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[12:14] <Fujitsu> NewPackagesFreeze exceptions really shouldn't be happening 3 days before deep freeze.
[12:17] <AstralJava> Fujitsu: Yes, this is understood. Like is said in the bug report description, we would love to see these in Feisty's universe already, but can live without (of course) if it doesn't happen. A lot of obstacles were had to overcome to make these happen, and the schedule just wasn't easier than what happened as of now. :)
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[12:24] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: they're just trying to avoid having to set up a 3rd party repo for Feisty
[12:25] <Fujitsu> That's good, then.
=== Fujitsu mostly retracts his objection.
[12:25] <LaserJock> I *think* these are the last packages they need in order to do it
[12:25] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: it's branding for a fairly active derivative
[12:25] <crimsun> I need a big whiteboard and some dry erase markers.
[12:26] <Fujitsu> ajmitch: Noted.
[12:26] <LaserJock> just make sure to get a good one
[12:26] <Fujitsu> crimsun: Why?
[12:26] <LaserJock> mine in the lab get's so dried on we have to use some solvents to get the stuff off
[12:27] <crimsun> Fujitsu: one use case here doesn't know what in the world he wants for audio in Ubuntu
[12:28] <crimsun> I need to somehow find time to write a point-n'-click iface
[12:28] <LaserJock> my labmate has a paper sized whiteboard and pen sized markers
[12:28] <LaserJock> she uses it for almost everything
[12:29] <Fujitsu> crimsun: What does this clicky interface need to do?
[12:32] <crimsun> basically point people to whether pulseaudio should be used, and if so, how it should be configured
[12:33] <AstralJava> I'm off to sleep now. Thanks anyone if you find time to look at the bugs, and thanks again LaserJock for checking them up on REVU!! :) G'night all!
[12:33] <crimsun> someone punch me in the head
[12:34] <ajmitch> we'd rather not
[12:34] <_MMA_> Im hanging around answer anything.
[12:34] <crimsun> apparently, every single time, I keep forgetting how difficult configuring audio can be
[12:37] <LaserJock> what's difficult about it, it should "Just Work" ;-)
[12:37] <crimsun> it does "just work" for me
[12:37] <crimsun> on the other hand, people keep inventing new ways to break things
[12:37] <Fujitsu> Heheh.
[12:38] <crimsun> "here's a wrench, don't go smack yourself in the face"
[12:38] <Fujitsu> Fantastic.
[12:38] <LaserJock> yes, people seem equally, if not more so, able to break things than fix them
[12:38] <crimsun> now don't get me wrong - I love breaking things. It's just recovering from /other/ people breaking things...
=== Fujitsu installs etch in a VM.
[12:41] <joejaxx> is there a list of mirrors who hold complete copies of all cd images?
[12:41] <joejaxx> i know some of them are partial mirrors
[12:44] <LaserJock> for Ubuntu?
[12:44] <joejaxx> yes
[12:45] <LaserJock> I think the launchpad lists should work
[12:45] <joejaxx> hmm interesting i had not thought about that
[12:46] <joejaxx> LaserJock: thanks :)
=== bddebian starts breaking stuff.. he he hehe
[12:46] <bddebian> Hmm, Beavis and Butthead don't translate well in text
[12:47] <joejaxx> hopefully they all have the same directory structure
[12:47] <joejaxx> otherwise this is going to be a pain to script
[12:48] <LaserJock> bddebian: that's so 90's ;-)
[12:48] <crimsun> everything under the root has the same directory structure
[12:48] <crimsun> otherwise it wouldn't be called a "mirror"...
[12:48] <Fujitsu> There are only about three mirrors that carry the dailies.
[12:48] <joejaxx> crimsun: ok i just wanted to make sure
[12:48] <DktrKranz> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/transcriber/1.5.1-2ubuntu1
[12:48] <joejaxx> Fujitsu: that is alright
[12:49] <DktrKranz> is it normal having a transcriber_1.5.1-2ubuntu1.tar.gz tarball?
[12:49] <joejaxx> this will only be for standard releases
[12:49] <crimsun> joejaxx: note that mirrors are free to place the root wherever they wish
[12:49] <Fujitsu> Ah.
[12:49] <ajmitch> DktrKranz: only if it was uploaded badly
[12:49] <joejaxx> and maybe Herds
[12:49] <joejaxx> crimsun: ah ok
[12:49] <joejaxx> thanks that makes this a little easier
[12:49] <DktrKranz> ajmitch, I'm going to submit a merge request for it
[12:49] <DktrKranz> do I need to note it?
[12:49] <ajmitch> DktrKranz: ok, why?
[12:50] <joejaxx> AND launchpad shows speeds this is grat
[12:50] <joejaxx> great*
[12:50] <ajmitch> binary file conflict
[12:50] <ajmitch> ?
[12:50] <DktrKranz> it's on your rc-fixes page
[12:50] <ajmitch> but what bug are you fixing, that isn't in -2ubuntu1 ?
[12:51] <DktrKranz> fixed in debian
[12:51] <DktrKranz> debian 403168
[12:51] <ubotu> Debian bug 403168 in tendra "tendra: /usr/share/man/man1/pl.1.gz also in gnustep-base-runtime" [Normal,Closed]  http://bugs.debian.org/403168
[12:52] <ajmitch> when you say that you're submitting a merge request, you mean you're putting up a debdiff to upload?
[12:52] <DktrKranz> yes, i do
[12:52] <ajmitch> ok
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[12:53] <DktrKranz> I'm going to generate a debdiff soon
[12:53] <DktrKranz> I will note down such issue too
[12:53] <ajmitch> the issue is noted in the changelog for -3
[12:53] <sharms> Burgundavia: maybe novell doesn't make their source distribution as easily available?
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[12:54] <DktrKranz> ok, thanks
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[12:54] <ajmitch> ie, it was fixed in -3
[12:55] <ajmitch> so make sure you get the .orig.tar.gz & diff.gz from debian
[12:55] <Fujitsu> Is Soyuz going to like having such a change without a new upstream version number?
[12:56] <ajmitch> if soyuz can't handle it, it's more broken than I thought
[12:56] <crimsun> shall we have a sprint for the RC bug page?
[12:56] <ajmitch> crimsun: go for it
[12:56] <ajmitch> I'll try & finish adding a comments field this afternoon, shall I?
[12:56] <joejaxx> grep, awk, sed, sh scripting ftw
[12:56] <crimsun> ajmitch: great
[12:56] <ajmitch> before too many people hit the page
[12:56] <joejaxx> commadline tools are VERY powerful
[12:56] <ajmitch> crimsun: sadly I can't update the data
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[12:57] <sharms> ajmitch: my getting involved blog entry had a bit over 5500 hits
[12:57] <ajmitch> the debian box that I pull the BTS data from is down, but it shouldn't change much anyway
[12:57] <ajmitch> sharms: my authtool screenshots had ~30K hits
[12:57] <sharms> link?
[12:58] <Fujitsu> ajmitch: Having a comments box will make things a whole lot better... Thanks for all of this :)
[12:58] <sharms> my stats just come from people who click through to the comments section
[12:58] <ajmitch> sharms: it was on planet, blame Burgundavia 
[12:58] <ajmitch> right
[12:58] <Fujitsu> sharms: It was on the front page of Digg 12 hours ago.
[12:58] <sharms> so if we can get 1 kid to stop playing counterstrike and start hacking, then it is a success
=== ajmitch can still re-create the rc bugs list & update just the ubuntu data
[12:59] <LaserJock> yeah
[12:59] <Fujitsu> Even an extra person or two would make a difference.
[12:59] <Fujitsu> (although 5500 would be better :P)
[12:59] <crimsun> actually, let 'em play CS. Just get 'em into universe work, too! :-)
[12:59] <sharms> I found it very interesting that one of the barriers to get involved was that a lot of people have never used irc
[01:00] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: would you want to try & coordinate 5500 people working?
[01:00] <ajmitch> and teaching them how to do stuff?
[01:00] <crimsun> I'm still waiting for the Jurassic Park interface to Ubuntu universe
[01:00] <Fujitsu> ajmitch: We can have 3 packages each!
[01:00] <sharms> and nobody bothers to explain IRC since to us, it is just assumed
[01:00] <Fujitsu> Um, good point.
[01:00] <ajmitch> sharms: did you mention the mailing lists in your post?
[01:00] <sharms> ajmitch: no :(
[01:01] <sharms> the crowd that reads my blog likes more instant gratification
[01:01] <ajmitch> hah
[01:01] <ajmitch> "This blog is just spamming to get adwords revenue!
[01:01] <ajmitch> Yes, you caught me. I made $2.64 since January."
[01:01] <ajmitch> nice one :)
[01:01] <joejaxx> haha that is funny
[01:01] <joejaxx> :P
[01:01] <joejaxx> grep "<a href=\"http\:\/\/" +cdmirrors | grep "\">http<\/a>" | cut -f 2 -d \"
[01:01] <joejaxx> ftw
[01:02] <ajmitch> joejaxx: good thing you didn't see the steaming pile of evil that is my RC bugs page
[01:02] <sharms> I am going to really try and get involved with feisty + 1.  After these next few weeks I will have a ton more time.  Right now I spend 80 hours a week working with suse 9 hacking
=== joejaxx looks
[01:02] <ajmitch> sharms: uh, why?
[01:02] <sharms> job makes me
[01:02] <ajmitch> heh
[01:02] <ajmitch> lucky you ;)
[01:02] <sharms> Lucky to have a job thats for sure
[01:03] <sharms> basically I manage the distribution for 4000 point of sale systems
[01:03] <ajmitch> certainly
[01:03] <sharms> and they are all sles 9
[01:03] <ajmitch> lucky to have a job that's at least linux-related, too
[01:03] <sharms> yeah somehow novell tricked my employer into going with them
[01:04] <joejaxx> ajmitch oh wow
[01:04] <joejaxx> ajmitch: i looked at that page lol
[01:05] <joejaxx> ajmitch: i want to eventually pull the speed as i can base the preference setting on that
[01:05] <ajmitch> k
[01:06] <ajmitch> ok everyone, get to work on RC bugs
[01:06] <ajmitch> I'm off to meet parents for lunch :)
[01:06] <joejaxx> :)
=== ajmitch will hack on it later today
[01:06] <Fujitsu> Bye ajmitch.
[01:06] <joejaxx> bye ajmitch :)
[01:07] <crimsun> oh, right, I nuked ~/.gnome* and ~/.gconf* . I was wondering why everything was stock.
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[01:11] <joejaxx> so it looks like i am going to have to manually feed in the the file
[01:11] <joejaxx> to get the other values
[01:11] <Fujitsu> joejaxx: Why?
[01:11] <joejaxx> Fujitsu: well because i need the country too
[01:11] <joejaxx> and the speed
[01:12] <Fujitsu> You can use sed to get those various bits, surely?
[01:12] <joejaxx> well
[01:13] <joejaxx> it is not like the country is listed for everyone
[01:13] <joejaxx> every one*
[01:13] <Fujitsu> True.
[01:13] <joejaxx> it is country, list of mirrors etc
[01:14] <joejaxx> i mean i could probably have some sort of check
[01:14] <Fujitsu> It'd be great if LP provided a machine-readable list.
[01:14] <joejaxx> based on the <strong> tag
[01:14] <joejaxx> Fujitsu: yeah like +raw
[01:14] <joejaxx> <strong>Australia</strong>
[01:14] <joejaxx> the countries are like that
[01:17] <joejaxx> and just have it use cut -f 2 -d ">"
[01:17] <joejaxx> until it reaches another <strong> tag
=== joejaxx goes to script a concept
[01:18] <Fujitsu> Isn't screenscraping fun?
[01:18] <joejaxx> :P
[01:19] <joejaxx> :)
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[01:29] <nrg88> will there be an ubuntu dvd release with the major DEs on it?
[01:29] <nrg88> :)
[01:29] <LaserJock> I think there is always a DVD release with Main on it
[01:29] <LaserJock> or hmm, maybe I'm wrong
[01:30] <nrg88> i don't think the whole gnome is on the kubuntu dvd for example
[01:30] <nrg88> i was thinking of a dvd like suse's
[01:32] <LaserJock> I didn't think there were seperate DVDs
[01:32] <nrg88> well, if you insert a dvd, you can't quite select the respective DE
[01:32] <LaserJock> no, but it doesn't really matter does it?
[01:32] <LaserJock> at least for me it doesn't
[01:33] <nrg88> who knows, maybe we should have a survey
[01:33] <nrg88> it doesn't matter much for me though, i use Kubuntu, but then again, who knows... :) maybe a lot of people need it
[01:34] <LaserJock> it's a known wish :-)
[01:34] <nrg88> it is?
[01:34] <nrg88> it's on launchpad?
[01:34] <LaserJock> it's just a matter of getting people motivated to write the code and maintain it
[01:34] <LaserJock> I think so, probably in some spec from a year ago :-)
[01:34] <nrg88> ok then
[01:35] <nrg88> LaserJock: do you use Gnome?
[01:35] <nrg88> (and NO, i don't want to start a flamewar ;) )
[01:36] <LaserJock> nrg88: I use a bit of evreything :-)
[01:36] <LaserJock> mostly Gnome these days
[01:36] <LaserJock> though I was mostly a KDE user in my Gentoo days
[01:37] <crimsun> -fomglaserjock
[01:37] <LaserJock> hehe
[01:37] <nrg88> today i booted into Ubuntu live cd, trying to reproduce a java instalation bug, and what i observed was that Gnome in Ubuntu was way more polished than KDE :|
[01:38] <LaserJock> I've even been know to run openbox and fvwm a fair amount
[01:38] <Burgundavia> nrg88: for better or worse, GNOME is the primary desktop of Ubuntu
[01:38] <nrg88> i see
[01:38] <LaserJock> well, I don't know that Kubuntu's KDE is much less polished than other distro's KDE's
[01:39] <LaserJock> I just find KDE to be less polished, in looks, etc.
[01:39] <LaserJock> and of course many people will disagree with me
[01:39] <nrg88> i think i'm going to download MEPIS, and give it a try
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=== jdong glares at LaserJock, then decides not to respond....
[01:39] <jdong> nrg88: take a look at OpenSuse KDE if you want to see polished KDE....
[01:39] <LaserJock> like I've always said
[01:40] <nrg88> but i would like to stay *ubuntu ;)
[01:40] <LaserJock> Gnome has the look-n-feel, KDE has the apps
[01:40] <jdong> nrg88: then you can make a decision if it's indeed possible to polish KDE better than GNOME
[01:40] <jdong> nrg88: (I'm not saying to switch to SUSE)
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[01:40] <nrg88> jdong: suse was the 1st linux i was experimenting with
[01:41] <nrg88> 3 times
[01:41] <jdong> ah, ok
[01:41] <nrg88> somewhy it died on me
[01:41] <nrg88> once the 8.1
[01:41] <nrg88> and twice the 9.3 :D
[01:41] <jdong> have you tried it recently, like 10.1/10.2?
[01:41] <nrg88> i know, i was the fault
[01:41] <nrg88> yep
[01:41] <jdong> they have a very polished KDE desktop
[01:41] <nrg88> but when i tried Breezy
[01:41] <jdong> I was just pointed that out
[01:41] <nrg88> (Kubuntu)
[01:41] <nrg88> i fell in love with it
[01:41] <jdong> not saying anything about hardware support or overall system reliability, etc....
[01:42] <nrg88> yep, i saw that jdong
[01:42] <jdong> just the OpenSuse KDE artwork/feel is very professional/polished
[01:42] <nrg88> indeed, and i like the new Kickoff menu
[01:42] <nrg88> oo
[01:42] <nrg88> *too
[01:42] <crimsun> speaking of artwork, FC7's...
