=== Jordan_U [n=jordan@h-68-164-85-27.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jjesse [n=jjesse@216.132.62.5] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ubotu [n=ubotu@ubuntu/bot/ubotu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sladen [i=paul@starsky.19inch.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Admiral_Chicago [n=freddy@ubuntu/member/admiral-chicago] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt_ [n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt] has joined #ubuntu-doc === philwyett [n=philip@bb-87-81-146-45.ukonline.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-doc === moowiz2020 [n=steven@pool-71-117-95-184.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === moowiz2020 [n=steven@pool-71-117-95-184.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === moowiz2020 [n=steven@pool-71-117-95-184.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Ex-Chat"] === moowiz2020 [n=steven@pool-71-117-95-184.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:29] hello? [04:29] hello [04:30] hi === effie_jayx [n=l3ap@190.37.175.250] has joined #ubuntu-doc === bodhi_zazen [n=bodhizaz@stpete.helmednet.org] has joined #ubuntu-doc === tonyyarusso [n=anthony@ubuntu/member/tonyyarusso] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Madpilot [n=brian@ubuntu/member/madpilot] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:57] does anyone here think that the doc team should have another meeting? === kestrel [n=zen_love@wt1.core.wireless.fsr.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:11] moowiz2020: in the past year I think there was one meeting === flaccid [n=flaccid@dev.ionata.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:24] hey guys === flaccid [n=flaccid@dev.ionata.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:28] oi flaccid === zenrox [i=zenrox@pool-71-115-220-136.spknwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:29] yes [05:32] nixternal: ? [05:39] just sayin' hi [05:40] Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r4121 /trunk/ (5 files in 4 dirs): spring cleaning - don't worry, unused is in branch if we need it - makefile will build - converted release name, version, and date [05:40] hehe hi there [05:40] anyone see my mail on the mailing list? === Admiral_Chicago [n=freddy@ubuntu/member/admiral-chicago] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Stephen [i=Moowiz20@pool-71-117-95-184.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Moowiz2020 [i=Moowiz20@pool-71-117-95-184.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Admiral_Chicago [n=freddy@ubuntu/member/admiral-chicago] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Annn0nym0us [i=Annn0nym@pool-71-117-95-184.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:28] does anyone ever talk in here? [06:29] No. [06:29] k [06:29] just checking [06:30] it's been quiet lately, but there really is activity here aside from the bot sometimes. [06:30] ok [06:34] Madpilot, why are there people in here if no one talks at all? [06:35] we lurk === tonyyarusso moos [07:07] id like to talk about the lack of a handbook [07:07] too many doco resources [07:07] disadvantages of community based w/ too many cooks in the kitchen [07:10] lurking is fun [07:10] we talk during the dev cycle in here big time [07:10] we are finished, taking a break, enjoying life [07:10] for about 3 more months, thenn all hell will break loose once more [07:17] seriously [07:17] nothing more than a few odd bugs a couple times a week [07:17] nobody would like to discuss my topic? [07:18] didn't you post to the ML? [07:18] I think I already answered it [07:18] nobody reads them [07:19] topic based is the way of the future [07:19] GNOME and KDE are both migrating there now as we speak [07:22] i disagree [07:22] topic based allows for many entries on the same topic [07:23] not exactly a concise way [07:23] an official wiki with many user's opinions on how to do something [07:24] topic based makes it easier to pinpoint an answer [07:25] the handbook is find for a webpage, but not for a shipped document [07:25] s/find/fine === xipietotec [n=jackfros@cpe-67-49-247-144.dc.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:39] topic based with a wiki makes it harder to find. you have to search. [07:39] and then go through all the results to find one that works [07:40] have a look at the freebsd handbook. everything you need is in the TOC === bronson_ [n=bronson@adsl-76-202-197-80.