maxamillion> janimo: ohhh, ok
[12:24] <janimo> maxamillion: edgy is frozen
[12:24] <maxamillion> janimo: i didn't even think about that
[12:24] <janimo> maxamillion: we work on feisty and only if it's very critucal do fixes in edgy
[12:24] <janimo> and it is usually someone else not me
[12:24] <maxamillion> janimo: i know, it has been for some ... does that mean bugs can't be reported?
[12:25] <janimo> maxamillion: they can be but chances are high they will not get fixed unless reproducable in feisty
[12:25] <janimo> we barely have resources for one line of development
[12:25] <janimo> yes, supporting previous releases would be nice but this is it
[12:25] <janimo> what is helpful at this stage that as many bugs get fixed before release
[12:26] <maxamillion> janimo: ah, fair enough ... i just remember the email you sent out a long time ago asking people to volunteer to cross reference launchpad bugs with xfce bugzilla and i volunteered for thunar
[12:26] <maxamillion> and other things of that nature
[12:26] <janimo> otherwise we'll get the reports after feisty is out and we'll be in the same situation, not being able to fix them beacause getting fixes in frozen versions is a lot more work
[12:26] <maxamillion> so i check Thunar on launchpad periodically
[12:26] <maxamillion> janimo: right right ... fair enough
[12:26] <maxamillion> janimo: we released beta1 right?
[12:27] <janimo> maxamillion: yes
[12:27] <janimo> maxamillion: besides linking to xfce bugzilla, trying to reproduce others' bugs is useful too
[12:27] <janimo> althoiugh more time consuming
[12:27] <maxamillion> janimo: ok, well i guess i can download that image today at work and try to find the time to install it on a spare machine around the office and just kinda run tests here and there and do some bug triaging
[12:28] <janimo> maxamillion: in general contributions relating to packaging and bugs are better done on the release we're working on :)
[12:28] <janimo> so the work has a chance of being useful :)
[12:28] <janimo> more useful I mean
[12:28] <maxamillion> janimo: right, http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/current/ <--that's the beta1 right?
[12:28] <janimo> that is the daily but pick that over beta
[12:28] <janimo> it's better to use the latest
[12:28] <maxamillion> hi j1mc
[12:29] <j1mc> hello all
[12:29] <janimo> hi Jim
[12:29] <j1mc> :)
[12:29] <j1mc> what have i missed?
[12:30] <j1mc> or, what are we talking about now?
[12:30] <maxamillion> janimo: ok, well then i will download that image right now and try to get it on a spare machine and do some triage on it if i get any time here at work .... i just don't have the spare hardware at home and can't afford downtime of my desktop at home because of school work
[12:30] <maxamillion> j1mc: just bug tracking and triage for feisty
[12:30] <maxamillion> j1mc: its just you, janimo and me here ... :/
[12:30] <j1mc> ok
[12:31] <janimo> maxamillion: fair enough, although you do not need a downtime
[12:31] <janimo> do a dist-upgrade and you're set
[12:31] <j1mc> janimo: what can the testing community do to help you?
[12:31] <janimo> j1mc: to help _us_ :)
[12:31] <maxamillion> janimo: well, not downtime but i can't really be worried about bugs when doing school work
[12:31] <janimo> well, keeping upu the work
[12:31] <j1mc> janimo: and do you have any other devs helping with with xubuntu?.
[12:32] <somerville32> tada!
[12:32] <j1mc> hi cody :)
[12:32] <maxamillion> somerville32: glad you could make it
[12:32] <maxamillion> somerville32: janimo is here :)
[12:32] <janimo> j1mc: Gauvain is helping too, we kind of shared the load during feisty
[12:32] <janimo> hi cody
[12:32] <somerville32> Nice to finally meet you Jani :)
[12:32] <janimo> j1mc: how active is the ISO testing team compared to the other derivatives?
[12:33] <janimo> somerville32: same here. I hope you're well
[12:33] <j1mc> i would say that we are maybe 60% of where they are.  getting better, though.
[12:33] <janimo> we've met though in earlier meeting IIRC
[12:33] <j1mc> we are now testing in the same ways as the other versions
[12:33] <janimo> j1mc: is everything done according to the process the other derivs follow?
[12:33] <j1mc> and i'm in regular contact with the other test leads.
[12:34] <janimo> I am not familiar with it, I just know it involves the wiki and LP
[12:34] <j1mc> janimo: yes.  that process is under revision, though.
[12:34] <j1mc> janimo: have you seen the test tracker on LP?
[12:34] <janimo> j1mc: did the alternate CD get tested in the shrt period that it got under 700M ?
[12:34] <j1mc> we just closed all of the beta bugs, but i'll let you know when we have new "bugs" back up.
[12:35] <janimo> j1mc: yes, I was subscribed to the xubnutu bgs, but they got cancelled and di not reattach to the new ones
[12:35] <j1mc> janimo: iirc, yes.  we were testing daily, if not more than that during the final crunch.
[12:35] <janimo> somerville32: we're discussing feisty plans, not feisty+1 as the former is more urgent
[12:36] <j1mc> ok, well, please keep me in mind during your testing periods, and let me know if there is anything in particular that you want tested extra well.
[12:36] <janimo> j1mc: do we have alist of particluar tasks users should test?
[12:36] <somerville32> janimo: Agreed. :)
[12:36] <janimo> for instance set up a printer, stick in a USB key?
[12:37] <janimo> j1mc: or are they mostly concerned with the install process?
[12:37] <j1mc> janimo: we have a short test, and a long test.  i think printing is on the long test.
[12:37] <janimo> got a link?
[12:37] <somerville32> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing I think
[12:37] <j1mc> yes, just a moment . . .
[12:37] <janimo> I may add some things which should be tested but were forgotten
[12:37] <janimo> specifically xubunt upatches to xfce which get a narrower covering
[12:38] <janimo> somerville32: thanks
[12:38] <j1mc> janimo: feel free to refine that test based on your needs.
[12:38] <j1mc> or "refine those tests"
[12:39] <janimo> maxamillion: does the website have pointers to the ISO testing process for beta and daily users?
[12:39] <maxamillion> has anyone checked their email and saw that script emailed from jell?
[12:39] <janimo> it would be helpful to have it prominently
[12:39] <somerville32> janimo: They are linked from the announcements, I believe.
[12:39] <maxamillion> janimo: i believe it does in the last herd announcement, let me double check
[12:39] <somerville32> maxamillion, I didn't look at the script but I saw the e-mail.
[12:40] <maxamillion> somerville32: yeah, apparently its intense .... i'm a little worried about running it on my personal machine
[12:40] <maxamillion> j1mc: i sorry
[12:40] <j1mc> hehe
[12:41] <j1mc> janimo: i'll send you an email with all of the necessary links and info.  it would be good to get your input, as this is being done to help the devs.
[12:42] <j1mc> well, being done to help all of us, :)  but . . .
[12:42] <j1mc> primarily to help the devs help make things better.  :)
[12:42] <somerville32> :D
[12:42] <janimo> j1mc: the long test is very close to the ubuntu one, I guess it could use some xfce specific info
[12:42] <janimo> j1mc: thanks :)
[12:42] <maxamillion> janimo: http://www.xubuntu.org/news/feisty_beta <---that is the page (pardon our horrible css, it will be fixed soon)
[12:43] <j1mc> yw!
[12:43] <somerville32> Awesome.
[12:43] <j1mc> one las thing.  the general test team isn't sure what we're going to do during the break between feisty and feisty +1.
[12:44] <j1mc> we will likely crawl under a rock.  that was the general concensus in #ubuntu-iso today.
[12:44] <maxamillion> j1mc: join in on the planning, throw out ideas for +1, specs, etc.
[12:44] <j1mc> that just means i'll be freed up to help in other areas.  :)
[12:44] <j1mc> maxamillion: yep.  :)

[12:44] <maxamillion> j1mc: or take a breather, feel free to kick back and drink some lemonade (or other beverage of choice)
[12:45] <j1mc> anything else for feisty?
[12:45] <j1mc> launch-related celebrations? announcements?
[12:45] <janimo> j1mc: the organizing skills gained and the team built for ISO testing can be reused for LP bug triaging :)
[12:46] <somerville32> Huzzah! :D
[12:46] <j1mc> janimo: that's what i think, too.  i don't want to overburden testers, but it seems like a natural progression.
[12:48] <maxamillion> janimo: how long after the release will we focus on bug triage for feisty before shifting over to +1?
[12:48] <j1mc> maxamillion: there will be no bugs in feisty after release.  ;-)
[12:48] <somerville32> haha
[12:49] <somerville32> Feisty bug triage will continue until it is retired. I believe we move right into the specification drafting phase once Feisty has been released.
