[12:14] <lapo> and roll
[12:14] <lapo> uhm...mostly roll though :-)
[12:15] <lapo> kwwii: I forgot to refer some stuff in the index.theme so the yes/no/apply icons does not show :-/
[12:15] <lapo> fixed already btw
[12:15] <troy_s> greets
[12:16] <lapo> heya troy_s
[12:16] <kwwii> lapo: yeah, I noticed that
[12:16] <kwwii> lapo: but you rock for responding so quickly
[12:16] <kwwii> I was going to ping you tomorrow and ask if I should add it
[12:16] <lapo> kwwii: i was on that one already :-)
[12:16] <kwwii> ;-)
[12:16] <kwwii> ;-)
[12:16] <kwwii> howdy troy_s
[12:17] <lapo> I noticed the bu just a pair of mintes after I fixed stuff up :-)
[12:17] <kwwii> lol, that is how it usually works :-)
[12:17] <kwwii> troy_s: did you hear about the team logo on LP?
[12:18] <lapo> kwwii: I'm on network manager icons, do you think we should include jimmac's icons in tango common?
[12:18] <kwwii> lapo: yes, they are really nice, I think
[12:19] <troy_s> kwwii you have the ability to update it too...
[12:19] <troy_s> i have been sickly busy here.
[12:19] <troy_s> 250 members almost
[12:19] <troy_s> rather impressive
[12:19] <troy_s> considering i believe the count was at literally 14 at the start of edgy.
[12:19] <lapo> kwwii: can you commit to tango-icon-theme-common?
[12:19] <kwwii> troy_s: although I do not know how, I'll ask someone tomorrow and work that out (I did not know I could update that)
[12:20] <troy_s> kwwii are you an admin on the group?
[12:20] <troy_s> if not you should be.
[12:20] <troy_s> i think you are... let me check
[12:20] <kwwii> lapo: yes, I think so
[12:20] <kwwii> troy_s: I just saw that you are admin and assumed only you could do it
[12:20] <troy_s> i don't really want to step in at this point as you are 'the guy' so it is wise if we keep it accomplished through sanctioned hands.
[12:20] <troy_s> i am owner yes.
[12:21] <kwwii> I'll try to figure it out tomorrow....if I have no success I'll ping you about it
[12:21] <kwwii> kinda late here now
[12:21] <lapo> kwwii: I have a nice good package with all the jimmac's nm icons, if you want to add them to tango common
[12:21] <troy_s> just checking now
[12:21] <troy_s> i have about 10 different things on the fly including a bloody feature so my time is horribly slight
[12:22] <troy_s> wow
[12:22] <kwwii> troy_s: I can understand that, I'll bug you again if it doesn't work out :-)
[12:22] <troy_s> i like the icons on the new launchpad.
[12:22] <troy_s> very good stuff... who did them?
[12:22] <kwwii> lapo: cool, send 'em to me per mail or whatever
[12:22] <kwwii> troy_s: they are tango icons
[12:22] <lapo> (troy_s: tango style :-))
[12:22] <troy_s> tango just stroke based?
[12:23] <troy_s> they look a helluva lot better than tango does when just stroked.
[12:23] <troy_s> the six big icons at hte top?
[12:23] <troy_s> those are tango?
[12:23] <kwwii> nope, those were done by a website design firm
[12:23] <lapo> ah the big ones, I don't particularly like those
[12:23] <troy_s> WOW launchpad now interacts with cookies and your menus are
[12:23] <troy_s> remembered.
[12:23] <kwwii> "Brilliant Web Design"
[12:23] <troy_s> kwwii those are slick as piss -- very contemporary in terms of minimalism.
[12:23] <kwwii> is the name of the company
[12:24] <troy_s> i am quite impressed with that site layout.
[12:24] <kwwii> yeah, I thought so too
[12:24] <lapo> eheh...what a name :-)
[12:24] <troy_s> it has soooooo much streamlined the
[12:24] <troy_s> feel
[12:24] <troy_s> and the look matches the simplicity so well.
[12:24] <kwwii> yepp
[12:24] <kwwii> it really is an improvement
[12:24] <lapo> yeah, the layout is quite sweet
[12:24] <troy_s> slick as hell.
[12:25] <troy_s> the colours are probably a few too many for my tastes on the icons, but on the whole bloody brilliant.
[12:25] <lapo> the only appoint I have it that they should have given more visibility to the arrows in the navigation bar
[12:25] <lapo> barelly noticiable
[12:25] <troy_s> bah
[12:25] <troy_s> most people have normal sight (86% approximately iirc)
[12:26] <troy_s> seems like a reasonable design decision.
[12:26] <kwwii> and the simple 2d design in the middle makes them discernable
[12:26] <troy_s> i love it really
[12:26] <troy_s> it is so simple
[12:26] <troy_s> love in comparison to the last incarnation or the newer ubuntu site.
[12:27] <lapo> yeah minimalism as its best
[12:27] <troy_s> wow
[12:27] <troy_s> there is a place for visuals for each package
[12:27] <troy_s> how slick is that?
[12:27] <kwwii> now you know which one we intend to make money with :p
[12:27] <lapo> yeah, really cool
[12:27] <lapo> eheh
[12:28] <troy_s> kwwii sorry for not checking earlier.
