[12:14] and roll [12:14] uhm...mostly roll though :-) [12:15] kwwii: I forgot to refer some stuff in the index.theme so the yes/no/apply icons does not show :-/ [12:15] fixed already btw [12:15] greets [12:16] heya troy_s [12:16] lapo: yeah, I noticed that [12:16] lapo: but you rock for responding so quickly [12:16] I was going to ping you tomorrow and ask if I should add it [12:16] kwwii: i was on that one already :-) [12:16] ;-) [12:16] ;-) [12:16] howdy troy_s [12:17] I noticed the bu just a pair of mintes after I fixed stuff up :-) [12:17] lol, that is how it usually works :-) [12:17] troy_s: did you hear about the team logo on LP? [12:18] kwwii: I'm on network manager icons, do you think we should include jimmac's icons in tango common? [12:18] lapo: yes, they are really nice, I think [12:19] kwwii you have the ability to update it too... [12:19] i have been sickly busy here. [12:19] 250 members almost [12:19] rather impressive [12:19] considering i believe the count was at literally 14 at the start of edgy. [12:19] kwwii: can you commit to tango-icon-theme-common? [12:19] troy_s: although I do not know how, I'll ask someone tomorrow and work that out (I did not know I could update that) [12:20] kwwii are you an admin on the group? [12:20] if not you should be. [12:20] i think you are... let me check [12:20] lapo: yes, I think so [12:20] troy_s: I just saw that you are admin and assumed only you could do it [12:20] i don't really want to step in at this point as you are 'the guy' so it is wise if we keep it accomplished through sanctioned hands. [12:20] i am owner yes. [12:21] I'll try to figure it out tomorrow....if I have no success I'll ping you about it [12:21] kinda late here now [12:21] kwwii: I have a nice good package with all the jimmac's nm icons, if you want to add them to tango common [12:21] just checking now [12:21] i have about 10 different things on the fly including a bloody feature so my time is horribly slight [12:22] wow [12:22] troy_s: I can understand that, I'll bug you again if it doesn't work out :-) [12:22] i like the icons on the new launchpad. [12:22] very good stuff... who did them? [12:22] lapo: cool, send 'em to me per mail or whatever [12:22] troy_s: they are tango icons [12:22] (troy_s: tango style :-)) [12:22] tango just stroke based? [12:23] they look a helluva lot better than tango does when just stroked. [12:23] the six big icons at hte top? [12:23] those are tango? [12:23] nope, those were done by a website design firm [12:23] ah the big ones, I don't particularly like those [12:23] WOW launchpad now interacts with cookies and your menus are [12:23] remembered. [12:23] "Brilliant Web Design" [12:23] kwwii those are slick as piss -- very contemporary in terms of minimalism. [12:23] is the name of the company [12:24] i am quite impressed with that site layout. [12:24] yeah, I thought so too [12:24] eheh...what a name :-) [12:24] it has soooooo much streamlined the [12:24] feel [12:24] and the look matches the simplicity so well. [12:24] yepp [12:24] it really is an improvement [12:24] yeah, the layout is quite sweet [12:24] slick as hell. [12:25] the colours are probably a few too many for my tastes on the icons, but on the whole bloody brilliant. [12:25] the only appoint I have it that they should have given more visibility to the arrows in the navigation bar [12:25] barelly noticiable [12:25] bah [12:25] most people have normal sight (86% approximately iirc) [12:26] seems like a reasonable design decision. [12:26] and the simple 2d design in the middle makes them discernable [12:26] i love it really [12:26] it is so simple [12:26] love in comparison to the last incarnation or the newer ubuntu site. [12:27] yeah minimalism as its best [12:27] wow [12:27] there is a place for visuals for each package [12:27] how slick is that? [12:27] now you know which one we intend to make money with :p [12:27] yeah, really cool [12:27] eheh [12:28] kwwii sorry for not checking earlier. [12:28] i probably should have confirmed that you were an admin [12:28] i think you are but let me look [12:28] troy_s: no big deal [12:29] nope you aren't... [12:29] let me fix that. [12:29] I think we all understand that a person can be very busy ;-) [12:30] some more than others... [12:30] i suppose it depends on your bloody career. [12:30] hehe, yeah [12:30] kwwii design issue... looking for how to bump you [12:30] hold on. [12:30] the biggest bug I have found until now is that the small team logos are 14x14 [12:31] I really wonder who in the hell thought up using 14x14 [12:31] it is like picking