[12:49] <maxamillion> j1mc: of course ... how horrible of me :P
[12:50] <nixternal> GO XUBUNTU! :)
[12:50] <somerville32> Weee!! :D
[12:50] <j1mc> nixternal!!
[12:50] <maxamillion> somerville32: agreed, but janimo was saying the once the package freeze happens its much harder to deal with fixing bugs
[12:50] <j1mc> later, nixternal . . .
[12:51] <somerville32> maxamillion, It is extra work but the package freeze isn't exactly lifted once the release occurs.
[12:51] <maxamillion> somerville32: no i kno
[12:51] <maxamillion> +W
[12:51] <janimo> maxamillion: bug triage will focus on feisty as sson as feisty opens
[12:52] <janimo> maxamillion: although in the first weeks after the release wee need ot watch feisty closely
[12:52] <janimo> in case some nasty bug appears
[12:52] <j1mc> like with the upgrade from dapper to edgy.
[12:52] <j1mc> ... or the upgrade-related problems :)
[12:53] <somerville32> hehe
[12:53] <maxamillion> i will start keeping an eye on launchpad soon and i think i will actually upgrade to feisty on my work machine starting right now as an upgrade install
[12:53] <janimo> somerville32: you could take care of SRUs for feisty :)
[12:53] <somerville32> lol
[12:53] <janimo> since you've done some for edgy and dapper
[12:53] <j1mc> SRU's?
[12:53] <maxamillion> janimo: its safe to upgrade to feisty from a stability stand point?
[12:53] <somerville32> Yes, I do believe that I'll be out of the hospital by then :)
[12:53] <janimo> maxamillion: it has been since it started - november :)
[12:54] <janimo> it may have been quirky but it is stable
[12:54] <somerville32> With certain periods that made it impossible to upgrade ;] 
[12:54] <j1mc> maxamillion: i had a good upgrade experience, and so did "vincent".
[12:54] <maxamillion> janimo: oh, didn't know that .... i probably could have just upgraded my work machine
[12:54] <janimo> that is the point of flights and betas to get peoiple to test :)
[12:54] <somerville32> Anyhows, I only have roughly 20 minutes of battery life left. :)
[12:55] <j1mc> what else do we need to discuss?
[12:55] <janimo> j1mc: I've added/removed a few items in the long list of tests
[12:55] <janimo> j1mc: nothing in particular
[12:55] <janimo> the bug traigers problem would be nice toi get solved
[12:55] <somerville32> janimo: Did you get a chance to read my list to the serve?
[12:55] <j1mc> ok, i'll take a look at the diff file-thing later tonight.
[12:55] <janimo> similar to the ISO test team
[12:55] <janimo> somerville32: I have skimmed it but have not read the whole thread yet
[12:56] <j1mc> janimo: i will talk with freddy about triage'ers.  he's good with that.
[12:56] <janimo> j1mc: ok, thanks
[12:56] <somerville32> Admiral_Chicago, Said he was going to volunteer to look after Marketing and consider his experience with the marketing team, I think it is safe to leave it in his hands.
[12:56] <somerville32> *considering
[12:56] <maxamillion> janimo: i know, but i only have 2 computers at my disposal at the moment ... my work machine and my home machine and i didn't want to risk either (i normally do my testing on spare machines at work, but its been really busy lately and i haven't had the time)
[12:57] <j1mc> since feisty release is coming up, what do we want to do for release-related stuff?
[12:58] <j1mc> could we have the website updated by then?
[12:58] <j1mc> to fit the new ubuntu theme?
[12:58] <maxamillion> janimo: why does a "sudo aptitude dist-upgrade" want to install apache?
[12:58] <somerville32> j1mc: I strongly doubt it.
[12:58] <maxamillion> j1mc: has ubuntu released the theme yet?
[12:58] <j1mc> somerville32: ok.  :)
[12:59] <j1mc> we are using the theme (largely unchanged) on our ubuntu-chicago loco.
[12:59] <janimo> j1mc: I agree with website update
[12:59] <j1mc> http://chi.ubuntu-us.org/
[12:59] <janimo> if we could make it a bit less crowded would help as well
[12:59] <somerville32> j1mc: Unfortunately I'd be required for that process as I'm the only one with shell access
[01:00] <maxamillion> j1mc: oh, so you have it? .... is there any way i could get my hands on that code?
[01:00] <somerville32> j1mc: However, you could speak with TheSheep
[01:00] <janimo> j1mc: nice ripoff ;)
[01:00] <maxamillion> somerville32: wait, it would require shell access?
[01:00] <maxamillion> somerville32: why so?
[01:00] <maxamillion> nixternal: thanks!!!!
[01:00] <somerville32> maxamillion, Yes. Uploading of the new theme.
[01:00] <janimo> maxamillion: no idea why apache is needed
[01:01] <maxamillion> janimo: hmmm.... well, i told it to go ahead, firestarter won't allow any connections even if i can't for some reason remove it later
[01:01] <somerville32> janimo, maxamillion, j1mc: If you can get the theme to TheSheep then I'm sure he could hack it into place for us in time for the release.
[01:01] <j1mc> somerville32: i will get in touch with TheSheep.
[01:02] <maxamillion> our meeting is over, anyone mind if we move to #xubuntu-devel and continue this convo?
[01:02] <somerville32> Our meeting is over?
[01:03] <maxamillion> somerville32: we get 1 hour in here right?
[01:03] <somerville32> 2
[01:03] <j1mc> we have until 23:59, 1 hour, 59 minutes.  :)
[01:03] <somerville32> (12 mins of battery left for me though)
[01:03] <j1mc> maxamillion: we're ok
[01:03] <j1mc> ok... must chat fast before cody's battery dies.
[01:03] <maxamillion> ohhhh ok
[01:03] <j1mc> maxamillion: hold off your upgrade.  :)
[01:03] <janimo> ok, bye everyone
[01:03] <maxamillion> j1mc: why?
[01:04] <j1mc> just joking . . .
[01:04] <somerville32> janimo: As for bug triage, I'll brainstorm
[01:04] <j1mc> i'm willing to help with docs for feisty+1
[01:04] <somerville32> What I'd quickly like to discuss (with you still here janimo)is the IRC situation.
[01:05] <j1mc> and will start helping to triage bugs, i've been meaning to do that anyway.
[01:05] <janimo> somerville32: yes?
[01:05] <j1mc> ok, go ahead, cody.
[01:05] <maxamillion> j1mc: you scared me ... i almost ctrl+c'd the upgrade
[01:05] <j1mc> maxamillion: sorry.
[01:05] <maxamillion> j1mc: lol, no worries ;)
[01:06] <somerville32> As I detailed in my e-mail, a couple of weeks before my hospitalization, there was conflict within the ubuntu-irc team,
[01:06] <TheSheep> hello :)
[01:06] <maxamillion> j0
[01:06] <j1mc> Hi TheSheep, PuMpErNiCkLe
[01:06] <j1mc> somerville32: go ahead.  :)
[01:06] <PuMpErNiCkLe> oy
[01:07] <somerville32> What I'd like to see changed is that the xubuntu namespace remain under xubuntu community control.
[01:07] <somerville32> This was the case before the conflict but long story short, I no longer am the contact for those channels.
[01:07] <j1mc> i don't know why it was wrested away, but i'm for xubuntu-community control, too.
[01:07] <somerville32> ie. I got the boot.
[01:07] <janimo> somerville32: as opposed to ? I am not familiar at all with the Ubuntu IRC channels and operation
[01:08] <somerville32> I'd like to see this issue resolved.
[01:08] <janimo> somerville32: what is the disadvantage of not being the contact anymore?
[01:08] <somerville32> The current settings can't be changed by us
[01:08] <somerville32> Only by Seveas
[01:08] <maxamillion> janimo: right now we don't actually have an official "contact" for our irc channels ... but it is still heavily op'd by xubuntu community members (myself, TheSheep and PuMpErNiCkLe being included in the list of ops)
[01:09] <somerville32> What happened was entirely inappropriate but thats not what I want to focus on
[01:09] <j1mc> somerville32: do you need our help?  if so, what can we do?
[01:10] <somerville32> Tough question.
[01:10] <maxamillion> somerville32: how did you pull off shell access to xubuntu.org btw?
[01:10] <PuMpErNiCkLe> What, particularly, is inappropriate about the way it is now?
[01:10] <somerville32> maxamillion, Magic
[01:11] <somerville32> PuMpErNiCkLe, The only issue is that the channel is not controlled by an  Xubuntu community member
[01:11] <j1mc> somerville32: maybe we can hash this out some more on xubuntu-devel?