[12:28] <troy_s> i probably should have confirmed that you were an admin
[12:28] <troy_s> i think you are but let me look
[12:28] <kwwii> troy_s: no big deal
[12:29] <troy_s> nope you aren't...
[12:29] <troy_s> let me fix that.
[12:29] <kwwii> I think we all understand that a person can be very busy ;-)
[12:30] <troy_s> some more than others...
[12:30] <troy_s> i suppose it depends on your bloody career.
[12:30] <kwwii> hehe, yeah
[12:30] <troy_s> kwwii design issue... looking for how to bump you
[12:30] <troy_s> hold on.
[12:30] <kwwii> the biggest bug I have found until now is that the small team logos are 14x14
[12:31] <kwwii> I really wonder who in the hell thought up using 14x14
[12:31] <kwwii> it is like picking a random pixel size out of your butt
[12:31] <troy_s> ok its cranking now
[12:31] <troy_s> yeah 14 by 14 is ... gumma
[12:31] <troy_s> 48x48
[12:31] <troy_s> seems reasonable.
[12:32] <kwwii> well, if nothing else, at least 16x16...factor of two so scalable from bigger icons, and parts of existing 16x16 icons could be used
[12:32] <lapo> kwwii: uhm 22x22 come to mind :-)
[12:32] <troy_s> 16x16 is bloody stink too.
[12:33] <troy_s> wtf can you expect to communicate in less than 400 pixels?
[12:33] <troy_s> focus groups come to mind...
[12:33] <kwwii> lapo: yeah, I was just going to say that
[12:33] <lapo> eheh
[12:33] <kwwii> lapo: as involved as I am in kde, I still get in arguments about the 22x22 icons
[12:34] <lapo> kwwii: do you know why 22x22 was choosen in the beginning?
[12:34] <troy_s> because the idiot who made the decision was working on a 640x480 monitor with magnifying glasses?
[12:34] <kwwii> lapo: yes, it was decided by tackat (torsten rahn, the guy who made the first hicolor icons)
[12:35] <lapo> but why not 24x24?
[12:35] <kwwii> at the time he had a good reason (ask him and he'll go into an explanation for an hour)
[12:35] <troy_s> maybe he was designing for modex -- 320x240
[12:35] <kwwii> but in the meantime it is silly
[12:35] <troy_s> meantime?  lol
[12:35] <troy_s> where is moore's law when it comes to technological advancement?
[12:36] <troy_s> even disposable razor blades appear to follow moore's law lol
[12:36] <kwwii> hehe...good one
[12:36] <lapo> believe that 2 lines of pixels make a lot of difference, I happen to draw some gtk-stock icon (24x24) and he canvas felt huge respect what I'm used to (22x22 as in tango) :-)
[12:37] <troy_s> kwwii so any news coming down the pipe?
[12:37] <kwwii> troy_s: nothing much in the last days
[12:37] <kwwii> seems the "he who is in charge" is quite busy
[12:38] <troy_s> "he who's name shall not be spoken"
[12:38] <lapo> eheh
[12:38] <kwwii> *exactly*
[12:38] <troy_s> yes he is busy, but does he have any directionality for feis+1?
[12:38] <troy_s> or is it going to be 'lets muddle the tan again'
[12:38] <lapo> ugh
[12:38] <kwwii> nope, I have spoken to several people about starting the planning sometime next week
[12:39] <troy_s> canonical players?
[12:39] <kwwii> dude, if I am still involved in this we are starting next week and working on a real system this time
[12:39] <troy_s> lol
[12:39] <lapo> "he's who's name shall not be spoken" should listen to his artistic dictator 'cause probably his divine eye is not very artistic
[12:40] <kwwii> I hope/think that things will start to go in the right direction soon
[12:40] <troy_s> he has no artistic director and i, once again, strongly suggest that no one of any credit would take that position with the micromanaging hell.
[12:40] <troy_s> the folks with the credits simply won't stand for it.
[12:40] <kwwii> true
[12:41] <troy_s> kwwii that reminds me
[12:41] <troy_s> any flow on media center?
[12:41] <kwwii> but if we start to bang our heads against the right wall, perhaps we can slowly break it down
[12:41] <troy_s> the icon is naff as piss for launchpad
[12:41] <kwwii> troy_s: not too much yet
[12:41] <troy_s> just noticed it.
[12:41] <kwwii> now you know why I mentioned it :-)
[12:41] <troy_s> lol
[12:41] <troy_s> lol
[12:41] <kwwii> I mean, we are supposed to be the art team :-)
[12:41] <lapo> I don't care who wwill be the artistic dictator, I just hope that to have sometone with an artistical eye to fight with
[12:41] <lapo> :-)
[12:41] <troy_s> kwwii it was bersace
[12:42] <troy_s> and quite frankly, at the time, no one was doing anything so i figured it was at least
[12:42] <troy_s> a good idea to support those that had the courage to do _anything_
[12:42] <troy_s> lapo well that's subjective as hell... it is going to be a damn tough position to fill.
