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| moowiz2020 | hello? | 04:29 |
|---|---|---|
| jjesse | hello | 04:29 |
| moowiz2020 | hi | 04:30 |
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| moowiz2020 | does anyone here think that the doc team should have another meeting? | 04:57 |
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| nixternal | moowiz2020: in the past year I think there was one meeting | 05:11 |
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| flaccid | hey guys | 05:24 |
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| nixternal | oi flaccid | 05:28 |
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| flaccid | yes | 05:29 |
| flaccid | nixternal: ? | 05:32 |
| nixternal | just sayin' hi | 05:39 |
| CIA-7 | Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r4121 /trunk/ (5 files in 4 dirs): spring cleaning - don't worry, unused is in branch if we need it - makefile will build - converted release name, version, and date | 05:40 |
| flaccid | hehe hi there | 05:40 |
| flaccid | anyone see my mail on the mailing list? | 05:40 |
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| Annn0nym0us | does anyone ever talk in here? | 06:28 |
| Madpilot | No. | 06:29 |
| Annn0nym0us | k | 06:29 |
| Annn0nym0us | just checking | 06:29 |
| Madpilot | it's been quiet lately, but there really is activity here aside from the bot sometimes. | 06:30 |
| Annn0nym0us | ok | 06:30 |
| Annn0nym0us | Madpilot, why are there people in here if no one talks at all? | 06:34 |
| Madpilot | we lurk | 06:35 |
| === tonyyarusso moos | ||
| flaccid | id like to talk about the lack of a handbook | 07:07 |
| flaccid | too many doco resources | 07:07 |
| flaccid | disadvantages of community based w/ too many cooks in the kitchen | 07:07 |
| nixternal | lurking is fun | 07:10 |
| nixternal | we talk during the dev cycle in here big time | 07:10 |
| nixternal | we are finished, taking a break, enjoying life | 07:10 |
| nixternal | for about 3 more months, thenn all hell will break loose once more | 07:10 |
| Admiral_Chicago | seriously | 07:17 |
| Admiral_Chicago | nothing more than a few odd bugs a couple times a week | 07:17 |
| flaccid | nobody would like to discuss my topic? | 07:17 |
| nixternal | didn't you post to the ML? | 07:18 |
| nixternal | I think I already answered it | 07:18 |
| nixternal | nobody reads them | 07:18 |
| nixternal | topic based is the way of the future | 07:19 |
| nixternal | GNOME and KDE are both migrating there now as we speak | 07:19 |
| flaccid | i disagree | 07:22 |
| flaccid | topic based allows for many entries on the same topic | 07:22 |
| flaccid | not exactly a concise way | 07:23 |
| flaccid | an official wiki with many user's opinions on how to do something | 07:23 |
| nixternal | topic based makes it easier to pinpoint an answer | 07:24 |
| nixternal | the handbook is find for a webpage, but not for a shipped document | 07:25 |
| nixternal | s/find/fine | 07:25 |
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| flaccid | topic based with a wiki makes it harder to find. you have to search. | 07:39 |
| flaccid | and then go through all the results to find one that works | 07:39 |
| flaccid | have a look at the freebsd handbook. everything you need is in the TOC | 07:40 |
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| flaccid | i also don't know what you mean by topic based. a handbook with TOC is topic based | 07:48 |
| flaccid | i dont know what you mean that its not ok for a shipped document other OSs/distros go well | 07:49 |
| nixternal | well those will eventually change with the topic based help systems that KDE and GNOME are working on | 07:50 |
| flaccid | what are these topic based systems? can you show me? | 07:51 |
| nixternal | I wonder if the FreeBSD handbook could be anymore cluttered | 07:51 |
| nixternal | I forgot what the GNOME one is called, but there is a spec and implementation detail at freedesktop.org | 07:51 |
| nixternal | KHelpCenter will change with the strigi implementation | 07:51 |
| flaccid | well freebsd has different kinds of users to ubuntu, so i can understand why some interpret it as cluttered | 07:52 |
| nixternal | I have been using FreeBSD for a long time and this is a first that I have really looked at it | 07:52 |
| flaccid | can you provide me any links to check it out, or is it just a pipe dream atm? | 07:52 |
