[07:43] <BFTD> isn't it duuku?
[08:53] <imbrandon> @schedule US/Chicago
[08:53] <imbrandon> @schedule Chicago
[08:53] <ubotu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 17 Apr 10:00: Kernel Team | 17 Apr 15:00: Community Council | 18 Apr 07:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 10:00: Development Team | 24 Apr 15:00: Technical Board | 25 Apr 15:00: Edubuntu
[12:49] <SWAT> @schedule amsterdam
[12:49] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 17 Apr 17:00: Kernel Team | 17 Apr 22:00: Community Council | 18 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 17:00: Development Team | 24 Apr 22:00: Technical Board | 25 Apr 22:00: Edubuntu
[02:20] <ranf> hi
[02:20] <nolander_101>  hi
[03:22] <zul> @schedule montreal
[03:22] <ubotu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 17 Apr 11:00: Kernel Team | 17 Apr 16:00: Community Council | 18 Apr 08:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 11:00: Development Team | 24 Apr 16:00: Technical Board | 25 Apr 16:00: Edubuntu
[05:00] <BenC> So, we're all here...
[05:00] <BenC> Agenda is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting although it is a bit out-of-date
[05:00] <BenC> kernel-release schedule...uh, released :)
[05:01] <BenC> bug status...stable, but still reviewing for post-release updates
[05:02] <BenC> I think basically we're at a point where we can move on to gutsy topics, and the new kernel tree
[05:02] <rtg> Lets cleanup the wireless stuff.
[05:02] <BenC> well, the tree is going to change considerably
[05:02] <BenC> stock kernel is going to be in ubuntu-2.6.git
[05:03] <BenC> all extra drivers are being moved to a linux-ubuntu-modules package
[05:03] <pkl_> the current tree will be used for any updates to Feisty?
[05:03] <pkl_> The new tree will only be for Gutsy?
[05:03] <BenC> pkl_: ubuntu-feisty.git is for feisty security and stable release updates
[05:03] <BenC> right
[05:04] <BenC> ubuntu-2.6.git right now is just a clone of linux-2.6.git
[05:04] <zul> im still mulling over the virtualization infrastructure stuff
[05:04] <BenC> I'll push that to the public kernel.org repo soon
[05:04] <BenC> zul: probably best to hang tight till I get the build infrastructure in place
[05:04] <zul> BenC: no problem..
[05:05] <BenC> at this point, I have a local .diff of the delta between ubuntu-feisty.git and upstream code
[05:05] <BenC> I'm merging patches into for-linus branch in preparation for the 2.6.22 merge window with Linus
[05:06] <BenC> but we'll be sending out the patches sooner than that to get good feedback
[05:06] <pkl_> how much of this delta will be pushed upstream?
[05:06] <BenC> my intention is to get all of it pushed upstream
[05:06] <mjg59> Are you differentiating between core code and external drivers?
[05:06] <BenC> the current diff is only ~65k, and a lot of that is toshiba_acpi and DSDT-acpi-initramfs
[05:07] <mjg59> Ok
[05:07] <BenC> mjg59: yes
[05:07] <mjg59> Len's consistently refused the DSDT-acpi-initramfs patch
[05:07] <BenC> I haven't touched the ubuntu/* stuff yet
[05:07] <BenC> I know, but it's so bogus to do so
[05:07] <mjg59> Indeed
[05:07] <BenC> we allow DSDT to be built into the kernel, so there's no argument for not allowing manual DSDT override
[05:08] <BenC> I think it's the initramfs early prep that's ugly, but unavoidable
[05:09] <BenC> Anyway, I'll post my current diff, and keep it updated as I put things in for-linus...need to push that branch out to the ubuntu-2.6.git anyway
[05:10] <fabbione> BenC: question... now that you want to have ubuntu-2.6.git basically vanilla and linux-ubuntu-modules...
[05:10] <fabbione> what about patches that affects deeply vanilla?
[05:10] <fabbione> are we going to fork the code and slam it in ubuntu-modules?
[05:10] <fabbione> and if so how to we managed changes to core parts of the kernel that needs to be inline?
[05:10] <BenC> in severe cases yes...minor updates (like some of the ocfs2 stable patches) we can keep in the vanilla tree
[05:11] <BenC> I'm going to be extremely tight on what goes in there...mostly to keep myself in check
[05:11] <BenC> I've always been pretty liberal with syncing to things like drivers/ata/, and most times for good reason, but we always end up getting bitten with some unforseen bugs
[05:12] <BenC> check-ins for ubuntu-2.6 will most times go through a two-signed-off-by process
[05:12] <BenC> even for me :)
[05:13] <fabbione>     Signed-off-by: Ben Collins <bcollins@ubuntu.com>
[05:13] <BenC> exceptions will be things like debian/* updates and trivial s/KERN_ERR/KERN_INFO/ types things
[05:13] <fabbione>     Signed-off-by: Angie Collins <acollins@ubuntu.com>
[05:13] <BenC> lol, busted
[05:14] <BenC> I'll be writing up a more thorough explanation of the gutsy tree this week
[05:14] <BenC> update wiki, etc.
[05:14] <rtg> I assume jgarzik will choose 2.6.22 as the next stable tree. Why wouldn't we track it almost exactly for the next 3 or 4 months?
[05:15] <fabbione> rtg: because users will never be satisfied without their tons of extra drivers
[05:15] <BenC> rtg: we'll get it by naturally following linux-2.6, so to avoid delta and crud, we'll just wait for it
[05:15] <fabbione> or tons of extra patches to gain half FPS out of glxgears
[05:15] <BenC> rtg: if he syncs for 2.6.22, then we'll get it within 3-4 weeks anyway
[05:16] <BenC> fabbione: I need for gutsy's kernel process to be an excercise in how gutsy+1 will go (since it maybe the next LTS)
[05:16] <BenC> so we may end up saying "Sorry, we can't take in a huge chunk of code for drivers/char/drm/ updates because we need the current code to remain stable"
[05:17] <kylem> did you revert the drm stuff for feisty, btw?
[05:17] <fabbione> BenC: oh yeah. i get your idea.. that's not the issue... i have the feeling it's going to clash with other kind of requests like .. we need to support my Bluetooth dildo kind of thing
[05:17] <BenC> where as before it was like "Sure, I'll git-pull the entire damn thing"
[05:17] <BenC> kylem: I reverted my initial sync, but then dropped back to 2.6.21's stuff
[05:18] <kylem> ok.
[05:18] <BenC> fabbione: bluetooth dildo == Wishlist...want me to open a bug for you? :)
[05:19] <fabbione> BenC: sure thing :)
[05:20] <BenC> so a big portion of the roadmap for gutsy revolves around these changes in the build system, and kernel maint policies
[05:20] <BenC> some of these things will get discusses at UDS because they could benefit from input outside the kernel-team (release managers, archive maint, etc)
[05:21] <BenC> some of them will just get done (ditching kernel-package, O= build system, linux-source split from linux-ubuntu-modules, etc.)
[05:23] <BenC> Ah, another bug area we want to fill is validation testing of the kernel build
[05:23] <mjg59> Well, the difficulty is in ensuring that we don't regress in breadth of hardware support
[05:23] <BenC> things like module.alias checking, alias overlaps, etc
[05:23] <BenC> mjg59: exactly
[05:24] <mjg59> And sometimes, that's likely to require us to modify core code
[05:24] <BenC> we already have a trivial module checker in feisty that makes sure we don't have modules go missing between builds
[05:25] <BenC> mjg59: I don't think we have any patches in feisty like that...things we have to core code can either be synced upstream now, or if it's major, pushed to linux-ubuntu-modules
[05:25] <BenC> toshiba_acpi is one I think might end up that way
[05:25] <mjg59> Well, strictly toshiba_acpi should be rewritten to generate input events
[05:26] <BenC> but the likelyhood of that happening considering the acpi-event patch has been around over a year? :)
[05:26] <mjg59> Depends on how much spare time I have
[05:27] <mjg59> It's not likely to be merged in its current state
[05:27] <BenC> yeah, I recall the lkml discussions about the current patch
[05:28] <BenC> toshiba_acpi still has a bunch of stuff to be compatible with our own toshset package though
[05:28] <kylem> or someone else could just fix it up...
[05:29] <mjg59> toshiba_acpi as it currently stands is a bit of a screaming nightmare
[05:29] <mjg59> And the old maintainer doesn't handle it any more
[05:29] <mjg59> I should just take over
[05:29] <BenC> guess we should move on...
[05:30] <BenC> feisty security/updates
[05:30] <BenC> we already know what's in git
[05:30] <BenC> are there any patches we knew of in lp right now that need to go into post-release feisty kernel?
[05:30] <BenC> I know we need some more id's moved from ata_piix to piix
[05:31] <BenC> bug #84603
[05:31] <ubotu> Malone bug 84603 in linux-source-2.6.20 "Hard disk I/O randomly freezes when hald is running and optical drive is empty" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/84603
[05:31] <zul> the microsoft keyboard patch is one I can think of
[05:31] <BenC> there's a workaround, so not critical for release
[05:31] <rtg> I'm close to figuring out bug #103768
[05:31] <ubotu> Malone bug 103768 in linux-source-2.6.20 "softmac and network-manager cite unreconcilable differences" [Critical,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/103768
[05:32] <pkl_> tifm driver, moving from 0.7 to 0. again (reverted sometime last month)
[05:32] <BenC> rtg: don't forget ubuntu/net/wireless/wext-old.c ...it's the most likely area of the problem
[05:32] <pkl_> 0. -> 0.8
[05:32] <rtg> BenC: I'm leaving tracks all over it trying to figure out the race.
[05:33] <BenC> rtg: compare the code to what's in net/core/wireless.c
[05:33] <BenC> might give some clues
[05:33] <fabbione> BenC: the OCFS2 stuff please
[05:33] <BenC> pkl_: did I revert that by mistake when I updated tifm/mmc?
[05:33] <fabbione> (for feisty)
[05:33] <BenC> fabbione: In git, so queued
[05:33] <pkl_> BenC: yes
[05:33] <fabbione> BenC: cool
[05:34] <BenC> pkl_: ok, shoot me later...can you prepare a diff to bring things back?
[05:34] <pkl_> BenC: yes
[05:34] <BenC> as of now, any patches proposed for feisty (other than embargoed security patches) should go through kernel-team@lists.ubuntu.com
[05:37] <BenC> I think that's all the main topics I had to discuss
[05:37] <BenC> anyone have anything they want to bring up?
[05:38] <BenC> Anyone have comments on the feisty kernel release, how the crisis was handled, addition suggestions for improvement, or suggestions for gutsy kernel, specs, etc...
[05:38] <BenC> ?
[05:38] <fabbione> hmm i somehow have one...
[05:38] <pkl_> only, wondering it's normally like that at release time :)
[05:39] <fabbione> note that this is only my point of view..
[05:39] <fabbione> pkl_: no we have seen far worst at release time
[05:39] <BenC> pkl_: usually not that bad...we always have a crisis, but never 5 in a row :)
[05:39] <BenC> strictly speaking for the kernel side of things
[05:39] <fabbione> but i think now that the kernel team is growing, you should be able to handover stuff between members in a slightly easier way
[05:39] <BenC> fabbione is right, we've had some bad release crisis before
[05:39] <fabbione> and in case of disasters like this one
[05:40] <BenC> fabbione: that's on my personal agenda...handing off more of my responsibilities
[05:40] <fabbione> with a 4 people kernel team, you should be able to cover the 24h without issues
[05:40] <fabbione> BenC: yeps.. i am just saying what i think i saw
[05:40] <fabbione> it's up to you guys how much you want to weight it
[05:40] <fabbione> i don't expect you to follow my directions ;)
[05:40] <BenC> well, we can't cover 24hours since pkl sleeps late, kyle and I are both EST, and Tim is only 2 hours behind us :)
[05:41] <fabbione> BenC: well that's where i want to go..