[01:11] <maxamillion> somerville32: how not? ... TheSheep, PuMpErNiCkLe, and myself control it do we not?
[01:11] <j1mc> somerville32: ... i say that only bc your battery is dying
[01:12] <somerville32> janimo: If you'd like, I  can  send you an e-mail detailing the entire situation.
[01:12] <somerville32> I gotta run.
[01:12] <janimo> somerville32: It is more approproate for this to be resolved in the open
[01:13] <janimo> somerville32: I cannot do anything about it as I am not connected in any way with the IRC operators
[01:13] <j1mc> TheSheep: somerville32 suggested that i contact you about the website.
[01:13] <somerville32> A lot of it has to do with private e-mails to the CC.
[01:13] <maxamillion> j1mc: yeah, i have breifed him about it on jabber
[01:13] <janimo> somerville32: if it cannot be agreed upon by the involved parties it is a matter for the UBuntu Council, but it would be better to not get there..
[01:14] <somerville32> It is hard to articulate this issue with only a few seconds of battery left
[01:14] <somerville32> We can continue this at another time :)
[01:14] <j1mc> ok
[01:14] <TheSheep> j1mc: I can do the styles and graphics, and I can also make a matching theme for moin if we can do that, I just need to know how it is supposed to look exactly
[01:14] <maxamillion> i still don't understand how we don't control it now
[01:14] <maxamillion> it being the irc channels
[01:15] <somerville32> maxamillion, Ops are only level 10
[01:15] <maxamillion> somerville32: ooooh, we need a xubuntu community member at level 50 overseeing the chans?
[01:15] <j1mc> TheSheep: isn't it in drupal, though?
[01:15] <maxamillion> somerville32: ok, now i get it
[01:15] <somerville32> Lets talk about the Xubuntu Council idea. Janimo?
[01:16] <janimo> somerville32: I do not think we need a council at this point honestly
[01:16] <janimo> until we only have 4-5 constantly contributing members
[01:16] <TheSheep> j1mc: I don't care what it is -- if I have the samle html, I can make it look anyway I want using css and images
[01:16] <maxamillion> TheSheep: yes, it is but since the theme is already done for drupal and all we need is some color changes and such it would be easy, i think TheSheep would also like to make a matching theme for our wiki pages
[01:16] <somerville32> janimo: Aye.
[01:16] <janimo> somerville32: what would the Council do that currently is missing
[01:16] <somerville32> janimo: Direction
[01:16] <TheSheep> the wiki is a secondary thing and we can do it later
[01:16] <maxamillion> j1mc: ^^^^ that last one to TheSheep was towards you :P
[01:16] <somerville32> janimo: A lot of the time I know I feel like I'm trying to move around a room in the dark.
[01:17] <janimo> somerville32: why would the same people (us) collectively called Council get a direction if they cannot as separate individuals?
[01:17] <janimo> somerville32: so we need Direction not necessarily a Council
[01:18] <janimo> do you think a Council could have more influence on contributors?
[01:18] <somerville32> Possibly
[01:19] <janimo> the Ubuntu CC and TB are only called for when something unexpected needs to be decided upon
[01:19] <janimo> what we need is better organization
[01:19] <janimo> as an example the ISO testing team
[01:19] <somerville32> Ok
[01:20] <janimo> if we had a compeneten bug triaging team half of our problems would go away :)
[01:20] <somerville32> j1mc: You pull it off well then ;] 
[01:20] <janimo> j1mc: well at least it exists :)
[01:20] <j1mc> yeah . . .
[01:21] <somerville32> janimo: So you see it as a good thing to form more teams?
[01:21] <janimo> I do not think a council would help this particular problem of lack of direction
[01:21] <janimo> for instance out meetings too ahve more like a meta quality to them
[01:21] <janimo> since we do not have clear goals on the agenda
[01:21] <janimo> I think what we need is more people getting involved
[01:22] <janimo> and getting accross the message that we have a direction
[01:22] <j1mc> fwiw, i think that having a xubuntu testing team has been helpful.  it's something they see on their launchpad,
[01:22] <janimo> which at this point would be a lie
[01:22] <janimo> :)
[01:22] <j1mc> and they feel part of it, and a responsibility to help out.
[01:22] <somerville32> j1mc: I agree completely with you.
[01:22] <maxamillion> j1mc: how would i go about joining the testing team? ... that is something i plan to be a part of asap
[01:23] <janimo> maybe the community does not know where we need help
[01:23] <janimo> maybe from the outside itlooks like we have few bugs and people are on them
[01:23] <janimo> s there;s no place to contribute
[01:23] <somerville32> janimo: I think that if you made yourself more available on IRC then it would inspire people :)
[01:23] <janimo> we have to change that if it's so
[01:23] <janimo> because we badly need competent bug triagers
[01:23] <somerville32> I
[01:23] <somerville32> err..
[01:23] <j1mc> maxamillion: https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-testers
[01:24] <janimo> somerville32: possibly, but I sort of hope that at least some roles can be taken over by others
[01:24] <janimo> as I have much less time these days for ubunty, and so I prefer spending it on adding features :)
[01:25] <somerville32> Awesome.
[01:25] <j1mc> it sounds like a xubuntu bug triage team might be helpful.
[01:25] <maxamillion> j1mc: would i get notification of updates from joining it or should i wait to sign up until i am able to actually help?
[01:25] <somerville32> I'm really glade you could make it out Janimo.
[01:25] <somerville32> You've clarified a lot of stuff and I think that'll make moving forward a lot easier.
[01:25] <j1mc> maxamillion: no, you wouldn't get updates from joining.
[01:26] <janimo> somerville32: ok, I too think this was a helpful meeting
[01:26] <maxamillion> j1mc: well i joined anyways since i am upgrading to feisty and i will be able to help with bug triage on my work machine when i get down time around the office now anyways
[01:26] <janimo> yes, a nug team would be helpful
[01:27] <janimo> I know ubuntu have the BugSquad but am not familiar with their organization and processes
[01:27] <j1mc> nug team?  ;)
[01:27] <janimo> :)
[01:27] <Burgwork> the ubuntu bugsquad is for all dervis
[01:27] <maxamillion> janimo: i am a member, there really isn't any organization that i am aware of
[01:27] <somerville32> That it is
[01:28] <janimo> NUG: Non-utility generation (or generator)  -- synonymous with independent power.
[01:28] <janimo> the only definition I found on the web
[01:28] <janimo> sounds good
[01:28] <j1mc> freddy said that he could coordinate a bug triage coaching session.
[01:29] <janimo> Burgwork: ok, that we need xubuntu users join the bugsquad and learn its ways :)
[01:29] <j1mc> that might be a good way to get ppl involved before considering creating a new team.
[01:29] <janimo> j1mc: sure, I don ot think that creating teams in LP is a necessary step
[01:29] <maxamillion> j1mc: i would like to attend that, it would give me better bearings on what direction i should go in with bugs in general
[01:29] <janimo> it leads to the initial enthusiasm of being member of one more team but that wears off
[01:29] <j1mc> they could just join bugsquad (not sure on it's membership requirements), and focus on xubuntu (of their own free will).
[01:30] <j1mc> janimo: true . . .
[01:30] <janimo> rather have people organized so the work they do is so efficient that that is a satisfaction in itself
[01:30] <somerville32> We could have a "team" but not have an lp team
[01:30] <janimo> sure
[01:30] <somerville32> ie. just a wiki page that gives directions and what not
[01:30] <somerville32> It might have xfce4 specific info and what not
[01:31] <somerville32> I'm sure we can whip up good solutions and see exponential growth of our community during the next release cycle.
[01:31] <somerville32> Now, before my batter dies, any ideas, devel-wise, for feisty+1?
[01:32] <janimo> somerville32: nope, too early IMHO
[01:32] <janimo> I have none
[01:32] <maxamillion> janimo: did you read what i said about getting in contact with companies that are shipping xubuntu default in order to collaborate with them in the mailing list?
[01:32] <somerville32> janimo: Are you planning on going to the devel summit?
[01:32] <janimo> as usual get newest Xfce, get apps form Ubutnu if its possible to rid them of gnome deps
[01:32] <Admiral_Chicago> so i got the message that we need competent bug triager
[01:32] <janimo> somerville32: yes, I am going
[01:33] <Admiral_Chicago> I would like to help train them
[01:33] <j1mc> Admiral_Chicago FTW!