[01:42] <nrg88> and the artwork
[01:42] <crimsun> now that's some /good/ artwork
[01:42] <nrg88> they look "PRO"
[01:43] <jdong> crimsun: +1
[01:43] <nrg88> polished, and professional :)
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[01:43] <crimsun> the young lady who heads up that work on FC7 blogs about it, and it's incredible the consideration (which is the norm) that goes into it
[01:43] <LaserJock> if only Fedora worked as well as it looked :/
[01:44] <nrg88> :D
[01:44] <Burgundavia> heh
[01:44] <nrg88> that's why i fell in love with kubuntu, it worked
[01:44] <nrg88> it didn't die on me
[01:44] <Burgundavia> RH has at least 2 artists on staff
[01:44] <LaserJock> I thought it looked great, then I tried to do anything with it
[01:44] <nrg88> and when it died, after some time, i could fix it
[01:44] <LaserJock> opensuse was the closest to looking *and* working great
[01:44] <jdong> heh agreed
[01:45] <jdong> but media was an awful experience for me :-/
[01:45] <nrg88> i heard good things about SLED 10
[01:45] <jdong> novell's strict legal interpretation...
[01:45] <Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: you realize that Nvu has a dead upstream?
[01:45] <LaserJock> isn't he trying to get komposer/composer/whatever it's called
[01:46] <Burgundavia> probably
[01:46] <nrg88> kompozer
[01:46] <nrg88> it's a bugfix release for NVu
[01:46] <tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: what he said
[01:46] <nrg88> and a few plugins i think, i helped in the Hungarian documentation :)
[01:46] <Burgundavia> daniel glazer might even release something this century
[01:47] <tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: Perhaps ;)  Meanwhile supposedly this other guy is going to fix up some of the bugs that were left behind
[01:47] <LaserJock> sweet, I made it through tetex-*
[01:47] <LaserJock> got rid of about 1/3 of the bugs
[01:48] <crimsun> ^5
[01:48] <crimsun> jordan's an MOTU superstar!
[01:48] <LaserJock> lol, whatever
[01:48] <crimsun> I'll just bask in glow
[01:48] <LaserJock> that reminds me though
[01:49] <nrg88> http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/a/ab/Screeny102_kickoff_menu.jpg i like the looks of that :)
[01:49] <LaserJock> I need to go do a blog post
[01:49] <LaserJock> nrg88: yeah, I actually tried that the other day, it's pretty slick
[01:49] <LaserJock> it's not unusably slow
[01:49] <Burgundavia> yay for huge applet that makes no sense
[01:50] <nrg88> Burgundavia: you mean kickoff?
[01:50] <LaserJock> :(
[01:50] <LaserJock> I liked it
[01:50] <Burgundavia> all of teh Novell stuff strikes me as stuffing too much into a single interface
[01:51] <Burgundavia> plus it integrates with exactly nothing fromt he existing desktop, such as the deskbar
[01:51] <LaserJock> bah, silly integration ;-)
[01:51] <LaserJock> I generally dislike integration
[01:52] <LaserJock> I could be convinced otherwise though
[01:52] <LaserJock> seems like "integration" is usually codeword for "we're going to do things you don't want without asking you because most people might like it"
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[01:54] <nrg88> oh well, waiting for KDE 4.0 :)
[01:55] <nrg88> i'm curious about it
[01:55] <Burgundavia> personally, KDE 4, no matter how good, is going to be a publicity disaster
[01:55] <Burgundavia> you cannot promise that much
[01:55] <jdong> it's not going to do my dishes?
[01:55] <nrg88> why you say that?
[01:55] <idnar> kdishwasher
[01:55] <Burgundavia> because they have promised the moon
[01:55] <nrg88> :D
[01:55] <Burgundavia> and they cannot possibly deliver on that
[01:55] <nrg88> that surprised me too, yes
[01:56] <Burgundavia> GNOME releases are boring and predictable
[01:56] <jdong> :)
[01:56] <jdong> which is now a feature.
[01:56] <jdong> :)
[01:56] <Burgundavia> surprise, that makes it easy to plan
[01:56] <Burgundavia> if I was going to deploy a corporate desktop, boring and predictable are selling features
[01:57] <Burgundavia> the other reason I love Ubuntu
[01:57] <Burgundavia> it is terribly boring to have defined support dates, but it sure does make my life easier as a sysadmin
[01:57] <LaserJock> sure, but it's hard to get all the hordes excited about blah releases :-)
[01:57] <LaserJock> "Where's the bling?"
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[01:58] <Fujitsu> Ew, why have my GDM cursors been eaten by KDE?
[01:58] <Burgundavia> you can have bling within defined dates
[01:58] <sharms> LaserJock: on the MOTU interviews you should have them post a desktop screenshot.  People love that
[01:58] <RAOF> Becasue openoffice-style-crystal has pulled in a bunch of KDE packages.
[01:59] <LaserJock> sure, but if you have boring releases it's tough to get the average user excited, I guess
[01:59] <LaserJock> sharms: I know, I know. I just takes time and bandwidth
[01:59] <LaserJock> I'll probably do it in the future
[01:59] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: boring schedule != boring releases
[01:59] <Fujitsu> RAOF: Noted, but why does that automatically eat my cursors?
[02:00] <sharms> ok I am off to cincinatti, oh for the next week
[02:00] <RAOF> Fujitsu: On that, you have me, sir.  No idea. :P)
[02:00] <sharms> take care
[02:00] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: yes, but one of the complaints I've seen often about Gnome is boring releases
[02:00] <LaserJock> not boring schdule
[02:00] <LaserJock> cya sharms 
[02:00] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: a lot of that is due to lack of people and lack of direction
[02:00] <LaserJock> sure
[02:01] <Burgundavia> blaming it on a fixed release schedule isn't really true
[02:01] <LaserJock> but I guess KDE has gone out and hyped up KDE4, so maybe they'll get more people and direction to pull it off, at least reasonably
[02:01] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: I never said that
[02:01] <nrg88> ubuntu for example is trying to do exciting releases in with borind schedules
[02:02] <LaserJock> I was talking about releases not schedules
[02:02] <nrg88> do you guys read the posts on dot.kde.org ?
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[02:02] <nrg88> they are really working on it
[02:02] <nrg88> decibel, solid, phonon...
[02:03] <Burgundavia> nrg88: tell me what those really are
[02:03] <RAOF> Yay, *another* sound framework :(
[02:03] <Burgundavia> indeed
[02:04] <Burgundavia> decible is nothing more than a wrapping for telepathy
[02:04] <Burgundavia> solid is HAL and phonon is gstreamer and xine, basically
[02:04] <nrg88> not exactly
=== Fujitsu reinvents the wheel.
[02:04] <nrg88> phonon can use gstreamer, or xine
[02:04] <Burgundavia> <mjg59> KDE ABSTRACTED MY ABSTRACTION LAYER
[02:04] <nrg88> but application will not need to write plugins for separate backends
[02:05] <nrg88> they will only use the Phonon api
[02:05] <RAOF> Which could, of course, also be achived by just using gstreamer :P
[02:05] <Burgundavia> except if they need to do something more
[02:05] <nrg88> and phonon does the job with any of the backends that are selected system wide
[02:05] <Burgundavia> except all the major distributions have chosen gstreamer
[02:05] <jdong> nrg88: are you denying that's double-abstraction?
[02:06] <crimsun> yes, make my life hellish! Please $deity! I LOVE duplication of audio backends because I CAN'T GET ENOUGH!
[02:06] <nrg88> jdong: i don't know what is it exaclty :D
[02:06] <jdong> nrg88: well it's abstracting an abstraction :)
[02:06] <jdong> nrg88: with a very convincing sounding PR.
[02:06] <nrg88> crimsun: they don't duplicate any of the backends
[02:06] <nrg88> they just made a common api to use them
[02:06] <jdong> nrg88: sure they do. they made a new "backend"
[02:06] <jdong> nrg88: so crimsun will now get decibel bugs
[02:06] <RAOF> I don't see the point of having plugabble, pluggable backends.
[02:06] <jdong> err phonon
[02:06] <crimsun> but it's SHINY
[02:07] <jdong> RAOF: I suppose that means you aren't a card-carrying member of the reiser4 fanclub? :D
[02:07] <crimsun> now I'm all for abstraction, being a CS guy, but man...
[02:07] <RAOF> jdong: From what I saw, reiser4 has some cool ideas (particualrly metadata as filesystem), but I don't know enough details
[02:08] <Burgundavia> nrg88: basically, all the backends already exist adn all these efforts are pretty much giant duplications
[02:08] <jdong> RAOF: yeah I like a lot of aspects in the design and a lot of reiser's visions on filesystems....
[02:08] <jdong> RAOF: I just wish it could've been done in a cooperative way :-/
[02:08] <Fujitsu> You mean, we don't need a Hardware Abstraction Layer Abstraction Layer? I'm disappointed.
[02:09] <nrg88> Burgundavia: if you write a music app, you have to use A backend
[02:09] <jdong> Fujitsu: halal... now we just need a K somewhere and....
[02:09] <Fujitsu> Burgundavia: Said backends already exist.
[02:09] <nrg88> now what happens if that backend isn't there in a distro?
[02:09] <jdong> nrg88: backend already exists.
[02:09] <nrg88> you write a plugin to another backend
[02:09] <Burgundavia> nrg88: because every major distro ships xine and gstreamer
[02:09] <crimsun> nrg88: err, that's an intractable problem
[02:09] <jdong> nrg88: why not standardize on an existing backend?
[02:09] <RAOF> Then the distro packages it.
[02:09] <jdong> nrg88: a backend to a backend doesn't solve that problem.
[02:09] <crimsun> what if my system doesn't have a sound device?
[02:09] <nrg88> jdong: i don't know
[02:09] <RAOF> (An existing, *pluggable* backend)
[02:09] <nrg88> it should be done this way
[02:09] <nrg88> one should be standardized
[02:10] <jdong> nrg88: gstreamer, buddy.
[02:10] <Burgundavia> oh, and windows and mac os support are rabbit holes
[02:10] <crimsun> sure, I can /hope/ that the OS provides a dummy sink
[02:10] <nrg88> but what happens with the other?
[02:10] <crimsun> but what if it doesn't?
[02:10] <jdong> crimsun: and it BETTER be audible! :D
[02:10] <nrg88> if KDE would have been standardized, what would you do?
[02:10] <nrg88> would you be happy?
[02:10] <jdong> nrg88: if ARTS was standardized, then sure.
[02:10] <jdong> nrg88: I would be content with using it.
[02:10] <jdong> nrg88: but it's not.
[02:10] <nrg88> arts is dead ;)
[02:10] <jdong> nrg88: so KDE decides to write yet another set of backends.
[02:10] <RAOF> If everyone used a single, pluggable media backend as good as gstreamer?  Totally yes!
[02:11] <jdong> nrg88: that is just duplication and complexity...
[02:11] <nrg88> phonon is to backends like freedesktop.org to DEs
[02:11] <Burgundavia> not really
[02:11] <crimsun> so everyone programs to phonon? Great!
[02:11] <crimsun> ...except not everyone will program to phonon.
[02:11] <jdong> nrg88: umm... what?
[02:11] <crimsun> Back to square one.
[02:12] <nrg88> no, kde apps will use phonon
[02:12] <nrg88> most of them
[02:12] <bddebian> Oohh am I missing another pissing match? :-)
[02:12] <jdong> crimsun: but I wrote a backend that can use phonon or any of 5 other media frameworks....
[02:12] <jdong> crimsun: so everyone should use that too...
[02:12] <crimsun> jdong: great! Backport it to Warty!
[02:12] <jdong> :)
[02:12] <jdong> nrg88: dude, read some of the things you're typing ;-)
[02:12] <jdong> :D
[02:12] <nrg88> for example? 
[02:12] <nrg88> :D
[02:13] <jdong> <nrg88> no, kde apps will use phonon
[02:13] <jdong>  most of them
[02:13] <crimsun> nrg88: err, so it's strictly for kde4 apps? Why only kde4 apps?
[02:13] <jdong> and that's to be compared to fd.o how?
[02:13] <nrg88> crimsun: i suppose any app can use phonon
[02:13] <crimsun> nrg88: right, so it'll become another backend
[02:13] <nrg88> but for now i know that kde 4 apps are written to use phonon
[02:13] <LaserJock> and another tex bug bites the dust
[02:13] <jdong> nrg88: that sounds like yet another backend to me....
[02:13] <Burgundavia> nrg88: I don't see GNOME using phonon
[02:14] <nrg88> if you say phonon is another backend, is like saying freedesktop.org is another de
[02:14] <jdong> nrg88: umm... that makes no sense.
[02:14] <Burgundavia> nrg88: ok, lets look at the situation
[02:14] <nrg88> Burgundavia: because phonon is made by kde developers
[02:14] <Burgundavia> with kde4, you have app --> phonon --> gsreamer|xine
[02:14] <crimsun> bddebian: yes, bring the zomgponies
[02:14] <Burgundavia> with GNOME, you have app --> gstreamer
[02:15] <jdong> nrg88: that sounds like a MS pitch for OpenXML....
[02:15] <Burgundavia> which is harder to debug?
=== DktrKranz [n=Luca@ubuntu/member/dktrkranz]  has left #ubuntu-motu ["Sto] 
[02:15] <nrg88> i don't know, i don't use gstreamer
[02:15] <nrg88> i use xine
[02:15] <nrg88> sometimes i have trouble, so i have to use vlc or mplayer
[02:15] <nrg88> i need different players for that
[02:15] <crimsun> and xine can use, what, oss? esd? sdl? pulse? alsa?
[02:16] <nrg88> "Phonon will be the new multimedia framework for KDE4. Phonon will provide an easy way for KDE developers to use various backends, such as Xine, GStreamer and NMM."
=== RAOF just wishes all those players could fix gstreamer!
[02:16] <jdong> phonon should use xine with a phonon output backend.....
[02:16] <nrg88> phonon is intended to use a lot of them
[02:16] <Burgundavia> jdong: pipe that through gstreamer and then nmm and through pulse audio for extra giggles
[02:16] <LaserJock> hmm, not to sidetrack the discussion, but isn't KDE4 a lot more than sound "stuff"?
[02:16] <nrg88> if it would use just xine, why would the kde developers write it?
[02:16] <crimsun> LaserJock: no, it's only sound. And ponies.
[02:17] <Fujitsu> LaserJock: But it is a lot of reinventing the wheel.
[02:17] <nrg88> :D
[02:17] <Fujitsu> ANd ponies.
[02:17] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: yes, it includes other crackish frameworks too
[02:17] <Fujitsu> Hm, The Golden Ponies must be coming soon!
[02:17] <Burgundavia> like solid, which promoted the mjg59 quote
[02:17] <Fujitsu> So they are seriously sticking another layer on top of HAL?
[02:17] <Burgundavia> yep
[02:17] <jdong> yeah :(
[02:17] <crimsun> now don't get me wrong, I dool drool in anticipation of KDE4, and I'm sure the KDE4 devs have their reasons for Phonon. I just quail at triaging its bugs, too.
[02:17] <nrg88> Burgundavia: it doesn't include them, it can only use them
[02:17] <crimsun> dool drool. Nice.
[02:17] <crimsun> do drool, even
[02:18] <jdong> crimsun: haha see what mentioning KDE4 is doing to you? :D
[02:18] <bddebian> quail?
[02:18] <RAOF> Yeah, nice little birds.  Very tasty.
[02:18] <jdong> crimsun: though I don't think that sentence nearly matches what I said to Kees that one day.....