[05:41] <BenC> plus tim wakes up early
[05:41] <fabbione> if there is a crisis, i think there is the option for people in the team to shift a few hours around
[05:41] <fabbione> and cover almost the 24h
[05:41] <BenC> fabbione: might be a good idea for us to spread our during major milestones
[05:41] <BenC> s/our/out/
[05:41] <fabbione> i know that 75% of kernel team is US based but most of the distro team is EU
[05:42] <BenC> beta and RC seem like good points for that
[05:42] <cjwatson> pkl_: I'm in the process of writing up a document/rant/whatever on past Ubuntu release panics
[05:42] <fabbione> that somehow clashes a bit when there are situations like this one
[05:42] <fabbione> in which we need to be more in sync than ever
[05:42] <cjwatson> pkl_: mostly so that people experiencing it for the first time don't feel quite so much like the universe is collapsing
[05:42] <fabbione> BenC: yeps.. just to have a Plan B crisis for when it's strictly required.
[05:42] <fabbione> BenC: i am not saying you should be 24/7 always
[05:42] <fabbione> that would be an insane expectation
[05:43] <BenC> fabbione: bad thing is, most of the team gets up after EU, and because of the flow, kernel team needs to fix things in order for EU folks to get things done(cd runs)
[05:43] <BenC> so it gets bad for people like cjwatson and Mithrandir
[05:43] <cjwatson> there was a case during this crisis where I ended up trying to hack up test kernels because nobody else was around and I couldn't find the current state
[05:43] <cjwatson> I'd like that not to happen again
[05:43] <cjwatson> (and mdz was desperate to get progress)
[05:44] <BenC> cjwatson: maybe a crisis center we can keep updated and concise for things like this
[05:44] <BenC> s/crisis center/wiki page/
[05:44] <fabbione> BenC: yes i do understand that.. nothing stops one of the kernel team to be part of the release process and be able to pre-build CD at the end of the US shift right before EU wakes up
[05:44] <cjwatson> BenC: lag between kernel team and CD team is several hours, so had it been the other end of the day it would have been OK
[05:44] <BenC> cjwatson: right
[05:44] <cjwatson> it gets bad when you get stuff done around your early afternoon that needs to be pushed through urgently
[05:45] <fabbione> anyway it was just the way i felt it.. nobody should take it personal or feel bad because i know you have still done an amazing job
[05:45] <BenC> we could definitely see about two kernel team members working more evening shifts to do things, and catch the EU folks before handing off to the other kernel team members
[05:45] <pkl_> There was a number of times I didn't know what had happen to the kernel overnight (after I'd gone to bed), but was being asked as I was the only kernel team member around.
[05:45] <cjwatson> pkl_: yeah, in those cases I had a feeling you simply didn't have the information but had to ask
[05:46] <BenC> we should do a better job of handing off info and state, for sure
[05:46] <cjwatson> next time, I would like things to be arranged such that you do have the information
[05:46] <BenC> post mortum will be a hot topics at UDS :)
[05:46] <cjwatson> fabbione: it wouldn't hurt to have a session at UDS on rapid change management - how to get from kernel git commit to CDs as fast as possible
[05:46] <BenC> generally, I'm hoping process changes for development cycle will reduce the crisis level altogether, but a good crisis policy is required
[05:46] <cjwatson> perhaps informally
[05:47] <fabbione> cjwatson: sounds like an idea.. it would also help for people to be more familiar with git
[05:47] <fabbione> as it is now it's only a very few of us
[05:47] <rtg> kylem has offered to lead a git bootcamp at UDS.
[05:49] <fabbione> rtg: yes i know.. it would be more interesting to see how many people will actually show up :)
[05:49] <BenC> cjwatson: what can we do about making it easier to get urgent kernel uploads into the buildd's faster?
[05:49] <fabbione> git == kernel in some people mind and kernel == evil
[05:49] <cjwatson> BenC: speaking of distributing responsibilities, would it be possible to distribute the task of preparing feisty bits for upstream merge and setting up the gutsy tree?
[05:50] <BenC> cjwatson: yes, we discussed that at the beginning
[05:50] <cjwatson> BenC: even if it's really only a one-person task, I think that would be useful to increase the team's familiarity with what we've changed versus upstream
[05:50] <cjwatson> ok
[05:50] <cjwatson> I read through but I guess I missed that you were distributing it
[05:50] <BenC> however gutsy tree will be new build system, so it's going to be in flux for a couple weeks
[05:51] <BenC> I think I can push off the upstream merge entirely to someone else, if anyone is interested
[05:51] <fabbione> BenC: i strongly reccomends to get a gutsy upload for toolchain soonish and change the build system immediatly after
[05:51] <cjwatson> BenC: urgent kernel uploads> I think that really comes under Soyuz improvements, which will hopefully be a bit easier now that we have two Soyuz hackers again
[05:51] <fabbione> BenC: or at least coordinate that with doko
[05:51] <BenC> fabbione: how about I just get you a linux-libc-dev upload out of the tree, no kernel images
[05:51] <cjwatson> significant publisher speed improvements are due to land with PPA
[05:51] <fabbione> BenC: it's an option.. but talk to doko to make sure it's ok with him
[05:52] <fabbione> BenC: glibc should be fine with the current running kernels on the buildd.. i am not sure about all arches tho
[05:52] <BenC> cjwatson: do you think ppa will be a good alternative to the way we were doing things with test kernels (build locally, upload to rookery)?
[05:52] <doko> BenC: I would appreate it if the kernel headers could stay stable until new glibc/binutils/gcc are in the archive.
[05:52] <doko> s/appreate/appreciate/
[05:53] <BenC> doko: so you don't want me to upload anything yet?
[05:53] <cjwatson> BenC: I think the immediate intention is more for things that aren't speed-critical
[05:53] <cjwatson> it'll build from scratch every time, so it isn't going to get near the performance of a ccached incremental build
[05:54] <doko> BenC: well, the current toolchain updates are tested; and it's likely that headers break on some architecture. AFAIK the archive isn't open yet.
[05:54] <fabbione> doko: aren't we supposed to bootstrap the toolchain starting from kernel headers? or do you want to change that later?
[05:54] <BenC> cjwatson: maybe a dedicated machine for this sort of thing would be nice...I'm not sure the whole team can do fast build/upload cycles like we were doing
[05:54] <fabbione> doko: ok
[05:54] <cjwatson> (PPA => Personal Package Archives, basically per-person apt archives with uploaders and such attached implemented in Launchpad)
[05:54] <doko> fabbione: we never did a full bootstrap; I did put that on the UDS agenda
[05:55] <cjwatson> BenC: let's talk about this more on the phone in a bit, but one idea would be to ensure that each of you has access to the others' fast personal build machines
[05:55] <BenC> doko: Catch be out-of-band for more discussion, I want to make sure I'm not blocking you
[05:55] <BenC> cjwatson: ok
[05:55] <BenC> we're just about out of time
[05:55] <cjwatson> datacentre hosting is good for most of the distro team, but for kernel development having the box locally is pretty valuable
[05:56] <BenC> any last minute comments?
[05:56] <fabbione> LOVE YA!
[05:57] <BenC> kylem, pkl, rtg: Congrats on your guys first release cycle nearly at an end...I know it was rough, but everyone did a great job
[05:57] <BenC> fabbione: DITTO!
[05:57] <BenC> have a good week everyone, party on Thursday
[08:05] <ranf> hi
[08:07] <Seveas> hi ranf, you're early
[08:09] <ranf> Seveas, yea I know, get a better seat that way
[08:10] <sid> @schedule New_York
[08:10] <ubotu> Schedule for America/New_York: 17 Apr 16:00: Community Council | 18 Apr 08:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 11:00: Development Team | 24 Apr 16:00: Technical Board | 25 Apr 16:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 16:00: MOTU
[08:21] <ranf> @schedule Mars
[08:22] <ranf> @schedule berlien
[08:22] <ranf> @schedule berlin
[08:22] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 17 Apr 22:00: Community Council | 18 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 17:00: Development Team | 24 Apr 22:00: Technical Board | 25 Apr 22:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 22:00: MOTU
[08:22] <ogra> Mars ?
[08:22] <ranf> corner case test
[08:22] <ogra> Seveas, thats a serious bug ... we dont have Mars TZs
[08:23] <ogra> @schedule atlantis
[08:23] <ogra> bah
[08:24] <Seveas> ranf, gt it added to pytz and ubotu supports it :p
[08:24] <ranf> @schedule posixrules
[08:24] <ubotu> Schedule for posixrules: 17 Apr 16:00: Community Council | 18 Apr 08:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 11:00: Development Team | 24 Apr 16:00: Technical Board | 25 Apr 16:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 16:00: MOTU
[08:26] <ranf> Seveas, pytz is a package?
[08:27] <Seveas> !info python-tz
[08:27] <ubotu> python-tz: Python version of the Olson timezone database. In component main, is extra. Version 2006g-1 (edgy), package size 181 kB, installed size 3420 kB
[08:28] <ranf> k
[08:51] <Seveas> emonkey, dude, adding yourself one hour before the meeting is annoying...
[08:51] <sacater> Seveas: the meeting is in one hour?
[08:51] <Seveas> better be prepared ;)
[08:51] <Seveas> @now
[08:51] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 17 2007, 18:51:44 - Next meeting: Community Council in 1 hour 8 minutes
[08:51] <Seveas> sacater, 8 minutes more ;)
[08:51] <sacater> :P
[08:52] <sacater> are you going to be doing the membership thing
[08:52] <sacater> :o
[08:52] <Seveas> depends on what you mean with 'doing the membership thing'
[08:52] <Seveas> I'll be poking at buttons in launchpad
[08:54] <emonkey> Seveas, sorry, if it's better I can do it the next time
[08:54] <emonkey> no worry for me
[08:54] <Seveas> emonkey, no, it's perfctly fine. It just means CC people can never be completely prepared when they come to the meting
[08:54] <Seveas> emonkey, but I'm pretty sure your membership application will be dealt with quickly :)
[08:55] <sacater> :o
[08:55] <juliux> Seveas, what do you think about to froze the agenda site a few days befor the meeting?
[08:55] <emonkey> I hope I can answer in reasonable time, unfortunately my english isn't the best
[08:55] <Seveas> juliux, I've been thinking about that
[08:55] <emonkey> I'm a bit slow
[08:56] <juliux> Seveas, i personal don't check the agenda site every day, so it would be better if the topics are three or four days bevor the meeting fix
[08:56] <sacater> Seveas: shall i start bringing my 'fanclub' in
[08:57] <sacater> ywp
[08:57] <sacater> i can see
[08:57] <juliux> Seveas, should i add this to the topic for today;)
[08:57] <juliux> s/topic/agenda
[08:58] <Seveas> juliux, neh
[08:58] <juliux> Seveas, just joking;)
[08:58] <ogra> wow, busy pre-meeting noise in here :)
[08:59] <sacater> oh yes
[08:59] <juliux> ogra, europe is now utc+2 and not +1 ;)
[08:59] <Seveas> ogra, an hour of it ;)
[08:59] <Seveas> @time
[08:59] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 17 2007, 18:59:41 - Next meeting: Community Council in 1 hour 0 minutes
[08:59] <ogra> heh
[09:09] <Seveas> emonkey, you didn't document your ubuntu contributions on your wikipage
[09:09] <Seveas> emonkey, you *must* do that before applying otherwise the meetings will take far too long
[09:10] <Seveas> (same goes for a few other candidates for today, but they are not here yet)
[09:11] <kkubasik> cept me :)
[09:11] <Seveas> ScottK, I didn't :)
[09:11] <ScottK> Great.  Thanks.
[09:12] <kkubasik> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KevinKubasik
[09:12] <kkubasik> im assuming that part comes later, but yeah
[09:12] <Seveas> bkingx, are there other kentucky members here to cheer for you?
