[04:29] <moowiz2020> hello?
[04:29] <jjesse> hello
[04:30] <moowiz2020> hi
[04:57] <moowiz2020> does anyone here think that the doc team should have another meeting?
[05:11] <nixternal> moowiz2020: in the past year I think there was one meeting
[05:24] <flaccid> hey guys
[05:28] <nixternal> oi flaccid
[05:29] <flaccid> yes
[05:32] <flaccid> nixternal: ?
[05:39] <nixternal> just sayin' hi
[05:40] <CIA-7> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r4121 /trunk/ (5 files in 4 dirs): spring cleaning - don't worry, unused is in branch if we need it - makefile will build - converted release name, version, and date
[05:40] <flaccid> hehe hi there
[05:40] <flaccid> anyone see my mail on the mailing list?
[06:28] <Annn0nym0us> does anyone ever talk in here?
[06:29] <Madpilot> No.
[06:29] <Annn0nym0us> k
[06:29] <Annn0nym0us> just checking
[06:30] <Madpilot> it's been quiet lately, but there really is activity here aside from the bot sometimes.
[06:30] <Annn0nym0us> ok
[06:34] <Annn0nym0us> Madpilot, why are there people in here if no one talks at all?
[06:35] <Madpilot> we lurk
[07:07] <flaccid> id like to talk about the lack of a handbook
[07:07] <flaccid> too many doco resources
[07:07] <flaccid> disadvantages of community based w/ too many cooks in the kitchen
[07:10] <nixternal> lurking is fun
[07:10] <nixternal> we talk during the dev cycle in here big time
[07:10] <nixternal> we are finished, taking a break, enjoying life
[07:10] <nixternal> for about 3 more months, thenn all hell will break loose once more
[07:17] <Admiral_Chicago> seriously
[07:17] <Admiral_Chicago> nothing more than a few odd bugs a couple times a week
[07:17] <flaccid> nobody would like to discuss my topic?
[07:18] <nixternal> didn't you post to the ML?
[07:18] <nixternal> I think I already answered it
[07:18] <nixternal> nobody reads them
[07:19] <nixternal> topic based is the way of the future
[07:19] <nixternal> GNOME and KDE are both migrating there now as we speak
[07:22] <flaccid> i disagree
[07:22] <flaccid> topic based allows for many entries on the same topic
[07:23] <flaccid> not exactly a concise way
[07:23] <flaccid> an official wiki with many user's opinions on how to do something
[07:24] <nixternal> topic based makes it easier to pinpoint an answer
[07:25] <nixternal> the handbook is find for a webpage, but not for a shipped document
[07:25] <nixternal> s/find/fine
[07:39] <flaccid> topic based with a wiki makes it harder to find. you have to search.
[07:39] <flaccid> and then go through all the results to find one that works
[07:40] <flaccid> have a look at the freebsd handbook. everything you need is in the TOC
[07:48] <flaccid> i also don't know what you mean by topic based. a handbook with TOC is topic based
[07:49] <flaccid> i dont know what you mean that its not ok for a shipped document other OSs/distros go well
[07:50] <nixternal> well those will eventually change with the topic based help systems that KDE and GNOME are working on
[07:51] <flaccid> what are these topic based systems? can you show me?
[07:51] <nixternal> I wonder if the FreeBSD handbook could be anymore cluttered
[07:51] <nixternal> I forgot what the GNOME one is called, but there is a spec and implementation detail at freedesktop.org
[07:51] <nixternal> KHelpCenter will change with the strigi implementation
[07:52] <flaccid> well freebsd has different kinds of users to ubuntu, so i can understand why some interpret it as cluttered
[07:52] <nixternal> I have been using FreeBSD for a long time and this is a first that I have really looked at it
[07:52] <flaccid> can you provide me any links to check it out, or is it just a pipe dream atm?