[02:18] <jdong> :D
[02:18] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: that's a bit harsh. Kalzium's KDE4 port is really rocking
[02:19] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: yes, the app stuff looks very cool
[02:19] <Burgundavia> it is this underlyuing reinvention of the wheel that scares me
[02:19] <crimsun> bddebian: verb form.
[02:19] <crimsun> "to lose heart or courage in difficulty or danger; shrink with fear"
[02:20] <jdong> RAOF: no I think he's refering to the vice president^^
[02:20] <nrg88> Burgundavia: so you suggest standardizing gstreamer for gnome, and xine for kde?
[02:20] <jdong> haha, actually that description matches quite well
[02:22] <Burgundavia> nrg88: no
[02:23] <nrg88> that means an application would have to maintain a lot of plugins (one for xine, one for gstreamer, etc...)
[02:24] <jdong> nrg88: how about everyone use gstreamer?
[02:24] <jdong> ;-)
[02:24] <marcin_ant> hi guys
[02:24] <crimsun> to each his own. Just don't make your own my own. :-D
[02:24] <nrg88> jdong: how about everyone using KDE?
[02:24] <nrg88> does it sound good?
[02:24] <nrg88> no it doesn't
[02:24] <nrg88> :|
[02:24] <jdong> nrg88: why can't KDE use gstreamer again?
[02:25] <RAOF> Because it's got a "G" in it
[02:25] <jdong> nrg88: gstreamer is not a GNOME stack...
[02:25] <jdong> nrg88: the g in the name is totally unrelated
[02:25] <marcin_ant> I'm working on some package with webapp and got a problem with lintian and php files
[02:25] <nrg88> the kde devs were thinking about it
[02:25] <nrg88> don't know why they didn't like the idea :|
[02:25] <marcin_ant> could someone tell me how should I install php files in package without executable flag?
[02:25] <nrg88> RAOF: lol :D
[02:26] <marcin_ant> (they are set as executable in orig sources)
[02:26] <nrg88> jdong: and tell this to the other backend's developers
[02:26] <RAOF> Hey could some one send me a msn message (deflectoracc@hotmail.com)?  I want to get gaim to crash.
[02:27] <jdong> RAOF: pidgin.
[02:27] <jdong> kidding :)
[02:28] <crimsun> marcin_ant: debian/rules. Use install -m
[02:29] <marcin_ant> crimsun: hmm is there any possibility to use some dh_* magic?
[02:29] <marcin_ant> crimsun: I use *.install file to select all files do I really need to use install -m?
[02:30] <crimsun> no. Is dh_fixperms(1) not functioning properly?
[02:31] <LaserJock> hmm, interesting bug report asking for backports of libs so they can install Debian experimental tex packages in Dapper
=== reggaemanu [n=manu@ARennes-257-1-159-205.w86-214.abo.wanadoo.fr]  has joined #ubuntu-motu
[02:32] <crimsun> how invasive are the backports?
[02:32] <minghua> LaserJock: bug number please?
[02:32] <crimsun> the lib backports, that is
[02:36] <LaserJock> bug #47641
[02:36] <ubotu> Malone bug 47641 in tex-common "Debian TeXLive packages require additional libraries..." [Medium,Rejected]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/47641
[02:36] <marcin_ant> crimsun: well no, it doesn't fix php scripts
[02:36] <nrg88> jdong: why does Gnome use ESD?
[02:36] <nrg88> why not only gstreamer?
[02:37] <crimsun> nrg88: gnome is moving away from esound
[02:37] <crimsun> toward pulseaudio, more than likely
[02:37] <nrg88> but why?
[02:37] <nrg88> why not gstreamer?
[02:38] <nrg88> you guys said even kde should use gstreamer
[02:39] <crimsun> I didn't say anything of that sort
[02:39] <nrg88> [03:24]  <jdong> nrg88: why can't KDE use gstreamer again?
[02:40] <crimsun> he may have said that for argument's sake
[02:40] <crimsun> I don't care what KDE4 and the next GNOME version use
[02:40] <Fujitsu> As far as I know, crimsun and jdong are independent entitie.
[02:40] <Fujitsu> *entities
[02:40] <crimsun> I end up supporting them all, which is why I'm unhappy.
[02:41] <nrg88> well, i asked jdong in the 1st time :)
[02:41] <Fujitsu> crimsun: Get Canonical to employ you or something.
[02:41] <nrg88> [03:36]  <nrg88> jdong: why does Gnome use ESD?
=== deep [n=deep@c-a52a71d5.017-19-626c671.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se]  has joined #ubuntu-motu
[02:42] <RAOF> Because gstreamer and pulseaudio try to do different things.
[02:43] <RAOF> & ESD, too.
[02:44] <nrg88> that means if a distro wants many multimedia apps to work on it, it has to include a lot of them
[02:45] <crimsun> welcome to $most_distros
[02:45] <bddebian> heh
[02:45] <LaserJock> minghua | crimsun: so was I wrong to reject that bug?
[02:45] <nrg88> and that means if a multimedia app wants to work on a lot of distros, it has to have a lot of plugins written, and maintained
[02:45] <crimsun> LaserJock: sorry, will read now
[02:45] <RAOF> nrg88: No, not really.  They can just have gstreamer, and be done with it :)
[02:46] <nrg88> but why doing all these stuff, when you can write a multimedia app using simple as pie code ( take a look at the example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonon_(KDE) ), and a distro including phonon and ONE multimedia backend
[02:46] <RAOF> Media apps shouldn't have to care about the underlying sound server (pulse, esd, jack)
[02:46] <nrg88> RAOF: then why do other projects bother/
[02:46] <nrg88> ?
[02:46] <RAOF> Because they're stupid :P
[02:46] <nrg88> pulseaudio, xine, esd, mplayer...
[02:46] <nrg88> :D
[02:46] <nrg88> you tell them
[02:46] <RAOF> Well, mplayer exists as an ffmpeg frontend, AFAICT
[02:47] <Fujitsu> We do need something unified, but there's no point writing a new one to do it.
[02:47] <RAOF> pulseaudio & ESD aren't media apps.
[02:47] <crimsun> nrg88: Phonon's not going to change that. It still will require some other backend.
[02:47] <RAOF> And xine was around before gstreamer
[02:47] <nrg88> RAOF: exactly that's what phonon is trying to do: so a multimedia app will not have to bother of the underlying sound server
[02:47] <RAOF> nrg88: But they can do that right now, with gstreamer.
[02:48] <zakame> good morning :)
[02:48] <minghua> LaserJock: technically not wrong, although maybe we can be a little more polite
[02:48] <RAOF> gstreamer has plugins for alsa, jack, pulseaudio, esd, oss, etc
[02:48] <LaserJock> minghua: oops, my bad
[02:48] <minghua> LaserJock: since it's an old bug
[02:48] <crimsun> LaserJock: IMO, the rejection is fine
[02:48] <LaserJock> minghua: I've been looking over lots of old silly bugs today. I might be getting a bit to terse
[02:48] <crimsun> LaserJock: we definitely won't be adding libxaw8*
[02:49] <minghua> LaserJock: your rejection message is good for a next-day rejection, an after-eight-months rejection, however...
[02:49] <RAOF> nrg88: They *still* have to assume that phonon is there, so they might as well just drop phonon and use gstreamer :)
[02:49] <minghua> let me add my two cents there
[02:49] <LaserJock> minghua: thanks
[02:49] <crimsun> err, there's nothing impolite about jordan's response
[02:50] <crimsun> it's flat, sure, but nothing that even comes close to raising CoC objections
[02:50] <LaserJock> well *that's* good
[02:50] <LaserJock> can't be having an CoC violations ;-)
[02:50] <nrg88> RAOF: then you tell the gnome devs to drop pulseaudio, and use gstreamer
[02:50] <crimsun> you want impolite? Look at Ron Lee's comments on wxwidgets2.5
[02:50] <RAOF> nrg88: But they're different things.
[02:50] <Fujitsu> It's just ludicrous to expect us to do stuff like that, LaserJock. Your reply was fine.
[02:50] <RAOF> Gstreamer doesn't do the same thing as pulseaudio
[02:51] <nrg88> phonon and gstreamer are different things too...
[02:51] <Fujitsu> crimsun: Where?
[02:51] <RAOF> nrg88: But not really.
[02:51] <nrg88> but yes :)
[02:51] <Fujitsu> nrg88: Isn't phonon just an alternate interface?
=== bddebian dances around the room...
[02:51] <RAOF> So, as I see it:  Phonon is a way of decoding & playing media files, yes?
[02:51] <nrg88> a new api
[02:51] <nrg88> a unified api for the most backends
[02:52] <RAOF> Let's ignore the backends for a moment, they're irrelevant.
[02:52] <RAOF> Phonon is about playing music & video, yes?
[02:52] <LaserJock> bddebian: what's up?
[02:52] <nrg88> is about using media
[02:52] <nrg88> yes
[02:52] <nrg88> it't not just for playing
[02:52] <RAOF> Ok.  So, this is exactly what gstreamer is about.  You even have pluggable backends.
[02:53] <bddebian> LaserJock: Just "watching" :)
[02:54] <nrg88> what is pulseaudio about?
[02:54] <RAOF> playing and recording PCM audio, and caching small audio samples.
[02:55] <nrg88> i thought gstreamer can do that too
[02:55] <nrg88> the gnome sound recordes is using gstreamer
[02:55] <RAOF> No.  Well, not the audio caching part.
=== Kamping_Kaiser [n=kgoetz@gnewsense/friend/kgoetz]  has joined #ubuntu-motu
[02:55] <Kamping_Kaiser> i'm having a problem building openoffice - can i ask about that here, or just file a bug?
[02:56] <RAOF> gstreamer isn't network-transparent, which is one of the features of pulseaudio
[02:56] <minghua> LaserJock: I added my comment
[02:57] <LaserJock> Kamping_Kaiser: I'm not sure how much help we'd be, but you can always ask
[02:57] <crimsun> Fujitsu: Debian 285186 is one of the more polite ones; with a bit of Googling, one can find less polite ones responding to people's continued "please package a new version of 2.5.blah"
[02:57] <ubotu> Debian bug 285186 in wxwidgets2.5 "FTBFS: powerpc" [Important,Closed]  http://bugs.debian.org/285186
[02:58] <LaserJock> ok, I'm on to texlive-*
[02:59] <Kamping_Kaiser> LaserJock, it fails with some error about gzip - http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/14650/ should i be filing a bug? i'm trying to rebuild with debug symbols because impress is crashing, and its hard to teach when no one can do work
[03:00] <Kamping_Kaiser> and would the bug get looked at is the other thing. i dont have a great history with bugs+dapper :/
[03:01] <Fujitsu> Kamping_Kaiser: I doubt (m)any of us have touched OOo.
[03:01] <Kamping_Kaiser> Fujitsu, :/ any suggestions for where to go?
[03:02] <nrg88> it's gettin really late :)
[03:02] <nrg88> 4 am
[03:02] <nrg88> :D
[03:02] <nrg88> well guys, thanks for the chat, i learned a lot of interesting facts today
[03:02] <joejaxx> hmm let me look
[03:03] <Fujitsu> crimsun: He sounds like a really pleasant guy.
=== fernando_ [n=fernando@189.0.136.139]  has joined #ubuntu-motu
[03:03] <crimsun> he certainly has strong opinions
[03:03] <Fujitsu> I noticed.
[03:03] <nrg88> who, me?
[03:04] <LaserJock> crimsun: didn't seem *that* bad :-)
[03:04] <LaserJock> nrg88: no
[03:04] <Fujitsu> nrg88: Ron Lee.
[03:04] <nrg88> :D
[03:04] <LaserJock> ok, I really want to close Bug #67441 as "Not a bug"
[03:04] <ubotu> Malone bug 67441 in texlive-base "What is added value of texlive packages vis--vis TeXLiveCD from TUG?" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/67441
[03:04] <Fujitsu> LaserJock: I've wanted to do that for a while.
[03:05] <Fujitsu> Please do.
[03:05] <nrg88> well, goodmorning, goodafternoon, goodnight, or whatever suits you ;)
[03:05] <joejaxx> :)
[03:05] <joejaxx> Goodnight nrg88 
[03:05] <Fujitsu> Good morning, nrg88.
[03:05] <Kamping_Kaiser> later nrg88 
[03:05] <nrg88> :)
[03:07] <Fujitsu> Bah.
[03:07] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: I'll try to do a bit better on this one
[03:10] <marcin_ant> I got malformed-prompt-in-templates warning from lintian could someone tell me where could I find some additional info what is a problem here?
=== minghua seems to have seen that 67441 before
[03:10] <Fujitsu> What are we meant to do about things like openhackware and proll? They try to build on i386 'cause they're arch all, but expect to be built on powerpc and sparc respectively. 
[03:11] <plugwash> why are they arch all if they are only buildable on one architecture?!
[03:12] <Fujitsu> Because the binaries are architecture independent. They're used in qemu as firmware.
[03:12] <Fujitsu> Or something like that.
[03:13] <Fujitsu> But they expect to be built on the right architecture, which doesn't work with source-only uploads.
[03:13] <minghua> are they useful on other arches?
=== plugwash wonders if an arch-all package that only builds on some architectures is really compliant with debian policies
[03:13] <Fujitsu> minghua: Yes, for qemu to emulate.
[03:14] <Fujitsu> openhackware is a PPC BIOS, so is really only going to be useful on non-PPC architectures.
[03:14] <minghua> so some package only useful for non-PPC arches but can only be built on PPC?
[03:15] <Fujitsu> That's correct.
[03:15] <Fujitsu> Potentially useful on PPC, but probably not the main use.
[03:15] <minghua> I think I am stumped
[03:15] <Fujitsu> Why?
[03:15] <plugwash> surely the correct soloution is to fix it to build on all architectures
[03:15] <minghua> try to persuade LP people to make soyuz accept binary uploads?
[03:16] <minghua> :-P
[03:16] <LaserJock> lol
[03:16] <bddebian> Have you read the bug information?  It's not meant to build on non-PPC archs
[03:16] <Fujitsu> plugwash: That's impossible, I believe.
[03:16] <Fujitsu> minghua: It does, just not from mortals.
[03:17] <minghua> oh.  try to pass that package through an immortal, then? :-)
[03:17] <Fujitsu> Ah, I hadn't seen the latest comment.
[03:18] <LaserJock> ok, Bug #67441 is now closed
[03:18] <ubotu> Malone bug 67441 in texlive-base "What is added value of texlive packages vis--vis TeXLiveCD from TUG?" [Undecided,Rejected]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/67441
[03:18] <Fujitsu> A month ago, and no action on infinity's part. :-/
[03:18] <bddebian> w00t, go LaserJock
=== Fujitsu checks LaserJock's response.
[03:19] <Fujitsu> Not bad.
[03:20] <LaserJock> we'll see
[03:20] <LaserJock> I'm just looking forward to the flames
[03:21] <Fujitsu> There might not be any.
[03:22] <LaserJock> I don't know, TeX seems like a gigantic mine field
[03:22] <bddebian> yep :)
[03:24] <joejaxx> woohoo
[03:25] <LaserJock> first I need to go talk to Norbert and see what to do with tex bugs in Ubuntu
=== joejaxx 's launch mirror grepper is working
[03:26] <Fujitsu> joejaxx: What's it for?
[03:26] <ScottK> Anyone here have any interest in the klamav package?  There are 8 recent SIGSEGV reports (since klamav was updated).  I can't reproduce it here and don't know enough about reading the crash reports to know where to start or if they are all dupes.
[03:26] <Fujitsu> LaserJock: How is his attitude towards Ubuntu
[03:27] <Fujitsu> *?
[03:27] <joejaxx> Fujitsu: well i am creating a script for an experimental download method that i am going to propose 
[03:27] <joejaxx> Fujitsu: ever heard of metalink?
[03:28] <Fujitsu> I have, yes. I know nothing about it, though.
[03:28] <joejaxx> yeah i wanted to have a working concept before i went and proposed this download method
[03:28] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: well, mixed, he's texlive upstream and Debian maintainer
[03:29] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: he's basically the only real person triaging tex in Ubuntu
[03:29] <LaserJock> which makes him not so happy
[03:29] <LaserJock> but he does do quite a bit on Launchpad so he's not totally turned off
[03:29] <LaserJock> my guess is he does it because he hates seeing his packages in bad shape
[03:29] <Fujitsu> Better than many of them.
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[03:44] <joejaxx> ok it is all finished except for the country problem
[03:46] <ScottK> What would I have to do to get the ability to set importance on bugs in launchpad? 
[03:46] <Fujitsu> ScottK: Become a member of ubuntu-qa.
[03:46] <ScottK> Thanks
=== ScottK investiages that.
[03:46] <LaserJock> or a MOTU
[03:46] <LaserJock> ;-)
[03:47] <Fujitsu> Darn.
[03:47] <bddebian> Better yet :-)
[03:47] <Fujitsu> kqemu is currently broken in Ubuntu because of an incompatible bochsbios. :(
=== ScottK is a long way away from becoming a MOTU.  ubuntu-qa may have lower standards.
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[03:48] <LaserJock> ScottK: pfft, you're a super start now :-)
[03:48] <LaserJock> *star
[03:49] <joejaxx> :)
[03:49] <bddebian> ScottK: You are doing fine
[03:50] <bddebian> I wouldn't say a long way
[03:50] <ScottK> OK.  
[03:51] <Fujitsu> ... why is there a `Screenshot' button all through the Etch graphical installer?
[03:51] <jdong> Fujitsu: I asked the same
[03:51] <jdong> Fujitsu: I thought it was pretty obnoxious ;-)
[03:52] <minghua> ...for making a screenshot?
[03:52] <joejaxx> hmm interesting
[03:53] <joejaxx> Fujitsu: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+cdmirrors-rss << they have this
[03:53] <Fujitsu> minghua: In the final? A little strange.
[03:53] <minghua> although I am indeed surprised that they didn't turn it off in formal releases
[03:53] <joejaxx> Fujitsu: but that does not have enough information
[03:53] <Fujitsu> joejaxx: That's the LP style.
[03:53] <Fujitsu> minghua: Exactly.
[03:53] <jdong> minghua: IMO it sounded like "OOH cool installer, n'est-ce pas? Click me, show me off to your friends!"
=== ajmitch returns
[03:54] <LaserJock> jdong: yep :-)
[03:54] <Fujitsu> The new graphical installer /is/ pretty nice, but the screenshot button is a little stupid.
[03:54] <Fujitsu> Hey ajmitch.
[03:54] <jdong> Fujitsu: I didn't feel one way or another about their GUI installer
[03:55] <jdong> Fujitsu: it just exposed the exact same options in the exact same way via a GUI
[03:55] <jdong> IMO it's no different in usability/functionality than the ncurses one
[03:55] <jdong> oh yeah... except it can do SCREENSHOTS
[03:55] <Fujitsu> But it's shiny!
[03:55] <joejaxx> :(
[03:55] <Fujitsu> (just as shiny as the Red Hat 7.0 one!)
[03:55] <jdong> Fujitsu: wake me up when it's 3D cube.
[03:55] <minghua> one important point of the GUI installer is that Debian supports quite a few languages in installation now
[03:55] <jdong> minghua: ah, ok, that's worthwhile
[03:55] <Fujitsu> Beryl built into the installer. I like it.
[03:56] <Fujitsu> minghua: That is a good thing.
[03:56] <joejaxx> Fujitsu: lol that is messed up
[03:56] <LaserJock> if I have 2 installers that do the same thing, I think I'd naturally go with the cooler looking one
[03:56] <joejaxx> LaserJock: yeah
[03:56] <ajmitch> LaserJock!
[03:56] <Fujitsu> LaserJock: Probably.
[03:57] <ScottK> Looks like ubuntu-qa is a shorter path.  I still wonder how I got the ability to reject other people's bugs.  That just seemed to show up one day.
[03:57] <joejaxx> ok it is almost done building the rawlist
=== DarkTeengeek [n=matt@h236.146.40.69.ip.alltel.net]  has joined #ubuntu-motu
[03:58] <LaserJock> my gosh, gnumeric is slick
=== ajmitch should fix some packages & file UVF requests :)
[03:59] <DarkTeengeek> hello
[03:59] <DarkTeengeek> oh wrong nick
[03:59] <LaserJock> ajmitch: yeah, even I've been busy :-)
[03:59] <ajmitch> LaserJock: it doesn't take much to be busier than I am
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[04:02] <white> Fujitsu: debian-melbourne ... answer and tell when it suits you :)
[04:02] <joejaxx> ok
[04:02] <joejaxx> here is the raw list
[04:02] <joejaxx> http://ubuntu.joejaxx.org/+cdmirrors-raw
[04:02] <joejaxx> i generated that from launchpad
[04:02] <Fujitsu> white: I've got the rest of the week off, so basically any time.
[04:03] <white> Fujitsu: great, same here so write that :)
[04:03] <Fujitsu> That I shall.
[04:03] <joejaxx> now i have to figure out the country field issue
[04:03] <ajmitch> white: the etch boozeup?
[04:03] <white> :)
[04:03] <Cybermatt> question how do packages built with checkinstall different from those made the hard way
=== ajmitch is still on the debian-melb list :)
[04:03] <white> anyone else around in melb?
[04:03] <Fujitsu> I probably won't be allowed to go, of course.
[04:03] <white> Fujitsu: i'll talk to your parents :)
[04:04] <LaserJock> Cybermatt: well, when you do it the "hard way" you get a real source package
[04:04] <Fujitsu> Cybermatt: They differ in that anybody mentioning checkinstall is likely to get destroyed within seconds.
[04:04] <joejaxx> Cybermatt: checkinstall is a discouraged way of making packages
=== Fujitsu energises the demolition beams.
[04:04] <LaserJock> Cybermatt: checkinstall basically "fakes it"
[04:04] <ajmitch> "hey Fujitsu's parents, $RANDOM_HACKER is saying it's ok to go out & get drunk over a distro release"
[04:04] <Cybermatt> oh
[04:04] <LaserJock> now, now
[04:04] <Cybermatt> hmm
[04:04] <Fujitsu> ajmitch: That'll definitely work.
[04:04] <white> ajmitch: you reckon it doesn't work?
[04:04] <joejaxx> Fujitsu: http://ubuntu.joejaxx.org/+cdmirrors-raw < is this grep'able for you now :P
[04:04] <ajmitch> white: you could try it..
[04:05] <white> what if we all catch up during the afternoon and get drunk then? (ok a bit random, but still)
[04:05] <white> i mean we've waited for that a long time :)
[04:05] <ajmitch> Cybermatt: checkinstall doesn't create a source package that is reproducable & rebuildable by others, so it can't go into the distro
[04:07] <Cybermatt> ok lol then ill slowly start makeing them the real way
[04:07] <LaserJock> you might want to take a look at the Ubuntu Packaging Guide
[04:07] <LaserJock> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/
[04:07] <Cybermatt> yes i should
[04:09] <Cybermatt> got  to get up early so i guess ill go now
[04:09] <ajmitch> checkinstall basically tars up the result of a build - source packages specify everything necessary to do the build in a clean system
=== Fujitsu notes it's probably a bit useless installing a Etch in crypto-LVM on a VM disk image that's on crypto-LVM.
[04:09] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: it could get a little slow
[04:09] <Fujitsu> ajmitch: Oh, it is.
[04:10] <Fujitsu> But at least the installer can do it... I must work on that for Feisty+1.
=== Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee]  has joined #ubuntu-motu
[04:10] <joejaxx> welcome back Hobbsee :)
[04:11] <RAOF> Heya Hobbsee :)
[04:11] <ajmitch> Hobbsee!
[04:12] <Hobbsee> heya joejaxx, RAOF 
[04:12] <Hobbsee> ajmitch!
[04:12] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: forgive my ignorance, but what's the point of crypto-LVM?
[04:12] <LaserJock> Hobbsee!
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[04:12] <Fujitsu> LaserJock: To be encrypted, of course.
[04:13] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: the whole filesystem? every file?
[04:13] <Hobbsee> LaserJock!
[04:13] <Fujitsu> The entire filesystem.
[04:13] <Fujitsu> Or if you do it on Debian, you can have the entire LVM VG encrypted.
=== RAOF thinks that might be interesting to investigate for his lappy
[04:14] <Fujitsu> I suppose it's possible in Ubuntu too, but would require a lot of manual hackery.
[04:14] <bddebian> Damn another mentor e-mail...
[04:14] <ScottK> Hobbsee: Would you have interest/time in looking at klamav bugs?  There are 8 sigsegv since it was synched and I can't reproduce it.
[04:14] <Hobbsee> urgh
[04:14] <Hobbsee> ScottK: not at the moment - maybe later
[04:14] <LaserJock> I don't really see the point of an encrypted filesystem in general, but it sure sounds nifty
=== Hobbsee doesnt really do klamav
[04:15] <ScottK> OK.  No risk of you knowing less than me.
[04:15] <Fujitsu> LaserJock: Do you want all of your data walking around everywhere accessible to all?
=== ScottK can see the point of encypted files systems for laptops.
[04:15] <RAOF> With desktops, less so, yeah.
[04:15] <joejaxx> LaserJock: for security
[04:16] <Fujitsu> ScottK: That's where I'm using it.
[04:16] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: ask siretart about cryptroot
[04:16] <joejaxx> Kamping_Kaiser: sensitive data :)
[04:16] <ajmitch> he's had it setup & working for awhile
[04:16] <Fujitsu> I had it working several months ago, but never got around to setting it up again. Plus it wasn't with LVM.
[04:16] <Kamping_Kaiser> joejaxx, ?
[04:16] <joejaxx> Kamping_Kaiser: gah
=== geser puts encrypted fs on his laptop on his TODO list
[04:17] <Fujitsu> I've just got my /home LV done now.
[04:17] <Fujitsu> It's pretty easy to do that.
[04:17] <joejaxx> Kamping_Kaiser: sorry about that <tab> completion :\
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[04:17] <Kamping_Kaiser> joejaxx, thought so :)
[04:17] <ajmitch> Kamping_Kaiser!
[04:17] <joejaxx> LaserJock: because of sensitive data
[04:17] <joejaxx> Kamping_Kaiser: :P
[04:17] <Kamping_Kaiser> :P
[04:18] <Fujitsu> Hm, my entire system seems to be lagging now... I guess two layers of crypto (one in kqemu) and installing Debian don't go together to give low resource consumption.
[04:19] <LaserJock> joejaxx: yeah, I just an't imagine needing to do that for a huge extent
[04:19] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: nest the  VMs!
[04:19] <joejaxx> LaserJock: i guess it depends on the level of paranoia
[04:20] <Fujitsu> ajmitch: Sounds great!
[04:20] <LaserJock> well, I have paranoia
[04:20] <Fujitsu> I'll turn off kqemu too.
[04:20] <joejaxx> LaserJock: you can have the whole drive encrypted
=== RAOF likes cdparanoia :P
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[04:20] <LaserJock> just usually end up forgeting things and getting really screwed
[04:20] <joejaxx> LaserJock: and boot from usb key/cdrom
=== Fujitsu drops a rock on RAOF.
[04:20] <ajmitch> joejaxx: and boot from a USB stick, if the BIOS supports it
[04:20] <joejaxx> ajmitch: yeap :)
[04:20] <ajmitch> sadly my laptop BIOS doesn't
[04:20] <joejaxx> wow that stinks :\
[04:20] <LaserJock> like the time I changed my OS X password and forgot it roughly 10 seconds latter
[04:20] <joejaxx> ajmitch: what about cdrom?
[04:20] <Fujitsu> I should probably organise that at some point... Much nicer.
[04:21] <joejaxx> LaserJock: :\
[04:21] <ajmitch> sure, but that's rather a crap way to boot
[04:21] <joejaxx> ajmitch: yeah true
[04:21] <joejaxx> well i guess if you carry arond a business sized cdrom
[04:21] <ajmitch> usb stick is much smaller, and I carry a 2GB one on my keyring
[04:21] <joejaxx> Fujitsu: yeah it is
[04:21] <Fujitsu> When I was running Debian, I had the LUKS key on a USB stick which I carried around, and a little script to check for it on boot. Worked well.
[04:21] <LaserJock> I guess I just don't put that much sensitive stuff on my computer
[04:22] <ajmitch> LaserJock: gpg & ssh keys?
[04:22] <LaserJock> I have one file for passwords, gpg, ssh
[04:22] <LaserJock> but why would i need an encrypted FS for that?
=== Fujitsu decides to run a performance test on the crypted /home once the install has finished.
[04:23] <LaserJock> but for sure, if your work demands security it makes sense
[04:23] <Fujitsu> I'd like to know just how much of a performance hit it gives...
[04:23] <joejaxx> Fujitsu: i am setting up etch+encrypted+selinux
[04:23] <joejaxx> :)
[04:24] <LaserJock> then unplug the ethernet cable and turn off any wifi cards
[04:24] <LaserJock> :-)
[04:24] <ajmitch> joejaxx: it shouldn't be too much of a challenge to get that working
[04:24] <Fujitsu> I've never dealt with SELinux before... How hard is it to set up on Debian?
[04:24] <joejaxx> of course i forgot when i went to do yabootconfig --kernel-args "selinux=1 audit=1 enforcing=1" that the drive was encrypted lol
[04:25] <joejaxx> Fujitsu: well with the default policies 7 minutes
[04:25] <Fujitsu> Not bad.
[04:25] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: simple enough
[04:25] <nixternal> can you still chroot into encrypted partitions in case of an emergency with ease?
[04:25] <ajmitch> it *ought* to be that simple on ubuntu
[04:25] <Fujitsu> I wonder if cjwatson would be averse to adding an extra option to Ubiquity for doing crypto.
[04:25] <LaserJock> what does selinux do?
[04:26] <joejaxx> apt-get selinux-basics && patch the necessary files && `fixfiles relabel`
[04:26] <LaserJock> I remember Fedora having it an it being a pain in the butt
[04:26] <Fujitsu> nixternal: Yes, you just need the cryptsetup package and to know the key.
[04:26] <joejaxx> oh and do not forget to do check-selinux-installation
[04:26] <ajmitch> LaserJock: mandatory access control - programs run in security domains & users have specific roles
[04:26] <ajmitch> LaserJock: FC2 or so? :)
[04:26] <LaserJock> yeah
[04:26] <nixternal> ya, it would be nice to encrypt at least my /home directory
[04:26] <joejaxx> then reboot after you add the kernel args to yaboot /grub
[04:26] <LaserJock> last of my RedHat/Fedora experience
[04:26] <ajmitch> LaserJock: that gave selinux a bad name for a long time
[04:27] <ajmitch> a strict policy, on by default, that broke the world
[04:27] <LaserJock> yeah
[04:27] <ajmitch> to do simple things like adding user roles you had to recompile the whole policy
[04:27] <joejaxx> Fujitsu: all that takes me about 7 minutes the thing that takes the most time is the file labeling ie `fixfiles relabel`
[04:27] <ajmitch> things have improved a bit :)
[04:27] <LaserJock> I was like "What the heck is this selinux thing and why the heck won't my computer work?"
[04:28] <nixternal> I got to see a great demo of FC7 yesterday. Their artwork is stellar, GDM and KDM logins look great, and if you have the fingerprint scanner, it will prompt you to either enter a password for your username or ask you to swipe your finger
[04:28] <LaserJock> ajmitch: does it do anything for the home user?
[04:28] <joejaxx> ajmitch: i did not know they included the refpolicy-targeted by default in etch
[04:28] <Fujitsu> The latter is easy to do in Ubuntu too.
[04:28] <nixternal> otherwise, it was the same exact GNOME and KDE (icons and color) they have used from day one
[04:28] <joejaxx> i was surprised with that
[04:28] <Fujitsu> LaserJock: security++
[04:29] <ajmitch> LaserJock: sure
[04:29] <LaserJock> hmm
[04:29] <ajmitch> LaserJock: not nearly as useful as for servers
=== ajmitch should probably fix up some more selinux stuff for universe in feisty
[04:29] <Fujitsu> ajmitch: Isn't it getting fairly late for that?
=== bddebian should probably do "something"
[04:30] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: universe, simple fixes
[04:30] <ajmitch> most of what we need is already there from debian
[04:30] <joejaxx> yeap
[04:30] <Fujitsu> Oh, good. So it's not stuff that has been blacklisted for some reason.
[04:30] <ajmitch> no
[04:31] <ajmitch> why do you think it's been blacklisted?
[04:31] <Fujitsu> No idea.
=== Fujitsu is just crazy.
[04:32] <joejaxx> :P
[04:32] <ajmitch> yep
=== ajmitch waits *patiently* for launchpad
[04:32] <Fujitsu> ajmitch: Any ETA on the comments field?
[04:33] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: no. don't ask for one
[04:33] <Fujitsu> I shall not, then.
[04:33] <ajmitch> good
=== ajmitch has had time to come home, eat lunch while talking on irc
[04:34] <joejaxx> qemu powerpc emulation is broken on ubuntu
[04:34] <joejaxx> :\
[04:34] <ajmitch> joejaxx: fix it
[04:34] <Fujitsu> joejaxx: There's a lack of BIOS... Is that all?
[04:34] <joejaxx> Fujitsu: yeah i think that is the case
[04:34] <joejaxx> openhackware does not have any binaries
[04:35] <Fujitsu> That's the openhackware stuff I was talking about a couple of hours ago.
[04:35] <joejaxx> it is just a source package in universe
[04:35] <joejaxx> Fujitsu: ah i did not see that conversation
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[04:36] <bddebian> LaserJock: New tex bug for ya ;-P
[04:36] <ScottK> bddebian: If you are looking for 'something', you could go fix the klamav sigsegv while Hobbsee is busy elsewhere...
[04:37] <bddebian> Notice I said "should" do something :-)
[04:37] <joejaxx> Fujitsu: i also have yet to find a way around the grub-loop-of-death on qemu-system-x86_64 with the debian-installer
[04:38] <ajmitch> bddebian: ok, go & do something
=== bddebian goes to play Oblivion
[04:39] <ajmitch> s/something/something useful/
[04:39] <joejaxx> bddebian: haha
[04:39] <joejaxx> :P
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[04:53] <LaserJock> bddebian: I wish I knew what the heck any of that apport stuff meant
[04:53] <ajmitch> something broke
[04:53] <bddebian> Yeah, you and me both :-)
[04:53] <LaserJock> yeah, now I just get like 4 times as many bug emails
[04:53] <Fujitsu> ajmitch: What did?
[04:54] <Fujitsu> Oh.
[04:54] <Fujitsu> I see.
[04:54] <LaserJock> and I still don't get anything out of it
[04:54] <crimsun> maybe we need a class on reading traces
[04:55] <LaserJock> that would be wonderful
[04:55] <bddebian> YEAH
[04:55] <LaserJock> I feel bad because it looks like a lot is being done
[04:55] <LaserJock> but it's pretty much useless for me
[04:55] <ajmitch> crimsun: reading the auguries?
[04:56] <bddebian> I've felt that way with Hurd for about 4 years now LaserJock :)
[04:56] <ajmitch> who wants to reply nicely to bug 104637?
[04:56] <ubotu> Malone bug 104637 in pyparsing "pyparsing 1.4.5 released in dec 06" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/104637
[04:57] <StevenK> ajmitch: With the reply being "Bite us, we're releasing" ?
[04:57] <bddebian> hehe
[04:57] <ajmitch> StevenK: that would have been my reply, hence why I was asking others...
[04:58] <StevenK> ajmitch: I figured, I just wanted to see if we were thinking along the same lines. :-)
[04:59] <LaserJock> I can do it if nobody wants to
[04:59] <superm1> crimsun, that class would be incredibly useful :)
[04:59] <LaserJock> I'm on a roll :-)
[05:00] <ajmitch> LaserJock: thanks :)
[05:00] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: do it as well as i did that fool of a bug about cookies
[05:00] <welshbyte> LaserJock: "ajmitch told me to tell you..." :)
[05:01] <StevenK> Fetched 482MB in 60s (8021kB/s)
[05:01] <bddebian> hehe
[05:01] <bddebian> !packagingguide
[05:01] <ubotu> The packaging guide is at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html - See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/New for information on getting a package integrated into Ubuntu - Other developer resources are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources - See also !backports
[05:04] <LaserJock> ajmitch: done
[05:05] <ajmitch> LaserJock: thank you sir
=== bddebian probably scares away another mentee
[05:05] <LaserJock> welshbyte: "Don't me make summon ajmitch, kthxbye"
[05:05] <welshbyte> hehe
[05:05] <ajmitch> hm
[05:06] <ajmitch> people seem to think I'm mean & nasty
[05:06] <ajmitch> that's hardly fair
[05:06] <LaserJock> "What do you want, ajmitch or Hobbsee's stick of DOOM?"
[05:06] <bddebian> I think you are all snuggly ;-P
[05:06] <Hobbsee> hehe
[05:06] <ajmitch> bddebian: yeah I'd rather be mean & nasty than have you think that...
[05:06] <bddebian> heh
[05:06] <ajmitch> uh oh, Hobbsee's here
=== ajmitch hides
=== Hobbsee pokes ajmitch a few times with the DoomStick
[05:07] <ajmitch> ouch!
[05:07] <ajmitch> finally, we'll have the chance to get Hobbsee in spain
[05:07] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: indeed....
[05:08] <LaserJock> I don't think they'll let her take the DoomStick on the plane
[05:08] <ajmitch> yay
[05:08] <LaserJock> mwuahaha
[05:08] <ajmitch> LaserJock: careful, she'll still tickle & poke you
=== Hobbsee muhahahaha's
[05:08] <LaserJock> hmm
[05:08] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: found that out the hard way
[05:08] <bddebian> hah
=== LaserJock packs his anti-tickle suit
[05:08] <welshbyte> has either pysupport or pycentral become the preferred one yet?
=== Hobbsee will have an evil twin, though, to help
[05:09] <bddebian> Ubuntu seems to favor pycentral from what I've seen but I'm a moron
[05:09] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: oh really?
[05:09] <LaserJock> bddebian: well, yeah, doko wrote it
[05:09] <Fujitsu> welshbyte: I believe the battle still rages, though more seem to use pysupport.
[05:09] <welshbyte> ok, thanks
[05:10] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: elkbuntu 
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[05:10] <StevenK> Linda uses pysupport because it doesn't suck as much as pycentral
[05:10] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: elkbuntu is rather restrained compared to you
[05:10] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: hmph
=== ajmitch met elkbuntu at the last UDS, remember?
=== Hobbsee contemplates not coming to uds...
[05:10] <ajmitch> hah
[05:11] <Hobbsee> yes, but she wasnt with me then
[05:11] <bddebian> WTH is an elkbuntu?
[05:11] <LaserJock> I met elkbuntu and ajmitch at the last UDS
[05:11] <ajmitch> bddebian: elkbuntu is in this channel...
[05:11] <bddebian> I see that
[05:11] <Fujitsu> She's Hobbsee's eviler clone, of course.
[05:12] <LaserJock> StevenK: how so?
=== RAOF , still marking, marvels at "4x9x5 = 49"
[05:12] <Hobbsee> RAOF: *grin*
[05:12] <Hobbsee> RAOF: i marked some of my friend's maths papers for her yr 8 class....they had some similar...interesting...answers.
[05:12] <welshbyte> obviously thought the first x was a + :)
[05:12] <Fujitsu> RAOF: That's really great!
[05:13] <ajmitch> "what is six times nine?"
[05:13] <RAOF> 42!
[05:13] <welshbyte> 42
[05:13] <Fujitsu> 42, obviously.
[05:13] <welshbyte> hehe
[05:13] <ajmitch> how to tell you're in a room full of geeks
[05:13] <LaserJock> RAOF: it's obvious, 9x5 = 45 the second 4x actually switches operation by the property of transmutation to 4+ henc 4+45=49, QED
[05:13] <jdong> RAOF: haha at least you don't have kids like me giving you sarcastic responses :D
[05:13] <Hobbsee> 42!!!
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[05:13] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: what base?
[05:14] <Fujitsu> ajmitch: 13, I believe.
[05:14] <ajmitch> :)
=== Fujitsu checks.
[05:14] <Fujitsu> ... no, that's something else.
[05:14] <ajmitch> no, it is
[05:14] <StevenK> LaserJock: pysupport will cope with modules installed into the "system" directories, whereas pycentral wants them under /usr/share/python-central. I think.
[05:14] <ajmitch> 13x4+2
[05:15] <StevenK> LaserJock: pysupport struck me as more polished, too.
[05:15] <Fujitsu> So it is. I never was good with converting to strange bases at a moment's notice.
[05:15] <LaserJock> StevenK: I think it's the other way around
[05:15] <RAOF> I concur with LaserJock.
[05:16] <RAOF> Having recently read the new debian python policy (again) while trying to deal with democracyplayer
[05:16] <StevenK> Hrrrm.
=== Fujitsu consults the MOTU collective on the matter of kqemu's brokenness.
=== RAOF will eventually internalise the python policy
[05:16] <StevenK> Maybe I am remembering wrongly.
[05:17] <Fujitsu> It needs a new BIOS (it currently gets it from bochs) or some kernels panic.
[05:17] <StevenK> Maybe it's because pycentral wants that damn XB-Python-Version crap in the control file
[05:17] <Fujitsu> StevenK: But added control fields is FUN.
[05:17] <RAOF> Policy says "please add that regardless" :)
[05:17] <StevenK> The Python Policy can bite me.
[05:18] <Fujitsu> RAOF: Does it? I thought that was frowned upon these days.
=== ajmitch is going to head out & (hopefully) talk to someone about an ubuntu spec
[05:18] <Fujitsu> ajmitch: Bye! It really is quite a small world.
[05:18] <LaserJock> LDAP?
[05:18] <bddebian> ajmitch: Finally read sharms? ;-P
[05:18] <ajmitch> LaserJock: yeah
[05:18] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: if your from the AU/NZ end of the world
[05:18] <LaserJock> cool
[05:18] <ajmitch> bddebian: uh what?
[05:19] <ajmitch> LaserJock: yeah, chaks who came into the channel last night, doing a masters project at uni
[05:19] <ajmitch> I'll see what overlap there is with current work done
=== ajmitch knows his project supervisor fairly well
[05:21] <ajmitch> hm
[05:21] <ajmitch> I wonder where  my laptop power supply has gone to
[05:21] <LaserJock> I need to get a new one for mine :(
[05:23] <ajmitch> mine is hopefully around the flat somewhere
[05:23] <ajmitch> either that or it's at work
[05:26] <LaserJock> and my battery is pretty much toast
[05:26] <LaserJock> it's about 3 years old
[05:27] <ajmitch> ah, mine is a bit over a year old
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[05:28] <ajmitch> ok, found it :)
[05:31] <ajmitch> hm, no response to the text message yet
[05:31] <ajmitch> it might need to wait until some other time
[05:33] <StevenK> Geeez.
[05:33] <StevenK> Etch is almost out
[05:33] <ajmitch> almost out?
[05:33] <Fujitsu> StevenK: It is out...
[05:33] <ajmitch> it was out > 12 hours ago
[05:33] <StevenK> "in the hands of the SRMs" from -devel-announce
[05:33] <Fujitsu> Has been for aagges.
[05:34] <ajmitch> http://lists.debian.org/debian-announce/debian-announce-2007/msg00002.html
[05:35] <Fujitsu> Apr 08 22:53:30 ---     aba has changed the topic to: Mission accomplished
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[05:37] <ajmitch> StevenK: ie, you're long overdue to start drinking
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[05:38] <StevenK> Debian forced me to drink long ago.
[05:38] <LaserJock> any excuse ;-)
=== ajmitch wonders what the person in bug 104652 would have for their sources.list
=== ajmitch pokes ubotu 
[05:39] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: lots of crack.
[05:39] <ubotu> Malone bug 104652 in update-manager "sysvinit prevents system from an upgrade" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/104652
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[05:54] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: want to translate bug 104655 for me please? :)
[05:54] <ubotu> Malone bug 104655 in firefox " " [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/104655
[05:55] <ajmitch> my russian flatmate is out of town for a few days
[05:55] <crimsun> #ubuntu-ru ?
[05:56] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: heh
[05:56] <Hobbsee> nope
[05:57] <LaserJock> ok, my karma *better* go up after today
[05:58] <crimsun> karma chaser!
[05:58] <LaserJock> crimsun: hehe
[05:58] <LaserJock> you know me
[05:59] <LaserJock> wahoo, that's the first time I've ever seen https://launchpad.net/~laserjock/+karma be all from the same day
[05:59] <welshbyte> same again tomorrow?
[05:59] <LaserJock> ugg, no
[05:59] <welshbyte> :)
[05:59] <ajmitch> LaserJock: well done :)
[05:59] <LaserJock> gotta work on other stuff tomorrow
[06:00] <LaserJock> I have a department seminar to give Wednesday
[06:00] <ajmitch> my karma page probably still shows stuff from last year
[06:00] <LaserJock> and I still need to finish some research to start writing it
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[06:00] <LaserJock> ajmitch: not hardly
[06:01] <ajmitch> LaserJock: I don't touch ubuntu, usually
=== ajmitch wonders why his sync request didn't get through
[06:07] <ajmitch> I guess LP decided that bugs I file aren't worth it
[06:07] <Fujitsu> How does geser manage to do so much? He's got the most uploads, the most bug karma... He must have a few clones.
[06:07] <ajmitch> he spends less time on irc
[06:07] <crimsun> if I were doing golden pony awards, he'd be my pick
[06:07] <crimsun> *cough*
[06:09] <crimsun> Adri2000: LOCK doodle merge.
=== ajmitch files a sync manually, since LP hates me
[06:09] <Fujitsu> crimsun: An advanced locking system you have there.
[06:09] <ajmitch> (no new upstream version for this one)
[06:10] <crimsun> Fujitsu: yeah, harkens back to the wiki days
[06:10] <crimsun> come to think of it, we used it for X.Org, too ;)
[06:10] <ajmitch> back laterish
[06:10] <Fujitsu> Bye ajmitch.
[06:12] <LaserJock> crimsun: noted ;-)
[06:13] <crimsun> O:-)
[06:15] <Hobbsee> yeah, thought i remembered seeing that for X.Org
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[06:31] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: about that update-manager bug?
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[06:33] <crimsun> has there been an announcement about upload.ubuntu.com's host downtime?
[06:33] <crimsun> or ftp service on that machine being disabled?
[06:37] <StevenK> crimsun: It's the canonical sysadmins going "Release Feisty now. We dare you!"
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[06:37] <crimsun> must be :-)
[06:37] <StevenK> crimsun: :-)
[06:38] <elkbuntu> Fujitsu, if that's the case, I'm a pretty inaccurate clone
[06:39] <RAOF> Hm, another gem from 1st year algebra marking: "(1/2(e^ix + e^-ix))^4=(1/2e^ix+e^-ix)^4"
[06:45] <Hobbsee> RAOF: heh
[06:45] <elkbuntu> haha
=== RAOF wonders whether 1st years ever *read* what they write in tests.
[06:49] <Hobbsee> clearly not
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[07:34] <RAOF> Why does audacity Suggest: liblame-dev?  Can't it link to the versioned .so like everyone else?
[07:35] <LaserJock> so many questions
[07:35] <nixternal> haha
[07:36] <Fujitsu> RAOF: It's special, I suppose.
[07:36] <Fujitsu> I love special packages.
[07:37] <RAOF> Oh, well.  One ubuntu+1 support request down :)
[07:44] <welshbyte> blimey, cdbs is magic
[07:44] <minghua> debhelper is magic.  cdbs is _black_ magic
[07:44] <minghua> :-P
=== RAOF has gone trawling through some cdbs rules files.  minghua is right :)
[07:46] <welshbyte> i've just packaged a project of mine using a 5 line rules file :)
[07:46] <RAOF> Hey, Hobbsee, you're a Kubuntuite, right?  Is apport enabled in Kubutu?  There's someone in #ubuntu+1 trying to file a crash-report bug on last.fm
[07:47] <Fujitsu> welshbyte: That's fairly long compared to some I've seen.
[07:47] <RAOF> 1 line for the shebang, and a couple of cdbs includes. :)
[07:47] <welshbyte> the extra lines were because it's a python project and needed a couple of patches
[07:47] <LaserJock> I've seen 1 and 2 liners
[07:47] <LaserJock> I've also seen like 50 liners
[07:48] <LaserJock> if it plays nice they are soo easy
[07:49] <Hobbsee> RAOF: yes, and i think so
[07:49] <Fujitsu> My debian package has 4 non-comment lines.
[07:49] <LaserJock> hmm, I suppose a gdm session segfaulting isn't a great thing
[07:50] <Fujitsu> Probably not!
[07:51] <LaserJock> and my test user doesn't log in
[07:51] <LaserJock> excellent
[07:51] <LaserJock> why in the world would that happen
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[07:55] <LaserJock> well, Hobbsee should like this one
[07:55] <LaserJock> I can log into KDE, but not Gnome
[07:56] <Hobbsee> haha
[07:56] <Hobbsee> nice
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[07:56] <LaserJock> although it's not cool that I can log into Gnome with a fresh user
[07:56] <LaserJock> *can't
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[08:04] <Fujitsu> LaserJock: Check the your lo is up.
[08:05] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: looks good to me
[08:06] <LaserJock> why would KDE work and Gnome not, grrr
[08:12] <LaserJock> darn, this isn't good
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[08:13] <LaserJock> I wonder if I log out if I'll be able to get back in
[08:14] <Fujitsu> Probably not.
[08:15] <LaserJock> way uncool
=== AstralJava reads his bug email folder.... thanks a million ajmitch! :)
[08:18] <jussi01> LaserJock, I know you have waaay more knowledge and I havent seen some of the convo, but I had that problem... it was something about 2 xorgs or something... it was ages back and i cant really remember
[08:18] <LaserJock> hmm
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[08:23] <imbrandon> re
[08:27] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: it's telling you that you need to switch to kde
[08:30] <jussi01> lol
[08:31] <LaserJock> ok, well I don't know what that was all about
[08:31] <LaserJock> but a restart fixed
[08:33] <LaserJock> hi imbrandon 
[08:34] <jussi01> hehe
[08:38] <imbrandon> heya LaserJock 
[08:38] <imbrandon> hrm if you set a static ip in /etc/network/interfaces you must set a gateway correct >?
[08:38] <imbrandon> e.g. not just a ip/netmask
[08:40] <jussi01> can i ask a random question, just if someone knows?
[08:40] <imbrandon> no i dont have blue eyes.
[08:41] <jussi01> lol... can someone please fix bug 102675  ??
[08:41] <ubotu> Malone bug 102675 in netbase "Feisty boot hangs on "Configuring network interfaces"" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/102675
[08:41] <LaserJock> imbrandon: I think you need a gateway
[08:41] <LaserJock> imbrandon: I always do ip/netmask/gateway/dns
=== jussi01 slaps the bug
[08:41] <imbrandon> LaserJock, right
[08:41] <imbrandon> thats what i thought
[08:45] <Fujitsu> jussi01: That's nothing to do with us, fortunately.
[08:48] <jussi01> sadly...
[08:49] <jussi01> Fujitsu, who is responsible that bug ?
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=== ajmitch returns
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[09:00] <jekil> hello
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[09:31] <siretart> Fujitsu: ajmitch: cryptroot? - according to the tons of lp bugs about it, I'd say its pretty broken in edgy and feisty
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[09:31] <Fujitsu> siretart: That's what I'd have thought.
[09:31] <Fujitsu> I might see what I can do for Feisty+1.
[09:32] <crimsun> siretart: anything we can do in the next week to get it ready?
[09:32] <ajmitch> hi siretart 
[09:32] <crimsun> I see it's fairly popular
[09:32] <siretart> hi Fujitsu crimsun & ajmitch 
[09:32] <crimsun> hi
[09:33] <siretart> crimsun: yesterday, I tried to setup a system to reproduce it, and test some patches filed in lp
[09:33] <siretart> crimsun: bug #104595 is the result
[09:33] <ubotu> Malone bug 104595 in mdadm "qemu image with root on lvm on md fails to boot" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/104595
[09:33] <crimsun> ah
[09:33] <siretart> I'd suggest to use that qemu image as a start
[09:34] <ajmitch> siretart: is that with cryptroot or not?
[09:34] <siretart> ajmitch: no, it has "plain" root on lvm on md
[09:34] <ajmitch> I thought & hoped that lvm/md boot bugs were fixed now :(
[09:34] <Fujitsu> How does md manage to be so flaky with Edgy/Feisty?
[09:34] <Fujitsu> Is it upstart?
[09:34] <crimsun> there appear to be a bevy of those sort of bugs
[09:34] <Fujitsu> Hm.
[09:34] <siretart> ajmitch: but the vg has 5 gig free, so it should be pretty straightforward to create another lv, crypt it and boot from it
[09:35] <Fujitsu> Was it all OK in Dapper?
[09:35] <crimsun> I know I'm experiencing just one of them (where initramfs/udev are way too fast for the SATA controller)
[09:35] <Fujitsu> crimsun: Get a slower machine. Duh.
[09:35] <crimsun> buy me one kthx
[09:35] <siretart> Fujitsu: I persume so. dapper didn't have upstart and this async udev/devmapper/foo startup concept
[09:36] <ajmitch> siretart: I thought it was just udev/initramfs/kernel racing, before upstart got its hands on the system?
[09:36] <Fujitsu> You have to blame upstart for it too, ajmitch.
[09:37] <ajmitch> I do?
[09:37] <siretart> ajmitch: upstart broke cryptsetup with its logging. so we had funny bugs like no prompt for password at all, or password printed on screen (later)
[09:37] <Fujitsu> It is a combination of upstart and the new initramfs funny stuff.
[09:37] <Fujitsu> And usplash in parts.
[09:38] <siretart> ajmitch: usplash causes other funny bugs: if I prompt for a password in usplash, and the user switches the vt without entering the password, you cannot switch back to enter your pw
[09:38] <Fujitsu> What is the benefit of the new device-mapper initramfs stuff that causes this?
[09:38] <siretart> short: the fact that cryptsetup isn't in main is very very unfurtunate. this way nobody cares about crypted filesystems
[09:39] <siretart> perhaps we should make a spec for it in sevilla
[09:39] <Fujitsu> I'd love to have it properly supported for Feisty+1.
[09:39] <siretart> same here
[09:39] <Fujitsu> Speaking of which, we should have a name for that in the next few days.
[09:40] <siretart> I 'fixed' the cryptsetup/usplash part by making the cryptsetup script to terminate usplash altogether
[09:41] <Fujitsu> I noticed that, and turned it back on locally.
[09:42] <ajmitch> I hope we have a name soon
[09:42] <Fujitsu> It was 8 days before release last time.
[09:42] <ajmitch> well we're getting close
[09:42] <Fujitsu> Yeah, T-10 now.
[09:43] <Fujitsu> T-10... I forgot we were that close.
[09:44] <ajmitch> start fixing stuff faster
=== Fujitsu is no good at fixing things, unfortunately.
[09:44] <siretart> I've been calling it goofy as intermediate name ;)
[09:44] <siretart> err, interim
[09:45] <crimsun> I'm going through the RC bug list, but upload.ubuntu.com's ftpd seems down :\
[09:45] <Fujitsu> crimsun: The rest of it seems to be up.
[09:45] <Fujitsu> Hm.
[09:45] <crimsun> I've poked in #canonical-sysadmin, but I have no idea if that's the correct channel
[09:45] <ajmitch> crimsun: oh dear
[09:46] <Fujitsu> crimsun: That's the right one.
[09:46] <ajmitch> what a time for infrastructure to be falling over
[09:46] <Fujitsu> drescher/Soyuz is sooooo reliable.
[09:47] <crimsun> must have eaten too many easter sweets
[09:47] <Fujitsu> Probably so.
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[10:03] <imbrandon> re
[10:04] <crimsun> re
[10:04] <ajmitch> hi imbrandon 
[10:04] <imbrandon> heya ajmitch 
[10:04] <superm1> hey imbrandon 
[10:05] <imbrandon> man i'm like this >< close to calling canonical and getting a ubuntu support contract
[10:05] <crimsun> you totally should. And then get them to swing me a pony. :-)
[10:05] <imbrandon> damn network guys here cant figure out the vlan stuff and i'm no network guru on top level stuff
[10:05] <Fujitsu> imbrandon: Why?
[10:05] <Fujitsu> Hah.
[10:06] <imbrandon> crimsun, hehe
[10:07] <imbrandon> i guess they are trying to trunk 50+ vlans to one nic
[10:07] <imbrandon> and its choking
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[10:07] <imbrandon> heh
[10:09] <ajmitch> you think canonical will be able to help there?
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[10:10] <Fujitsu> They will use their superpowers to increase the bandwidth.
[10:10] <crimsun> I think you guys need a CCNA or CCIE
[10:10] <imbrandon> probably not, other than "wtf mang?" but atlweasrte its them and not me telling them they are stupid
[10:10] <imbrandon> crimsun, my words exactly
[10:10] <imbrandon> we have 4+ CCNA's on staff
[10:10] <Fujitsu> I think CCNP/CCIE, not CCNA.
[10:11] <Fujitsu> Only minimal VLAN stuff is in CCNA.
[10:11] <imbrandon> and they still want to do this on a linux box
[10:11] <imbrandon> point is cisco has this down pat
[10:12] <StevenK> Sigh.
[10:12] <StevenK> Linux, with a good enough NIC and a nice backplane can do anything a Cisco can.
[10:13] <StevenK> Give me four PCI-X Intel e1000's on a good server motherboard and Dapper. :-)
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[10:13] <crimsun> imbrandon: feel like flying someone from .au over? ;-)
[10:13] <StevenK> Bwahaha
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[10:14] <StevenK> imbrandon: The number of VLANs more than likely isn't an issue.
[10:14] <StevenK> imbrandon: It might be bus or network bandwidth that is.
[10:14] <imbrandon> crimsun, heheh
=== StevenK has his own problems at the moment.
[10:15] <StevenK> Some silly Broadcom network adapter isn't being picked up the dapper modules.
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[10:16] <imbrandon> thats ok at home my intel nic thats 10/100/1000 works perfect in 10 or 100 but not when hoooked to a 1000 switch :) ( but i know the switch works ok with 1000 because of other boxen  on it )
[10:16] <imbrandon> at home ^^
[10:17] <imbrandon> it gets link and an ip in 1000, but wont recieve packets
[10:17] <StevenK> Cheap gigabit switch?
[10:17] <imbrandon> fun fun fun
[10:17] <imbrandon> yea
[10:17] <StevenK> That might have something to do with it. :_)
[10:17] <imbrandon> netgear $30 100/1000 swe
[10:17] <imbrandon> ;)
[10:17] <imbrandon> most likely
[10:18] <StevenK> Why oh why do people continue to use Netgear things and expect their network to go quickly?
[10:18] <Laser_away> why not? :-)
[10:18] <StevenK> Because Netgear is crap
[10:18] <Fujitsu> Laser_away: Sleep!
[10:18] <imbrandon> because their routers/switches are pretty like apple design ?
[10:18] <Fujitsu> StevenK: Nah, they're the best.
[10:18] <imbrandon> hehe
[10:18] <crimsun> Fujitsu: he's busy fixing universe, yay
[10:19] <StevenK> imbrandon: Apple design is crap too
[10:19] <imbrandon> but it looks nice ( IMHO )
[10:19] <imbrandon> lol
[10:19] <crimsun> actually, I guess one can interpret StevenK's "go quickly" as "go quickly into the trash"
[10:20] <StevenK> imbrandon: Okay, if looking nice is the only criteria, then don't complain about your network being crap.
[10:21] <StevenK> Hrm. Crap. The PCI ID doesn't appear in the driver.
[10:22] <imbrandon> StevenK, :)
[10:22] <StevenK> Hrm. The thing appears to be a Tigon3.
[10:26] <superm1> imbrandon, did you happen to get that other server up and running on saturday?
[10:30] <imbrandon> yea the servers are up and loaded, the switch isnt in place yet though
[10:30] <imbrandon> so no network
[10:30] <superm1> imbrandon, k
[10:31] <jussi01> crimsun, any luck with the uploads?
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[10:31] <Fujitsu> jussi01: It's still down.
[10:33] <jussi01> :(
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[10:36] <nrg88> happy easter :)
[10:36] <StevenK> Okay. tg3 manages to oops the machine. 
[10:38] <Lure> universe freeze is on 12, right?
[10:41] <Fujitsu> Lure: Right.
[10:41] <Fujitsu> After that everything needs an ack from motu-uvf.
[10:42] <Lure> Fujitsu: I am thinking on asking for UVFe for opensync 0.22
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[10:43] <Fujitsu> !info opensync feisty
[10:43] <ubotu> Package opensync does not exist in feisty
[10:44] <Fujitsu> UVF, or NewPackagesFreeze?
[10:44] <Lure> !info libopensync feisty
[10:44] <Fujitsu> Ah.
[10:44] <ubotu> Package libopensync does not exist in feisty
[10:45] <Fujitsu> !info libopensync0 feisty
[10:45] <ubotu> libopensync0: Synchronisation framework for email/pdas/and more. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.19-1.2ubuntu1 (feisty), package size 220 kB, installed size 672 kB
[10:45] <Lure> Fujitsu: more or less *sync* from here http://www.in.fh-merseburg.de/~jahn/opensync-0.21/edgy.php
[10:45] <Fujitsu> There we go.
[10:45] <Fujitsu> So it's a big bump.
[10:45] <Lure> Fujitsu: yep, old one is more or less useless for most users
[10:45] <Fujitsu> Is it broken at the moment?
[10:45] <Fujitsu> Aha.
[10:45] <Fujitsu> Sounds reasonable.
[10:45] <siretart> more or less?
[10:45] <Lure> 0.20 is the first one that had more devices working (release in opensuse 10.2)
[10:46] <Lure> siretart: most edgy users use these packages
[10:46] <ajmitch> iirc it was discussed a few days ago
[10:47] <Lure> ajmitch: yep, Mithrandir asked why we have so old release 
[10:47] <Fujitsu> Ah.
[10:47] <Lure> ajmitch: I just jumped on it as I have new mobile phone and kde integration finally works in 0.22
[10:47] <Fujitsu> If we have Mithrandir questioning it, sounds good.
[10:47] <Lure> ;-)
=== ajmitch wonders how many last minute freeze exceptions we'll get
[10:48] <siretart> Lure: any reason to not have it in feisty-backports?
[10:48] <Fujitsu> ajmitch: I can organise several if you want. Got a rewrite or two that some people have requested.
[10:48] <siretart> ajmitch: I wish we get PPA soon
[10:48] <Fujitsu> siretart: That shouldn't be long after Feisty is released.
[10:49] <Lure> siretart: actually that could be fine for people interested
[10:49] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: sure, go ahead 
=== Fujitsu mass-files UVF exceptions using a template.
[10:49] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: doesn't mean they'll get approved of course
[10:50] <Lure> siretart: I would not like to issue UVFe before I get some users with other phones - I test onlz kdepim and syncml plugins, but there are many other combinations
[10:51] <Lure> siretart: before we get at least evolution and some other phone plugin tested by some motu/devel it would be a tough call anyhow
=== Fujitsu has an old original Zire for testing, if that works.
[10:54] <nrg88> why does the adept_updater keep bugging me about "There's a new version of Kubuntu available..." and when i click Version upgrade, it fails all the time?
[10:54] <siretart> Lure: sounds like a perfect reason to me to focus on other things and hope it gets updated soon after goofy opens
=== Fujitsu finds a large number of people to bury the Automatix release story on Digg.
[10:55] <Lure> siretart: yep, I think this is better approach that late in the schedule
[10:55] <jussi01> Fujitsu, linky?
[10:55] <siretart> ok. I'm off to my parents for now. cu later!
[10:55] <Fujitsu> Bye siretart.
[10:55] <Fujitsu> jussi01: Front page.
[10:57] <ajmitch> bye siretart 
[10:58] <jussi01> Fujitsu, done!
[11:04] <jussi01> hi motu's can someone tell me what im missing with this error: ./bin_unix/linux_client: error while loading shared libraries: libSDL_image-1.2.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
[11:06] <Fujitsu> libsdl1.2-image
[11:06] <Fujitsu> I believe.
[11:06] <Fujitsu> !find libSDL_image-1.2.so.0
[11:06] <jussi01> thanks
[11:06] <ubotu> Package/file libsdl_image-1.2.so.0 does not exist in edgy
[11:07] <minghua> $ dpkg -S /usr/lib/libSDL_image-1.2.so.0
[11:07] <minghua> libsdl-image1.2: /usr/lib/libSDL_image-1.2.so.0
[11:07] <minghua> close enough
[11:13] <jussi01> thanks minghua 
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[11:13] <minghua> no problem
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[11:48] <ajmitch> gar, qa.debian.org still down
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[12:35] <crimsun> is today a bank holiday in the UK?
[12:36] <ajmitch> quite likely
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=== elkbuntu cackles at -devel
[12:43] <ajmitch> hm?
[12:43] <elkbuntu> <cypher1> mjg59: but will it not then unnecessarily take up memory ?
[12:43] <elkbuntu> <mjg59> If you need 9K that desperately, you may already have lost
[12:43] <ajmitch> ah yes
[12:43] <elkbuntu> sorry cypher1, but that is funny
=== ajmitch is just trying to do some disk cleanup
[12:43] <ajmitch> pbuilder apt cache had 11K packages in it
[12:44] <cypher1> elkbuntu: how ?
[12:44] <elkbuntu> ajmitch, a wee bit sluggish?
[12:44] <cypher1> elkbuntu: :)
[12:44] <ajmitch> elkbuntu: slightly
[12:44] <elkbuntu> cypher1, you argued with mjg59 for a start
[12:44] <ajmitch> especially as pbuilder copies the apt cache in for every package build
[12:44] <elkbuntu> s/argued/argued a point/
[12:44] <cypher1> elkbuntu: no to me it looks a bug
=== ajmitch has has fast disks, but 5.3GB takes awhile
[12:45] <cypher1> elkbuntu: it is not about 9K or more or less
[12:45] <ajmitch> though /var/lib/vmware was taking about 57GB, due to having a number of VMs
[12:46] <elkbuntu> cypher1, you need to choose your arguments better ;)
[12:46] <cypher1> elkbuntu: its mentioned in /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist-framebuffer, but it still gets loaded..
[12:46] <cypher1> elkbuntu: do you mean my words ? ;)
[12:47] <elkbuntu> cypher1, the basis of the point you are trying to make. you're trying to determine the genuine need for it to be loaded right?
[12:47] <cypher1> elkbuntu: yes!
[12:48] <elkbuntu> argue it on the basis it might interfere with stuff (really no idea if it could, just an example) but dont argue it on the basis it takes up a teensy bit of ram
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[12:48] <elkbuntu> which is what i mean by choose your arguments better :
[12:48] <tepsipakki> sigh, I really miss the feature from Tru64-UNIX AdvFS where you can set a fs-quota for a given fileset..
[12:48] <elkbuntu> find a technical reason, not an (almost) philisophical reason
[12:49] <cypher1> elkbuntu: ok!
[12:49] <cypher1> elkbuntu: thanks
[12:50] <elkbuntu> mjg59 is not an easy arguing opponant ;)
[12:50] <cypher1> elkbuntu: yes now i have understood ;)
[12:50] <elkbuntu> good luck :)
[12:52] <ajmitch> hey tepsipakki 
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[12:57] <tepsipakki> hey ajmitch!
[12:57] <tepsipakki> ajmitch: you don't have a holiday today?
[12:58] <tepsipakki> in NZ
[12:58] <ajmitch> yeah I do
[12:58] <TheMuso> Heya ajmitch.
[12:58] <tepsipakki> cool, same here
[12:58] <ajmitch> almost ended though
=== ajmitch has to work in the morning
[12:59] <chaks> ajmitch, users are telling the synaptic problem which i have is general one :)
[12:59] <chaks> in #ubuntu
[12:59] <chaks> i think its a bug ???
[01:00] <ajmitch> yeah, could be
[01:00] <ajmitch> if you're referring to the proxy issue
[01:01] <ajmitch> bug 86769
[01:01] <ubotu> Malone bug 86769 in synaptic "Synaptic proxy authentication does not work" [Medium,Fix committed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/86769
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[01:03] <ajmitch> not sure if that made it into feisty or not - the changelog doesn't mention it
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[01:17] <chaks> ajmitch, sudo synaptic from terminal works
[01:17] <chaks> but from menu, invoking synaptic does not!
[01:17] <chaks> ???
[01:19] <ajmitch> yeah, apparantly gksu is stripping out the proxy variables
[01:20] <elkbuntu> that's clever
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[01:21] <chaks> yea
[01:21] <chaks> i changed to sudo synaptic in menu
[01:21] <chaks> its working now
[01:21] <chaks> file a bug ? writing in the forums now
[01:21] <chaks> many have this problem
[01:21] <ajmitch> only for as long as your password is cached, I'd say
[01:21] <TheMuso> c
[01:21] <TheMuso> gah
[01:21] <chaks> yet i dint think its solved
[01:21] <TheMuso> not agai
[01:21] <TheMuso> again
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[01:41] <pwuertz> hi... I built a deb package for my application... but I dont know how to add it to the gnome panel
[01:41] <pwuertz> I already placed a .desktop file in /usr/share/applications
[01:42] <Hobbsee> where's that maintainer mangler script, again?
[01:42] <Adri2000> pwuertz: paste your .desktop file somewhere please
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[01:42] <Adri2000> !paste
[01:42] <ubotu> pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
[01:43] <pwuertz> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/14701/
[01:44] <Adri2000> pwuertz: you need Categories
[01:45] <pwuertz> ok... will add some
[01:45] <Adri2000> you can grep Categories /usr/share/applications/* to see what to put in it
[01:45] <pwuertz> is it safe to remove the menu file, since it does not do anything? or do I need both?
[01:46] <Adri2000> you can remove it
[01:46] <geser> Hobbsee: now also at https://code.launchpad.net/~motu/motutools/trunk
[01:48] <Hobbsee> nice
[01:48] <pwuertz> Adri2000: yey... worked!
[01:48] <pwuertz> thanks :)
[01:48] <Adri2000> :)
[01:49] <pwuertz> some other thing... is a package supposed to "killall nautilus" after installing? doesnt sound nice to me...
[01:49] <pwuertz> but nautilus wont recognize new thumbnailers without restarting
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=== ajmitch sleeps
[02:07] <imbrandon> gnight ajmitch 
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=== jdong gives an uneasy grin about an e-mail he received
[02:09] <Hobbsee> night ajmitch 
=== ajmitch wishes the weekend was a couple of days longer
[02:10] <ajmitch> oh well
[02:10] <jdong> One of the KTorrent devs said he was planning a new KTorrent release and was wondering when would be the latest that he could get it into Feisty....
[02:10] <jdong> (!)
=== ajmitch is required to work in the morning, so can't stay up & bug you all
[02:10] <ajmitch> jdong: hah
[02:10] <jdong> :)
[02:10] <Hobbsee> jdong: hah
[02:11] <Hobbsee> uh.... negative figures...
[02:11] <jdong> large negative figures :)
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[02:46] <marcin_ant> hi all
[02:46] <marcin_ant> could someone explain me if dbconfig-common can _create_ database during installation procedure?
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[03:00] <bddebian> Heya gang
[03:00] <Lutin> hi bddebian 
[03:00] <bddebian> Hi Lutin
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[03:12] <fernando> hi all
[03:12] <Hobbsee> hi fernando 
[03:13] <fernando> my ubuntu mirror have already with 172G and continuing (only x86 and amd64). Somebody know the size?
[03:13] <Hobbsee> binary and source?
[03:14] <fernando> only binary, without source
[03:14] <Hobbsee> something big.
[03:14] <fernando> heheheh
[03:16] <StevenK> fernando: My i386 and amd64 mirror for Edgy and Feisty is nowhere near that.
[03:17] <Fujitsu> Isn't it 13GB per architecture per release or so?
[03:18] <StevenK> It's 44Gb
[03:18] <Fujitsu> fernando: How are you mirroring it?
[03:19] <fernando> Fujitsu: rsync
[03:20] <Fujitsu> How're you grabbing just the two archs?
[03:20] <StevenK> Lots of --exclude, I'm guessing
[03:20] <fernando> --exclude
[03:21] <Fujitsu> Looks like they're not working.
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[03:22] <StevenK> I'd suggest debmirror, but it well, sucks.
=== fernando checking for problems
[03:22] <Fujitsu> StevenK: It's not that bad...
[03:24] <fernando> hummmm
[03:25] <StevenK> Fujitsu: Read the source and then disagree
[03:25] <fernando> nested mirror, it's not cool
[03:25] <Fujitsu> Oh, I've looked at the source.
[03:25] <Fujitsu> It works.
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[03:26] <StevenK> Fujitsu: Try and mirror edgy{,-{security,updates}} with sections main,restricted,universe,multiverse,main/debian-installer,restricted/debian-installer
[03:26] <Hobbsee> why edgy?
[03:26] <Fujitsu> I've not done the installer bits, but the others I do.
[03:26] <fernando> StevenK: use you rsync for mirror? debmirror? apt-proxy ? ...
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[03:28] <StevenK> Hobbsee: Because Fiesty doesn't have -security or -updates at this point, and I'm trying to show my point.
[03:28] <Hobbsee> ahhh'
[03:28] <StevenK> fernando: debmirror
[03:29] <StevenK> fernando: Add restricted/debian-installer and watch.
[03:29] <StevenK> Um, Fujitsu: ^
[03:29] <Fujitsu> StevenK: What does it do?
[03:29] <StevenK> Blow up
[03:30] <StevenK> It can't cope with the fact that restricted/debian-installer doesn't exist for edgy-updates
[03:30] <Fujitsu> Ah.
[03:30] <fernando> StevenK: i have mirrored restricted without problem
[03:30] <StevenK> restricted != restricted/debian-installer
[03:30] <Fujitsu> It'd be nice to be able to specify a matrix of sections and suites... I saw a mention of that somewhere.
[03:30] <StevenK> They are two different sections.
[03:31] <StevenK> Fujitsu: Exactly.
[03:31] <Fujitsu> Debian bug #387686
[03:31] <ubotu> Debian bug 387686 in debmirror "debmirror: patch to allow fine grained mirroring" [Normal,Open]  http://bugs.debian.org/387686
[03:31] <fernando> I'm not fetching installer
[03:31] <StevenK> Ohhhh
=== Fujitsu decides to close the window, as the temperature is quickly dropping here.
[03:32] <Fujitsu> StevenK: Hm?
[03:32] <StevenK> I hadn't seen that bug
[03:33] <Fujitsu> Ah.
[03:33] <crimsun> yay, ftpd is back on upload.uc
[03:34] <Hobbsee> :)
=== crimsun starts punting RC bugfixes
[03:34] <Hobbsee> hehe, yay!
[03:35] <crimsun> Adri2000: UNLOCK doodle, uploaded
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[03:35] <Adri2000> :)
[03:35] <Fujitsu> Nice long lock.
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[03:36] <StevenK> Fujitsu: ftpd on upload.u.c went walkabout
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[03:36] <Fujitsu> StevenK: Noted, I reported it in #launchpad an hour ago.
[03:36] <StevenK> Ahh
[03:37] <crimsun> (and I poked in #canonical-sysadmin 9 hours ago ;-)
[03:37] <imbrandon> i watched crimsun poke in #c-s 9 hours ago
[03:37] <imbrandon> :)
[03:38] <Fujitsu> And I saw crimsun notify the channel that he poked the sysadmins.
[03:38] <Fujitsu> I love the world exploding over Easter.
[03:39] <Fujitsu> Especially just before release.
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[03:43] <imbrandon> Fujitsu, or just after, depending on the release
[03:43] <Fujitsu> How's it particularly bad if it's just after the release?
[03:48] <StevenK> Depending on the service, people can't download, for example?
[03:48] <Fujitsu> I guess, but there are mirrors for that.
[03:49] <crimsun> I'm guessing the problem would be that most people don't have mirror hierarchy memorised
[03:51] <Fujitsu> How's that a problem?
[03:52] <crimsun> well, if httpd collapses, people might know that SE, for example, has a mirror, but they might not remember the actual URL
[03:52] <crimsun> s/a mirror/several mirrors/
[03:52] <Fujitsu> There are numerous non-Canonical mirrors, which are linked to from LP, the release announcement, and ubuntu.com.
[03:53] <crimsun> you're presuming people read instead of clicking /. links
[03:53] <crimsun> ;-)
[03:53] <Hobbsee> hehe
[03:53] <Fujitsu> This is true.
[03:53] <Fujitsu> Poor getautomatix.com.
[03:54] <Fujitsu> Yay, it's still down.
[03:54] <Hobbsee> hehe
[03:54] <Hobbsee> keeep it down.  permanently
[03:54] <ivoks> :D
[03:54] <Fujitsu> Just need to keep Digging it. The site was gone very quickly after it made the front page.
[03:55] <ivoks> this reminds me on days we had unsupported backports :D
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[04:01] <Fujitsu> Night everyone.
[04:02] <crimsun> 'night
[04:02] <bddebian> Gnight Fujitsu
[04:02] <Fujitsu> Night crimsun, bddebian, Hobbsee.
[04:03] <zul> hey
[04:04] <Hobbsee> hi zul!
[04:04] <zul> whats up Hobbsee?
[04:04] <Hobbsee> zul: not much.  thinking about bed soonish
[04:04] <zul> Hobbsee: cool Im just procastinating at work
[04:05] <Hobbsee> hehe
[04:05] <marcin_ant> guys I want to create set of packages let's call them: something-common, something-a, something-b
[04:05] <Hobbsee> work's a great place for irc
[04:05] <bddebian> heh, no shix Hobbsee :-)
[04:05] <Hobbsee> :P
[04:05] <marcin_ant> and something-a and *-b depends on something-common, this is webapp based on mysql
[04:06] <marcin_ant> where should I put scripts that install and prepare database?
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[04:16] <marcin_ant> ehh am I on ignore list or something....
[04:17] <ScottK> marcin_ant: Everyone here is a volunteer.  There are no paid devs in Universe, so just assume everyone is busy and don't take it personally.
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[04:18] <marcin_ant> ScottK: np
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[05:02] <geser> marcin_ant: does something-a and something-b both need the same database? if yes then do it in something-common
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[05:04] <marcin_ant> geser: yes they does need but I just thought that *-common packages should be pretty simple, that these packages should just install basic files
[05:09] <geser> there is no such requirement, you can put there all the parts of your package set that are common
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[05:09] <geser> in most cases that are only files
[05:10] <geser> but you can also setup a database which is needed by the other packages from your set
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[05:20] <ScottK> Bug #104817 is ready for UUS review if anyone is available...
[05:20] <ubotu> Malone bug 104817 in pop-before-smtp "Feisty pop-before-smtp depends on Exim, not Postfix" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/104817
[05:21] <crimsun> got it. LOCK 104817.
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[05:26] <crimsun> minor changelog clarifications applied.
[05:26] <crimsun>   pop-before-smtp_1.41-1ubuntu1_source.changes: done.
[05:26] <crimsun> Successfully uploaded packages.
[05:26] <crimsun> UNLOCK 104817
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[05:27] <ScottK> crimsun: Thanks.  I'll keep an eye on it.
[05:29] <ScottK> crimsun: I see the clarification you added.  Makes sense.  I'll remember that for next time (I hope)...
[05:29] <crimsun> (also cbds -> cdbs)
[05:30] <ScottK> Ah.  Urgh.  I actually double checked that one.  I can't type dpkg in the right order either about 80% of the time.
[05:30] <crimsun> that's ok, I misspell more often than I spell correctly by far
[05:31] <crimsun> thank goodness for shell history :-)
[05:31] <jdong> crimsun: reminds me of update-manager --help
[05:31] <jdong> :)
[05:31] <jdong>   --dist-upgrade, --dist-ugprade
[05:31] <jdong>                         Try to run a dist-upgrade
[05:32] <crimsun> :)
[05:34] <jdong> that gave me a quick laugh and then a rush of sympathy when I first saw it :D
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[05:47] <Q-FUNK> in bug 104681 would anybody know what Adept he is refering to?
[05:47] <ubotu> Malone bug 104681 in upgrade-system "Upgrade system fails in Feisty Beta" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/104681
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[05:49] <geser> isn't adept synaptic for kde?
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=== ScottK thought it was the other way around?
[05:50] <geser> synaptic is gnome
[05:50] <geser> adept is kde
[05:51] <ScottK> synaptic is adept for gnome.
[05:51] <geser> :)
[05:51] <ScottK> ;-)
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[05:51] <jdong> synaptiK?
[05:51] <jdong> :)
[05:52] <jdong> will KDE4 have a synaptic abstraction layer that allows for a number of synaptic backends?
[05:52] <jdong> "Packon"
[05:52] <jdong> there we do
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=== jdong gets on wikipedia KDE4.....
[05:53] <soc> is it just me or are the kde4 packages in feisty unusable in 90%
[05:53] <soc> ?
[05:54] <soc> it seems that barely anything wokrs
[05:54] <soc> compared to the packages from kubuntu.org this looks really bad ..
[05:56] <Cybermatt> Question I'm look at the changelogs from some source packages and i
[05:56] <bddebian> ...
[05:56] <Cybermatt> see lines like
[05:56] <Cybermatt>  -- sean finney <seanius@debian.org>  Sun, 17 Dec 2006 16:49:35 +0100
[05:57] <bddebian> And?
[05:57] <Cybermatt> what is that right after the timestamp
[05:57] <stgraber> timezone
[05:57] <Cybermatt> oh
[05:57] <Cybermatt> thanks
[05:58] <stgraber> no problem :)
[05:58] <Cybermatt> i am  new to the whole packageing thing
[05:58] <Cybermatt> :)
[05:59] <soc> does someone know why there are such big differences between the feisty kde4 and the kubuntu kde4 packages
[05:59] <ScottK> Q-FUNK: I changed bug 104681 to the correct package.
[05:59] <ubotu> Malone bug 104681 in adept "Upgrade system fails in Feisty Beta" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/104681
[05:59] <ScottK> soc: KDE4 is still under development and they are code snapshots taken at different times.
[05:59] <bddebian> Cybermatt: Its the offset from UTC
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[06:00] <Cybermatt> so mine would b -0400
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[06:00] <Cybermatt> be*
[06:00] <bddebian> Cybermatt: Sure :-)
[06:00] <bddebian> dch -i will do it for you ;-)
[06:00] <Cybermatt> ok
[06:01] <Cybermatt> dch -i
[06:01] <Cybermatt> in the top level source dir
[06:01] <bddebian> Yes
[06:01] <bddebian> Though I've heard you can run it from the /debian dir too
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[06:02] <Cybermatt> hmm
[06:02] <Cybermatt> ok
[06:02] <Cybermatt> ill get back to looking at stuff
[06:02] <DarkSun88> Hi all
[06:02] <Cybermatt> thanks
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[06:04] <Cybermatt> oh gotta go do something irst
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[06:06] <soc> ScottKK: They are both the third kde4 snapshot ...
[06:08] <LongPointyStick> soc: none of the kde4 packages are terribly stable.
[06:08] <LongPointyStick> soc: the kubuntu.org ones arent, either.
[06:08] <LongPointyStick> unless you're thinking of kde 3.5.6
[06:10] <jussi01> LongPointyStick, are you hobbsee in disguise?
[06:10] <LongPointyStick> jussi01: yes
[06:10] <jussi01> lol
[06:11] <jussi01> LongPointyStick, who have you been poking?
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[06:11] <soc> no, i meant the kde4 packages
[06:12] <LongPointyStick> jussi01: everyone
[06:12] <LongPointyStick> soc: there are no stable kde4 packages
[06:12] <soc> with the kubuntu packages i could start it from gdm7kdm it showed the dektop, everything quite ok
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[06:13] <soc> almost all applications worked
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[06:13] <soc> but with feisty nothing works, except some games
[06:13] <soc> i don't want stbale packages, i just wonder why there is such a difference
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[06:14] <LongPointyStick> soc: those packages are exactly the same
[06:15] <soc> mh, weird that there are such big differences ...
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[06:15] <LongPointyStick> wherea re you getting teh kubuntu.org packages from?
[06:17] <zul> LongPointyStick: dont you sleep?
[06:17] <soc> kubuntu.org
[06:18] <soc> http://kubuntu.org/announcements/kde4-3.80.3.php
[06:18] <soc> deb http://kubuntu.org/packages/kde4-3.80.3/ edgy main
[06:20] <LongPointyStick> zul: i'm heading there...
=== LongPointyStick doubts there's any difference
[06:21] <soc> mh
[06:22] <soc> but beside these packaging issues (obviously) the kde4 teams does some great work ...
=== soc means team
[06:22] <LongPointyStick> (apart from dependancies)
[06:23] <soc> what don't you like about the dependencies?
[06:23] <LongPointyStick> as in, there's no differences apart from the dependancies
=== LongPointyStick --> bed
[06:23] <LongPointyStick> night all, night zul 
[06:23] <soc> ah ok
[06:23] <crimsun> night ms. pointy stick!
[06:23] <LongPointyStick> :)
=== LongPointyStick points crimsun a few times
[06:24] <crimsun> glee
=== soc sees a new kde commit digest
=== soc runs ...
[06:26] <soc> "In three commits, we reduced the number of libraries loaded by kdecore (in my system) from 36 to 18."
[06:26] <soc> (10 of which are directly needed; 6 are indirect dependencies)
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[07:27] <LaserJock> good morning MOTU Land!
[07:27] <keescook> mornin LaserJock 
[07:28] <geser> Hi LaserJock
[07:28] <Q-FUNK> how would I configure gnome NOT to start sound juicer whenever a CD is inserted?  I'd rather have it start gnome-cd, instead.
[07:29] <Q-FUNK> ScottK: thanks!
[07:29] <ScottK> NP
[07:30] <geser> Q-FUNK: System -> Preferences -> Removable Drives and Media -> Multimedia
[07:31] <Q-FUNK> oh
[07:31] <Q-FUNK> DOH!
[07:31] <Q-FUNK> silly me!
[07:31] <Q-FUNK> geser: thanks!
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[08:06] <bigon> Hi,
[08:07] <bigon> could someone have a look at http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=4807
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[08:08] <DktrKranz> bigon, I think nobody will take a look at REVU until feisty + 1
[08:09] <DktrKranz> anyway, you won't have to wait too long
[08:09] <ScottK> At the very least you would need a UVF exception approved and the chances of getting it are not good at this point.
[08:10] <bigon> this upload only fix a crasher
[08:11] <bigon> the patch is taken from upstream cvs
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[08:12] <Joe_CoT> i get a " secret key not available" message when i run debuilder.
[08:12] <LaserJock> bigon: generally for fixes we attach a debdiff to the bug report
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[08:12] <DktrKranz> bigon, is it documented in Launchpad?
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[08:13] <Joe_CoT> any idea why / how to fix?
[08:13] <DktrKranz> Joe_CoT, try with -uc -us params
[08:14] <Joe_CoT> what's that do, not sign it?
[08:14] <LaserJock> Joe_CoT: do you need to sign it? if not do as DktrKranz just said
[08:14] <Joe_CoT> ok, thanks
[08:14] <ScottK> Joe_CoT: Do you have a gnupg key that uses the address you used in debian/changelog?  If you need to sign it, you need that.
[08:14] <Joe_CoT> i'm just building a pkg for myself to get the hang of it. i'll worry about signing later
[08:15] <DktrKranz> you'll eventually use -kyouremail@domain.com flag
[08:15] <Joe_CoT> okay, cool
[08:15] <DktrKranz> but if you don't need to sign it, forget about it :)
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[08:17] <Joe_CoT> can you tell me how cowdancer works? The man suggests that the command "cowdancer" should wrap pbuilder, but the command's not found after i install it
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[10:25] <ScottK> I need some python packaging advice.  Bug #80287 looks like a Python path problem.  The system random module is getting picked up instead of the one provided by the package.  It is packaged using python-support, but installs in /usr/share/games, not /usr/share/pysupport.  Any suggestions on a simple way to proceed?
[10:25] <ubotu> Malone bug 80287 in pysol "Doesn't start in feisty" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/80287
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[10:32] <Lutin> ScottK: can't reproduce the bug here
[10:33] <ajmitch> morning
=== ajmitch should update this etch box to the latest, final release :)
[10:33] <ScottK> Lutin: It started for you?
[10:33] <Lutin> ScottK: yep
[10:33] <ScottK> Hmmm.
[10:33] <Lutin> 'morning ajmitch 
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[10:34] <ScottK> Lutin: As you can see there are a bunch of dupes on it and I replicated it no problem.  Is there anything non-standard about your Python installation?
[10:35] <Lutin> ScottK: nothing I can think of
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[10:41] <psusi> can anyone suggest how I could begin to debug why xtightvncserver lost its ability to render non true type fonts in edgy?
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[10:44] <ScottK> Lutin: I can replicate this problem at will.  I just purged pysol and re-installed and had it again.
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[10:47] <Lutin> ScottK: heh, weird. I just tried a purge and it keeps working
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[10:48] <ScottK> Arghh.  
[10:49] <psusi> is there an environment variable or something you can set to get verbose debug output from X library calls?
[10:50] <micahcowan> psusi, what about ltrace?
[10:50] <Lutin> ScottK: and actually I can't understand why it even happens :/
[10:50] <psusi> ltrace?  hrm... I'll look that up
[10:51] <ScottK> OK.  Well when it happens the import statement in actions.py is trying to import from the system Python random module, but /src/random.py.  I've figured that much out, but not sure why it would be.
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[10:52] <PhinnFort> this is not a package request
[10:52] <PhinnFort> just a notification for whoever is packaging dolphin;):
[10:53] <PhinnFort> http://marrat.homelinux.org
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[11:04] <ScottK> Lutin: I've confirmed that if I rename the pysol provided random to a non-colliding name, the imports work.  Is there a simple way to make sure that the local directory gets looked at first in pythonpath when using python-support?
[11:06] <psusi> wasn't there a switch to tell X applications to force the calls to be synchronous so you can debug easier?
[11:07] <Lutin> ScottK: there is a simple that is implemented - /usr/share/games/pysol/pysol.py adds /usr/share/games/pysol/ as the first element of sys.path, thus this directory should be looked at first
[11:07] <Lutin> this is why I can't understand what happens, because here it just behaves as expected
[11:12] <ScottK> So I added a one liner print sys.path to see if it was being modified and pysol started.  Weird.
[11:13] <psusi> damn... ltraceing libX11 makes it segv
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[11:14] <Lutin> ScottK: you renamed the file to random.py ?
[11:15] <ScottK> No
[11:16] <ScottK> What I was exploring was brute forcing the problem by changing the pysol provided random.py to pysol_randmo.py and then changing the imports.
[11:17] <ScottK> I'd changed several of them when I saw your last response, so I added print sys.path to the one I was working on at the time and then instead of printing sys.path, pysol actually started.
[11:18] <ScottK> I purged and tried again added the print sys.path to actions.py (which is where the first import is) and then I got the same crash after printing sys.path.
[11:18] <ScottK> I can now confirm that sys.path includes /usr/share/games/pysol ahead of the system Python libraries as you had expected.
[11:19] <ScottK> This, of course, makes it completely weird that the error is happening.
[11:19] <Lutin> indeed
[11:20] <ScottK> I have variously tried to run it with both Python 2.4 and 2.5 with identical results.
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[11:22] <CyberMatt> Question If i wanted to make a package that just places some docs in /usr/share/doc how would i go about that
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[11:29] <Lutin> ScottK: if you try sys.path.insert(0, '/usr/share/games/pysol') and then from random import constructRandom, does it fail as well ?
[11:30] <Lutin> (from a python console)
=== ScottK tries
[11:32] <ScottK> Yes it does fail.
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[11:32] <Lutin> wow. *that* is definitely weird
[11:33] <micahcowan> CyberMatt, you'd probably just need a source package with a debian/rules file whose binary-indep target installs those files into /usr/share/doc (and other required targets present-but-empty).
[11:33] <geser> using dh_installdocs should be easier than installing them by hand
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[11:34] <ScottK> Lutin: But if I then print sys.path, /usr/share/games/pysol is the first dir listed as expected.
[11:34] <Lutin> ScottK: :/
[11:34] <Lutin> still works here (c)
=== ScottK will file a Python bug and hack around it then.
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[11:35] <Lutin> you need someone with more knowledge in python than me, that's something I can't understand :x
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[11:36] <CyberMatt> i made an audio version of the ubuntu packaging guide using festival and i wanna package it bunch of mp3s
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[11:52] <sacater> CyberMatt: good on you!
[11:52] <sacater> sorry
[11:52] <sacater> remove the ?
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[12:05] <CyberMatt> so if 
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