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === xipietotec [n=jackfros@cpe-67-49-247-144.dc.res.rr.com] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Ex-Chat"] [07:48] i also don't know what you mean by topic based. a handbook with TOC is topic based [07:49] i dont know what you mean that its not ok for a shipped document other OSs/distros go well [07:50] well those will eventually change with the topic based help systems that KDE and GNOME are working on [07:51] what are these topic based systems? can you show me? [07:51] I wonder if the FreeBSD handbook could be anymore cluttered [07:51] I forgot what the GNOME one is called, but there is a spec and implementation detail at freedesktop.org [07:51] KHelpCenter will change with the strigi implementation [07:52] well freebsd has different kinds of users to ubuntu, so i can understand why some interpret it as cluttered [07:52] I have been using FreeBSD for a long time and this is a first that I have really looked at it [07:52] can you provide me any links to check it out, or is it just a pipe dream atm? [07:52] thats weird because the handbook is like a bible to most freebsd users [07:53] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TopicBasedHelp [07:54] if you follow some of the links in there you will find more info nt he topic based help [07:55] also you have to remember that Ubuntu is focusing on accessibility and surveys and field studies have shown that topic based is better for the majority of the users [07:55] topic based help still has all of the info that the desktop guide had, just structured better [07:55] http://www.gnome.org/~shaunm/quack/mallard.xml [07:55] that is the gnome project, dunno if they have updated that page in a while [07:56] well i am a main helper in #kubuntu and its a mess [07:56] but last I heard it is no longer vaporware [07:56] what is a mess? [07:56] how hard is it for a user to hit "Kubuntu System Documentation" in KHelpCenter? [07:56] there they pick the topic they are looking for [07:56] if it isn't there, there are links to other locations to search [07:57] is this in existance yet? [07:57] seeing as I did the entire Kubuntu setup which was aided by KDE usability developers [07:57] flaccid: in Feisty yes [07:57] right [07:57] well nobody knows about it.. [07:57] how do i do it [07:58] it is in KHelpCenter, just like the old dekstop guide was [07:58] the only difference you will see is the index layout === flaccid goes to test [07:59] seems like application manuals are missing [07:59] for what? [08:00] for KHelpCenter [08:00] they are here for me [08:00] it says index creation finished, yet it failed [08:00] sounds like you have boog [08:00] don't use the search feature [08:00] and the index doesn't look very easy to navigate anyway [08:01] it is supposed to use htdig, but since that is a security nightmare, we don't have it implemented [08:01] KHelpCenter and the index is KDE [08:01] the one link up top for Kubuntu documents [08:01] that is us [08:01] KHelpCenter will be rewritten for KDE 4 [08:01] this thing is pretty much a guide or handbook anyway [08:02] cept its offline [08:02] if someone can navigate the internet, then they can navigate KHelpCenter [08:02] the internet is not an easy thing to navigate [08:02] granted I don't think most people care to read about kioslaves ;) [08:03] well the TOC needs to be logical [08:03] which one? [08:03] any [08:03] did you take a look at the Kubuntu System Documenation? [08:03] so kubuntu 7.04 system documentation is basically what i wanted [08:03] yup [08:03] right im' glade we got to at least that point [08:03] it has been there since Warty :) [08:04] now let me find the issues with this :p [08:04] and the community has never known.... [08:04] oh, there are plenty of issues [08:04] like modems, wifi, and binary blobs [08:04] I refuse to document that information because 1) it isn't free, and 2) it is all over the wiki and the internet [08:04] is there any reason why you didn't suggest in your reply email for me to add to this doco ? [08:05] well there is no more adding to Fesity docs, what you see is what you get until October 2007 [08:05] like vnc can just go in networking section.. [08:05] nixternal, no use it being all over the wiki and the Internet if people can't get on the Internet in the first place :-) [08:05] mpt: you realize it would take us a year to document modems [08:05] I spoke to the linmodems people and they said point to us, don't waste your time documenting it [08:06] there are over 5000 pages for modem installation (winmodems) [08:06] alone [08:06] so can i