[09:06] <txwikinger> @schedule London
[09:06] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/London: 21 Apr 18:00: Support Team | 24 Apr 21:00: Technical Board | 25 Apr 21:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 21:00: MOTU | 26 Apr 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 01 May 16:00: Kernel Team
[03:40] <popey> @schedule
[03:40] <ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 21 Apr 17:00: Support Team | 24 Apr 20:00: Technical Board | 25 Apr 20:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 20:00: MOTU | 26 Apr 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 01 May 15:00: Kernel Team
[06:53] <theCore> So, who is here for the support team meeting?
[06:54] <popey> o/
[06:54] <popey> in and out and around about
[06:54] <theCore> that's good
[06:54] <marianom> theCore: I'm here for the meeting
[06:54] <popey> kids bath time so it's a busy time in this house :S
[06:55] <marianom> hi popey
[06:55] <theCore> hi marianom
[06:55] <marianom> hi theCore
[06:55] <popey> not sure how much I will be able to contribute, sorry
[06:56] <theCore> popey, that's okay
[06:56] <theCore> hopefully, more people will show up
[06:58] <popey> mailman will tell you
[06:58] <popey> dunno who is the admin of the list tho
[06:58] <theCore> 30
[06:58] <theCore> it's me
[06:58] <popey> people who have posted or subscribers?
[06:58] <theCore> subscribers
[06:58] <popey> thats not a lot is it
[06:58] <popey> :(
[06:59] <theCore> that's start
[06:59] <popey> quite low traffic list, we need to pimp it (as jono would say)
[06:59] <theCore> *a start
[07:00] <theCore> yeah but right now time is the problem for me
[07:00] <theCore> that's why I want to get new admin
[07:01] <popey> to admin the list?
[07:01] <popey> I'll volunteer if needed. I have some experience in that area
[07:01] <theCore> moderator on the list, and admin on lp
[07:02] <theCore> the list don't take much of my time
[07:02] <theCore> what I am looking for is someone for motivating the "troops"
[07:03] <popey> :)
[07:03] <popey> well, I am giving a session during the open week next week all about support - specifically the answer tracker in launchpad
[07:03] <popey> maybe we could get some people in that way?
[07:03] <popey> push the help team
[07:04] <theCore> sure, that would certainly be a great idea
[07:04] <marianom> do you guys find there's not enough people answering?
[07:04] <theCore> marianom, depends
[07:04] <jsgotangco> hmm, didn't know there was a support team :)
[07:04] <jsgotangco> (hi btw)
[07:04] <theCore> jsgotangco, hi
[07:04] <marianom> hi jsgotangco
[07:04] <popey> marianom: answering on the ubuntu-users mailing list, forums, irc or answer tracker?
[07:05] <marianom> popey:  answer tracker. i find the others pretty cover and I considered answer tracker was exactly the same.
[07:06] <popey> yeah, i think the answer tracker isnt very well known
[07:06] <popey> which is one reason for the session next week
[07:06] <jsgotangco> its quite solid for this release though
[07:06] <popey> to promote its use amongst people with problems, but also with people who are wanting to help
[07:07] <marianom> what I think we need is a little bit of more organization. e.g. we need statistics of what people is asking so we can, for example, feed the documentation team.
[07:07] <popey> indeed
[07:07] <theCore> marianom, exactly
[07:08] <popey> I am trying to pull together what people are asking so I can create screencasts that are useful
[07:08] <marianom> I think forums can provide that with the tag system but I fail see a good reporting system in lp
[07:08] <txwikinger> hi folks.. sorry for being late
[07:08] <marianom> hi txwikinger
[07:08] <popey> hey txwikinger
[07:08] <theCore> marianom, in fact, reporting frequently to the docteam is my primary project, I want to accomplish
[07:09] <marianom> theCore: ok.
[07:09] <theCore> hi txwikinger
[07:09] <theCore> however, I ain't sure how we could do that efficiently
[07:10] <theCore> tag support in the answer tracker?