[09:12] <Seveas> kkubasik, this is just my pre-meeting check :)
[09:12] <kkubasik> haha, sounds good ;)
[09:13] <bkingx> Seveas: etank and Zuph are here
[09:13] <kkubasik> I can imagine that these aren't always the fastest things
[09:13] <Seveas> bkingx, good
[09:13] <Seveas> kkubasik, they tend to take long if people come unprepared (like emonkey)
[09:13] <kkubasik> yeah
[09:13] <bkingx> Seveas: I am expecting atopance and possibly Vorian as well
[09:13] <Seveas> bkingx, that's quite a fanclub
[09:13] <Seveas> good!
[09:14] <etank> yay bkingx
[09:14] <kkubasik> ;)
[09:14] <bkingx> ;)
[09:15] <Zuph> yay kkubasik
[09:15] <kkubasik> hhehe weee!!!!
[09:15] <somerville32> My neck hurts.
[09:17] <sacater> Seveas: want to perform a pre-meeting check on me?
[09:17] <Seveas> sacater, already did. You documented things :)
[09:17] <Seveas> COuld be fleshed out a bit, but should probably do
[09:17] <Seveas> (Not saying anything about the quality of contributions here, just the documnting bit)
[09:18] <sacater> Seveas: i dont do documenting....
[09:19] <sacater> i do support tracking mainly
[09:19] <sacater> tiny bit of packaging...
[09:19] <apokryphos> sacater: I presume he means wiki entry etc
[09:19] <Seveas> sacater, documenting your contributions I mean ;)
[09:19] <sacater> and a few bug reports
[09:19] <sacater> oh
[09:19] <sacater> okies
[09:19] <sacater> btw, take a look at this before the meeting, should make you laugh if you like stand-up comedy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OUykE3Uvb0&NR=1
[09:20] <sacater> makes me smile :P
[09:20] <Nafallo> morning all ;-)
[09:20] <sacater> Nafallo: ello
[09:21] <Seveas> yeager, are you serious?
[09:21] <Seveas> adding yourself 40 minutes before meeting and not having anything on your wikipage
[09:21] <Seveas> Please come prepared!
[09:21] <yeager> Seveas: i'm editing my wiki page now
[09:22] <sacater> yeager: took me a day or 2 to prepare my mine
[09:22] <sacater> im 14, my mind is limited...
[09:22] <Seveas> yeager, you could give the people on the CC some time to prepare for the meeting instead of last-minute rushing
[09:22] <juliux> Seveas, pls let me add "shoudl the cc agend be frozen 4 days befor the meeting?" to the agend for today
[09:22] <somerville32> yeager has a hell of a lot of karma
[09:22] <Seveas> juliux, yeah....
[09:22] <Seveas> let's do that
[09:23] <Seveas> somerville32, that doesn't matter: unprepared is unprepared
[09:23] <apokryphos> do those on the CC even read before the meeting starts? ;)
[09:23] <somerville32> Seveas: Just making an observation ;] 
[09:23] <Seveas> apokryphos, some of them do
[09:23] <Seveas> and I like to b prepared as well
[09:24] <Nafallo> I think I added myself 5 minutes before the meeting when I was approved though :-P
[09:24] <yeager> updated my wiki page now
[09:24] <juliux> somerville32, did you check every day the meeting agend? i check the agenda somedays befor the meeting and then i deciced if i will join the meeting or not
[09:24] <Seveas> yeager, that page still says nothing
[09:24] <somerville32> juliux, I'm subscribed to the page. I  get notified everytime someone edits it.
[09:25] <Nafallo> yeager: you forgot ubuntu-nordic, and that you are the one doing most of the Swedish translations in both Ubuntu and Debian.
[09:25] <juliux> somerville32, hm ok, i stoped subscribing every wikipage and mailinglist
[09:25] <Seveas> yeager, take a look at for instance brian kings page, or micah cowans....
[09:25] <apokryphos> somerville32: a lot of extra time? :P
[09:26] <Nafallo> yeager: and that you've been giving support in the swedish channel since ages :-)
[09:26] <somerville32> apokryphos, Indeed! Did you expect me to get back to work quickly after spending two months in the hospital? lol :P
[09:26] <apokryphos> somerville32: how've you been?
[09:27] <somerville32> apokryphos, I think I'm doin' a lot better but only time will tell, I guess. : )
[09:27] <apokryphos> cool =)
[09:27] <yeager> Nafallo: i don't know how much information I should put on that page.. i'm just a poor translator :)
[09:27] <Seveas> somerville32, what do you mean with your agenda item?
[09:27] <kkubasik> yeager: just say for who and stuff
[09:27] <apokryphos> yeager: you can get an idea by looking at others' pages
[09:27] <Nafallo> yeager: EVERYTHING! ;-)
[09:29] <Nafallo> yeager: reporting bugs, running development versions... :-)
[09:29] <somerville32> Seveas: sabdfl asked me to work with salgado to ensure that lp infrastructure was in place for the CC vote.
[09:29] <Seveas> somerville32, aight
[09:30] <mattva01> i'm thinking of applying for membership
[09:30] <Seveas> micahcowan, you've been doing things for ages, about time you applied :)
[09:30] <mattva01> Dont think I've done enough though
[09:33] <micahcowan> Seveas, have I? :)  ...I never really knew how much was "enough", and wanted to be on the safe side.
[09:33] <Seveas> micahcowan, that's the good approach at this, makes our lif much easier
[09:33] <Nafallo> micahcowan: like me then :-)
[09:33] <micahcowan> :)
[09:33] <Nafallo> I don't even remember when I applied :-P
[09:33] <Seveas> Nafallo, btw: make sure you put your cheers on yeagers wikipage :)
[09:34] <Nafallo> Seveas: oh? on the wiki those days? :-)
[09:34] <Seveas> Nafallo, it helps
[09:34] <Nafallo> Seveas: glad you told me :-)
[09:34] <Seveas> Nafallo, and it provides some page filling for him ;)
[09:34] <Devaux> Hi there
[09:34] <Nafallo> Seveas: hehe :-)
[09:34] <yeager> seriously need a smoke..
[09:34] <Seveas> 'Translation karma: insane' should be enough for membership, but propely documented is better
[09:35] <Nafallo> yeager: then I grab your wiki... ;-)
[09:35] <micahcowan> heh
[09:35] <Nafallo> Seveas: lol
[09:35] <micahcowan> Oh, holy &!*, that /is/ a huluvalot of karma.
[09:35] <Nafallo> I need my Ubuntu password :-P
[09:35] <Seveas> micahcowan, it is
[09:35] <kkubasik> I guess I have bug-triage-ing karma
[09:35] <Devaux> Is Mark here?
[09:35] <Devaux> 8o)
[09:35] <kkubasik> ;)
[09:35] <Nafallo> I hope my other PC likes me today, since it's in an encrypted file :-P
[09:36] <Seveas> Devaux, not yet
[09:36] <Nafallo> Seveas: the PC won't even start :-P
[09:36] <micahcowan> jk :)
[09:36] <Seveas> Nafallo, :p
[09:36] <ranf> I've lost a bunch of karma points. Dunno where they hide.
[09:37] <kkubasik> they expire with time
[09:37] <Seveas> ranf, a karma of 70 is not too impressive
[09:37] <ranf> kkubasik, must be smth. new then?
[09:37] <kkubasik> I wanna say half-lifed, just because it would be cool and fun
[09:37] <juliux> Seveas, better then nothing;)
[09:37] <micahcowan> ranf, the scale has changed /drastically/, from time to time, too. I think mine used to be a lot closer to yeager's at one point (but his would've registered as a couple mil, then, if I'm even right that the scale was like that)
[09:37] <Seveas> juliux, true
[09:37] <juliux> Seveas, and karam is unfair there is no karma for no tech things
[09:37] <kkubasik> ranf: ? I don't follow
[09:38] <Seveas> juliux, are you going to cheer for rang for his ubuntu-de contributions?
[09:38] <Seveas> juliux, that's why we want properly documented contributions and look at all of them
[09:38] <micahcowan> Yeah, it's a little sad to break my butt with gdb and submit a debdiff, and see the karma go up by a pretty dang small amount :)
[09:38] <juliux> Seveas, no i wasn't it
[09:38] <Seveas> juliux, too bad, he needs some cheerleaders
[09:40] <yeager> my karma was 10M+ last year (before the reset)
[09:40] <sacater> @time
[09:40] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 17 2007, 19:40:26 - Next meeting: Community Council in 19 minutes
[09:40] <sacater> good..
[09:40] <jussi01> sacater, you getting jumpy?
[09:40] <Devaux> Where can I buy this ehm... karma? :)
[09:40] <kkubasik> eh, I like that it decreeases, it doesn't make new members feel alientated and unable to help
[09:40] <Seveas> yeager, same here ;)
[09:41] <yeager> Seveas: :)
[09:42] <sacater> jussi01: oh yes....
[09:43] <jussi01> wb sacater
[09:44] <micahcowan> Q: why does communitycouncil have like 4 members, almost(?) none of whom are here?
[09:44] <sacater> yeh
[09:44] <sacater> thats the sort of stupid thing i DONT want to do in here :OP
[09:44] <Seveas> micahcowan, A: because launchpad misses parts to support the vote for a new council
[09:44] <micahcowan> to be added RSN?
[09:44] <Seveas> NOTE FOR ALL MEMBER CANDIDATES: open a text editor and prepare a three-line introduction
[09:45] <Seveas> so you can paste that when I call you
[09:45] <sacater> waht...
[09:45] <sacater> 3 lines
[09:45] <sacater> i did 25
[09:45] <sacater> aw..... fudgecake....
[09:45] <Seveas> sacater, that's good for a wiki
[09:45] <Seveas> irc is for shorter texts :)
[09:45] <Seveas> 3 lines may be a bit short, but please no more than 10
[09:46] <sacater> ok
[09:46] <sacater> let me cut it down
[09:46] <micahcowan> sacater, me too :)
[09:46] <micahcowan> 3 lines in an editor may == 10 lines in IRC, depending on configuration...
[09:47] <juliux> micahcowan, line == 70characters
[09:47] <sacater> dagnabit!
[09:48] <welp> sacater: use vim and do :set textwidth=70
[09:48] <welp> ;)
[09:48] <welp> vim++
[09:48] <sacater> welp: too late
[09:49] <micahcowan> welp, yeah, but won't that also introduce linebreaks that may interfere with actual IRC client widths? I just resized my gvim to 72 columns. :)
[09:49] <welp> tsk.
[09:50] <micahcowan> what?
[09:50] <micahcowan> :)
[09:50] <Seveas> T minus (10 + CC delay) minutes
[09:50] <sacater> are we active?
[09:50] <sacater> @time
[09:50] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 17 2007, 19:50:39 - Current meeting: Community Council
[09:50] <mc44> Seveas: oh you pessimist :)
[09:52] <ranf> boah 6 min before
[09:52] <atoponce> MikeB-: howdy.
[09:52] <juliux> first rule for all member candidates be patient;)
[09:53] <juliux> hey LaserJock
[09:53] <emonkey> k
[09:53] <micahcowan> LaserJock! :)
[09:53] <sacater> LaserJock is sponsering me
[09:53] <sacater> i think :P
[09:53] <sacater> .......and he cant even spell sponsor...
[09:53] <MikeB-> atoponce: hiya
[09:54] <atoponce> MikeB-: when are you up for the CC? or did i miss it?
[09:54] <MikeB-> atoponce: not sure what happened with that
[09:54] <Seveas> atoponce, MikeB-: launchpad lacks supporting things
[09:55] <atoponce> Seveas: so, it's a launchpad thing that we're waiting on, then?
[09:55] <auge> hi
[09:55] <Seveas> atoponce, afaik
[09:55] <atoponce> ok. cool
[09:55] <sacater> Seveas: time to go?