[12:42] <kwwii> troy_s: definitely
[12:43] <kwwii> bersace has been a great help for a non-artist
[12:43] <troy_s> kwwii although at peak, we had some very talented folks poke out of the woodwork
[12:43] <troy_s> hell... i was shocked at some of the works.
[12:44] <lapo> troy_s: sure, tastes apart at least one who can notice if something is a good work or a bad one at least tecnically speaking
[12:44] <kwwii> I really miss Who
[12:44] <lapo> troy_s: which is not the case for Him
[12:44] <troy_s> Who, Mikkel, etc.
[12:44] <troy_s> VERY good work.
[12:45] <troy_s> I have been working with frank on a few things and that boy is darn bright too.
[12:45] <troy_s> There are a _lot_ of solid creators out there.
[12:45] <troy_s> the trick is harnessing the power, and that is where the value of worldwide design could shine.
[12:45] <kwwii> frank is really good at scoping out new territory
[12:46] <troy_s> Frank is bloody brilliant really.
[12:47] <troy_s> The guy has a wonderful collection of greymatter in his skull.
[12:47] <troy_s> and he has done a great deal of research
[12:47] <troy_s> which is completely useful.
[12:47] <kwwii>  very true
[12:48] <troy_s> who is damn gifted too... i suppose that is why he is becoming an engineer at one of the most prestigious institutions in the world.
[12:49] <troy_s> still has some pretty damn good insights into things though, when i find the time to email him. lol.
[12:49] <troy_s> What I would like to see is the ability of the new crop of folks who have since signed up for the team...
[12:49] <kwwii> hehe, I got my degree from Washington University but never learned a thing about artwork there :p
[12:49] <kwwii> troy_s: yeah, me too
[12:49] <kwwii> I think 90% are hangers-on
[12:49] <troy_s> considering the visibility, 249 people probably represents perhaps 3% of the possible interests.
[12:50] <troy_s> kwwii I have a little more faith than that...
[12:50] <kwwii> which is good too, but doesn't necessarily help the real artwork
[12:50] <kwwii> I think people join up to be able to give their opinions
[12:50] <troy_s> kwwii I think plenty of them are capable if not perhaps in execution, perhaps in conception.
[12:50] <kwwii> that might be the case as well
[12:50] <troy_s> well again, you are faced with people who might not want to help the 'real' artwork.
[12:50] <troy_s> like talented folks such as coz_ etc.
[12:51] <troy_s> Let's face it, the current design pattern isn't even a grade 7 art test such as 'arrange these five pennies on the page into something that communicates 'chaos''
[12:51] <troy_s> have you seen any of coz's work kwwii ?
[12:51] <kwwii> troy_s: nope
[12:52] <kwwii> but I remember his nick
[12:52] <troy_s> i know he is trained, but i don't know whether or not it is a diploma or a formal degree...
[12:52] <troy_s> quite a skilled painter
[12:52] <troy_s> (and of course outspoken as I would expect any artist to be.)
[12:53] <kwwii> hehe, yeah
[12:53] <troy_s> kwwii by the way, you are now admin
[12:53] <troy_s> kwwii so work over the hackergotchi
[12:53] <kwwii> troy_s: cool, I will see what I can do tomorrow
[12:54] <kwwii> time for sleep here
[12:54] <kwwii> my son has two weeks vacation from school so my days are very busy
[12:54] <troy_s> aight
[12:54] <troy_s> get some rest
[12:54] <kwwii> working and babysitting
[12:54] <troy_s> erm
[12:54] <troy_s> before you go
[12:54] <troy_s> did you manage to summon anyone to the summit in artwork land?
[12:54] <troy_s> i hope you managed to pull that off.
[12:55] <troy_s> it would be nice to see a few people gaining some traction
[12:56] <kwwii> not this time around, I didn't know what was happening until it was too late
[12:56] <troy_s> Well that stinks
[12:56] <kwwii> I was kinda pissed that we didn't get the chance
[12:56] <troy_s> did sabdfl extend any offerings to anyone?
[12:56] <kwwii> nope
[12:56] <troy_s> I am pretty sure he would try ...
[12:56] <kwwii> not that I know of
[12:56] <troy_s> Hrm...
[12:56] <kwwii> perhaps I am wrong though
[12:56] <troy_s> Well that's too bad.
[12:56] <troy_s> Another indication as to priorities.
[12:56] <kwwii> he has been very busy and I have had little contact in the last few weeks
[12:57] <troy_s> You would think that a guy who has the world by the balls would have a little more innovation in his soul.
[12:57] <kwwii> I plan on having a long talk at the summit about this thouch
[12:57] <kwwii> though
[12:57] <kwwii> I think he is simply too busy
[12:57] <troy_s> I mean, let's face reality here -- the guy is damn brilliant and completely independent at this point in his life.
[12:58] <lapo> blasphemy! :-)
[12:58] <troy_s> He could _so_ stick a boot up Apple and MS's ass.
[12:58] <troy_s> blasphemy?
[12:58] <kwwii> well, he made his money on tech work, not art work...probably trying to follow that recipe
 I mean, let's face reality here -- the guy is damn brilliant and completely independent at this point in his life.
[12:59] <troy_s> kwwii Yes but he is _damn_ smart, _damn_ independent...