[07:52] <flaccid> thats weird because the handbook is like a bible to most freebsd users
[07:53] <nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TopicBasedHelp
[07:54] <nixternal> if you follow some of the links in there you will find more info nt he topic based help
[07:55] <nixternal> also you have to remember that Ubuntu is focusing on accessibility and surveys and field studies have shown that topic based is better for the majority of the users
[07:55] <nixternal> topic based help still has all of the info that the desktop guide had, just structured better
[07:55] <nixternal> http://www.gnome.org/~shaunm/quack/mallard.xml
[07:55] <nixternal> that is the gnome project, dunno if they have updated that page in a while
[07:56] <flaccid> well i am a main helper in #kubuntu and its a mess
[07:56] <nixternal> but last I heard it is no longer vaporware
[07:56] <nixternal> what is a mess?
[07:56] <nixternal> how hard is it for a user to hit "Kubuntu System Documentation" in KHelpCenter?
[07:56] <nixternal> there they pick the topic they are looking for
[07:56] <nixternal> if it isn't there, there are links to other locations to search
[07:57] <flaccid> is this in existance yet?
[07:57] <nixternal> seeing as I did the entire Kubuntu setup which was aided by KDE usability developers
[07:57] <nixternal> flaccid: in Feisty yes
[07:57] <flaccid> right
[07:57] <flaccid> well nobody knows about it..
[07:57] <flaccid> how do i do it
[07:58] <nixternal> it is in KHelpCenter, just like the old dekstop guide was
[07:58] <nixternal> the only difference you will see is the index layout
[07:59] <flaccid> seems like application manuals are missing
[07:59] <nixternal> for what?
[08:00] <flaccid> for KHelpCenter
[08:00] <nixternal> they are here for me
[08:00] <flaccid> it says index creation finished, yet it failed
[08:00] <nixternal> sounds like you have boog
[08:00] <nixternal> don't use the search feature
[08:00] <flaccid> and the index doesn't look very easy to navigate anyway
[08:01] <nixternal> it is supposed to use htdig, but since that is a security nightmare, we don't have it implemented
[08:01] <nixternal> KHelpCenter and the index is KDE
[08:01] <nixternal> the one link up top for Kubuntu documents
[08:01] <nixternal> that is us
[08:01] <nixternal> KHelpCenter will be rewritten for KDE 4
[08:01] <flaccid> this thing is pretty much a guide or handbook anyway
[08:02] <flaccid> cept its offline
[08:02] <nixternal> if someone can navigate the internet, then they can navigate KHelpCenter
[08:02] <flaccid> the internet is not an easy thing to navigate
[08:02] <nixternal> granted I don't think most people care to read about kioslaves ;)
[08:03] <flaccid> well the TOC needs to be logical
[08:03] <nixternal> which one?
[08:03] <flaccid> any
[08:03] <nixternal> did you take a look at the Kubuntu System Documenation?
[08:03] <flaccid> so kubuntu 7.04 system documentation is basically what i wanted
[08:03] <nixternal> yup
[08:03] <flaccid> right im' glade we got to at least that point
[08:03] <nixternal> it has been there since Warty :)
[08:04] <flaccid> now let me find the issues with this :p
[08:04] <flaccid> and the community has never known....
[08:04] <nixternal> oh, there are plenty of issues
[08:04] <nixternal> like modems, wifi, and binary blobs
[08:04] <nixternal> I refuse to document that information because 1) it isn't free, and 2) it is all over the wiki and the internet
[08:04] <flaccid> is there any reason why you didn't suggest in your reply email for me to add to this doco ?
[08:05] <nixternal> well there is no more adding to Fesity docs, what you see is what you get until October 2007
[08:05] <flaccid> like vnc can just go in networking section..
[08:05] <mpt> nixternal, no use it being all over the wiki and the Internet if people can't get on the Internet in the first place :-)
[08:05] <nixternal> mpt: you realize it would take us a year to document modems
[08:05] <nixternal> I spoke to the linmodems people and they said point to us, don't waste your time documenting it
[08:06] <nixternal> there are over 5000 pages for modem installation (winmodems)
[08:06] <nixternal> alone
[08:06] <flaccid> so can i just create some new docs go in there for next release?
