[05:48] <nixternal> let the countdown begin!
[09:06] <arruah> hi all ;)
[09:20] <boom_> hello
[09:21] <stevenrushing> was i asked to join here?
[09:21] <stevenrushing> is there anyone here at all?
[09:24] <stevenrushing> howdy howdy
[09:29] <boom_> what time will any class start?
[09:30] <dAndy> 15:00 GMT
[09:30] <dAndy> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[12:37] <jjstwerff> #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[01:07] <harrisony> ot
[01:08] <harrisony> oops, xchat beat me! before i could press enter
[01:18] <Demon012> hey everyone
[01:18] <waleeds> hi
[01:19] <AndrewB> !welcome | Demon012
[01:19] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about welcome - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[01:19] <AndrewB> hmm..
[01:19] <AndrewB> ok.. welcome Demon012
[01:19] <Demon012> hi there andrew
[01:20] <harrisony> !hi | Demon012
[01:20] <ubotu> Demon012: Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-classroom!
[01:20] <AndrewB> harrisony: ;)
[01:20] <harrisony> ta da!
[01:21] <harrisony> :)
[01:21] <Demon012> anyone here a developer? I wish to help advance ubuntu and don't really know where to start (I am a programmer (Have a BTEC National Diploma and HND in Software Development but am not used to open source software dev)
[01:21] <harrisony> you get a hello from me and the bot, 2 for the price of one
[01:21] <Demon012> need someone to show me which way to start running =)
[01:21] <`23meg> Demon012, this is a good place to start --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment
[01:21] <Demon012> ty 23meg
[01:22] <`23meg> np
[01:26] <harrisony> Demon012: #ubuntu-devel
[01:26] <Demon012> ty harris
[01:27] <Demon012> was just typing that question rofl
[01:27] <harrisony> lol
[01:27] <harrisony> you know tab completes a name so you do say dem and then tab and it finishes the name
[01:27] <Demon012> harrisony:
[01:27] <Demon012> so it does ty
[01:27] <harrisony> Lol!
[01:27] <Demon012> haven't used IRC as much as I should do
[01:28] <AndrewB> heh you may end up like me!
[01:29] <Demon012> heh in what way? =)
[01:29] <AndrewB> Well this is window 75 on my irc list..
[01:30] <harrisony> :O
[01:30] <Demon012> lol
[01:30] <Demon012> seems you are a bit of an IRC fanatic then
[01:30] <harrisony> AndrewB: you are
[01:31] <Demon012> I haven't ever had anyone I know who I could get to use IRC
[01:31] <Demon012> they are all MSN freaks =/
[01:31] <Demon012> gotta try and convert em to jabber at some point
[01:31] <harrisony> Demon012: Good Luck!!!!!! never worked for me
[01:32] <Demon012> heh
[01:33] <Demon012> I have been relatively successful at converting the people I have really tried to convert to ubuntu though (got 4 people converted so far)
[01:33] <AndrewB> Demon012: thats great :) keep up the good work.
[01:33] <Demon012> one converted from SuSe the rest from windows
[01:35] <Demon012> (I think when the SuSe computer he setup on the college network took it over by becoming the primary DHCP server despite him not telling it to install a DHCP server kinda convinced him something was wrong with that distro lol)
[01:37] <harrisony> lool
[01:46] <harrisony> back in a few hours (need to get some sleep if i am correct the 1st UOW presentation is at 1am my time and i have school tomorrow :P)
[02:00] <Tm_T> Tejo_B: I think you should keep public away off
[02:00] <Tejo_B> i know, i've already turned it off
[02:01] <Tejo_B> sorry about that
[02:01] <Tm_T> thanks
[02:09] <AndrewB> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/107648
[03:00] <DexInsane> when does this session start?
[03:01] <jono> DexInsane: two hours :)
[03:01] <DexInsane> cheers!
[03:02] <popey> jono: just enough time for you to write it eh?
[03:02] <popey> :)
[03:02] <jono> heh
[03:02] <jono> :)
[03:02] <popey> kettle
[03:02] <popey> pot
[03:02] <popey> :)
[03:02] <DexInsane> its 1am here down in New Zealand.... will have to give it a miss.
[03:02] <DexInsane> *sigh*
[03:03] <popey> :(
[03:04] <elkbuntu> DexInsane, new to Ubuntu?
[03:05] <Sanne> DexInsane: as I understood, there will be session logs available.
[03:10] <popey> Sanne: yes logs will be https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts I suspect
[03:10] <popey> or thereabouts
[03:10] <elkbuntu> popey, is the scribe bot thingie in here?
[03:10] <popey> I would subscribe to the openweek page as they should be linked from there
[03:10] <popey> the who with the what now?
[03:10] <popey> scribes?
[03:11] <elkbuntu> popey, the scribes team bot
[03:11] <popey> no, dont think so
[03:11] <popey> its really only used for meetings
[03:11] <`23meg> it's Mootbot
[03:11] <`23meg> it's here
[03:11] <Sanne> popey: or here (just found it):
[03:11] <Sanne> popey: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Logs
[03:11] <elkbuntu> popey, ok then... ahh.. i see ausimage in the /who so we'll be fine :)
[03:16] <elkbuntu> jono, did i miss anything in the /topic?
[03:16] <jono> looks good elkbuntu :)
[03:16] <elkbuntu> w00t
[03:17] <nalioth> pretty good for 3 in the morning, elkbuntu   :D
[03:18] <dinda> elkbuntu - what is the character limit for each response?
[03:18] <Hobbsee> ooh, open day :0
[03:18] <elkbuntu> nalioth, not quite
[03:19] <elkbuntu> nalioth, try back in 4 hours
[03:19] <elkbuntu> dinda, um... not sure there's a limit
[03:19] <dinda> I noticed things get cut off when I cut and paste text in here
[03:21] <apokryphos> there is one per post, it's probably around 200 characters or something similar
[03:21] <nalioth> dinda: if your copy contains a line break, that'll do it
[03:22] <apokryphos> hm, no, 200 characters is very little. Probably a lot more 8)
[03:22] <dinda> it seems to be about 3 lines, so 200 might be right
[03:23] <dinda> I wonder if it's a server or client issue
[03:23] <apokryphos> definitely server as well, but clients might put on a lower limit
[03:38] <tintin> hello
[03:39] <rohan> hello, tintin
[03:39] <tintin> I tried Ubuntu 7.0.4, but I found that my Network card (BCM4401), is either unsupported, or that I have to do something extra to get things to work. Any ideas?
[03:39] <rohan> damn, this 15.00 UTC is sooo inconvenient for IST people
[03:39] <rohan> tintin: support related questions go to #ubuntu
[03:40] <elkbuntu> rohan, as well as some of asia, australia and new zealand
[03:40] <tintin> ok, thx. sorry
[03:40] <nalioth> rohan: some folks do come here for support questions (they are unaware of Open Week)
[03:40] <freeflying> rohan: bcm4401 can be used under dapper
[03:40] <rohan> elkbuntu: yes :(
[03:40] <rohan> freeflying: ok, please give the solution to tintin if possible
[03:41] <freeflying> rohan: out-of-the-box
[03:41] <rohan> oh
[04:00] <elkbuntu> There is now approximately 1hr until the first session! This session will be Jono Bacon with "Joining the Ubuntu community" ... If you would like to comment, question or discuss this or any of the other sessions that will be held over the next 6 days, please join #ubuntu-classroom-chat. Thank You for coming and please enjoy the week :)
[04:01] <rohan> :)
[04:01] <jono> :)
[04:01] <Rytmis> Go Jono!
[04:01] <Belutz> elkbuntu, will this channel set as moderated?
[04:01] <elkbuntu> Belutz, only if people are naughty
[04:01] <jono> :)
[04:01] <Belutz> ok :) i'll be a good student then
[04:02] <Rytmis> Someone has replaced Jono with a bot that responds with a ":)" every time his name is mentioned :D
[04:02] <Belutz> lol
[04:02] <pochu> hehe
[04:02] <elkbuntu> Rytmis, you didnt know? he *is* a bot ;)
[04:02] <jono> :)
[04:02] <Rytmis> x)
[04:03] <jono> :)
[04:03] <Hobbsee> yep.  definetly a bot
[04:03] <Rytmis> I wonder if the first session is mostly "how to use smileys" :D
[04:03] <Hobbsee> bottle-dancing bot.
[04:03] <jono> Segmentation fault.
[04:03] <pip> what have I missed ?
[04:03] <Rytmis> Buffer overflow? :P
[04:04] <Rytmis> (what with the bottles and all)
[04:05] <pochu> [apport]  jono crashed with SigSegv in smiley()
[04:05] <jono> hehe
[04:05] <wifi^low^signall> kernel panic?
[04:05] <pip> I have heard that in hour ,the class will begin
[04:05] <pochu> pip: yes, in one hour
[04:06] <mc44> oh UTC
[04:06] <mc44> stupid daylight savings
[04:06] <wifi^low^signall> kopral jono :D
[04:07] <pochu> @schedule Madrid
[04:07] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Madrid: 24 Apr 22:00: Technical Board | 25 Apr 22:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 22:00: MOTU | 26 Apr 23:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 01 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 20:00: Mozilla Team
[04:07] <pbx> @schedule Boston
[04:07] <pochu> hmm, don't we have an schedule for the open week? :)
[04:07] <Hobbsee> pochu: in the topic
[04:08] <pbx> @schedule Montreal
[04:08] <ubotu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 24 Apr 16:00: Technical Board | 25 Apr 16:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 16:00: MOTU | 26 Apr 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 01 May 11:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 14:00: Mozilla Team
[04:08] <Tm_T> <3
[04:08] <Halbran> @schedule So Paulo
[04:08] <pochu> yeah, I know the wiki, but I mean here :)
[04:08] <Hobbsee> no
[04:08] <pbx> Halbran: That's Sao_Paulo
[04:08] <pochu> there is also the fridge for the meetings, and we have ubotu ;)
[04:08] <Halbran> @schedule Sao_Paulo
[04:08] <ubotu> Schedule for America/Sao_Paulo: 24 Apr 17:00: Technical Board | 25 Apr 17:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 17:00: MOTU | 26 Apr 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 01 May 12:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 15:00: Mozilla Team
[04:08] <Belutz> is Hobbsee is the famous "sexy lady" from australia?
[04:08] <pochu> Hobbsee: ty
[04:08] <Halbran> pbx: I saw it, thanks. :)
[04:09] <Hobbsee> Belutz: uh, yes.
[04:09] <Rytmis> more like infamous :P
[04:09] <Hobbsee> haha
[04:09] <Belutz> Hobbsee, nice to know you :)
[04:09] <Rytmis> Not that I'd go as far as to disagree (I value my life more than that)
[04:09] <Hobbsee> Belutz: likewise :)
[04:09] <Belutz> Hobbsee, what city in au do you live in?
[04:10] <LostInJapan> @schedule Tokyo, please...
[04:10] <Hobbsee> Belutz: sydney
[04:10] <Belutz> Hobbsee, hey, i've been there on december 2005 :D
[04:10] <rohan> @schedule Mumbai
[04:10] <Hobbsee> :)
[04:10] <Belutz> Hobbsee, i stayed in george street
[04:10] <rohan> @schedule IST
[04:11] <Hobbsee> nice :)
[04:11] <Belutz> yea, my friend rent an apartment in summit aparment
[04:11] <rohan> @schedule Calcutta
[04:11] <ubotu> Schedule for Asia/Calcutta: 25 Apr 01:30: Technical Board | 26 Apr 01:30: Edubuntu | 27 Apr 01:30: MOTU | 27 Apr 02:30: Ubuntu Development Team | 01 May 20:30: Kernel Team | 01 May 23:30: Mozilla Team
[04:11] <Belutz> i was attending my graduation in wollongong uni
[04:11] <LostInJapan> @schedule Tokyo
[04:11] <ubotu> Schedule for Asia/Tokyo: 25 Apr 05:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 05:00: Edubuntu | 27 Apr 05:00: MOTU | 27 Apr 06:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 May 00:00: Kernel Team | 02 May 03:00: Mozilla Team
[04:11] <rohan> this is what ,the open week schedule ?
[04:11] <Hobbsee> no, it's not.
[04:12] <rohan> then /
[04:12] <Hobbsee> it's the meeting schedule
[04:12] <rohan> ah ok :)
[04:12] <Belutz> rohan, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[04:16] <elkbuntu> For those who have just joined, there is now approximately 45minutes until the first session! This session will be Jono Bacon with "Joining the Ubuntu community" ... If you would like to comment, question or discuss this or any of the other sessions that will be held over the next 6 days, please join #ubuntu-classroom-chat. Thank You for coming and please enjoy the week :)
[04:18] <wifi^low^signall> hemmm
[04:20] <_john> Hi Guys, the sessions will start in about 40 mins, right?
[04:20] <ranf> hi
[04:20] <rohan> _john: yes
[04:20] <imbrandon> _john, yup
[04:21] <_john> ok thanks
[04:43] <zaro> xchat --url=irc://irc.freenode.net/#ubuntu-classroom-chat
[04:45] <Toma-> This is a great idea :)
[04:46] <Belutz> jsgotangco, hi
[04:47] <Belutz> jsgotangco, how are you?
[04:47] <jsgotangco> Belutz: not bad, just chilling around and watch as the open week starts :)
[04:48] <PriceChild> jsgotangco, hopefully not... but we'll see :)
[04:48] <PriceChild> jsgotangco, depends, it will be on marks sessions I'm sure.
[04:48] <jsgotangco> yeah
[04:49] <harrisony> its 12:48am in sydney and im cold, it better be worth it and i got school later
[04:55] <PriceChild> !away > Monika|K
[04:56] <Monika|K> I am not away.
[04:56] <imtheface> hello Belutz
[04:56] <imtheface> :)
[04:57] <juliux> PriceChild, i think that was a normal nickchange not an away nick change
[04:57] <PriceChild> juliux, I know sorry :)
[04:57] <Monika|K> :)
[04:58] <rohan> is it started yet ?
[04:58] <harrisony> rohan: just in time
[04:58] <LoneShadow> rohan:3 more mins
[04:58] <therealnanotube> rohan: 2 mins ;)
[04:58] <PriceChild> mc44, woo needed that thanks :)
[04:58] <rohan> :)
[04:58] <LoneShadow> rohan: I thought you said 40mins before :P
[04:59] <sharms> incase Jono fails to show up, I have my presentation prepared: Making love: How, When and Where
[04:59] <rohan> AlexExtreme: hi there :)
[04:59] <rohan> sharms: yeah, i could assist you in demonstrating the practicals
[04:59] <techno_freak> :0
[04:59] <LoneShadow> should we ask everyone to join in #ubuntu-classroom-chat as well ?
[04:59] <harrisony> sharms: we all need that!
[04:59] <harrisony> LoneShadow: yes
[04:59] <LoneShadow> Eeveryone to join in #ubuntu-classroom-chat as well :P
[05:00] <harrisony> :P
[05:00] <harrisony> Flood! lol
[05:00] <jono> hi everyone!
[05:00] <LoneShadow> err, remove the to :D
[05:00] <imbrandon> heya jono
[05:00] <devmodem> jono: hi!
[05:00] <techno_freak> heya jono
[05:00] <jono> :)
[05:00] <jayteeuk> Hi jono.
[05:00] <harrisony> jono: ZOMG!!! I SAW YOU ON IRC!
[05:00] <luigi1015> hi
[05:00] <LoneShadow> hi jono
[05:00] <jono> right lets get this show on the road :)
[05:00] <AlexExtreme> hey Jono
[05:00] <harrisony> woo!
[05:00] <gnomefreak> hi jono ;)
[05:00] <ttthijs> hey jono
[05:01] <Rytmis> mode +m might be in order :)
[05:01] <metronux> hi jono
[05:01] <rohan> jono: great :)
[05:01] <jono> I will wait a few more minutes while the last few people come in :)
[05:01] <h-chew> Hello Jono...
[05:01] <adamant1988> brb
[05:01] <jono> (times like this need AC/DC music playing in the background)
[05:01] <juliux> hi jono
[05:01] <jono> if you have AC/DC put some on :)
[05:01] <SurfingPenyu> Halo jono
[05:01] <gnomonic> Hi Jono!
[05:01] <Rytmis> I'm more in favor of Dark Tranquillity just now
[05:01] <davmor2> jono metallica
[05:01] <rohan> what's AC/DC ?
[05:01] <jono> :)
[05:01] <imbrandon> rohan, a band
[05:01] <harrisony> rohan: :(
[05:01] <AlexExtreme> rohan, it's a band
[05:01] <rohan> imbrandon: ah, ok
[05:01] <jsgotangco> bah.. i have Deep Purple here lol
[05:02] <harrisony> i have daft punk!
[05:02] <rohan> pink floyd for me
[05:02] <erstazi> Led Zeppelin here
[05:02] <imbrandon> Limp Bizkit ftw
[05:02] <erstazi> imbrandon: ah
[05:02] <jmchugh> I have some SOD this morning...