[12:59] <kwwii> definitely
[12:59] <troy_s> lapo -- you disagree with either of those two statements?
[12:59] <kwwii> again, I think he simply needs someone to trust in this matter
[12:59] <lapo> troy_s: nope, check the smiley at the end
[12:59] <kwwii> anyway...I am passing out
[12:59] <troy_s> ah
[12:59] <troy_s> sorry
[12:59] <kwwii> see you all tomorrow
[01:00] <lapo> np, just kidding
[01:01] <lapo> is that the general communty (at least ubuntu's) adoration for mark sometime bugs me
[01:02] <lapo> he probably doesn't apraciate it as well
[01:02] <troy_s> lapo -- a bright guy shouldn't appreciate the idolatry -- I agree however, that it is largely useless.
[01:03] <troy_s> lapo -- that said, even though I completely disagree with his design direction and perhaps his underlying aesthetic
[01:03] <troy_s> lapo -- I think he is a damn brilliant guy and way ahead of his time regarding Free Software.
[01:03] <lapo> yeah, that's for sure
[01:03] <troy_s> further still, he has put his money where his mouth is and, like it or not,
[01:03] <troy_s> really put Free Software into the mainstream
[01:04] <lapo> yeah that's true as well
[01:04] <troy_s> where the true stars such as yourself, andreasn, jimmac, etc can have their work seen.
[01:04] <troy_s> And _that_ is a positive step in the right direction.
[01:04] <troy_s> Hell... linux isn't the end all...
[01:04] <troy_s> Free Software is.
[01:04] <lapo> I'm not really a star
[01:04] <troy_s> Given the chance to innovate, it might be nice to see what everyone can do.
[01:04] <troy_s> Erm...
[01:04] <troy_s> Let me rephrase then
[01:05] <troy_s> "One of the teeny little cogs in the great big machine." ;)
[01:05] <lapo> yeah, really really tiny tho :-)
[01:05] <troy_s> Lol
[01:05] <troy_s> In the end, it is rather reflective of the world I suppose...
[01:06] <troy_s> Just another faceless idiot on the landscape of six billion.
[01:06] <troy_s> ;)
[01:06] <lapo> anyway he his a genius, and the community adoration is even positive, but nobody seems to want to et in contrast with him
[01:06] <lapo> his opinions are law usually
[01:06] <troy_s> No, and I fundamentally disagree with that.
[01:06] <troy_s> I actually completely respect the fact that his thoughts are law.
[01:06] <troy_s> And in the end, that is probably largely why Ubuntu has been so damn successful.
[01:07] <troy_s> So I completely respect that approach and I can appreciate his 'covetry' of his 'baby'
[01:07] <troy_s> That said, we, as parents, must all let our children grow up at some point.  This generally requires them to dress themselves :)
[01:07] <troy_s> lol
[01:08] <troy_s> I would also suggest that the community is to blame in this regard, as the formal frameworks have yet to be implemented for art and design.
[01:08] <troy_s> Code developed cvs, svn, etc.  Where are our parallels for group artistic design development?
[01:08] <lapo> don't misunderstand me, I believe there's the need of somebody who make decisions (see debian), but in the field he doesn't know he should left the decisions to others, you know art for example :-)
[01:08] <troy_s> etc.
[01:08] <lapo> yeah, it's mostly a community fault, not his
[01:09] <troy_s> lapo: I think that takes time and trust.  Worse, I think that when you are discussing design, you must _clearly_ consider your audience... something Ubuntu refuses to do as it is taboo.
[01:09] <lapo> yeah, very true
[01:09] <troy_s> As soon as you say that you are trying to communicate with XXX or YYY you immediately 'exclude' ZZZ and that is distasteful.
[01:09] <troy_s> That said, the unwritten rules of design are also speaking mammoth quantities to those 'mainstream' types who understand the language that commercial design has laid out.
[01:10] <troy_s> For example, the rather uncommunicative nature of Ubuntu in its current nature won't do much to 'draw' in people to the thinking.
[01:10] <troy_s> Apple's design speaks, which is why it is successful.
[01:10] <troy_s> So does say, McDonalds
[01:10] <troy_s> Nike.
[01:10] <troy_s> Etc.
[01:10] <lapo> yeah, that's really the point
[01:10] <troy_s> All _standout_ design speaks through its implementation.
[01:11] <troy_s> We in Free Software are perhaps either A) completely not used to thinking this way or more likely B) worried that it will exclude someone.
[01:11] <troy_s> In reality, all things do.
[01:11] <troy_s> You are colour blind aren't you Lapo?
[01:11] <lapo> but ubuntu says it's want to be easy for end users so it really want (at least) to have an audience
[01:11] <troy_s> That is a fallacy
[01:11] <lapo> troy_s: deutheranope I believe
[01:11] <troy_s> Completely and utterly
[01:12] <troy_s> It is like saying 'I would like to say 'hello' to the entire world'
[01:12] <troy_s> It is a Utopian fallacy.
[01:12] <troy_s> Lapo -- how many instances of very good accoladed design have you been exposed to that don't 'work' for you with your sight issues?
[01:12] <troy_s> See my point?
