/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2007/04/23/#ubuntu-devel.txt

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jdubwoo, time to upgrade to gusty!12:43
graymanhah12:44
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graymangood call12:44
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=== sharms starts work on Gusty + 20 -- entirely xml based toolchain, no unix file system, and controlled via USS Enterprise like system, and a bikeshed
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jmgsharms: you mean LCARS12:49
sharmsyeah :)12:49
jmghttp://themes.freshmeat.net/projects/lcarsaccess441/12:50
jmg(iii) make any copies of the PV Drivers or use the PV Drivers other than in conjunction with licensed Products.12:53
jmgoops12:53
jmghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwXBPjLdJnU12:53
sharmsha that looks bad ass12:54
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\x-itI know this is not a support channel but, basically, no one knows wtf to do in #linux/#ubuntu/#debian or anywhere and I am wondering if one if you would help me in a /msg? It is concerning wheel/su/chmod. Once I restart, I will not be able to login to root anymore (ever), basically.02:19
\x-itAnd I don't feel like reinstalling ><02:19
\x-itI can bribe? ;p02:20
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sharms\x-it: #1 it isn't really proper etiquette to PM, or ask in channels which are not for the chosen topic.  Fortunately for you, I am the bad boy of ubuntu, so I will give you 120 seconds of my time03:08
sharms\x-it: there is no password for root by default03:09
\x-itHmm?03:09
\x-itI know.03:09
sharms\x-it: with that stated, ask your question in a specific manner, and you have 92 seconds left03:09
\x-itIt's ok03:09
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sharmshttps://help.ubuntu.com/community/RootSudo  -- that should really cover anything related to root03:10
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johanbrxq: Did you get it sorted out?03:56
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sidroot@cookooland:~# apt-get install linux-restricted-modules-2.6.20-15-generic, E: Couldn't find package linux-restricted-modules-2.6.20-15-generic, When I started restricted-manager... it tells me it can't run without that program. But this program isn't installable... anyone have a link to the deb? or know how to install it?04:20
sidI don't see it listed here: http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/l/ .. Is this a bug?04:20
graymanerm04:24
graymanthat's really the wrong place to ask that and you're doing it wrongly04:24
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sidgrayman: synaptic or aptitude don't show the package either.(my sources.list are here: http://rafb.net/p/hhRH1612.html ) .. I removed this package to mess with madwifi and openhal, but the module doesn't work with my chipset(yet), so I did make uninstall in my madwifi directory, and I am not able to get linux-restricted-modules-2.6.20-15-generic installed again. I'm running feisty with all default settings(except removing linux-restricted* for experim04:27
sidI think it's a bug, I'm pretty sure. Can anyone confirm, try to purge linux-restricted-modules-2.6.20-15-generic and install it again?04:27
graymanah you're under root. it is there in my mirror04:28
graymanmight be missing in yours04:28
sidgrayman: So you were able to purge it and than install it?04:29
graymani see it in the list and it's already installed04:29
sidgrayman: You have a link?04:29
graymanto what?04:29
sidThe deb?04:29
sidhmm, it was in restricted. It's strange that a package comes on the maincd, but I'm not able to remove/install it, since the sources.list doesn't have restricted by default.04:33
sidShould make it so you're able to remove/install any package that is installed via the disc when formatting with Ubuntu.04:34
sidthanks a lot for the help grayman, I appreciate it.04:34
graymanyes well, next time it's really a question for @ubuntu04:34
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graymans/@/#04:34
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jugo23How exactly can I become involved with helping develop ubuntu?05:08
jmgjugo23: start by filing/fixing bugs05:09
lifelessjugo23: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate05:09
jugo23Where do I find reported bugs that need fixing?05:12
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pygijugo23: www.launchpad.net05:13
jugo23Thank you.05:13
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pygiyw05:15
jugo23Another question: What programming language do you think assists in the overall development of ubuntu?05:16
jmgPython05:16
jugo23That's what I would have guessed.05:16
jmgor perl, c05:17
jmgequally valuable05:17
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imbecileI just had to come in here to say that fiesty is by far the most pleasant linux distro I have ever used.. thank you all very much for your hard work.. I LOVE IT!!!!!05:20
xqjohanbr: Yes, thank you very much05:20
johanbrI didn't really do anything, but you're welcome. :)05:21
xqJust asking and being polite is worth a thank you for asking :)05:21
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brycejugo23: there's several projects hosted at launchpad.net; make sure to click on the 'ubuntu' first, then search on projects05:38
xqAlso be sure to join your local team if there is one :)05:38
Hobbseemorning all05:42
pygihi Hobbsee 05:46
Hobbsee:)05:46
pygiwhat are you upto at this early morning? :)05:51
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Hobbseeit's 2pm05:54
pygior 5:55AM, depends on how you put it05:56
Hobbseetrue06:00
ion_Morning.06:18
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MithrandirLutin: sure.07:11
fabbionemorning07:12
ajmitchmorning fabbione, Mithrandir 07:12
Mithrandirmorning ajmitch, fabbione 07:13
=== fabbione hugs everybody
Hobbseehi Mithrandir, fabbione 07:19
=== Hobbsee hugs fabbione back
=== Mithrandir hugs Hobbsee back
=== Hobbsee hugs Mithrandir :)
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Burgundaviamorning Mithrandir, fabbione07:30
Mithrandirhiya Burg07:31
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pittiGood morning07:36
Hobbseehi pitti!07:37
Mithrandirmorning pitti07:38
fabbionehey pitti07:41
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Hobbseeer, :)07:41
ion_Hi pitti07:42
ion_pitti: I finally got around to setting my jabberd back up; i also added your JID to my contact list.07:42
pittiion_: ah, nice; I'm not on jabber ATM, I will be again when I'm back at my workstation (gf is still asleep :) )07:43
ajmitchhey pitti 07:43
ion_My JID is ion@heh.fi in case anyone else feels like adding it. :-)07:43
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Lathiatyeh i like irc07:45
Lathiatjabber beats msn07:45
ion_pitti: Me too. But jabber is nice for talking with people for whom IRC is too complex, such as my parents.07:45
pittiion_: right07:45
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HobbseeLathiat: it's group chats are a bit weird though07:46
ion_ajmitch: Helping your dad configure stuff on his computer is a lot easier with a text-based system where you can write commands and he can paste their output. :-)07:47
Lathiation_: yeh thats what msn is for :)07:47
Lathiatmost of my non 'geek' friends are on msn07:47
ion_I should set up a VPN from his computer to my network so i could just log in to his box, though.07:47
ion_MSN randomly drops messages. At least gaim shows an error (after a long delay), but the official Messenger doesnt even do that. :-)07:48
Lathiati never have a problem with that07:48
Mithrandirthere was a "TCP-over-gaim" SoC project which looked kinda interesting.07:48
Lathiatgaim actually sends me *too many* errors07:48
Lathiathalf the time i send a message in msn on gaim it sends an error back but they got the message07:49
Lathiatusually the first message i send07:49
Lathiatbut yeh i have sen errors come back like 10 minutes later, like . once or twice.07:49
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dholbachgood morning08:01
ion_Hi08:02
dholbachhey ion_08:02
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JussiPI wrote a wiki page describing why Linux should support fully relocatable binaries. Read it here and tell me what you think: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RelocatableBinaries08:33
pittiJussiP: is that -fPIE?08:34
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JussiPNo.08:34
Mithrandirpitti: noe08:34
Mithrandirnope08:34
pittiah, no08:34
phratmanHello.08:34
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phratmanCould someone else look into this as well to verify that some sort of bug in kickstart -> d-i translation is in effect? Step a) Make a simple kickstart setup (doesn't really matter what it looks like as long as it has a post installation script that untars a .tar file) Step b) Boot up an Ubuntu Feisty Alternate Installation CD with the ks=<path to the kickstart configuration file> (Hit F6 and add ks=http://somewebserver08:34
JussiPRelocatable as in "move it anywhere within your filesystem and it still works".08:34
phratmanIf a "bad number" error is displayed in /var/log/syslog on the installation CD, then the error has been successfully been reproduced. I've tried it on two different machines (albeit with the same make and model, but physically two different machines) and I have reproduced the error at least two or three times over.08:35
MithrandirJussiP: your claim that you can't run two apaches in parallell is false.08:35
phratman(on each)08:35
JussiPIt was an example.08:35
MithrandirJussiP: use examples which are true, then.08:35
phratmanAlso, I've noticed another bug with kickstart but I haven't filed it with Launchpad just yet. Is it faster to just talk to a developer about it here... ?08:36
pittiJussiP: two hald instances will fight each other badly, for example08:36
pittior dbus08:36
JussiPBut you can stop one and start the other one. Just as with self-compiled versions.08:37
pittiof course08:37
JussiPWhich is pretty much the entire point.08:38
JussiPReplaced apache with foobar on the page.08:38
MithrandirI'm not sure what problem you're trying to solve.  For instance, by far most of the software I come across runs just fine out of the compilation directories.08:38
phratmanHello?08:38
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HobbseeMithrandir: i presume the sysadmins know that the wiki is dog slow, and has been for days?08:39
phratmanAh, overlap noted.08:39
graymanyup08:39
Mithrandirphratman: #ubuntu-installer might be a better channel to ask in.08:39
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phratmanJeez, you people are even better organizers than I presumed :)08:39
JussiPThe problem is that if you have a .so file and it has its own conf file, what should it pass to fopen to read it.08:39
MithrandirHobbsee: I don't know.08:40
mdkeHobbsee: best thing is to ask them. I wouldn't assume they do08:40
BurgundaviaMithrandir: really old laptop testing team results. Keep or nuke??08:40
MithrandirJussiP: shared objects shouldn't have configuration files.08:40
MithrandirBurgundavia: really old as in breezy?08:40
BurgundaviaMithrandir: and earllier08:40
Hobbseemdke: who are they?08:40
JussiPMithrandir: why not?08:40
MithrandirBurgundavia: nuke them, IMO.08:40
MithrandirJussiP: encoding the soname in the name of the configuration file is painful and makes migration hard when you upgrade, for a start.08:41
mdkeHobbsee: https://launchpad.net/~canonical-sysadmins / #canonical-sysadmin 08:41
Burgundaviaanybody else got an opinion?08:41
phratmanHehe, I was told this channel isn't very active... apparently someone meant to say #ubuntu-installer isn't very active.08:42
JussiPAnd that would be different from executable files how?08:42
MithrandirJussiP: do you know what a soname is and why we have them?08:42
Hobbseemdke: great, thanks.  i'll take the duncecap for not picking the smart answer :P08:42
mdkenp08:42
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JussiPSorry, I don't know linker magic all that much.08:43
MithrandirJussiP: so, each time you break backwards compatibility, you change the name of the library.  Usually, that is done by incrementing a digit at the end of the name (libc6 is the sixth or seventh libc ABI for instance).  This is done so you don't have to recompile all your applications in one go and libraries with different sonames can be installed in parallell.08:45
Mithrandirwe don't do anything like that for most applications, and when we do, we don't migrate settings, which is bad and leaves the user out in the cold.08:45
Mithrandirlike apache 1 => apache 2; they're coinstallable, but no attempt at migrating the settings from a1 to a2 is done.08:45
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Mithrandirdoko: good morning.08:48
Mithrandirdoko: gcc-4.1 ftbfs on ppc and sparc. :-/08:48
JussiPI know that, but can't formulate something suitable for an answer. So let's stick to executables then. Same question as above but s/a .so file/an executable file/.08:49
dokoMithrandir: seen, trying to track this down. was afk most of the weekend08:49
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Mithrandirdoko: thanks.08:49
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MithrandirJussiP: I actually think those use cases are, for the most part, better solved by using solutions such as zeroinstall or klik.08:52
JussiPZeroinstall's faq says: "The main requirement is that the program doesn't use hard-coded paths." What I'm suggesting is a system-wide and standardised way to achieve this for any program.08:55
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Mithrandirthat's slightly incorrect, it just needs to use relative paths.08:56
mvoJussiP: klik should not have this requirement08:58
Hobbseewho said we're getting klik?08:58
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JussiPIt also says "a shell script would use `dirname $0`/mydata rather than /usr/share/myprog/mydata". The dirname part in shell code is exactly equivalent to having a function as I describe on the wiki page.09:01
Mithrandiryou want a function that is essentially dirname(argv[0] ), you're aware of that?09:03
JussiPExcept that argv[0]  is almost always just 'foo'.09:04
JussiPNot '/usr/bin/foo' or whatever.09:04
pittidirname(/proc/self/exe), then? :)09:04
pittiwell,l readlink()09:05
JussiPPlease read this: http://autopackage.org/docs/binreloc/09:05
phratmanOh, I heard rumors that Ubuntu was going to get off Debian and get onto some sort of alternative (autopackage was a term that was thrown around). Is there any truth to that?09:05
JussiPpitti: yes, exactly except that a) it is not portable (I think) and b) does not work for libraries (as mentioned on the link above).09:05
Mithrandirphratman: no.09:05
phratmanI thought Ubuntu and Debian had really close ties so I dispelled such rumors.09:05
Burgundaviaphratman: last time I checked today is not April 1st,09:06
phratmanBurgundavia: Point taken.09:06
Hobbseephratman: if you read it off the forums, and not off ubuntu-devel ML or something, it's probably not true09:07
pittiJussiP: hm, I don't really understand why a library should behave differently when it is run from different paths09:07
phratmanHobbsee: It was by word of mouth.09:07
shawarmapitti: Is the automatic apport retracer thing not running anymore?09:08
pittiJussiP: people often use LD_LIBRARY_PATH to use a locally built version for testing, or to install a needed lib on computers where they don't have root etc., but that should often not alter their behaviour09:08
JussiPpitti: suppose it has to access some data files such as icons that get installed along with it. What file name should it pass to fopen?09:08
pittishawarma: no, it isn't, we need to fix python-launchpad-bugs first; the latest LP rollout broke it09:08
pittiJussiP: right, I see such use cases09:09
shawarmapitti: Ah, ok. Thanks.09:09
pittiJussiP: my point is, that this should not *always* be the case09:09
pittiJussiP: i. e. developers often start e. g. gnome-panel with a locally built libgnomevfs.so, but that doesn't mean that they want the library to use /home/foo/icons (which doesn't exist)09:10
JussiPFair enough, but it does have uses and is currently impossible (without hacking).09:10
pittiJussiP: or I want to install and use libfakeroot.so on a server where I'm not root, etc.09:10
shawarmapitti: Hm... So the a local "apport-retrace <bugnumber>" won't work either, I suppose?09:11
pittiJussiP: I'm not convinced that there is a central and nonintrusive solution TBH; this needs to be carefully implemented per-library09:11
pittishawarma: I'm not sure whether it works with -o or -s; you can try09:11
pittishawarma: I just disabled it quickly to not loose the bug tags until this is resolved09:11
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pittiJussiP: I fully agree to 'being useful sometimes'09:12
JussiPYes, but adding the *possibility* to do that to the system is a very small addition (since you can dig out the information if you really, really want to).09:12
shawarmapitti: Oh, it's the upload-the-new-traces-to-launchpad bit that's broken in python-launchpad-bugs?09:12
JussiPIn other words: adding this function will break 0 applications and libraries. Having it available gives coders a lot more freedom and capabilities.09:13
pittishawarma: I'm really not sure, I didn't have time to look into it yet; I hope that I can fix this today09:13
shawarmapitti: Ok. Thanks.09:14
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JussiPEven more simplified: having this makes OSX app bundle type stuff possible. And thus Mac users have to find a new thing to boast about.09:16
pittiJussiP: they don't have apt-get install <anything you want> :-P09:17
JussiPNeither do we. There's a lot of stuff that's not packaged. In blue sky dreams having fully relocatable LSB binaries app devs could just create one of those and it would work on any distro, in any path. [add sufficient smileys here] 09:21
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delmorephttp://digg.com/linux_unix/Compile_the_Audacity_1_3_2_Beta_with_Ubuntu_Feisty09:34
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pittimvo: can I nag you about the apport and tzdata feisty-proposed verifications?10:07
pittihi slomo!10:07
slomohi pitti 10:08
mvopitti: sure, its on my list for today, let me check if its available in the archive now10:08
pittislomo: I will write some MIRs for texlive today, so that we can do the tetex->texlive transition as early as possible10:08
pittimvo: I just checked, it is10:08
pygihi pitti and mvo 10:08
pittihi pygi10:09
mvohey pygi!10:09
slomopitti: sounds good :) i already planned that soon too and the versions currently in debian are working good for my stuff ;)10:10
seb128hi slomo10:11
pittislomo: do you happen to know if they moved all the tetex-patches to texlive?10:11
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mvopitti: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/feisty-proposed/main/binary-i386/Packages.gz <- is empty for me10:12
pittislomo: the thing we currently still carry is the 'patch for not crashing for 0.5 hour timezones'10:12
pittimvo: urgh, they are on drescher10:12
slomopitti: no idea... and your poppler patch is still not there as poppler 0.5 is still not in unstable...10:12
pittimvo: that url is not empty for me, hm10:12
slomohi seb128 10:12
pittislomo: that's easy enough to carry ourselves for now10:12
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slomopitti: i would assume that the timezone patch is upstream but shouldn't be hard to verify ;)10:13
pittiright10:13
mvopitti: it is for me even with wget --no-cache, strange10:13
Nafallonot empty for me either10:13
pittimvo: hm, you might have a different mirror which is out of date10:13
pittimvo: try de.archive10:14
mvopitti: I will try to reach the sysadmins10:14
Mithrandirpitti,mvo : archive.u.c was being hammered over the weekend, so I suspect it's just not up-to-date.10:14
NafalloMithrandir: wget said it wasn't empty for me :-)10:15
mvopitti: thanks, de.archive.u.c works10:15
pittimvo: the two apport bugs have hints for testing, btw10:16
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mvopitti: thats good, thanks10:18
saispohi folks10:22
saispodebootstrap under edgy is not updated for gutsy ?10:23
saispo./usr/lib/debootstrap/scripts/gutsy: Not found in archive10:23
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Fujitsusaispo: It won't be... You always need the one from the development release.10:26
elena_gcan someone tell me if this 56k modem is supported by Feisty?:     01:07.0 Modem: ALi Corporation SmartLink SmartPCI563 56K Modem10:27
elena_gopps hello all :)10:27
saispoFujitsu: i must upgrade my edgy to feisty for having a debootstrap with gutsy ?10:27
Fujitsuelena_g: Try #ubuntu10:27
elena_gFujitsu, ok :)10:27
Fujitsusaispo: No, you must upgrade debootstrap to gutsy's version.10:27
FujitsuCome to think of it, I don't think it's even in gutsy yet.10:27
saispohmmmm strange10:28
MithrandirFujitsu: given that gutsy is frozen until we have a toolchain, yes.10:28
FujitsuHow's it at all strange, saispo?10:28
saispoMithrandir: ok, i understand know :)10:28
FujitsuMithrandir: Well, tzdata got through.10:28
saispoFujitsu: because before, i can use beootstrap for feisty under an edgy :)10:28
FujitsuBut I guess that doesn't really need to build all that much.10:28
MithrandirFujitsu: yes, tzdata was the first bit of the bootstrap.10:28
saispoi must wait for toolchain :)10:28
FujitsuDo we backport debootstrap or something?10:28
saispoFujitsu: no10:29
Mithrandirthen binutils, then glibc, then gcc-4.1, but the gcc-4.1 build failed on powerpc and sparc so we need to fix that first.10:29
saispook10:29
saispothanks Fujitsu and Mithrandir 10:29
saispoi will move my edgy to feisty10:29
FujitsuHow is tzdata particularly important for bootstrapping? Isn't it just a set of timezone files which can be updated arbitrarily?10:29
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saispoi see updates for feisty but not available on repository, it's "normal" ?10:41
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seb128saispo: what updates?where?10:41
saispoeuh... works now :/ update for capplet, apport and some other things10:44
saispomaybe the mirror was not up2date :)10:44
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mvosiretart: do you plan uploads for edgy, dapper for #104332 as well? 10:59
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siretartbug 104332 was the rdesktop update, no?11:23
ubotuMalone bug 104332 in rdesktop "Segmentation Fault (core dumped)" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/10433211:23
siretartright.11:23
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siretartmvo: I can do it. However, it appeared as a consequence of an security upload11:23
siretartmvo: are machines with -security but not -updates common?11:24
mvosiretart: sometimes, but I guess not common (but I have no figures)11:24
mvosiretart: I'm just asking because it has a dapper and edgy tasks11:24
siretartmvo: honstely, I'm not exactly sure if dapper and edgy are affected at all11:25
mvoeh, edgy only11:25
siretartif they are affected, then it's because of a security related change in libx11-611:25
mvook, I leave it as it is then, I do not have anything to test rdesktop against11:26
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pittidholbach: argh @ the multitude of branches without descriptions on https://code.launchpad.net/bughelper11:34
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pittidholbach: if I do the attachment upload fix on the bughelper.0.1 branch, will you merge it to trunk?11:35
dholbachpitti: yes11:39
dholbachpitti: will add descriptions11:39
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pygiho dholbach 11:44
dholbachhi pygi11:45
pittidholbach, seb128: ah, I have the python-launchpad-bugs fix11:48
seb128pitti: rock on11:48
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ion_Hi pygi11:49
dholbachpitti: super! let me know when you committed it11:49
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pittidholbach: bug 10921311:56
ubotuMalone bug 109213 in bughelper "recent LP rollout broke Bug.add_comment()" [High,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/10921311:56
pittidholbach: I added the branch, tasks, etc.11:56
dholbachsaw the bug - thanks pitti11:57
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pittialright, retracers are happy and running again12:21
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pittiwith a huge work pool ;)12:22
pittioh, need to do ppc retracer as well12:23
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ogranow that i have a working implementation in initramfs it appears immensely slower than v3 :/12:36
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racarrQuestions about UDS: 1. Does the Hotel provide breakfast? 2. What do people do for lunch?12:55
Treenaksracarr: 1. yes, like most hotels (it costs extra, no idea if it's included if you're sponsored); 2. no idea.12:58
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racarrTreenaks: Mrgh. Ok. I guess I will send an email to find out if it is covered with sponsorship then...01:06
racarrThanks.01:06
pygiracarr: they usually eat for lunch :P01:06
racarrpygi: Har har. 01:06
AmaranthThe only one I've been to had lunch from Google so... :)01:06
TreenaksI'01:07
TreenaksWe went to the hotel restaurant in Montreal01:07
Treenaksand there was Death in a Bag in mataro (only for sponsored people)01:07
Mithrandirlunch tends to be on-site, dinner is usually out in the city somewhere, most of the days you're on your own, but some days there are big group dinners.01:08
AmaranthDeath in a Bag?01:08
MithrandirI'm not sure if this is how it'll be done this time around as well, but that's how it's usually been done.01:08
MithrandirAmaranth: I doubt we'll have those every again.01:08
AmaranthIn Mountain View my dinner ended up being whatever came out of the hotel vending machine :P01:08
AmaranthWhat is this 'Death in a Bag'?01:09
thom*giggle*01:09
TreenaksAmaranth: oskuro.net/blog/freesoftware/mataro-halfway-2004-12-10-12-2901:09
pygiAmaranth: a cat01:09
pygi:P01:09
racarrMithrandir: And do you know about Breakfast being included in sponsorship?01:09
Mithrandirwe had some unfortunate lunches in mataro which quickly got the nickname "death bags"01:09
Mithrandirracarr: I would assume so, yes.01:10
AmaranthTreenaks: that makes me download an empty file01:10
StevenKHum. oskuro.net looks broken01:10
TreenaksAmaranth: google cache for it works01:10
Mithrandirracarr: afaik, when people are sponsored their travel + hotel + food is sponsored, but I haven't been sponsored for years so I'm not sure if this has changed.01:10
racarrMithrandir: Ok. Thanks.01:11
LutinMithrandir: thanks for rejecting allegro and SRUing cinepaint :)01:12
AmaranthFood from the local jail sounded like a better alternative? Yikes. :)01:12
TreenaksAmaranth: that was Mataro :) The hotel in Montreal was much much better01:12
pygidholbach: yay, message sent :P01:13
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Treenaks(also, there were lots of places where you could eat.. Subway, etc.)01:13
MithrandirLutin: oh, my pleasure.  Would you mind pushing cinepaint through the rest of the process so we could get it into -updates?  (I did it mainly because we needed a test package for -proposed)01:14
LutinMithrandir: sure, I'll do that :)01:16
Mithrandirthanks01:16
Adri2000pitti: have you received my email (requestsync patch)?01:23
pittiAdri2000: I got it, yes, but we cannot upload to gutsy yet, so I didn't look at it yet01:23
Adri2000ok01:24
pittiAdri2000: looks reasonable so far, although invoking $EDITOR would be cool :)01:24
pittireading from stdin should be good enough for smaller diffs, though01:25
Mithrandirpitti: it should then just call sensible-editor01:25
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Demon012hi everyone I am wishing to join in with development (I am new to developing open source software. Is this channel the correct one for me or is it the #ubuntu-motu ?)01:30
AmaranthDemon012: #ubuntu-motu might be a better place01:31
Mithrandir#ubuntu-motu is probably a better starting point.01:31
harrisonyDemon012: if you want to package the software (that is used in synaptic MOTU is for you)01:31
AmaranthDemon012: But that's mostly for packaging software for Ubuntu (which requires some knowledge about how the software works)01:31
Demon012ok ty guys01:32
Demon012I wish to help with the actual coding though. But do you think I should start with packaging?01:32
harrisonyDemon012: if you want to be a dev of ubuntu here is the right place01:33
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harrisony(i dont dev i just admire the devs and all the cool people hang out here)01:33
pygiDemon012: go to launchpad, look at bugs, write patches, and attach them to bugs01:34
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Demon012ok pygi will start with trying to do that 01:35
Demon012is there a standards list I should look at or anything for ubuntu code?01:35
pygiDemon012: what are you using most? What are your interests?01:35
Demon012like a standardised indentation style?01:36
Demon012I am a programming student01:36
Demon012have been programming properly for 4 years01:36
pygiDemon012: I mean what are your interests :) Music applications, education, ltsp, cd-recording apps, etc, etc?01:36
Demon012oh right sorry =)01:36
Demon012mmm music, education, communcation, user interface design01:37
Demon012and general program design for that matter01:37
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pygiok, well, go to #edubuntu and ask what can you help with some of the educational applications :)01:38
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Demon012ok will do ty01:38
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racarrDemon012: All the upstream projects will have their own style.01:46
sjoerdpitti: Thanks for your deb<->ubuntu merge mail for gvm.. little nag: please use the pkg-utopia-maintainers list next time :)01:47
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ograpitti, if i could manage to get hal to run on a thin client and manage to read the info for a blockdevice, mount it via ltspfs and then use set property to create a copy fr that device on the server but with the ltspfs mount as device node, do you think hal would survive and handle that ? 01:58
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pittire02:09
pittisjoerd: oh, I will; is that free for anybody for posting?02:10
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mantiena-baltixHi all02:10
sjoerdNot 100% sure, but your allowed to post (as the hal changes discussion was partly on it)02:11
pittiogra: you'd need a network dbus connection between the two, or use some other means of communication02:11
pittiogra: but yes, it sounds doable02:11
mantiena-baltixtepsipakki: hi, do you have few minutes to talk about bug #89853 ?02:11
ubotuMalone bug 89853 in xorg-server "[regression]  7.2 broke vesa: "No matching modes found"" [High,Needs info]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/8985302:11
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pittisjoerd: ah, great; I can forward it to the list if you want me to02:11
sjoerdplease do 02:12
sjoerdIt's mostly me and mbiebl that worry about gvm, but it's good if the other guys can see it too02:12
ograpitti, why is that ? if the device is there (in form of the device node) and all data is in the hal db i shoudlnt need direct communication, do i?02:12
sjoerdWhich reminds me that i should make sure their on the list :)02:12
tepsipakkimantiena-baltix: shoot02:12
mantiena-baltixit seems this bug is solved only when I install both xserver-xorg-video-vesa_1.3.0-1ubuntu4.2_i386.deb and xserver-xorg-core_1.2.0-3ubuntu7.4_i386.deb packages from http://users.tkk.fi/~tjaalton/dpkg/ :)02:13
tepsipakkimantiena-baltix: that's just plain weird :)02:14
mantiena-baltix;)02:14
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tepsipakkiI'll ask ajax if the backtrace is of any use02:14
pittiogra: I mean, somehow the client has to tell the server hald about the new device?02:14
mantiena-baltixI just tested on Fujistu Amillo laptop with ATI Technologies Inc ATI Radeon XPRESS 200M 5955 (PCIE) video card02:15
mantiena-baltixtepsipakki: it boots fine on feisty final with ati driver, but doesn't boot if I change Driver "ati" to Driver "vesa"02:15
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ograpitti, yes, thats done already through an ssh tunnel (and sbalneav is working on an X based comm layer atm)02:16
mantiena-baltixBut when I install xserver-xorg-video-vesa_1.3.0-1ubuntu4.2_i386.deb and xserver-xorg-core_1.2.0-3ubuntu7.4_i386.deb packages from http://users.tkk.fi/~tjaalton/dpkg/ then X starts fine even with vesa on that laptop ;)02:16
ograindeed i need to get the data from the client to the server for hal-add-property :)02:17
ograi just wanted to know if its possible to cheat hal in this way ;)02:17
ograso we can move out all the ltspfs handling from gnomevfs to hal ... and Riddells users will be more happy in LTSP :)02:17
mantiena-baltixtepsipakki: should I write this in launchpad bug comments ?02:17
tepsipakkimantiena-baltix: you could do that, yes02:18
pittiogra: I didn't look at it in detail yet, but it should be possible to encapsulate this as a hal addon, yes02:19
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ogracool02:19
mantiena-baltixtepsipakki: ok, btw, could you build  xserver-xorg-core_1.2.0-3ubuntu7.4_i386.deb without dbg symbols ? I have very slow internet connection and getting build-deps for  xserver-xorg-core would take a lot of time :( Please...02:20
Mithrandirmantiena-baltix: no.02:20
Mithrandirpolicy tells you to build with debug symbols.02:20
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tepsipakkiMithrandir: actually, it's stripped by default02:21
tepsipakkithat version isn't02:21
pittierm, but they certainly should not appear in the debs by default02:21
Mithrandiryes, which is done by dh_strip or similar.02:22
tepsipakkiI tried to backport the -dbg package stuff from debian, but thought that this was easier for testing (just skip dh_strip)02:22
Mithrandirit should be _built_ with debug symbols.02:22
tepsipakkiah :)02:22
Mithrandirthey're just stripped out before the package is assembled.02:22
pittisjoerd: sent; and this time with an actual patch attachment (brown paperbag)02:24
mantiena-baltixtepsipakki: I really need smaller xserver-xorg-core package and it seems you already have build-deps for this, so, maybe you could build stripped package (like standard ubuntu package) for me ?02:25
sjoerdpitti: thanks!02:25
tepsipakkimantiena-baltix: it's built in pbuilder02:25
pittisjoerd: I merge gnome-mount now and do the same02:25
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sjoerdnice work :)02:26
tepsipakkimantiena-baltix: and you have downloaded it already?02:26
mantiena-baltixtepsipakki: I don't have build-deps02:27
tepsipakkimantiena-baltix: why do you need to build it again?02:28
mantiena-baltixtepsipakki: I need to make small testing CD for testing Ubuntu Feisty for local computer shop and they told me, that lots of laptops with ATI X1xxx video cards doesn't work02:28
tepsipakkimantiena-baltix: right.. I'll roll a new version for you02:29
mantiena-baltixtepsipakki: your xserver-xorg-core_1.2.0-3ubuntu7.4_i386.deb takes about 40 MB after installation, while standart takes only about 10 ..02:29
mantiena-baltixtepsipakki: thanks, Lithuanians will not forget you ;)02:30
tepsipakkiI guess there are a lot of X1xx users who don't forget me :P02:30
MirvI witnessed that ATI X1xxx Mobility doesn's start even in VESA mode. Go ATI!02:31
tepsipakki..with xorg-server-1.202:32
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mantiena-baltixtepsipakki: where you will upload stripped xserver-xorg-core_1.2.0-3ubuntu7.4_i386.deb packages ? On http://users.tkk.fi/~tjaalton/dpkg/ ?02:37
cjwatson_Hobbsee: don't see an obvious reason why you reassigned bug 109146 from debian-installer to ubiquityt02:37
ubotuMalone bug 109146 in ubiquity "unable to get anything installed" [Undecided,Needs info]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/10914602:37
cjwatson_-t02:37
cjwatson_(not that I want it moved back, but there's no evidence which of them it should be right now)02:37
Hobbseecjwatson_: oh was it debian-installer?  I thought it was the kde upgrader?02:37
cjwatson_"Binary package hint: debian-installer"02:38
Hobbseeor couldnt tell what the heck it was, or where it would be?02:38
Hobbseehmmm, point.02:38
cjwatson_er, it's the installer - either debian-installer or ubiquity02:38
tepsipakkimantiena-baltix: it'll be there, but 7.502:38
cjwatson_alternate => debian-installer, desktop => ubiquity02:38
Hobbseeah, right.  sorry, didnt know they were the same02:38
Hobbseecjwatson_: want me to change it back?02:38
Hobbseeahhh02:38
Hobbseeoops02:38
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cjwatson_no, leave it now, like I say there's no evidence which it is - was just wondering why you bothered :)02:38
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Hobbseecjwatson: thought debian-installer was some form of universe-y package which definetly didnt fit.  not sure why02:39
cjwatsond-i's definitely main :)02:39
Hobbseethought it was some similarly named thing that wasnt :P02:39
Hobbseebah.  didnt you drop d-i when you wrote ubiquity?  :P02:40
cjwatsoner, hell no ;)02:40
jsgotangcohaha02:40
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StevenKubiquity uses d-i, actually02:40
=== Hobbsee notes the :P
Hobbseecjwatson: this is what happens when i run out of chocolate.  strange things happen.02:41
Hobbseei believe it's the same as when humans run out of coffee.02:41
pittiHobbsee: Loving chocolate and hating coffee, I must belong to your species, then02:43
Hobbseepitti: hehe.  are you green?  or purple?02:43
Hobbseeand alien-like?02:43
robertj(here comes the furry talk again)02:44
StevenKHrrm, I'm related too.02:44
pittiHobbsee: rather brown, see my LP icon https://librarian.launchpad.net/7143516/Pittiplatsch-Kopf-64x64.png02:44
Hobbseerobertj: furry talk?02:44
Hobbseepitti: haha02:44
pittiHobbsee: I don't suppose you actually know this figure?02:45
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Hobbseepitti: not offhand no02:45
StevenKI think I've seen that some place before.02:45
StevenKIt's ringing a vague bell.02:45
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pittiit's 'Pittiplatsch', one of the main characters of a famous German evening show for kids02:46
pittiand my local nickname, of course02:46
TreenaksPittiplatz? You have an entire square of your own now? :P02:48
Hobbseeahhh02:48
tepsipakkimantiena-baltix: the package is ready02:49
StevenKpitti: Is it comparable to some other kids show, one that Hobbsee or I might know?02:49
TreenaksStevenK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi02:49
Treenaksuhr02:49
TreenaksStevenK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittiplatsch02:49
StevenKHeh02:49
mantiena-baltixtepsipakki: thanks02:49
StevenKAnd now that seems so obvious.02:49
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Hobbseeactually, i may have seen it, or part of it, or similar02:50
pittiTreenaks: of course, seen in Sydney: http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/tmp/martinplace-pittstreet.jpg02:50
Treenakspitti: cool :)02:50
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StevenKpitti: I bet you got a kick of that. :-)02:51
StevenKkick out of, even02:51
ion_pitti: Hehe02:51
Hobbseepitti: haha, yep02:51
mantiena-baltixtepsipakki: btw, will new xorg intel drivers (on  http://users.tkk.fi/~tjaalton/dpkg/ I've noticed 2.0.0-1ubuntu1) uploaded to ubuntu-backports ? 02:54
tepsipakkimantiena-baltix: remains to be seen02:55
pittispeaking about X drivers, 'deb http://mh21.piware.de/debian/ mh21 main' has packages for nouveau (amd64 packages only ATM)02:58
pitti^ for the adventurous testers02:58
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tepsipakkipitti: there are going to be drivers in debian experimental "soon"02:59
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pittitepsipakki: ah, sweet02:59
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pittihey mh2103:01
=== ogra kicks nfs4 ...
ograhrm :(03:02
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tepsipakkiogra: if you continue to have problems with it, you can ask on nfsv4@linux-nfs.org for help on the tricky details ;)03:03
pittitepsipakki: is there any concrete work already? mh21 put his git trees there as well, maybe this is of some help03:04
pittitepsipakki: he currently did a separate package for the kernel module; this would need to go into linux-source directly of course, but right now it's good enough for testing03:05
tepsipakkipitti: not that I know of, but it was discussed recently03:05
mh21tepsipakki: http://mh21.piware.de/git03:05
tepsipakkithere were two people who volunteered to maintain it03:05
tepsipakkimh21: you could mail debian-x about that :)03:06
tepsipakkiI'm off now ->03:06
ogratepsipakki, well, it seems a tad buggy to me ... my ltsp clients use to create tpmfses for every file thy need writeable ... intrestingly only a bunch of them is ther and a bunch isnt ...03:06
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ograseems everything mounting related changes completely with nfsroot in nfs403:07
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ograbut i cant find a scheme why some tmpfs mounts work and some dont :/03:08
StevenKRight. Now that my Feisty machine has booted with 2.6.17, to find out how to make 2.6.20 boot.03:10
StevenKAh ha. It wants irqpoll03:16
robertjare items included in universe considered "part of the normal operating system distribution" for licensing purposes?03:17
pittirobertj: we do not 'ship' those in the sense of 'push the bits to the users via CD'03:18
robertjpitti: so would linking against openssl be kosher only if it was included on the cd?03:20
pittirobertj: no, I don't think so03:21
pittirobertj: that distinction makes mainly sense for patent issues, not for GPL compatibility03:21
robertjpitti: the openssl faq seemed to indicate otherwise03:21
robertj"On many systems including the major Linux and BSD distributions, yes (the GPL does not place restrictions on using libraries that are part of the normal operating system distribution)."03:22
pittirobertj: ah; IANAL enough to interpret this properly, I'm afraid03:22
robertjpitti: debian-legal seemed to take a pretty strict stance against it in '01 or so, is their opinion gospel or does Canonical have its own suits?03:24
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pittirobertj: so far I didn't see anyone care in Ubuntu, but we generally follow Debian's lead except when we explicitly discuss things and decide to deviate for some good reasons03:25
robertjnetatalk is pretty useless as-is. No encrypted passwords, and no passwords longer than 8 characters03:25
pittiwe don't have 'our own suits' so far at least03:25
pittirobertj: it doesn't work with gnutls?03:26
robertjpitti: AFAIK no. Mandriva seemed to claim they linked against gnutls but I looked & didn't see that happening03:27
Keybukpersonally I think debian-legal are far too strict in this case03:28
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Demon012#ubuntu-motu03:28
Demon012oops03:28
pittineither we nor Debian are really consistent in that regard; e. g. a whole lot of GPL apps link against libpq5, which links against openssl03:29
robertjKeybuk: my suspicion is that for this particular case, rewriting would be cheaper than paying a decent lawyer to even look it over, but over the whole of main & universe that may not be true03:29
robertj(est. ~16hrs implementation by someone who had any prior experience in C)03:29
pittirobertj: I figure porting to gnutls should be much easier?03:30
robertjpitti: that is what I meant03:30
robertjpitti: I think there are some unimplemented features in the gnutls layer, mostly data structures03:30
Keybuka) libssl is a dependency of ubuntu-minimal, so any reasonable interpretation of "the normal operating system distribution" would appear to apply here03:31
Keybukb) the GPL doesn't cover dynamic linking (personal opinion :p)03:31
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robertjKeybuk: mind if I attach point a to a launchpad bug on this particular package03:32
iwjThe status of GPL-incompatible programs dynamically linked against GPL'd code is disputed.  Some (including Keybuk it seems) say that there is no problem.  Others (including me) say that it's forbidden unless the system library exception applies.03:32
Keybuk"attach point" ?03:32
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robertj<Keybuk> a) libssl is a dependency of ubuntu-minimal, so any reasonable interpretation of "the normal operating system distribution" would appear to apply here03:33
robertj b) the GPL doesn't cover dynamic linking (personal opinion :p)03:33
robertj(well just meant to be a) and not b) but anyway)03:33
Keybukrobertj: *shrug* it's not anything useful for a bug, just this developers opinion03:33
iwjBut NB that the system library exception (what robertj refers to above) definitely cannot help when it's all on the same CD.  (Whether it can help if the components are together in the archive is unclear.)03:33
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Keybukwhy does the system library exception not count if it's on the same CD?03:34
iwjThe system library exception is GPLv2 s3 2nd main para (after bullet (c)), 2nd half `However ...', right ?03:35
iwjBut it says `... unless that component [the GPL'd library]  itself accompanies the executable [the GPL-incompatible bit] '.03:35
Keybukright, and that only counts for distributing source code of one's program that derives from something included in the base03:35
Keybuksince we'd be distributing source code here, I don't see how that applies03:35
iwjSo if you put both on the same CD they `accompany' each other.03:35
Keybukthat paragraph allows you to copy and paste code from glibc into your program03:36
Keybukand then not distribute the source to that program03:36
iwjErr, distribution of just the source is not AFAICT restricted (unless some weird situation exists).  The potential violation is in the distribution of binaries.03:36
=== ion_ shivers at the grave accent used as a left single quotation mark. :-)
iwjKeybuk: That paragraph was originally intended to allow GPL'd code to be ported to systems with GPL-incompatible libcs.03:37
Keybukiwj: true, but it's also worded loosely enough to allow the opposite03:37
iwjion_: It's a left single quote too, in ASCII.  Just because ISO-646 isn't compatible with ASCII isn't my fault :-).03:38
Keybukit certainly doesn't apply to the OpenSSL case03:38
iwjKeybuk: Indeed it applies to the opposite.03:38
ion_ :-)03:38
Keybukiwj: IRC's standard character set is not ASCII or ISO-646 ;)03:38
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iwjKeybuk: UTF-8 is defined as the same as ISO-646 for the codepoint `.  And ISO-646 was allegedly compatible with ASCII.03:38
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iwjSo you newfangled people are supposed to be compatible with my usage.  Go fix your standard :-).03:39
Keybukiwj: UTF-8 is not the standard character set for IRC either03:39
iwjWhat character set do you claim to be using ?03:39
ion_So fonts should render ` as a ? What should one do when she actually wants a grave accent? :-)03:39
Spadsthe standard character set for IRC is now PETSCII.  I have decreed it.03:39
KeybukIRC uses a bizarre finish character set03:39
iwjI bet it claims to be compatible with ASCII for the codepoint `.03:39
Keybukthis is demonstrable by the fact you can message {PUPPETS}Gone instead of [PUPPETS] Gone03:40
HobbseeSpads: hah.  good luck with that03:40
ograroot@edubuntu:~# mount|grep fstab03:40
ogratmpfs on /etc/fstab type tmpfs (rw)03:40
ograroot@edubuntu:~# cat /etc/fstab03:40
ogra# UNCONFIGURED FSTAB FOR BASE SYSTEM03:40
ograroot@edubuntu:~# echo "blupp" >/etc/fstab03:40
Keybukerr, s/Gone/Gonzo/03:40
ograroot@edubuntu:~# cat /etc/fstab03:40
Keybuk:p03:40
ogra# UNCONFIGURED FSTAB FOR BASE SYSTEM03:40
ograGRRRR !!!!!03:40
ion_IRC originally used the bizarre Finnish character set, but AFAIR the spec doesnt actually specify anything else than that it is just octet streams.03:40
iwjFor OpenSSL you can make the system library exception apply if `that component' (eg, OpenSSL) doesn't accompany `the executable' (here, the GPL'd library).03:40
Keybukiwj: yes, but what good does the system library exception grant you?03:40
Keybukthe system library exception ONLY grants you the ability to not distribute sourece to either03:41
iwjKeybuk: It permits you to fail to licence the `whole work' (actual program + openssl + gpl lib) under GPLv2.03:41
Keybukiwj: no it doesn't03:41
Keybukit's very explicit in what it permits03:41
Keybuk However, as a03:41
Keybukspecial exception, the source code distributed need not include03:41
Keybukanything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary03:41
Keybukform) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the03:41
Keybukoperating system on which the executable runs, unless that component03:41
Keybukitself accompanies the executable.03:41
Keybuk-- 03:41
Keybukit permits you to not need to distribute the compiler, libc, etc. with your source03:42
Keybuk(headers for those)03:43
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iwj`The source code distributed need not include anything [OpenSSL]  that is normally distributed ... unless [OpenSSL]  accompanies the executable'03:43
Keybukno03:43
Keybukread the whole paragraph03:43
iwjI have read it (obviously).03:44
Keybukit defines "source code" immediately above it03:44
iwjYes.03:44
Keybukand what it defines it as is not compatible with [OpenSSL] 03:44
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iwjYou think the source to OpenSSL isn't part of the `source code for a work' ?03:44
geserSeveas: could you fix the LP url for Daniel at https://launchpad.net/~ubuntumembers/+poll/cc2007-dholbach/ ? the c and h are transposed03:44
Keybukyes03:44
iwjThat depends on what you think `work' is.03:44
Keybukunless you are arguing that OpenSSL is a "module contained" by the binary?03:45
iwjBut if you are right then the system library exception is irrelevant since you're home free anyway.03:45
iwjI contend that `the work' is libssl + /usr/bin/program + libc + libgplthing03:45
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KeybukI content that the GPL doesn't say that03:45
iwjYes, I know.03:45
KeybukThe source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for03:45
Keybukmaking modifications to it.  For an executable work, complete source03:45
Keybukcode means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any03:45
Keybukassociated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to03:45
Keybukcontrol compilation and installation of the executable.03:45
iwjYou said that earlier./03:46
=== ogra cries ...
iwjPlease stop pasting the GPL into channel.  I have it over -> there.03:46
ogramy OS ignores me :(03:46
Keybukso is OpenSSL a module it contains?03:46
iwjI asserted that the status of this situation was disputed, which you must agree with ?03:46
Keybukoh, I entirely agree it's disputed03:46
iwjAnd this dispute divides the two of us and I was carefully trying to avoid having to have it here.03:47
iwjBut I also asserted that the system library exception is no help except in some subtle cases.03:47
Keybukpersonally I believe that use of a library through its published interfaces cannot possibly be considered anything other than "use" of that library, so not covered by copyright03:47
iwjSure you must agree with that ?03:47
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iwjIn particular it is no help in this case.03:47
iwjThe reason you disagree with me is nothing to do with the system library exception.03:47
KeybukI don't think the system library exception even applies without my interpretation03:47
Keybukcorrect03:47
=== pygi created a special add-on to libburnia's GPL licence to cover linking
pygioh well03:48
iwjYou think the system library exception is pointless because the preconditions don't apply and I think it is useless because if the preconditions apply you usually find that the `accompany' bit bites you.03:48
siretartwhats the problem? cdrtools?03:48
Keybukbut I also disagree that even assuming the "traditional" application of the GPL to dynamic linking, that the system library exeception doesn't apply here anyway03:48
iwjYou disagree that it doesn't apply ?  Eh ?03:48
iwjDo you mean you think it applies or doesn't ?03:48
Keybuksince OpenSSL is none of the things listed in the paragraph where the exception to not distribute them is granted03:49
iwjI think you have misunderstood what you describe as `the "traditional" application of the GPL to dynamic linking'.03:49
Keybukno, I don't think I have03:49
pygisiretart: you've got a pm :)03:50
KeybukI think that if the GPL covers dynamic linking, then the work is inherently a derivation of OpenSSL03:50
Keybukso OpenSSL is a consituent part of the work03:50
iwjThe broad interpretation follows from the `work as a whole', 2nd main para of s2.03:50
Keybukso thus isn't covered by the exception, which is only for auxiliary pieces needed to build it03:51
iwjI argue that if you distribute /usr/bin/program + openssl + libc + libgpl then the _combination_ is a `work as a whole'.03:51
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iwjNow I agree that the wording isn't entirely clear and I can see that people might reasonably disagree.03:51
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KeybukI would agree there03:51
iwjBut if you agree with that, then `work' in s3 means all of those four parts together.03:51
Keybukand that those things are not covered by the exception03:51
iwjAnd OpenSSL is definitely contained in it.03:52
Keybukyes03:52
Keybukso work includes those parts03:52
iwjRight.03:52
Keybukand the exception doesn't cover those parts03:52
iwjOh, good, you seem to be agreeing with me now.  I mean, apart from the dispute about work as a whole.03:52
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iwjI would say that you could use the system library exception for openssl but only if you don't distribute thje four pieces together.03:53
iwjOr at least there are some combinations where it might apply.03:53
iwjEg, if you distribute only /usr/bin/program and rely on the system's libgpl and openssl.03:54
iwjIf `you' isn't the OS distributor then you're probably covered by the exception.03:54
Treenaks*brain hurts*03:54
iwjAnd AFAICT you can distribute /usr/bin/program+libgpl even.  That's just the same as the FSF were doing with Solaris shellutils, really.03:55
Keybukassuming you decide that OpenSSL is distributed "with" one of the major components like the compiler, or kernel, yes03:55
iwjYes.03:55
Keybukexcept then you get bitten because the compiler is distributed by the FTP archive03:55
Keybukso arguably anything on the FTP archive is distributed "with" the compiler03:55
iwjYes.03:56
iwjWhich is why this exception is really hard to use _for the OS vendor_ which is entirely the idea AIUI.03:56
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iwjIe, the os library exception doesn't help Debian or Ubuntu.03:56
Keybukok, it sounds like we were arguing the same thing at different points, with different language :)03:56
iwjGood :-).03:57
Treenaksit only helps debian's or ubuntu's users, if they recompile $program with ssl support03:57
iwjTreenaks: Right.03:57
Keybuk(of course, I believe the above conclusion is bullshit, but it helps to be able to argue from other people's stand points)03:57
iwjAnd random 3rd parties.03:57
Treenaks(which is teh suck, as I want ubuntu, not gentoo, for a reason)03:57
iwjKeybuk: Well, yes.  But it's worth considering because _if_ the os library exception were useful it might avoid having to worry about `work as a whole'.03:58
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Treenaks(I've been bitten by this thing quite a few times now.. *sigh* @ freeradius+{postgresql/libssl})03:58
robertjTreenaks: did you end up moving over to gnutls?03:59
iwjTreenaks: Welcome to politics, unfortunately.  Politics is about disagreements so obviously things turn out awkward.03:59
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iwjJust be glad we're relatively civilised and that you don't have swordsmen or thugs settling these arguments nowadays.03:59
jsgotangcolol04:00
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=== robertj yearns for the days when questions of linking could be resolved by the joust
Keybukthe sword seems somewhat more humane than the court04:00
Treenaksrobertj: freeradius + gnutls doesn't work, and still links in libssl through postgresql, which also doesn't quite work with gnutls, afaik04:00
KeybukTreenaks: I have a more fun one04:01
KeybukDebian haven't distributed a piece of my software because it "links with" OpenSSL04:01
TreenaksKeybuk: which piece of software?04:01
Keybuklive-f104:01
Treenaksthat still works? cool :)04:02
Keybukexcept live-f1 doesn't link with OpenSSL04:02
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Keybukit links with the GPL'd libneon04:02
Keybukwhich Debian happen to build linked against OpenSSL04:02
KeybukI offered a Debian-specific exception to allow linking against things linked with OpenSSL04:03
Keybukthey didn't like that idea much either :)04:03
Treenakswhich makes it debian-specific, which isn't allowed either.. argh :)04:03
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iwjWhy not NMU libneon to build against gnutls ? :-)04:04
iwj`fixes RC bug'04:04
root___exit04:05
Keybukbecause that breaks things, iirc04:05
root___quit04:05
iwjOh, how annoying.04:05
KeybukI had a fun suggestion04:05
Treenaksiwj: because it might conflict with other (BSD-licensed) packages, that are linked to libneon? :P04:05
Keybuksince it is generally believed that the GPL *doesn't* cover use of command-line programs04:05
Keybukwrite a program that exposes all of the OpenSSL API via a command-line tool04:05
TreenaksKeybuk: like.. 'openssl'!04:05
Keybukand "thunks" all usage of OpenSSL through that helper04:05
iwjMy laywers will see that dodge in court.04:05
Keybukthey might04:06
iwjWell, actually, they won't.  The Qt people already did it with dpkg and the FSF were wimps.04:06
Keybukexactly04:06
Keybukbecause the FSF already encountered this04:06
Keybukwhen someone had their proprietary debugger used by emacs ;)04:06
iwjI have no idea why the FSF were wimps.  I think it's because RMS is stuck in the 1970s when `program' meant `executable text with a single symbol table'.04:06
iwjKeybuk: They had this with GCC and Objective C, didn't they ?04:07
Keybukcould be04:07
iwjThey put the boot in there.  I don't think they've thought about these things clearly because (see above).04:07
KeybukI agree04:07
Keybukpersonally I think if you stick to the interfaces exposed by a library, then you're "using" not "deriving"04:08
Keybukand if you add your own interfaces to satisfy your program, you're clearly deriving04:08
Keybuklikewise for command-line apps04:08
TreenaksKeybuk: what about _using _internal _functions()04:08
iwjTBPH I wouldn't be at all surprised if a court decided that Ubuntu was a `work as a whole'.04:08
iwjWhich would be quite a PITA.04:08
KeybukTreenaks: internal functions are arguably not part of the published interface, so derivation, depending on author preference04:08
Keybukiwj: quite04:08
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iwjI think that's the plain meaning of the text but custom and practice dictate otherwise.  Which leaves grey areas, well, grey.04:09
iwjThe previous GPLv3 draft had a much better approach to this IIRC.  Unfortunately the latest one is an enormous mess.04:09
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[knap] can anyone take a look at this bug report related to alsa? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/alsa-utils/+bug/9288904:34
ubotuMalone bug 92889 in alsa-utils "Low sound volume" [Undecided,Confirmed]  04:34
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crimsun[knap] : a fix for that has been committed (some time ago, in fact - Wed Apr 4 23:50:32 2007 -0400)04:40
crimsun[knap] : it's also incorrectly filed against alsa-utils, but I'll triage it.04:40
[knap] crimsun i first noticied this bug in feitsy herd5 now i'm using feitsy final and this bug still exists04:41
crimsun[knap] : that's because the fix is not present in the kernel shipped with 7.04. It will be in a post-release kernel update.04:41
[knap] ok, can i do anything to fix it till the new kernel is shipped?04:42
crimsun[knap] : pastebin the output from ``lspci -vvn'' for me, and tell me the url04:42
[knap] ok04:43
crimsun[knap] : also, let's migrate to #ubuntu - this channel is strictly for development, not support.04:43
[knap] ok04:43
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pittiseb128, Riddell: now that we have avahi by default, do you see any reason to keep the control center patches for disabling/enabling it?04:49
pittiseb128, Riddell: I'm merging avahi and wonder whether it is worth the trouble to keep enable_avahi and check_avahi04:49
seb128pitti: no04:49
Riddellpitti: might people not want an easy way to turn it off?04:50
seb128Riddell: do you have a services manager with KDE?04:50
pittiRiddell: you can still turn it off in /etc/default/avahi, question is why normal people would want to04:50
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Riddellseb128: yes, that's a good alternative 04:54
Riddellpitti: I don't mind really04:55
pittiRiddell, seb128: ok, so let's make all our lives a bit easier and just drop this, shall we?04:56
seb128pitti: WFM04:56
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jwendellseb128, hi!04:58
seb128hey jwendell04:58
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jwendellseb128, can i set my repositories to gutsy in order to keep my work on a up-to-date system?04:59
seb128yes you can04:59
seb128it's not going to be stable though05:00
seb128lot of things are going to change quickly once it's open and we start syncs on Debian and new uploads ;)05:00
pittinow with etch being out of the door, the unstable merge will bring some new good (and bad) crack :)05:00
ograyeah05:01
Riddellpitti: ok05:02
hungerWhen is the merge about to begin?05:02
=== hunger is *booooorrrrreddd* since his box stopped auto-breaking each morning;-)
=== pitti is already merging happily and stacking uploads on chinstrap
hungerSo when will g* hit the archive? After your conference I guess?05:03
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ograhunger, break it manually ? 05:09
ogradont always rely on us to brek your box please !05:09
ogra*break05:09
zulhunger: do something interesting like take the ram out of the box and see if it boots05:11
hungerogra: You are the professionals! I can only break stuff in a pretty amateurish way. And besides: If I break it, I know where to look to fix stuff:-)05:11
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ograhunger, just post your IP and ssh credential for your box ... then :P05:13
pygiogra: you don't even need more then IP :P05:13
hungerogra: I might use unstable ubuntu distributions on a "production box", but I am not that stupid!05:14
Mithrandirhunger: we had a small hiccup with gcc.  Assuming that builds fine we're looking at opening gutsy properly on Wednesday, I think.05:14
ograheh05:14
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Mithrandirmaybe a bit earlier, but realistically not.05:14
pygiyay, by then I should have packages ready  :-D05:15
muszekhi... can someone please tell me where is Ubuntu Open Week held?  Some IRC channel?05:15
ograyes, should be written on the wikipage05:15
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pittimuszek: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek05:15
muszekpitti, ogra: it's not written there05:16
harrisonymuszek: /j #ubuntu-classroom05:16
pittimuszek: 'joining in'05:16
harrisonyand /j #ubuntu-classroom-chat NOW! jono is talking as we speek05:16
muszekharrisony: thanks05:16
harrisony*speak05:16
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ogramuszek, its written here :) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules05:18
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muszekogra: yep, I missed that.  Thanks and sorry.05:18
=== hunger hopes that firehol will get fixed in gutsy. That feisty breaks it is extremly annoying.
ogra(behind the bold link that says "please read" :) on the other page)05:18
sharmsthe openweek wiki entry is not intuitive at all05:20
sharmsit would be much better to have the irc address on the main page05:20
sharmssince inevitably everyone needs it05:20
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ograwell, the whole text of the "please read" page should go on the first page right at the top imho05:21
ograbut jono will have had his reasons to put it like that 05:22
sharmsthats what I figured so I left it alone05:22
ogradid the old mozilla get dropped completely in feisty ? 05:24
LaserJockI believe so05:24
ograsbalneav, ^^^05:24
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ogracould some KDE user check if its ture that gpm breaks kde like described here ?: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2007-April/112362.html 05:36
ogra*true05:36
nixternalI will ogra 05:36
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ograthanks05:37
=== nixternal installs ubuntu-desktop (grrr eww) :p
nixternalso the problem is, gnome-power-manager working/trying to work in kde, now I wonder if Guidance is also trying to work at the same time05:38
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ograergh05:41
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ograyou could have gnome with just installing g-p-m :)05:41
ograg-p-m adds itself to /etc/xdg/autostart ... i assume KDE reads that05:42
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sbalneavLaserJock: Who must I bribe to get it put back in Universe?05:45
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LaserJocksbalneav: man, all about the bribery ;-)05:45
sbalneavI am willing to offer much beer and meat.05:45
harrisonyand beer05:45
LaserJocksbalneav: maybe shoot an email to ubuntu-motu with the reasons you need it.05:46
sbalneavubuntu-motu@ubuntu.com?05:46
LaserJocklists.ubuntu.com05:46
sbalneavok05:46
poningrusbalneav: gnomefreak is working on getting seamonkey uploaded05:46
sbalneavI'll have to subscibe, I suspect05:47
gnomefreaknot atm im not05:47
poningrukeep in mind after 1.7.3 support for mozilla suite was dropped by mofo05:47
poningruor I guess not?05:47
poningruwth05:47
gnomefreaki will be uploading it as soon as i can05:47
poningrugnomefreak: is anyone working on that?05:47
gnomefreakponingru: i have to respin it for gutsy first it may be a couple of weeks05:47
gnomefreakim upgrading my chroot atm05:47
gnomefreakponingru: there are some merges that need to be done before iceape shows up in gutsy05:48
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poningruoy ve05:49
poningruagain with the iceape05:49
=== poningru looks at asac
gnomefreakponingru: thats what it will be05:49
poningruyeah yeah I know05:49
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asacponingru: so what is your point?05:52
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groo_hi/2 all, any ubuntu dev awake? :)06:16
nixternalogra: OK, I have it setup, and I don't see gnome-power-manager running at in when booted into Kubuntu06:16
nixternalI wonder if it is when I might switch users, and have one logged into KDE and one into GNOME06:16
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groo_anyone is able to add a usb epson printer with kprinter?06:18
groo_kprinter has the local printer greyed out :(06:18
nixternalgroo_: you have stumbled upon a devel channel, for support you need to try out #kubuntu or #ubuntu06:19
nixternalour devs are currently taking naps after the Feisty release :)06:19
Zoberhey i know this isnt the right chat for this, but i am desperate need of assistance with VB6 for a final exam/project.  Can anyone help me with MDI forms in VB6 please?06:19
ogranixternal, pfft, naps are for wimps ... we prepeare to break the world atm :)06:20
pittiZober: this is about as far away from ubuntu development as you can get06:20
groo_nixternal: its a develop problem.. usb printer support is broken, also the libgphoto timeout is set too low (500ms)...06:20
asacZober: ... this is not a wrong place to ask that, but a *bad* place06:20
nixternalogra: I am waiting to break the world06:20
nixternalpitti: hahaha, I froze, I didn't know how to respond06:20
Zoberi cant figure out how to define form sizes for MDI child objects, it seems to define them based on the size of the MDI form06:20
ZoberI know guys, i am so sorry, the VB channel is lazy and no one knows what they are talking about06:20
pittiZober: try using glade instead :)06:21
ZoberI promise im normally an all out linux guy, but this is for a class i am required to take and VB6 is as retarded a language as can be06:21
BenCHow do I request that a package in mom be reverted and sycned directly with debian, trashing all of our ubuntu changes?06:22
Zober>_< Professor knows nothing about any other programming other than VB so he forced us all to use VB6 to write a final project >_<06:22
ograyeah, gtk/glade works fine on windows i heard06:22
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thomZober: please stop, you're so far off topic it's not funny06:22
ograpython as well ...06:22
nixternalZober: I have to use VB.NET for a class I am taking, so I understand the grief06:23
harrisony!offtopic06:23
ubotu#ubuntu is the Ubuntu support channel, #ubuntu+1 supports the development version of Ubuntu and #ubuntu-offtopic is for random chatter. Welcome!06:23
Zobernixternal, have you had to deal with MDI forms? and child objects?06:23
nixternal#ubuntu-offtopic and we can chat06:23
Zoberok, once again guys sorry to ask questions so off topic06:24
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cjwatsonBenC: requestsync(1)06:44
cjwatsonexcept maybe not so much with the (1) since it has no man page. /me glares at pitti06:45
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BenCcjwatson: I was just about to say :) thanks06:45
cjwatsonBenC: in any case, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SyncRequestProcess06:45
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keescookcjwatson: the publisher is on automatic again?  (i.e. will security updates go through without me needing to bug someone?)06:55
pitticjwatson: manpage> *cough*, noted06:56
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cjwatsoncjwatson@drescher:~$ sudo -u lp_publish crontab -l | grep cron.daily07:26
cjwatson3 * * * * /srv/launchpad.net/codelines/current/cronscripts/publishing/cron.daily07:26
cjwatsonkeescook: ^-- yes07:26
keescookcjwatson: okay, thanks.  :)07:27
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Seveasgeser, lp sez: Only polls that are not yet opened can be edited. As soon as a poll opens it can't be edited anymore.08:26
robertjiwj: so err, I read the scrollback, went home, took a nap, reread the scrollback, and it makes a bit of sense...so is there a consensus on whether we can link against libopenssl if its not shipped on the CD?08:27
robertj(it being the program linking against it, we assume openssl will be on the cd)08:28
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Mithrandirrobertj: we ship DVDs too, so please don't assume anything based on what happens to be on the CDs today.08:29
robertjMithrandir: well that could be fixed by having an alternate version of the package available in multiverse right?08:30
Mithrandirrobertj: no, if you have two free programs with incompatible licences where one links to the other it's undistributable, not non-free.08:31
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robertjMithrandir: I think its a bit more complicated than that here, read the scroll back from 9:17-10:0808:33
robertj(EST)08:33
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XOPUBUNTU UR MUM08:34
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Mithrandiroops08:36
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Mithrandirthere08:36
=== mc44 ducks
Mithrandirrobertj: why do you think so?08:36
psusithese days X internally handles fonts instead of using the font server right?08:37
Mithrandirpsusi: lots of apps uses client-side fonts, yes.08:37
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psusido gnome apps render true type fonts themselves rather than have the X server render them?  and non X apps like emacs just let the X server render the non true type fonts?08:38
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divrapierhello. can a developer guess, why ubuntu 6.0.6 wont boot, and stop after selecting 'start or install' on a pentiumD805 with asus p5b?08:38
mrsnoim not a developer but problems with the p965 chipset most likely divrapier 08:39
mrsnosupport questions aren't meant for here really so check in #ubuntu  , but dapper doesn't have a new enough kernel to boot 100% with those chipsets to the best of my knowledge08:40
Mithrandirpsusi: yes, AIUI.08:40
harrisonydivrapier: #ubuntu08:40
sharmsshould I file a bug on xorg for a memory leak?08:40
sharms 4923 root      15   0  916m 768m  18m S    5 37.9 342:52.82 Xorg          08:40
psusiI see... hrm....08:40
psusisharms: what makes you think it is leaking?08:41
sharmsnot sure intended behavior is to take up 3/4 a gig of memory?08:41
sharmscall me crazy..08:41
Chipzzsharms: you're crazy08:41
psusido you have a half gig of video ram?  a leak means it grows over time08:41
Chipzzsharms: those numbers are hardly accurate08:41
Mithrandirsharms: "X leaks memory" would be a useless bug anyway, you need to spend time to track down what causes a leak, for instance.08:42
sharmsChipzz: what do you suggest I use?08:42
Chipzzerrr08:42
Chipzzwhat are these tools called08:42
Chipzzthere are definately tools that will give you a better idea08:42
Chipzzbut relying on top is stupid08:42
Mithrandirvalgrind with various skins, pmap.08:43
Chipzzand you're very likely to be plain incorrect when you rely on numbers from top to make such a statement ;P08:43
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Chipzzwhich is not to say X doesn't leak memory, it may very well do so; but most likely not for the reasons you think it is leaking memory08:44
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sharmsthen I should file a bug against top, since nowhere in the manpage does it say ignore information top provides?08:44
robertjMithrandir: if I'm following the line of discussion properly, since openssl is customarily distributed with ubuntu as a dependency of -minimal it might fall under the system library exception08:45
psusitop is fine... it's just that most people panic when they see X using a lot of ram like you just did, when most of it is simply the video ram on the card08:45
Chipzzsharms: no you shouldn't08:45
Chipzzsharms: there is no bug08:45
Chipzz(most likely)08:45
Chipzzsharms: but for example open gnome system monitor and take a look there08:45
Chipzzit will give you very different figures08:46
psusihuh?  they should give the same numbers?08:46
Chipzzpsusi: gnome system monitor is showing you different things, hence different numbers08:46
sharmsgnome-system-monitor provides the same information as top.08:46
Chipzzpsusi: gnome system monitor is showing you "Writable Memory", which *is* what you actually care about08:46
psusiaye08:46
Chipzzsharms: no it does not08:47
sharmsChipzz: how so? I am looking at it right now.08:47
Chipzzsharms: gnome system monitor gives you writable memory, while top gives you total memory08:47
psusiit says it is showing resident memory, which should be rss08:47
sharmsI am looking at the RSS field in top and the memory field on gnome-system-monitor08:48
ChipzzRSS is 69MB here; writable memory is 59MB08:48
psusithey agree for me too08:48
Mithrandirrobertj: and it could easily enough be argued that all packages in Ubuntu accompany each other.08:49
psusithat's fine chipz, but by default g-s-m doesn't show writable memory by default, it shows resident memory08:49
psusiwhich is the same as the res column in top08:49
robertjMithrandir: although OpenSSL's faq seems to indicate that it doesn't support that reading08:50
sharmsMy writable memory is 749MB.08:51
Chipzzthere were actually patches to gsm for "easier memory profiling"; for example, taking into account memory that different instances of the same library share etc08:51
Mithrandirrobertj: doesn't support my reading or your reading?08:51
Mithrandirrobertj: it is in any case irrelevant since they're not the ones who have software licenced under the GPL so they can hardly interpret the GPL on behalf of others.08:51
robertjMithrandir: "On many systems including the major Linux and BSD distributions, yes (the GPL does not place restrictions on using libraries that are part of the normal operating system distribution)."08:52
Chipzzsharms: do you know what mmap'ing is for example?08:52
psusiChipzz: howso?  pick one process to bill for the memory and don't count it in the others?08:52
sharmsChipzz: yes but I don't see how you are helping this situation08:53
sharmsI would rather wait until someone with more xorg specific experience can clarify things08:53
psusisharms: typically the problem is that the x server mmaps the video ram, so it looks like it is using a lot of memory, when most of it is on the video card, not main ram08:54
Chipzzsharms: the video memory is mmap'ed into the Xorg server for example08:54
Chipzzwhich is why it appears to consume so much memory08:54
johanbrsharms: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xorg/2007-March/022219.html08:55
Mithrandirrobertj: at least I, and I believe the other archive administrators agree with me, that we work along the stricter interpretation I showed above.08:56
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sharmsjohanbr: I understand that, but this guys RSS is 56m, mine is 769m08:57
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sharmsand I can guarantee my card does not have 700 megs of memory08:58
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sharmsI will assume since I have another ati card in the system next to me with the same software versions that is not exhibiting this behavior that it is most likely the fglrx driver, since the other system is using the open source radeon driver09:01
psusisharms: how much does it use after a reboot is the important question09:01
psusias an aside, I am very pleased that the feisty livecd correctly supports 3d accel on my radeon x850 with the open source driver09:02
psusimesa seems to be making progress09:03
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sharmsok09:04
sharmsX uses 26m RSS at start09:04
sharmscan anyone repaste my lines from above with the last numbers?09:04
psusioh wow....09:06
psusisharms> 4923 root 15 0 916m 768m  18m S 5 37.9 342:52.82 Xorg 09:06
sharmsthanks09:06
psusithat's one hell of a leak09:07
sharmsyeah I will see if i can reproduce it09:07
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deephi 09:09
deepI want to add a new package to Ubuntu09:10
deepwso2wsas is a java based middleware server 09:10
deepanybody out there . .?09:13
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ivoksdeep: #ubuntu-motu09:13
deepivoks:thanks09:14
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=== psusi curses imake
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blackskadhi all, is there anyone here from the desktop team?09:21
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ProN00bcongrats to the devs, upgrade to fawn was really painless09:28
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Arbyoops09:38
Arbysorry wrong chan09:38
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psusiwas there a significant change to fonts between dapper and edgy?  like their format changed or something?10:06
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