| flaccid | thats weird because the handbook is like a bible to most freebsd users | 07:52 |
| nixternal | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TopicBasedHelp | 07:53 |
| nixternal | if you follow some of the links in there you will find more info nt he topic based help | 07:54 |
| nixternal | also you have to remember that Ubuntu is focusing on accessibility and surveys and field studies have shown that topic based is better for the majority of the users | 07:55 |
| nixternal | topic based help still has all of the info that the desktop guide had, just structured better | 07:55 |
| nixternal | http://www.gnome.org/~shaunm/quack/mallard.xml | 07:55 |
| nixternal | that is the gnome project, dunno if they have updated that page in a while | 07:55 |
| flaccid | well i am a main helper in #kubuntu and its a mess | 07:56 |
| nixternal | but last I heard it is no longer vaporware | 07:56 |
| nixternal | what is a mess? | 07:56 |
| nixternal | how hard is it for a user to hit "Kubuntu System Documentation" in KHelpCenter? | 07:56 |
| nixternal | there they pick the topic they are looking for | 07:56 |
| nixternal | if it isn't there, there are links to other locations to search | 07:56 |
| flaccid | is this in existance yet? | 07:57 |
| nixternal | seeing as I did the entire Kubuntu setup which was aided by KDE usability developers | 07:57 |
| nixternal | flaccid: in Feisty yes | 07:57 |
| flaccid | right | 07:57 |
| flaccid | well nobody knows about it.. | 07:57 |
| flaccid | how do i do it | 07:57 |
| nixternal | it is in KHelpCenter, just like the old dekstop guide was | 07:58 |
| nixternal | the only difference you will see is the index layout | 07:58 |
| === flaccid goes to test | ||
| flaccid | seems like application manuals are missing | 07:59 |
| nixternal | for what? | 07:59 |
| flaccid | for KHelpCenter | 08:00 |
| nixternal | they are here for me | 08:00 |
| flaccid | it says index creation finished, yet it failed | 08:00 |
| nixternal | sounds like you have boog | 08:00 |
| nixternal | don't use the search feature | 08:00 |
| flaccid | and the index doesn't look very easy to navigate anyway | 08:00 |
| nixternal | it is supposed to use htdig, but since that is a security nightmare, we don't have it implemented | 08:01 |
| nixternal | KHelpCenter and the index is KDE | 08:01 |
| nixternal | the one link up top for Kubuntu documents | 08:01 |
| nixternal | that is us | 08:01 |
| nixternal | KHelpCenter will be rewritten for KDE 4 | 08:01 |
| flaccid | this thing is pretty much a guide or handbook anyway | 08:01 |
| flaccid | cept its offline | 08:02 |
| nixternal | if someone can navigate the internet, then they can navigate KHelpCenter | 08:02 |
| flaccid | the internet is not an easy thing to navigate | 08:02 |
| nixternal | granted I don't think most people care to read about kioslaves ;) | 08:02 |
| flaccid | well the TOC needs to be logical | 08:03 |
| nixternal | which one? | 08:03 |
| flaccid | any | 08:03 |
| nixternal | did you take a look at the Kubuntu System Documenation? | 08:03 |
| flaccid | so kubuntu 7.04 system documentation is basically what i wanted | 08:03 |
| nixternal | yup | 08:03 |
| flaccid | right im' glade we got to at least that point | 08:03 |
| nixternal | it has been there since Warty :) | 08:03 |
| flaccid | now let me find the issues with this :p | 08:04 |
| flaccid | and the community has never known.... | 08:04 |
| nixternal | oh, there are plenty of issues | 08:04 |
| nixternal | like modems, wifi, and binary blobs | 08:04 |
| nixternal | I refuse to document that information because 1) it isn't free, and 2) it is all over the wiki and the internet | 08:04 |
| flaccid | is there any reason why you didn't suggest in your reply email for me to add to this doco ? | 08:04 |
| nixternal | well there is no more adding to Fesity docs, what you see is what you get until October 2007 | 08:05 |
| flaccid | like vnc can just go in networking section.. | 08:05 |
| mpt | nixternal, no use it being all over the wiki and the Internet if people can't get on the Internet in the first place :-) | 08:05 |
| nixternal | mpt: you realize it would take us a year to document modems | 08:05 |
| nixternal | I spoke to the linmodems people and they said point to us, don't waste your time documenting it | 08:05 |
| nixternal | there are over 5000 pages for modem installation (winmodems) | 08:06 |