[09:55] <MikeB-> Seveas: oic
[09:55] <atoponce> Tue Apr 17 19:55:47 UTC 2007
[09:55] <Seveas> sacater, when the CC arrives
[09:55] <ompaul> @now bermuda
[09:55] <ubotu> Current time in Atlantic/Bermuda: April 17 2007, 16:56:02 - Current meeting: Community Council
[09:56] <sacater> lucky, its 9pm here
[09:56] <atoponce> MikeB-: let me know when you hear something
[09:56] <MikeB-> 2:00 PM here, woot
[09:56] <atoponce> Seveas: you too. :)
[09:56] <juliux> sacater, be patient we have to wait for the cc ;)
[09:56] <etank> Seveas: should a LoCo team that is up for approval have some text prepared to paste about the team?
[09:56] <sacater> juliux: :O
[09:56] <Seveas> etank, preferably
[09:56] <MikeB-> atoponce: you going to the release party Saturday
[09:57] <atoponce> MikeB-: wouldn't miss it. you?
[09:57] <Seveas> etank, but the wikipage is more important :)
[09:57] <Seveas> Ekushey, please document your ubuntu contrbutions properly before applying for membership. Currently your wikipage has *no* information at all
[09:58] <MikeB-> atoponce: yes, I'm planning to come for a couple of hours
[09:58] <atoponce> cool
[09:58] <Seveas> hi elmo
[09:58] <MikeB-> atoponce: still waiting for my passport, on hold for an hour now
[09:59] <Ekushey> Seveas, okay
[09:59] <atoponce> MikeB-: are you out of the country?
[09:59] <juliux> hi elmo
[09:59] <Seveas> Ekushey, if you think you can document it all in an hour, please do so. Otherwise consider applying next time and I'll help you with the wikipage if you want
[09:59] <MikeB-> atoponce: getting passport for Seville in a couple of week
[10:00] <atoponce> MikeB-: ahh. for uds?
[10:00] <PriceChild> MikeB-, cutting it close :)
[10:01] <MikeB-> atoponce: you and Christer should ask for sponsorship, especially for the USA loco work
[10:01] <xblackfire> @now
[10:01] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 17 2007, 20:01:27 - Current meeting: Community Council
[10:01] <elmo> hi seveas, juliux
[10:02] <atoponce> MikeB-: how do i go about that? should i pm you after the meet for details?
[10:02] <MikeB-> atoponce: send me a e-mail
[10:02] <atoponce> MikeB-: will do
[10:02] <atoponce> PriceChild: ?
[10:03] <PriceChild> atoponce, that gives a link with details doesn't it?
[10:03] <Seveas> elmo, do you know if sabdfl is around-ish?
[10:05] <sacater> has the meeting started, my ubuntu-server synced clock says yes
[10:05] <atoponce> Tue Apr 17 20:05:56 UTC 2007
[10:05] <Seveas> sacater, the CC is a bit out of sync
[10:06] <sacater> ok
[10:06] <mako> alrihgt
[10:06] <sacater> i will wait :P
[10:06] <MikeB-> hey mako
[10:06] <Nafallo> morning mako :-)
[10:06] <jenda> MikeB-: any particular tips as to how to apply for sponsorship?
[10:06] <Seveas> mako, excellent, now we only need our sabdfl and some guacamole, and we have a par-tay
[10:06] <jenda> (evenin')
[10:06] <Nafallo> haha
[10:07] <mako> i am going to need to disappear in 80 minutes at least temporarily
[10:07] <mako> i need to go mail my taxes before the post office closes :)
[10:07] <Seveas> mako, taxes, schmaxes ;)
[10:07] <sacater> :o
[10:07] <Seveas> how long will you be gone approximately?
[10:07] <mc44> mako: isnt the deadline the 15th in the US? :)
[10:07] <yeager> mail the taxes? not sending them digitally signed? :)
[10:08] <ompaul> Seveas, its schmaxes they give you if you don't give them taxes
[10:08] <mako> yeager: i'm actually filing an extension :)
[10:08] <gnomefreak> mc44: 15th was on a sunday so they give you a couple of days
[10:08] <gnomefreak> i think deadline is tonight
[10:08] <atoponce> jenda: i'm going to email him. i'll cc: you on the message
[10:08] <MikeB-> mc44: 15th was SUnday, and 16th was a holiday in District of Columbia
[10:09] <jenda> atoponce: email sabdfl?
[10:09] <LaserJock> I managed to get mine sent last week
[10:09] <atoponce> jenda: MikeB-
[10:09] <jenda> ah
[10:09] <jenda> :)
[10:09] <elmo> Seveas: I SMSed him
[10:09] <jenda> gah, I'm probably going to crash - can't imagine staying up for the entire meeting.
[10:10] <elmo> (before the meeting started)
[10:11] <sabdfl> evening all
[10:11] <gnomefreak> evening sabdfl
[10:11] <MikeB-> evening Mark
[10:11] <Seveas> hi sabdfl
[10:11] <juliux> evening sabdfl
[10:11] <Seveas> let's get started!
[10:11] <kkubasik> evening
[10:12] <Seveas> sabdfl, you're first on the agenda with the Trademark policy - so if you're ready: go for it!
[10:12] <Devaux> Hi Mr. Shuttleworth
[10:12] <sabdfl> thanks seveas
[10:12] <somerville32> sabdfl, \o_
[10:12] <sabdfl> we are getting a much greater volume of requests regarding the trademarks
[10:12] <sabdfl> Seveas: coudl you paste a url for folks to review the proposed policy?
[10:12] <Seveas> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DraftTrademarkPolicy2007
[10:13] <sabdfl> canonical owns the trademarks, and we want a policy that enhances their value to canonical as well as the community
[10:13] <sabdfl> being mindful of the firefox debate, we've put these guidelines together
[10:13] <sabdfl> i'm very interested in feedback from the CC and from folks at this meeting
[10:13] <sabdfl>  /end
[10:13] <kkubasik> I think its generous
[10:14] <kkubasik> surprisingly so, not to say I think everyone is mean
[10:14] <Seveas> sabdfl, I like the 'Remix' part of it
[10:14] <kkubasik> but its big risk to let anyone use the name
[10:14] <mc44> it has very good balance :)
[10:14] <sabdfl> thanks Seveas, we're trying to encourage people to do fun and useful things with ubuntu
[10:14] <atoponce> i'm looking forward to whatever is decided, as i plan on using them as decals on my car, as i'm sure sabdfl saw in my email
[10:14] <Seveas> sabdfl, but I have a tricky question for you already: does the name ubotu (our beloved irc bot) become a problematic name?
[10:14] <juliux> sabdfl, what happens if a locoteam produce with a local bookshop some dvds? did they have to ask or not?
[10:15] <sabdfl> and give them the freedom to call it "ubuntu" if it preserves the spirit of the project
[10:15] <mc44> Seveas: its non commercial isnt it? :p
[10:15] <Seveas> mc44, read the policy, there's more to it than noncommercial
[10:15] <mc44> Seveas: I know, I was just checking that it was :)
[10:15] <sabdfl> Seveas: i think the association is subtle enough that you have free reign there :-)
[10:15] <mako> kkubasik: we *want* people to use the name because we want to them to talk about ubuntu, build communities around ubuntu, do stuff that helps makes ubuntu a recognizable brand
[10:15] <ompaul> sabdfl, I think I see an error wrt intent, how do you want that addressed as a pm or here?
[10:16] <sabdfl> juliux: if the DVD's are the same ISO, then no need to ask
[10:16] <kkubasik> oh no, I love that component, and I'm glad the decision was made to be this open about it
[10:16] <juliux> sabdfl, ok also if the bookshop also sell the dvd?
[10:16] <sabdfl> if they are modified, but the loco team still wants to call it "ubuntu" then it depends
[10:16] <sabdfl> if the only modification is package selection / deselection, then i don't think they need to ask
[10:16] <sabdfl> if they are modifying packages, then they do
[10:16] <kkubasik> its just I felt that mozilla was completely in the right, and ubuntu would have been too
[10:17] <kkubasik> had it come to that
[10:17] <sabdfl> ompaul: here
[10:17] <MikeB-> juliux: in the past with other distro, charging for the cost of media is allow, but no more
[10:17] <juliux> MikeB-, that is why i am asking;)
[10:17] <sabdfl> we don't mind if people print ubuntu cd's or dvd's and charge whatever they like for them
[10:18] <juliux> sabdfl, sounds good and fair
[10:18] <ompaul> sabdfl, so, the section that says: Use in combination with any product or service which is presented as being Certified or Official or formally associated with us or our products or services. may actually want to state, "unless authorised by the trademark holder" however this could also be placed in the phrasing of the introduction to that section
[10:19] <jenda> sabdfl, juliux - it sounds Free ;)
[10:19] <juliux> jenda, you are right
[10:20] <sabdfl> ompaul: yes, it does seem odd to rule out authorised use in that case
[10:20] <Nafallo> looks pretty good. seems I might want to look up some Swedish pages and companys though.
[10:20] <ompaul> sabdfl, while I concur that the next section deals with commerical, it may be the case that it should be placed above prohibitions
[10:20] <mako> in general, i'm happy with the current draft
[10:20] <ompaul> sabdfl, then it "feels" better
[10:20] <xblackfire> hi i'm from ubuntu-ni and we plan a distro based on ubuntu, the modification is on package selection and some artwork additional,  with this policy we must use Remix on the name of the distro ?
[10:21] <mako> in general, i think people misunderstand tradmark a little bit
[10:21] <sabdfl> xblackfire: if you want to use "Ubuntu", then you'll need "Remix"
[10:21] <sabdfl> so it's clear to people
[10:21] <mako> i think they think it covers using the name in any situation, when in reality, it should only cover using the name to imply endorsement
[10:21] <mako> so if someone wanted to write an article about how they feel ubuntu sucks, that isn't a trademark issue
[10:22] <mc44> mako: I had a small point about that relating to the poilicy
[10:22] <mako> exactly
[10:22] <mc44> mako: it would be nice if the forbidden section acknowledges that fact
[10:22] <mako> right..
[10:22] <mc44> because currently it covers all domain names
[10:22] <sabdfl> ompaul: i'll raise the question of authorised use, and the sequence of the sections
[10:23] <mako> it only becomes a problem when the websites is designed to look like UBUNTU itself is talking about how it sucks
[10:23] <mattva01> What about a distro called foobuntu(hypothetical), would we have to get special permission for that?
[10:23] <sabdfl> mako: can you propose some language that makes that clear?
[10:23] <mc44> mako: right but in the policy it says any commercial use or disparging use. is it possible to put something like "exccept where allowed by fair use"
[10:23] <mako> sabdfl: yeah, right now?
[10:24] <mako> i might actually have some around
[10:24] <xblackfire> we thinking in use NicaUbuntu, but with the new policy that name, we need ask permission to Ubuntu
[10:24] <sabdfl> mattva01: yes, that would fall into this framework
[10:24] <micahcowan> mako, isn't that (potentially) parody (protected)?
[10:24] <sabdfl> mako: or by mail to CC / me
[10:24] <sabdfl>  / jane
[10:24] <LaserJock> sabdfl: will this become retroactive? i.e. will existing derivatives, etc. be asked to fall in line with this policy?
[10:24] <sabdfl> we should certainly protect parody explicitly, because it is not protected in all jurisdictions
[10:25] <sabdfl> LaserJock: yes
[10:25] <mc44> sabdfl: thank you!
[10:25] <micahcowan> I was wondering about that...
[10:25] <sabdfl> though where there are issues, we would take time to resolve them graciously
[10:25] <mc44> damn too late
[10:25] <Seveas> mc44, guess where it redirects to :p
[10:25] <sabdfl> ;-)
[10:26] <mc44> sabdfl: I have hyphens in my arsenal :p
[10:26] <sabdfl> lay on macduff
[10:26] <MikeB-> mako: could a website that looks like Ubuntu but but used to spread FUD be protect by parody rights
[10:26] <|{evin> ubuntusux.com is available.
[10:26] <sabdfl> i don't mind a sucks domain or three
[10:26] <ompaul> sabdfl, should I take it that the (TM) question policy will get a second airing or it this is its big day out?
[10:26] <Nafallo> hmm
[10:26] <sabdfl> make good use of it!
[10:26] <sabdfl> we should redirect it to bugs.lp.net/ubuntu
[10:26] <mc44> haha
[10:26] <LaserJock> lol
[10:26] <|{evin> heh, nice
[10:26] <Nafallo> isonaming has to have "remix" in the name to? :-)
[10:27] <imbrandon> sabdfl, +1 , heh
[10:27] <Seveas> could we please focus on the topic at hand, we have quite a long agenda
[10:27] <sabdfl> ok, so salient comments so far:
[10:27] <sabdfl>  - ompaul re authorised use for official entities, like "official ubuntu magazine" etc
[10:28] <sabdfl>  - mako re the difference between commentary / fair use and endorsement
[10:28] <_MMA_> Hi guys. I have had several emails back and forth with Mark and Jane about Canonical officially protecting "Ubuntu Studio" Jane said she would start the process. Is there anything more we should do? As a project? Also we wanted to Copyright packages we've done as Ubuntu Studio but there seems to be issue with that currently.
[10:28] <sabdfl> jane came back to me and said we did not need to protect it, as the existing Ubuntu trademark covers it
[10:29] <mako> sabdfl: ok..
[10:29] <mako> The Ubuntu trademarks are designed to cover use of a mark to imply origin or endorsement by the project. When a user downloads something called Ubuntu, they should know it comes from the Ubuntu project. This helps Ubuntu build a reputation that will not be damaged by confusion around what is, and isn't, Ubuntu.
[10:29] <mako> Using the trademarks in ways that do unequivacoable do not imply endorsement or provide any room for improvement is always permissable.  Anyone is free to write articles, create websites, about, or talk about Ubuntu -- as long as it's clear to everyone -- including people completely unfamiliar with Ubuntu -- that they are simply talking *about* Ubuntu and in no way *for* Ubuntu.
[10:29] <mako> or something to that effect
[10:29] <sabdfl> _MMA_: nobody else can call their stuff "Ubuntu Studio", since we've already ack'd your use of it
[10:29] <mako> i'm afraid that people might get the wrong idea, especially from the "forbidden" section
[10:29] <Seveas> mako, sounds sane to me
[10:30] <mako> which is essentially a "don't even ask" section
[10:30] <kkubasik> is ubuntu studio a completely communuty driven project with no offical backing?
[10:30] <sabdfl> we have a don't-even-ask section, i could add it there
[10:30] <_MMA_> sabdfl: Ok. So currently we do "Copyright Canonical On the website/forum. Is that correct?
[10:31] <mako> sabdfl: yeah, i was wondering if we think it would be better at the top or hte don't even ask
[10:31] <mako> is it ok to edit this?
[10:31] <ompaul> sabdfl, there is one thing missing, a "if we feel you did us wrong section we reserve the right to request a takedown"
[10:31] <mako> or should i prose it to the cc and jane?
[10:31] <sabdfl> _MMA_: yes
[10:31] <_MMA_> k
[10:31] <mako> ompaul: that's unnecessary IMHO
[10:32] <mako> ompaul: we don't need to wave around sticks here
[10:32] <sabdfl> mako: let me make an edit, then i'll past the diff url
[10:32] <micahcowan> Should there be explicit mention of use of the mark in completely unrelated contexts (a l that one advertisement that hit digg recently)? (And, is it okay for me to be interjecting like this?)
[10:33] <juliux> i read the trademarkpolicy know a second time, but there is something not clear for me, if we as a locoteam make shirts like http://ubuntu.juliux.de/shirt/polo.jpg did we have to add a tradmark on the shirt?
[10:34] <mako> juliux: i think you'd just be asked to send an email
[10:34] <MikeB-> sabdfl: does Canonical own "buntu" trademark or "UBUNTU, KUBUNTU, EDUBUNTU, and XUBUNTU"
[10:34] <juliux> mako, i will write an mail because this is more difficult situation
[10:34] <juliux> mako,
[10:35] <mako> juliux: send it to the CC
[10:35] <somerville32> Speaking of Xubuntu, Xubuntu is almost never mentioned on trademark notices (such as on the website  and certain press releases).
[10:36] <sabdfl> MikeB-: i believe "buntu" is covered, globally
[10:37] <juliux> i am very happy to have this trademark policy
[10:37] <somerville32> I agree. Long overdue.
[10:37] <sabdfl> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DraftTrademarkPolicy2007?action=diff
[10:38] <sabdfl> i'll pass that back to Canonical, along with ompaul's comments
[10:38] <sabdfl> thanks all for your comments
[10:38] <jenda> I might have one more
[10:38] <ompaul> yw
[10:38] <jenda> "there is no commercial intent behind the use"
[10:39] <jenda> What type of behaviour violates that particular rule (considering it's in the 'community advocacy' section?)
[10:40] <jenda> Does that mean, for example, taht people can't make say, mugs or t-shirts with the Ubuntu logo with one of the goals being raising funds?
[10:40] <sabdfl> they can, they just need a trademark license
[10:40] <illovae> hello
[10:40] <imbrandon> i would have hoped ad's on the forums ( for non-logged in users ) on the forums would be considered commercial ( that havent come down yet btw ) ...
[10:40] <sabdfl> i see no reason why we wouldn't let a loco team do that
[10:41] <sabdfl> however, we would have an issue with a company doing that, on an industrial scale
[10:41] <Nafallo> isn't that already Community Advocacy?
[10:42] <Seveas> I'd say so
[10:42] <jenda> sabdfl: how about an individual doing it (partly) for personal gain?
[10:42] <jenda> I've been encouraging people to do that till now
[10:43] <sabdfl> jenda: best to bounce that past trademarks@
[10:43] <jenda> good
[10:43] <mako> awesome
[10:43] <sabdfl> imbrandon: good point
[10:43] <sabdfl> ok, thanks all!
[10:43] <sabdfl> what's up next, seveas?
[10:43] <jenda> so, it's basically _not_allowed_, but might be allowed on individual cases by community members...
[10:43] <Seveas> somerville32,
[10:43] <MikeB-> imbrandon: that is something that needs to be looked at
[10:44] <jenda> (err, _to_ community members)
[10:44] <Seveas> he has somthing to say about CC voting
[10:44] <Seveas> somerville32, you still with us?
[10:44] <somerville32> Seveas, Yup, sorry, was just eatting some pizza <g>
[10:44] <Seveas> heh
[10:45] <Seveas> so, what's up with 'CC Nominee Confirmation Vote 2007'?
[10:45] <somerville32> I've spoken with sabdfl regarding the CC Nominee Confirmation Vote on March 30th
[10:47] <Seveas> excellent, how's that coming along?
[10:47] <somerville32> After speaking with salgado and sabdfl, it appears, based off of sabdfl's description of the desired voting model, that the launchpad infrastructure required to conduct the vote is already implemented and that a vote can occur.
[10:47] <sabdfl> well, i suck, for one
[10:47] <sabdfl> i've been slow to get this done, my apologies!
[10:47] <Seveas> sabdfl, expect some slapping at UDS ;)
[10:47] <sabdfl> originally i wanted to have a richer voting system, with a race between n people for n-m seats
[10:48] <sabdfl> but instead, we will just have n confirmation votes
[10:48] <gnomefreak> Seveas mako sabdfl i have to run for a while. I would like to say that apokryphos is a great asset to the ubuntu community and i think he is a great canidate for membership. Thank you :)
[10:48] <sabdfl> thanks gnomefreak
[10:48] <ajmitch> Seveas: I'm sure we can find something to do at UDS..
[10:48] <Seveas> gnomefreak, noted
[10:48] <MikeB-> sabdfl: no problems
[10:48] <gnomefreak> ty and yw
[10:48] <Seveas> sabdfl, so per candidate we can say +1/0/-1 ?
[10:48] <sabdfl> yes
[10:48] <sabdfl> your membership in action!
[10:49] <mc44> sabdfl: is there a list of candidates yet?
[10:49] <gnomefreak> ;)
[10:49] <kkubasik> ;)
[10:49] <sabdfl> mc44: yes
[10:49] <LaserJock> apokryphos: only $5? memberships are coming cheap these days ;-)
[10:49] <sabdfl>    y daniel holbach
[10:49] <sabdfl>    y matthew east
[10:49] <sabdfl>    y mike basinger
[10:49] <sabdfl>    y corey burger
[10:49] <sabdfl>    y jerome gotangco
[10:49] <sabdfl> iirc
[10:49] <sabdfl> i will be happy to see us span more timezones
[10:50] <Nafallo> sabdfl: no sabdfl? :-)
[10:50] <Seveas> sabdfl, being admin for the team I should be able to create the votes. Want me to go ahead with that?
[10:50] <Seveas> Nafallo, sabdfl/elmo/mako will stay on board :)
[10:50] <sabdfl> Seveas: yeah!
[10:50] <Nafallo> *puuh*
[10:50] <mc44> sabdfl: no jono?
[10:50] <mako> mc44: not this time
[10:50] <apokryphos> LaserJock: heh, yup :)
[10:50] <mc44> okkk
[10:50] <sabdfl> mc44: jono's just a newbie round here!
[10:50] <sabdfl> ;-)
[10:50] <mc44> :)
[10:50] <imbrandon> lol
[10:50] <Nafallo> hehe
[10:50] <sabdfl> good candidate for a future round
[10:50] <Seveas> sabdfl, ok, voting will commence soon then if I get it right -- last time I tried to set up a vote it went bizarrely wrong :)
[10:50] <sabdfl> he's doing omazing work
[10:51] <somerville32> Seveas, The staging server is available to test
[10:51] <sabdfl> Seveas: ok, so it's 5 separate votes, each with yes/no options
[10:51] <Seveas> somerville32, excellent idea
[10:51] <OgMaciel> Seveas: was this list created by the CC or a poll?
[10:51] <Seveas> sabdfl, no 'blank vote'?
[10:51] <sabdfl> when's a good starting date?
[10:51] <somerville32> sabdfl, How long will the vote be open?
[10:51] <Seveas> OgMaciel, by sabdfl
[10:51] <Seveas> sabdfl, feisty release?
[10:51] <mc44> Seveas: for how many seats? one?
[10:52] <OgMaciel> sabdfl: I'd like to be considered
[10:52] <sabdfl> Seveas: i think a blank vote only makes sense in cases where you are choosing between n candidates, and want a "none of the above" vote. in this case, the "no" vote is the blank one in each case
[10:52] <Seveas> sabdfl, I'd say: feisty release until the start or end of uds
[10:52] <OgMaciel> obvisouly I realize it is sudden but I didn't know about it until now
[10:52] <elmo> Seveas: (sabdfl in consultation with the CC to be fair/pedantic)
[10:52] <sabdfl> Seveas: lets make it from monday, for 2 weeks?
[10:52] <Seveas> sabdfl, sounds good
[10:53] <sabdfl> will only just catch the first day of UDS
[10:53] <mc44> sabdfl: sorry, i may have missed it, but this is for how many open seats - just the one?
[10:53] <sabdfl> no, all 5 are up for consideration
[10:53] <sabdfl> if a majority of voters in each case say "aye", they all get on
[10:54] <micahcowan> n=m :)
[10:54] <Nafallo> Seveas: middle. so people can celebrate :-)
[10:54] <sabdfl> no, m=0 ;-)
[10:54] <sabdfl> Seveas: if we make it from Monday, for 15 days, then it gives us more time at UDS
[10:54] <mc44> ajmitch: should be easier getting a quorum then :p
[10:54] <sabdfl> this is the ubuntu members chance to veto, basically
[10:55] <micahcowan> m  [0,n]  ?
[10:55] <juliux> perhaps we can send a reminder to everybody, so he know about the vote
[10:55] <Seveas> juliux, of course
[10:55] <sabdfl> in future, we may have more complex races, where we have more candidates than seats
[10:55] <mako> sabdfl: it's fine to not catch UDS, maybe better :)
[10:55] <ajmitch> sabdfl: was it the TB that you wanted 3 of 5?
[10:55] <mc44> sabdfl: and campaign finance reform! ;)
[10:55] <sabdfl> ajmitch: i think it would be good in any race
[10:56] <sabdfl> the only issue is, platforms and competition don't suit everyone, and i don't want always to end up with the most vocal candidates, necessarily
[10:56] <sabdfl> so it's nice to be able to nominate someone, who just has to pass a general community up/down
[10:57] <sabdfl> we want the best overall mix of perspectives and skills on both bodies
[10:57] <sabdfl> and same on Motu Council and Forums Council too...
[10:57] <highvoltage> good evening Ubunteros
[10:57] <ajmitch> morning highvoltage
[10:57] <Seveas> sabdfl, don't forget the IRC council :)
[10:57] <juliux> good evening highvoltage
[10:57] <sabdfl> that august body, too :-)
[10:57] <mako> fine, all of the councils :)
[10:57] <sabdfl> ok, thanks for setting things up seveas
[10:58] <sabdfl> next?
[10:58] <Seveas> ok, let's move on!
[10:58] <Seveas> locoteams, etank
[10:58] <etank> Hi everyone. The Kentucky Team was started on 1/12/07. We started with 3 members and have since grown to 54 (about 20 of which are active on a regular basis). We are having an Install Fest and Release Party this weekend. We have started a partnership with the UKLUG and LPLUG in the Lexington area. We are also in the process of starting a charity project. We are also working on ways to offer local support to new / existing users.
[10:58] <MikeB-> somerville32: many thanks also:)
[10:58] <etank> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KentuckyTeam/ApprovalApplication
[10:58] <Seveas> somerville32, THANKS!
[10:58] <sabdfl> hi etank
[10:58] <etank> hi sabdfl
[10:59] <etank> we have some team members here to cheer us on and one of which is also on for membership today
[10:59] <atoponce> ahh. the kentucky team... solid loco, impressive progress, and great strength. etank and bkingx have done fabulous work getting this team up and running
[10:59] <etank> thanks atoponce
[10:59] <sabdfl> ubuntu-ky forums look pretty active too - is the community more mailing list or forums oriented?
[10:59] <bkingx> ty atoponce
[11:00] <etank> forums and irc
[11:00] <MikeB-> etank: the team is doing great work on the forums
[11:01] <etank> we use the mailing list mainly for meeting reminders
[11:01] <atoponce> the us teams project needs more people like etank and bkingx getting their loco teams up and running.
[11:01] <imbrandon> are we doing memberships today? sorry but I have to run soon ( ~5 minutes ) and just wanted to place my +1 for sacater's ubuntu membership , he will make a good addition to the community and is workin twords MOTUship someday ( not yet ), he has been active ~3 months iirc on irc and seems to be a solid contributior almost daily, anyhow if someone could bring up my +1 when the time is correct please.
[11:01] <sabdfl> etank: what sort of reaction have you had from libraries?
[11:01] <Seveas> imbrandon, thanks
[11:01] <etank> the team hopes to one day be in a position to mentor other teams the way that Utah and Ohio have helped us
[11:01] <sacater> imbrandon: thanks :D
[11:02] <somerville32> I have to run too. +1 for apokryphos and ScottK for membership. :) ttyl  everyone
[11:02] <etank> we have not hit the libraries yet
[11:02] <sabdfl> thanks imbrandon
[11:02] <etank> we have started talking to schools though
[11:02] <sacater> welp: wanna add your +1 for me?
[11:02] <Seveas> sacater, not now
[11:02] <etank> trying to get them to let us set up half of the labs with Ubuntu
[11:02] <sabdfl> ok. libraries are sometimes concerned about responsibility for software installed by people who got it from them
[11:02] <sacater> welp: not now ;P
[11:03] <sabdfl> this all looks tight and well-run to me
[11:03] <sabdfl> who are the ringleaders?
[11:03] <etank> thank you
[11:03] <etank> binkx, venemous and myself
[11:03] <bkingx> Thank for the library hint, sabdfl !
[11:03] <etank> we are the original 3 that got it started
[11:03] <mako> yeah, i tlooks like you're doing lots of great works
[11:03] <sabdfl> ok, i'm +1 on this one
[11:04] <sabdfl> great work so far
[11:04] <etank> i mean bkingx
[11:04] <elmo> +1
[11:04] <mako> yes, definitely a +1 from me as well
[11:04] <mako> keep up the good work
[11:04] <Seveas> congratz!
[11:04] <etank> thank you
[11:05] <bkingx> Thank you!!
[11:05] <atoponce> etank: bkingx: congrats
[11:05] <Nafallo> yay!
[11:05] <bkingx> Much work to be done!
[11:05] <etank> awesome!!
[11:05] <highvoltage> etank, bkingx: congrats and welcome :)
[11:05] <MikeB-> etank: congrats team Kentucky, but Indiana is still better at basketball:-)
[11:05] <Seveas> sacater will now jump the queue, he will have to go soon
[11:05] <ScatterBrain> Great work etank bkingx !
[11:05] <Seveas> sacater, please paste your intro
[11:05] <sacater> ok
[11:05] <sacater> ==Very Short Description about me==
[11:05] <sacater> Hi, I am Sam Cater, otherwise known as sacater or sacatermeister. I am 14 years old and live in Ipswich, Suffolk, GB. I have signed the Code of Conduct with gpg and I am an ubuntero
[11:05] <sacater> I was first introduced to Ubuntu/Linux by welp (Peter Weller), a gentoo developer.
[11:05] <sacater> I have been helping in the community properly for about 4 months.
[11:05] <sacater> I use nothing but ubuntu
[11:05] <sacater> I have contributed to ubuntu in a few different ways. I spend all my spare time in #ubuntu and #ubuntu-motu. Both helping out and learning whenever and wherever I can. I even got +u status on freenode.net, as I am eager to help in so many different aspects of Ubuntu. I always follow the Code of Conduct when I help others.
[11:06] <sacater> A good chunk of my work is answering questions in launchpad, I always try to answer questions as fully as possible, its good to see a star next to your answer :P
[11:06] <sacater> I also try and do my bit in Bug triaging and reporting.
[11:06] <sacater> welp is vouching me
[11:06] <ajmitch> very short? :)
[11:06] <sacater> :P
[11:06] <micahcowan> 10 lines? :)
[11:06] <sacater> maybe...
[11:06] <sacater> :D
[11:06] <ompaul> wc crashed
[11:06] <welp> sacater: cat <intofilename> | wc -l
[11:06] <welp> ;)
[11:06] <micahcowan> int overflow? :D
[11:06] <Nafallo> +u?
[11:06] <sacater> welp: later
[11:07] <welp> hahaha
[11:07] <sacater> Nafallo: yes
[11:07] <Seveas> ompaul, grab a mop and bucket then, and probably a gasmask
[11:07] <Nafallo> sacater: what's that? :-)
[11:07] <sacater> Nafallo: means rather than standard 21 freenode channel limit, i get 125
[11:07] <Nafallo> ah :-)
[11:07] <sacater> im on 53 i think
[11:08] <sacater> Seveas: what next?
[11:08] <Seveas> sacater, wait.
[11:08] <sacater> :o
[11:08] <highvoltage> I'm quite jealous. I wish I could use Ubuntu when I was 14!
[11:08] <sacater> okies
[11:08] <sacater> highvoltage: :S
[11:08] <Seveas> the CC members are now reading your wikipage and investigating you
[11:08] <sacater> :o
[11:08] <sacater> egads!
[11:08] <sacater> :P
[11:08] <Seveas> highvoltage, same here
[11:09] <Seveas> at the age of 14 I used dos 3.21
[11:09] <elmo> sacater: you have SATs?
[11:09] <sacater> oh yes
[11:09] <sacater> 3 weeks time
[11:09] <elmo> they actually call them that in the UK now?
[11:09] <sacater> my contributions may get dotted over that time due to revision
[11:09] <sacater> elmo: yes
[11:09] <elmo> god, I feel so old
[11:09] <SWAT> elmo, same here
[11:09] <sacater> ill contribute all i can though!
[11:09] <PriceChild> sacater, sats don't mean anything ;)
[11:09] <juliux> highvoltage,  i get my first linux with 16:(
[11:09] <sacater> PriceChild: :o
[11:10] <sacater> PriceChild: they determine gcse ability
[11:10] <PriceChild> Just don't tell your teachers I told you ;)
[11:10] <welp> sacater: it's true... SATs really do not mean anything
[11:10] <welp> s/anything/much
[11:10] <welp> ;)
[11:10] <sacater> i think we have strayed off topic....
[11:10] <sacater> :P
[11:10] <sabdfl> sacater: excellent work in the Ubuntu Q&A secion
[11:10] <sabdfl> https://launchpad.net/~sacater
[11:10] <sacater> sabdfl: thank you, thank you very much...
[11:10] <sacater> :D
[11:10] <mako> is there anyone here to vouch for you?
[11:10] <sacater> oh yes
[11:11] <sacater> WELP!
[11:11] <sacater> come hither
[11:11] <SWAT> sacater, you're looking very active (keep it up)
[11:11] <sacater> LaserJock:
[11:11] <sacater> come hither also :P
[11:11] <welp> yes?
[11:11] <sacater> imbrandon: if you are still here...
[11:11] <ompaul> mako, I have seen him being helpful in #ubuntu on a regular basis
[11:11] <sabdfl> imbrandon spoke earlier on sacater's behalf
[11:11] <welp> mako: what am i supposed to say? ;)
[11:11] <sacater> welp: that, as a gentoo dev, you think i am good
[11:11] <sacater> welp: simple
[11:11] <Seveas> ...just wanted to place my +1 for sacater's ubuntu membership , he will make a good addition to the community and is workin twords MOTUship someday ( not yet ), he has been active ~3 months iirc on irc and seems to be a solid contributior almost daily, anyhow if someone could bring up my +1 when the time is correct please....
[11:11] <sacater> ajmitch: :D
[11:11] <Seveas> (imbrandon)
[11:12] <welp> i'm not a ubuntu member, but i am a gentoo developer, as such i feel i may as well try an vouch for him
[11:12] <welp> sacater's a hardworking 'lil bugger
[11:12] <sabdfl> sacater: are you studying software engineering?
[11:12] <welp> willing to learn
[11:12] <sacater> thanks :D
[11:12] <sacater> sabdfl: im 14
[11:12] <welp> sabdfl: he's 14...
[11:12] <mako> sacater: so i'm only seeing about month of activity in actiivty.. which is a bit less time (though not less activyt) than we ask from most people
[11:12] <welp> sabdfl: ask him that in ~4 years time ;)
[11:12] <OgMaciel> ;)
[11:12] <sabdfl> don't they teach computer science at school here?
[11:12] <Nafallo> LaserJock: shouldn't you say something? :-)
[11:12] <kkubasik> yeah they do ;)
[11:12] <mako> but as Seveas says, it sounds like you've been more active on IRC for a longer period :)
[11:13] <Seveas> mako, that wasn't me
[11:13] <Seveas> I quoted imbrandon
[11:13] <sacater> mako: i have been
[11:13] <sacater> where the heck has LaserJock got to
[11:13] <sacater> sigh
[11:13] <mako> Seveas: right, ok
[11:14] <elmo> sabdfl: not in schools, not as an exam-ed course no
[11:14] <LaserJock> oh sorry
[11:14] <LaserJock> was doing an experiment
[11:14] <sacater> :o
[11:14] <elmo> of course, I didn't know we had SATs, so what do I know
[11:14] <welp> LaserJock: did you blow anything up? ^_-
[11:14] <LaserJock> welp: not today, just some molecules
[11:14] <sabdfl> welp: thanks for visiting, feel welcome to hang out here any time, we should share ideas with gentoo more often
[11:14] <sacater> LaserJock: make with the vouching..
[11:15] <mc44> elmo: SATs are used for school league tables and nothing else :)
[11:15] <sacater> sabdfl: that was one of my plans on my wiki page if you saw
[11:15] <LaserJock> well, I don't have a ton to say about sacater. He's been in #ubuntu-motu for a while and I sponsored his upload
[11:15] <welp> sacater: where's your wiki page?
[11:15] <Seveas> welp, wiki.ubuntu.com/sacater
[11:15] <sacater> welp: wiki.ubuntu.com/sacater
[11:15] <sacater> :o
[11:16] <LaserJock> I hope to see him do more and eventually become a MOTU some day
[11:16] <sacater> Seveas: great minds think alike :P
[11:16] <Seveas> sacater, lousy minds do the same
[11:16] <LaserJock> seems like he's on the path there
[11:16] <sacater> LaserJock: thank you :D
[11:16] <ompaul> ehh wrt his help Feb 03 21:52:41 <sacater>  my first record of him helping
[11:16] <Seveas> sacater clearly doesn't lack enthousiasm
[11:17] <sacater> :D
[11:17] <ajmitch> at least judging from the amount of bug mail from him in my mailbox
[11:17] <sacater> er hem!
[11:17] <sacater> :P
[11:17] <sacater> ajmitch: how much mail
[11:17] <sacater> ajmitch: i havnt done that much with bugs lately
[11:17] <sacater> more answers
[11:18] <ajmitch> ~100 or so emails on ubuntu-bugs
[11:18] <Seveas> sacater, answers is good
[11:18] <Seveas> we need more people in the Q&A section
[11:18] <ajmitch> a number of which have had debdiffs or bug triaging
[11:18] <ajmitch> so I'd support him as a member
[11:18] <sacater> whoot!
[11:18] <welp> what's bug triaging?
[11:19] <sacater> welp: bug fixing, reporting etc
[11:19] <ajmitch> Seveas: quite right, enthusiasm is not lacking
[11:19] <welp> it's probably got some equivilant in gentoo...
[11:19] <welp> oh, 'k.
[11:19] <Seveas> welp, assigning to the correct product, setting priorities, making sure all needed info is there, talking to reporters
[11:19] <Seveas> checking duplicates
[11:19] <apokryphos> yes, quite a bit of bug triaging on gentoo too 8)
[11:19] <sabdfl> ok, i would like to see a slightly longer participation
[11:19] <welp> sounds like gentoo's bug wrangling ;)
[11:19] <ajmitch> Seveas: if I'm not here when it comes to ScottK, I'll throw in my support for him - he's been doing some great work with universe lately
[11:20] <Seveas> ajmitch, noted, thanks
[11:20] <sabdfl> sacater: are  you motivated to stay part of the community? even if we ask you to come back in two months?
[11:20] <sacater> oh hell yes
[11:20] <sacater> ubuntu pwns
[11:20] <sacater> :D
[11:20] <highvoltage> heh.
[11:20] <sabdfl> ok. elmo, mako?
[11:20] <mako> sabdfl: you beat me to it
[11:20] <mako> soudns wonderful
[11:21] <Seveas> sacater, keep up the good work!
[11:21] <sacater> :D
[11:21] <mako> lets move on quickly
[11:21] <Seveas> apokryphos, you're up
 Seveas mako sabdfl i have to run for a while. I would like to say that apokryphos is a great asset to the ubuntu community and i think he is a great canidate for membership. Thank you :)
[11:21] <apokryphos> thanks
[11:21] <apokryphos> Hi, I'm Francis Giannaros. Wikipage: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FrancisGiannaros ; Launchpad: http://beta.launchpad.net/~apokryphos
[11:21] <apokryphos> I've been using Kubuntu since the Warty days, got involved on IRC/Wiki in late Warty and became an IRC operator around Hoary times (I think). The vast majority of my Ubuntu contributions now are channelled through IRC.
[11:21] <mako> i need to leave in 10 minutes.. will be back in half a hour or so
[11:21] <apokryphos> I'm an operator in most of the major Ubuntu channels, and contact for -uk and -gr; my jobs these days include helping out users, ensuring a smooth running in the channels, and discovering new types of colourful language when trying to deal with ban appeals in -ops :)
[11:21] <elmo> (fine by me)
[11:21] <highvoltage> sacater: may I slip in that we need some help at edubuntu too? ;)
[11:21] <apokryphos> I'm also [more]  involved with the openSUSE project
[11:21] <bddebian> highvoltage: :-)
[11:21] <Seveas> and I'd like to add an enormous cheer to that. apokryphos is LONG overdue for membership, he's been helping in IRC land for ages
[11:22] <sacater> highvoltage: im always in #edubuntu nowadays, shout if you need me
[11:22] <highvoltage> sacater: great!
[11:22] <welp> whoa, whs there some kind of decision made about sacater? if there was, i seem to have missed it.
[11:22] <mako> i've certainly seen apokryphos around for a long time
[11:22] <apokryphos> hm, vouching.. I guess any IRC operators in here may help :). ompaul, PriceChild, as well, from a quick glance
[11:22] <imbrandon> welp, for him to come back in 2 months infront of the CC
[11:22] <ompaul> Seveas, +1
[11:22] <sabdfl> welp: we asked him to keep at it, and return in two months
[11:23] <welp> 'k.
[11:23] <apokryphos> and imbrandon 8)
[11:23] <sabdfl> apokryphos: you've been an IRC op since Hoary?
[11:23] <imbrandon> re
[11:23] <mc44> apokryphos is well overdue for dual citizenship :)
[11:23] <apokryphos> sabdfl: I think so. Seveas, do you know?
[11:23] <sabdfl> be nice to have a photo at https://beta.launchpad.net/~apokryphos for new members
[11:24] <sabdfl> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntumembers/+mugshots
[11:24] <Seveas> sabdfl, it may even be before that
[11:24] <mako> i think apokryphos has helped me out a few times when i had op related issues or questions :)
[11:24] <mako> anyone else have testimonials?
[11:24] <imbrandon> also i might note apokryphos is a great help with kde* too :)
[11:24] <sabdfl> ok, then +1 from me on the back of a longstanding contribution to the community
[11:24] <Seveas> sabdfl, but I don't keep logs for that long (they're over 100meg/month)
[11:25] <apokryphos> sabdfl: I'll add one soon, sure.
[11:25] <Seveas> sabdfl, +mugshots !
[11:25] <Seveas> omg :)
[11:25] <PriceChild> haha love that page
[11:25] <Seveas> yeah
[11:26] <ompaul> mako, he is (A) sane (B) useful (C) good technically
[11:26] <sabdfl> my latest small addition to lp.net :-)
[11:26] <ompaul> mako, and he has been useful longer
[11:26] <ompaul> than I was
[11:27] <sabdfl> elmo? mako?
[11:27] <Seveas> yikes... I'm killing my firefox... searched for apokryphos in the bantracker and the list is quite long :)
[11:27] <mako> oh i didn't see you'd voted
[11:27] <apokryphos> heh
[11:27] <mako> yes, it's a +1 from me as well, long time work like this should be recognized :)
[11:27] <mako> apokryphos: glad you've stuck around :)
[11:28] <highvoltage> ha! some ubuntu members have big heads ;)
[11:28] <Seveas> (btw: I'll be doing the launchpad work after the meeting)
[11:28] <elmo> +1
[11:28] <apokryphos> highvoltage: it's from the ego polishing at such events; /me's head is getting gradually larger 8)
[11:28] <Seveas> apokryphos, congratulations!
[11:28] <Seveas> Ekushey, you're up
[11:28] <mako> one more, quickly, and then i need to run although i'll probably catch the end of hte meeting
[11:28] <apokryphos> thanks guys
[11:29] <atoponce> apokryphos: congrats!
[11:29] <highvoltage> apokryphos: :)
[11:29] <emonkey> apokryphos, congrats
[11:29] <mindspin> congrats apokryphos
[11:29] <Ekushey> Hello Seveas
[11:29] <ranf> congrats
[11:29] <Ekushey> My name is Russell, I'm from Bangladesh. I've been doing FOSS and Linux advocacy in my country for the last 5 years old so, and co-founded a LUG.
[11:29] <Ekushey> #
[11:29] <Ekushey> I'm the team leader and contact person for this team.
[11:29] <Ekushey> #
[11:29] <Ekushey> I maintain [WWW]  ubuntu-bd.org. I translate Ubuntu related news that goes on in this site.
[11:29] <sabdfl> hey Ekushey, welcome
[11:29] <mako> also, someone should chastise all the people who signed up on the wiki today.. i thought we were discouraging this somehow :)
[11:29] <sabdfl> wiki and lp url's?
[11:29] <Ekushey> my wiki page is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Russell
[11:30] <Seveas> mako, in the future I'll put big 'DO NOT DIT
[11:30] <Seveas> mako, in the future I'll put big 'DO NOT EDIT' notices 4 days before
[11:30] <Ekushey> LP is at https://launchpad.net/~russelljohn
[11:30] <micahcowan> mako, in my defense, jono gave his "go ahead" early this morning :)
[11:30] <Ekushey> sorry i'm lagging a bit
[11:30] <ompaul> mako, can't it be locked?
[11:30] <Seveas> some of the last-minute people are ill-prepared, although we've been fixing it for some
[11:30] <micahcowan> or maybe it was last night.
[11:31] <Seveas> micahcowan, jono is not on the CC and hasn't been to many of its meetings :)
[11:31] <micahcowan> Seveas, I know; but mako asked me to pass it by him to see what he thought.
[11:31] <mako> ompaul: it's not that big a deal, just a push to get people to think ahead :)
[11:32] <ompaul> mako, they are too busy fixing bugs :)
[11:32] <Ekushey> Sevaeas, i'm sweating
[11:32] <micahcowan> Sorry Ekushey, didn't mean to steal from your time :(
[11:32] <Seveas> Ekushey, relax, they're looking over your info now
[11:32] <Ekushey> Seveas, okay
[11:32] <Seveas> no need to sweat, there will not be full cavity searces or other scary things
[11:33] <Ekushey> :)
[11:33] <bddebian> What, they don't do those anymore??
[11:34] <sputnik> Hi! - I am Sputnik from the german kubuntu-community. Before I have to leave now I would like to promote candidate emonkey today who is on the list later. Emonkey has done a good job so far for the community here around and I trust his actvities.
[11:34] <mako> Ekushey: anyone here to advocate for you?
[11:34] <emonkey> sputnik, thx
[11:34] <pygi> Ekushey, it's all good, they'll just eat you and cook for dinner
[11:34] <pygi> that's all there is involved with getting accepted
[11:34] <pygi> read the fine prints Ekushey :p
[11:35] <Ekushey> mako, it's late at night here so i couldn't bring anyone
[11:35] <kkubasik> yeah, im In a similar boat
[11:35] <Ekushey> it's 3:35 am now
[11:35] <mako> Ekushey: remind me, did you present your loco to us?
[11:35] <kkubasik> mine just offered to leave a message on the wiki page
[11:36] <kkubasik> I'll let you know how that goes
[11:36] <Ekushey> mako, yes, it approved by CC
[11:36] <ajmitch> kkubasik: that's ok, we know that bhale would've supported you
[11:36] <mako> Ekushey: your wiki page is a little thin
[11:37] <Ekushey> byt Jono didn't add it to the list cause he wanted us to grow a little more. it's almost been 6 months now.
[11:37] <mako> Ekushey: since most of your work is in your loco team, it seems, it would help to have people there, because its hard for us to see what you've done within that team
[11:37] <mako> ok. you should work with jono on that
[11:37] <sabdfl> Ekushey: could you tell us about the local community, and your role in that?
[11:37] <mako> and i'd feel better if you had some testimonials
[11:38] <sabdfl> it's tricky for folks in asia, given the current CC spread
[11:38] <mako> in any case, i really need to go or i'm going be in trouble :)
[11:38] <sabdfl> we do need to address that
[11:38] <Ekushey> sabdfl, i mostly do the advocacy part
[11:38] <mako> i'll be back soon, please just keep going and i'll look over thins
[11:38] <Seveas> mako, ack
[11:38] <sabdfl> mako, are you ok if elmo and I +1 ekushey based on further conversation?