a random pixel size out of your butt [12:31] ok its cranking now [12:31] yeah 14 by 14 is ... gumma [12:31] 48x48 [12:31] seems reasonable. [12:32] well, if nothing else, at least 16x16...factor of two so scalable from bigger icons, and parts of existing 16x16 icons could be used [12:32] kwwii: uhm 22x22 come to mind :-) [12:32] 16x16 is bloody stink too. [12:33] wtf can you expect to communicate in less than 400 pixels? [12:33] focus groups come to mind... [12:33] lapo: yeah, I was just going to say that [12:33] eheh [12:33] lapo: as involved as I am in kde, I still get in arguments about the 22x22 icons [12:34] kwwii: do you know why 22x22 was choosen in the beginning? [12:34] because the idiot who made the decision was working on a 640x480 monitor with magnifying glasses? [12:34] lapo: yes, it was decided by tackat (torsten rahn, the guy who made the first hicolor icons) [12:35] but why not 24x24? [12:35] at the time he had a good reason (ask him and he'll go into an explanation for an hour) [12:35] maybe he was designing for modex -- 320x240 [12:35] but in the meantime it is silly [12:35] meantime? lol [12:35] where is moore's law when it comes to technological advancement? [12:36] even disposable razor blades appear to follow moore's law lol [12:36] hehe...good one [12:36] believe that 2 lines of pixels make a lot of difference, I happen to draw some gtk-stock icon (24x24) and he canvas felt huge respect what I'm used to (22x22 as in tango) :-) [12:37] kwwii so any news coming down the pipe? [12:37] troy_s: nothing much in the last days [12:37] seems the "he who is in charge" is quite busy [12:38] "he who's name shall not be spoken" [12:38] eheh [12:38] *exactly* [12:38] yes he is busy, but does he have any directionality for feis+1? [12:38] or is it going to be 'lets muddle the tan again' [12:38] ugh [12:38] nope, I have spoken to several people about starting the planning sometime next week [12:39] canonical players? [12:39] dude, if I am still involved in this we are starting next week and working on a real system this time [12:39] lol [12:39] "he's who's name shall not be spoken" should listen to his artistic dictator 'cause probably his divine eye is not very artistic [12:40] I hope/think that things will start to go in the right direction soon [12:40] he has no artistic director and i, once again, strongly suggest that no one of any credit would take that position with the micromanaging hell. [12:40] the folks with the credits simply won't stand for it. [12:40] true [12:41] kwwii that reminds me [12:41] any flow on media center? [12:41] but if we start to bang our heads against the right wall, perhaps we can slowly break it down [12:41] the icon is naff as piss for launchpad [12:41] troy_s: not too much yet [12:41] just noticed it. [12:41] now you know why I mentioned it :-) [12:41] lol [12:41] lol [12:41] I mean, we are supposed to be the art team :-) [12:41] I don't care who wwill be the artistic dictator, I just hope that to have sometone with an artistical eye to fight with [12:41] :-) [12:41] kwwii it was bersace [12:42] and quite frankly, at the time, no one was doing anything so i figured it was at least [12:42] a good idea to support those that had the courage to do _anything_ [12:42] lapo well that's subjective as hell... it is going to be a damn tough position to fill. [12:42] troy_s: definitely [12:43] bersace has been a great help for a non-artist [12:43] kwwii although at peak, we had some very talented folks poke out of the woodwork [12:43] hell... i was shocked at some of the works. [12:44] troy_s: sure, tastes apart at least one who can notice if something is a good work or a bad one at least tecnically speaking [12:44] I really miss Who [12:44] troy_s: which is not the case for Him [12:44] Who, Mikkel, etc. [12:44] VERY good work. [12:45] I have been working with frank on a few things and that boy is darn bright too. [12:45] There are a _lot_ of solid creators out there. [12:45] the trick is harnessing the power, and that is where the value of worldwide design could shine. [12:45] frank is really good at scoping out new territory [12:46] Frank is bloody brilliant really. [12:47] The guy has a wonderful collection of greymatter in his skull. [12:47] and he has done a great deal of research [12:47] which is completely useful. [12:47] very true [12:48] who is damn gifted too... i suppose that is why he is becoming an engineer at one of the most prestigious institutions in the world. [12:49] still has some pretty damn good insights into things though, when i find the time to email him. lol. [12:49] What I would like to see is the ability of the new crop of folks who have since signed up for the team... [12:49] hehe, I got my degree from Washington University but never learned a thing about artwork there :p [12:49] troy_s: yeah, me too [12:49] I think 90% are hangers-on [12:49] considering the visibility, 249 people probably represents perhaps 3% of the possible interests. [12:50] kwwii I have a little more faith than that... [12:50] which is good too, but doesn't necessarily help the real artwork [12:50] I think people join up to be able to give their opinions [12:50] kwwii I think plenty of them are capable if not perhaps in execution, perhaps in conception. [12:50] that might be the case as well [12:50] well again, you are faced with people who might not want to help the 'real' artwork. [12:50] like talented folks such as coz_ etc. [12:51] Let's face it, the current design pattern isn't even a grade 7 art test such as 'arrange these five pennies on the page into something that communicates 'chaos'' [12:51] have you seen any of coz's work kwwii ? [12:51] troy_s: nope [12:52] but I remember his nick [12:52] i know he is trained, but i don't know whether or not it is a diploma or a formal degree... [12:52] quite a skilled painter [12:52] (and of course outspoken as I would expect any artist to be.) [12:53] hehe, yeah [12:53] kwwii by the way, you are now admin [12:53] kwwii so work over the hackergotchi [12:53] troy_s: cool, I will see what I can do tomorrow [12:54] time for sleep here [12:54] my son has two weeks vacation from school so my days are very busy [12:54] aight [12:54] get some rest [12:54] working and babysitting [12:54] erm [12:54] before you go [12:54] did you manage to summon anyone to the summit in artwork land? [12:54] i hope you managed to pull that off. [12:55] it would be nice to see a few people gaining some traction [12:56] not this time around, I didn't know what was happening until it was too late [12:56] Well that stinks [12:56] I was kinda pissed that we didn't get the chance [12:56] did sabdfl extend any offerings to anyone? [12:56] nope [12:56] I am pretty sure he would try ... [12:56] not that I know of [12:56] Hrm... [12:56] perhaps I am wrong though [12:56] Well that's too bad. [12:56] Another indication as to priorities. [12:56] he has been very busy and I have had little contact in the last few weeks [12:57] You would think that a guy who has the world by the balls would have a little more innovation in his soul. [12:57] I plan on having a long talk at the summit about this thouch [12:57] though [12:57] I think he is simply too busy [12:57] I mean, let's face reality here -- the guy is damn brilliant and completely independent at this point in his life. [12:58] blasphemy! :-) [12:58] He could _so_ stick a boot up Apple and MS's ass. [12:58] blasphemy? [12:58] well, he made his money on tech work, not art work...probably trying to follow that recipe [12:59] I mean, let's face reality here -- the guy is damn brilliant and completely independent at this point in his life. [12:59] kwwii Yes but he is _damn_ smart, _damn_ independent... [12:59] definitely [12:59] lapo -- you disagree with either of those two statements? [12:59] again, I think he simply needs someone to trust in this matter [12:59] troy_s: nope, check the smiley at the end [12:59] anyway...I am passing out [12:59] ah [12:59] sorry [12:59] see you all tomorrow [01:00] np, just kidding [01:01] is that the general communty (at least ubuntu's) adoration for mark sometime bugs me [01:02] he probably doesn't apraciate it as well [01:02] lapo -- a bright guy shouldn't appreciate the idolatry -- I agree however, that it is largely useless. [01:03] lapo -- that said, even though I completely disagree with his design direction and perhaps his underlying aesthetic [01:03] lapo -- I think he is a damn brilliant guy and way ahead of his time regarding Free Software. [01:03] yeah, that's for sure [01:03] further still, he has put his money where his mouth is and, like it or not, [01:03] really put Free Software into the mainstream [01:04] yeah that's true as well [01:04] where the true stars such as yourself, andreasn, jimmac, etc can have their work seen. [01:04] And _that_ is a positive step in the right direction. [01:04] Hell... linux isn't the end all... [01:04] Free Software is. [01:04] I'm not really a star [01:04] Given the chance to innovate, it might be nice to see what everyone can do. [01:04] Erm... [01:04] Let me rephrase then [01:05] "One of the teeny little cogs in the great big machine." ;) [01:05] yeah, really really tiny tho :-) [01:05] Lol [01:05] In the end, it is rather reflective of the world I suppose... [01:06] Just another faceless idiot on the landscape of six billion. [01:06] ;) [01:06] anyway he his a genius, and the community adoration is even positive, but nobody seems to want to et in contrast with him [01:06] his opinions are law usually [01:06] No, and I fundamentally disagree with that. [01:06] I actually completely respect the fact that his thoughts are law. [01:06] And in the end, that is probably largely why Ubuntu has been so damn successful. [01:07] So I completely respect that approach and I can appreciate his 'covetry' of his 'baby' [01:07] That said, we, as parents, must all let our children grow up at some point. This generally requires them to dress themselves :) [01:07] lol [01:08] I would also suggest that the community is to blame in this regard, as the formal frameworks have yet to be implemented for art and design. [01:08] Code developed cvs, svn, etc. Where are our parallels for group artistic design development? [01:08] don't misunderstand me, I believe there's the need of somebody who make decisions (see debian), but in the field he doesn't know he should left the decisions to others, you know art for example :-) [01:08] etc. [01:08] yeah, it's mostly a community fault, not his [01:09] lapo: I think that takes time and trust. Worse, I think that when you are discussing design, you must _clearly_ consider your audience... something Ubuntu refuses to do as it is taboo. [01:09] yeah, very true [01:09] As soon as you say that you are trying to communicate with XXX or YYY you immediately 'exclude' ZZZ and that is distasteful. [01:09] That said, the unwritten rules of design are also speaking mammoth quantities to those 'mainstream' types who understand the language that commercial design has laid out. [01:10] For example, the rather uncommunicative nature of Ubuntu in its current nature won't do much to 'draw' in people to the thinking. [01:10] Apple's design speaks, which is why it is successful. [01:10] So does say, McDonalds [01:10] Nike. [01:10] Etc. [01:10] yeah, that's really the point [01:10] All _standout_ design speaks through its implementation. [01:11] We in Free Software are perhaps either A) completely not used to thinking this way or more likely B) worried that it will exclude someone. [01:11] In reality, all things do. [01:11] You are colour blind aren't you Lapo? [01:11] but ubuntu says it's want to be easy for end users so it really want (at least) to have an audience [01:11] That is a fallacy [01:11] troy_s: deutheranope I believe [01:11] Completely and utterly [01:12] It is like saying 'I would like to say 'hello' to the entire world' [01:12] It is a Utopian fallacy. [01:12] Lapo -- how many instances of very good accoladed design have you been exposed to that don't 'work' for you with your sight issues? [01:12] See my point? [01:12] yeah sure [01:13] I completelly agree with you [01:13] It's simply a utopian fallacy to try and please everyone. [01:13] And we all know the old addages about that. [01:13] Not to mention that of the say, 100 or so art / design reference works that line my shelf, the most consistent underlying 'do this' instruction in _every_ one, is "figure out your audience" [01:14] I would love to see Ubuntu have a beautiful presentation that works for say, someone who uses a strictly touch based visual system (whatever the hell that would be -- ideas?) [01:14] And the only way we are going to get there is to perhaps suggest that everyone's needs are going to be different. [01:14] yeah, but what I'm saying is that ubuntu has it's audience, but the choices made are not in that direction sometimes [01:15] _A_B_S_O_ lutely [01:15] 'cause as you are saying it want to be generalized [01:15] And yet it seeks to be populart [01:15] erm [01:15] but that's a fault of design by community [01:15] popular [01:15] You think so? [01:15] I can state beyond a shadow of a doubt that Ubuntu's design woes [01:15] because everybody can have his voice heard and everybody has a different opinion [01:15] have _nothing_ to do with community [01:15] Yes. [01:16] But let's try a little mental exercise... [01:16] If you and I were going to sit down and attempt to say [01:16] design a user interface for someone with your visual sense [01:16] you know you have to deal with a community and you have to maintain it alive, you cannot make huge parts of it unhappy or it won't work [01:16] We would probably have to have a pretty distinct set of design critera, yes? [01:16] and