[08:07] <nixternal> feel free to write something up, yes
[08:07] <nixternal> but there is of course no guarantee
[08:07] <nixternal> probably wiki-fy it first
[08:07] <flaccid> is this offline doco system going to be accessible online?
[08:08] <nixternal> also remember that with the topic based system, we went with the most frequent issues or help topics people searched for
[08:08] <nixternal> flaccid: already is
[08:08] <nixternal> http://doc.ubuntu.com
[08:08] <nixternal> it will eventually make its way to https://help.ubuntu.com under the 7.04 tab
[08:08] <flaccid> is it possible to provide someone with an offline link?
[08:08] <nixternal> help:/
[08:08] <nixternal> help:/kubuntu/office
[08:09] <flaccid> The requested URL /kubuntu/C/index.html was not found on this server.
[08:09] <nixternal> they can type that in Konqui, or if they want they can setup firefox to to do help:/ links, which is under help:/kubuntu/internet I believe
[08:09] <nixternal> or maybe help:/kubuntu/getting-help
[08:09] <flaccid> interesting
[08:10] <flaccid> help:/kubuntu/ There is no documentation available for /kubuntu/index.html.
[08:11] <flaccid> and how to get the link of the offline page to give to someone?
[08:11] <nixternal> right click the link in KHelpCenter and copy it or in Konqueror you can get he help index by going to help:/kubuntu/sysdocs-index
[08:11] <nixternal> which I am glad you just did the help:/kubuntu
[08:12] <nixternal> I will do something different for 7.10
[08:12] <flaccid> can't work out how to get link of current page
[08:13] <flaccid> ie. no link
[08:13] <flaccid> and http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/
[08:13] <nixternal> that is the staging server
[08:14] <flaccid> so its not live yet?
[08:14] <nixternal> ya, probably no docs there yet since I just set that up today
[08:14] <flaccid> ok
[08:14] <nixternal> live will be located on help.ubuntu.com
[08:14] <nixternal> doc.ubuntu.com is a great way to follow development
[08:15] <flaccid> and the docs will be for free stuff only?
[08:15] <flaccid> ie. no doc for non-free like mp3 - that would be on the wiki?
[08:16] <nixternal> flaccid: there is mp3 stuff in there that carried over from the old docs
[08:16] <nixternal> when I say non free I mean like NVidia and ATI
[08:16] <nixternal> that is another documenting nightmare
[08:17] <flaccid> hmm ok
[08:17] <flaccid> there is a lot of nightmares
[08:17] <nixternal> yup, and the wiki makes them worse, and so does the internet, but I am pointing them to it
[08:17] <nixternal> NVidia and ATI documenation on our wiki is so bad I don't even look at it
[08:18] <flaccid> hmm
[08:18] <flaccid> at this point im thinking what i want excludes a lot of things you guys dont want
[08:18] <nixternal> and I have gone through in the past and fixed it just to have some moron go back and change it just because it works "that way" for his card
[08:18] <nixternal> exclude like what?
[08:18] <flaccid> yeah this another reason why i dislike wikis
[08:18] <nixternal> I want to build on what is already there
[08:18] <flaccid> things like non-free and video
[08:19] <nixternal> seeing as Gusty (7.10) is going to be about free, I would have to rethink it
[08:19] <nixternal> just because I don't support it and I won't document it, doesn't mean that you can't :)
[08:20] <nixternal> plus, 7.10 is going to be the last of KDE 3.5.x, so all of the documentation will be rewritten for gusty+1
[08:20] <flaccid> hmm
[08:20] <flaccid> at this point im thinking of making my own complete handbook and make the information free to share. we just don't have the same direction and requirements
[08:21] <nixternal> you of course are free to do that
[08:21] <nixternal> although reinventing the wheel is never the best thing to do
[08:21] <flaccid> this is not reinventing the wheel, because the wheel does not exist
[08:21] <nixternal> you can't go by personal direction in a community project either, it is tough to do
[08:22] <nixternal> just ask mdke and mpt about how much jjesse and I argued about how silly topic based help was :)
[08:22] <flaccid> i know, but nobody has made what i want to make
[08:22] <nixternal> oh the wheel exists, it is just in 404382084 locations
[08:22] <flaccid> hehe yes exactly my point
[08:23] <flaccid> options is not a good thing. 1 reliable solution for a problem is.