[11:38] <sabdfl> ok, mako can +1 or defer later
[11:39] <Ekushey> we're working on to popularise ubuntu between computer users, mostly students
[11:39] <sabdfl> Ekushey: i'm basically happy with your membership application, because it seems to me you've been making a big contribution to free software locally for some time, and ubuntu has been your focus
[11:39] <sabdfl> could you tell us about some of your work?
[11:40] <sabdfl> do you work or study at NSU?
[11:40] <Seveas> sabdfl, sorry to interfere, but doing this for every candidate makes these meetings very long. Candidates should come prepared or be defered if we don't want the grueling lomg meetings of yore back
[11:40] <Ekushey> sabdfl, no, i studied from another university
[11:40] <sabdfl> ok. ekushey, in deference to other candidates, could you get some testimonials from the other folks on your team?
[11:40] <sabdfl> and come back for the next meeting
[11:41] <sabdfl> sorry, i know it's very late there now
[11:41] <sabdfl> i like what i see here
[11:41] <Ekushey> sabdfl, yes i can do that
[11:41] <sabdfl> thanks very much
[11:41] <Ekushey> yw
[11:41] <sacater> #im going to bed now, gnight everyone
[11:41] <sabdfl> perhaps even emailing them in a single mail, cc'd to the CC and to the folks providing the testimonials
[11:41] <sabdfl> night sacater
[11:41] <sabdfl> next?
[11:41] <Seveas> kkubasik,
[11:41] <kkubasik> yello
[11:41] <kkubasik> 1 se
[11:41] <kkubasik> Hey, I'm Kevin Kubasik, a college student at Case Western Reserve University. I am an active member of the Gnome Foundation and focus most of my programmatic energies into Beagle Desktop Search. About 4 months ago I started to get involved with rolling packages for MOTU, I am now preparing to take over for the current Beagle packager (Brandon Hale). I currently handle most of the launchpad bug-flow, and still hack heavily upstream. I
[11:42] <pochu> goodn8 sacater, and congrats :)
[11:42] <Ekushey> sabdfl, alright i'll send the e-mail.
[11:42] <sabdfl> thanks Ekushey
[11:42] <sabdfl> kkubasik: url's?
[11:43] <Seveas> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KevinKubasik
[11:43] <Seveas> https://launchpad.net/~kkubasik/
[11:43] <kkubasik> oo, my bad, sorry
[11:44] <kkubasik> Yeah, I wasn't sure if I should link to all the stuff off of my launchpad page from the wiki, since it seemed a little silly to be like 'I have answerd lots of bugs'
[11:44] <Seveas> Karma:  9772
[11:44] <Seveas> nice
[11:44] <kkubasik> its mostly from beagle, edgy shipped a crasher on shutdown
[11:45] <kkubasik> wasn't handling SIGTERMS'
[11:45] <kkubasik> so beagle hung until killed, so apport saw a crash
[11:45] <kkubasik> and we got like 25 of those a day for a few weeks
[11:46] <kkubasik> that's one of the big reasons I started getting involved, most of the beagle dev team was novell
[11:46] <kkubasik> and we weren't really 'with' the ubuntu release cycle
[11:46] <kkubasik> the upstream didn't know what ubuntu was doing etc.
[11:47] <Seveas> do you think beagle will soon/ever be suitable to include by default?
[11:47] <kkubasik> so I got more involved with it
[11:47] <kkubasik> Seveas: most definatly I think festy +1 is very doable
[11:47] <kkubasik> if not in demand
[11:47] <Nafallo> gutsy :-)
[11:47] <kkubasik> awesome... :)
[11:48] <kkubasik> but yeah, that's why I'm starting to consider desktop-wide integration
[11:48] <kkubasik> my perfect world would have evolution,f-spot and banshee (for starters) all utilizng beagle
[11:49] <sabdfl> acapella rocks :-)
[11:49] <kkubasik> and the code its pretty easy, its just the planning
[11:49] <kkubasik> yeah!
[11:49] <sabdfl> kkubasik: this is a great contribution, and over quite a period of time too
[11:49] <kkubasik> thank you
[11:49] <sabdfl> i'm quite happy to +1 your membership
[11:49] <elmo> +1
[11:49] <kkubasik> :)
[11:49] <Seveas> ok, we'll let mako ack later there
[11:49] <sabdfl> mako will ack later i'm sure
[11:49] <Seveas> ranf, you're up
[11:49] <sabdfl> go beagle!
[11:49] <ranf_> I am Ralf. I live in Germany. Wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ranf Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/~ranf
[11:49] <ranf_> Long time Linux user (I'm not sure. About 10 years).
[11:49] <ranf_> Ubuntu user since Warty Warthog (4.10). My laptop runs Xubuntu.
[11:49] <ranf_> I mostly do help on the german forums these days. ubuntuforums.org has gotten too crowded for me :-)
[11:49] <kkubasik> thanks again!
[11:50] <Nafallo> sabdfl: doglover ;-)
[11:50] <zenwhen> hello
[11:50] <kkubasik> and think about the awesome things beagle can do in gusty when it comes spec-time :)
[11:51] <Seveas> ranf_, your documented contributions seem a little thin, are there other things you have done?
 Hi! - I am Sputnik from the german kubuntu-community. Before I have to leave now I would like to promote candidate emonkey today who is on the list later. Emonkey has done a good job so far for the community here around and I trust his actvities.
[11:51] <ranf_> sf.net ?
[11:51] <ranf_> sf.net ok?
[11:51] <Seveas> ranf_, ubuntu specific things count here :)
[11:51] <ranf_> ok
[11:51] <Seveas> err, wrong paste before, that was for emonkey
[11:52] <micahcowan> I wondered...
[11:52] <Seveas> I thought I had one for ranf_ as wel but I don't :)
[11:52] <ranf_>      * reported some bugs that bit myself. And tried to help on some others.
[11:52] <ranf_>      * made minor changes to some Wiki pages
[11:52] <Seveas> ranf_, your karma is 70, that's nowhere near a sustained contribution on bugs
[11:52] <Seveas> and you mention one wikipage
[11:53] <Seveas> (is there a way in moinmoin to see a summary for an editor?)
[11:55] <ranf_> my karma was (guessing here) over 240. some months ago.
[11:55] <bddebian> That's probably about what mine is lately :-(
[11:56] <micahcowan> bddebian = 1781
[11:56] <ranf_> bddebian, what does that mean for me?
[11:56] <bddebian> ranf_: Nothing, sorry, I was whining
[11:57] <elmo> sabdfl's ISP just dropped him off the net
[11:57] <elmo> he'll be back ASAP
[11:57] <Seveas> ah ok
[11:57] <Seveas> it was disturbingly quiet
[11:57] <ranf_> I had probs as well
[11:59] <elmo> ranf: while I appreciate your contributions so far, seveas has a point, do you think it'd be possible for you to keep plugging away and come back after a while, possibly with some cheerleaders for places where it might not be so obvious you're doing good stuff (e.g. the .de forums)?
[11:59] <ranf_> Seveas, thin? how do you count? Based on number of posts in forum?
[11:59] <ranf_> s/in/in a/
[11:59] <bddebian> Gents, I have to leave also.  Please give a +1 for ScottK for me.  Lots of bug triaging/fixing
[12:00] <Seveas> ranf_, based on the things you say you do. That includes karma, forumposts, the other things you mention
[12:00] <Seveas> bddebian, noted
[12:00] <sabdf1> hi, sorry folks
[12:00] <Nafallo> sabdfl: wb
[12:00] <sabdf1> telecomms glitch
[12:00] <sabdf1> ranf still up?
[12:00] <ranf_> yup
[12:00] <Seveas> ranf_, I'm not saying you don't do enough, just that if you do, you could document it better so we know. I'm more than willing to help you with that
[12:01] <ranf_> making noise you mean?
[12:02] <Seveas> no, I mean specifying everything you do on your wikipage
[12:02] <ranf_> ok
[12:02] <sabdf1> ranf_: i was going to ask about bug work
[12:03] <sabdf1> it looks like you have only really reported bugs that affect you
[12:03] <sabdf1> it would be nice to see contributions made to bugs that affect others, too
[12:03] <ranf_> How could I report others? That I can't reproduce?
[12:03] <sabdf1> membership is a reflection of contribution to the community, over time
[12:03] <sabdf1> well, trying to reproduce them is useful
[12:03] <sabdf1> gives additional data
[12:04] <Seveas> or help debugging/triaging them
[12:04] <sabdf1> separates easy bugs from hard bugs etc
[12:04] <PriceChild> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage
[12:05] <ranf_> My LP page has more bugs than the Wiki. I don't like duplicating info
[12:05] <micahcowan> Subscribing to rejected or other situations can be a bit cumbersome, but can also be a good way to let lp document what bugs you've touched.
[12:07] <Seveas> sabdf1, telco problems again or still pondering?
[12:07] <sabdf1> still pondering
[12:08] <Nafallo> hmm
[12:08] <Nafallo> Seveas: you shouldn't have asked ;-)
[12:08] <sabdf1> ranf_: are you working closely with anybody who could comment on your contribution?
[12:09] <ranf_> to be fair no
[12:09] <Seveas> mako, hi
[12:09] <Nafallo> aha. l and 1 are diffrent things :-P
[12:09] <Seveas> mako, elmo/sabdfl +1'ed kkubasic, currently discussing ranf_
[12:10] <mako> right
[12:10] <sabdf1> ranf_: i'd rather defer this a month or so, is that ok?
[12:11] <sabdf1> i see now that most of the bugs you are subscribed to are not bugs you reported
[12:11] <sabdf1> which is good
[12:11] <sabdf1> means you are involved in helping to track fixes for issues generally
[12:11] <sabdf1> but i'm still missing a stong sense of the scale of your contributions, and perhaps having some folks you've collaborated with give a comment or two would help
[12:11] <sabdf1> s/stong/strong/
[12:12] <ranf_> let's defer.
[12:12] <Seveas> ok, ranf_: if you need help with the wikipage, just poke me
[12:12] <mako> alright then
[12:12] <ranf_> Seveas, will do.
[12:12] <Seveas> ScottK, you're up next
[12:12] <ScottK> I'm Scott Kitterman.  I've used Ubuntu for roughly a year - both servers and Kubuntu Desktop.  I do KDE testing and general bug triaging.  For Feisty I've been involved in MOTU.  I did new packages and merges/sync requests/bug fixes.  Wiki is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScottKitterman and LP is https://launchpad.net/~kitterman .
 Seveas: if I'm not here when it comes to ScottK, I'll throw in my support for him - he's been doing some great work with universe lately
 Gents, I have to leave also.  Please give a +1 for ScottK for me.  Lots of bug triaging/fixing
[12:13] <ScottK> There was also e-mail from crimsun to the cc list.
[12:13] <Nafallo> +1 for ScottK :-)
[12:13] <Riddell> ooh, I support ScottK, he does lots of handy testing and bug fixing
[12:14] <sabdf1> ScottK: what's the status of SPF?
[12:14] <ScottK> It's currently an experimental RFC (4408)
[12:14] <yeager> ScottK: SPF is always welcome. We (my company) will implement it (and DNSSEC) on 56 domains next week
[12:14] <sabdf1> lots of bug karma - great work!
[12:14] <ScottK> It is not perfect, but for e-mail forgery protection it's the best/most deployed thing there is
[12:15] <ScottK> yeager: Cool. Ping me if you need help.
 I have to run too. +1 for apokryphos and ScottK for membership. :) ttyl  everyone
[12:15] <sabdf1> https://launchpad.net/~kitterman/+packages
[12:15] <sabdf1> shows the coverage nicely
[12:15] <sabdf1> +1 from me
 +1 for ScottK :-)
[12:15] <Seveas> meh, Nafallo repeated that already :)