[01:33] <maxamillion> Admiral_Chicago: i'm a pupil
[01:33] <Admiral_Chicago> i have done a bit of teaching j1mc and other LoCo members
[01:33] <janimo> maxamillion: yes. I think companies can get in touch with us if they need anything, usually that;s how it works
[01:33] <janimo> their developers joining the list etc
[01:33] <j1mc> there goes cody's battery . . . :(
[01:33] <j1mc> hehe
[01:33] <Admiral_Chicago> working on a bug diary in the next week, so I can explain to others how that works
[01:34] <maxamillion> janimo: oh ok, but you don't think we should generally go out and try to be pro-actively in contact with them
[01:34] <janimo> maxamillion: unless we have some specific request to them I do not think so
[01:34] <Admiral_Chicago> maxamillion: will keep you in mind, i'll be mailing the list with a bug triage training session time soon
[01:34] <janimo> maxamillion: what do you think the contact should be about?
[01:34] <maxamillion> Admiral_Chicago: you planning on writing up a tutorial/documentation on bug triaging or will there be a session on irc i should be attending
[01:35] <Admiral_Chicago> both
[01:35] <maxamillion> Admiral_Chicago: oh ok, awesome ... i will keep a lookout for it
[01:35] <Admiral_Chicago> the tutorial is in progress, a little bit on my blog at planet.ubuntu.com (look for Freddy Martinez)
[01:35] <maxamillion> janimo: just let them know we are aware they are shipping xubuntu and appreciate it and ask if there are any suggestions they get from customers that they feel would better improve the distro
[01:36] <Admiral_Chicago> some has been "anyone want to do some bug work on IRC"
[01:36] <Admiral_Chicago> i'm going to make it a lot more formal though
[01:37] <j1mc> janimo: it sounds like effective bug triage would be most helpful to you at this time.  other than general lack of support, anything else in particular that you'd like to see in regards to bugs?
[01:37] <maxamillion> Admiral_Chicago: yeah, i mainly mentioned tutorial/documentation because that way you can type once, post ... maybe even write it and post a link in an email and say "read this and then come to the meeting for further discussion or if you have any questions" .... just a thought
[01:37] <Admiral_Chicago> anyways, here is what I am thinking about Marketing. I plan *in the future* of talking Xuuntu to a few papers that would carry it
[01:37] <Admiral_Chicago> right now, press releases, (New in Beta 2 for example) is what I want to focus on
[01:38] <Admiral_Chicago> maxamillion: that would be a good way to start
[01:38] <Burgwork> Admiral_Chicago: press releases are being handled by canonical
[01:38] <Burgwork> see my email ot the marketin list
[01:38] <maxamillion> Admiral_Chicago: i like the idea of talking to papers
[01:38] <janimo> maxamillion: I am sure companies that want to improve xubuntu wil get in touch or fix it themselves
[01:38] <janimo> honestly I do not think we need to be very poractive
[01:39] <maxamillion> janimo: fair enough
[01:39] <janimo> afetr all we annot find them all :)
[01:39] <janimo> j1mc: no, bug triage is #1 request
[01:39] <Admiral_Chicago> Burgwork: these pages http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/feistybeta ?
[01:39] <j1mc> janimo: understood.  :)  i've been meaning to do more of it, and will do my best.
[01:40] <janimo> j1mc: thanks :)
[01:40] <Admiral_Chicago> and the appropriate Kubuntu relase one?
[01:40] <janimo> even the occasional reqeust for more details from the original reporter helps
[01:40] <janimo> as sometime the release name is ommitted or the info is vague
[01:41] <janimo> other times linking andf filing to upstream bugzilla is desired, xfce mostly
[01:41] <Burgwork> Admiral_Chicago: see the mailing list post
[01:41] <Burgwork> it explains everything
[01:41] <janimo> ok, anything else?
[01:41] <janimo> 2:40 AM here :)
[01:41] <Admiral_Chicago> Burgwork: will do, gotta check that email then...
[01:41] <Admiral_Chicago> change of policy...okay thats fine
[01:42] <j1mc> janimo: thanks, that additional info helps.
[01:42] <j1mc> janimo: :)  thanks for being here.
[01:42] <j1mc> anything else for jani?
[01:42] <janimo> thanks all for coming, other specific things can be taken to the list
[01:43] <j1mc> ok.  thanks, all.  we're nearing our end time, anyway.
[01:44] <Admiral_Chicago> Burgwork: one last thing, how long ago was this, I subscribe to the marketing ML and don't see it
[01:45] <janimo> ok bye all
[01:45] <j1mc> bye janimo
[01:45] <maxamillion> bye janimo
[01:45] <j1mc> bye everyone.
[01:45] <Burgwork> Admiral_Chicago: it was titled with Chris Kenyon in the name
[01:45] <maxamillion> laters all!!!
[01:45] <Admiral_Chicago> ad i think i know the one you are talking about...hmm. okay searching
[02:42] <somerville32> Hi Hobbsee
[02:43] <Hobbsee> hi somerville32
[02:43] <somerville32> Long time no see
[03:20] <flubber> SEND #edubuntu hello
[04:27] <bimberi> @schedule canberra
[04:27] <ubotu> Schedule for Australia/Canberra: 30 Mar 07:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Apr 06:00: Marketing Team | 03 Apr 01:00: Community question time | 03 Apr 21:00: Community Council | 04 Apr 01:00: Kernel Team | 04 Apr 04:00: Mozilla Team
[12:35] <Riddell> ~
[12:36] <lotusleaf> 
[09:12] <kylem> @schedule Canada/Eastern
[09:12] <ubotu> Schedule for Canada/Eastern: 29 Mar 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 01 Apr 16:00: Marketing Team | 02 Apr 11:00: Community question time | 03 Apr 07:00: Community Council | 03 Apr 11:00: Kernel Team | 03 Apr 14:00: Mozilla Team
[09:14] <kwwii> sometimes I think UTC was created so that *nobody* knows what time it is :p
[09:16] <beuno> kwwii: foxclocks firefox extension saved my life
[09:16] <Mithrandir> but UTC is beautiful.
[09:18] <kwwii> beuno: thanks, I'll look into that
[09:19] <beuno> kwwii: np
[09:19] <Riddell>  /topic is wrong, meeting is in 40 mins
[09:23] <BFTD> oh?
[09:27] <Seveas> Riddell, then the fridge iCal feed is wrong
[09:27] <Seveas> @schedule
[09:27] <ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 29 Mar 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 01 Apr 20:00: Marketing Team | 02 Apr 15:00: Community question time | 03 Apr 11:00: Community Council | 03 Apr 15:00: Kernel Team | 03 Apr 18:00: Mozilla Team
[09:28] <Riddell> blame keybuk for not updating it then
[09:28] <gnomefreak> an hour off?
[09:28] <Seveas> heh
[09:28] <Riddell> it what changed due to summer time
[09:40] <Seveas> @topic
[09:40] <Seveas> nope, fridge wasn't updated
[09:47] <racarr> @schedule New_York
[09:47] <ubotu> Schedule for America/New_York: 29 Mar 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 01 Apr 16:00: Marketing Team | 02 Apr 11:00: Community question time | 03 Apr 07:00: Community Council | 03 Apr 11:00: Kernel Team | 03 Apr 14:00: Mozilla Team
[09:50] <pitti> bon soir
[09:50] <Keybuk> bon soir, a va?
[09:51] <mdz> good evening
[09:51] <mdz> cjwatson: ping
[09:53] <kwwii> evening everyone
[09:55] <Riddell> hi
[09:55] <dholbach> mvo might be 2-3 minutes late
[09:56] <dholbach> hi seb128
[09:57] <seb128> hey dholbach
[09:57] <bdmurray> hello
[09:57] <pkl_> hello
[09:59] <heno> hello
[10:00] <asac> hi
[10:00] <mdz> cjwatson,kylem,doko,rtg,tkamppeer: ping
[10:00] <Keybuk> mvo: ping
[10:00] <kylem> yo
[10:00] <rtg> lurking attentively.
[10:00] <dholbach> mdz: doko_ might be a little late too
[10:00] <Keybuk> (one might consider the futility of pinging someone who isn't online :p)
[10:00] <mdz> dholbach mentioned mvo might be late
[10:00] <pitti> Keybuk: summoning powers
[10:01] <cjwatson> here
[10:01] <cjwatson> doko said to me he would be late due to travelling, yes
[10:01] <mdz> cjwatson: and till?
[10:01] <tkamppeter> I am here
[10:01] <mdz> ok, that's everyone then
[10:02] <cjwatson> Ben also said he might be a little late due to needing to rescue his wife from traffic
[10:02] <mvo> hello, sorry for being late
[10:02] <mdz> cjwatson: BenC connected a few minutes ago
[10:02] <cjwatson> er, no, that's rescue his kids from the bus stop due to wife stuck in traffic - something coherent anyway :)
[10:02] <cjwatson> aha
[10:02] <BenC> I'm on, I just have to get the kids in a few minutes :)
[10:03] <mdz> any additions to the agenda since the reports came in?