[08:23] <nixternal> we are supposed to be looking into a single help portal as well in the near future from what I have been told, so that should be interesting
[08:23] <nixternal> 1 reliable solution for Linux is damn near impossible
[08:23] <nixternal> look at the Linux documentation project, they can't even get it all
[08:23] <nixternal> and by the time you have it, it has changed once or twice
[08:24] <nixternal> plus our system documentation is geared more towards someone who is newer to the Linux world
[08:24] <nixternal> someone that knows how to search a wiki or the internet never hits the help button anyways
[08:27] <nixternal> alrighty, my pillow just hollored my name ;)
[08:27] <nixternal> flaccid: I would love to work with ya for 7.10 on documentation if you are up to it
[08:28] <nixternal> come up with a proposal like thing and we can see what we can do
[08:38] <flaccid> yeah im still thinking about my approach
[08:38] <flaccid> but i believe that myself can write a good handbook
[08:38] <flaccid> thing is i know that if someone else works on it as well or the community does, it won't work
[08:43] <nixternal> flaccid: that isn't the right mindset for free and open source development. it isn't about 1, it is about the community
[08:43] <nixternal> every document you read pretty much had community involvement
[08:44] <nixternal> oh well, the pillow is yellng my name again
[08:44] <nixternal> g'nite
[08:44] <flaccid> well the community won't stick to the goals of this and i don't have faith in the community to be able to accomplish it, i also don't have time to moderate this kind of project
[08:45] <flaccid> this would be 1 of those nightmares
[08:45] <flaccid> and this isn't development its documenation
[08:45] <flaccid> :)
[08:47] <Burgundavia> flaccid: I have no idea who you are and I have to say, I don't really like your attitude
[08:48] <flaccid> everyone is entitled to their opinion
[08:49] <Burgundavia> however, I missed the first part of your statement
[08:49] <flaccid> its about management, Burgundavia
[08:49] <Burgundavia> what exactly were you trying to say?
[08:49] <flaccid> im trying to say projects are not simple to manage to ensure their goals are met
[08:49] <Madpilot> ...and this is news how, exactly?
[08:49] <Burgundavia> this is not a terribly shocking finding
[08:49] <flaccid> just quality control itself is a lot of time and process
[08:49] <Burgundavia> Madpilot: hmm, we think alike. Are we related? :)
[08:50] <flaccid> i never said it was new
[08:50] <flaccid> i am just saying how it relates to what i want to do
[08:50] <Burgundavia> right
[08:50] <Burgundavia> and what exactly do you want to do?
[08:50] <flaccid> write a handbook for kubuntu with a closed UoD
[08:50] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, you missed the best bit just before you joined here: "<flaccid> thing is i know that if someone else works on it as well or the community does, it won't work"
[08:51] <Burgundavia> again, not terribly shocking
[08:51] <flaccid> i don't really care what you think
[08:51] <Burgundavia> fine
[08:51] <flaccid> i am just stating my opinion. this is freenode last time i checked
[08:51] <Burgundavia> that you can
[08:51] <Burgundavia> but I am wondering what your point was
[08:52] <flaccid> like i said management
[08:53] <flaccid> i don't have time to manage a project
[08:53] <Burgundavia> right
[08:53] <flaccid> i need to make sure it doesn't get out of control
[08:53] <Burgundavia> which, this project?
[08:54] <flaccid> so its easier to do it myself and then share that with the community then it is to collab with the community..
[08:54] <flaccid> well there is no project
[08:54] <Burgundavia> are you talking about this Ubuntu Documentation Team?
[08:54] <flaccid> no
[08:54] <flaccid> i think you missed my conversation from early.