[07:10] <popey> speak to Matthew East, mdke on irc, he might be the best person to talk to about that theCore
[07:10] <marianom> theCore: I was thinking about that
[07:10] <popey> i believe tag support is coming
[07:11] <popey> there are a few new features that we will be talking about in the open week next week
[07:11] <txwikinger> maybe as well that we can change the package
[07:11] <marianom> txwikinger: great idea. users asking generally use the wrong clasificacion, IMHO
[07:12] <popey> should we start going through the items on the agenda
[07:12] <popey> ?
[07:12] <theCore> the first thing, I would like to get done today is defining some sort of support guidelines/standard
[07:12] <theCore> popey, yes
[07:13] <popey> a how-to for support people?
[07:13] <txwikinger> Maybe as well a little bit the goal
[07:13] <theCore> popey, yes
[07:14] <txwikinger> here it is far more difficult than in commercial technical support
[07:14] <popey> txwikinger: agreed
[07:14] <popey> especially when some new person arrives and gives duff advice
[07:14] <txwikinger> there you can say things like we want to spend 80% of our time on 20% of the biggest customer or something like that
[07:14] <txwikinger> Here the question is.. how far do you go?
[07:14] <popey> before giving up?
[07:15] <txwikinger> yep
[07:15] <popey> thats tricky
[07:15] <txwikinger> I know
[07:15] <popey> depends on what kind of mood i am in to be honest
[07:15] <popey> sometimes I will go waaaay too farr
[07:15] <theCore> txwikinger, but also, much more important
[07:15] <popey> spending maybe an hour or so on one ticket
[07:15] <txwikinger> True.. and it probably will never be a strict rule
[07:15] <popey> other times I will look at a ticket, and just close it because its too " hard"
[07:15] <popey> we are human after all
[07:15] <txwikinger> :D
[07:15] <marianom> a goal will be motivating.
[07:15] <popey> and we assume someone else will look at it
[07:16] <txwikinger> popey: But that is fine.. we come with different skills and what is difficult for one person may actually be easy for the other and vice-versa
[07:16] <theCore> popey, yeah, I saw many of these "hard" tickets
[07:17] <theCore> also saw, many of these "just google" tickets
[07:17] <txwikinger> Or sometimes it is not hard, but people wanting every single step because they are too lazy to read the docu
[07:17] <popey> theCore: :(
[07:17] <txwikinger> which is fine to an extent, but there is a point where it goes too far
[07:17] <popey> i have in the past spoken to people personally about the support they give
[07:17] <theCore> txwikinger, then, this is where the documentation is useful for us
[07:18] <popey> emailing or IM'ing them to ask them to be a bit more considerate
[07:18] <txwikinger> theCore: true
[07:18] <popey> maybe if we had a wiki page, we could direct new support people to it?
[07:18] <popey> so it is less of a personal attack and more of a "hey, welcome to support, check out this, it's our manual!"
[07:19] <txwikinger> good idea
[07:19] <popey> need to make sure we don't ALL spam the newbies though ;)
[07:19] <marianom> do we "maybe" need a few rules like in ubuntuforums?
[07:19] <popey> definately
[07:19] <popey> not rules, guidelines
[07:19] <theCore> yes, I think we could use the Ubuntu Nun team guidelines, as a template
[07:19] <popey> rules is too strong in my opinion
[07:19] <marianom> no RTFM and stuff
[07:19] <popey> definately no rtfn
[07:19] <marianom> ok, guidelines.
[07:19] <popey> er, m
[07:19] <txwikinger> Doesn't the CoC cover that?
[07:19] <popey> you get kicked from #ubuntu for saying that!
[07:20] <popey> !rtfm
[07:20] <ubotu> Words like noob, jfgi, stfu or rtfm are not welcome in this channel. Period.
[07:20] <theCore> txwikinger, roughly
[07:20] <popey> see
[07:20] <marianom> upps
[07:20] <marianom> the machines....
[07:21] <theCore> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUsersNetworkGuidelines
[07:21] <theCore> they got some good stuff there
[07:23] <popey> is that team/project still active?
[07:23] <theCore> yes
[07:23] <theCore> they are doing #ubuntu-classroom
[07:24] <popey> ooo when?
[07:24] <popey> hmm, cant see it
[07:24] <theCore> however, I think they're having problems finding "teachers"
[07:25] <popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek as part of that?
[07:26] <theCore> I am not sure
[07:26] <theCore> anyway...
[07:27] <theCore> I think maybe rewarding support people with some sort of recognition would encourage more people in
[07:27] <popey> they get karma
[07:28] <theCore> yeah, but that's only on lp
[07:28] <theCore> would it possible to do something similar for #ubuntu and the Ubuntu-users list?
[07:28] <popey> we could use mls to create a "top contributors" list for the mailing list
[07:29] <popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/MailingListStats like that
[07:29] <marianom> ummm, there's people helping everywhere and they do it like us, because they can. I think the problem is that answer tracker is not as known as others
[07:29] <theCore> marianom, perhaps
[07:30] <popey> agreed
[07:30] <popey> i not some people dont realise that the answer tracker isnt realtime either
[07:30] <theCore> maybe, it's just because people like IRC and the ML better?
[07:31] <txwikinger> IRC is good for a dialog, the answer tracker is good for statistical analysis if it gets enhanced a little
[07:32] <txwikinger> and as knowledge db
[07:32] <Treenaks> txwikinger: only if you can also edit the questions a bit
[07:32] <popey> i believe they are planning to add a feature to the answer tracker whereby they show "trusted" users or known "experts" with a symbol next to their name, like the coffee beans in the forum
[07:32] <Treenaks> txwikinger: Some of the questions are just plain weird (no offence..), mostly because the author isn't a native English speaker
[07:32] <theCore> popey, that would be great
[07:33] <txwikinger> Treenaks: I refer more to the answers
[07:33] <Treenaks> or doesn't understand the first bit about using his computer ('what's clicking?')
[07:33] <Treenaks> txwikinger: oh ok :)
[07:35] <theCore> so, what do you think of the Ubuntu-user mailing list?
[07:35] <marianom> I think that if Answer Tracker can make a difference compared to other souces is that it can be use as a valid sample of what's people need to know. as txwikinger says.
[07:35] <theCore> ever, done support on it?
[07:36] <popey> i unsubscribed from -user, too high traffic volume
[07:36] <theCore> popey, I did too
[07:36] <marianom> I'm not there.
[07:37] <theCore> and if we did, I wonder who would not
[07:37] <Treenaks> I unsubscribed from -user a long time ago -- I do keep up with the local list (ubuntu-nl) though
[07:37] <Treenaks> lots of great people there :)
[07:37] <popey> :)
[07:37] <txwikinger> Would it make sense to somehow have questions from the mailing list go to the answer tracker?
[07:38] <popey> aaaartgh
[07:38] <marianom> I'm helping in my country mailing list
[07:38] <popey> that would be horrid in my opinion
[07:38] <Treenaks> txwikinger: how would you know what messages are questions, and which ones are answers?
[07:38] <popey> my worry is that when/as the support tracker gets more popular, the quality of service goes down
[07:38] <txwikinger> you could do it like bugs.debian
[07:38] <popey> not up
[07:38] <popey> but the support tracker effectively already is a mailing list
[07:39] <popey> if you subscribe to it you get every question and answer in the mail
[07:39] <theCore> popey, that's why we some base guidelines
[07:39] <marianom> yeah, and more than 200? mails a day
[07:39] <txwikinger> popey: I agree with that. What I am looking for is that people can use both technologies within one structure
[07:40] <theCore> txwikinger, I not sure if it would be a good idea, either
[07:40] <theCore> I am not*
[07:40] <txwikinger> but maybe it is more trouble then it is worth
[07:41] <theCore> I think the best thing, is splitting the support lists into local groups
[07:41] <popey> mailing list has a lot of discussion, which I dont think is appropriate on the answer tracker
[07:41] <theCore> popey, yeah
[07:41] <popey> answer tracker should be, Q, A, A, A, not Q, and then loads of off topic ramblings
[07:41] <theCore> I don't mean to make it disappear
[07:41] <txwikinger> right. maybe the better solution to make the answer tracker more know but with its specific purpose
[07:42] <txwikinger> so the discussions stay in the ml
[07:42] <txwikinger> more known
[07:42] <popey> agree
[07:42] <theCore> +1
[07:42] <popey> as I say, I'll be pimping the answer tracker on wednesday with Francis Lacoste - the developer
[07:43] <txwikinger> I have already told people in kubuntu-org.de about it and at least one person started to answer questions in German
[07:44] <theCore> I wonder how many questions are asked in a language other than English
[07:45] <marianom> that's a point. for example there's questions in castilian and portuguese that I can't answer them. would it be valid if I translate them so anyone can pick and answer? and the translate the answer too
[07:45] <txwikinger> the languages I subsscribe to I would say about 3-5%
[07:45] <marianom> yeap, I saw 10 questions tops in a month. not more than that.
[07:47] <txwikinger> but I know that a lot of German ubuntu users are more comfortable if they can have a dialogue in German
[07:47] <txwikinger> so a lot of that support happens in the local groups I guess
[07:48] <marianom> I imagine users that ask question ion the tracker and not in english is because they don't know where to go. even lp in in english only
[07:48] <txwikinger> IS that a new localisation task ?
[07:49] <theCore> I think encouraging local support groups more, could solve some of the email volume problems with Ubuntu-users we have.
[07:51] <theCore> that is somehow more rewarding to help someone from your region, than someone from the other side of the globe
[07:52] <txwikinger> Don't know about that, but often it is a matter of the ability to communicate with each other
[07:52] <popey> language barrier?
[07:52] <txwikinger> yep
[07:53] <txwikinger> I am located in UK, but I help out in Germany :)
[07:53] <theCore> so, maybe http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists could point to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList
[07:54] <theCore> however, not all LocoTeam provides support on their list
[07:55] <popey> some actively discourage it
[07:55] <theCore> but some even puts "Provides Local Support: YES!" in bold :)
[07:55] <popey> pushing people towards the "official" support channels, like #ubuntu
[07:55] <theCore> popey, why?
[07:57] <txwikinger> theCore: I think sometimes it is a matter of manpower
[07:57] <theCore> anyway... we are out of time
[07:57] <theCore> txwikinger, yeah, that would make some sense
[07:58] <theCore> btw, how about creating a IRC channel for the helpteam ?
[07:58] <popey> theCore: because you get more eyeballs and braincells in the official support channels than you do in loco team channels/mailing lists
[07:59] <theCore> popey, true
[07:59] <popey> an irc channel with a bot that announced new support tickets would be neat
[07:59] <marianom> I agree
[07:59] <txwikinger> popey: +1
[07:59] <theCore> +1 too
[07:59] <marianom> +1
[07:59] <popey> this has been reported as a bug AIUI
[08:00] <popey> they are waiting for some functionality in launchpad which exposes answers text via some API or something :)
[08:00] <popey> they they said you should be able to go Answers 1234 in the same way you can say bug 1
[08:00] <ubotu> Malone bug 1 in jl "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
[08:00] <popey> and the bot pop up
[08:00] <theCore> :)
[08:01] <txwikinger> what's the problem.. both is lp, isn't it?
[08:01] <Treenaks> txwikinger: bots don't code themselves (yet)
[08:02] <popey> the answers system is separate from bugs
[08:02] <popey> they are aware of it at least
[08:02] <theCore> https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu-bots/+ticket/3490
[08:03] <popey> hehe, i reported that :)
[08:04] <theCore> ok, I need to go
[08:04] <txwikinger> cya theCore
[08:04] <txwikinger> DO we want to have a follow-up meeting? or something regular?
[08:04] <marianom> is there a todo list for this meeting?
[08:05] <theCore> txwikinger, yes
[08:05] <theCore> marianom, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SupportTeam/Agenda
[08:05] <theCore> I will start on the list, later today
[08:05] <theCore> cya all, and thanks for coming
[08:06] <marianom> thanks theCore