[05:02] <PriceChild> Anyway shall we all let jono start it off? :)
[05:02] <Rytmis> Metal \,,/,
[05:02] <Ankur> Metallica for me
[05:02] <harrisony> or pussycat dolls :P
[05:02] <juliux> beethoven;)
[05:02] <gnomonic> Playing Iron Maiden live at Donington right now.
[05:02] <Watje> Dream Theater!
[05:02] <Phineas> You all lose, Jimi Hendrix ftw
[05:02] <techno_freak> omg!
[05:02] <LoneShadow> rohan: are you a desi ?
[05:02] <jsgotangco> judas priest
[05:02] <Rytmis> (oh my god, I've created a monster)
[05:02] <rohan> LoneShadow: indian, yes
[05:02] <jono> riiiiiiiiiight!
[05:02] <jono> lets get this going :)
[05:02] <Tm_T> how about listening jono instead?
[05:02] <rohan> Tm_T: lol
[05:02] <LoneShadow> rohan: check out #ubuntu-india
[05:02] <sharms> We need a +M, the first rule of dealing with a community is realizing how to shut them up
[05:03] <rohan> sharms: that's insulting
[05:03] <jono> so how is everyone doing today?!!
[05:03] <imbrandon> great !!
[05:03] <sharms> rohan: :)
[05:03] <Demon012> good thankyou jono
[05:03] <harrisony> jono: its 1am this better be good :)
[05:03] <adamant1988> Great, Jono.  Yourself?
[05:03] <ttthijs> excited!
[05:03] <jono> everyone loving feisty?
[05:03] <jayteeuk> Yep
[05:03] <czambran> you bet
[05:03] <Rytmis> Indeed!
[05:03] <Ankur> Yaa
[05:03] <Smegzor> we're not worthy!
[05:03] <spr0k3t> za bombz it is
[05:03] <rohan> jono: yes, with a few gripes :)
[05:03] <elkjaer> yeah.. rocks
[05:03] <metronux> rocks man
[05:03] <davmor2> hell yes
[05:03] <jayteeuk> Pleased and proud.
[05:03] <jsgotangco> gutsy is the new cool now
[05:03] <therealnanotube> i'm still on dapper! long term support, woo! :)
[05:03] <Belutz> jono, i will play manowar then
[05:03] <h-chew> installed and running... no probs...
[05:03] <jono> :)
[05:03] <Demon012> loving fiesty so far
[05:04] <jono> wicked
[05:04] <davmor2> rocks louder than motorhead
[05:04] <CheshireViking> feisty looks good, works well so far
[05:04] <jono> My name is Jono Bacon and I am the Ubuntu Community Manager at Canonical.
[05:04] <harrisony> i need some coke!
[05:04] <tonytiger> I claim my 5
[05:04] <jono> My job is to help run, organise and grow the incredible Ubuntu community. We have in my view, the finest free software community in the world, and this week is all about growing it :)
[05:04] <jono> Ubuntu Open Week is all about bringing together experts in out amazing community and having them help you folks get started and become part of the Ubuntu community
[05:04] <surf3rb0y> does any one know how i can log this chat with bitchx?
[05:05] <Monika|K> Logs will be on the website.
[05:05] <elkbuntu> All questions and discussion to #ubuntu-classroom-chat please.
[05:05] <gnomefreak> everyone keep general chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[05:05] <jono> this session is intended to introduce the week
[05:05] <surf3rb0y> sorry and thanks
[05:05] <jono> and to introduce the ubuntu community and discuss how you can get involved
[05:05] <jono> the way ubuntu open week works is pretty simple
[05:06] <jono> we have a bunch of IRC sessions that are being given by some of our communities finest leaders
[05:06] <jono> each of these leaders will give their session in this channel, and general discussion and questions happens in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[05:06] <jono> keep all chatter and questions to that channel - this channel should only be for the speaker to speak in
[05:07] <jono> asking a question is simple
[05:07] <jono> in #ubuntu-classroom-chat just prefix your question with the nick of the speaker and the word QUESTION
[05:07] <jono> the speaker will then cut out the question and paste in here and answer it
[05:08] <jono> in this particular session I am going to speak for a short while and then have a Q+A session where I can answer your questions
[05:08] <jono> so, lets begin
[05:08] <jono> the ubuntu community is amazing
[05:08] <babangipan> ok bro
[05:08] <jono> really, really frikken amazing!
[05:10] <jono> woo! :)
[05:10] <jono> I am a firm believer that the ubuntu community is the finest example of free software community in the world
[05:10] <jono> we have a hugely diverse range of contributors, spread across the world doing incredible work
[05:10] <jono> the vast majority of contributors work incredibly well together, and the community is a very warm and welcoming place
[05:11] <jono> becoming part of our community not only means you get to contribute to an operating system that millions of people use, but you get to hang out and work with some of the kindest, most enthusastic people you will meet
[05:12] <jono> the community has grown hugely, and in recent years it has become a real force in free software
[05:12] <jono> just our loco teams as an example are growing at often 2000 new subscribers a amonth
[05:12] <jono> this week we will be seeing lots of different parts of the community teaching
[05:13] <jono> this includes teams such as:
[05:13] <jono> MOTU - the team of ubercool heros who maintain Universe - the thousands of applications synced with Debian
[05:13] <jono> everyone of those people needs to bought a beer for their incredible work
[05:14] <jono> so if you like the idea of packaging - you can join MOTU, its a great place to start
[05:14] <jono> if you like talking to people and spreading the word - loco teams are a great place to start
[05:14] <jono> our loco teams are doing INCREDIBLE work
[05:14] <jono> when I fly around, eating terrible airline food and visiting conferences, I meet many of teams, and their work is stunning
[05:15] <jono> we have a loco in pretty much every country in the world - a worldwide network of cool people who do cool things
[05:15] <jono> then of course we have Launchpad
[05:16] <jono> we have a number of sessions on LP this week, dealing with bzr, translations and more
[05:16] <jono> another interesting session is the ubuntu women session by Belinda
[05:17] <jono> all of us want a community defined by equality - and I am particularly keen to see the ubuntu women project continue to do their good work
[05:17] <jono> later today Ben Collins (who looks like Zak Wylde incidentally) will be talking about the kernel team
[05:18] <jono> hardware support in ubuntu is pretty incredible, but the team needs help and Ben is the dude to talk to - be there if kernels do your thing
[05:18] <jono> if you again like spreading the word, Jenda is doing some Marketing sessions - not only about marketing inside the Ubuntu community, but also outside the community
[05:19] <jono> I am really keen to see our teams work together so for example we can feed the marketing team cool loco stories to push out to the wider world
[05:19] <jono> if you don't use Ubuntu but use Kubuntu, Edubuntu or Xubuntu, we also have sessions on these distros too
[05:20] <jono> we have seen huge amounts of interest in these derivatives, and long may they continue to kick arse and take names :)
[05:20] <jono> and of course, there are many other sessions on an intro to packaging, patching packages, ubuntu studio and much more
[05:21] <jono> its going to be a pretty incredible week and a great opportunity for everyone to become part of the rollercoaster that is th eubuntu community
[05:21] <jono> just before I get to the questions, I am going to talk a little about my own work and the bigger community picture
[05:21] <jono> since I started back in September, I have always been keen to be completely open about my work in the community and to always be an approachable person in the community
[05:22] <jono> I always want to be someone you guys and girls can come to with any issues, questions or problems, and I am always keen to gather feedback on my work, both good and bad
[05:22] <jono> I have a simple goal with my work:
[05:23] <jono> make Ubuntu the finest example of free software community
[05:23] <jono> and this is a much easier goal with such incredible people to work with
[05:23] <jono> despite the good stuff, we do face challenges, problems and issues in the community
[05:23] <jono> there are fights, arguments and quarrels
[05:24] <jono> there are vicious rumours spread about bottle dancing and duck fetishes
[05:24] <jono> to help with this we have some governance processes such as the community council and the code of conduct
[05:24] <jono> and increasingly we are creating team councils such as the forums council and the IRC council
[05:25] <jono> the goal here is to create good, sane processes that help everyone do their work easily and effectively
[05:25] <jono> part of this challenge is scaling the community up
[05:26] <jono> we are growing VERY quickly, and as we grow, existing systems and processes will be outgrown and need to be rethought
[05:26] <jono> to achieve this we need to work together
[05:26] <jono> a good example is the loco project
[05:26] <jono> when I started with the loco project there were certain problems:
[05:26] <jono>  * lack of documentation
[05:26] <jono>  * disorganised information, scattered all over the place
[05:27] <jono>  * some chunks of the world (such as the USA an Africa) woefully sparse with LoCo teams
[05:27] <jono>  * no real direction
[05:27] <jono> to resolve these issues the community worked together:
[05:27] <jono>  * regular docs days to write new doc and better organise them
[05:28] <jono>  * the USTeams project working to grow and mentor new US teams
[05:28] <jono>  * regular meetings
[05:28] <jono>  * real leaders in the community helping to regularly run and organise community activities
[05:28] <jono> and now we have a very solid loco community that is working better than every
[05:28] <jono> ever
[05:29] <jono> my role is really to help put these processes in place - not to tell you all what to do, but to help us all work together to solve problems
[05:29] <jono> the key thing is 'working together' - community is not the power of a singular but the combined power of the many, and to achieve this we need good, clear communication and a strong direction
[05:30] <jono> so, we are at exciting times
[05:31] <jono> there is still lots to do, and long road to travel, but together we can all do amazing things
[05:31] <jono> if any of you are ever unsure, concerned or otherwise want to get in touch - my door is always open on IRC, and you can mail me at jono AT ubuntu DOT com
[05:32] <jono> I also organise regular monthly community Q+A IRC sessions in which we can have open discussion about certain issues
[05:32] <jono> right lets get on with questions :)
 jono QUESTION:  I'm interested in contributing as a programmer and will soon be upgrading to a new PC.  Will my ability to contribute be harmed if I decide to use ubuntu 64bit over 32bit
[05:33] <jono> Smegzor: not at all, the arch specific bits are often kernel level - but it depends what you want to hack on - most applications (such as GUI apps) are largely unaffected by arch
 QUESTION: Jono, Are basic GUI config programs packaged in Feisty for migrating users from windows. It will definitely help people who are uncomfortable in modifying xorg.conf
[05:34] <jono> LoneShadow: I believe so - there is a migration tool in the feisty install, and there was work on a windows tool for migration too
[05:34] <jono> LoneShadow: I don't know much more than that, unfortunatly
 jono QUESTION: Sorry for  my english first :-(. I would like to be a new contributing programmer. I have knowledge of C and Perl and I'd like to help the great Ubuntu community. How can I start? I am interested in improving the GNOME for example.
[05:35] <jono> alum: a great place to start is hacking on ubuntu specific applications and frontends - many of these apps are written in Python though
[05:35] <jono> you could you your C skills for patching applications in Ubuntu and helping with packaging
[05:35] <jono> alum: I recommend you ask on the developer mailing list and in #ubuntu-devel :)
 jono:  QUESTION: is Xubuntu officially supported (like kubuntu and edubuntu)
[05:36] <jono> harrisony: it is certainly officially recognised as a project
[05:37] <jono> harrisony: afaik it is not supported by the canonical support office
 jono QUESTION:  I've heard lots of FUD from Microsoft about patent infringement in Linux.  Should we even care?  How hard is it to list all the patents MS have and check to see if Linux violate any?
[05:37] <jono> Smegzor: this is a big subject, and I am not a lawyer
[05:37] <jono> software patents are bad and bad for free software
[05:38] <jono> but remember a few things:
[05:38] <jono>  * only some countries recognise software patents
[05:39] <jono>  * *if* software patents face a risk it is in upstream applications (such as the kernel, gnome, kde, firefox, openoffice.org etc) - and we have many companies who have invested in these applications and would no doubt defend a patent claim
[05:39] <jono> software patents are always a risk for everyone, both closed and open, which is why the are bad, so support the anti software patent movement :)
[05:40] <jono> personally I don't think we are going to face too many issues from Microsoft, they have a lot to lose
[05:40] <jono> for being "the most interoperable software company in the world"
[05:40] <imbrandon> ( small note: for those of you joining us late, please join #ubuntu-classroom-chat to ask questions , prefix your question with "jono: QUESTION <question here>" , thanks )
 jono QUESTION: And finally I am interested in providing local support for Ubuntu in my country (Czech Republic/Europe), because there isn't any commercial support until now. How can I start in this way?
[05:41] <jono> alum: if you want to provide commercial support, I recommend you join the Ubuntu Marketplace - see www.ubuntu.com for details
 Wait, how can Jono make this the finest community if it already is the finest? :
[05:42] <jono> Rytmis: heh, we can always make fine things finer :)
 QUESTION: I'm a CS Masters degree graduate looking to do some programming on the side for Ubuntu, light work at first, what should I do? how should I start (considering i'm in the US but not near a loco)?
[05:42] <imbrandon> *cough* https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU *cough*
[05:42] <jono> luigi1015: I also recommend you contact the develop mailing list and ask how you can help - working on ubuntu frontend tools and patching packages is useful work too
[05:43] <jono> yeah, speak to our friend and yours imbrandon about MOTU
[05:43] <jono> the MOTU folks are screaming for new help - and they are officially "hella cool"
 QUESTION: Did you write that whole speech thing you just gave us previously, or did you come up with it as you went
[05:43] <jono> dabaR: heh, no thats just me and the way I talk
[05:43] <jono> none of this was prepared
 jono: QUESTION: With MS listed as owner to the internationally hated operating system, what will happen to the first Distribution that steals the market control from the monopoly?  If *buntu becomes as popular as such, what ways can I help curb the kneejerk reactions by the populous?
[05:44] <jono> spr0k3t: we have a long way to go to unseat MS, and it won't happen overnight - the general populous will gradually get used to seeing Linux as a normality
[05:44] <jono> but we all need to contribute and work together to unseat the beast
[05:44] <jono> :)
 QUESTION: with more and more users do you generally find you get more devs to cope with the increasing packages the new users demand?  Or is there just more pressure on the available devs?
[05:46] <jono> davmor2: the community tends to grow in all directions - we get more users and more developers - all of our developers are overworked - no doubt there, but also remember that the strain is not particularly on developers (aside from bugfixing) but also on support - this is why loco teams, #ubuntu and the ubuntuforums also need help from contributors
 QUESTION: In setting up the Maryland group I've had trouble getting resources...maryland.ubuntu-us.org and lists.ubuntu.org addresses in particular. What is being done to resolve things like that for new loco teams?
[05:47] <jono> chuckf: I am working on this at the moment, I will be dealing with loco list requests and also working on ways to speed up domain registration, rest assured, I am onto it
 jono QUESTION: about a year ago, the "answerer to questioner" ratio on the ubuntu forums was much higher than it is today. it seems that nowadays a lot more threads go by without getting resolved. this is of course due to the growth in the number of new ubuntu users. but how would we deal with this and maintain the quality of help on the forums?
[05:48] <jono> therealnanotube: I think we need to encourage more people to join the forums community - answering questions is a great way to contribute to ubuntu - I think it would be good to have a campaign to encourage more forums contributors
 QUESTION: is it necessary for one to be an ubuntu member? what if there are some people in loco who contribute a lot but never sign the CoC and never apply for ubuntu membe
[05:49] <jono> Belutz: nope, membership is particularly useful for developers who need access to certain machines - for locos its less essential
 jono QUESTION: Some members of our team (Loco team in development) see no use in signing the CoC. What would you answer them?
[05:49] <jono> Monika|K: I would encourage everyone to at least understand and read the CoC if they don't sign it - signing it is a formality - the message behind it is the key thing
 jono QUESTION: Where should you start looking when you want to starting helping development with ubuntu besides https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers
[05:50] <jono> Demon012: look to the teams you are interested in contributing, ask in #ubuntu-devel in #ubuntu and ask on the ubuntu forums - if all else fails, mail me :)
 jono QUESTION:  I think a lot of us are really hoping to become Ubuntu members, but the page concerning membership is very vague as to what is needed to be a member.  Could you provide a clarification?
[05:51] <jono> adamant1988: to become a member you just need a track record of doing "good stuff" - if you have worked in the community, have participated in discussions, done real work, you can become a member - I do think the docs for membership do need improving though to help resolve these uncertainties
 jono QUESTION: Which is the preferred programming language for development for Ubuntu?
[05:51] <jono> Demon012: we love Python
 jono QUESTION : When developers cross from another distro to Ubuntu, does this create tensions within the wider Linux community? How can existing developers help out with Ubuntu, without making it appear that they've become "disloyal" to other distros (and without making it appear that Ubuntu is headhunting/'stealing' talent away from other projects)?
[05:52] <jono> airlo: this is the difference between distro level and upsteam work - upstream hackers can work on software that any distro can use, when developers move to a new distro and hack on it, generally there is no tension - its just a choice of project to work on
 jono: QUESTION What work has been/is being done with companies such as IBM, Oracle to encourage them to help improve Ubuntu and also certify their products for use on Ubuntu?
[05:53] <jono> jayteeuk: our business dept is working with those companies, I have no idea - I just do community stuff
 QUESTION: What can you say about the relation of Ubuntu community with other related bodies? For example if I want to translate some gnome application this counts for both Ubuntu and GNOME circles in my country. Or software patents are a proslem of both Ubuntu and gnu.org... and so on. what are the coordination mechanisms and which addresss do you advice to apply in such scenarios: something having to do with both Ubuntu
[05:53] <elkbuntu> and other circl
[05:55] <jono> deniz_ogut: I am hoping to improve relations between ubuntu and other communities - we need to remember we are all on the same team - but some things naturally compete on the same team - this is a big question and one that I am looking to solve in different ways - better communication being the main solution
 QUESTION: do you often dream about killing cats you wanted to herd?
[05:55] <jono> kNo`: hah, no, I love cats, and love herding them :)
 jono Question: whats happening on the CNR front?
[05:55] <jono> jussi01: I am not working on that, but I think its planned for gutsy
 jono: QUESTION Are there any plans to lower the threshold for contributing, ie. writing instructions on how to get started with, say, fixing a bug?
[05:56] <jono> Rytmis: always, things such as bitesize tasks in motu are helping with this, the key thing here is better docs, better websites and regular meetings - I am encouraging all teams to do this
[05:56] <jono> MOTU are doing a good job here
 jono: QUESTION How productive is it to spend time bashing MS rather than simply advancing Ubuntu/Linux/FreeSoftware?
[05:56] <jono> chuckf: not productive at all - FUD is bad, no matter who is comes from
[05:56] <jono> just say no!
 jono: QUESTION How can unapproved teams get resources such as CDs from Shipit?
[05:57] <jono> chuckf: right now only approved teams can get feisty CDs - so the solution is to get approved :)
 QUESTION: Do you have any people working on the GPL java code in Ubuntu? Not just packaging the stuff. I see several things that could be improved. For instance sound playback where the java VM currently hijacks your sound device.
[05:58] <jono> elkjaer: canonical does not pay developers to work on upstream code, so I doubt it - not sure if community work is going on though
 jono QUESTION: What documentation should you produce when developing software for Ubuntu and where should it be posted? (Examples of documentation: Pseudo Code, UML Diagrams)
[05:58] <jono> Demon012: you should fully document the use of your app, well commented code is nice and structural diagrams are nice too - its best to ask a developer this question
 jono QUESTION: Ubuntu has had a remarkable rise over the past couple years. What possibilities do you see in its future for unifying the fragmented world of "competing" Linux distros
[05:59] <jono> pbx: ubuntu will continue to grow and expand and I think we will continue to lead our community forward - I hope distros can unite on upstream levels particularly
[05:59] <jono> its a tough question though, and no simple answer
[05:59] <jono> its a competitive world in which we share too
[05:59] <jono> right
 QUESTION: when will launchpad karma include wiki work, forum posts, etc?
[05:59] <jono> nealmcb: ask mrevell that :)
[05:59] <jono> ok thats abut it
[05:59] <jono> about it
[06:00] <jono> sorry I could not answer all the questions in time
[06:00] <jono> two things to remember:
[06:00] <jono>  * I am running a community Q+A session at 3pm UTC on wednesday - thats a full hour of Q+A - come and ask your questions there
[06:00] <jono>  * also, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TheFunkyFeistyCompetition - lets get some cool photos in the competition :)
[06:00] <jono> thanks everyone!! have a great week!! :)
[06:01] <jono> and now, my friend and yours, the legend, the man, LaserJock :)
[06:02] <LaserJock> jono: thanks much
[06:02] <jono> LaserJock: rock on dude :)
[06:02] <LaserJock> hehe, that's a hard act to follow folks
[06:03] <LaserJock> Hello everyone, my name is Jordan Mantha and I'm a PhD Physical Chemistry student and a voluteer developer in Ubuntu.
[06:03] <LaserJock> Today we are going take a brief journey through packaging, which is about the most important aspect of a Linux distro. Ubuntu's sucess in the long run is largely dependent on the quality, updatedness, and availability of software in it's repositories. To get there requires lots of help from people like you and I in the community who want to give back to the distro that has given us much.
[06:03] <LaserJock> I'd like to start by saying that packaging can be frustrating at times, and a little confusing, but give it some effort and patience and you'll be teaching a couple hundred people Packaging 101 :-)
[06:04] <LaserJock> You don't need to be a programmer or super cool rockstar like Jono. ;-)
[06:05] <LaserJock> In the time that I have I really can't give a good in-depth tutorial on packaging. What I'd like to do instead is give you a overview of packaging for Ubuntu, point you to some further reading, and get you fired up about joining in and contributing to Ubuntu packages. And of course answer a bunch of questions.
[06:06] <LaserJock> ok, well thus ends my prepepared part ;-)
[06:06] <LaserJock> One of the first things to be aware of in Ubuntu packaging is that we deal primarily with source packages
[06:07] <LaserJock> source packages are what gets uploaded to the Ubuntu build machines
[06:07] <LaserJock> a diff to a source package is what somebody uploading a fix for you will want to see
[06:08] <LaserJock> so the question then is "what the heck is a source package and where do I get it?"
[06:08] <LaserJock> well a source package is really made up of 2-3 files
[06:08] <LaserJock> in what's call a non-native package there are 3 files
[06:09] <LaserJock> 1) a .dsc file that is a description of the source package and also has checksums of the other source package files
[06:10] <LaserJock> 2) a .orig.tar.gz file which is the tarball that you get from the upstream authors
[06:10] <LaserJock> we want to keep the .orig.tar.gz as pure as possible
[06:10] <LaserJock> so we have:
[06:10] <LaserJock> 3) .tar.gz file which is a diff to the .orig.tar.gz which holds all the modifications to the source
[06:11] <LaserJock> including the packaging specific files and any patches we may need
[06:11] <LaserJock> Adri2000: ah thanks, I was thinking ahead of myself
[06:12] <LaserJock> 3) is a diff.gz file
[06:12] <LaserJock> a native package is one that is specific to the distro
[06:12] <LaserJock> and doesn't really exist outside of it
[06:12] <LaserJock> in that case preservation of a original tarball isn't needed
[06:13] <LaserJock> so there are just 2 files, the .dsc and a tar.gz file that holds all the source
[06:13] <LaserJock> ok, any questions so far?
[06:13] <LaserJock>  LaserJock: I filed a bug against librsvg2-2 a good while ago. the folks at gnome even say in the place librsvg lives in the ftp archives "DO NOT USE 2.16.0" yet its still not updated to 2.16.1... what gives? do some packages slip thru the update net?
[06:14] <LaserJock> well, things can certainly fall through the cracks at times
[06:14] <LaserJock> we rely (especially in Universe) on Debian quite a bit.
[06:15] <LaserJock> and given there are roughly 50-80 developers for ~15,000+ packages it can be difficult to keep up
[06:15] <LaserJock>  QUESTION: When we create a patch how can we get the result into the current Ubuntu Release's Repositories or is that not possible?
[06:16] <LaserJock> if you mean a stable release (like Edgy of Feisty) then that requires a Stable Release Update (SR)
[06:16] <LaserJock> *SRU
[06:16] <LaserJock>  QUESTION: when in the release cycle is the best time to get a new package in?
[06:16] <LaserJock> after the repos have opened
[06:17] <LaserJock> before the Feature Freeze(Main) or NewPackages Freeze (Universe)
[06:17] <LaserJock> QUESTION: could you give a brief description of what to do to get a package from say, feisty, into the backports repository for dapper?
[06:18] <LaserJock> You'll want to file a bug with the backports team
[06:18] <LaserJock> QUESTION: If I wanted to make a change to a package, I have hear the preferred format is "debdiff".  What is this?
[06:18] <PriceChild> You could also ask for help with filing the bug in the backports forum on ubuntuforums.org where jdong should help :)
[06:18] <LaserJock> a debdiff is a somewhat special diff that shows the difference between source packages
[06:19] <LaserJock> the tool used is niftily called debdiff
[06:19] <LaserJock> QUESTION: If a package I have installed in one version has broken dependencies after an upgrade, I report a bug in Launchpad, then how do I go about getting it fixed or submitting a fix?
[06:20] <LaserJock> You'll want to grab the source package (apt-get source <packagename>) and fix the dependencies in debian/control
[06:20] <LaserJock> submit a debdiff of those changes to the bug report
[06:20] <LaserJock>  QUESTION: if I fix a bug in a package, when should I do a straight debdiff and when should I instead do a proper patch using some patch system?
[06:20] <LaserJock> good questoin
[06:21] <LaserJock> if you feel your patch is complete and won't take any additional work by a dev do it as a debdiff
[06:21] <LaserJock> you'll get credit and experience
[06:22] <LaserJock> if you are just providing a patch to one file and it may need more work or you don't want to go to all the trouble of preparing a new source package and debdiff'ing then just submit a patch
[06:22] <LaserJock> QUESTION: Is there a possibility of getting a package in for a particular Ubuntu Version well after release? Say for two cases. A "new" addition or an update to an already existing package.
[06:22] <LaserJock> once a release is "released" it is frozen
[06:22] <LaserJock> we don't include new packages (unless by rare exception to -updates repos)
[06:23] <LaserJock> updates are done several ways
[06:23] <LaserJock> -updates is a repo for important updates
[06:23] <LaserJock> -security is for security fixes
[06:23] <LaserJock> -backports is for getting newer versions in (from the current development release)
[06:23] <LaserJock> QUESTION : If a package (lower version than upstream) is found to have a serious security vulnerability, do you prefer to upgrade to the new package version, or do you apply hotfixes to the old package?
[06:24] <LaserJock> if it's for a stable release we backport the fix to the existing version
[06:24] <LaserJock> QUESTION: Is there anything in the package files that give a URL to where the package's source was downloaded from? If, for example, I want to know where you get the source for desktop-effects from, is there anything in the .diff.gz or .dsc files that tell me this?
[06:25] <LaserJock> the debian/copyright files should say where the source was downloaded from
[06:25] <LaserJock>  QUESTION: are there any licenses that we should be wary of when thinking of packaging a piece of software?  I am considering packaging software licensed under the mozilla public license.
[06:26] <LaserJock> well, the best advice I can give is to look at the Debian Free Software Guidelines (DFSG) and the debian-legal mailing list
[06:26] <LaserJock> if it's "free" enough for Debian it'll be free enough for Ubuntu
[06:26] <LaserJock> QUESTION: How are end users assured that the packages they're installing in Ubuntu are authentic/untampered from upstream versions (especially if a developer becomes victim to a hacker who changes code inside a package they're making... are there safeguards in place?)
[06:27] <LaserJock> yes, there are safeguards in place
[06:27] <LaserJock> the first is limiting who can upload a package
[06:27] <LaserJock> only people in the ubuntu-dev team on launchpad can upload to Ubuntu
[06:27] <LaserJock> that's roughly 80 people
[06:28] <LaserJock> broken up into MOTUs (Universe/Multiverse devs) and core-devs (Main and Restricted)
[06:28] <AndrewB> Could everybody please note that this channel is +m and thus you can't speak. Please join #ubuntu-classroom-chat for discussion and questions. Thanks
[06:28] <LaserJock> to become either of those you need to have a gpg encryption key that is "signed" by a Debian or Ubuntu developer
[06:28] <LaserJock> or somebody in the "strong set"
[06:29] <LaserJock> in order to sign somebodies key you must physically meet them and check their ID
[06:29] <LaserJock> know, that is all to prove you are who you say you are
[06:29] <LaserJock> to prevent hackers devs keep very careful track of their gpg key
[06:30] <LaserJock> and have revocation certificates that if their gpg was for some reason compromised they can revoke it and render it useless
 QUESTION: How different is packaging for Ubuntu from Debian?
[06:30] <LaserJock> it depends on the package :-)
[06:30] <LaserJock> you can spot a package Ubuntu has messed around with by a "ubuntu" in the version
[06:31] <LaserJock> roughly 4,000 packages in Main and 4,000 packages in Universe
[06:31] <LaserJock> in terms of actual packaging, we really don't differ
[06:31] <LaserJock> we do things like have different python or gcc versions
[06:32] <LaserJock> but as far as actually 'how to package' they are equivalent
[06:32] <LaserJock> QUESTION: Suppose I have a package that's neither in ubuntu or debian repos, would I be best sending it to debian, ubuntu or both?  Do all packages in debian repos go through to ubuntu?
[06:32] <LaserJock> excellent question
[06:32] <LaserJock> It's honestly best to send a package to Debian first
[06:32] <LaserJock> since Ubuntu syncs it's packages from Debian
[06:33] <LaserJock> more people benefit from your work if it gets to Debian
[06:33] <LaserJock> that said, you can certainly develop your package and get feedback from the Ubuntu devs
[06:33] <LaserJock> and then finally submit it to Debian
[06:34] <LaserJock> QUESTION: how time consuming is packaging for newbies?  I'd really like to contribute and even have a package(s) in mind (Kadu from kadu.net), but I'm kinda affraid of taking the responsibility and then failing due to lack of time to do it properly.
[06:34] <LaserJock> well, that's a bit of the joy of Ubuntu
[06:34] <LaserJock> we use a team maintenance model
[06:34] <LaserJock> so you aren't necessarily committing to taking care of the package for all time
[06:35] <LaserJock> on the other hand, we do like people to stick around and help out :-)
[06:35] <LaserJock>  QUESTION:  Can anyone submit updates to packages or do they have to coordinate with a maintainer before submitting anything?  I know nothing yet about the processes involved in contributing.
[06:35] <LaserJock> anyone can contribute
[06:36] <LaserJock> what happens is that if you aren't a developer you'll need an additional step of sponsorship
[06:36] <LaserJock> in both Main and Universe we have sponsorship teams set up
[06:36] <LaserJock> so for instance, in Universe, you can attache a debdiff to a bug report
[06:36] <LaserJock> then subscribe the ubuntu-universe-sponsors team
[06:36] <LaserJock> and they'll look it over and if it's ok they'll upload it for you
[06:37] <LaserJock> QUESTION: A previous update to the X server infamously caused problems for a large number of users. There was talk about improving the package release system to prevent broken packages from being released. Could you please update us on what changes (if any) have been made in light of the past?
[06:37] <LaserJock> lots
[06:37] <LaserJock> we've instituted a -proposed repo
[06:37] <LaserJock> where devs upload their packages for testing before they go to -updates
[06:38] <LaserJock> we also instituted Stable Release Update policies
[06:38] <LaserJock> that govern how an update gets done and tested
[06:38] <LaserJock>  Suppose that i've found a bug into upstream and i've created a patch. I need to submit that to original author as well as ubuntu mantainers? What is the optimal update process?
[06:38] <LaserJock> it kind of depends on how fast the development of the upstream is
[06:38] <LaserJock> it's always awesome to send stuff upstream
[06:39] <LaserJock> so more people can get the fix
[06:39] <LaserJock> but sometimes it takes quite some time to for the fix to trickle back down to us
[06:39] <LaserJock> so you might want to do both if it's something important
[06:39] <LaserJock> usually you can sort of coordinate with the Ubuntu devs through a bug report
[06:39] <LaserJock>  QUESTION: (sorry if this has been covered its 2:30am and im eating yesterdays lunch and half asleep) Say if there is a program we want in the ubuntu repository does it need to go past someone to say yes include it or no we dont need it (say if you make the deb package yourself  not need someone else to do)
[06:40] <LaserJock> in Universe it needs to be approved by 2 MOTUs before it is uploaded
[06:40] <LaserJock> in Main it needs to have already existed in Universe and go through a Main Inclusion Report
[06:41] <LaserJock> QUESTION: how do you read the version numbers eg. 1.01.6~ubuntu4
[06:41] <LaserJock> well, in general it goes like this:
[06:41] <LaserJock> <upstream version>-<debian revision>ubuntu<ubuntu revision>
[06:41] <LaserJock> so in the case of 1.2-3ubuntu4
[06:42] <LaserJock> 1.2 is the software version
[06:42] <LaserJock> 3 is the Debian revision (which is 0 if it isn't in debian)
[06:42] <LaserJock> and 4 is the ubuntu revision
[06:42] <LaserJock> sometimes you'll see things like ~ or +
[06:43] <LaserJock> those are ways of making sure that a version is lower or higher than another version
[06:43] <LaserJock> QUESTION : can megapackages be build , for example the full works for multi media , or webdevelopers , or what ever comes to mind...( megapackage being a set of programs to be installed in one go )
[06:43] <LaserJock> you can use metapackages, which are basically empty packages that just depend on all the other packages that you want
[06:43] <LaserJock> ubuntu-desktop is like that
[06:44] <LaserJock> QUESTION: Thank you for your earlier comments regarding security/assurance of packages being uploaded by developers. Could you please clarify if there are any requirements in place to only allow new updates to the repositories after 2 or more people have verified a compiled package and signed off on it?
[06:44] <LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[06:45] <LaserJock> QUESTION: Where should you check if a package has already been made or is already being made before you start packaging something yourself?
[06:45] <LaserJock> you can do an apt-cache search
[06:45] <LaserJock> or packages.ubuntu.com
[06:45] <LaserJock> we also have a new tag in Launchpad, "needs-packaging"
[06:46] <LaserJock> http://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/ for Debian
[06:46] <LaserJock> QUESTION: I've read that when an upstream source already contains a debian dir, I should ask them to remove it. Why that?
[06:46] <LaserJock> well, 2 reasons
[06:47] <LaserJock> 1) it makes maintenance harder
[06:47] <LaserJock> because it turns it into a native package
[06:47] <LaserJock> and every time you have a change in the packaging (new dep or something) you have to have a new upstream release
[06:48] <LaserJock> 2) many upstreams don't provide packaging that's suitable for Debian/Ubuntu
[06:48] <LaserJock> QUESTION:REVU- tell me more about it. all i know is its for beginner package makers and thats all
[06:49] <LaserJock> it's the MOTUs system for reviewing packages (and getting the 2 votes needed to enter Universe)
[06:49] <LaserJock> it was written by MOTUs
[06:49] <LaserJock> there's a wiki page that has more info: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU
[06:49] <LaserJock>  QUESTION: How do we go about getting sponsored by a member of one of the sponsorship teams? And how generally should we start helping with packaging?
[06:50] <LaserJock> the best way is to hop on #ubuntu-motu
[06:50] <LaserJock> we love to have people willing to learn and willing to help
[06:50] <LaserJock> QUESTION: In preparing packages for Ubuntu, do you ever consult with developers of other distributions (Gentoo, Redhat, etc) and work collaboratively to solve issues? Or are package maintainers fairly independent?
[06:51] <LaserJock> it really depends on the software
[06:51] <LaserJock> I think we generally like to be as collaborative as we can
[06:51] <LaserJock> but it's fairly difficult with non-Debian based systems because our packaging is different
[06:52] <LaserJock> I think the best place to go if it's more than just an Ubuntu/Debian issue is the upstream developers themselves
[06:52] <LaserJock>  QUESTION: "It's honestly best to send a package to Debian first." How long would it usually take for a small, straight-forward package to be accepted?
[06:52] <LaserJock> that can really vary
[06:52] <LaserJock> my first package to Debian was uploaded in 2 days
[06:53] <LaserJock> that was after I already had it go through REVU so it didn't need much additional work
[06:53] <LaserJock> the debian-mentors mailing list and IRC channel is great for that
[06:53] <LaserJock> QUESTION: Are there any server-side statistics (not collected from clients who enable the package reporting feature) for how many times each package is downloaded in a time period?
[06:53] <LaserJock> not that I know of
[06:54] <LaserJock> Canonical probably would know
[06:54] <LaserJock> ok, I'm going to end the vast Q&A there
[06:54] <LaserJock> and want to address packaging real quick :-)
[06:55] <LaserJock> obviously I don't have time to give you a tutorial now
[06:55] <LaserJock> but we have many resources to help you learn
[06:55] <LaserJock> I taught a session like this for the MOTU School: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/PackagingBasics
[06:56] <LaserJock> I also maintain the Ubuntu Packaging Guide: http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html
[06:56] <LaserJock> there are some other good resource on that MOTU School wiki page
[06:57] <LaserJock> basically, grab a source package
[06:57] <LaserJock> make sure you have source repos enabled
[06:57] <LaserJock> and apt-get source <packagename>
[06:57] <LaserJock> then poke around in debian/
[06:58] <LaserJock> the debian/ directory is where all the packaging info is
[06:58] <LaserJock> it contains the dependencies and control information (debian/control)
[06:58] <LaserJock> copyright information (debian/copyright)
[06:58] <LaserJock> changelog (debian/changelog who would have guessed0
[06:59] <LaserJock> and very importantly the "instructions" needed to build the package into a .deb (debian/rules)
[07:00] <LaserJock> harrisony: thanks for all the good questions ;-)
[07:00] <LaserJock> one of my packages is plotdrop
[07:00] <LaserJock> it's fairly easy
[07:01] <LaserJock> well, basically we didn't get anything done that I wanted to :-)
[07:01] <LaserJock> but we had fun anyway
[07:01] <LaserJock> I'd really encourage everyone that's interested in learning more to hop on #ubuntu-motu
[07:01] <LaserJock> and I'll be here again, same time, on Wednesday where I'll give a better tutorial
[07:01] <gnomefreak> LaserJock: good session
[07:02] <LaserJock> thanks for coming, thanks for the questions, I'm done
[07:02] <PriceChild> Thanks LaserJock :)
[07:03] <BjornT> ok, let's get started with the next session then.
[07:03] <BjornT> I'm Bjorn Tillenius, the lead developer for the bug tracking part of Launchpad, and I'll be your host for this session about triaging bugs with Launchpad.
[07:03] <BjornT> For those of you that don't already know, Launchpad (https://launchpad.net) is a web application for managing software projects, i.e. it provides bug tracking, feature tracking, code hosting, and more.
[07:03] <BjornT> A lot more could be said about Launchpad, so you should stay for the next session, where mrevell will give you an excellent introduction to Launchpad.
[07:04] <BjornT> Now, let's talk about getting started with triaging bug.
[07:04] <BjornT> Triaging bugs is a great way of getting involved with a project. It doesn't require that you know how to code, and pretty much anyone can learn how do it.
[07:04] <BjornT> Doing this session actually made me realize that it can be quite hard to know how to get involved with triaging bugs, but don't let that put you off!
[07:04] <BjornT> If you just contact the right people, they will most of the time be happy that you want to help, since that can improve the experience for their bug reporters.
[07:05] <BjornT> As a bug reporter, you want that someone cares about your bug report, so having bug triagers that can reply promptly to new bug reports is a great asset for a project.
[07:05] <BjornT> By triaging bugs you'll also help the developers focus more on bug fixing, and less on talking.
[07:05] <BjornT> There are a few different ways you can triage bugs; some require more knowledge and authority than the others.
[07:05] <BjornT> I'd say the two most common meanings of triaging are:
[07:05] <BjornT>     - making sure that the bug report contains enough information
[07:05] <BjornT>     - prioritize the bug
[07:05] <BjornT> The latter can be quite difficult to do, and it requires that you are trusted by the project, so i'll be concentrating on the first point, which basically means to make the bug report good enough so that more experienced people can prioritize and fix the bug.
[07:06] <BjornT> So, what kind of information should the bug report contain?
[07:06] <BjornT> Basically it should contain enough information so that someone could reproduce the bug, and it should also clearly state what the actual bugs is.
[07:06] <BjornT> i.e., it should contain the answers to the following questions:
[07:06] <BjornT>     - what did you do?
[07:06] <BjornT>     - what happened?
[07:06] <BjornT>     - what did you expect to happen?
[07:07] <BjornT> But this is not the only information that is needed;  each project have their set of requirements and guidelines as to what exactly a bug report should contain.
[07:07] <BjornT> So before starting to triage bugs for a project, you should get in contact with the people that are dealing with bugs within the project.
[07:07] <BjornT> Your best bet is usually to look at who's the designated "Bug Contact"
[07:07] <BjornT> of the project, find them on IRC or drop them an e-mail.
[07:07] <BjornT> Since this is *Ubuntu* Open Week, let's take Ubuntu as an example. Note that most of the things I will talk about here apply to any project using Launchpad, not just Ubuntu.
[07:08] <BjornT> If you look at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu you can see that the 'Ubuntu Bugs' team is the bug contact. If you follow that link to https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugs, you can see that you shouldn't join that team, though!
[07:08] <BjornT> The ubuntu-bugs team is used mostly to get all the bug notifications sent to a mailing list.
[07:08] <BjornT> On the same page you can see that the Ubuntu QA Team is listed as the owner, so if you'd follow that link you'd be pointed to the Ubuntu BugSquad, which is that team that deals with bugs in Ubuntu.
[07:09] <BjornT> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad contains all information you need to join the team and start triaging Ubuntu bugs. Don't be shy, they will appreciate any help you can give them. :) They usually hang out in #ubuntu-bugs here on freenode.
[07:09] <BjornT> But don't go off reading all that information just yet, though, since it would take most of this session. Instead I will talk a bit about triaging bugs here.
[07:10] <BjornT> So, now that we know who we should talk to about triaging bugs, we can talk about picking which bugs to triage.
[07:10] <BjornT> If you look at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu you can see that there's a great deal of Unconfirmed bugs. It's those bugs that you want to turn to either Confirmed or Rejected.
[07:10] <BjornT> Confirmed basically means that the bug report contains enough information for someone to fix the bug, and Rejected means that it's not really a bug, for example, it could be a support request disguised as a bug report.
[07:10] <BjornT> When you triage bugs, you start to have a conversation with the bug reporter. This is important work, since it gives the bug reporter someone to talk to, and it shows him that someone does care about his bug report.
[07:11] <BjornT> Be sure to be polite to the reporter, though :), we don't want him to get a bad impression of the community.
[07:11] <BjornT> In order to avoid more than one people triage the same bug, it's a good idea to assign the bug you want to triage to yourself. This gives you a list of bugs you need to pay extra attention to at https://launchpad.net/people/+me/+assignedbugs.
[07:12] <BjornT> It also makes it easier for triager to find bugs you want to triage, since you can exclude bugs that are assigned to someone.
[07:12] <BjornT> let's stop for some questions here
[07:12] <BjornT> < spr0k3t> BjornT: QUESTION: if a bug is rejected by the person triaging,. does it get less priority or just left for the next person. triaging?
[07:13] <BjornT> If you mark a bug as Rejected, no one will look at the bug again, so only do so if you're sure that it's not a bug.
[07:13] <BjornT> When a bug is rejected, an e-mail notification will be sent, though, so people will see that the bug gets rejected.
[07:13] <BjornT> BjornT: QUESTION many people don't know the literal meaning of. triaging. could you please explain that first ?
[07:14] <BjornT> This question is actually quite hard to answer :)
[07:14] <BjornT> As someone of you already noted, "triage" is an unusual word.
[07:15] <BjornT> It doesn't have a useful meaning in the real world; I'm not sure why we say that you "triage" bugs.
[07:15] <BjornT> But in a bug context, it means to make sure that the bug contains enought information, and that it gets directed to the right people that will fix the bug.
[07:17] <BjornT> The thing is that mostly "triage" means to prioritize, while here it also means to make sure that the bug is a good bug report.
[07:17] <BjornT> < micahcowan> QUESTION: The "bug contact" could just be anyone who. happened to subscribe to bug changes for that particular. bug, right? That is, it's not guaranteed that the Bug. Contact is particularly knowledgeable on that package?
[07:17] <BjornT> There are different kind of bug contacts.
[07:18] <BjornT> For Ubuntu, there's one global bug contact for the whole distribution, and also any number of bug contacts for each source package.
[07:18] <LaserJock> BjornT: dictionary definition:
[07:18] <LaserJock> 1.	the process of sorting victims, as of a battle or disaster, to determine medical priority in order to increase the number of survivors.2.	the determination of priorities for action in an emergency.
[07:19] <LaserJock> for triage, sorry for the interruption
[07:19] <BjornT> Not anyone can become a distribution bug contact, but anyone can become a source package bug contact, which is a great way of getting e-mail notifications for bugs.
[07:19] <BjornT> For other projects in Launchpad, not anyone can become a bug contact.
[07:20] <BjornT> Ok, let's continue with how to find bugs to triage.
[07:20] <BjornT> To find bugs to triage, you can go back to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu and click on the "Advanced search" link, which will allow you to filter the bug listing in a great number of ways.
[07:20] <BjornT> In Ubuntu, bugs are considered untriaged if they are Unconfirmed, have an Undecided importance, and doesn't have an assignee.
[07:20] <BjornT> So you should make sure that no other statuses or importances are checked, as well as making sure that "Nobody" is specified as the assignee.
[07:20] <BjornT> After you've done this and clicked on "Search", you probably want to bookmark that page.
[07:21] <BjornT> When you have the list of bugs, it's a good idea to open each bug you want to triage into a new browser tab. That makes it easier to get back to the bug listing after you're done with the bug.
[07:21] <BjornT> Now, let's talk about how you actually triage a bug report that you've found.
[07:21] <BjornT> First, you should read through the bug report and make sure that you understand what the bug report is about. If it's unclear, ask the reporter to clarify.
[07:22] <BjornT> When you ask the reporter something, you should set the status to "Needs Info", so that the reporter (and you) knows that action is required from him.
[07:22] <BjornT> Sometimes the bug reporter doesn't respond, so if a bug in "Needs Info" hasn't gotten a reply for a while, it's usally a good idea to Reject the bug, since it can't be fixed without knowing more about the problem.
[07:23] <BjornT> Now, it might not be completely obvious how to change a bug's status, so I'll better tell you how to do it :).
[07:23] <BjornT> You change the status of the bug by clicking on the package name (e.g.  "amule (Ubuntu)"), which will expand the edit form, where you can edit things like status, assignee, and package name, and you can also leave a comment while editing.
[07:23] <BjornT> Anyone is allowed to edit the status of a bug, you don't need any special privileges.
[07:23] <BjornT> Now, let's get back to actually triaging the bug.
[07:24] <BjornT> There are a number of different things you can to do. A good first step is to try to reproduce the bug. If you don't know what steps are necessary, you should ask the bug reporter for more information.
[07:24] <BjornT> Now, after he's given all the information, it will be there in the comments. But sometimes there are a great number of comments in a bug, so the needed information can be hard to find there.
[07:25] <BjornT> So, to make it easier to find, Launchpad allows you to edit the bug description, by clicking on the "Edit description/tags" link in the action menu to the left.
[07:25] <BjornT> Moving the important information to the description will make it much easier for the next person looking at the bug to understand the bug.
[07:26] <BjornT> Let's take a few more questions.
[07:26] <BjornT> < harrisony> QUESTION:when you mark a bug as a dupe do you then leave it. or close it or..
[07:26] <BjornT> If you mark a bug as a dupe, you don't have to do anything more about it. It will be considered triaged, and removed from the bug listings.
[07:27] <BjornT> 20:18 < deniz_ogut> QUESTION: There are bug reports which are "assigned" to. someone but stil remains "uncorfirmed" for many months.. Doesn't it mean that a bug will be triaged soon if it is. assigned to someone? Or still is there a need for new. contributers' help?
[07:28] <BjornT> This is a tricky situation. It basically requires someone to look at assigned bugs to make sure that some progress is made.
[07:28] <BjornT> Sometimes a bug can remain Unconfirmed, since the bug is a bit controversial, and requires a great deal of discussion.
[07:29] <BjornT> < Loic> QUESTION: If we assign ourselves a bug we are triaging but can't. fix, hasn't the bug less chances to attract a developer, since. they will see that someone is already taking care of the bug?
[07:29] <BjornT> Oh, sorry, maybe I shouldn't have made that clear. After you've done triaging the bug, and moved the bug to Confirmed, you should unassign yourself, so that a developer can fix it.
[07:31] <BjornT> Ok, let's leave the rest of the question for later, and continue with assigning the bug to the right package.
[07:31] <BjornT> The next thing you should do is to try to decide whether the bug is filed under the correct source package. In Launchpad bugs are associated with source packages, not binary packages, and it can be hard for people to know on which package to file the bug on.
[07:31] <BjornT> If a bug doesn't have a package at all, or an incorrect one, it could lead to the bug not getting looked at by the people that should.
[07:32] <BjornT> Also, each package generally have few different guidelines as to what information a bug should contain, and it narrows down the scope of possible duplicate bugs.
[07:32] <BjornT> You can change/set the source package on the same form as editing the status, which is expanded by clicking on the package name on the bug page. You can find more information about finding the right source package at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage.
[07:33] <BjornT> After you decided that the source package is correct, you can start to search for similar bug reports, to see if the bug has already been reported before.
[07:33] <BjornT> You should start by going to the package's bug listing, which you can reach by expanding the edit form by clicking on the package name, and then click on the package name next to "Affecting:" to the right in the edit form.
[07:33] <BjornT> It's good to open this page in a new browser tab, so that you can easily return to the bug report.
[07:34] <BjornT> On the package bugs page, e.g.  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/amule, you can search for bugs that are reported on the amule package. The search will include all the bug reports that include the search words that you specify.
[07:34] <BjornT> If you found a bug report that is about the same bug as the report you are triaging, you can go back to the latter and indicate that it's a duplicate bug by clicking on "Mark as duplicate" and enter the id of the bug you've found.
[07:35] <BjornT> Now, let's talk about what other information the bug report should contain.
[07:35] <BjornT> If the bug isn't a duplicate, you can continue making sure that the bug report contains enough information so that a developer can debug what's wrong, ideally without having to request more information for the bug reporter.
[07:36] <BjornT> The most common thing is to ask the user what version of the related packages he's using. The reporter might not know how to get at this information, so be prepared to tell him how to do it.
[07:36] <BjornT> Apart from the general version information, each package, or subsystem has their own set of information they want a bug report to contain. For example, bugs involving a USB printer should contain a list of loaded usb modules, as well as some specific log output. The BugSquad can tell you more about this.
[07:37] <BjornT> You can also find a great deal of information at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures.
[07:37] <BjornT> Now, since each part of a project is different, it can makes sense to focus on a specific part. This is especially true for large projects like Ubuntu. For example, in Ubuntu you could choose to focus on printing bugs, desktop bugs, firefox bugs, etc.
[07:37] <BjornT> Focusing on a smaller set of bugs gives you an opportunity to learn more about it, so that you, after a while, can do more advanced triaging, and maybe even fix bugs yourself.
[07:38] <BjornT> There are usually sub-teams that you can join, for example desktop-bugs.
[07:39] <BjornT> Now, I have a few more things to talk about, but let's deal with some questions again.
[07:39] <BjornT> < techKyLa> QUESTION : DO i have to send the bug report to the particular. project or can it be sent to the genera bug repo?
[07:40] <BjornT> This is included in the part that is left, but in short, yes, sometimes you should.
[07:40] <BjornT> Often a bug is really not in the package itself, and not Ubuntu specific, but it's in the software project that is package.
[07:41] <BjornT> In this case you can link the general bug report to the upstream one.
[07:42] <BjornT> That way the Ubuntu bug is usually pending a fix from upstream, so the developers don't have to care about it until it has been fixed by someone.
[07:43] <BjornT> This is something you should wait with doing until you are more comfortable doing triage, and knows more about the packaging, and the packaged software.
[07:43] <BjornT> < spr0k3t> BjornT: QUESTION: How do you know if a bug has been triaged by. another but unconfirmed?  Is there a standing count of. unconfirmed for each bug?
[07:44] <BjornT> No, there's no such count. But if you click on "View Activity Log", you can see all the changes to the status of the bug, so you can count for yourself.
 QUESTION: is it safe to allow anyone to edit the bug status?
[07:45] <BjornT> I'd say yes :)
[07:46] <BjornT> Of course, there are opportunity for someone to abuse the system, and make unauthorized changes to the bug status, but it that happens, we have ways of reverting it.
[07:46] <BjornT> Everything is logged, so we can undo it.
[07:46] <BjornT> It's better to make it easy for people to get started, rather than trying to control people too much.
[07:47] <BjornT> That said, there might be some restriction in the future, where anyone can change the status to some values, while you have to have certain permissions to change it to some other.
[07:48] <BjornT> < rohan> BjornT: QUESTION: what would be the reasonable time frame before. rejecting a "Needs info" bug that has got no response ?
[07:49] <BjornT> This is very project specific. I'd say a few weeks, but ask the BugSquad instead.
[07:49] <BjornT> QUESTION: If you're a bug triager, is it regarded good practice. to set status in a bug you've reported yourself?
[07:50] <BjornT> It's usually good to have someone else look at what you do, it's so easy to make a mistake. If your bug report has all the required information, it'll be quick for another triager to set it to Confirmed.
[07:51] <BjornT> < jussi01> BjornT: question: if you are working on any given bug, is. there a way to say to others that your working on it? ie. so. that you dont have a situation where 2 or 3 people are doing. the same work?
[07:51] <BjornT> Yes, you do this by assigning the bug to yourself.
[07:52] <BjornT> < deniz_ogut> QUESTION: Would you please talk some more on "Anyone is. allowed to edit the status of a bug, you don't need any. special privileges." It seems to be a serious. responsibility and.... I mean I sitill don't have courage. to edit them. What if I mark them with an improper status?
[07:52] <BjornT> I've already covered most of this question, but not the last part.
[07:53] <BjornT> If you're unsure about which status to change the bug to, you can always ask someone.
[07:53] <BjornT> If you do ask the first couple of times, you will soon be comfortable enough to make a decision by yourself.
[07:54] <BjornT> Don't be afraid to ask questions when triaging bugs.
[07:55] <BjornT> < torkiano> QUESTION: if a bug affect a driver what package is afected?  kernel(linux-source-2.6.20) or the source of driver (rt2x00)
[07:55] <BjornT> This is highly Ubuntu specific, so it's better to ask this question in #ubuntu-bugs, they will help you.
[07:56] <BjornT> < ditsch> QUESTION: Is it worthy to tag the bugs and if so, is there a. standard set of tags somewhere to include in the bug reports?
[07:57] <BjornT> In general it is worth tagging bugs, although I think Launchpad needs to be improved before tags get really useful for Ubuntu. We're working on it, though.
[07:58] <BjornT> But there are examples where it is good to ask tags. For example, new crash reports from Apport should be tagged with needs-retrace, so that the automatic re-tracer can pick them up.
[07:58] <BjornT> < micahcowan> QUESTION: Except in cases of backports/SRUs, won't the  package version typically be obvious from what version of  Ubuntu the reporter is running (and thus "what Ubuntu  version" being an equivalent question)
[07:59] <BjornT> No, it won't always be obvious. Sometimes the user hasn't updated his system for a while, and he might run an LTS like dapper.
[07:59] <BjornT> Also, if you leave the bug report for a month, it's not nice having to look up which version was the current one a month ago.
[08:00] <BjornT> ok, that's all i had time for. thanks for listening.
[08:00] <BjornT> Also, to remind you, if you want to start triaging Ubuntu bugs (you really should give it a try), read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage.
[08:01] <mrevell> Okay, thanks BjornT! Looks like it's my turn now :)
[08:01] <mrevell> Welcome to the "Introduction to Launchpad" session! Thanks for attending.
[08:01] <PriceChild> The Ubuntu Open Week fun is now! || See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek for the session times || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules are the rules, please respect them || QUESTION: <insert question here> in #ubuntu-classroom-chat to ask questions.. chatting happens there too || Introduction to Launchpad - Matthew Revell
[08:01] <mrevell> Over the next hour, I'll take you through what makes Launchpad special.
[08:01] <mrevell> I'll also tell you when our other Launchpad-related sessions will be held, so you can find out more about using Launchpad for Ubuntu and other free software projects.
[08:01] <mrevell> If we have time, towards the end of this session, I'll be happy to answer your questions.
[08:02] <mrevell> However, we have an entire session dedicated to Launchpad Q&A at this time tomorrow (2007-04-23 18:00 UTC).
[08:02] <mrevell> Let's start with an overview of what Launchpad is:
[08:02] <mrevell> Launchpad is a web-based application to help people work on free software projects. It has five main tools:
[08:02] <mrevell> * bug tracker
[08:03] <mrevell> * code hosting
[08:03] <mrevell> * translations
[08:03] <mrevell> * blueprint tracker
[08:03] <mrevell> * answer tracker.
[08:03] <mrevell> What makes Launchpad really special, though, is its approach to collaboration.
[08:03] <mrevell> Launchpad was originally built to make it easy to create Ubuntu.
[08:03] <mrevell> Ubuntu is made up of the work of hundreds of different communities.
[08:03] <mrevell> Launchpad makes it easy for those communities to work together when they face shared problems.
[08:04] <mrevell> 
[08:04] <mrevell> Take a look at https://launchpad.net/~matthew.revell
[08:04] <mrevell> 
[08:04] <mrevell> This is my Launchpad profile page. Try not to laugh at the bad photo :)
[08:04] <mrevell> However bad it is, that photo's pretty useful. It appears on pages of my work and makes it easy to see what I've worked on.
[08:04] <mrevell> On my profile page, you can get an idea of what interests me and what work I've done in Launchpad.
[08:04] <mrevell> The "Most active in" section shows you which projects I've worked on recently and what sort of work I did.
[08:05] <mrevell> Unsurprisingly, Launchpad is top of my list!
[08:05] <mrevell> The two icons there show you that I've recently worked on bugs and blueprints related to Launchpad.
[08:05] <mrevell> You can also see how to contact me and which teams I've joined.
[08:05] <mrevell> Launchpad teams make it easy for groups of people to organise themselves. Anyone can create a team.
[08:05] <mrevell> Teams can do just about anything that an individual can. For example: they can join other teams or act as the bug contact for a project.
[08:06] <mrevell> 
[08:06] <mrevell> Before we get down to the individual parts of Launchpad, I'd like to explain some terminology.
[08:06] <mrevell> Communities are groups of people who work on software. They're not necessarily the originators of that software.
[08:06] <mrevell> I'll often refer to communities throughout this session
[08:06] <mrevell> For example: there are many communities who work with code from Firefox. There's the original Firefox team, the Debian packagers, the Ubuntu Firefox/Mozilla team, the Epiphany team and so on.
[08:07] <mrevell> 
[08:07] <mrevell> Okay, let's look at the Launchpad bug tracker. It's probably the Launchpad tool that you know best and you may know it by its old name, Malone.
[08:07] <mrevell> You probably know that free software projects share code all the time. Take the Jokosher audio editor, for example. It relies on code from Gstreamer, Python, Gnome and other projects.
[08:07] <mrevell> Similarly, Linux distributions take the work of free software projects and package them up for people to use. They sometimes make changes to the code and also act as a frontline for when people report bugs.
[08:08] <mrevell> All of this means that bugs in free software aren't always reported to the people who wrote the code in the first place.
[08:08] <mrevell> With Launchpad, you can follow a bug as it affects each individual community. For example, let's look at: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/92345
[08:08] <mrevell> At the top of the page is a table that shows the communities that this bug affects. Each community sets its own status and importance for the bug but can share the same comment history.
[08:09] <mrevell> At a glance, you can see if someone has found a solution to the bug. You can also follow the full conversation that has taken place so far. With bug 92345, you may have noticed that two of the communities affected don't even use Launchpad.
[08:09] <mrevell> That's no problem. Much like your blog feed reader, Launchpad follows bugs in other bug trackers, including BugZilla, Roundup, Debian Bug Tracker and Sourceforge.
[08:09] <mrevell> Okay, so it's really cool that Launchpad makes bug tracking a hundred times more useful for free software projects. But it also gets the basics right too.
[08:10] <mrevell> Here's a short list of some of the cool stuff that Launchpad's bug tracker has going for it:
[08:10] <mrevell> * Easy to use web interface.
[08:10] <mrevell> * Email interface.
[08:10] <mrevell> * Bug tagging - create ad-hoc groups of bugs.
[08:10] <mrevell> * Fully hosted service - no sysadmin work.
[08:10] <mrevell> * Works with other parts of Launchpad, such as code hosting and the blueprint tracker.
[08:10] <mrevell> 
[08:10] <mrevell> Now, onto code hosting
[08:11] <mrevell> Launchpad works with the Bazaar version control system. Bazaar is a distributed version control system.
[08:11] <mrevell> That means everyone has their own code repository (called a branch in Bazaar terms).
[08:11] <mrevell> Unlike with CVS or Subversion, you don't need special permissions to start work on someone else's code.
[08:11] <mrevell> Instead, you create your own branch and work on that. It's then easy to merge your changes back into the original branch.
[08:11] <mrevell> And hosting a branch publicly is really easy. All you need is a standard web server.
[08:12] <mrevell> You can find out more about Bazaar on its own on Wednesday at 20:00 UTC with Martin Pool.
[08:12] <mrevell> Launchpad makes Bazaar even more useful. One of the problems with distributed version control is that it can be hard to find all the branches associated with your project.
[08:12] <mrevell> Launchpad solves that. It has a browsable code catalogue for each project.
[08:12] <mrevell> Anyone can register their branch to show up in your project's branch list. You can see how active each branch is, read the developer's commit messages and create your own branch at any time.
[08:12] <mrevell> Importantly, Launchpad can either directly host the branches or mirror them. This means they're always available for anyone to create their own branch.
[08:13] <mrevell> Take a look at the branches for Ubuntu's Update Manager: https://code.launchpad.net/update-manager
[08:13] <mrevell> You can see the main branch but people have also created their own branches to work on their priorities. Bazaar makes it really easy for development to take different directions, while Launchpad helps make sure it's all accessible from one place.
[08:13] <mrevell> Now, take a look at the Bazaar project's branches: https://code.launchpad.net/bzr
[08:14] <mrevell> Notice the small bug icons? If you create a branch to fix specific bugs, you can link the branch to the relevant bug reports. The bug icons indicate there's a link.
[08:14] <mrevell> With a link between a bug report and the branch that fixes it, everyone can now easily get hold of a bug's solution.
[08:15] <mrevell> On that page you can also see several branches registered to the Bazaar Developers team. These are team branches.
[08:15] <mrevell> They're hosted centrally, on Launchpad, and only members of the Bazaar Developers team can commit to them.
[08:15] <mrevell> Team branches are ideal for working together on a major line of development. Anyone can still create their branch, though.
[08:15] <mrevell> Finally, Launchpad can make a continuous import of almost any CVS or Subversion repository hosted on the internet.
[08:15] <mrevell>  This means that you can create your own Bazaar branch of the code and your own line of development.
[08:16] <mrevell> With Bazaar's bzr-svn plugin, and the appropriate commit access, you can even commit your code back to Subversion repositories.
[08:16] <mrevell> You can find out more about hosting code with Launchpad here tomorrow at 20:00 with Jono Lange.
[08:16] <mrevell> 
[08:16] <mrevell> Okay, onto translations!
[08:16] <mrevell> Launchpad Translations, formerly known as Rosetta, takes the pain out of translating software into different languages.
[08:16] <mrevell> Much of the free software world uses GNU's GetText. Developers put markers in their code to show where a GetText should insert a string of interface text.
[08:17] <mrevell> GetText uses a certain file format to store translated strings. Although it's simple enough, the truth is that translators shouldn't have to be coders.
[08:17] <mrevell> Launchpad shields translators from the underlying complexities and gives them a simple web interface.
[08:17] <mrevell> Launchpad currently works with 237 languages and has more than 760,000 strings in its database. Naturally, the same phrases occur in the interfaces of many applications.
[08:18] <mrevell> When someone is translating an application, Launchpad checks its database to see if it has already seen those strings in that language. If it has, it suggests them to the translator.
[08:19] <mrevell> Launchpad also gives teams three different ways to ensure they get the right balance between control of translations and encouraging community participation.
[08:19] <mrevell> From fully open - where anyone can translate - to restricted, where only pre-appointed translators can make translations.
[08:19] <mrevell> Of course, development work usually starts on a new release while the stable release is still in use. Launchpad allows multiple translation efforts to take place concurrently for the same project.
[08:20] <mrevell> So, translation can begin on a new release and continue on the stable release.
[08:20] <mrevell> You can find out more about Launchpad Translations in Carlos and Danilo's session at 18:00 UTC on Thursday.
[08:20] <mrevell> 
[08:20] <mrevell> Launchpad's Blueprint Tracker is unique. It helps you track chunks of work associated with your project. Many of you will have come across blueprints when working on Ubuntu.
[08:21] <mrevell> A blueprint can be anything from a single sentence to a full specification, with information about who is involved and where it fits into your project's roadmap.
[08:21] <mrevell> Anyone can create a blueprint for a project. This is a great way for everyone to get involved in shaping the future of a project. However, the project's leaders get to choose the priority of each blueprint.
[08:22] <mrevell> Take a look at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[08:22] <mrevell> Here you can see all the blueprints associated with Ubuntu. Not only can you see the priority of each blueprint but also:
[08:22] <mrevell> * Definition status - how well thought out and presented is the idea? Is it a full spec or just a one line scribble?
[08:22] <mrevell> * Progress - has work begun on it? Is a beta available? Is it delayed?
[08:23] <mrevell> * Assignee - who's responsible for making sure the blueprint is implemented?
[08:23] <mrevell> * Release - which release is this blueprint targeted to?
[08:23] <mrevell> With the Blueprint Tracker, you can also organise meetings, such as Ubuntu Developer Summits. Anyone can contribute to the meeting's agenda by suggesting which blueprints to discuss.
[08:24] <mrevell> You can see the agenda for UDS Mountain View at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-mtv
[08:24] <mrevell> And like bugs, you can link blueprints to the code branches that implement them.
[08:24] <mrevell> You can find out more about the Blueprint Tracker in kiko's session at 18:00 UTC on Friday.
[08:25] <mrevell> Now onto the Answer Tracker!
[08:25] <mrevell> 
[08:25] <mrevell> Mailing lists and web forums are traditionally where free software projects answer user support questions. However, it can be difficult to capture that knowledge and make it easily available to the community.
[08:25] <mrevell> Some people are also intimidated by mailing lists or the initiation rituals of some forums :)
[08:25] <mrevell> Launchpad's Answer Tracker is a simple way for people to ask questions about a project.
[08:26] <mrevell> Anyone can offer an answer and they original questioner can highlight the answer they found most useful.
[08:26] <mrevell> Members of a project's community can sign up to be support contacts, meaning they receive an email each time a new question is asked about that project.
[08:26] <mrevell> The Answer Tracker is the first part of Launchpad to be localised.
[08:26] <mrevell> People can ask questions in their own language(s). Support contacts can choose to receive notification of questions asked in their preferred languages.
[08:27] <mrevell> Importantly, all of the questions and answers are easily searchable, meaning that they build into a knowledge-base for the project.
[08:27] <mrevell> You can find out more about Launchpad's Answer Tracker in Francis and Alan's session at 19:00 UTC on Wednesday.
[08:28] <mrevell> So, what is the future for Launchpad?
[08:29] <mrevell> We're working to add new features to Launchpad and you can get a first taste by joining the Launchpad Beta Testers team..
[08:29] <mrevell> You can sign up at:
[08:29] <mrevell> https://launchpad.net/~launchpad-beta-testers
[08:30] <mrevell> As I said earlier, Launchpad was created to make it easy for the Ubuntu community to create the best operating system in the world :)
[08:30] <mrevell> However, we think Launchpad is ready for other communities and projects to start using it in earnest.
[08:31] <mrevell> Recently, Zope and SilvaCMS started using Launchpad's Bug Tracker. We've also seen many other projects, including PledgeBank, WengoPhone and Creative Commons start to use Translations.
[08:31] <mrevell> Thank you so much for your interest in Launchpad.
[08:32] <mrevell> I hope that I've given you a taster of what Launchpad is all about.
[08:32] <mrevell> You can find out more about each individual tool, and ask detailed technical questions, in the other Launchpad sessions
[08:33] <mrevell> We'd love to hear what you think about Launchpad and to hear your questions. Join us in #launchpad, or on the launchpad-users mailing list:
[08:33] <mrevell> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/launchpad-users
[08:33] <mrevell> We also have user meetings in #launchpad. We'll have the next one on 2nd May at 16:00 UTC. Add your questions to the agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadUserMeeting/2007-05-02
[08:33] <mrevell> Please join kiko for the Launchpad Q&A session tomorrow at 18:00 UTC.
[08:33] <mrevell> I'll now read your questions in the other channel and answer as many as I'm able :)
 COMMENT: Launchpad pwns all!
[08:34] <mrevell> Thank you for your comment :-D
[08:34] <mrevell>  QUESTION : how many people use launchpad at this very moment? And is it all Ubuntu or more?

[08:35] <mrevell> You can find cool stats about Launchpad just by browsing around it.
[08:35] <mrevell> For example:
[08:35] <mrevell> https://launchpad.net/people
[08:35] <mrevell> Open the stats portlet in the left-hand menu and you'll see
[08:36] <mrevell> that 966086 people have registered in Launchpad so far.
[08:36] <mrevell> You can also see there are nearly a thousand projects registered in Launchpad.
[08:36] <mrevell> Some of those projects may not have been registered officially, but instead by someone who wants to import code into Bazaar from a Subversion repository, for example.
[08:37] <mrevell> unimatrix9: I hope that answers your question.
 QUESTION: What other improvements are planned for launchpad in the future?
[08:38] <mrevell> neuro_: All the improvements and new features for Launchpad will have the aim of making it easier for people to work together on free software projects. Rather than go into details right now, I'll instead invite you to keep an eye on the Launchpad Beta Testers team, where you can try out new features as we take them into private beta.
 QUESTION:with malone how it can get bug info from other trackers, is anything similar to that planned for rosetta?
[08:40] <mrevell> harrisony: BjornT would be the best person to go into the technical detail of how the bug tracker watches external trackers.
[08:40] <mrevell> harrisony: I'm not aware of any web-based services that have the same scope as Launchpad Translations.
[08:41] <mrevell> harrisony: However, we do import upstream translations already. I'm sure carlos and danilo, the Translations guys, would love to hear your feature requests, though. Or email me and I'll ensure they get to the right people.
 QUESTION: if we translate some apps on rosetta, for example GIMP, will our translation sent / to be used by the GIMP translation, or it will be redundant translation, the main GIMP and the launchpad/Ubuntu one
[08:42] <mrevell> Niwatori: If you translate the GIMP packages in Ubuntu, then your translations will be used in Ubuntu, so they won't be redundant.
[08:43] <mrevell> Niwatori: We don#t actively push translations upstream to The GIMP, though. The translations are totally
[08:43] <mrevell> s/actively/automatically
[08:43] <mrevell> The translations are totally available to upstreams to use, though, of course. They're available as standard GetText files.
[08:44] <mrevell> Niwatori: If you'd like to make suggestions, we'd love to hear them though. Please mail me or join us in #launchpad or any of the other ways of contacting us that I mentioned earlier.
 QUESTION: for translation, which one do you recommend to be translated first? and in the packages list there are also some lib packages, is it have to be translated too?
[08:44] <mrevell> Belutz: The first thing to do is to approach the project/community you hope to translate for. For example, Ubuntu LoCo teams often look after the translations for their locality's language(s)
[08:45] <mrevell> Belutz: So, ask them what they see as a priority for translation.
[08:45] <mrevell> Belutz: You can, though, easily see which packages are most in need of translation by looking at the bar chart for each package in a language.
[08:46] <mrevell> Belutz: as for libs, I believe that only user-interface text is made available. However, you can check that with carlos or danilo.
 QUESTION : is launchpad being monitored so it will not collapse under to many items? ( is there an limit set ? )
[08:47] <mrevell> unimatrix9: Yes! Launchpad has a dedicated team of developers and sysadmins, as well as many many servers in a world-class data centre. Launchpad is very much extensible.
 QUESTION: Is there a thought about merging/collaborating the answer tracker with the mailing lists and/or the forum to get a wider knowledgebase?
[08:48] <mrevell> ditsch: That's an interesting suggestion and I think you should join the beta team to be amongst the first to see new features in that area.
[08:48] <mrevell> #ubuntu-classroom-chat
 QUESTION: What's the license type of Launchpad. If its not GPL or Free in general; why?
[08:50] <mrevell> deniz_ogut: I was waiting for that one :) Briefly, Launchpad's code is not distributed, nor are any binaries. Launchpad is currently only available as a web service, much as Google Mail is. However, we have contributed back to free software projects and we do have plans for releasing more of Launchpad as free software.
[08:50] <mrevell> deniz_ogut: As for why it isn't released as free software at the moment:
[08:51] <mrevell> deniz_ogut: we believe that we can make Launchpad work best for the community, and specifically for Ubuntu, by managing it as one web service for the moment. However, Mark S has stated - several times - that we plan to open Launchpad in the future.
 mrevell: QUESTION: How does Canonical plan to make money from Launchpad? Is it already making revenue for you?
[08:52] <mrevell> mc44: That's an interesting question, thanks.
[08:53] <mrevell> mc44: Canonical's plan for Launchpad is that it should provide a really great infrastructure for managing the Ubuntu family.
[08:54] <mrevell> mc44: In providing Launchpad to free software projects, we hope that we can bring those benefits to the wider community too.
[08:54] <mrevell> mc44: So, our aim for Launchpad is to provide great infrastructure. That's the only plan I know about.
[08:55] <mrevell> Okay, so, I'm coming to the end of my session! I think I've covered everyone's questions. We have a couple of minutes though if you want to shove another one in!
[08:55] <mrevell> Don't forget Kiko's dedicated Launchpad Q&A session tomorrow
 QUESTION: is there a test launchpad server because i wana see what launchpad can do but dont want to create a project called test and spam launchpad
[08:56] <mrevell> harrisony: Good question.
[08:56] <mrevell> harrisony: Yes, we do have test servers.
[08:57] <mrevell> harrisony: Or, I should say, a test environment. Forgive me, following the public beta release I'm not sure of its current status. If you could mail me or join kiko's session tomorrow, I'll get you a good answer :)
[08:57] <mrevell> Okay, thanks again everyone.
[08:58] <mrevell> amarillion: Not only do you have a great nick but that's a great question. poningru, great question too. Can I suggest you join kiko's session tomorrow?
[08:58] <mrevell> As we've run out of time for this evening.
[08:58] <mrevell> Thank you everyone
[08:58] <mrevell> matthew.revell@canonical.com
[08:58] <mrevell> email me any time
[08:58] <mrevell> I'd love to hear from you.
[08:58] <dinda> Thanks mrevell!  I'm Dinda, we'll start the next session in just a minute
[08:59] <dinda> I've got about one minute until our official start, so we'll let everyone enter/exit as needed.
[09:00] <PriceChild> For all the new arrivals. Please join #ubuntu-classroom-chat if you want to ask your questions/chat.
[09:00] <dinda> Howdy and welcome to the Ubuntu Open Week Session on The Ubuntu-Women Project!
[09:00] <dinda> My name is Belinda Lopez, aka Dinda.  Im currently living in Galveston, Texas and working as a consultant for all things in the training/learning field.
[09:00] <dinda> Heres the way ubuntu open week is working each session leader will give their session in this channel, and general discussion and questions happens in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[09:01] <dinda> Please keep all chatter and questions to that channel - this channel should only be for the speaker to speak in.
[09:01] <dinda> Asking a question is simple - in #ubuntu-classroom-chat just prefix your question with the nick of the speaker and the word QUESTION.   The speaker will then cut out the question and paste in here and answer it
[09:01] <dinda> In this particular session I am going to speak for a short while and then have a Q+A session where I can answer your questions.
[09:02] <dinda> So, just to repeat,
[09:02] <dinda> My name is Belinda Lopez, aka Dinda.  Im currently living in Galveston, Texas and working as a consultant for all things in the training/learning field.
[09:02] <dinda> I started following the Ubuntu project about 18 months ago and got sucked into the whole wonderful world of all things open source shortly there after.  Along the way to enlightenment I discovered this great group of folks in The Ubuntu-Women Project.
[09:03] <dinda> I  checked out the website at http://www.ubuntu-women.org/
[09:03] <dinda> then joined the mailing list and finally started spending some time in the irc channel.
[09:04] <dinda> The group was initially started by Vid Ayer and others.  I Understand that Sabdfl and Canonical helped register the domain and get resources in place.
[09:04] <dinda> For a while we were a group of helpers with no leaders.  Several folks stepped up to get the group moving and now we have several projects that we are working on.
[09:05] <dinda> I helped kick start regular irc meetings and with help from the Community Council we were able to get more Admins for our website and other leadership issues worked out.
[09:05] <dinda> We also have several more irc ops in our channel as it seems to be a prime target for trolls!  ack!
[09:06] <dinda> So the biggest question we get is "Why is there an Ubuntu-Women Project?"
[09:06] <dinda> or "Why do we need the Ubuntu-Women Project?"
[09:06] <dinda> Many feel as though its an attempt at integration by separation rather just everyone jumping into the larger Ubuntu pool.  From my own experience I can tell you I never intended to even join such a group, much less become something of a leader!
[09:07] <dinda> Many of our members came from other areas first and then we realized this is an area that still needs work to simply help level the playing field in Ubuntu and within many other F/LOSS projects.
[09:07] <dinda> myself included - I came first to learn about education and open source projects
[09:08] <dinda> Many of us came from other distros/upstream projects/linuxchix/etc and were drawn to the Ubuntu community because of the Code of Conduct, COC.
[09:08] <dinda> The language and feeling of inclusion voiced in the COC and Ubuntu community was/is a great starting place; especially for newbies and other minorities to Linux and open source projects.
[09:08] <dinda> But, unfortunately, even within Ubuntu, several female members have reported problems on mailing lists, within their loco teams and especially on IRC. . .
[09:09] <dinda> So there is still MUCH work to be done.
[09:09] <dinda> One response I gave to someone in the forums when asked Why is there an Ubuntu Womens Project? was that. . .
[09:10] <dinda> . . . when we start seeing the "I just got my tech skills insulted because of my gender" or "because I'm a man they just assumed I knew nothing technical about Linux/SysAdmin/prgramming/etc." post by men then we won't need women's groups."
[09:11] <dinda> There are many technically capable women in the group and within F/LOSS, so it can be very frustrating when someone challenges your tech skills simply because "youre a girl"
[09:11] <dinda> And when we started sharing our experiences in IT, F/LOSS and even Ubuntu we realized that it is still happening.  :(
[09:12] <dinda> Even if you personally have experienced it or seen it happen, it can be very frustrating to see others go through bad experiences.  So the UW Project is also here to help in that area.
[09:13] <dinda> I, myself, came from an extremely technical world, Spacefligt Training at NASA, and yet am a newbie in Linux and Open Source, and often found it somewhat intimidating to ask questions or frustrating trying to find answers in the various channels, lists and online resources.
[09:13] <dinda> I joined the UW project because I found a welcoming group of folks who were open to questions and people with similar experiences as mine.
[09:14] <dinda> Some of the projects the group has taken on are mentoring, HCI contributions, forums integration, advocacy and conference appearances/presentations.
[09:14] <dinda> Just to plug Ubuntu Live  The talk I proposed with the help of the whole Ubuntu Womens Project, titled, Why we need the Ubuntu-Women Project? was accepted and will be part of Ubuntu Live in July.
[09:15] <dinda> and with that I'll open it up for questions
 dinda QUESTION: will there be a transcript or video of your Ubuntu Live talk, by any chance?
[09:16] <dinda> I'll definitely put up my presentation on the web somewhere with my speaker notes. . .
[09:16] <dinda> but I'm not sure what the conference is doing in terms of video or any live streaming
 dinda: QUESTION: What is the best approach to getting wife to use Linux? Even after having the various applications she likes migrated under wine?
[09:17] <dinda> Hmm, interesting question . .  but I think the migration path is different for everyone. . .
[09:18] <dinda> I still use and XP laptop given to me by my current job and also my main machine is a Mac laptop
[09:18] <dinda> many long time users don't realize there is a learning curve, even if it is slight for new users
[09:19] <dinda> that is one area I'm working to help overcome, actually with end user training
[09:19] <dinda> it has to be comfortable for her or any user to use
 <QUESTION> What would you say are the biggest reasons why there are relatively few women in software development, especially OpenSource?
[09:20] <dinda> Ah, the $64k question!
[09:20] <dinda> Part of it might be because it is relatively new
[09:21] <dinda> some likened it to Law or Medicine 20 or so years ago
[09:21] <dinda> but once women became interested, and the field became level, more women entered, in droves
[09:22] <dinda> right now, it's mostly marketing, just gettig the word out about FOSS in general is the next step
 QUESTION : whats the most attracting thing for woman about ubuntu?
[09:22] <dinda> a year ago no one knew what I meant when I mentioned Ubuntu or open source, now many more, especially in education know the terms
[09:23] <dinda> The Code of Conduct!
[09:23] <dinda> I've heard from so many that the Ubuntu Community just rocks.
[09:23] <dinda> I happen to believe that too.  :)
[09:24] <dinda> It is a welcoming community for everyone and I think folks can find their niche within the community
 dinda QUESTION: Do you think that the IT sector in general has more problems with sexism than other fields of employment, if so are there any glaring causes?
[09:24] <dinda> That is how I found the Ubuntu-women project
[09:25] <dinda> Coming for an entirely technical world of engineers at NASA and now IT, not sure if it is just IT in general or just Linux. . .
[09:25] <dinda> or just open source?
[09:25] <dinda> I'd be curious to throw that question to our mailing list and forums
 dinda QUESTION: would you please give some info on the distribution of the team members by countries, regions, continents?
[09:26] <dinda> It's failry spread out over the world. . .
[09:27] <dinda> Vid, the founder is from India
[09:27] <dinda> many from the US and Australia, linuxxhix
[09:27] <dinda> more from europe and the phillipines
[09:27] <dinda> one thing we don't have is a current headcount other than the lanuchpad team
[09:28] <dinda> you can check the Launchpad Team info and look at member profiles
 QUESTION: Do you see a lot of success stories, i.e. people switching from windows to linux because of projects like ubuntu-women?
 dinda: COMMENT: I don't know if you have seen the numbers, but IT world in general is less than 20%, Open Source runs about 2%
[09:29] <dinda> Burgwork - most FLOSS polls have it even lower, some as low as 2%
[09:29] <dinda> I'm not sure about switchers but the U-W project certainly helps keep those interested here
[09:30] <dinda> We were surprised recently by the number of members reporting various types of sexism within the Ubuntu Community. . .
[09:31] <dinda> so we started a dialog among members and Jono Bacon is now meeting with the project on ways to help combat that in Ubuntu
[09:32] <dinda> Lots of Ubuntu Women members came from upstream groups such as LinuxChix, Debian women
[09:32] <dinda> It's somewhat frustrating to see the same patterns repeat over and again with the various groups
 QUESTION: Do you think there are other groups that could benefit from extra support?
[09:34] <dinda> Not sure what you mean by other groups?  other audiences?  or specific projects?
[09:34] <dinda> One of the things I found when I came into the project is just being overwhlemed by all the groups seeking help
[09:35] <dinda> There was/is tons of information but no step 1, step 2, step 3 path into the volunteer areas
 dinda: QUESTION: is there any obvious thing that Ubuntu developers (like the MOTU) can do to encourage more women to contribute besides just being decent and nice? or are they doing ok as it is, in your opinion?
[09:37] <dinda> The MOTU, CC, Jono, the core developers, imho, are all doing a great job. . .
[09:38] <dinda> it's harder to elaborate on ways to encourage women, without it coming down to "use common sense" but. . .
[09:38] <dinda> obivously things like "don't ask for pictures" and don't troll the u-w irc channel are some
[09:39] <dinda> When I went to UDS PAris there were about three women in attendance
[09:39] <dinda> UDS Mountain view had a few more
[09:39] <dinda> think about if the roles were reversed and a guy walked into a room of 50 - 70 women developers
[09:40] <dinda> people want to see others like themselves, they just feel more comfortable
[09:40] <dinda> same thing with culture and language
[09:41] <dinda> so there are no easy answers to encouraging women other than just helping to create a professional environment
 dinda: QUESTION: I'm the only guy in the group of developers I work with, I can understand how intimidating being the odd one out can be sometimes.  Now as an estimate would you say there are more women involved than people realize?  I've heard as little as 5% of the active community, but I believe it to be a much larger number.
[09:41] <dinda> I thnk the numbers are larger. . .
[09:42] <dinda> there is just the matter of having time to contribute
[09:42] <dinda> we have tons of programmers, sys admins, bug workers in the group but all seem really tight for time
[09:43] <dinda> but I think now that the group is growing and folks are getting used to having women contribute in technical areas, more will be encouraged to participate
[09:43] <dinda> Plus now that women are leading in some areas, that helps too  :)
[09:44] <dinda> For example I helped kick start the Ubuntu Houston Loco Team
[09:44] <dinda> Last week I stood up in front of 25 guys (and two of their girlfriends) to lead the meeting
[09:44] <dinda> It was great
[09:45] <dinda> Elkbuntum Hobbsee, Pleai2, others are all leading by example
[09:45] <PriceChild> hehe "elkbuntum" :)
[09:45] <dinda> doh!
[09:46] <dinda> The wonderful Elkbuntu from the magical land of Oz
[09:46] <dinda> I wish I could make the next UDS to see what the turnout will be
[09:46] <dinda> PriceChild - other questions
 dinda QUESTION: Most technical careers have few female students. In my University approximately 5%-10% of the students are woman. Do you think the percentage is what it is because women are not generally interested in tech or because discrimination scares them away?
[09:47] <dinda> I can only speak from my personal experience. . .
[09:47] <dinda> which is I used to be a programmer and now I'm not
[09:48] <dinda> way back in highschool and even early college I started on the programmer path but somewhere along the way it stopped being fun
[09:48] <dinda> I think the environment is definitely opeing up for women but it can be frustrating to encounter a "good old boys" club in any field
[09:49] <dinda> and I don't buy the whole women don't like technical stuff gender argument either
[09:49] <dinda> that's totally not true. . .we just like things that work - like Ubuntu
 dinda QUESTION: Is there a need/way of contribution to your efforts from male members of the community? Not in general sense as "be good persons"; is there something you ask in concrete terms?
[09:50] <dinda> First guideline, "Don't be condescending!"
[09:50] <dinda> When we need/want help we will ask for it
[09:51] <dinda> The other thing we discovered at our meeting with Jono. . .
[09:52] <dinda> is that we really need other men to step up and say when they see other members being sexist or making sexist comments/jokes
[09:52] <dinda> We need Men to be an example for other men and boys
[09:52] <dinda> So it's not enough to not do it yourself, be aware that it is happening and be prepared to speak up when you see it
[09:54] <dinda> priceChild - can you paste in that ? from LaserJock?
 QUESTION: I find it a bit more difficult with women on IRC because I don't want to let other's necessarily know (her/she in speech) but then I feel like I'm isolating them. Pictures are another thing. I like pictures/hackergotchis to give a personal touch. Is it best to just ask?
[09:54] <dinda> That's a balancing act, LaserJock
[09:54] <dinda> On the one hand we want to be more visible on the other, it often makes us targets :(
[09:55] <dinda> I became an Ubuntu member a few months ago but have been hesitant to add my blog to planet
[09:55] <dinda> I think it's okay to ask, if you need clarification
[09:56] <dinda> and let them know it's for that reason not b/c you are trolling
[09:56] <dinda> time for one or two more questions
[09:56] <dinda> you folks have been great, btw
[09:57] <dinda> wish I could keep up with the chat going on
[09:57] <dinda> You can find more info on the Ubuntu Women Project at www.ubuntu-women.org
 dinda QUESTION: So does Ubuntu Women concentrate on stuff like promoting Ubuntu, or more on technical stuff, like helping women become MOTUs or start developing software?
[09:58] <dinda> all of the above!
[09:58] <dinda> members tend to use it as a stepping stone into other areas of Ubuntu
[09:58] <dinda> We are especially intersted in getting more mentoring going
[09:59] <dinda> Okay, I have to wrap it up now
[09:59] <dinda> Thanks to everyone, you've been great!
[09:59] <PriceChild> Thanks very much dinda :)
[09:59] <gnomefreak> dinda: thank you it was a wonderful session
[09:59] <dinda> You also gave me alot of good questions to add to my Ubuntu Live presentation
[10:01] <BenC> Hello, and welcome to the Ubuntu Open Week session for the Kernel Team. I'm Ben Collins, the Ubuntu Kernel Team Technical Lead. In this session, I'll start with some background on the Kernel Team, and then open up for some Q+A.
[10:01] <BenC> I work directly for Canonical as a member of the Ubuntu Distro Team, and have been maintaining the Ubuntu Linux Kernel for a little more than 1.5 years now.
[10:02] <BenC> When I first started, the Ubuntu Kernel Team consisted of myself, having taken it over from Fabio M. Di Nitto (fabbione).
[10:02] <BenC> Since then, we have grown to a total of 4 paid kernel developers: Myself, Kyle McMartin (kylem), Tim Gardner (rtg) and Phillip Lougher (pkl).
[10:03] <BenC> Our daily routine is very mundane. We peruse the launchpad bugs for the kernel, working to confirm and evaluate the bug reports. On good days, we try to fix these bugs, and in between we do a little development on the kernel :)
[10:03] <BenC> Most of us have outside projects we work on. Kyle handles parisc patches, and Phillip is the SquashFS maintainer. I used to maintain the Linux IEEE-1394 stack, but that has since been passed on to someone else for lack of time on my part. For many years I've done trivial work on the UltraSPARC kernel port.
[10:04] <BenC> Since the team in its current state is very new, we haven't seen a lot of what we can do. We do plan to open up our roadmap a lot for the gutsy development cycle, and produce some new and exciting things. I'm looking forward to seeing what the great group of developers can do.
[10:05] <BenC> Some things are already coming open, like the newly developed gutsy kernel build system, which should allow for the community to better interact with us, and allow us to provide a better quality kernel for release.
[10:05] <BenC> And now I would like to open the Q+A portion of this session...
[10:06] <PriceChild> For all the new joiners please go to #ubuntu-classroom-chat to ask your questions.
[10:07] <BenC> right, thanks PriceChild
 QUESTION: what is the gutsy kernel build system?
[10:07] <BenC> The build system in question is the bulk of the debian/* directory in our source tree
[10:08] <BenC> Before gutsy, we had been using kernel-package (make-kpkg) to create the kernel deb's and handle the majority of the build process
[10:08] <BenC> this has proven to be very clunky, and hasn't adapted well for us
[10:09] <BenC> So for gutsy, we developed a new build system that can be see in the debian/* directory of the ubuntu-gutsy.git repo (kernel.org)
[10:09] <BenC> It allows us to better customize the build, and allows for easier add-ons by external builds (people who want to make custom kernels available)
[10:10] <BenC> plus it cuts down the build time A LOT
[10:10] <BenC> next Q?
 QUESTION: How should an eager user learn about kernel development?
[10:11] <BenC> I knew this question would come up, but I failed to prepare for it :)    However, the best way to learn about kernel development is dive in. Most people find something that plucks they're nerves and get into the source and try to fix it.
[10:11] <BenC> This can be anything, even as trivial as msg printed in kern.log
[10:12] <BenC> just getting familiar with the source tree layout is a tremendous way to start working with the kernel
 QUESTION: why does the package name include the upstream version?  Does this mean you loose bugs when there's a new upstream version?
[10:13] <BenC> The package name has always included the version. Back when we had bugzilla, there was a linux meta target for all kernel bugs.
[10:13] <BenC> When the big lp move occurred, it was not possible to do this.
[10:13] <BenC> lp == launchpad
 QUESTION:  Realtime patches?  I see some places where realtime could be useful.  Do you see Ubuntu ever releasing a default kernel with the Realtime enabled?
[10:14] <BenC> However, I kept the staus quo because the kernel bug list can easily get full of stale bugs, and starting with a clean slate every release is very helpful
[10:14] <BenC> Well, yes, I can see that happening when those patches are in upstream kernel. See the KernelTeam wiki, specifically the FAQ about why the -rt patches are not in our kernel.
 QUESTION: how many volunteers are helping with the development of the kernel?
[10:15] <BenC> We have about 3 very active volunteers
[10:15] <BenC> Would be nice for that to grow
 QUESTION : what are the most urgent topics that needs to be adressed by your team, that might need help at the moment?
[10:18] <BenC> Our biggest issue is hw testing. We obviously can't have every bit of hw, and even if people file a bug on a driver/hw combo that doesn't work, it's very hard for us to remotely fix it on someone elses system. We definitely need more capable people testing hw
[10:18] <BenC> Two biggest areas where we need testing, storage (IDE/SATA) and wireless
[10:18] <BenC> we always seem to hit problems with them on every release, and we are chasing our tails to fix the problems
 QUESTION: there are many regressions from edgy kernel to feisty kernel, related to sound issues. is this related to kernel team ? if so, will the new build system help in anyway to test these type of regressions ?
[10:20] <BenC> Part 1) Yes, it is kernel related
[10:20] <BenC> Part 2) No, the build system does not do run time testing
[10:20] <BenC> See answer to prior question on testing
 QUESTION: Can you recommend any reading material on developing the Linux Kernel and Linux Drivers?
[10:22] <BenC> There is a Linux Device Drivers book from Oreilly, which is what I read when I first started with the kernel
[10:22] <BenC> It's a great intro to the kernel APIs
[10:23] <BenC> There's also the linux-doc meta package in Ubuntu, which has html of all the in-source documentation
 QUESTION: what is the new features for gutsy? er...besides the build system
[10:24] <PriceChild> Anything you want to see on the roadmap?
[10:24] <BenC> One area I'd like to concentrate on is the validation and testing infrastructure in the new build system. A lot of regressions from release-to-release (or even from one upload to the next) can be caught at build time.
[10:25] <BenC> There are some ideas on the KernelTeam/Roadmap wiki
 QUESTION:  Ubuntu-Studio requires Low latency.  Can you speak to this?  I'd like the sound to be production quality.  We use Linux thin clients and I'm pondering whether we may be able to some day add VOIP support at the thin client.  What suffers when you use a low latency option?
[10:26] <BenC> low latency is a hot topic for us
[10:26] <BenC> However, we have an issue where the stock kernel doesn't support the needed features, and patches to do this are very invasive
[10:27] <BenC> But, the new build system is going to allow for kernels like this to be built in-tree and uploaded with the rest of the kernel images. We will be VERY picky on which ones get included for this feature.
[10:27] <BenC> lowlatency is most likely one, Xen is another candidate
 QUESTION: how is the kernel team using the information in the ubuntu hardware database?
[10:29] <BenC> In theory we want to use it to gather information on use coverage for certain types of hw, but in reality we haven't made much use of the information at this point
[10:29] <BenC> We done some percentage checks on different things, but nothing of note
 Question: in the next eighteen months to two years do you think that wireless will start seeing more free drivers and less dependancy on blobs to get them working?
[10:30] <BenC> I think we'll see more free drivers, but I don't think we'll ever get rid of things like firmware
[10:31] <BenC> Certain vendors (*cough* Intel) are leading the way by example in releasing open source drivers for wireless. We will even see a daemonless ipw3945 driver during gutsy cycle
 QUESTION: are there plans to backport more drivers to dapper?  people occationally complain that it doesn't support hardware on new servers
[10:32] <BenC> At UDS we plan to do a hw rev discussion for dapper, to create a set of updated drivers for it
[10:32] <BenC> until recently, we haven't had the man power to do it
 QUESTION:  HW testing.  How about having a 60 MB boot CD that has a battery of Kernel tests that you can have people try as a live CD.  Use the hardware database to email people who have specific hardware that needs the testing.
[10:34] <BenC> That's an excellent suggestion. Did I also hear you volunteer to make it? :)
[10:35] <BenC> Seriously, that's just the kinds of ideas we need to get implemented.
 QUESTION : how's the future looking for suspend/hibernate on laptops ?
[10:36] <BenC> The future always looks bright, it's finding the right path to get to get to the light that's hard....Suspend/Hibernate has been famously plagued by bad BIOS implementations, and broken drivers.
[10:37] <BenC> There are efforts upstream to get rid fo the latter, but the former will always be out of our control. People can do things like report problems from the linux firmware kit to their vendors to make them aware.
 QUESTION: Does the kernel team need more help triaging the kernel related bugs in launchpad?
[10:39] <BenC> YES! Triaging bugs is very time consuming. There's info on how you can help at various wiki pages on wiki.ubuntu.com, and specifically at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeamBugPolicies
[10:40] <BenC> Note that kernel bug policy has some slight variations from most bugs in Ubuntu...it's a very specialized area
[10:41] <BenC> We don't turn down any help, but knowing how we operate helps us all :)
 QUESTION: Since you can't have all the hardware in the world (even though you might have some nice rigs) wouldn't it be possible to have a set of normal users, one or two for each main hw, that would be responsible to report any regression and help testing fixes (maybe opening a page for each hw like there is a page for each bug)?
 COMMENT : By main hw I'm also thinking scanners/printers etc
[10:42] <BenC> one or two isn't a problem...we get that just from ubuntu core-devs (collectively we cover every major bit of hw). It's the corner cases we have issues with, and finding people that have those corner cases, or even knowing what they are, is near impossible until the bug occurs.
[10:43] <BenC> Yes, peripheral hw is very hard for us to test...something like that for those types of hw would be very helpful
[10:43] <BenC> at the same time, those sorts of things are as high of a priority as say wireless cards, or SATA controllers
[10:44] <BenC> *aren't
 QUESTION: Ben,  you mentioned that the best way to get started with Kernel development is by diving in or reading the device drivers book. What is the best way to setup a development environment for kernel hacking. Specifically if one is interested in modifying the rt2500 wireless drivers. Thanks!
[10:45] <BenC> for general hacking, it's easiest to just install: make, gcc and linux-headers-generic
[10:46] <BenC> Then you can build something like that modularly and test it easily on your stock system. That reduces the time and variance which would occur with building an entire kernel.
 QUESTION: how about merging suspend2 in the kernel ? it's more mature, and works beautifully out the box, as compared to swsusp
[10:47] <BenC> Knew that was going to come up sooner or later :)
[10:48] <BenC> suspend2 is another incredibly invasive patch that touches way too many stock source files, and makes our headaches worse, even compared to the benefit it may give you
[10:49] <BenC> --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelPatches
[10:50] <BenC> For patches like this, the push should be made upstream as opposed to the distro level...
 QUESTION: Why does the final version of fiesty not support my ati card (however herd 2 did) - Its an ati x1400  More at: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=399913
[10:51] <BenC> That sounds incredibly like an Xorg question as opposed to a kernel question
[10:51] <PriceChild> ooops sorry
[10:52] <BenC> PriceChild: not your fault...Xorg is the kernel nemesis :)
[10:53] <PriceChild> hehe i just clicked the link and saw that the fix required blacklisting a few modules...
[10:53] <PriceChild> "fix"
[10:53] <BenC> If anyone has specific questions regarding bug reports or other issues, the kernel team is always active in #ubuntu-kernel
[10:53] <BenC> well, not _always_, but when we are, that's the place :)
[10:54] <BenC> If you are interested in the kernel team and what we are doing, I strongly recommend subscribing to the kernel-team@lists.ubuntu.com mailing list and checking out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam
[10:55] <BenC> We've got about 5 more minutes. Any final questions?
 QUESTION: if a bug affect a driver what package is afected? kernel(linux-source-2.6.20) or the source of driver (rt2x00)
[10:55] <BenC> I'm quite surprised the topic of kernel version for gutsy hasn't come up yet :)
[10:56] <BenC> In that case, since the source code for that driver came from linux-source-2.6.20, that's where the bug can be fixed
[10:56] <BenC> It's also very helpful to report the bug upstream, since they are the ones most familiar with the hw
[10:56] <BenC> e.g. the rt2x00 project
 QUESTION: what version of linux will be used in gusty?
[10:56] <BenC> Ah, someone saved the day :)
[10:57] <BenC> It's %99.99 sure to be 2.6.22
 QUESTION: Can we see all the ubuntu team in dresses please?
 QUESTION: Linus or Alan?
[10:58] <PriceChild> uu serious one:
[10:58] <BenC> h4wk0: Prepayment for cross-dressing requests can be sent to my paypal account
 QUESTION: how far branched is the ubuntu linux from linus's mainline?  and how much work needs to be done for each new upstream release?
[10:58] <BenC> Oooh...it's actually branched lot more than I would like...we usually end up pulling in some other git tree like libata-dev#upstream for feisty
[10:59] <BenC> But the Ubuntu patches are very limited
[10:59] <BenC> it's usually not a lot of work since most "new" things we pulled in are already upstream by the time the next cycle starts
 QUESTION: ltspfs  It would be useful to allow a machine with lots of ram to share it over the network with machines which do not have much ram.  LTSP has a feature for providing swap.  Is there any chance we will see this sort of option in install routines to add swap space over the network?
[11:00] <BenC> Looks like we're out of time. Thanks everyone for joining, and enjoy the rest of the week!
[11:00] <PriceChild> oops sorry joebaker
[11:00] <PriceChild> Thankyou very much BenC! :)
[11:00] <BenC> joebaker: please pick up in #ubuntu-kernel
[11:01] <BenC> PriceChild: thanks for handling questions
[11:01] <PriceChild> My pleasure :)
[11:05] <gnomefreak> PriceChild: this is last session today? the bazaar one?
[11:05] <PriceChild> gnomefreak, Yes.
[11:06] <gnomefreak> k
[11:06] <poolie> good morning class
[11:06] <poolie> :-)
[11:06] <gnomefreak> hello poolie
[11:06] <poolie> i'm martin pool, i work on Bazaar at Canonical with jam-laptop
[11:06] <poolie> and some other folks
[11:07] <poolie> Bazaar is a version control system designed to work well for ubuntu developers and to work well with launchpad
[11:07] <poolie> and to be easy to learn and pleasant to use
[11:08] <poolie> 'what is a version control system'?
[11:08] <poolie> well it remembers the changes you have made to a source tree, so that you can go back and see why changes were made
[11:08] <poolie> undo changes
[11:08] <poolie> review incoming work
[11:09] <poolie> merge in someone else's work,
[11:09] <poolie> and publish your changes
[11:10] <jam-laptop> Hi all
[11:10] <poolie> there are many other systems, including cvs, svn, monotone, darcs, git, mercurial
[11:10] <poolie> some of the distinguishing features of bazaar include:
[11:10] <poolie> very good support for windows, mac and linux
[11:11] <poolie> a simple user interface and attention to keeping it friendly
[11:11] <poolie> a good python scripting api
[11:11] <poolie> ability to host branches on any web or ftp or file server without needing to run a special daemon
[11:12] <poolie> and very good handling of refactorings like renaming files or directories
[11:12] <poolie> i'll look at some qns
 QUESTION: so bazaar has been designed to fit ubuntu ? and this is not ubuntu which choosed to because it fitted its need ?
[11:12] <poolie> thanks PriceChild
[11:13] <poolie> ubuntu (well, Canonical) was originally basing our work on Arch, an existing system
[11:13] <poolie> and contributing patches to that
 QUESTIONS What are the pros and cons versus SVN
[11:14] <poolie> it wasn't really going in the direction we thought was best, so we started a new system taking the parts we liked from Arch
[11:14] <poolie> the pros: no need for a central server, can commit and do other work while disconnected,
[11:15] <poolie> much better merge tracking and smarter merging
[11:15] <poolie> cons: mostly that it's a younger system, so somewhat less polished, less tools integration, etc
[11:16] <PriceChild> How does bazaar do without a central server to track everything?
[11:16] <poolie> but we plan to go 1.0 in a few months, and there is some work towards gnome, eclipse and visual studio integration
[11:17] <poolie> in Bazaar, each branch lives at a url, and carries a description of its history, including what has been merged in to it
[11:17] <poolie> when you merge from one branch to another, the system works out what's different between them and what has to be done
[11:17] <poolie> let's try it!
[11:18] <poolie> on ubuntu, apt-get install bzr
[11:18] <poolie> then cd to some suitable directory (like your home)
[11:18] <poolie> and do
[11:18] <poolie> bzr branch http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mbp/+junk/seminar
[11:19] <poolie> after a little while, this will give you a toy source  tree i made for this project
 QUESTION: So client side bazaar is just a bunch of scripts and server-side it can be only one ftp server?
[11:19] <poolie> awkorama: uh not just "a bunch of scripts" :-), a suite of lovingly hand-crafted python modules :-)
[11:20] <poolie> that give you one program 'bzr' with various commands
[11:20] <poolie> on the server side it can be an ftp, sftp, http, server
[11:20] <poolie> or you can run the bazaar 'smart server' which is somewhat faster, and will become much faster in future releases
 question: why bother to make it work well with mac and windows?
[11:21] <poolie> mc44, good qn
[11:22] <poolie> it's  because many open source projects, even if their core developers only use ubuntu, end up being ported to Windows
[11:22] <poolie> it can be a pain to support windows but if you keep it in mind during the design it's not that bad
 QUESTION: Bazaar works well for Linux and Ubuntu. Does it also work well for other types of software development, i.e. could/should/will it replace CVS/SVN eventually?
[11:23] <poolie> yes, it does
[11:23] <poolie> it's used by a number of people for internal/commercial development
[11:23] <poolie> i would say it's certainly an improvement on cvs, and depending on your situation could well be better than svn
[11:24] <jam-laptop> I would also like to point out that we have the ability to interoperate with an upstream SVN server
[11:24] <jam-laptop> with the bzr-svn plugin
[11:24] <poolie> oh good point
[11:24] <poolie> jam-
[11:24] <jam-laptop> Which allows you to pull changes from SVN, do your commits in bzr, and (if you have commit rights to SVN) lets you merge your changes back
[11:25] <jam-laptop> https://launchpad.net/bzr-svn is the project page
 I only got one file, hello when I branched his URL
[11:25] <poolie> if you ran that command "bzr branch http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mbp/+junk/seminar" you should have got a directory 'seminar'
[11:26] <poolie> containing one file, 'hello'
[11:26] <poolie> with some text in it
[11:26] <poolie> if you cd to that directory and run 'bzr log'
[11:26] <poolie> then you should see that i created it early this morning
[11:27] <poolie> ddaa points out there is also a hidden directory .bzr which contains our control files
[11:28] <jam-laptop> nansub0111: QUESTION:does the bzr-svn plug-in work the other way as well too? Suppose I use bzr locally for version control, but the public repository is subversion. Thanks
[11:28] <jam-laptop> nansub0111: COMMENT:I should clarify I want to use subversion only for releasing public files
[11:28] <jam-laptop> There is some work to support serving SVN information from a bzr repositor.
[11:28] <jam-laptop> repository
[11:29] <jam-laptop> so people with only an SVN client can still check out your source code
[11:29] <poolie> you can push back into svn from bzr
[11:29] <jam-laptop> I believe the basic "checkout" support is functional, but you cannot commit yet.
[11:29] <poolie> as an alternative approach
[11:29] <poolie> oh maybe not then
[11:29] <jam-laptop> nansub0111: jam-laptop: I ask because i am using googlecode to host a project, but all of my version control is done with bazaar.
[11:29] <jam-laptop> For this setup, bzr-svn would definitely work
[11:29] <jam-laptop> you could do your work locally using bzr
[11:30] <jam-laptop> and then merge/commit back to googlecode's svn repository
[11:30] <jam-laptop> poolie: mc44: QUESTION: sabdfl has talking about the importance of revision control in freedom even other than code. Can bazaar be used for non code applications? what sort of applications do you think it could be useful f
[11:31] <poolie> mc44: you can certainly use it for documentation, web content
[11:31] <poolie> other things that are not code but look a bit more like code
[11:31] <poolie> i agree with mark about the importance of free collaboration on other things
[11:32] <poolie> bazaar at the moment is a bit biased towards "things that look like code"
[11:32] <poolie> eg you cannot comfortably commit very large binary files
[11:32] <poolie> but the real issue in collaborating on, say, graphics or music
[11:32] <poolie> is that it is sometimes hard to merge the changes if two people have modified them
 QUESTION: will pakages be handeld via bzr in future?
[11:33] <poolie> yes, they will
[11:33] <poolie> at the moment some packages are maintained in bazaar trees,
[11:33] <poolie> and there are some tools to help you do this
[11:33] <PriceChild> launchpad is managing some sources in bzr isn't it?
[11:34] <poolie> there is a list of these packages on the ubuntu wiki i believe
[11:34] <poolie> launchpad does a few things with bazaar
[11:34] <poolie> bazaar is the way that launchpad thinks about code, if you like
[11:34] <poolie> firstly, it can host your branches so other people can get them
[11:34] <poolie> like the url i gave above
[11:35] <poolie> and it provides a directory of branches, like
[11:35] <poolie> https://code.launchpad.net/~bzr
[11:35] <poolie> these branches are owned by the 'bzr' group, and any of us can commit to them
[11:36] <poolie> you can see that some of them are linked to bugs
[11:36] <poolie> and if you click through you can also see the code within them
[11:36] <poolie> launchpad also provides a service of automated imports from svn or cvs to bzr
[11:37] <poolie> i need to catch up on qns!
 QUESTION: Is there a tutorial somewhere? What other resources would you recommend to get to know bazaar?
[11:37] <poolie> ucap, there is on bazaar-vcs,org,
[11:37] <poolie> and there are usually people in #bzr on freenode who can help
[11:37] <poolie> or write to bazaar@lists.ubuntu.com
 QUESTION: Is BazaarNG ever going to get small, simple *and* fast as Mercurial? ;-)
[11:38] <poolie> tekNico: yes, we're *very focused* on speed and it's getting faster in every release
[11:38] <poolie> many thanks due to jam-laptop in that area
 for an example of a non-code project using ubuntu: https://code.launchpad.net/spreadubuntu/
[11:39] <PriceChild> I'm keeping a list of qns unanswered so far :)
 QUESTION: Do you use Bazaar while developing Bazaar?
[11:39] <poolie> alienSkull: yes of course,
[11:39] <poolie> like many ubuntu-related projects we do review of new contributions
[11:40] <poolie> when people post new patches to the list, it's caught  by http://bundlebuggy.aaronbentley.com/
[11:40] <poolie> which keeps track of the review comments, and uses bzr to find out when they're merged
[11:40] <poolie> PriceChild: next?
 QUESTION: what is the status of the eclipse plugin ? how stable it is, can i feel confident that it wont crash my precious source code ? :)
[11:41] <poolie> zorglu_: sorry i don't know off hand, i don't use eclipse
[11:41] <poolie> best to ask on the list
[11:41] <jam-laptop> I've followed it a bit
[11:41] <jam-laptop> It is still pretty early on
[11:41] <jam-laptop> Since it uses bzr as the back end
[11:41] <jam-laptop> it won't "crash your precious source code"
[11:41] <jam-laptop> But it may get fussy when you try to use it.
[11:42] <jam-laptop> Since Eclipse needs to be taught how to think like bzr.
[11:42] <PriceChild> dabaR, would like to see the continuation of the demo you were doing poolie.
[11:42] <poolie> ok
[11:43] <poolie> so at least one person now has a copy of my code
[11:43] <poolie> now edit 'hello' in your favourite editor
[11:43] <poolie> add a line of text or two
[11:43] <poolie> save/exit
[11:43] <poolie> and run 'bzr diff'
[11:44] <poolie> and it shows you what you've change
[11:44] <poolie> and 'bzr status' summarizes that
[11:44] <poolie> this should be familiar from cvs or svn
[11:44] <poolie> you can now 'bzr commit'
[11:44] <poolie> this may be surprising - you don't have write access to my branch - but you can do it into your new local branch
[11:45] <poolie> now try 'bzr log' and it should show your change following mine
 QUESTION: how do I see where it got commited to?
[11:45] <poolie> i'll let people catch up...
[11:46] <poolie> that's kind of an interesting question
[11:46] <poolie> it gets committed to whatever branch you're currently in
 QUESTION: How do you tell bazaar to commit to another location like for an example an FTP Server?
[11:47] <poolie> Demon012: you can do this in two ways
[11:47] <poolie> if you want to commit directly there, every time you type commit
[11:47] <poolie> then you should make a branch on the server with bzr init, then from your machine do 'bzr bind ftp://euthaoeuthaoeu'
[11:48] <poolie> but what i'm going to recommend here is
[11:48] <poolie> that you instead push your changes to the server after you've made them
[11:48] <poolie> so you can do 'bzr push URL'
[11:48] <poolie> where URL is an sftp or ftp url
[11:48] <poolie> if you have a launchpad account with ssh keys, you can push there
[11:48] <poolie> with bzr push sftp://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mbp/+junk/seminar
[11:48] <poolie> change 'mbp' to your name
[11:49] <poolie> branches on launchpad need to be associated with a product, here we have "+junk" to say it's not
[11:49] <poolie> next qn?
[11:49] <jam-laptop> nealmcb: QUESTION: I'd like to use bzr to manage changes to configurations in /etc and maybe other places.  The documentation mentions this, but I'd love to see best practices or examples tailored to sysadmin.    And I'd love to be able to host the repository somewhere other than in /etc or / itself.
[11:49] <jam-laptop> That is a more involved situation
[11:50] <jam-laptop> and some people have certainly thought about it a bit
[11:50] <jam-laptop> The #1 solution I've seen, is that you version the tree in another location
[11:50] <jam-laptop> and then use symlinks to point into it.
[11:50] <jam-laptop> This lets you version sub-pieces of /etc in different branches
[11:50] <jam-laptop> and keeps the VCS data separated from the running files
[11:51] <jam-laptop> poolie: dAndy: QUESTION: Is bzr entirely python or is there C mixed in for better performance? What else is being done to improve performance?
[11:51] <poolie> at the moment the main release is all python, but we will likely add C soon,
[11:52] <poolie> actually pyrex, a python-like language that compiles to C
[11:52] <jam-laptop> I think in general we have focused on getting the right algorithm in python
[11:52] <poolie> the main things we're doing on performance atm are doing less io, and doing more efficient network traffic
[11:52] <jam-laptop> It is much easier to switch from a O(N^2) algorithm to an O(logN) one in python
[11:52] <jam-laptop> and once we have that, we can optimize for C/Python speeds
[11:53] <jam-laptop> Rather than trying to make a really fast C O(N^2) algorithm, that will always end up slow
 COMMENT: for the push I had to include my LP username like so "bzr push sftp://user@bazaar.launchpad.net/..."
[11:53] <poolie> ranf: ah true, i have the same name on my machine
 QUESTION: is there any web based bazaar clients that can be used to submit changes to a branch? or even to just view the contents revisions to them?
[11:54] <poolie> there is nothing to submit changes atm - that would be good for documentation
[11:54] <poolie> you can use 'loggerhead' to view the contents and revisions
[11:55] <jam-laptop> https://launchpad.net/loggerhead
[11:55] <jam-laptop> which is set up at
 16:48 < rulus> Question: how to get your change to poolie's branch?
[11:55] <poolie> you can get your changes in in several ways:
[11:55] <poolie> if you had write access (which you don't here) then just push in directly
[11:55] <poolie> otherwise, i need to merge it
[11:56] <jam-laptop> An example is: http://codebrowse.launchpad.net/~bzr/bzr/trunk
[11:56] <poolie> you can do 'bzr bundle' to produce a text file you can mail to me
[11:56] <poolie> or you can post the public url (eg http) into -chat, and i'll merge from there
 QUESTION: How important is launchpad for the success of bazaar and/or vice-versa?
[11:57] <poolie> ucap: they're pretty complimentary, and we work closely together
[11:57] <poolie> i think launchpad is exciting because it can have such an integrated view of the code
[11:58] <poolie> and bazaar because launchpad gives you a centralized view that's otherwise missing - helping you find the branches that fix different bugs for example
 QUESTION How about roll back.. is that merge a earlier version and commit as svn or is there a rollback feature
[11:59] <poolie> to revert your working directory, 'bzr revert'
[11:59] <poolie> see also uncommit, and 'bzr revert -r -2' to discard changes from the last two, or 'bzr merge -r -20..-19' to reverse one change
[11:59] <poolie> one minute to live!
[12:00] <jam-laptop> I would also comment that we have "bzr uncommit"
[12:00] <poolie> thanks very much, interesting questions
[12:00] <jam-laptop> in case you want to throw away changes from your branch completely.
[12:00] <jam-laptop> You are all also welcome in #bzr on this server
[12:00] <jam-laptop> Feel free to ask questions there
[12:01] <poolie> thanks jam