[08:55] <Burgundavia> what was that about?
[08:55] <flaccid> eh im not repeating myself sorry
[08:55] <Burgundavia> ok
[08:56] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, the shortcomings of current user docs, and how a single-handed project will provide far better docs. Or something similar.
[08:56] <Burgundavia> Madpilot: umm, ok
[08:56] <flaccid> no that is incorrect Madpilot
[08:56] <Burgundavia> ah, the great consistency argument
[08:56] <flaccid> well yes consistency is lost with lots of cooks in the kitchen all doing their own thing
[08:57] <Burgundavia> you have never managed any volunteer projects before, have you?
[08:57] <flaccid> yes i have, but like i said i don't have the time with this one
[08:57] <flaccid> and me and the doc project have different direction
[08:57] <Burgundavia> hmm, heard that one before
[08:57] <Burgundavia> Madpilot: I think it was I who said it
[08:58] <Burgundavia> and I am still here
[08:58] <Burgundavia> hey willvdl, long time no chat
[08:58] <willvdl> Burgundavia, indeed
[08:58] <willvdl> I've been on a long leave in S.America
[08:58] <Burgundavia> ahh
[08:59] <Burgundavia> you still working for Canonical?
[08:59] <willvdl> yip
[08:59] <willvdl> coming to UDS?
[08:59] <Burgundavia> thanks to your employer, yep
[08:59] <flaccid> because what i want is different from what this project is doing, i think i will do my fork. thanks for the chat.
[08:59] <Burgundavia> flaccid: have fun
[08:59] <Madpilot> flaccid, have a forking good time.
[08:59] <flaccid> i surely will, you might thank me one day
[09:00] <willvdl> Burgundavia, great. UES as well?
[09:00] <Burgundavia> sadly no
[09:00] <willvdl> pity, I could do with some marketing/doc folks
[09:00] <Burgundavia> convince your employer :)
[09:00] <flaccid> haha, never say never, especially when flaccid is involved!
[09:00] <Burgundavia> my Edubuntu work has been very limited
[09:01] <Burgundavia> wow, he must have been high
[09:02] <Madpilot> "This is your brain. This is your brain on docs. Any questions?"
[09:04] <willvdl> nope. maybe that's the point...
[09:05] <Burgundavia> you missed the fun part
[09:05] <Burgundavia> I mostly did too
[09:19] <Madpilot> night all
[09:20] <mpt> Wow, harshness
[09:20] <Burgundavia> hey mpt
[09:22] <mpt> hi Burgundavia
[09:22] <mpt> I don't think "too many docs" is a problem
[09:22] <Burgundavia> unless they are bad docs, no
[09:23] <mpt> yes, depending on what "bad" means
[09:23] <Burgundavia> misleading
[09:23] <Burgundavia> did you see that techalign/pioneerlinux is now promoting and funding automatix?
[09:24] <mpt> Never heard of either of them
[09:25] <Burgundavia> they do a version of kubuntu
[09:25] <mpt> Let the lawsuits begin!
[09:32] <mpt> Actually I've never seen Automatix before, I'm just giggling at the screenshot in <https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Automatix>
[09:33] <mpt> It really has a toolbar with only one button, and a set of tabs with only one tab?
[09:34] <Burgundavia> possibly
[05:20] <ubotu> New bug: #106594 in xubuntu-docs "Xubuntu Desktop have examples files that shouldnt be there" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/106594
[05:24] <jono> hey
[05:24] <jono> mdke: ping
[05:24] <mdke> jono: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
[05:26] <jono> any core docs people here?
[05:56] <bdmurray> the copyright in the kubuntu hanbook at least doesn't have 2007
[07:24] <shirish> hi all, I have couple of questions about the wiki if somebody can respond?
[07:29] <shirish> It's to do with how the wiki is written, there are no time-stamps so its difficult to know when somebody wrote something
[08:11] <nixternal> jono: what's up?
[08:11] <nixternal> 10:26:02 [      jono]  any core docs people here?