[10:03] <bdmurray> I wanted to talk about n-m and /etc/network/interfaces
[10:03] <cjwatson> BenC: oh, I forgot about BST and misunderstood the times you gave
[10:03] <bdmurray> and upgrading from edgy to feisty
[10:03] <tkamppeter> Yes, I am searching volunteers for HPLIP 1.7.3 testing
[10:03] <mdz> bdmurray: is there a bug number for that?
[10:04] <mdz> bdmurray: please add to the wiki
[10:04] <bdmurray> mdz: newz2000 had a bug about it and I've seen others I believe
[10:04] <fabbione> bdmurray: ++
[10:04] <mdz> bdmurray: can you add tkamppeter's item as well?
[10:05] <mdz> ok
[10:05] <mdz> (pitti) "Report a bug" menu item -> disable for release?
[10:05] <pitti> my two questions are mainly directed towards the desktop team and cjwatson, since they have by far the most bug reports, I guess
[10:05] <seb128> I think we should stop the crash handler and let the menu item
[10:05] <cjwatson> pitti: I don't have a problem
[10:05] <dholbach> I'm personally happy with the menu item - we get useful information through it.
[10:06] <cjwatson> (as far as my own bugs are concerned)
[10:06] <mdz> I just posted something about this to the list a minute ago
[10:06] <pitti> My feeling is that we should stop reporting signal crashes, and maybe keep Python crashes
[10:06] <cjwatson> I'd much, much, much rather get apport bugs than "er, it crashed, I can't install Ubuntu, help"
[10:06] <pitti> dholbach: with the per-app one, or the general one in the System menu?
[10:06] <asac> personally i like to keep crash reports for firefox
[10:06] <seb128> pitti: you will make mvo cry, he gets lot of python dups
[10:06] <BFTD> agreed
[10:06] <pitti> cjwatson: right, that was my gut feeling too; but for the installer they seem to be more relevant to me than, let's say, gnome 2.18 crashes
[10:06] <dholbach> pitti: both
[10:07] <mvo> I have mixed feeling, its great to get backtrace, but I'm afraid about the flood
[10:07] <seb128> we will get flooded
[10:07] <pitti> for example, we get a lot of bugs without a package through the System menu
[10:07] <mdz> we estimate there are millions of Ubuntu users
[10:07] <seb128> GNOME bugzilla got over 500 dups on some bugs from bug-buddy and 90% were Ubuntu bugs
[10:07] <pitti> and we have to consider how many crashes we realistically fix in stables
[10:07] <cjwatson> I'll certainly get flooded, *but* I'm going to get flooded *anyway* if the installer is crashing
[10:07] <iwj> Can we make apport only work for certain apps, easily ?
[10:07] <mdz> if we have a crash which affects 1% of them, and 1% of those report it, that's hundreds of bugs
[10:08] <seb128> there were getting over 1000 edgy crashes a week
[10:08] <cjwatson> it's either get flooded with decent-quality bugs, or with poor-quality bugs
[10:08] <pitti> iwj: theoretically yes, but hard to decide; I'd prefer classes like sigsegv vs. python
[10:08] <seb128> cjwatson: well, crashes are special
[10:08] <seb128> cjwatson: if nautilus crash once a day due to a bug we will get hundred of people sending it
[10:08] <mdz> I think that leaving it enabled for crashes would be fine, if we could avoid filing duplicates for the same crash
[10:08] <pitti> seb128: how many apport and normal bugs do you get for edgy, roughly?
[10:09] <mdz> the existing guided filing doesn't seem to do a good enough job
[10:09] <pitti> keeping in mind that edgy's apport was much harder to use
[10:09] <Keybuk> mdz: "me too" is planned, but not implemented
[10:09] <seb128> pitti: hard to tell, most bugs we get now are already feisty
[10:09] <Keybuk> (I wouldn't hold out hope of seeing anything like that pre-1.0)
[10:09] <seb128> pitti: I would say 100 a week some time ago
[10:09] <iwj> "me too" would be really nice.  It would help with the false duplicates, too.
[10:09] <pitti> right, Malone needs to become much more insistive with identical subjects, etc.
[10:09] <pitti> but I don't bet on it for feisty
[10:09] <mdz> Keybuk: I think that's a different problem
[10:10] <seb128> we have no dup finding easy capability atm
[10:10] <cjwatson> pitti: of course, it will help even if it gets implemented after Feisty
[10:10] <seb128> malone search don't look in comments nor attachments
[10:10] <asac> if we really cannot deal with crash flood we should disable imo and set high priority to get a crash database for next stable release
[10:10] <cjwatson> changes in Malone, that is
[10:10] <bdmurray> mdz: I added the n-m thing but don't know about the till item
[10:10] <mdz> people who are filing duplicates are probably doing it because they either don't see the existing bug, or don't know that the right thing to do at that point is just stop
[10:10] <mdz> bdmurray: <tkamppeter> Yes, I am searching volunteers for HPLIP 1.7.3 testing
[10:10] <tkamppeter> See bug 98520
[10:10] <ubotu> Malone bug 98520 in hplip "Feisty UVF ER: New HPLIP 1.7.3 release fixes lots of bugs" [Medium,Needs info]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/98520
[10:10] <pitti> right, for feisty+1 we might have a more efficient retracer, automatic retracing, and automatic dup detection; we have none of them ATM
[10:10] <seb128> to be honest I prefer people filling duplicates
[10:11] <mdz> seb128: really? why?
[10:11] <tkamppeter> This is an UVF ER for HPLIP 1.7.3, as it fixes tons of bugs
[10:11] <seb128> on gaim we get people attaching their crashes to some random people pretty often
[10:11] <seb128> dunno why
[10:11] <bdmurray> mdz: done
[10:11] <seb128> but we have lot of bugs with 10 differents crashes attached there
[10:11] <cjwatson> seb128: agreed
[10:11] <seb128> because people came saying "I've the same bug, here is my crash"
[10:11] <mvo> seb128: yes, I get quite a lot of those as well
[10:11] <mdz> tkamppeter: ok, it is on the list and we can discuss it later in the agenda
[10:11] <pitti> seb128: NB that people won't manually attach apport reports any more
[10:11] <cjwatson> I have made the same comment many times in the past
[10:12] <tkamppeter> As we are shortly before release we need intensive testing on this.
[10:12] <seb128> I keep replying "when you don't know what you are doing open a new bug and let busquad direct you"
[10:12] <cjwatson> tkamppeter: later in the agenda, please
[10:12] <pitti> seb128: that was a specific problem of edgy's 'please attach me' apport, wasn't it?
[10:12] <tkamppeter> sorry, I thought mdz was calling me.
[10:12] <seb128> pitti: dunno
[10:12] <mdz> pitti: I think so
[10:13] <seb128> pitti: but I prefer people to open a dup than trying to figure themself if that's a dup
[10:13] <pitti> seb128: right, the goal is that Malone figures out whether it is a dup
[10:13] <seb128> they get it wrong often and that's really confusing
[10:13] <bdmurray> bughelper could help in the meantime with dupe detection right?
[10:13] <asac> seb128: ack ... i want every crash report in its own bug ... then retrace and mark dupes afterwards.
[10:13] <mdz> my feeling is that bug reports are not something that every user should deal with.
[10:13] <dholbach> if people submitted their clue files :)
[10:13] <bdmurray> dholbach: indeed
[10:14] <BFTD> can we have fontforge a requiarment to install WINE?
[10:14] <mdz> only users who are closer to the community and will participate in analysis should file bugs, generally
[10:14] <pitti> mdz: mpt had a strong point about the general 'I filed a bug, and noone answered' picture
[10:14] <iwj> I think I'm with mdz here.
[10:14] <seb128> bughelper is not good at dupfinding atm
[10:14] <pitti> therefore I agree with mdz
[10:14] <mdz> BFTD: the meeting agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20070329, we're on item 3
[10:14] <mvo> does bughelper scale well enough for this task?
[10:14] <BFTD> mdz sorry
[10:14] <dholbach> mvo: no
[10:14] <seb128> you can't look for a sequence of functions
[10:14] <seb128> mvo: no
[10:14] <iwj> People who don't have the effort/knowledge/connection to get involved should perhaps be using the support system.
[10:14] <seb128> looking for a string is no enough
[10:15] <mdz> if only a relatively small portion of users should file bugs, we shouldn't point every user to the bug tracker
[10:15] <cjwatson> (bughelper can be improved post-feisty)
[10:15] <mdz> we do want the crash reports, but until we have a better place to put them than Malone...
[10:15] <seb128> right
[10:15] <pitti> mdz: I don't even thing that Malone is a bad place for it; we just need better tools to deal with them
[10:15] <fernando> hey all
[10:15] <asac> yeah ... imo keep crashes out of BTS ... so disable until we have crash db
[10:16] <seb128> pitti: it's bad, too much noise
[10:16] <seb128> we should have a crash collector and something making easy to move confirmed crashes to a bug
[10:16] <asac> pitti: i think its a bad place as well
[10:16] <cjwatson> from the disagreement in the team, I think we may need some kind of per-package solution
[10:16] <seb128> so we don't even have to bother looking what to dup
[10:16] <pitti> and I think that in this cycle we were able to fix a lot of bugs in feisty with the current system; we should continue to do so in feisty+1 for feisty+1 instead of trying to fix crashes in stables
[10:16] <cjwatson> perhaps implemented something like the existing hooks mechanism
[10:17] <iwj> I don't know what the density of real crasher bugs in gnome is but I get a nonzero number of dpkg crash reports which are basically "my hardware is bust".
[10:17] <BFTD> or give the user the option to install/use the reporter in the installtion
[10:17] <seb128> the best for GNOME would be to turn on bug-buddy
[10:17] <pitti> seb128: ok; we have that spec already, so we need to talk about it again at UDS
[10:17] <Keybuk> iwj: that'd surprise me, since we'd get them for everything
[10:17] <seb128> but backtraces are screwed on feisty, we can't send bugs upstream
[10:17] <Keybuk> are you sure that they're not just deep dpkg bugs? :p
[10:17] <cjwatson> Keybuk: we do get them for ubiquity ...
[10:17] <heno> can we allow users to turn on apport manually if they see a recurring bug? that way we could ask for it from users we know will follow up etc. or ask it iof someone who has already filed
[10:17] <iwj> I investigate them and it turns out the machine had toasted filesystems.
[10:17] <Keybuk> I've never had them for upstart ;)
[10:17] <mdz> seb128: why would bug-buddy be better?
[10:18] <pitti> heno: yes, that's easy
[10:18] <cjwatson> but that's ok, I have Tollef's greasemonkey script to help me reject them in about five seconds
[10:18] <Keybuk> (I've never actually had a crash report at all for it)
[10:18] <pitti> heno: well, it would be with flipping /etc/default/apport
[10:18] <seb128> mdz: because bugzilla.gnome has more bug triager, they have a decent dup finder, they are used to it, and 98% of crashes are due to upstream
[10:18] <heno> pitti: so perhaps that should be our policy?
[10:18] <iwj> They're not common but then dpkg is not the biggest memory hog out there.  I just wonder how many other crashes there are that are due to slightly-dodgy machines.
[10:18] <pitti> so if we ask an user to switch that on, we can still get selected reports for feisty
[10:19] <mvo> iwj: I have seen quite a few in apt (well, some are real I suppose :)
[10:19] <heno> pitti: you mean selected in a good way or bad way (skewed sample)?
[10:19] <iwj> mvo: *snort*
[10:19] <pitti> heno: in a way to get quantities we can cope with, together with a commitment from the reporter to give feedback
[10:19] <mdz> heno: it would be great if we could find a way to turn it on only for responsive users
[10:20] <doko_> joining
[10:20] <iwj> `To qualify for this service, you must be at least >  < this competent.'
[10:20] <mdz> we want to be able to use it to assist bug reports which would otherwise take more time to process, without getting reports which are useless
[10:20] <heno> if we make it easy (which pitti says it is) we could request it in bug comments regularly
[10:20] <pitti> iwj: it could check your LP karma :)
[10:20] <heno> better than 'please upload /var/log/...
[10:21] <heno> well, if someone has already filed a bug without the system asking them too they are more involved than the average user
[10:22] <mdz> heno: right
[10:23] <mdz> hmm
[10:24] <pitti> hm, so am I right that the opinions lead towards keeping Python (for ubiquity & friends) and disabling signal crashes by default, with the possibility of enabling it again in /etc/default/apport?
[10:24] <mdz> pitti: I assume we can have it store the crash file, but not notify the user to submit it?
[10:24] <pitti> asac: you had two slightly different statements; what do you think about the firefox front?
[10:24] <mdz> pitti: if so, when a user files a bug, we could give them a command to run to submit the crash to the bug, right?
[10:24] <asac> i am unsure ... on the one hand I want to get feedback so i see if there are regressions for some users
[10:24] <heno> (I support turning it most off too -- have no opinion about python or other categories)
[10:24] <pitti> mdz: yes; that would require minor code changes, but no problem
[10:25] <asac> especially since we upload new upstream reports
[10:25] <mdz> pitti: that seems like the best of both worlds where crashes are concerned
[10:25] <cjwatson> pitti: we could also make it behave differently on the live CD
[10:25] <asac> otoh dealing with that flood of crashes is hard in malone
[10:25] <cjwatson> (by tweaking stuff in casper)
[10:25] <mdz> pitti: we wouldn't get the pre-filled summary...
[10:25] <cjwatson> for installer crashes I see no value in giving the user a command versus the notification icon
[10:26] <mdz> cjwatson: argeed
[10:26] <mdz> agreed
[10:26] <pitti> mdz: oh, I thought you meant something like 'run apport-gtk by hand' to collect and report pending stuff in /var/crash
[10:26] <mdz> I think the installer is a special case, though
[10:26] <mdz> because the crash reports are lost
[10:26] <cjwatson> it is, but I need it to be addressed :)
[10:26] <cjwatson> sorry to keep banging on about it
[10:26] <pitti> so we would mainly turn off the auto-spawning in update-notifier
[10:26] <mdz> cjwatson: do you want crash reports to remain on for the installer?
[10:26] <cjwatson> mdz: yes
[10:26] <mdz> cjwatson: I don't think anyone here would object to you receiving more reports on ubiquity if you want them
[10:26] <cjwatson> :-)
[10:26] <pitti> Python crash reports are really neat
[10:26] <mdz> let's put that to rest, then, shall we?
[10:27] <pitti> cheap in terms of bandwidth, and easily dup'able
[10:27] <mdz> crash reports for ubiquity in 7.04 - thumbs up
[10:27] <pitti> *idea*
[10:27] <seb128> well, there is the same flood with them
[10:27] <cjwatson> the remaining question is whether that be done for all python scripts, or just for the live CD
[10:27] <pitti> what about simply adding an option to update-notifier?
[10:27] <mdz> seb128: but it's an isolated flood for colin, and he wants it
[10:27] <mvo> pitti: a gconf key? easy enough
[10:27] <pitti> turn that off by default, and provide a moderately hidden switch to turn it on again?
[10:27] <seb128> mdz: I was speaking about python crashes in general, not only ubiquity
[10:27] <seb128> I think ubiquity is ok
[10:27] <mdz> seb128: ok
[10:28] <cjwatson> hence my suggestion of doing it in a package hook or similar
[10:28] <seb128> I've looked at all the unconfirmed apport bug in malone last week
[10:28] <seb128> and we have hundred of them already
[10:28] <cjwatson> look, we seem to be going round in circles, and we're 28 minutes in
[10:28] <pitti> cjwatson: casper could flip that gconf key for the live session, too
[10:28] <seb128> and a good bunch of them were python crashes
[10:28] <cjwatson> can we all agree to thrash this out on ubuntu-devel? :-)
[10:28] <seb128> ok
[10:28] <pitti> ACTION: pitti to summarize discussion in #u-devel and continue there
[10:28] <janimo> pitti: the python backtraces for system-config-printer were all very helpful FWIW
[10:28] <asac> maybe we can move things to mailing list instead of irc?
[10:28] <seb128> all the crash files are really useful
[10:28] <mdz> I think we should briefly discuss the menu item in the meeting, since that's a separate issue
[10:29] <pitti> so we covered my second TOP now
[10:29] <cjwatson> pitti: erm - mailing list rather than IRC?
[10:29] <cjwatson> or maybe IRC would work, dunno
[10:29] <pitti> cjwatson: erm, of course
[10:29] <seb128> the thing is that after some time you get the sames crash again and again and not a lot of new
[10:29] <seb128> and the noise increase
[10:30] <mdz> crash reports -> ubuntu-devel@
[10:30] <pitti> bdmurray: I take it you get a lot of bug reports without a package through the System 'report a bug' menu?
[10:30] <mdz> menu item -> here
[10:30] <mdz> bdmurray: yes, tell us about what you see as a result of that menu item
[10:30] <bdmurray> pitti: I'm not sure what would be the give away that it was from that menu item?
[10:30] <mdz> bdmurray: it should include a footer
[10:30] <pitti> bdmurray: the apport info in them
[10:30] <pitti> about Ubuntu version, uname, etc.
[10:31] <pitti> of course the user can select a package in malone, but many of them don't
[10:31] <pitti> and mpt raised the point that getting tons of unanswered bugs neither helps the reporters nor us
[10:31] <bdmurray> I haven't counted that much but don't think there are a lot and the Ubuntu version is helpful because people do forget that a lot.
[10:31] <mdz> especially since it's called "report a problem"
[10:31] <mdz> and users have many problems which aren't bugs
[10:32] <mdz> including problems which have nothing to do with Ubuntu
[10:32] <mdz> bear in mind that OEMs will preinstall Ubuntu in mass quantities
[10:32] <mdz> users who get Ubuntu and don't even know what it is could end up reporting this as a "problem" with their computer
[10:33] <pitti> I for myself get more and more 'unqualified' reports now, without any answer in many cases
[10:33] <pitti> the menu item in the application's help menu (lp-i) might be better, it already has the package and such, and more likely to get a proper description
[10:34] <seb128> right
[10:34] <mdz> pitti: and it can call package hooks
[10:34] <pitti> right
[10:34] <mdz> I propose that we disable the item in the System menu
[10:35] <bdmurray> and it is slightly more obscured too
[10:35] <mdz> does anyone feel that we'd be losing out on better bug reports by doing that?
[10:35] <bdmurray> so people would have to be looking for help
[10:35] <pitti> we should rather improve the Firefox start page or help center and have them point to wiki, etc.
[10:35] <pitti> and the more community-oriented people will find Launchpad just as well as they did so far
[10:36] <cjwatson> that would be a pretty small change to the Firefox start page, I think, and that's something OEMs can and probably (without proof) do customise
[10:36] <cjwatson> I'm with mdz here
[10:36] <seb128> mdz: the problem is that only a small set of app are patched for lpi
[10:36] <pitti> right, you cannot use it to report a postgres bug, but *shrug*
[10:37] <seb128> maybe moving the panel one to applications, accessories?
[10:37] <asac> btw, the firefox startpage does not ship in firefox package
[10:37] <seb128> or system, admin ;)
[10:37] <pitti> seb128: you hit me when I did that :)
[10:37] <mdz> seb128: are you getting useful bug reports from it?
[10:37] <cjwatson> asac: indeed, ubuntu-artwork et al
[10:37] <dholbach> ubuntu-docs
[10:38] <pitti> anyway, any strong opposition to the current proposal?
[10:38] <seb128> mdz: no, but the apps I'm working on are using lpi
[10:38] <mdz> seb128: we do have ubuntu-bug now, though it needs to be more widely advertised
[10:38] <seb128> fair enough
[10:38] <pitti> we even have a command-line apport frontend for servers now ;)
[10:39] <mdz> consensus to disable System->Report a problem, then?
[10:39] <seb128> I think having the command line command and lpi is good enough
[10:39] <mdz> pitti: oh, neat
[10:39] <seb128> +1
[10:39] <asac> +1
[10:39] <Mithrandir> mdz: yes, I think that makes sense.
[10:39] <pitti> +1
[10:39] <mdz> ok
[10:39] <bdmurray> mdz: I'm running a bughelper query for those bugs and a lot are showing up.  Ones report by that menu item that is.
[10:39] <kwwii> yippee! that fixes my one bu for me
[10:39] <pitti> ACTION: pitti to disable system apport menu entry
[10:39] <mdz> as I wrote on the mailing list, we should revisit it when we have better infrastructure in place for guiding the user, and handling the reports on the server side
[10:40] <bdmurray> but it would me more useful if they had an application in them rather than going "nowhere" per se
[10:40] <pitti> sorry for the long discussion, but I felt it is important to collect info
[10:40] <mdz> pitti: can you add this to the agenda for apport refinements at UDS?
[10:40] <pitti> mdz: definitively
[10:40] <mdz> (bdmurray) What is the best / most effective way to communicate bugs I think might be important? e-mailing the distro team?
[10:40] <mdz> pitti: thanks
[10:41] <pitti> mdz: 'that' -> bdmyrray's last comment, I take it?
[10:41] <cjwatson> we can always unmilestone if need be
[10:41] <Mithrandir> bdmurray: milestone + assign.
[10:41] <mdz> pitti: no, my last comment (and the corresponding post to -devel)
[10:42] <mdz> pitti: a discussion about generally how the user should report bugs, when, which tools, etc.
[10:42] <pitti> right
[10:42] <mdz> bdmurray: I see this as a release management function
[10:42] <pitti> bdmurray: more email--; bug assignment + IRC pings work fine for me, personally
[10:43] <bdmurray> IRC can be challenging with the time difference though
[10:43] <mdz> bdmurray: so if you feel a bug is important enough to be tracked separately, it should be escalated to Mithrandir
[10:43] <Mithrandir> bdmurray: we should ship you to Europe.
[10:43] <iwj> irc pings aren't always very reliable.
[10:43] <mvo> bdmurray: I like milestone + subscribe
[10:43] <bdmurray> indeed
[10:43] <pitti> bdmurray: but we already have bug email for the asynchronous discussions
[10:43] <Mithrandir> iwj: for others, it's much more reliable than anything else.
[10:43] <iwj> Mithrandir: That's scary to me.
[10:44] <cjwatson> the problem with IRC pings for anything that needs attention urgently is that if the problem is actually urgent then they can be quite disruptive
[10:44] <cjwatson> you need to stop what you're doing in case you forget
[10:44] <seb128> I like IRC pings
[10:44] <Mithrandir> iwj: why?  it feels like I'm subscribed to half of the packages in the archive; there's no way I'll never miss a thing there.  Pings show up in my session.
[10:45] <seb128> I set the milestone, bug settings, etc as required and switch back to what I was doing usually
[10:45] <iwj> Maybe your network/client/stuff is more reliable.  I find I occasionally miss them.
[10:45] <seb128> it's not too disruptive and I know about the bug then
[10:45] <seb128> iwj: well, if the other side doesn't reply I consider he didn't read it and try again later ;)
[10:45] <Keybuk> heh, I have to agree with IRC here
[10:45] <pitti> bdmurray: I think we recently got better bug mail headers, so that it should be possible to separate out the subscriptions from other people from the mass of bug mail from +packagebugs
[10:45] <Mithrandir> cjwatson: so it depends on the person.  I don't develop very much software any more, I spend a fair amount of my time talking to people on IRC doing release management.
[10:45] <Keybuk> I just about don't read bug mail anymore
[10:45] <iwj> seb128: Ah, IC.  That makes much more sense now :-).
[10:45] <Keybuk> since it takes longer to read it than it takes for more to arrive
[10:45] <mdz> seb128: are you needing a standard method which works for the entire team, or are you asking what to do with bugs where you don't already know who to talk to and how?
[10:45] <cjwatson> Keybuk++
[10:46] <Keybuk> I've been unsubscribing from things as much as I can, but haven't yet got it down to a level I can actually *keep up* with
[10:46] <Keybuk> (so if you've subscribed/assigned a bug to me ... I don't actually know about it yet <g>)
[10:46] <pitti> mdz: that was meant for bdmurray, I take it
[10:46] <mdz> pitti: er, yes
[10:46] <mdz> bdmurray: ^^ s/seb128/bdmurray/
[10:46] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: the fun starts when teams are subscribed to bugs, and they should be so you can't just unsub them.
[10:46] <bdmurray> mdz: more the latter
[10:46] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: this is part of my problem
[10:47] <mdz> ok, so let's not discuss personal preferences then
[10:47] <bdmurray> for example bug 95821 seems pretty important
[10:47] <ubotu> Malone bug 95821 in mysql-dfsg-5.0 "Replication failure with auto-increment and on duplicate key update" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/95821
[10:47] <mdz> the question is what to do about orphan bugs
[10:47] <bdmurray> but I have no idea where to go with it
[10:47] <iwj> I think we may need to hurry this along a bit ?
[10:47] <mdz> I've suggested that they go to the release team
[10:47] <pitti> bdmurray: that sounds like upstream is the single appropriate target
[10:47] <cjwatson> if there's nobody obvious to go to, then set the milestone and the RM can figure it out :-)
[10:48] <Mithrandir> bdmurray: as the rest of the people here says; if you're unsure, milestone it.  unmilestoning is easy.
[10:48] <mdz> Mithrandir: does that seem sensible to you?
[10:48] <seb128> milestone them and encourage people to look at the milestoned bug every now and then?
[10:48] <mdz> seb128: Mithrandir will do that regularly
[10:48] <seb128> or let RM find the people ;)
[10:48] <seb128> ok, works for me
[10:48] <bdmurray> sounds good
[10:48] <Mithrandir> I have said it before and I'll probably say it again: Please milestone bugs which you believe or think may be RC.  If you're unsure, ask me, or milestone anyway.
[10:48] <mdz> Mithrandir: maybe the QA docs should say something about this if they don't already
[10:49] <mdz> (bdmurray) bug 63365 and bug 76901
[10:49] <ubotu> Malone bug 63365 in xorg "[feisty]  xorg incorrectly detects "lv3:ralt_switch" option in xorg.conf (dup-of: 76901)" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/63365
[10:49] <ubotu> Malone bug 76901 in console-setup "right Alt key not recognized by default (lv3:ralt_switch shouldn't be set by default for US keyboard layouts)" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/76901
[10:49] <Mithrandir> mdz: I don't know if they do; I'll make sure they do.
[10:49] <bdmurray> mdz: that's not so important more just a reminder
[10:49] <Mithrandir> ACTION: tfheen to make sure QA/bug triage information includes information about when to milestone.
[10:49] <iwj> bdmurray: Err, so it doesn't need discussion here ?
[10:49] <cjwatson> indeed, the first is a dup of the second and the second is milestoned
[10:49] <bdmurray> iwj: no not really my mistake
[10:50] <cjwatson> no discussion here needed I think unless there's anything further on it
[10:50] <iwj> Fair enough.
[10:50] <Mithrandir> malone's handling of duplicates is slightly icky, but that's mostly my problem.
[10:50] <mdz> the right alt key on US keyboards is labeled "Alt" and should be equivalent to the left Alt key
[10:50] <iwj> I like quick agenda items.
[10:50] <mdz> it's assigned to cjwatson
[10:50] <mdz> done
[10:50] <mdz> (bdmurray) network-manager and /etc/network/interfaces when upgrading from edgy to feisty for example bug 96521
[10:50] <ubotu> Malone bug 96521 in network-manager "network manager won't let me connect to wifi" [Undecided,Rejected]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/96521
[10:50] <mdz> bdmurray: is this the same issue that SteveA brought up?
[10:51] <bdmurray> mdz: I'm not sure I saw thought.  But I believe n-m wasn't the default in Edgy. So people may have stuff configured in /etc/network/interfaces that confuses n-m.
[10:51] <mdz> SteveA pointed to https://beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/87941
[10:51] <bdmurray> after upgrading
[10:51] <ubotu> Malone bug 87941 in network-manager "network-manager does not take into account static configurations *properly* (dup-of: 82335)" [High,Confirmed] 
[10:51] <ubotu> Malone bug 82335 in network-manager "network-manager should not set offline mode when it manages no device" [High,Fix released] 
[10:51] <Mithrandir> bdmurray: s/confuses/makes NM ignore the interface/, yes.
[10:51] <mdz> I guess that's a different issue
[10:52] <fabbione> and n-m breaks ipv6
[10:52] <bdmurray> and does the upgrade process take this into account at all?
[10:52] <iwj> Is there something controversial here ?  (Still loading bugs pages over gprs ...)
[10:52] <mdz> bdmurray: I think we need to take this to ubuntu-devel
[10:52] <Mithrandir> fabbione: that's something I don't really worry or care about release-wise.
[10:53] <fabbione> Mithrandir: it's a regression from edgy so you do care..
[10:53] <Mithrandir> fabbione: no, I don't.  Just don't use NM if you're one of the ten people in the world using IPv6.
[10:53] <mdz> bdmurray: I think the short answer is that the UI should make it obvious when NM is ignoring the interface due to manual configuration, and allow the user to get quick access to the checkbox to set it back to automatic
[10:53] <fabbione> Mithrandir: i can't remove NM without removing ubuntu-desktop..
[10:53] <bdmurray> mdz: why is that? I'm trying to understand what is appropriate for the distro-team vs ubuntu-devel
[10:54] <Mithrandir> fabbione: you can disable it.
[10:54] <Mithrandir> mdz: yes, I'm going to tweak NM to do that.
[10:54] <cjwatson> bdmurray: distro-team => private
[10:54] <mdz> bdmurray: distro-team = Canonical, ubuntu-devel = Ubuntu developers
[10:54] <fabbione> Mithrandir: last time i asked you how to, you told me you couldn't..
[10:54] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: 10 is on the generous side
[10:54] <Mithrandir> fabbione: rm /etc/dbus/event.d/25NetworkManager
[10:54] <mdz> bdmurray: it's not that it's inappropriate for this meeting, it's that we only have 5 minutes left and can't discuss it in that time
[10:54] <bdmurray> mdz: okay, that's fair
[10:55] <Mithrandir> bdmurray: I'll be happy to discuss it further with you, I don't think it's important for the whole team?
[10:55] <mdz> ACTION: bdmurray to summarize network-manager/ifupdown issues on ubuntu-devel for further discussion
[10:55] <mdz> (cjwatson) Bug day on Friday: distro team participation
[10:55] <cjwatson> just a reminder to everyone, since last Friday was beta day
[10:56] <cjwatson> it's not actually been announced on u-d-a apparently - dholbach?
[10:56] <mdz> cjwatson: reminder to what?  join #ubuntu-bugs?
[10:56] <dholbach> I thought it was... bdmurray?
[10:56] <cjwatson> but anyway, distro team staff should make an effort to turn up on #ubuntu-bugs and be a bit more vocal about what you're doing to stimulate discussion and educate people
[10:56] <cjwatson> and generally help out
[10:57] <cjwatson> done
[10:57] <mdz> the community QA team seems to be growing and healthy
[10:57] <iwj> I could volunteer our poor tender bug helpers to help with bug 75681.
[10:57] <ubotu> Malone bug 75681 in mdadm "boot-time race condition initializing md" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/75681
[10:57] <iwj> (ducks)
[10:57] <mdz> I'm seeing good actions from new members
[10:57] <mdz> iwj: talking about problems like that during bug days will increase awareness of the problems and how to debug them
[10:57] <mdz> ok
[10:57] <cjwatson> iwj: you could certainly talk them through your thought processes trying to debug it, although they might run away :)
[10:57] <dholbach> cjwatson: apparently it was not announced, I'll whip something up
[10:57] <mdz> (tkamppeter) I am searching volunteers for HPLIP 1.7.3 testing
[10:57] <iwj> cjwatson: :-)
[10:58] <mdz> tkamppeter: my OfficeJet is in a shipping crate somewhere between here and London
[10:58] <tkamppeter> See bug 98520
[10:58] <ubotu> Malone bug 98520 in hplip "Feisty UVF ER: New HPLIP 1.7.3 release fixes lots of bugs" [Medium,Needs info]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/98520
[10:58] <Keybuk> my LaserJet doesn't appear to work with HPLIP
[10:58] <bdmurray> I have one here I can test
[10:58] <tkamppeter> HPLIP 1.7.3 has many fixes to bugs reported to us.
[10:59] <bdmurray> in my spare time
[10:59] <tkamppeter> As we are shortly before releasing, we need test reports from as many people as possible.
[10:59] <mdz> tkamppeter: send mail to ubuntu-devel-discuss
[10:59] <mdz> that's where you can reach people who are running feisty
[10:59] <doko> tkamppeter: 1.7.3 works for me, scanning included
[10:59] <mdz> adventurous sorts
[10:59] <mdz> Mithrandir: beta blockers?
[10:59] <mdz> (last week's actions)
[10:59] <tkamppeter> So please do the tests described in my 2nd and 3rd posting and post your results to the bug report.
[10:59] <cjwatson> if that's not done, it's irrelevant :P
[10:59] <mdz> bdmurray: wiki documentation cleanup?
[11:00] <Mithrandir> mdz: too many, but going down, slowly.  I have utterly forgot to send out the list, so I'll do that tomorrow.
[11:00] <cjwatson> unless s/beta/release/
[11:00] <tkamppeter> Thanks for your help.
[11:00] <mdz> cjwatson: yes, we still have blockers :-)
[11:00] <bdmurray> mdz: I slipped on that but am working on it actively now
[11:00] <mdz> ok
[11:00] <mdz> Mithrandir: please send that out tomorrow
[11:00] <mdz> any other VERY BRIEF business?
[11:00] <Mithrandir> mdz: will do.
[11:01] <mdz> adjourned
[11:01] <mdz> thanks, all
[11:01] <pitti> thanks everyone
[11:01] <asac> thanks
[11:01] <iwj> Goodnight and thank you.
[11:01] <bdmurray> thanks
[11:01] <mvo> thanks
[11:02] <BenC> good night everyone
[11:02] <kwwii> night all, thanks
[11:02] <seb128> thank you
[11:02] <pkl_> good night