| nixternal | alone | 08:06 |
| flaccid | so can i just create some new docs go in there for next release? | 08:06 |
| nixternal | feel free to write something up, yes | 08:07 |
| nixternal | but there is of course no guarantee | 08:07 |
| nixternal | probably wiki-fy it first | 08:07 |
| flaccid | is this offline doco system going to be accessible online? | 08:07 |
| nixternal | also remember that with the topic based system, we went with the most frequent issues or help topics people searched for | 08:08 |
| nixternal | flaccid: already is | 08:08 |
| nixternal | http://doc.ubuntu.com | 08:08 |
| nixternal | it will eventually make its way to https://help.ubuntu.com under the 7.04 tab | 08:08 |
| flaccid | is it possible to provide someone with an offline link? | 08:08 |
| nixternal | help:/ | 08:08 |
| nixternal | help:/kubuntu/office | 08:08 |
| flaccid | The requested URL /kubuntu/C/index.html was not found on this server. | 08:09 |
| nixternal | they can type that in Konqui, or if they want they can setup firefox to to do help:/ links, which is under help:/kubuntu/internet I believe | 08:09 |
| nixternal | or maybe help:/kubuntu/getting-help | 08:09 |
| flaccid | interesting | 08:09 |
| flaccid | help:/kubuntu/ There is no documentation available for /kubuntu/index.html. | 08:10 |
| flaccid | and how to get the link of the offline page to give to someone? | 08:11 |
| nixternal | right click the link in KHelpCenter and copy it or in Konqueror you can get he help index by going to help:/kubuntu/sysdocs-index | 08:11 |
| nixternal | which I am glad you just did the help:/kubuntu | 08:11 |
| nixternal | I will do something different for 7.10 | 08:12 |
| flaccid | can't work out how to get link of current page | 08:12 |
| flaccid | ie. no link | 08:13 |
| flaccid | and http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/ | 08:13 |
| nixternal | that is the staging server | 08:13 |
| flaccid | so its not live yet? | 08:14 |
| nixternal | ya, probably no docs there yet since I just set that up today | 08:14 |
| flaccid | ok | 08:14 |
| nixternal | live will be located on help.ubuntu.com | 08:14 |
| nixternal | doc.ubuntu.com is a great way to follow development | 08:14 |
| flaccid | and the docs will be for free stuff only? | 08:15 |
| flaccid | ie. no doc for non-free like mp3 - that would be on the wiki? | 08:15 |
| nixternal | flaccid: there is mp3 stuff in there that carried over from the old docs | 08:16 |
| nixternal | when I say non free I mean like NVidia and ATI | 08:16 |
| nixternal | that is another documenting nightmare | 08:16 |
| flaccid | hmm ok | 08:17 |
| flaccid | there is a lot of nightmares | 08:17 |
| nixternal | yup, and the wiki makes them worse, and so does the internet, but I am pointing them to it | 08:17 |
| nixternal | NVidia and ATI documenation on our wiki is so bad I don't even look at it | 08:17 |
| flaccid | hmm | 08:18 |
| flaccid | at this point im thinking what i want excludes a lot of things you guys dont want | 08:18 |
| nixternal | and I have gone through in the past and fixed it just to have some moron go back and change it just because it works "that way" for his card | 08:18 |
| nixternal | exclude like what? | 08:18 |
| flaccid | yeah this another reason why i dislike wikis | 08:18 |
| nixternal | I want to build on what is already there | 08:18 |
| flaccid | things like non-free and video | 08:18 |
| nixternal | seeing as Gusty (7.10) is going to be about free, I would have to rethink it | 08:19 |
| nixternal | just because I don't support it and I won't document it, doesn't mean that you can't :) | 08:19 |
| nixternal | plus, 7.10 is going to be the last of KDE 3.5.x, so all of the documentation will be rewritten for gusty+1 | 08:20 |
| flaccid | hmm | 08:20 |
| flaccid | at this point im thinking of making my own complete handbook and make the information free to share. we just don't have the same direction and requirements | 08:20 |
| nixternal | you of course are free to do that | 08:21 |
| nixternal | although reinventing the wheel is never the best thing to do | 08:21 |
| flaccid | this is not reinventing the wheel, because the wheel does not exist | 08:21 |
| nixternal | you can't go by personal direction in a community project either, it is tough to do | 08:21 |
| nixternal | just ask mdke and mpt about how much jjesse and I argued about how silly topic based help was :) | 08:22 |