small vocal group can influence the community a lot [01:16] completely agree [01:16] squeeky wheels [01:16] :) [01:17] eheh [01:17] In our case though, it is largely a lack of knowledge and fear. [01:17] but that's how it works in oss most of the time [01:17] Yes. [01:17] you start nicelly and you end up debian :-) [01:17] And probably why the Free Software art and design field isn't exactly being picked ripely for artistic talent every day :) [01:17] I think democracy doesn't work for implementation of design [01:17] but again, if we say [01:18] had a clear set of design critera -- [01:18] yeah [01:18] such as designing for people with complete colour blindness for example [01:18] we have already alleviated 99% of the democracy [01:18] I think we had a discussion in dapper time about it and you were thinking the opposite, some time in the oss world make you change your mainf eh :-)) [01:18] 'this does not work as the palette is busted for our audience' [01:18] yeah, sure [01:19] lapo: No, I think I still largely believe that the Free Software community _SHOULD_ be able to achieve art and design that is far superior to the close house mentality. [01:19] troy_s: yeah with strong and widelly accepted guidelines [01:19] That said, I completely disagree with not having a well developed audience [01:19] etc. [01:19] troy_s: and this is way I'm all for tango :-) [01:19] accepted or not -- guidelines. :) [01:19] well even tango's err on the side of loose [01:19] troy_s: not accepted = no community :-) [01:20] but yes, one could attribute some of its success to guidelines [01:20] look at the sixteen gigs of osx or vista design guidelines [01:20] ;) [01:20] designer's bibles are commonplace _everywhere_ [01:20] troy_s: sure, but if you have picky bastards sitting on the official repo (read me and jimmac for example) it will work :-) [01:20] the problem in foss is that either you decide to 'include everyone' or suffer at the hands of appearing as some sort of brutal dictator who doesn't care. [01:21] i agree... [01:21] troy_s: maybe [01:21] it would be nice if more of you buggers would document your experiences and such [01:21] ;) [01:21] the paper trails are so critical to moving forwards -- building on successes and failures etc. [01:21] troy_s: my english is too lousy to document something :-) [01:22] for example [01:22] Shuttle has avoided 'human body parts' thanks to the earlier debacle with the photos [01:22] Rather like shooting the baby out with the bathwater. [01:22] As opposed to looking to execution, the entire realm got thrown out. [01:22] Which is very much too bad. [01:22] (from an artwork / design standpoint) === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [01:23] true [01:23] I liked the photos tho :-) [01:23] exactly [01:23] _exactly_ [01:24] i was discussing with who that the wallpapers from warty and hoary [01:24] are about 1000000 times better than what we have had since [01:24] yeah [01:24] (a little mystical element -- magical? - etc.) [01:24] i think that really works well for Ubuntu -- communicate that mystical / magical connotation [01:24] etc. [01:24] artistically speaking warty was a lot better then all the reast imho [01:24] Now we have erred into what could be summarized as a bloody gradient. [01:25] With about as much communication as a middle grey wall. [01:25] lapo: Completely agree. [01:25] they at least 'spoke' [01:25] yeah [01:25] it communicated something [01:25] the rest in my picky eyes messy [01:25] Hell... people who cite apple seem to fail to notice all of the 'behind the scenes' design brainstorming they are doing. [01:25] yeah [01:26] usaility and design first always [01:26] the rest have progressively learnt to communicate nothing because that yields the least amount of 'that sucks' [01:26] not realizing that the 'that sucks' also tends to generate people who 'I LOVE IT' [01:26] generate SOME feeling [01:26] troy_s: and people who cite apple usually refers to osx while os8 for example was a better user experience (crashes apart :-)) [01:26] not completely 'meh' [01:27] very true [01:27] lapo: The one thing that I will say for Apple (not a fan here) is that their designers are damn well trained, damn well educated, and damn well astute to contemporary design OUTSIDE of bloody computing. [01:27] and _that_ is the sole feature that keeps them on edge. [01:27] yeah [01:27] they don't look to what vista is doing... nor open source... etc... they look to all the other areas of contemporary art and design. [01:27] as should _any_ decent artist / designer. [01:27]