just create some new docs go in there for next release? [08:07] feel free to write something up, yes [08:07] but there is of course no guarantee [08:07] probably wiki-fy it first [08:07] is this offline doco system going to be accessible online? [08:08] also remember that with the topic based system, we went with the most frequent issues or help topics people searched for [08:08] flaccid: already is [08:08] http://doc.ubuntu.com [08:08] it will eventually make its way to https://help.ubuntu.com under the 7.04 tab [08:08] is it possible to provide someone with an offline link? [08:08] help:/ [08:08] help:/kubuntu/office [08:09] The requested URL /kubuntu/C/index.html was not found on this server. [08:09] they can type that in Konqui, or if they want they can setup firefox to to do help:/ links, which is under help:/kubuntu/internet I believe [08:09] or maybe help:/kubuntu/getting-help [08:09] interesting [08:10] help:/kubuntu/ There is no documentation available for /kubuntu/index.html. [08:11] and how to get the link of the offline page to give to someone? [08:11] right click the link in KHelpCenter and copy it or in Konqueror you can get he help index by going to help:/kubuntu/sysdocs-index [08:11] which I am glad you just did the help:/kubuntu [08:12] I will do something different for 7.10 [08:12] can't work out how to get link of current page [08:13] ie. no link [08:13] and http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/ [08:13] that is the staging server [08:14] so its not live yet? [08:14] ya, probably no docs there yet since I just set that up today [08:14] ok [08:14] live will be located on help.ubuntu.com [08:14] doc.ubuntu.com is a great way to follow development [08:15] and the docs will be for free stuff only? [08:15] ie. no doc for non-free like mp3 - that would be on the wiki? [08:16] flaccid: there is mp3 stuff in there that carried over from the old docs [08:16] when I say non free I mean like NVidia and ATI [08:16] that is another documenting nightmare [08:17] hmm ok [08:17] there is a lot of nightmares [08:17] yup, and the wiki makes them worse, and so does the internet, but I am pointing them to it [08:17] NVidia and ATI documenation on our wiki is so bad I don't even look at it [08:18] hmm [08:18] at this point im thinking what i want excludes a lot of things you guys dont want [08:18] and I have gone through in the past and fixed it just to have some moron go back and change it just because it works "that way" for his card [08:18] exclude like what? [08:18] yeah this another reason why i dislike wikis [08:18] I want to build on what is already there [08:18] things like non-free and video [08:19] seeing as Gusty (7.10) is going to be about free, I would have to rethink it [08:19] just because I don't support it and I won't document it, doesn't mean that you can't :) [08:20] plus, 7.10 is going to be the last of KDE 3.5.x, so all of the documentation will be rewritten for gusty+1 [08:20] hmm [08:20] at this point im thinking of making my own complete handbook and make the information free to share. we just don't have the same direction and requirements [08:21] you of course are free to do that [08:21] although reinventing the wheel is never the best thing to do [08:21] this is not reinventing the wheel, because the wheel does not exist [08:21] you can't go by personal direction in a community project either, it is tough to do [08:22] just ask mdke and mpt about how much jjesse and I argued about how silly topic based help was :) [08:22] i know, but nobody has made what i want to make [08:22] oh the wheel exists, it is just in 404382084 locations [08:22] hehe yes exactly my point [08:23] options is not a good thing. 1 reliable solution for a problem is. [08:23] we are supposed to be looking into a single help portal as well in the near future from what I have been told, so that should be interesting [08:23] 1 reliable solution for Linux is damn near impossible [08:23] look at the Linux documentation project, they can't even get it all [08:23] and by the time you have it, it has changed once or twice [08:24] plus our system documentation is geared more towards someone who is newer to the Linux world [08:24] someone that knows how to search a wiki or the internet never hits the help button anyways [08:27] alrighty, my pillow just hollored my name ;) [08:27] flaccid: I would love to work with ya for 7.10 on documentation if you are up to it [08:28] come up with a proposal like thing and we can see what we can do === makkk [n=apm714@borat.ece.northwestern.