| flaccid | i know, but nobody has made what i want to make | 08:22 |
| nixternal | oh the wheel exists, it is just in 404382084 locations | 08:22 |
| flaccid | hehe yes exactly my point | 08:22 |
| flaccid | options is not a good thing. 1 reliable solution for a problem is. | 08:23 |
| nixternal | we are supposed to be looking into a single help portal as well in the near future from what I have been told, so that should be interesting | 08:23 |
| nixternal | 1 reliable solution for Linux is damn near impossible | 08:23 |
| nixternal | look at the Linux documentation project, they can't even get it all | 08:23 |
| nixternal | and by the time you have it, it has changed once or twice | 08:23 |
| nixternal | plus our system documentation is geared more towards someone who is newer to the Linux world | 08:24 |
| nixternal | someone that knows how to search a wiki or the internet never hits the help button anyways | 08:24 |
| nixternal | alrighty, my pillow just hollored my name ;) | 08:27 |
| nixternal | flaccid: I would love to work with ya for 7.10 on documentation if you are up to it | 08:27 |
| nixternal | come up with a proposal like thing and we can see what we can do | 08:28 |
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| flaccid | yeah im still thinking about my approach | 08:38 |
| flaccid | but i believe that myself can write a good handbook | 08:38 |
| flaccid | thing is i know that if someone else works on it as well or the community does, it won't work | 08:38 |
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| nixternal | flaccid: that isn't the right mindset for free and open source development. it isn't about 1, it is about the community | 08:43 |
| nixternal | every document you read pretty much had community involvement | 08:43 |
| nixternal | oh well, the pillow is yellng my name again | 08:44 |
| nixternal | g'nite | 08:44 |
| flaccid | well the community won't stick to the goals of this and i don't have faith in the community to be able to accomplish it, i also don't have time to moderate this kind of project | 08:44 |
| flaccid | this would be 1 of those nightmares | 08:45 |
| flaccid | and this isn't development its documenation | 08:45 |
| flaccid | :) | 08:45 |
| Burgundavia | flaccid: I have no idea who you are and I have to say, I don't really like your attitude | 08:47 |
| flaccid | everyone is entitled to their opinion | 08:48 |
| Burgundavia | however, I missed the first part of your statement | 08:49 |
| flaccid | its about management, Burgundavia | 08:49 |
| Burgundavia | what exactly were you trying to say? | 08:49 |
| flaccid | im trying to say projects are not simple to manage to ensure their goals are met | 08:49 |
| Madpilot | ...and this is news how, exactly? | 08:49 |
| Burgundavia | this is not a terribly shocking finding | 08:49 |
| flaccid | just quality control itself is a lot of time and process | 08:49 |
| Burgundavia | Madpilot: hmm, we think alike. Are we related? :) | 08:49 |
| flaccid | i never said it was new | 08:50 |
| flaccid | i am just saying how it relates to what i want to do | 08:50 |
| Burgundavia | right | 08:50 |
| Burgundavia | and what exactly do you want to do? | 08:50 |
| flaccid | write a handbook for kubuntu with a closed UoD | 08:50 |
| Madpilot | Burgundavia, you missed the best bit just before you joined here: "<flaccid> thing is i know that if someone else works on it as well or the community does, it won't work" | 08:50 |
| Burgundavia | again, not terribly shocking | 08:51 |
| flaccid | i don't really care what you think | 08:51 |
| Burgundavia | fine | 08:51 |
| flaccid | i am just stating my opinion. this is freenode last time i checked | 08:51 |
| Burgundavia | that you can | 08:51 |
| Burgundavia | but I am wondering what your point was | 08:51 |
| flaccid | like i said management | 08:52 |
| flaccid | i don't have time to manage a project | 08:53 |
| Burgundavia | right | 08:53 |
| flaccid | i need to make sure it doesn't get out of control | 08:53 |
| Burgundavia | which, this project? | 08:53 |
| flaccid | so its easier to do it myself and then share that with the community then it is to collab with the community.. | 08:54 |
| flaccid | well there is no project | 08:54 |
| Burgundavia | are you talking about this Ubuntu Documentation Team? | 08:54 |
| flaccid | no | 08:54 |
| flaccid | i think you missed my conversation from early. | 08:54 |
| Burgundavia | what was that about? | 08:55 |
| flaccid | eh im not repeating myself sorry | 08:55 |
| Burgundavia | ok | 08:55 |
| Madpilot | Burgundavia, the shortcomings of current user docs, and how a single-handed project will provide far better docs. Or something similar. | 08:56 |
| Burgundavia | Madpilot: umm, ok | 08:56 |
| flaccid | no that is incorrect Madpilot | 08:56 |
| Burgundavia | ah, the great consistency argument | 08:56 |
| flaccid | well yes consistency is lost with lots of cooks in the kitchen all doing their own thing | 08:56 |
| Burgundavia | you have never managed any volunteer projects before, have you? | 08:57 |
| flaccid | yes i have, but like i said i don't have the time with this one | 08:57 |
| flaccid | and me and the doc project have different direction | 08:57 |
| Burgundavia | hmm, heard that one before | 08:57 |
| Burgundavia | Madpilot: I think it was I who said it | 08:57 |
| Burgundavia | and I am still here | 08:58 |
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| Burgundavia | hey willvdl, long time no chat | 08:58 |
| willvdl | Burgundavia, indeed | 08:58 |
| willvdl | I've been on a long leave in S.America | 08:58 |
| Burgundavia | ahh | 08:58 |
| Burgundavia | you still working for Canonical? | 08:59 |
| willvdl | yip | 08:59 |
| willvdl | coming to UDS? | 08:59 |
| Burgundavia | thanks to your employer, yep | 08:59 |
| flaccid | because what i want is different from what this project is doing, i think i will do my fork. thanks for the chat. | 08:59 |
| Burgundavia | flaccid: have fun | 08:59 |
| Madpilot | flaccid, have a forking good time. | 08:59 |
| flaccid | i surely will, you might thank me one day | 08:59 |
| willvdl | Burgundavia, great. UES as well? | 09:00 |
| Burgundavia | sadly no | 09:00 |
| willvdl | pity, I could do with some marketing/doc folks | 09:00 |
| Burgundavia | convince your employer :) | 09:00 |
| flaccid | haha, never say never, especially when flaccid is involved! | 09:00 |
| Burgundavia | my Edubuntu work has been very limited | 09:00 |
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| Burgundavia | wow, he must have been high | 09:01 |
| Madpilot | "This is your brain. This is your brain on docs. Any questions?" | 09:02 |
| willvdl | nope. maybe that's the point... | 09:04 |
| Burgundavia | you missed the fun part | 09:05 |
| Burgundavia | I mostly did too | 09:05 |
| Madpilot | night all | 09:19 |
| mpt | Wow, harshness | 09:20 |
| Burgundavia | hey mpt | 09:20 |
| mpt | hi Burgundavia | 09:22 |
| mpt | I don't think "too many docs" is a problem | 09:22 |
| Burgundavia | unless they are bad docs, no | 09:22 |
| mpt | yes, depending on what "bad" means | 09:23 |
| Burgundavia | misleading | 09:23 |
| Burgundavia | did you see that techalign/pioneerlinux is now promoting and funding automatix? | 09:23 |
| mpt | Never heard of either of them | 09:24 |
| Burgundavia | they do a version of kubuntu | 09:25 |
| mpt | Let the lawsuits begin! | 09:25 |
| mpt | Actually I've never seen Automatix before, I'm just giggling at the screenshot in <https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Automatix> | 09:32 |
| mpt | It really has a toolbar with only one button, and a set of tabs with only one tab? | 09:33 |
| Burgundavia | possibly | 09:34 |
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| ubotu | New bug: #106594 in xubuntu-docs "Xubuntu Desktop have examples files that shouldnt be there" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/106594 | 05:20 |
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| jono | hey | 05:24 |
| jono | mdke: ping | 05:24 |
| mdke | jono: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back) | 05:24 |
| jono | any core docs people here? | 05:26 |
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| bdmurray | the copyright in the kubuntu hanbook at least doesn't have 2007 | 05:56 |
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| shirish | hi all, I have couple of questions about the wiki if somebody can respond? | 07:24 |
| shirish | It's to do with how the wiki is written, there are no time-stamps so its difficult to know when somebody wrote something | 07:29 |
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| nixternal | jono: what's up? | 08:11 |
| nixternal | 10:26:02 [ jono] any core docs people here? | 08:11 |
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