[01:12] <lapo> yeah sure
[01:13] <lapo> I completelly agree with you
[01:13] <troy_s> It's simply a utopian fallacy to try and please everyone.
[01:13] <troy_s> And we all know the old addages about that.
[01:13] <troy_s> Not to mention that of the say, 100 or so art / design reference works that line my shelf, the most consistent underlying 'do this' instruction in _every_ one, is "figure out your audience"
[01:14] <troy_s> I would love to see Ubuntu have a beautiful presentation that works for say, someone who uses a strictly touch based visual system (whatever the hell that would be -- ideas?)
[01:14] <troy_s> And the only way we are going to get there is to perhaps suggest that everyone's needs are going to be different.
[01:14] <lapo> yeah, but what I'm saying is that ubuntu has it's audience, but the choices made are not in that direction sometimes
[01:15] <troy_s> _A_B_S_O_ lutely
[01:15] <lapo> 'cause as you are saying it want to be generalized
[01:15] <troy_s> And yet it seeks to be populart
[01:15] <troy_s> erm
[01:15] <lapo> but that's a fault of design by community
[01:15] <troy_s> popular
[01:15] <troy_s> You think so?
[01:15] <troy_s> I can state beyond a shadow of a doubt that Ubuntu's design woes
[01:15] <lapo> because everybody can have his voice heard and everybody has a different opinion
[01:15] <troy_s> have _nothing_ to do with community
[01:15] <troy_s> Yes.
[01:16] <troy_s> But let's try a little mental exercise...
[01:16] <troy_s> If you and I were going to sit down and attempt to say
[01:16] <troy_s> design a user interface for someone with your visual sense
[01:16] <lapo> you know you have to deal with a community and you have to maintain it alive, you cannot make huge parts of it unhappy or it won't work
[01:16] <troy_s> We would probably have to have a pretty distinct set of design critera, yes?
[01:16] <lapo> and small vocal group can influence the community a lot
[01:16] <troy_s> completely agree
[01:16] <troy_s> squeeky wheels
[01:16] <troy_s> :)
[01:17] <lapo> eheh
[01:17] <troy_s> In our case though, it is largely a lack of knowledge and fear.
[01:17] <lapo> but that's how it works in oss most of the time
[01:17] <troy_s> Yes.
[01:17] <lapo> you start nicelly and you end up debian :-)
[01:17] <troy_s> And probably why the Free Software art and design field isn't exactly being picked ripely for artistic talent every day :)
[01:17] <troy_s> I think democracy doesn't work for implementation of design
[01:17] <troy_s> but again, if we say
[01:18] <troy_s> had a clear set of design critera --
[01:18] <lapo> yeah
[01:18] <troy_s> such as designing for people with complete colour blindness for example
[01:18] <troy_s> we have already alleviated 99% of the democracy
[01:18] <lapo> I think we had a discussion in dapper time about it and you were thinking the opposite, some time in the oss world make you change your mainf eh :-))
[01:18] <troy_s> 'this does not work as the palette is busted for our audience'
[01:18] <lapo> yeah, sure
[01:19] <troy_s> lapo: No, I think I still largely believe that the Free Software community _SHOULD_ be able to achieve art and design that is far superior to the close house mentality.
[01:19] <lapo> troy_s: yeah with strong and widelly accepted guidelines
[01:19] <troy_s> That said, I completely disagree with not having a well developed audience
[01:19] <troy_s> etc.
[01:19] <lapo> troy_s: and this is way I'm all for tango :-)
[01:19] <troy_s> accepted or not -- guidelines. :)
[01:19] <troy_s> well even tango's err on the side of loose
[01:19] <lapo> troy_s: not accepted = no community :-)
[01:20] <troy_s> but yes, one could attribute some of its success to guidelines
[01:20] <troy_s> look at the sixteen gigs of osx or vista design guidelines
[01:20] <troy_s> ;)
[01:20] <troy_s> designer's bibles are commonplace _everywhere_
[01:20] <lapo> troy_s: sure, but if you have picky bastards sitting on the official repo (read me and jimmac for example) it will work :-)
[01:20] <troy_s> the problem in foss is that either you decide to 'include everyone' or suffer at the hands of appearing as some sort of brutal dictator who doesn't care.
[01:21] <troy_s> i agree...
[01:21] <lapo> troy_s: maybe
[01:21] <troy_s> it would be nice if more of you buggers would document your experiences and such
[01:21] <troy_s> ;)
[01:21] <troy_s> the paper trails are so critical to moving forwards -- building on successes and failures etc.
[01:21] <lapo> troy_s: my english is too lousy to document something :-)
[01:22] <troy_s> for example
[01:22] <troy_s> Shuttle has avoided 'human body parts' thanks to the earlier debacle with the photos
[01:22] <troy_s> Rather like shooting the baby out with the bathwater.
[01:22] <troy_s> As opposed to looking to execution, the entire realm got thrown out.
[01:22] <troy_s> Which is very much too bad.
[01:22] <troy_s> (from an artwork / design standpoint)
[01:23] <lapo> true
[01:23] <lapo> I liked the photos tho :-)
[01:23] <troy_s> exactly
[01:23] <troy_s> _exactly_
[01:24] <troy_s> i was discussing with who that the wallpapers from warty and hoary
[01:24] <troy_s> are about 1000000 times better than what we have had since
[01:24] <lapo> yeah
[01:24] <troy_s> (a little mystical element -- magical? - etc.)
[01:24] <troy_s> i think that really works well for Ubuntu -- communicate that mystical / magical connotation
[01:24] <troy_s> etc.
[01:24] <lapo> artistically speaking warty was a lot better then all the reast imho
[01:24] <troy_s> Now we have erred into what could be summarized as a bloody gradient.
[01:25] <troy_s> With about as much communication as a middle grey wall.
[01:25] <troy_s> lapo:  Completely agree.
[01:25] <troy_s> they at least 'spoke'
[01:25] <lapo> yeah
[01:25] <lapo> it communicated something
[01:25] <lapo> the rest in my picky eyes messy
[01:25] <troy_s> Hell... people who cite apple seem to fail to notice all of the 'behind the scenes' design brainstorming they are doing.
[01:25] <lapo> yeah
[01:26] <lapo> usaility and design first always
[01:26] <troy_s> the rest have progressively learnt to communicate nothing because that yields the least amount of 'that sucks'
[01:26] <troy_s> not realizing that the 'that sucks' also tends to generate people who 'I LOVE IT'
[01:26] <troy_s> generate SOME feeling
[01:26] <lapo> troy_s: and people who cite apple usually refers to osx while os8 for example was a better user experience (crashes apart :-))
[01:26] <troy_s> not completely 'meh'
[01:27] <lapo> very true
[01:27] <troy_s> lapo: The one thing that I will say for Apple (not a fan here) is that their designers are damn well trained, damn well educated, and damn well astute to contemporary design OUTSIDE of bloody computing.
[01:27] <troy_s> and _that_ is the sole feature that keeps them on edge.
[01:27] <lapo> yeah
[01:27] <troy_s> they don't look to what vista is doing... nor open source... etc... they look to all the other areas of contemporary art and design.
[01:27] <troy_s> as should _any_ decent artist / designer.
[01:27] <lapo> they always had slower and more expensive hardware :-)
[01:28] <troy_s> lol
[01:28] <troy_s> and yet their visual stylings have generated legions of fans.
[01:28] <lapo> yeah, because they care about design and are not afraid to innovate
[01:28] <troy_s> note how visually they have gone from sharper edges to rounded edges (all on par with contemporary design trends) etc...
[01:28] <troy_s> probably LONG before 'mainstream' computing went there
[01:28] <lapo> in oss we care too much about what windows users expect
[01:28] <troy_s> all they really do is follow the trends OUTSIDE of computing.
[01:29] <troy_s> nothing brilliant, aside from being brilliantly observant.
[01:29] <lapo> sure, but it is The Right Thing To Do :-)
[01:29] <troy_s> lapo if only that were the case
[01:29] <lapo> beauce is what the use want
[01:29] <troy_s> lapo -- no one seems to be able to say who the hell a given design is for.
[01:29] <troy_s> i have the most respect for the high contrast / etc themes
[01:29] <troy_s> as they clearly state their audience
[01:29] <troy_s> and clearly steer their design towards them
[01:29] <troy_s> and _that_ is far superior design
[01:29] <lapo> good point
[01:29] <troy_s> it 'works'
[01:30] <troy_s> it is like all the silly folks who say global irrationalities like 'red makes you angry'
[01:30] <troy_s> gee... ever see what colour a japanese bridal gown is?
[01:30] <lapo> the problem in oss is that when there design at all it's related to a single project or a bunch of them
[01:30] <troy_s> all cultural based stuff...
[01:30] <troy_s> lapo -- well i think it is wise for default gnome and default kde to be 'middle grey' in presentation -- they are our backbones -- the 'standards'
[01:31] <troy_s> but when you are a distribution, you are 'choosing' how to package something -- sometimes quite literally.
[01:31] <troy_s> and therefore, it would make logical sense, to simply acknowledge that say,
[01:31] <troy_s> Ubuntu for example, is aimed at the 'inexperienced' free software user.
[01:31] <troy_s> So why not extend that into more of a profile?
[01:31] <troy_s> Extend the design pattern to ambody that
[01:31] <troy_s> s/ambody/embody
[01:32] <lapo> that's what really should be done
[01:32] <troy_s> Evaluate all of our design directions based on this audience
[01:32] <troy_s> the clearly stated default design audience
[01:32] <troy_s> then you can work on achieving that 'must have' effect in your design
[01:33] <troy_s> do some brainstorming on what is 'sheik' if you are trying to be 'sheik' for example
[01:33] <troy_s> The _one_ weakness that Ubuntu simply isn't capitalizing on is the attraction via art design.
[01:33] <lapo> the problem is that it doesn't seem to be the most winning approach considering windows marketshare though :-/
[01:34] <troy_s> well lets' see...
[01:34] <troy_s> in your eyes
[01:34] <troy_s> what does free software offer in terms of 'value
[01:34] <troy_s> that Apple and MS don't
[01:34] <troy_s> and in some cases perhaps, _can't_
[01:34] <troy_s> Ideas?
[01:34] <lapo> uhm
[01:35] <lapo> I think mostly flexibility
[01:35] <troy_s> Certainly...
[01:35] <troy_s> That is a good one too... you can customize your computing experience to cater to your needs.
[01:36] <troy_s> I suppose one could argue that Free Software is ethically superior in many respects.
[01:36] <lapo> for sure
[01:36] <troy_s> (more democratic in potential, less 'locked' (ala drm etc))
[01:36] <troy_s> More 'natural'?  The "Divine Creation" versus "Evolution" model that has been cited.
[01:37] <troy_s> (linux kernel evolution would probably be exemplary in this regard for not needing to maintain legacy API functionality)
[01:37] <lapo> but most of the people will not understand the drm problem until it will start byting them and then will be too late
[01:37] <troy_s> Yes, but don't you think that if we managed to encapsulate that strength
[01:37] <troy_s> into a design pattern
[01:37] <troy_s> and utilize it in our marketing
[01:38] <troy_s> that it would be a significant 'must have' article?
[01:38] <troy_s> Execution of course would be the difficult part (avoid being too preachy, etc.)
[01:38] <troy_s> but ... theoretically I firmly believe it could 'work'.
[01:38] <lapo> uhm...not sure because you couldnt et a consensum from the community
[01:38] <troy_s> In what regard?
[01:39] <lapo> for example on the message
[01:39] <lapo> you want the design to give
[01:39] <troy_s> Yes, but in many respects
[01:39] <lapo> you always have to make everybody happy
[01:39] <troy_s> Tango doesn't rely on consensus does it?
[01:39] <troy_s> So it _can_ be done ;)
[01:40] <troy_s> You admitted yourself that Lapo and Jimmac are the 'gatekeepers'
[01:40] <troy_s> ;)
[01:40] <lapo> or better you don't want to make somebody unhappy :-)
[01:40] <troy_s> That happens anyways!
[01:40] <troy_s> :)
[01:40] <troy_s> For example, sabdfl doesn't like Tango
[01:40] <lapo> eheh
[01:40] <troy_s> hell... he is just a percentage
[01:40] <troy_s> isn't he
[01:40] <lapo> that's one problem :-)
[01:40] <troy_s> Some LOVE tango
[01:40] <troy_s> Some HATE tango
[01:40] <troy_s> that's life
[01:41] <troy_s> The more 'middle groundy' you take something, the less people care either way.
[01:41] <troy_s> (which is I suppose where Ubuntu has found its 'comfort' zone)
[01:41] <lapo> so you cannot make strong design decistion :-)
[01:42] <troy_s> automated error REPORTING PLEASE
[01:42] <troy_s> grr
[01:42] <troy_s> ;)
[01:42] <lapo> eheh
[01:42] <troy_s> anyways lapo, it has been an awsome chat -- i really must shower as I stink
[01:42] <troy_s> lol
[01:42] <lapo> eheh
[01:43] <troy_s> All of this sort of stuff should really be discussed on the list
[01:43] <troy_s> I just wish it would happen.
[01:43] <lapo> yeah, I hope it won't be a flamewar :-)
[01:44] <lapo> anyway better to get some sleep, thanks for the nice chat, g'nite
[11:55] <lapo> hi
[11:56] <andreasn> hey
[11:56] <andreasn> lapo: are you registered on freenode, I need to show you a thing
[11:57] <lapo> yes I am
[11:57] <lapo> or at least I think I am :-)
[11:58] <lapo> yes I am registered, I checked out
[01:30] <kwwii_> man, 10+ years linux graphics experience and I have never even heard of .rle files
[01:30] <kwwii_> nor can gimp open them
[01:31] <elkbuntu> what app are they supposedly for/from?
[01:32] <lapo> kwwii_: I think rle is the windows bitmap compression
[01:32] <lapo> kwwii_: are you sure it's not just a bitmap?
[01:32] <kwwii_> lapo: that would explain why I've never heard of it
[01:32] <elkbuntu> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run-length_encoding
[01:33] <kwwii_> elkbuntu: it is for grub (but only a back up file for really funky situations)
[01:33] <elkbuntu> kwwii_, ah...
[01:34] <elkbuntu> "Run-length encoding is used in fax machines (combined with other techniques into Modified Huffman coding). It is relatively efficient because most faxed documents are mostly white space, with occasional interruptions of black."
[01:34] <kwwii_> well, pcx does the same
[01:34] <kwwii_> anyway...
[01:35] <elkbuntu> yeah.. have fun... im off to try sleep off an ear infection
[01:37] <kwwii_> elkbuntu: ouch, get well soon
[01:38] <elkbuntu> kwwii, well i sort of hope so too... since i cant imagine a plane flight to spain is going to be terribly pleasant with a sore ear
[01:38] <kwwii> elkbuntu: it would be pure hell, trust me...been there, done that
[01:39] <kwwii> lapo: what do you do for a living? study? work?