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === makkk [n=apm714@borat.ece.northwestern.edu] has left #ubuntu-doc [] [08:38] yeah im still thinking about my approach [08:38] but i believe that myself can write a good handbook [08:38] thing is i know that if someone else works on it as well or the community does, it won't work === Burgundavia [n=corey@ubuntu/member/burgundavia] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:43] flaccid: that isn't the right mindset for free and open source development. it isn't about 1, it is about the community [08:43] every document you read pretty much had community involvement [08:44] oh well, the pillow is yellng my name again [08:44] g'nite [08:44] well the community won't stick to the goals of this and i don't have faith in the community to be able to accomplish it, i also don't have time to moderate this kind of project [08:45] this would be 1 of those nightmares [08:45] and this isn't development its documenation [08:45] :) [08:47] flaccid: I have no idea who you are and I have to say, I don't really like your attitude [08:48] everyone is entitled to their opinion [08:49] however, I missed the first part of your statement [08:49] its about management, Burgundavia [08:49] what exactly were you trying to say? [08:49] im trying to say projects are not simple to manage to ensure their goals are met [08:49] ...and this is news how, exactly? [08:49] this is not a terribly shocking finding [08:49] just quality control itself is a lot of time and process [08:49] Madpilot: hmm, we think alike. Are we related? :) [08:50] i never said it was new [08:50] i am just saying how it relates to what i want to do [08:50] right [08:50] and what exactly do you want to do? [08:50] write a handbook for kubuntu with a closed UoD [08:50] Burgundavia, you missed the best bit just before you joined here: " thing is i know that if someone else works on it as well or the community does, it won't work" [08:51] again, not terribly shocking [08:51] i don't really care what you think [08:51] fine [08:51] i am just stating my opinion. this is freenode last time i checked [08:51] that you can [08:51] but I am wondering what your point was [08:52] like i said management [08:53] i don't have time to manage a project [08:53] right [08:53] i need to make sure it doesn't get out of control [08:53] which, this project? [08:54] so its easier to do it myself and then share that with the community then it is to collab with the community.. [08:54] well there is no project [08:54] are you talking about this Ubuntu Documentation Team? [08:54] no [08:54] i think you missed my conversation from early. [08:55] what was that about? [08:55] eh im not repeating myself sorry [08:55] ok [08:56] Burgundavia, the shortcomings of current user docs, and how a single-handed project will provide far better docs. Or something similar. [08:56] Madpilot: umm, ok [08:56] no that is incorrect Madpilot [08:56] ah, the great consistency argument [08:56] well yes consistency is lost with lots of cooks in the kitchen all doing their own thing [08:57] you have never managed any volunteer projects before, have you? [08:57] yes i have, but like i said i don't have the time with this one [08:57] and me and the doc project have different direction [08:57] hmm, heard that one before [08:57] Madpilot: I think it was I who said it [08:58] and I am still here === willvdl [n=will@dsl-241-15-27.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:58] hey willvdl, long time no chat [08:58] Burgundavia, indeed [08:58] I've been on a long leave in S.America [08:58] ahh [08:59] you still working for Canonical? [08:59] yip [08:59] coming to UDS? [08:59] thanks to your employer, yep [08:59] because what i want is different from what this project is doing, i think i will do my fork. thanks for the chat. [08:59] flaccid: have fun [08:59] flaccid, have a forking good time. [08:59] i surely will, you might thank me one day [09:00] Burgundavia, great. UES as well? [09:00] sadly no [09:00] pity, I could do with some marketing/doc folks [09:00] convince your employer :) [09:00] haha, never say never, especially when flaccid is involved! [09:00] my Edubuntu work has been very limited === flaccid [n=flaccid@dev.ionata.com] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Konversation] [09:01] wow, he must have been high [09:02] "This is your brain. This is your brain on docs. Any questions?" [09:04] nope. maybe that's the point... [09:05] you missed the fun part [09:05] I mostly did too [09:19] night all [09:20] Wow, harshness [09:20] hey mpt [09:22] hi Burgundavia [09:22] I don't think "too many docs" is a problem [09:22] unless they are bad docs, no [09:23] yes, depending on what "bad" means [09:23] misleading [09:23] did you see that techalign/pioneerlinux is now promoting and funding automatix? [09:24] Never heard of either of them [09:25] they do a version of kubuntu [09:25] Let the lawsuits begin! [09:32] Actually I've never seen Automatix before, I'm just giggling at the screenshot in [09:33] It really has a toolbar with only one button, and a set of tabs with only one tab? [09:34] possibly === willvdl_ [n=will@vc-196-207-41-253.3g.vodacom.