[01:39] <elkbuntu> the infection alone is bad enough, without something else irritating it
[01:39] <kwwii> no doubt
[01:40] <elkbuntu> anyway... zzzzzzzZZZZzzzzZZZ
[01:55] <kwwii> lapo: btw. I added the applications-graphic icon from the tangerine svg (the one with the tube in it) to Human, since Tangerine uses the brush alone
[03:03] <lapo> kwwii: I'm an IT guy
[03:04] <kwwii> lapo: cool, I was just thinking that it might have been nice to invite you to the UDS in Spain to discuss artwork
[03:04] <lapo> kwwii: when it will be?
[03:04] <lapo> and where, you know spain is a bit vague :-)
[03:05] <kwwii> may 6-13th or so
[03:05] <kwwii> in seville
[03:05] <kwwii> I have to talk to those in charge first though - it's quite late now
[03:06] <kwwii> I kinda missed this stuff this time around as I am new at this job :-)
[03:06] <lapo> kwwii: I don't need any financing, not a problem, If work permit I'll see if I can get there
[03:07] <kwwii> lapo: that would be *excellent*
[03:08] <kwwii> we are trying to set up a meeting to discuss artwork planning and execution for all the derivs
[03:08] <kwwii> probably sometime later in the week
[03:09] <lapo> kwwii: If I can get there it will be around the weekend
[03:10] <kwwii> lapo: cool, let's keep in touch concerning this
[03:10] <lapo> something like 12th-13th if I can find the right flyghts
[03:10] <lapo> yeah, sure
[03:11] <kwwii> I think that the 12th is the last day
[03:11] <kwwii> I'll be arriving on the 8th (my parents are in town until then)
[03:42] <ferronica> hi room
[03:43] <ferronica> any one here using Beryl ?
[05:38] <bersace> Hi all
[05:39] <bersace> seems that HumanList is pretty like finished :)
[05:40] <kwwii> ;-)
[05:49] <bersace> the bug reporter (fingerprint) is happy
[05:49] <bersace> thx kwwii
[05:49] <kwwii>  np, thanks go to you ;-)
[09:48] <lapo> hi
[09:58] <lapo> kwwii: ping
[09:58] <kwwii> lapo: pong
[09:59] <lapo> kwwii: I'm on some stuff for tango-common, still in time to commit?
[10:00] <kwwii> lapo: yepp
[10:00] <kwwii> tomorrow midday is about the last chance though
[10:01] <lapo> can you commit I could do it as well, but I wouldn't like to fsck everything up so near the freeze, you know :-)
[10:02] <lapo> uhm...and I get connection time out when I try to branch the tango-common repo :-/
[10:03] <kwwii> sure
[10:03] <kwwii> just let me know what to commit and where
[10:04] <andreasn> lapo: quite the work monster, eh? :)
[10:08] <kwwii> lapo: I'mm checking tango-common out now, can you send me your changes per email or such?
[10:08] <lapo> sure
[10:40] <kwwii> lapo: did you see https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/103030
[10:40] <kwwii> ?
[10:40] <ubotu> Malone bug 103030 in tangerine-icon-theme "Gaim 'view log' icon from Tangerine theme is ridiculously huge" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] 
[10:40] <lapo> kwwii: yes, it's a gaim icon abuse bug
[10:41] <kwwii> so is it a gaim problem or a problem with an icon?
[10:41] <kwwii> or is the guy just being abusive :-)
[10:41] <lapo> kwwii: it uses gtk-dnd-multiple for the logs and the new gtk stock provide that icon only in 32x32
[10:42] <lapo> kwwii: and anyway the icon should be scaled, do I'd say it's definitelly a gaim bug
[10:42] <kwwii> gotcha..I'll ping seb about that, see what we can do
[10:42] <kwwii> hrm, he is gone for the day, I'll ask him tomorrow
[10:43] <lapo> kwwii: make it use a the text mimetype icon is probably the fastest solution albeit ugly :-)
[10:45] <kwwii> lapo: right (and good idea for a quick fix)
[10:55] <lapo> ok, gdm-setup done, anyone with a nice scim icon?
[10:56] <lapo> c'mon andreasn rise your hand :-)
[11:50] <alefteris> hi all! is there any place i can find the new tango gtk stoke icons?
[11:51] <andreasn> lapo: huh?
[11:51] <andreasn> oh, a icon for scim?
[11:51] <andreasn> I still haven't figured out what the app do :/
[11:52] <andreasn> alefteris: hi there, check out gnome-icon-theme-extras in gnome svn
[11:52] <andreasn> alefteris: we're working on getting them into gtk+ right now
[11:52] <alefteris> andreasn, thanks
[11:52] <kwwii> alefteris: die sind auch im Feisty Tangerine
[11:52] <kwwii> erm
[11:52] <kwwii> german, sorry
[11:53] <kwwii> they are also in Feisty Tangerine
[11:53] <kwwii> so if you have a feisty system just update :-)
[11:54] <kwwii> if I'm speaking german without knowing it, it is time for bed
[11:54] <kwwii> night all
[11:54] <andreasn> night kwwii!
[11:54] <kwwii> lapo: send me your changes whenever you are ready
[11:54] <kwwii> I'll see that they are included tomorrow morning
[11:56] <andreasn> lapo: I can fix you a identical to the one that's currently there and send it to you super-early tomorrow
[11:56] <andreasn> my gf wants me to go to bed
[11:56] <andreasn> night all!