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === willvdl_ [n=will@vc-196-207-41-253.3g.vodacom.co.za] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Leaving"] === joachim-n [n=joachim@ACD1FF6B.ipt.aol.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === willvdl_ [n=will@vc-196-207-41-253.3g.vodacom.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === willvdl_ [n=will@vc-196-207-41-253.3g.vodacom.co.za] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Leaving"] === omgponiezlol [n=freddy@st074039212101.monm.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === TLE [n=kenneth@217.74.211.126] has joined #ubuntu-doc === willvdl [n=will@vc-196-207-41-253.3g.vodacom.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === willvdl [n=will@vc-196-207-41-253.3g.vodacom.co.za] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Leaving"] === Gwaihir [n=Gwaihir@mail.foredil.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc === philwyett [n=philip@bb-87-81-146-45.ukonline.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-doc === WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@azevedo.astro.up.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc === willvdl [n=Will@vc-196-207-41-253.3g.vodacom.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Knightlust [n=DaxSolom@203.87.200.214] has joined #ubuntu-doc === tonyy [n=anthony@ubuntu/member/tonyyarusso] has joined #ubuntu-doc === kestrel [n=zen_love@wt1.core.wireless.fsr.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === bodhi_zazen [n=bodhizaz@stpete.helmednet.org] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt] has joined #ubuntu-doc === glatzor [n=sebi@p57AED677.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === silwol [n=silwol@teacheradsl245.eduhi.at] has joined #ubuntu-doc === tuxmaniac [n=aanjhan@unaffiliated/tuxmaniac] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:20] New bug: #106594 in xubuntu-docs "Xubuntu Desktop have examples files that shouldnt be there" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/106594 === jono [n=jono@ubuntu/member/jono] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:24] hey [05:24] mdke: ping [05:24] jono: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back) [05:26] any core docs people here? === Nightfall_ [n=chatzill@129-79-202-237.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:56] the copyright in the kubuntu hanbook at least doesn't have 2007 === bronson_ [n=bronson@66.237.74.66.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === shirish [n=shirish@59.95.27.166] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:24] hi all, I have couple of questions about the wiki if somebody can respond? [07:29] It's to do with how the wiki is written, there are no time-stamps so its difficult to know when somebody wrote something === shirish [n=shirish@59.95.27.166] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === effie_jayx [n=l3ap@190.37.175.250] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:11] jono: what's up? [08:11] 10:26:02 [ jono] any core docs people here? === greg_g [n=greg@c-75-72-154-21.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Gwaihir [n=Gwaihir@ubuntu/member/gwaihir] has joined #ubuntu-doc === philwyett [n=philip@bb-87-81-146-45.ukonline.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-doc === somerville32 [n=somervil@ubuntu/member/somerville32] has joined #ubuntu-doc === bluekuja [n=andy@ubuntu/member/bluekuja] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sacater [n=sacater@colchester-lug/member/sacater] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ryanakca [n=ryanakca@ubuntu/member/ryanakca] has joined #ubuntu-doc === WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@azevedo.astro.up.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mdke [n=matt@212-139-102-47.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc