[12:05] <Merchelo> thanks everyone
[12:05] <dabaR> j
[12:05] <KalleDK_Lap> See you tommorow
[12:05] <rulus> thanks poolie and jam-laptop for the great session
[12:07] <bertux> thanks poolie and jam-laptop for the great session ;)
[12:07] <bertux> bye, see you on thursday
[12:09] <festival_gai1> bye
[12:48] <AndrewB> :)
[01:01] <delmorep> hi
[01:04] <KalleDK_Lap> Your a little late or quite early for a hi :P
[01:22] <erigazio> hey!... I have a problem with amarok... it won't play any mp3, i all ready installed the restricted package...
[01:27] <KalleDK_Lap> erigazio join #ubuntu
[05:03] <delmorep> hi
[05:11] <Nergar> hello?
[05:32] <Jack313> helo
[05:32] <Jack313> we want more ubuntu talks!
[05:32] <tonyyarusso> lol, soon
[05:34] <Toma-> Jack313 QUESTION: What will you be talking about? :)
[05:34] <SportChick> nw 7
[05:35] <Jack313> Toma: today we will be talking about KDE + Beryl
[05:35] <Jack313> Let me start out saying , my work with ubuntu
[05:35] <Jack313> 20:08]  <-- tbodine has left this channel ("Would there be a sequel?").
[05:35] <Jack313> [20:08]  <crdlb> ...and it's back up
[05:35] <Jack313> [20:12]  <-- Smegzor has left this server (" Like VS.net's GUI?  Then try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-").
[05:35] <Jack313> [20:21]  --> micahcowan has joined this channel (n=micah@ubuntu/member/micahcowan).
[05:35] <Jack313> [20:25]  --> Toma- has joined this channel (n=e17@203-59-13-104.dyn.iinet.net.au).
[05:35] <Jack313> [20:34]  <-- ryaku has left this server (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
[05:35] <Jack313> [20:34]  --> ryaku has joine
[05:35] <Jack313> fuck
[05:35] <tonyyarusso> !paste
[05:35] <ubotu> pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
[05:35] <Jack313> sorry,
[05:35] <Toma-> youre not a very good speaker :<
[05:35] <Jack313> tonyyarusso, i know, i acciently hit paste
[05:35] <Jack313> :X
[05:36] <tonyyarusso> been there
[05:36] <Toma-> Jack313 QUESTION: Do you have to copy and paste in the channel?
[05:36] <tonyyarusso> lol Toma-
[05:36] <Toma-> :)
[05:36] <Jack313> Toma: Yes!
[05:36] <Jack313> haha
[05:36] <micahcowan> Toma- lol
[05:36] <tbodine> Thank you micahcowan.
[05:36] <tbodine> :\
[05:36] <Jack313> First off, let me say my contribution to ubuntu has been enormrous, i practically wrote the kernels , and KDE
[05:37] <tbodine> Yeah, me too.
[05:37] <Jack313> I will now be taking questions
[05:37] <tbodine> Jack313, QUESTION: What's your favourite colour?
[05:38] <john> QUESTION: So how awesome do you think it felt to work for you?
[05:38] <john> like, everyone was fighting to work for free for you, because of your super programming skills.
[05:38] <Jack313> tbodine, probably orange, hence ubuntu is themed orange
[05:39] <Jack313> wel, i didnt have anyone working below me, or anyone else
[05:39] <Jack313> i did everything myself,
[05:39] <john> I mean, when you wrote the kernel, we were all like "wow! a kernel in a week!".
[05:39] <Nergar> QUESTION: Are u high?
[05:39] <Toma-> Jack313: QUESTION: What is Pi equal to?
[05:39] <john> but then you wrote KDE in one night on a full sheet of acid.
[05:40] <john> that's when we knew to stick around
[05:40] <Jack313> Toma=415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679
[05:40] <Toma-> lies!
[05:40] <Jack313> err Toma=3.415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679
[05:40] <Toma-> thats better
[05:40] <Nergar> lol
[05:40] <Jack313> haha
[05:41] <tbodine> Jack313, QUESTION: As a follow up to Toma-'s question that you answered so horribly, there are at least another three decimal places, what is e equal to?
[05:41] <Nergar> 3.415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679...
[05:41] <Jack313> 2.718
[05:41] <tbodine> Jack313, wrong.
[05:41] <tbodine> I have no more trust in you, master programmer.
[05:41] <Jack313> I have a question, if you guys are sooo smart, WHAT i equal to????????/
[05:41] <Jack313> huh
[05:41] <Jack313> ?
[05:41] <Jack313> bring it
[05:42] <tbodine> (And Pi isn't even close to 3.4159 . . .)
[05:42] <Toma-> Jack313: I = Toma-.
[05:42] <Jack313> lol damn it, i mean 3.14 :(
[05:42] <tbodine> (It's 3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510582 . . . )
[05:42] <Jack313> i know
[05:42] <tbodine> Jeez.
[05:42] <tbodine> You have failed me, Jack313!
[05:42] <Jack313> hey
[05:42] <Jack313> listen
[05:42] <Jack313> tell me what i =?
[05:43] <Jack313> yeh, thats what i thought, you cant
[05:43] <tbodine> I == tbodine.
[05:43] <Jack313> no i = sqrt(-1)
[05:43] <Toma-> U = Jack313
[05:43] <Jack313> now whos the elite program
[05:43] <Jack313> er
[05:43] <tbodine> Most elite programmers can spell programmer..
[05:43] <Jack313> LISTEN, ALL QUESTIONS IN UBUNTU-CLASSROOM-CHAT
[05:43] <Jack313> i am now setting +m
[05:43] <Toma-> QUESTION: What is the sound of one hand clapping?
[05:44] <tbodine> ...
[05:44] <Jack313> who
[05:45] <Jack313> tonyyarusso, im trying to present, but these people are not very courteous
[05:45] <tbodine> Sorry, I'm done.
[05:45] <Toma-> tonyyarusso: this is the equivalent of chit-chat before class starts :D
[05:45] <tonyyarusso> Toma-: That never happens.  ;)
[05:45] <Jack313> :D
[05:58] <Toma-> QUESTION: If a number of bugs can be fixed by simply installing the latest version, can you close it with "FIXED UPSTREAM"?
[05:59] <tonyyarusso> Toma-: example?
[06:00] <Toma-> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/edgy/+source/librsvg
[06:00] <Toma-> :)
[06:00] <Toma-> hang on
[06:01] <Toma-> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/librsvg/+bug/76435
[06:02] <tonyyarusso> !info librsvg feisty
[06:02] <ubotu> Package librsvg does not exist in feisty
[06:02] <tonyyarusso> err
[06:02] <Toma-> !info librsvg2-2
[06:02] <ubotu> librsvg2-2: SAX-based renderer library for SVG files (runtime). In component main, is optional. Version 2.16.0-0ubuntu2 (feisty), package size 127 kB, installed size 300 kB
[06:02] <Toma-> http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/librsvg/2.16/librsvg-2.16.1.changes
[06:03] <tonyyarusso> Toma-: You would close the bug once the upstream version is in Ubuntu.
[06:03] <Toma-> ahh right
[06:03] <tonyyarusso> You may or may not be able to get it fixed in Feisty - poke the maintainer to see, otherwise Gutsy.
[06:03] <Toma-> yeh ive been told its in deb unstable
[06:04] <Toma-> so itll be in gutsy, but theres a diff available for 2.16.0 aswell to patch all those bugs :(
[06:04] <tonyyarusso> It's in main, so there's a pretty decent chance of getting it updated in Feisty yet
[06:05] <Toma-> cool. ill test the other bugs and if theyre fixed by it, ill kick and scream a little louder.
[06:06] <Toma-> launchpad reports the maintainer doesnt use launchpad :|
[06:09] <tonyyarusso> Toma-: try dholbach then (last uploader)
[06:10] <Jack313> hmm
[06:10] <Jack313> does mounting images use disk space?
[06:11] <Nergar> no
[06:11] <Jack313> i was just testing you guys
[06:11] <Jack313> good job
[06:27] <srikanthssn> !pastebin
[06:27] <ubotu> pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
[07:27] <lau> hello/quit
[08:25] <poningru> heh
[09:30] <tonytiger> popey: You've got /hours/ to go yet
[09:31] <tonytiger> :)
[09:32] <Jack313> hmm
[09:32] <Jack313> popey
[09:32] <Jack313> you doing a presenttaion
[09:32] <popey> i am
[09:32] <Jack313> give us a sneek peak
[09:32] <Jack313> :D
[09:32] <popey> heh
[09:33] <popey> http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/ there, sneak peek
[09:33] <popey> :)
[09:33] <Jack313> whats this , a speech on dual booting/installing ubuntu?
[09:34] <popey> no
[09:34] <popey> check the open week schedule
[09:34] <popey> which is conveniently in the /topic of this very channel :)
[09:35] <popey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screencasting
[09:35] <Jack313> ah, those are cool
[09:35] <ajmitch> popey: started on the talk yet?
[09:35] <popey> yus
[09:35] <ajmitch> wonderful :)
[09:35] <popey> about an hour ago :)
[09:36] <popey> pondering how much to do
[09:36] <ajmitch> about 40 minutes worth :)
[09:36] <popey> some talks so far have had 15-20 mins talk, then questions, others have been 5 mins
[09:36] <tonytiger> Wow, so much more preparation than your LUG talks :)
[09:36] <popey> oh jeez
[09:36] <ajmitch> leave time for Q&A
[09:36] <popey> hahah
[09:37] <popey> i think i spent about 10 mins preparing for the LUG talk on VirtualBox
[09:37] <popey> did it show? :)
[09:37] <tonytiger> Your one slide?
[09:37] <tonytiger> No.
[09:37] <tonytiger> The one slide that you had thoughtfully CC licenced?
[09:37] <popey> \o/ LUGs
[09:37] <popey> yes, I am good like that
[09:37] <tonytiger> The one slide that had your name on it. :)
[09:37] <tonytiger> And the name of the talk.
[09:37] <tonytiger> And nothing else.
[09:37] <tonytiger> Other than the CC licence info. :)
[09:37] <popey> it had a background image iirc?
[09:37] <popey> a tux
[09:37] <tonytiger> Oooh, kudos.
[09:38] <ajmitch> sounds like a lot of thought went into it
[09:38] <tonytiger> we need sarcasm.popey.com
[09:38] <popey> oh a lot of *thought* went in
[09:38] <popey> we do
[09:38] <popey> http://handbag.popey.com/ will do for now
[09:38] <Jack313> hmm, will the next kubuntu release have kde 4?
[09:38] <popey> Jack313: is kde 4 out or due out?
[09:38] <tonytiger> :)
[09:38] <Jack313> due out
[09:39] <ajmitch> due out at approx the same time as gutsy
[09:39] <ajmitch> so I really doubt that kde4 will be the default desktop
[09:39] <popey> 23rd oct 2007
[09:39] <popey> http://techbase.kde.org/Schedules/KDE4/4.0_Release_Schedule
[09:39] <ajmitch> yes, and gutsy should be out on the 18th
[09:40] <popey> heh
[09:40] <ajmitch> so it'd have to be frozen 3-4 weeks beforehand at the latest
[09:40] <popey> that's a "no" then
[09:40] <ajmitch> pretty much
[09:40] <Jack313> poo
[09:41] <popey> tonytiger: what pic on sarcasm though?
[09:42] <tonytiger> Hmm, give me a min.
[09:42] <tonytiger> :)
[09:44] <tonytiger> http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q29/sunangelhl/sarcasm.jpg
[09:44] <tonytiger> heh :)
[09:44] <popey> hah
[09:47] <tonytiger> http://www.leonardrossiter.com/reginaldperrin/36004.jpg
[09:49] <popey> http://sarcasm.popey.com/
[09:49] <popey> i really should implement dynamic pictures
[09:56] <tonytiger> popey: nice :)
[09:56] <tonytiger> A productive morning already.
[10:01] <popey> \o/
[10:02] <Jack313> you know what would be an awesome talk, something on must have apps for ubuntu :D
[10:11] <popey> surely they are already installed, evolution, firefox.. etc :)
[10:11] <Jack313> well besides obvious ones
[10:11] <Jack313>  :P
[10:12] <Demon012> something that should be discussed imo is are we using the correct default apps with ubuntu
[10:13] <Demon012> for example exaile imo hands down beats rythmbox (that's my opinion and exaile should be left for a bit yet as it is pretty new but maybe gutsy+1)
[10:14] <Demon012> music management / players
[10:14] <Jack313> ah
[10:14] <Jack313> well the coolest software i got soo far is beryl of course
[10:14] <Demon012> both also are able to put music on iPod's
[10:14] <jdzitro> what featues does exaile have that rythmbox doesn't?
[10:15] <Demon012> dynamic playlist generation
[10:15] <Demon012> that's the first one that comes to mind
[10:15] <jdzitro> can you explain this?
[10:15] <Demon012> yeah sure
[10:15] <jdzitro> like you put in categories and it generates from your library?
[10:15] <Demon012> will do my best anyway as I am not overly sure how it works all in all
[10:16] <Demon012> you add all your music to your library and based on ratings which I guess it generates while your listening it picks the next track for you
[10:17] <Demon012> I have noticed it uses a rating system for each track and if you skip the track before you get over half way through it it will decrease the rating on it
[10:17] <Demon012> which makes it less likely to play that track again
[10:17] <jdzitro> oh, ok.
[10:18] <Demon012> I also believe it must get information off the internet about what tracks are similar to what your listening to atm as it does a pretty good job at it
[10:18] <jdzitro> what about as far as interface? i enjoy using rhythmbox, but i find the interface a little troublesome.
[10:18] <Demon012> interface is much cleaner than rhythmbox's
[10:18] <Demon012> that was the first thing I thought when I saw rhythmbox... yuck =)
[10:19] <jdzitro> im going to install exaile right now and take a look.
[10:19] <Demon012> would you like a screenshot jdzitro?
[10:20] <Demon012> jdzitro: get the one off of the exaile site not the one from the repos
[10:20] <Demon012> the one in the repos is old
[10:20] <jdzitro> i just used automatix2...
[10:20] <Demon012> oh ok cool not sure where it gets it from
[10:21] <Demon012> morning `23meg
[10:21] <jdzitro> its ver. 0.2.8 if that helps
[10:21] <Demon012> yeah that's the old version
[10:21] <Demon012> 0.2.9 is the current
[10:21] <elkbuntu> !automatix
[10:21] <ubotu> Automatix2 is a proprietary script that tries to install some software, and often fails and breaks systems. We don't provide support for it, and we strongly discourage its use. Problems caused by Automatix are often hard to track and solve, and it might sometimes be easier to !install a fresh copy of Ubuntu. See also !WorksForMe
[10:22] <Demon012> mm does that work for exaile
[10:22] <Demon012> !exaile
[10:22] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about exaile - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[10:22] <Demon012> nop =/
[10:22] <`23meg> mroning
[10:22] <Demon012> jdzitro: http://www.exaile.org/trac/wiki/Releases
[10:22] <Demon012> that is where you can get the latest
[10:22] <Jack313> oh yeh, i got automatix2 , its pretty nice
[10:22] <popey> :( automatix2
[10:22] <Jack313> are the fbi gona come to my house cause i downloaded the dvd codecs
[10:23] <Jack313> :p
[10:23] <Demon012> lol Jack313 I doubt it
[10:23] <Jack313> not that i did, just entertaining the possibility
[10:23] <Jack313> D:D
[10:23] <Demon012> they hopefully have better things to do with their time than chase people downloading dvd codecs
[10:23] <tonytiger> Jack313: Could always move to a more liberal country
[10:23] <`23meg> Jack313, watch the "christian rock" episode of south park
[10:24] <Jack313> what hapens?
[10:24] <Demon012> http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=2594403436669124408&q=south+park+christian+rock
[10:25] <Demon012> is that the one `23meg
[10:25] <`23meg> it is
[10:25] <Demon012> heh that's funny
[10:26] <`23meg> the guys download mp3s from soulseek and the fbi raids their house instantly, and events unfold..
[10:26] <Demon012> lol
[10:26] <Jack313> haha
[10:28] <jdzitro> Demon012 i have the newer version installed
[10:28] <Demon012> cool
[10:29] <Demon012> tell me what you think
[10:29] <Demon012> btw the dynamic playlist generation is a checkbox below the playlist on the right
[10:29] <jdzitro> got it :-)
[10:29] <Demon012> just add a song from your song library after you have added it to the media library in it
[10:29] <Demon012> and away it goes =)
[10:30] <Demon012> amaroK has the same thing too but that is made for KDE and sticks out like a sore thumb
[10:31] <Demon012> unfortunately there are no global keyboard shortcuts implemented in exaile yet
[10:31] <Demon012> that's the one thing I want for this program to be complete
[10:31] <jdzitro> oh. ya, that would help a lot.
[10:32] <Jack313> you know what i liked the most of ubuntu, on my basically new laptop, i installed it and everything worked
[10:32] <jdzitro> when i press play, it does nothing.
[10:32] <Jack313> wifi/special touch keys the quickplay HP keys for audio/ etc
[10:32] <Demon012> mm?? have you got the gstreamer plugins installed?
[10:32] <Jack313> and finally, a battery meter that shows time remaining
[10:32] <jdzitro> i thought so
[10:32] <Jack313> the HP models dont have that
[10:33] <jdzitro> i really like that about ubuntu as well! makes everything easy but i am able to tailor things to my liking.
[10:33] <Demon012> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats
[10:33] <Demon012> just do it again to check that isn't the problem
[10:33] <Demon012> there is a new way in feisty aswell
[10:34] <jdzitro> Oh! i didn't know that
[10:34] <jdzitro> why does stuff like that change with a new release?
[10:34] <Demon012> they try to make it easier
[10:35] <Demon012> and or something else changes that makes the guide have to change
[10:35] <jdzitro> the guide is my bible
[10:36] <Demon012> mmm apparently I cannot do the 7.04 way =S (just checked to see if Ubuntu Restricted Extra's was where it said it was but its not there =S)
[10:36] <Demon012> must be because I dist-upgraded
[10:37] <Demon012> mmm maybe I should bug report that
[10:37] <jdzitro> i am able to Play with rythmbox
[10:37] <Demon012> mmm anyone else here upgrade for edgy to feisty here that can check for me?
[10:38] <Demon012> mmm not sure why you cannot play in exaile jdzitro always seemed to just work for me after I got the codecs installed
[10:39] <Demon012> mmm something you could try
[10:39] <Demon012> open up a terminal and run exaile from there
[10:39] <Demon012> it will tell you what it is doing then in the terminal
[10:40] <jdzitro> thats where i had to run it from because it didnt show up in my main menu
[10:40] <Demon012> might tell you why it cannot play the music
[10:41] <jdzitro> would you like to see the output?
[10:41] <Demon012> yeah if you like (I am not an expert but I may be able to help)
[10:41] <jdzitro> $ exaile
[10:41] <jdzitro> You have entered an invalid option
[10:41] <jdzitro> /usr/local/share/exaile/xl/xlmisc.py:42: DeprecationWarning: the module egg.trayicon is deprecated; equivalent functionality can now be found in pygtk 2.10
[10:41] <jdzitro>   import egg.trayicon
[10:41] <jdzitro> /usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/mutagen/m4a.py:41: DeprecationWarning: mutagen.m4a is deprecated; use mutagen.mp4 instead.
[10:41] <jdzitro>   "mutagen.m4a is deprecated; use mutagen.mp4 instead.", DeprecationWarning)
[10:42] <Demon012> you can safely ignore the tray thing and the mutagen thing
[10:43] <Demon012> they are just warnings not errors of any sort
[10:43] <jdzitro> it's working. i am not sure why.
[10:43] <Demon012> they just say the python functions the author has used have been replaced by newer versions
[10:43] <Demon012> ?? its playing the music now?
[10:44] <jdzitro> yes
[10:44] <Demon012> mmm odd
[10:44] <jdzitro> ok. before, i was dragging tracks to the playlist and then trying to double-click on them to play. didn't work. highlighted and pressed play. didn't work. double-clicked on tracks in the collection tab on the left and it plays.
[10:45] <Demon012> mmm maybe you have found a bug there
[10:45] <Demon012> I have always just double clicked tracks or right click and append to playlisted them
[10:45] <Demon012> hold on I will try it
[10:46] <Demon012> mmm doesn't like just playing if you hit the play button but if you double click them in the playlist it starts playing
[10:46] <jdzitro> right
[10:47] <jdzitro> and i have a playlist now of one artist but i can't skip to the next track :-\
[10:47] <jdzitro> or stop
[10:47] <Demon012> yay soad - aerials =)
[10:47] <jdzitro> scroll is fine
[10:47] <Demon012> mm not sure about tha
[10:47] <Demon012> next definitely works here
[10:47] <jdzitro> very good song
[10:48] <Demon012> and back for that matter
[10:48] <jdzitro> it might have to do with the fact that i installed with automatix2 and then went straight to terminal for the newer version
[10:48] <Demon012> mmm not sure m8
[10:49] <Demon012> goto help->about
[10:49] <jdzitro> i closed the program but it is still playing lol
[10:49] <Demon012> see what version it says
[10:49] <Demon012> ah it isn't closed
[10:49] <Demon012> its in your notification area
[10:49] <jdzitro> it was 0.2.9
[10:49] <jdzitro> oh haha
[10:49] <Demon012> another thing I love about it heh =)
[10:50] <jdzitro> wont quit
[10:50] <Demon012> right click on the icon in notification are and click quit
[10:50] <jdzitro> it wont
[10:50] <Demon012> or file quit
[10:50] <jdzitro> ....system monitor
[10:50] <Demon012> just close your console window then if you have one open
[10:51] <Demon012> or in the console window hold CTRL and press C
[10:51] <jdzitro> i dont
[10:51] <Demon012> lol ok radical method here
[10:51] <Demon012> hold ALT press F2
[10:51] <Demon012> type xkill
[10:51] <Demon012> click on the exaile window
[10:51] <Demon012> just don't click anything else
[10:51] <Demon012> else it will close immediately
[10:51] <jdzitro> nice.
[10:52] <Demon012> useful command that is
[10:52] <jdzitro> ill have to remember that one
[10:52] <Demon012> don't know why it wouldn't close
[10:52] <jdzitro> ive managed to freeze linux before lol
[10:52] <Demon012> and me on a lot of occasions
[10:53] <Demon012> I ask a lot of linux lol
[10:53] <Demon012> 90% of the freezes are due to X though =/
[10:53] <jdzitro> i think that has been the cause of most of my problems too
[10:53] <Demon012> but some are total hard lock freezes and you cannot SSH to the computer
[10:54] <Demon012> yeah X is a pita for that and I am tempted to start a thread on the forums to see if there is some keyboard shortcuts I do not know about to get out of those locks
[10:54] <Demon012> I know CTRL + ALT + Backspace
[10:54] <Demon012> that resets X
[10:55] <jdzitro> i use that now and then
[10:55] <Demon012> loses everything in the process though
[10:55] <jdzitro> its better than having to reset though
[10:55] <Demon012> they need a get outta jail free card for X
[10:55] <LoCusF> lol :)
[10:55] <Demon012> see he agrees with me =)
[10:56] <jdzitro> haha
[10:56] <Demon012> I have been hearing a lot of good things about X.Org 7.3 though so maybe we will get one then
[10:57] <jdzitro> i can't wait for things like that to improve
[10:57] <Demon012> yeah same m8
[10:58] <Demon012> infact I am tempted to start running development releases instead of the current stableish non LTS version of ubuntu
[10:58] <Demon012> did it once before and didn't get a lot of problems
[10:58] <Demon012> and it is nice to be on the bleeding edge
[10:59] <Demon012> just a bit risky
[10:59] <jdzitro> interesting. i haven't run an LTS yet. yes, i like to be on the edge myself
[10:59] <Demon012> yeah dapper is the only thing that will run on my mums old computer
[10:59] <jdzitro> i figure all of my important files are on an external drive anyway so i am free to experiment and break my filesystem down
[10:59] <Demon012> the xorg in edgy broke the savage graphics driver it needs
[11:00] <Demon012> ah good you have a good partition setup aswell then =)
[11:00] <Demon012> yeah that's what I do
[11:00] <jdzitro> i have an ati video card which i found out the hard way makes things more difficult
[11:00] <Demon012> I have a 20 GB main partition with boot and all that stuff on there
[11:00] <Demon012> and home is on another partition
[11:00] <jdzitro> same here!
[11:01] <Demon012> works perfectly
[11:01] <jdzitro> may i ask, what is your experience in dual-booting linux and window$
[11:02] <Demon012> doing it right now
[11:02] <jdzitro> i can't seem to get windows to work anymore.
[11:02] <Demon012> got win xp and fiesty on here
[11:02] <Demon012> how come what's it upto?
[11:02] <Demon012> got a juicy error message for me =)?
[11:03] <jdzitro> not so much, no. i installed windows xp (legal, new copy) and then edgy for the bootloader.
[11:03] <Demon012> well don't know if expert but advanced
[11:03] <jdzitro> :-)
[11:03] <Demon012> mm does it stop at grub then?
[11:03] <jdzitro> i booted into windows a couple times and then back to linux.
[11:04] <Demon012> if you select windows xp in the list what does it say?
[11:04] <jdzitro> i went to boot windows and after grub selection of xp the progress bar loader ....splash screen comes up and freezes
[11:04] <Demon012> ok I'll let you finish explaining before I bombard you with questions =)
[11:05] <Demon012> argh I hate when that happens
[11:05] <jdzitro> i always end up resetting. then it froze every time and i havent been in windows since.
[11:05] <jdzitro> ive installed and re-installed....
[11:05] <Demon012> erm have you tried tapping F8 like crazy just after you select windows xp from grub?
[11:05] <Demon012> (it brings up boot options like safe mode etc)
[11:06] <jdzitro> no. it usually brings it up automatically becuase it didn't "shutdown correctly"
[11:06] <Demon012> any luck getting into safe mode then?
[11:06] <Demon012> or does that hang aswell?
[11:07] <jdzitro> ill choose last known good configuration and ive used normal mode because i wouldnt know what to do to fix anything in safe mode.
[11:07] <Demon012> mmm I think that may be your only option =/
[11:08] <jdzitro> try to boot into safe mode and...?
[11:08] <Demon012> the things that come to mind with your problem are:
[11:08] <Demon012> a dodgy driver has been installed that is preventing your computer from booting correctly
[11:08] <Demon012> your filesystem needs repairing with chkdsk /f
[11:08] <Demon012> argh
[11:08] <Demon012> hold on
[11:08] <jdzitro> not a problem
[11:08] <Demon012> that was meant to be a multiline message
[11:08] <Demon012> just showed the last line
[11:09] <Demon012> the problem you are getting with windows can be caused by a few things but the things that come to mind are:
[11:09] <Demon012> you have a dodgy driver that windows does not like and it is refusing to load it correctly and just stopping
[11:09] <Demon012> or you have a damaged system file
[11:10] <Demon012> or you have a filesystem error which you can fix by running chkdsk /f
[11:10] <jdzitro> thats surprising because its a brand new install.
[11:10] <Demon012> mm you booted into it once before yes>
[11:10] <Demon012> ?
[11:10] <Demon012> did you install any drivers?
[11:10] <jdzitro> a couple times but that was after a few errors
[11:11] <Demon012> or even more specifically did you by any chance install  daemon tools (that has caused this to happen to me before and I had to go into safemode and physically delete the driver)
[11:11] <jdzitro> all i was able to install was ati drivers, firefox, steam and trillian before i couldnt use it anymore. but it would freeze even on the last restart of the installation process.
[11:12] <Demon012> mmm could have been the ati drivers =S
[11:12] <Demon012> or one of the drivers windows update  installed automatically
[11:12] <jdzitro> i turn them off.
[11:12] <Demon012> ok that eliminates that then
[11:13] <Demon012> have you tried going into safemode and using system restore?
[11:13] <Demon012> (never works usually but worth trying)
[11:13] <jdzitro> both true.
[11:14] <jdzitro> i guess i was hoping i could paste something into the dos-prompt and make it all better :)
[11:14] <jdzitro> i really like linux.
[11:15] <Demon012> same here m8
[11:15] <Demon012> if there is a problem it tells you what the hell it is
[11:15] <jdzitro> YES
[11:15] <Demon012> rather than mwahahaha start guessing!
[11:15] <jdzitro> lol
[11:16] <Demon012> and what the bloody hell is the point in illegal operations!?!? they are of use to no one but the person who developed the software
[11:16] <jdzitro> i never understood that box at all. always just made me mad.
[11:16] <Demon012> don't know what the hell you are meant to be able to achieve if you are not told anything useful about the problem that occurred
[11:17] <jdzitro> yes
[11:17] <Demon012> lol same here
[11:18] <Demon012> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/17371/
[11:18] <Demon012> check that out lol
[11:18] <Demon012> something my tutor showed me
[11:18] <Demon012> had me in fits
[11:18] <jdzitro> lolz
[11:19] <jdzitro> that's great
[11:19] <Demon012> yeah I thought so too lol
[11:19] <Demon012> I would paste it into here for everyone but IRC doesn't like multiline messages
[11:20] <jdzitro> are you in the Netherlands, Demon?
[11:20] <Demon012> no im from the UK m8
[11:21] <jdzitro> i thought so, heh, the link confused me.
[11:21] <Demon012> ah yes lol
[11:21] <Demon012> yeah I have been looking for useful things since yesterday morning because I am trying to become more involved with ubuntu
[11:22] <Demon012> and that was one of the things I found that was useful yesterday
[11:22] <Demon012> loving this open week so far
[11:23] <jdzitro> i would love to, for now, just learn all i can and master the OS. come june, i will be attending a technical college and maybe focusing my studies to become a "Linux Specialist"
[11:23] <Demon012> nice
[11:23] <Demon012> where you from jdzitro?
[11:26] <jdzitro> i'm from california, in the states
[11:28] <Demon012> ahh kk was hoping you would say from the UK as I wouldn't mind going and doing some linux courses myself
[11:29] <Demon012> they are a little sparse on the ground over here
[11:29] <Demon012> in my area anyway
[11:30] <jdzitro> there is little interest for linux in my area but hopefully that will change
[11:30] <jdzitro> it seems with ubuntu that linux has become more mainstream
[11:30] <Demon012> yeah ubuntu certainly has worked wonders
[11:31] <jdzitro> i used to boot knoppix now and then and just play but it was so intimidating. ubuntu is just more friendly.
[11:31] <Demon012> its strongest point imo and what holds it all together is a mix of the philosophy that it should just work and the package management
[11:31] <jdzitro> it's not something i can really be scared of
[11:31] <Demon012> the no ports open philosophy helps a lot too
[11:31] <jdzitro> yes, i just want the damn thing to work! lol
[11:32] <Demon012> lol same here m8
[11:32] <Demon012> yeah for example though something that I was shocked and amazed with the other week with SuSe for example...
[11:32] <jdzitro> i think the hardest part in a transition from windows is deciding what applications to use
[11:32] <Demon012> my friend at college installed suse on a machine that was connected to the main network
[11:33] <Demon012> he installed all the defaults and it all went ok
[11:33] <Demon012> then suddenly the technician comes in complaining about some weird problems she is having
[11:33] <jdzitro> everyone is so accustomed to things like windows media player or IE because they are comfortable but those applications are not for everyone and they don't provide a lot of room for customization of services
[11:34] <Demon012> then after a few minutes we realise that SuSe by default installs a DHCP server and it had taken over the network
[11:34] <jdzitro> oh wow lol
[11:34] <Demon012> that really should not be the case rofl
[11:35] <Demon012> I then told my m8 to go get himself Kubuntu (he loves KDE)
[11:35] <Demon012> and he has been using it ever since and he loves it lol
[11:35] <Demon012> also it seems SuSe still suffers from dependency hell
[11:36] <Demon012> (where you cannot meet all the dependencies for something on the computer)
[11:36] <jdzitro> i think for linux to really take off, people need to be able to use it without the worries that they are going to break something
[11:36] <Demon012> yes definitely
[11:37] <Demon012> so while it should just work it should be self contained at the same time so it doesn't hijack a network
[11:37] <jdzitro> more people need to just burn a copy of something and start clicking around. that's the best way to learn it, i think.
[11:37] <jdzitro> yes lol that's bad times.
[11:37] <Demon012> yeah that's what I have been doing with linux for about 5 years now
[11:37] <jdzitro> thats exactly how i learned windows
[11:37] <Demon012> first tried a very very old version of redhat
[11:37] <jdzitro> i am just starting over
[11:38] <Demon012> didn't get on with that very well
[11:38] <Demon012> then I tried suse
[11:38] <Demon012> that worked for me at the time but was slow
[11:38] <Demon012> then tried fedora
[11:38] <jdzitro> i had a red hat distro too and didn't like it. it was for a intro to linux class and it just didn't feel right.
[11:38] <Demon012> liked that ran that for a while
[11:38] <Demon012> then I found out about ubuntu breezy
[11:39] <Demon012> that was what I settled on
[11:39] <Demon012> but it wasn't able to totally replace windows for me
[11:39] <Demon012> so I have dual booted ever since
[11:39] <Demon012> and ubuntu is slowly taking over
[11:39] <jdzitro> i was forced to lol but i have no regrets
[11:40] <jdzitro> the thing works and that puts a smile on my face
[11:40] <Demon012> once cedega is able to play EVE-Online really reallly well (as well as windows frame rate wise) I will dump windows asap lol
[11:40] <jdzitro> i still need to tweak wine and steam so that counter-strike will play more normally
[11:41] <jdzitro> i was playing tonight and had so many problems i couldnt explain
[11:41] <jdzitro> we will get there soon, though
[11:41] <Demon012> that's is one of the main problems linux has (lack of comercial games)
[11:42] <jdzitro> YES!!!
[11:42] <jdzitro> it would be "xdirectx10" haha
[11:42] <Demon012> well actually I don't know if I like direct x 10 (have you heard they have stopped you using native OpenGL?)
[11:42] <jdzitro> yes i did
[11:43] <Demon012> also removed direct sound
[11:43] <jdzitro> orly??
[11:43] <Demon012> yep
[11:43] <jdzitro> and are using what now?
[11:43] <Demon012> hold on got mind block lol
[11:43] <Demon012> its the one they used in ut2004
[11:43] <jdzitro> ummm
[11:44] <Demon012> think it begins with an A (and no not alsa lol)
[11:44] <jdzitro> reltek?
[11:44] <jdzitro> oh
[11:44] <Demon012> no silly me its OpenAL
[11:45] <jdzitro> lol
[11:45] <Demon012> there we go knew google would help me again
[11:45] <Demon012> bloody mind blocks
[11:45] <Demon012> I was kinda right it had an A in it =)
[11:45] <Demon012> just thought it was the first letter lol
[11:47] <Demon012> heh
[11:47] <jdzitro> well, i should get to bed. it's almost 3 in the morning here. just passed bedtime lol
[11:47] <Demon012> yeah also try not to get tempted to install vista on your computer its nothing but hassle
[11:48] <Demon012> lol kk m8 sleep well
[11:48] <Demon012> was thinking that earlier
[11:48] <jdzitro> oh i was using RC2 for a while then formatted it for ubuntu
[11:48] <Demon012> yeah I tried that too
[11:48] <jdzitro> thanks a lot for all your help
[11:48] <Demon012> took me ages to get it installed (it doesn't like xp's partitions???)
[11:48] <Demon012> np m8 nice talking to you
[11:48] <Demon012> added you to my buddy list
[11:49] <Demon012> will talk to you again soon
[11:49] <jdzitro> ya ill do the same
[11:49] <jdzitro> gnite
[11:49] <Demon012> nn m8
[12:08] <johnt> What is happening here??
[12:09] <PriceChild> johnt, nothing yet until 15:00
[12:09] <PriceChild> utc
[12:10] <johnt> Is utc gmt?? London england
[12:11] <PriceChild> No
[12:11] <PriceChild> @now utc
[12:11] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 24 2007, 10:11:18 - Next meeting: Technical Board in 9 hours 48 minutes
[12:11] <PriceChild> @now london
[12:11] <ubotu> Current time in Europe/London: April 24 2007, 11:11:21 - Next meeting: Technical Board in 9 hours 48 minutes
[12:11] <PriceChild> London is now on BST
[12:11] <harrisony> PriceChild: it is? wow
[12:12] <harrisony> !board
[12:12] <PriceChild> We have to be difficult you see... it wouldn't be the same :)
[12:12] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about board - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[12:12] <johnt> Grr thet changed it since I left in 1966
[12:12] <johnt> they
[12:13] <johnt> <price child> So we sit in a classroom and listen Right???
[12:14] <PriceChild> johnt, sort of. There is also #ubuntu-classroom-chat where you can ask questions.
[12:14] <PriceChild> Depending on the session leader's style, this room may be "moderated" so that no-one but the leader can speak and the best questions just get pasted over
[12:15] <johnt> <Price Child > Do you need to be a uber geek???
[12:15] <PriceChild> lol no :)
[12:15] <PriceChild> This week is all about getting involved, you don't have to know anything to be able to come here and learn a bit :)
[12:16] <johnt> Ok I might come along and have a look it I can idle
[12:17] <johnt> spelling I meant if
[12:18] <johnt> One last dumb question  If there is no class for nine hours why are there 150 people here?
[12:20] <Demon012> johnt: the lessons are great I attended them all yesterday (I especially found the Bazaar revision control system on useful)
[12:21] <Demon012> johnt: we are patient =)
 Cool I will get up early in the morning and have a look I think it will be around  8.00am where I am
[12:22] <Demon012> cool
[12:22] <PriceChild> johnt, Its not in 9 hours... they're in 4 1/2
[12:23] <johnt> Better go I have class in the morning :-))
[12:23] <Demon012> don't worry if you miss one though there will be chatlogs (I know it isn't the same but you still get to read the answers to others questions)
[12:23] <Demon012> ok gn johnt
[12:24] <PriceChild> ajmitch, you really wanted to get involved there as well... (
[12:24] <PriceChild> :(
[12:24] <ajmitch> yeah
[12:24] <johnt> <Price Child> Gaa that is  3.00 am
[12:24] <ajmitch> quite right
[01:08] <popey> :)
[01:08] <popey> I have been popey the poopy for some time now
[01:09] <popey> http://irpg.blitzed.eu.org/players.php <- see
[01:09] <PriceChild> Hey there popey
[01:10] <popey> hullo!
[01:13] <PriceChild> All ready and eager to start? :)
[01:15] <popey> erk
[01:15] <popey> shall we just clear the channel and I will babble to myself for a bit ;)
[01:15] <jono> heh
[01:15] <ajmitch> hey jono
[01:16] <jono> hey :)
[01:16] <popey> i am going to make a point of winking at jono at LRL07 just to show that ;) is an appropriate emoticon
[01:16] <popey> no, you have not pulled
[01:16] <jono> popey: heh, the big misunderstand is that I hate ;) - I just hate overuse :P
[01:16] <popey> ahhh
[01:16] <jono> right lunch for the bacon
[01:16] <popey> the misunderstanding is more fun though
[01:16] <jono> later skater
[01:16] <jono> popey: thats the premise of the open source community ;)
[01:17] <popey> \o/ factual innacuracies
[01:31] <Elwell> OT (but semi related) - Is there a way to split the screen in irssi so I can have say 70% top screen with classroom in, and bottom 30% with classroom-chat?
[01:33] <popey> yes
[01:33] <popey> i have my irssi split
[01:34] <popey> I don't have two channels in the windows, I have the main window and then 8 lines at the top which show my hilight words
[01:34] <popey> i have set <QUESTION> to be a hilight word so I will see them pop up hopefully
[01:35] <popey> Elwell: http://www.irssi.org/documentation/startup has some stuff - search for split
[01:36] <Elwell> yeah - I saw the highlight words trick described somewhere. (and promptly failed to bookmark)
[01:42] <jrib> Elwell: f0rked website iirc
[02:03] <salty-horse> when's the next session?
[02:04] <PriceChild> salty-horse, 15:00 utc
[02:04] <PriceChild> it is now:
[02:04] <PriceChild> @now
[02:04] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 24 2007, 12:04:50 - Next meeting: Technical Board in 7 hours 55 minutes
[02:04] <PriceChild> So 3 huors :)
[02:05] <salty-horse> the technical board isn't listed here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[02:06] <robertj> doesn't TB usually meet in #ubuntu-meeting?
[02:07] <harrisony> robertj: ye
[02:15] <PriceChild> salty-horse, the technical board isn't part of the ubuntu open week
[02:15] <PriceChild> salty-horse, that's a regular meeting that normaly happens
[02:16] <harrisony> what does the technical board talk about
[02:16] <salty-horse> technicalities
[02:18] <PriceChild> harrisony, they look after the development of ubuntu. all the important stuff, i'm not sure how else to explain :)
[02:18] <harrisony> ahh i see
[02:18] <harrisony> @now
[02:18] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 24 2007, 12:18:54 - Next meeting: Technical Board in 7 hours 41 minutes
[02:19] <harrisony> hmm
[02:19] <harrisony> i might be able to make it
[02:22] <habeeb> 7 hours? o_o
[02:22] <habeeb> aww.. the technical board (what a retard)...
[02:22] <habeeb> and what's the "command" for the normal classroom schedule?
[02:23] <tonytiger> There isn't one, I don't think.
[02:23] <habeeb> :(
[02:23] <tonytiger> It was discussed yesterday and the best anyone could come up with was the link in /topic
[02:23] <habeeb> i see
[02:24] <tonytiger> I could be wrong though :)
[02:24] <habeeb> but why? I mean you could rewrite ubotu's code to countdown from 15, instead?
[02:24] <habeeb> Just for these days, I mean..
[02:25] <habeeb> *15 is the hour when the classroom starts (or whenever it is ).
[02:25] <PriceChild> It was suggested to get ubotu to change the topic etc. but I don't think seve.as has the time at such last minute to hack ubotu for work which will only be good for 6 days.
[02:26] <habeeb> i see
[02:27] <habeeb> ubotu is "closed"-source? :P
[02:29] <PriceChild> habeeb, no
[02:29] <PriceChild> habeeb, if you want to do the coding and give it to sev.eas then go for it :)
[02:29] <PriceChild> http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/code/
[02:38] <tonytiger> popey: g'luck
[02:38] <popey> ta
[02:39] <habeeb> by the way, shouldn't there be a notice or something in the ubuntuforums about this channel? I mean, near the label saying that Feisty is out...
[02:39] <habeeb> I wouldn't know about this if there wasn't a thread in digg.com about it.
[02:43] <PriceChild> Hey popey
[02:43] <popey> look up :)
[02:43] <popey> you're a forum dude
[02:43] <popey> are there openweek threads?
[02:43] <PriceChild> Hey, habeeb there is a sticky in the cafe and also a post int he announcements forum
[02:44] <habeeb> True. Didn't see the announcements one. as far as the cafe is concerned, tho, not many people look there.
[03:17] <alterlaszlo> approx two hours to go...
[03:18] <harrisony> till
[03:18] <harrisony> Oh yueah
[04:19] <PriceChild> how rude
[04:20] <adamant1988> PriceChild: Don't tell me about rude.
[04:20] <adamant1988> Rude is quoting American Office for 3 hours
[04:20] <jrib> american office?
[04:20] <PriceChild> adamant1988, hehe i'm watching it atm
[04:21] <adamant1988> PriceChild: Addictions are bad for you
[04:21] <jrib> ok he's here, stop talking about him guys
[04:22] <jrib> hi mc44
[04:22] <jjesse> what class do we have right now?
[04:22] <PriceChild> jjesse, screencasting in 40 minutes
[04:22] <jjesse> oh cool
[04:23] <popey> fame at last!
[04:26] <popey> amusing picture of the day:- http://www.mileserve.com/pictures/Screenshot.png my mates desktop after upgrading to feisty
[04:26] <popey> He said "I was trying to change the language"
[04:26] <popey> I asked "what to?"
[04:26] <popey> he said "square square square square"
[04:26] <popey> he is beyond help
[04:26] <PriceChild> hehe
[04:27] <mc44> popey: ah, I see he selected rectangle rectangle rectangle by mistake
[04:27] <popey> fool!
[04:29] <jrib> I like how it says "userfriendly" in the corner
[04:29] <habeeb> The first msn contact's pic..
[04:29] <habeeb> is that you, popey ?
[04:29] <popey> of course ;)
[04:29] <popey> (no, it isnt)
[04:30] <cellojoe> where's userfriendly?
[04:30] <KalleDK_Lap> down to the right
[04:30] <habeeb> on the wallpaper
[04:30] <mc44> popey: so thats why you were so popular on youtube
[04:30] <cellojoe> oh *that* wallpaper....(cellojoe doesn't have jrib's wallpaper)
[04:30] <popey> yes, i look like a blue disembodied head and shoulders with a yellow piece of paper in front
[04:31] <popey> er
[04:31] <habeeb> oh shi-
[04:31] <popey> ta
[04:31] <popey> :)
[04:31] <cellojoe> i thought it was screen yeaaah
[04:31] <PriceChild> LjL, aww steal my thunder :)
[04:31] <LjL> swapped days :P
[04:31] <habeeb> what's the -o function?
[04:31] <popey> lollypop mode
[04:31] <PriceChild> lol
[04:32] <popey> -* is sparkler mode
[04:32] <PriceChild> <8 is icecream mode?
[04:32] <cellojoe> habeeb: -o is the 'ftl' function
[04:32] <jrib> popey: you have a gift
[04:32] <PriceChild> <O that's single scoop
[04:32] <cellojoe> habeeb: +o is the root function
[04:33] <LjL> PriceChild: your thunder...? we've been topicing sessions last open week, too :P
[04:33] <cellojoe> <O0 double scoop?
[04:33] <PriceChild> LjL, :P
[04:33] <jrib> cellojoe: with a single sprinkle?
[04:33] <popey> <O  flake!
[04:33] <popey> ish
[04:33] <mc44> :D
[04:33] <davmor2> <O0- double scoop with a flake
[04:33] <nakinub> ciao a tutti/e -----------------> ubuntu.noblogs.org
[04:33] <PriceChild> and sprinkle davmor2
[04:33] <cellojoe> <O0` single sprinkle
[04:35] <davmor2> <O0:- pricechild there's your sprinkles
[04:35] <PriceChild> wooo
[04:36] <habeeb> You know what is missing from this channel?
[04:36] <habeeb> No Listening spam!
[04:37] <popey> Ponies
[04:37] <popey> oh
[04:37] <habeeb> *now
[04:37] <mc44> @pony popey
[04:37] <popey> Bio break!
[04:37] <davmor2> Giraffes
[04:37] <cellojoe> so if we're not supposed to talk during the session, why not just +m the channel?
[04:38] <nakinub> ciao a tutti/e -----------------> ubuntu.noblogs.org
[04:38] <bordy> cellojoe they did yesterday for jono
[04:38] <cellojoe> ah
[04:38] <bordy> yeah. lots of gratuitous babble
[04:38] <mc44> well actually they did yesterday for all sessions
[04:38] <PriceChild> cellojoe, we won't +m unless the speaker requests it... we just never took it off yesterday as the speakers liked it.
[04:38] <popey> smart move
[04:38] <bordy> orly? I was only able to hit the first session
[04:38] <cellojoe> oh, mk
[04:38] <popey> PriceChild: I hereby request mutiny
[04:38] <mc44> whereas popey can take the heckling, right? be a man :)
[04:38] <davmor2> if you really want to lock it down +ms
[04:39] <PriceChild> popey, in what fashion?
[04:39] <popey> like a jaunty sailor
[04:39] <popey> with his hat on at a funny angle
[04:39] <PriceChild> could you repeat the request in a pirate accent to confirm.
[04:39] <popey> Yarrr!
[04:39] <habeeb> No well, since we have ubuntu-classroom-chat there is no point for this channel to not be +m
[04:39] <popey> PriceChild: +m when we start would be appreciated
[04:40] <PriceChild> popey, Will do :)
[04:40] <popey> ta
[04:40] <mc44> popey: wimp
[04:40] <PriceChild> haha
[04:40] <PriceChild> mc44, he's not a real hardcore speaker is he :P
[04:40] <PriceChild> mc44, you'll just have to heckle twice as hard in -chat
[04:41] <popey> the problem is the logs will be impossilbe to read
[04:41] <habeeb> Hey! I'm supposed to be studying >:

[04:41] <PriceChild> popey, yeah. btw I'm impressed with whoever sorted the logs from yesterday... /me looks
[04:41] <alterlaszlo> what's '+m'
[04:41] <alterlaszlo> ??
[04:41] <PriceChild> ausimage :)
[04:42] <habeeb> alterlaszlo: if +m is enabled only the operators can speak
[04:42] <PriceChild> alterlaszlo, means only certain people get to speak. Questions may be asked in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[04:42] <chell> hey guys
[04:42] <alterlaszlo> how do i activate +m?
[04:42] <habeeb> y halo thar
[04:42] <habeeb> alterlaszlo: you don't. Operators do.
[04:42] <alterlaszlo> thx
[04:42] <habeeb> alterlaszlo: operators are people with "@" before their names.
[04:42] <PriceChild> brb 2 mins
[04:44] <maxi_> what session will start at what time, I dont know the calculation with UTC...
[04:44] <maxi_> ???
[04:44] <PriceChild> maxi_, popey will begin with screencasts in 15 mintues
[04:44] <habeeb> maxi_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[04:46] <maxi_> thx, I knew the timetable, now I can calculate for my local tim...
[04:46] <maxi_> e
[04:46] <PriceChild> @now
[04:46] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 24 2007, 14:46:27 - Next meeting: Technical Board in 5 hours 13 minutes
[04:47] <popey> right, i think i am ready http://gallery.popey.com/gallery/screenshots/Screenshot_006
[04:48] <cellojoe> are we done with the <0 icecream?
[04:48] <habeeb> Aw man... I won't be here for Shuttleworth's show..
[04:48] <ypsila> moin
[04:48] <cellojoe> my screen session froze :(
[04:48] <habeeb> cellojoe: no, the discussion is still in progress.
[04:48] <ypsila> moin \sh
[04:48] <someothernick> lol
[04:48] <PriceChild> popey, dual screen - no fair :)
[04:48] <popey> more space for ponies
[04:48] <PriceChild> hehe
[04:48] <PriceChild> @pony popey
[04:49] <habeeb> I'm on popey's screen! Hey mom!
[04:49] <mc44> popey: you need to edit that pony with the ubuntu logo in pink :)
[04:49] <cellojoe> aw, i'm not.
[04:49] <cellojoe> silly screen :(
[04:49] <cellojoe> but irssi ftw
[04:50] <habeeb> Heh... lugradio channel :P
[04:50] <habeeb> Also "Screen popey, do you use it?"
[04:51] <popey> just a touch
[04:51] <habeeb> Two terminals open for two irssi is anti-trendy.
[04:51] <popey> the one at the top is temporary
[04:51] <\sh> moins ypsila
[04:51] <popey> so i can keep an eye on the noise in -chat
[04:51] <cellojoe> screen -x?
[04:52] <habeeb> popey: no excuses.
[04:52] <popey> indeed
[04:52] <popey> I am lame
[04:53] <cellojoe> screencasts are like videos of a desktop, right?
[04:53] <popey> indeed they are
[04:53] <cellojoe> just makin sure
[04:53] <cellojoe> i shoulda /ignore joins parts awhile ago :(
[04:53] <elkbuntu> no time for drinkin coffee popey .. you gotta type!
[04:54] <popey> copy/paste FTW!
[04:59] <LjL> The topic for #ubuntu-classroom is: Ubuntu Open Week || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here>" || NEXT SESSION: Screencasting Team, by Alan Pope (starting shortly)
[05:02] <popey> *tap* *tap*
[05:02] <popey> is this thing on?
[05:02] <PriceChild> For those just joining, please join #ubuntu-classroom-chat to ask all your questions!
[05:03] <popey> Ok, here's the plan for the next hour-ish
[05:03] <popey> * Introduction
[05:03] <popey> * Brief history of screencasting
[05:03] <popey> * Brief history of the screencasting team
[05:03] <popey> * Useful Links
[05:03] <popey> * How do we make screencasts?
[05:03] <popey> * How do other people make screencasts?
[05:03] <popey> * How/why do we convert videos to other formats (or "There are formats *other* than OGG!?")
[05:03] <popey> * How do we make them available?
[05:04] <popey> * What can people do with them?
[05:04] <popey> * What we should be doing
[05:04] <popey> * What we need / how you can help
[05:04] <popey> * What else can we do / any questions?
[05:04] <popey> * Introduction
[05:04] <popey> Hi, my name is Alan Pope, you may remember me from such IRC channels as #ubuntu-uk, #launchpad and the hilarious #lugradio. I'm an Ubuntu user just like you. I don't work for Canonical, I'm not a system admin, or a developer in fact I can't really code at all. Oh and I have no artistic skills whatsoever.
[05:04] <popey>  It's not looking good is it!?
[05:05] <popey> I do however have some experience of IT Training so making screencasts makes sense to me as a way of contributing to the community because it's something I can actually do!
[05:05] <popey> * Brief history of screencasting
[05:05] <popey> "A screencast is a digital recording of computer screen output, also known as a video screen capture, often containing audio narration." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screencasting - read the first paragraph of that, I'll be testing you later :)
[05:05] <popey> Some people learn better by being shown how to do stuff rather than by reading detailed How-Tos or man pages. Whilst this is an alien concept to many geeks who memorise URLs of How-Tos and commit entire man pages to memory, your average Joe Ubuntu User needs pretty pictures and videos.
[05:06] <popey> So for this reason I created a few screencasts.
[05:06] <popey> * Brief history of the screencasting team
[05:06] <popey> About 7 years ago I was working for a company doing IT training on evil software. We had an idea over coffee one day to make some videos that people could watch online. At the time Viewlet Builder (proprietary app) was available and seemed to do the job of recording screen activity quite well.
[05:06] <popey> I registered quickones.org to host them, because we thought they would be quick videos, 5 minutes about how to perform a particular task on a computer. Unfortunately the project never really got anywhere so the domain got used for something else.
[05:07] <popey> Cut forward to 2005 when I started looking at screencasting tools on Linux. I tried some of the desktop recording tools, and some video editing software to see if I could make screencasts that would render well over the web or downloaded and played locally. Some of the tools are pretty good, I filed a few bugs, requested some features and contacted the authors of some of the applications.
[05:07] <popey> I settled on a suite of tools (more of that in a moment) which I use to do my screencasts. It was (and still is) important to me
[05:08] <popey> to make screencasts using completely free tools.
[05:08] <popey> i.e. not use windows applications such as camtasia to make the screencasts - but thats a personaly thing :)
[05:08] <popey>  After making some test videos and sending them to my local LUG mailing list for evaluation I started making lists of screencasts that people might want to watch. I tried to figure out what people would want to see, common questions people ask and funky new things new users might not know about.
[05:09] <popey> A few people tested the videos and gave me some feedback about the format, style and content of the screencasts. Towards the end of 2006 I made a bunch of "feature length" screencasts. They are each about 5-10 minutes long and cover some basic concepts such as installation of Ubuntu and customising the desktop.
[05:09] <popey> Matthew East contacted me and offered some help and hosting on the documentation team server - which we are now using. We setup the screencast team on launchpad and more recently had a meeting on irc to discuss the direction and technical issues surrounding screencasting.
[05:10] <popey> It was decided that we should target the current release (Feisty) for new screencasts. We also decided to drop the default resolution from 1024x768 to 800x600 because some popular machines couldn't play them due to driver bugs, and the video files were very large with little added value at the higher resolution.
[05:10] <popey> Ok, thats the history lesson over
[05:10] <popey> * How do we make screencasts?
[05:11] <popey> The tool set _I_ use is QEMU+KQEMU(or KVM) (virtual machine), xvidcap (screen recording), avidemux (audio recording), ffmpeg and avidemux (format conversion). In slightly over one sentence:-
[05:11] <popey> "I install Ubuntu in a QEMU vm which runs in an 800x600 window on my desktop (we used to use 1024x768 but this casued problems). I run xvidcap on my desktop and set it to record the QEMU window only. I do my demo in Ubuntu under QEMU and when finished I stop xvidcap. I watch the video back, recording the audio track in audacity as I go. I merge the audio and video in avidemux and upload to the web"
[05:12] <popey> (If there are any questions about any of the above tools, please ask)
[05:12] <popey> It sounds a lot easier than it actually is.
[05:12] <popey> and in a way, it sounds a lot harder than it actually is :)
[05:13] <popey> I will take some questions at the end of this section in a moment
[05:13] <popey> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/RecordingScreencasts for considerably more detail.
[05:13] <popey> Some people have reported that this process is convoluted (recording audio separately from video), doesn't perform well (some people get low frame rates out of xvidcap), and cumbersome (running a virtual machine rather than recording the local machine direct). These are of course all valid concerns :)
[05:14] <popey> On the wiki we outlined the reasons for doing it this way. Of course other people can create screencasts in any way they want, this is just the way that works for us. So long as people can create high quality screencasts in a format that we can use, we really don't care how they are made.
[05:14] <popey> If anyone has a better (more streamlined, faster, easier) way to create screencasts _on_ _Linux_ (i.e. not using a Windows/Mac screencasting app) which results in high quality video in formats we can use, we want to hear it.
[05:14] <popey> If you have any questions about the way we make screencasts, please do ask and I'll try to answer them as best I can.
[05:14] <popey> Ok, I will break for questions now.
[05:15] <popey> < chell> QUESTION: Why don't you record the audio at the same time as the video?
[05:15] <popey> Because pretty much every screencast I have watched where this is done consists of the speaker going " uhmmm.. errr..." as they concentrate on what they are doing
[05:15] <popey> it doesnt sound nice to the listener
[05:16] <popey> chell: does that answer your question?
[05:16] <popey> in addition, if you record audio and video together and mess up the audio due to someone walking in the room for example, you have to re-record the whole thing
[05:17] <popey> if you record the audio separately if you mess it up, you only need to re-record the audio
[05:17] <popey> < chell> you still get uhms and errs if you do the narration afterwards (or do you have a script)?
[05:17] <popey> i record the video, then watch it practicing what I am going to say, then watch it again and record the audio as I watch
[05:18] <popey> I dont think I uhm much
[05:18] <popey> watch them and feel free to tell me I do though :)
[05:18] <popey>  < cellojoe> QUESTION: are all the tools available in the officials repos?
[05:18] <popey> All except xvidcap, which is packaged as a .deb on the xvidcap site
[05:18] <popey> it works on dapper, edgy and feisty
[05:19] <popey> qemu, avidemux and others are packaged
[05:19] <popey> except the kqemu accelerator for qemu which needs compiling from source - its documented on the wiki
[05:19] <popey> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/KQemu iirc
[05:19] <popey>  < LjL> QUESTIONS: Why do you use virtual machines? Just because of the resolution difference?
[05:19] <popey> because I want to show people what a real amchine looks like, not my heavily modified desktop
[05:20] <popey> if someone watches a screencast that isn't exactly what they see on their desktop it can put them off
[05:20] <popey> they might be less inclined to "trust" it
[05:20] <popey> i can also rollback what I do with qemu :)
[05:20] <popey> so if I mess it up I can "reset" and do it again very easily
[05:21] <popey> < PriceChild> QUESTION: You compiled xvidcap yourself then I guess? Do you still use it and if so could you package it as it is evil and I've given up :P
[05:21] <popey> no, I use the deb from http://xvidcap.sf.net/
[05:21] <popey> I would gladly package it, but i refer you to my skillset that I pasted at the beginning :)
[05:21] <popey>  < maxi_> How is quemo working, is it difficult to get startet with it?
[05:21] <popey> qemu works for me very well out of the box
[05:22] <popey> especially if you use either kqemu of kvm - kvm only works on CPUs that have the VT virtualisation instructions, kqemu works on any cpu AIUI
[05:22] <popey> < samgee> QUESTION: Isn't 800x600 too small for Ubuntu? I know from experience that it's not enough for the installer.
[05:23] <popey> all the screencasts I have made so far are at 1024x768, it's possible that we may find some things that dont fit in 800x600
[05:23] <popey> and we may make a special case for those
[05:23] <popey> but we should try to stick to 800x600 as much as possible IMO
[05:23] <popey>  < robotangel> QUESTION: Why use xvidcap when there's istanbul (and that's even in the repos - btw why isn't xvidcap)?
[05:24] <popey> istanbul records to ogg, xvidcap is very flexible in the formats that it can encode to, xvidcap also has some nice other features - some of which I have asked the author of istanbul to implement
[05:24] <popey> I am not against istanbul at all, it's just that xvidcap is considerably more feature rich
[05:24] <popey> and that goes for pretty much any screencasting app you care to mention
[05:24] <popey> ok
[05:25] <popey> back to the content, I will return to questions later
[05:25] <popey> * How do other people make screencasts?
[05:25] <popey> There are a load of screencasting apps on Linux.
[05:25] <popey> Istanbul, RecordMyDesktop, screenkast, DemoRecorder (proprietary), and of course xvidcap we would recommend.
[05:25] <popey> vnc2swf, vncrec and wink we would generally not recommend for our screencasts (they record to formats that are difficult to manipulate).
[05:26] <popey> There are good reasons I don't recommend some apps, and that's all detailed on the wiki, but by all means ask any questions and make any comments about these judgements :)
[05:26] <popey> Examples of some quality screencasts that you might want to look at include those at http://ubuntuclips.org/, http://screencastsonline.com (Mac OSX videos) and http://showmedo.com/ .
[05:27] <popey> I am not going to give you examples of bad screencasts - you can find them on youtube and google video yourselves, and when I say "bad" that is entirely my personal opinion, feel free to argue that one with me some time :)
[05:27] <popey> * How/why do we convert videos to other formats?
[05:28] <popey> It's a bit beyond this session to go into the intricate details of the different formats for the screencasts. Suffice to say that in general there are at least 4 formats we support.
[05:28] <popey> Put simply, OGG for the Good, MOV for the Bad, and AVI for the Ugly. FLV is the 4th, (evil) flash based streaming which is done because of the popularity of the flash video format.
[05:28] <popey> Whatever you think of flash, it has a massive install base, and that's a lot of potential eyeballs for our screencasts. It might also make sense to make screencasts which can playback on small format devices such as iPod Video and mobile phones.
[05:29] <popey> Whatever happens, we _always_ make our videos available in OGG/Theora/Vorbis format as a primary objective.
[05:29] <popey> That is unlikely to change.
[05:29] <popey> Avidemux is a great GUI application for converting videos. You can load a video made in another application and save it out in some other format using a different codec and can also do neat things like resize as the file is converted.
[05:30] <popey> Perhaps we need an avidemux screencast? :)
[05:30] <popey> In addition ffmpeg can be used on the command line to convert between formats. We also use ffmpeg2theora to convert MPEG/AVI files to OGG/Theoa format. Other tools have been tried, and suggestions are welcome for other robust, easy to use, flexible tools.
[05:31] <popey> * How do we make them available?
[05:31] <popey> http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/ is the central repository for all the screencasts that have been made under the Screencast Team banner. These are videos actually made by the team specifically _for_ the team (and anyone else) to redistribute.
[05:31] <popey> We don't take other peoples ready-made videos off YouTube for example, I know http://ubuntuvideo.com do a good job of collating video content - including screencasts - in that way.
[05:32] <popey> In the past we uploaded the videos to http://archive.org/ however whilst free it's a little painful and the performance is somewhat slow. So now we host on the docteams server - big thanks to Matthew East (mdke) for helping us out there. Some of these videos are large and as such chew bandwidth when linked to.
[05:33] <popey> * What can people do with them?
[05:33] <popey> Pretty much whatever you like. I rather stupidly created the videos initially under a restrictive license. This was pointed out and now the videos are available under CC BY-SA 2.5 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/). Just to be clear:-
[05:34] <popey> You can redistribute the videos in any format and media you like. You do _not_ need to ask our permission to redistribute them. You can translate them to other languages - perhaps by overdubbing the audio track, create mashups, edit them, whatever. We really don't mind.
[05:34] <popey> Of course we also want people to make their own and contribute back! :)
[05:35] <popey> * What we need / how you can help
[05:35] <popey> (the important bit)
[05:35] <popey> Rationalisation of the screencasting pages on the wiki. Many of the screencasting pages (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreenCasts and its children) are brain dumps of what we were doing to make screencasts at the time. These pages need some love. They need simplifying. Help!
[05:35] <popey> Also the pages under https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam also need some love
[05:36] <popey> We need a very very very simple guide to making screencasts. The problem is it's not that easy to make good quality screencasts. People have suggested a "screencast on how to make screencasts" which we have considered but it's also not exactly easy to make (technically)
[05:36] <popey> We have a list of screencasts we would like to see made:- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/Requests
[05:36] <popey> Please add to this list, or adopt a screencast and make it yourself.
[05:37] <popey> If we can streamline the process I think we can get more people to make them. We would love to hear input on how we can make things easier.
[05:37] <popey> Voice overs/dubbing. I understand from speaking to some people that they don't like the idea of their own voice on a screencast. If that's the case, and you have a video you would like to make, then _please_ let me know. We need the videos made, we can record the audio track if that would help.
[05:38] <popey> * What else can we do / any questions?
[05:38] <popey> Q&A Time.
[05:38] <popey> Also - before a question - a link-fest :)
[05:38] <popey> * Useful links
[05:38] <popey> ** Our pages
[05:38] <popey> http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/ - Home of the screencasts made by the screencast team.
[05:38] <popey> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreenCasts - Base of the screencast team wiki pages.
[05:38] <popey> http://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-screencasts - Launchpad team page.
[05:38] <popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam - Team pages on the wiki
[05:38] <popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/RecordingScreencasts - The method I use to make screencasts.
[05:38] <popey> ** Other people doing good work
[05:38] <popey> http://ubuntuclips.org/ - Have generated a large number of screencasts.
[05:38] <popey> http://ubuntuvideo.com/ - Aggregate video content (not just screencasts) from YouTube/Google (so all flash based).
[05:38] <popey> http://showmedo.com/ - Free and pay-for screencasts on various topics
[05:38] <popey> Ok, that's everything - question time!
[05:39] <popey> 16:21 < Belutz> QUESTIONS: can you provide video only without sound? so the loco team can just record the audio in local language
[05:39] <popey> yes, although if you download the video, avidemux can replace the audio very easily
[05:40] <popey> if you contact me I can provide versions with no audio though
[05:40] <popey> I have those archived
[05:40] <popey> < LjL> popey: you answered. but just a thought (if you find it relevant), what about employing a separate user (with default settings) instead?
[05:40] <popey> we did consider this, but the menu will still look different, universe apps may have been installed, java, flash etc may already be there
[05:40] <popey> so when we show installing software for example the dependencies would not be the same
[05:41] <popey> although I can see that if all you are screencasting is "how to write an openoffice document" that really wont matter
[05:41] <popey> < chell> QUESTION: What are the specs of the machine you use for recording - how well does it work with QEMU (any slowdowns etc)?
[05:41] <popey> I mostly use my desktop PC which is quite poweful - a Core2Duo with 2GB RAM. but the CPU isnt often thrashed
[05:42] <popey> its important the virtual machine has plenty of RAM though
[05:42] <popey> I boot my QEMUs with 512MB of ram, so the host needs a bout a 1GB to run efficiently I'd say
[05:42] <popey> < Demon012[GoneToC> QUESTION: Which format is the preferred format to release the screen casts in?
[05:43] <popey> I kinda think I answered that, i can probably deal with any original format _except_ flash flv
[05:43] <popey> its just too painful (and did I mention evil)
[05:44] <popey>  < Demon012> QUESTION: Is there a screen cast or a series of how to's on setting up these screen casting apps to start screencasting?
[05:44] <popey> not quite, there is a how-to
[05:44] <popey> i would like to make a "how to screencast" screencast, but it is difficult to do
[05:44] <popey>  < zorglu_> QUESTION: under which license are the screencast distributed?
[05:44] <popey> creative commons BY-SA 2.5
[05:44] <popey>  < jrib> QUESTION: why not link the screencasts in the relevant wiki pages?  At the moment, is the only way people find out about a screencast by going to the screencasts page directly?
[05:45] <popey> It *is* a wiki. Feel free to spam the wiki with links to our screencasts wherever appropriate :)
[05:45] <popey>  < zorglu_> QUESTION: is there some 'permalink' to the screencast ? (it would help to include them in external documentations)
[05:46] <popey> the links to the videos you see on http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts *should* be okay, if we ever move server I will setup redirection if that is possible (i did this for quickones - if you visit quickones.org you magically turn up at doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts)
[05:46] <popey>  < JLP> popey: QUESTION: What about adding text captions to recordings? For example for adding subtitles in defferent languages. Is it hard to do?
[05:46] <popey> Yes, it's hard.
[05:46] <popey> :)
[05:47] <popey> I would suggest that if someone wants to transcribe the audio, they can do so and we can put that on the screencast site as a .txt file people can grab
[05:47] <popey> unless someone knows some magic - its going to be painful getting the timing right
[05:47] <popey> < deniz_ogut> popey QUESTION: How much RAM do we need to do this job?
[05:47] <popey> lots
[05:48] <popey> As much as you can. of course if you are recording your own desktop and not using QEMU (VM) approach then its less of an issue
[05:48] <popey> an alternative is to vnc to a remote machine and record the vnc session using xvidcap (not vncrec or vnc2swf for reasons already stated)
[05:48] <popey> that way you spread the load, one machine recording, one doing the demo
[05:49] <popey>  < maxi_> QUESTION: How can I find out if there's any loco team close here I coul'd join? I mean I speak German and spanish almost perfect, and english so so, so maybe there's some translation possilbility?
[05:49] <popey> speak to jono :)
[05:49] <popey> < deniz_ogut> popey QUESTION: What tools do we need for just dubbing (translations, lets say) and what kind of a CPU and RAM?
[05:49] <popey> audacity and something to allow you to watch the video as you talk - some kind of media player - totem / mplayer / vlc
[05:49] <popey> the audio recording doesnt chew up memory, the qemu session does
[05:50] <popey> you can then use avidemux to replace the audio track with your own one
[05:50] <popey> or send me the audio track and I will do it :)
[05:50] <popey>  < Demon012> QUESTION: How do you do things in screencasts while allowing yourself enough time to talk about it after you add audio?
[05:50] <popey> I talk to myself whilst I am doing it :)
[05:50] <popey> i imagine what I am going to say at various points whilst I do the demo
[05:50] <popey> I pause a bit
[05:51] <popey> maybe wave the mouse over an important area
[05:51] <popey>  < jayteeuk> popey QUESTION: Do you script the screencasts themselves, what actions you're going to take, rough talk-over, storyboards, etc, before you get started?
[05:52] <popey> I dont specifically script them.. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/Requests/InstallingJava
[05:52] <popey> we make notes though ^^for example
[05:53] <popey> that's all the questions I think ?
[05:53] <popey> unless anyone wants me to expand on any?
[05:53] <popey> < Gabz> popey QUESTION: what happens when a screencast becomes out of date eg feisty is released ?
[05:53] <popey> yeah, that's a problem we have to live with
[05:54] <popey> either we re-record it or we let it die
[05:54] <popey> depends how "important" it is I guess
[05:54] <popey> the problem is you cant easily edit them
[05:54] <popey> < mc44> question: are there any areas you think we need more screencasts in?
[05:54] <popey> everywhere
[05:55] <popey> seriously
[05:55] <popey> *except* 3d desktop effects
[05:55] <popey> there are like a million of those on youtube
[05:55] <popey> but none from us :(
[05:55] <popey> so yeah, maybe one or two compiz/beryl ones
[05:55] <popey> ask yourself what people ask you about
[05:56] <popey> look through irc channels, mailing lists, support tickets
[05:56] <popey> what questions do people ask
[05:56] <popey>  < jayteeuk> QUESTION: Are there any metrics for determining the popularity of a specific screencast?
[05:56] <popey> ratings on google?
[05:56] <popey> I have stats for popularity of pages on our site
[05:56] <popey> and i get email about them
[05:57] <popey> i need to speak to mdke to get "proper" site stats so we really can see which are the most popular
[05:57] <popey> we were on the front page of groklaw last week :)
[05:57] <popey> which was nice
[05:57] <popey> < zorglu_> QUESTION: have you experimented doing screencast 'automatically' ? i know some people do screenshoot automatically to avoid the burden of redoing at every release.
[05:57] <popey> i have not, if you find a way, i would love to hear it!
[05:57] <popey> 6 < davmor2> popey: can't do that in qemu though can you
[05:57] <popey> sadly not, no
[05:58] <popey> but could install a clean install of ubuntu and just install the screencasting app and beryl, then demo?
[05:58] <popey> < jayteeuk> popey: I was thinking specifically for when determining whether an out-of-date screencast should be killed or re-done for the new release.
[05:58] <popey> there are people still using dapper, I am sure there are people still using breezy, i guess we need to take a call when we run out of space :)
[05:58] <popey>  zorglu_> popey_: publishing those popularity results would allow people to know which kind of screencast is the most usefull for the users
[05:59] <popey> ok, I will gather stats and publish on the site
[05:59] <popey> however there are only like 7 screencasts on there
[05:59] <popey> most important thing from my point of view is to make more of them :)
[05:59] <popey> if I remember rightly the two most popular are the installing dual boot, and burning ISOS
[06:00] <popey> right, i think we are out of time?
[06:00] <popey> thanks everyone!
[06:01] <dholbach> Hello everybody,
[06:01] <maxi_> So you see, I didn't run away, thx, another interesting hour in my boring live ;)
[06:01] <cellojoe> yo
[06:01] <dholbach> I'm Daniel Holbach, work for Canonical and joined the MOTU team around three years ago, when the team had ~5 members. Now we're up to 62 members.
[06:02] <dholbach> I work in a couple of different teams: Together with seb128 I work in the Desktop Team (which he'll give a session about on Thu 26th Apr at 20.00). For a couple of other teams I do packaging and try to organise them a bit: the Accessibility team, the Artwork team, the Telepathy team, the Bluetooth team, the Galago team, etc. I also work on bughelper with the BugSquad.
[06:03] <dholbach> If you have any questions, just ping me in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and I'll answer them as they come up
[06:03] <dholbach> MOTU stands for 'Masters Of The Universe' which originates from the Universe component, which holds the biggest amount of our packages. 'main' and 'restricted' are supported by Canonical, 'universe' and 'multiverse' by the community. 'main' and 'restricted' hold 5167 packages today and 'universe' plus 'multiverse' 16237. So as the name suggests, the MOTU team takes care of 'universe' (and 'multiverse' also).
 dholbach, is MOTU are for developers only?
[06:05] <dholbach> Belutz: we do packaging and bug fixing - some of these tasks are very easy - we also have MOTUs who like to do organisation and documentation - so there's a lot of tasks for everybody
 dholbach: QUESTION: accessibility is an important operating system component, what is Ubuntu's plans for further development?
[06:05] <dholbach> erstazi: you should talk to heno about that - he's the Accessibility lead and you should join the ubuntu-accessibility-devel@ list
[06:05] <dholbach> erstazi: this session will be more about MOTU
 dholbach, QUESTION: so what can a non-developer do to help the MOTU team and/or become a MOTU team member?
[06:06] <dholbach> Belutz: we have lots of tasks we work on - I'll lists a couple of them as we move along
 dholbach: QUESTION: Are any MOTUs paid canonical employees working on packages that will eventually be included in main?
[06:07] <dholbach> YokoZar: ogra and I started in the ranks of MOTUs and became Canonical employees
[06:07] <dholbach> YokoZar: lots of packages that started in Universe made their way into Main
[06:07] <dholbach> So what does a MOTU do?
[06:07] <dholbach> As a MOTU you're maintaining packages. Since we don't follow the concept of applying the rigorous big maintainer lock, it's your choice which package you take care of.
[06:08] <bogor> WOW, neat way to get a paid job
[06:08] <dholbach> We have people
[06:08] <dholbach>  * taking care only of 'their own packages'
[06:08] <dholbach>  * working together with others on a set of packages in a team
[06:08] <dholbach>  * fixing lots of different packages
[06:08] <dholbach> (* working on no packages at all)
[06:08] <dholbach> If you belong to the last category, this might be your first step in the Ubuntu Development Community. :-)
[06:08] <dholbach> So how do I become a MOTU?
[06:08] <dholbach> That's very easy. You basically contribute to the team's efforts, either by packaging a new piece of software or by helping with fixing / updating / merging existing packages.
[06:09] <dholbach> I personally always found the second way to be much easier and you learn a lot along the way. As a MOTU hopeful you're not allowed yet to upload to the archive yourself, but you can ask other team members to sponsor the upload for you. We have a lightweight process for that in place: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess
 QUESTION: why universe/multiverse doesnt contains all the programms with their mp3 component, e.g. to have mp3 support in ffmpeg requires to recompile it from source, could it be possible to have a mp3 enabled version in universe ?
[06:09] <dholbach> zorglu_: that's a legal question - you best ask our archive admins what is possible and what is not
[06:10] <dholbach> zorglu_: license problems and patent violations are huge problems we can't just ignore
[06:10] <dholbach> After a while of contributing, when you've become more comfortable with packaging, the processes and you've worked with a couple of people, you will hear that people are tired of uploading your packages and you should be able to do so yourself. :-)
[06:10] <zorglu_> dholbach: universe already contains all the mp3 stuff
[06:11] <zorglu_> lame mp3 encoder is in multiverse as an example. but ok i will ask
[06:11] <dholbach> zorglu_: I'm not a lawyer, so it's hard for me to judge - every new packages has to go past our archive admins - it's their call
[06:11] <dholbach> ubuntu-archive is the team in launchpad
[06:11] <dholbach> and I believe they have a mailing list as well
 dholbach: QUESTION: Hypothetically, the MOTU is already tired of uploading my packages for me.  Then what?
[06:11] <dholbach> It's easy to see that it's not just a matter of technically abilty, but also a matter of teamwork and trust. Once your mentors and people of the MOTU team are happy with you, they will tell you to apply to become a MOTU yourself. For that you write an application mail to the MOTU Council and if they're happy with you, they'll approve you. Find more info about that over here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Hopeful/Recruitment
 QUESTION: dholbach: Can you demonstrate the packaging process with an example?
[06:12] <dholbach> bogor: I'd prefer it the "packaging 101" session did that
[06:13] <dholbach> this session is more about how MOTU works and what they do, etc
[06:13] <dholbach> bogor: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Documentation has a few links, especially to the ubuntu packaging guide, which is easy to read and has examples as well
 dholbach: Question: what conditions must be complied for a package to get into the repository
[06:14] <dholbach> McKinney: it has to 1) meet basic packaging standards, 2) build nicely on the architectures it's supposed to, 3) have a nice and clean license, 4) build from source
 dholbach, QUESTION, there are a lots of packages in universe/multiverse, how do you manage all of them? how do you assign packages to MOTU members?
[06:15] <dholbach> Belutz: I don't assign them. We have a couple of teams who work on things they're interested in
[06:15] <dholbach> Belutz: also we get lots of fixes from the upstream authors and from the debian maintainers
[06:15] <dholbach> Belutz: and on top of that: the MOTU team has lots of hard working really good people
 QUESTION: In an average week, what part of the process do you spend most of your time on?
[06:16] <dholbach> t0lst0y: which process do you mean?
[06:16] <dholbach> ok, I move on
[06:16] <dholbach> Things the team does:
[06:16] <dholbach> We work on Bugs, just to put some numbers into the discussion:
[06:17] <dholbach>  * 18484 bugs in Universe/Multiverse    (96084 in Ubuntu total)
[06:17] <dholbach>  * 10380 closed bugs Universe/Multiverse (56612 closed in Ubuntu total)
[06:17] <dholbach> While the numbers look scary, here's a very good thing about working with the MOTUs: you're not alone. If you try to fix a bug in a package you have:
[06:17] <dholbach>  1) team members,
[06:17] <dholbach>  2) the Debian maintainer and
[06:17] <dholbach>  3) the upstream author
[06:17] <dholbach> you can ask and work with. Working on bugs is highly rewarding: sometimes it's a one line fix, you find in the upstream CVS already and you make a lot of users happy.
 dholbach: QUESTION: What must be done on a softwares source code before it can be packaged with deb helper (How are the MakeFiles etc generated)
[06:17] <dholbach> Demon012: that's usually something the upstream author does
[06:18] <dholbach> Demon012: sometimes you have to fix makefiles to make it work nicely for us, but usually you can just use the upstream source
 QUESTION: In terms of bug fixes versus research versus coding?
[06:18] <dholbach> t0lst0y: I spend a lot of my time on bug reports, triaging them, talking with the upstream developers about them, etc
[06:19] <dholbach> t0lst0y: quite a lot of my coding time I spend on the bughelper project (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugHelper)
 QUESTION: now that feisty is released and gutsy toolchain is released can people start adding stuff to revu? or is there a wait periode?
[06:19] <dholbach> poningru: no wait period at all - just go ahead and ask your mentor or your favourite motu to take a look at it
[06:20] <dholbach> some additions to that:
[06:20] <dholbach> Get new packages in!
[06:20] <dholbach> Ubuntu has become a great place for users. Lots of software is packaged already, but your personal pet project might be missing still. This also is a gratifying task, as you make many users happy by providing high-quality software in the archive.
[06:20] <dholbach> All NEW packages go through a review process, which currently happens on http://revu.tauware.de - this might change in the near future (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Processes/REVU). Reviewing is a great way to mentor, but also to learn, which leads us to our next point.
 QUESTION: could you describe what is REVU? :)
[06:20] <dholbach> gpocentek: :-)
 QUESTION: is there more we can do to attract more developers to help out with ubuntu/motu?
[06:20] <dholbach> mc44: good question
[06:21] <dholbach> mc44: I added two specs for UDS Sevilla about that
[06:21] <dholbach> one is about getting better documentation
[06:21] <dholbach> the other about improving our mentoring
[06:21] <dholbach> once we're better at that this will have the right multiplication effect :-)
 QUESTION: as a rules of thumbs, how long packages wait in the revu queue before being accepted ?
[06:22] <dholbach> zorglu_: that depends
[06:22] <zorglu_> an approximation ?
[06:22] <dholbach> zorglu_: as a package maintainer you need to be responsive on requests and ask people actively for reviews
[06:22] <dholbach> we have VERY old packages in REVU - that's because people didn't follow up on them
[06:22] <dholbach> REVU is somewhat of a bottleneck, but we have ideas to improve it
[06:23] <McKinney> dholbach: Question: for example i am currently using a debian-package of gxine because the package from the repository freezes when i want to resize the window a movie is played in. i already reported the bug on launchpad but it is still not fixed. how long does it usually take to eliminate such bugs?
[06:23] <DarkSun88> 7B7B7B7B7B[#ubuntu-classro]  3A3A3A3A3A3A3A3A3A3A3B3B3B3B3B3B3B3B3B3B3B3B3B3B3B3B3B
[06:23] <dholbach> we had packages that went in after a few days
[06:23] <dholbach> but also packages that took much much longer
[06:23] <dholbach> McKinney: if you have a fix ready, http://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess is what you want
[06:24] <dholbach> a lot of the problems you have in becoming part of the development community is talking to the right people and attracing the right people's interest in something
[06:24] <dholbach> there's a Media team, there's also the team that takes care of pending patches that are considered for upload
 dholbach: [12:19:53]  <Demon012> QUESTION: Is there a checklist for triaging?
[06:25] <dholbach> for general bug triage you might want to read http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
 dholbach: What about independent software vendors?  Is there any official process to help them create packages that play nice with universe (and perhaps eachother), even if the software can't go into universe?
[06:25] <dholbach> YokoZar: we have the commercial repository as well - I think that Malcom Yates (mdy) is a good person to talk to about that
[06:26] <dholbach> Teams
[06:26] <dholbach> MOTU has formed a huge bunch of subteams already:
[06:26] <dholbach>  * Games team
[06:26] <dholbach>  * Media team
[06:26] <dholbach>  * Science team
[06:26] <dholbach>  * Photo team
[06:26] <dholbach>  * UncommonProgrammingLanguages team
[06:26] <dholbach>  * <and lots of others>
[06:26] <dholbach> Some of the teams, which started in Universe, but now are working across the whole distro, the Mono team is a good example for that. If you have good ideas for a team and want to kickstart it, let me know: dholbach@ubuntu.com
[06:26] <dholbach> jono will be able to help out as well.
[06:27] <dholbach> Transitions! That's usually an easy way to get involved.
[06:27] <dholbach> In order to use a new technology consistently across the whole archive, we sometimes need to change several hundreds of packages. This is gratifying work also, as it's sometimes easy to do and nice to do this within a team. Good examples of this were:
[06:27] <dholbach>  * the switch from python2.3 to python2.4 (as a default)
[06:27] <dholbach>  * the use of gcc4
[06:27] <dholbach>  * the transition to use Xorg
[06:27] <dholbach>  * ...
[06:27] <dholbach> We used to have  H U G E   working lists on the wiki, nowadays we often use Malone to keep track of these.
[06:28] <dholbach> We usually announce them on ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com - so if you're following that list, you can help out there easily.
 dholbach: QUESTION: I found out yesterday that the packages are all source files in the repositories. How does proprietory software like Vmware get handled?
[06:28] <dholbach> Demon012: we prefer source packages
[06:28] <dholbach> Demon012: but if we have binaries that are redistributable we sometimes do that as well
[06:29] <dholbach> Demon012: again - please refer to the ubuntu-archive team; they know better what is acceptable and what not
 dholbach: QUESTION: Lets say I made a program, how do I get it inside the Ubuntu Universe repo?
[06:29] <dholbach> emet: if you plan to do the packaging yourself, you'd follow the REVU process I mentioned above
[06:30] <dholbach> emet: if you'd prefer somebody else to do it, let me quote:
[06:30] <dholbach> [WWW]  file a bug in Launchpad and make sure it has the tag [WWW]  needs-packaging. Make sure you check which [WWW]  packages have already been requested. For packages in Debian, but not in ubuntu [WWW]  file a bug with the summary field "please sync package <packagename> from debian <distro>" where packagename is the package you would like to see.
[06:30] <dholbach> that's from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/Candidates
[06:31] <dholbach> Mentoring
[06:31] <dholbach> We're doing huge efforts at helping people get up to scratch on packaging, especially #ubuntu-motu on irc.freenode.net is always buzzing and somebody is always awake to answer *your* packaging question.
[06:31] <dholbach> But mentoring also happens on our ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com mailing list, in private chats, by doing reviews of packages and patches or via mail. Don't hesitate to approach us, join the Master of the Universe today! :-)
[06:31] <dholbach> The team is also working out details to refine the process and make it easier for MOTU hopefuls and future mentors. We'll have a session at UDS about that: https://blueprints.beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/better-mentoring so if you're in Sevilla at that time, join in, if not add your ideas to the wiki page. We'll also work on getting a Mentoring mailing list ready.
[06:32] <dholbach> Keep the questions coming in. :-)
[06:32] <dholbach> Moving on to Merges
[06:32] <dholbach> In the beginning of each release cycle we merge our efforts with those of the Debian maintainers. So this is what we currently do for Gutsy.
[06:33] <dholbach> If you want to help out, just grab a merge from http://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html or http://merges.ubuntu.com/multiverse.html and go ahead (NOTE: they are currently being updated and reworked, so in a few days they should be fine).
[06:33] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Merging and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/Merging-and-Syncing also have more information on that process.
 dholbach, QUESTIONS: is MOTU the one decided which version of apps that goes to repos?
[06:33] <dholbach> Belutz: that's a two stage process: first MOTUs will review your package and upload it if they're ok with it; after that it has to pass the archive-admins
[06:34] <dholbach> they can still reject it; not only if the license is problematic
[06:34] <dholbach> but rejects mostly happen because of re-distributability
[06:35] <dholbach> MOTU School
[06:35] <dholbach> In the spirit of the Ubuntu's Open Week we already had some interesting MOTU School sessions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School - if you want to hold a session or request a session, let us know on the mailing list and on the wiki pages.
[06:35] <dholbach> (also if you want to give a session :-))
[06:35] <dholbach> Documentation!
[06:36] <dholbach> Jordan Mantha (laserjock) and others have worked hard on the Packaging Guide, but they'd always be glad to have people who are interested in explaining and helping new MOTU hopefuls to find their way into the community. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Documentation lists a few pages of interest.
[06:36] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU and its subpages could also do with some helping hands. MOTU is a community effort and has grown into all sorts of directions over time, the wiki pages bear witness of that, so it'd be great if you'd fix whatever documentation you found inaccurate. At UDS we're going to work on that too: https://blueprints.beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/motu-wiki-cleanup
 dholbach, for example, sylpheed-claws is now claws-mail, and it has been a while before feisty release, but in feisty repos, is still using sylpheed-claws instead of claws-mail, and i believe claws-mail is already stable in ubuntu. Is that part of MOTU process or archive admin?
[06:36] <dholbach> Belutz: are they both in Ubuntu already?
[06:37] <dholbach> Belutz: and one could be replaced with the other?
[06:37] <dholbach> that's an archive-admin decision then
[06:37] <dholbach> mostly it's wise to also check what the Debian maintainer does
[06:37] <dholbach> if they decide to go with a different name and you use the same name, you can do syncs of the source package more easily
[06:38] <dholbach> Belutz: did I get your question right?
 dholbach, the claws-mail is not in repo anyway, and i still find some old version apps in repos like gnucash, but maybe it's the archive admin decision then :)
[06:38] <dholbach> Belutz: if the version is old, that's not a archive admin job
[06:39] <dholbach> Belutz: up until UpstreamVersionFreeze (UVF) we can upload new versions as we see fit
[06:39] <dholbach> see http://wiki.ubuntu.com/GutsyReleaseSchedule for that
[06:39] <dholbach> after that you need to get approval
[06:39] <dholbach> the NEW package of course is an archive admin thing
[06:40] <dholbach> Who of you could imagine joining the MOTUs anytime soon?
 dholbach: QUESTION: My package gets updated every two weeks.  What's the absolute latest update I can submit that will get into the release?
[06:40] <alterlaszlo> I would like to!
[06:40] <dholbach> YokoZar: we need to make sure the software we upload can be tested realistically
[06:41] <dholbach> YokoZar: uploading a new wine package with 1000s of lines of changes a week before release does not work out
 I would love to join MOTU but I just haven't got enough programming knowledege....
[06:42] <dholbach> PriceChild and everybody else who'd like to join in: don't let the "programming skills" thing intimidate you: if you're truly interested in helping out, in packaging, fixing bugs and talking to upstream about them, trying patches, etc, you'll learn a lot along the way and are absolutely right for the job :)
 dholbach, so how do you maintain a package (still using claws-mail as example), do you have to get in touch with the claws-mail developers? and how do you know that there are a new version of a package? do you have to search for it or how? sorry i ask a lot, because i'm still blur with the MOTU process
[06:43] <dholbach> good question
[06:43] <dholbach> being in touch with upstream is a VERY good thing
[06:43] <dholbach> bear in mind that maintaining is not only about 'uploading a new upstream version' every now and then
[06:43] <dholbach> it's also about reading bug reports from our users
[06:44] <dholbach> trying to fix them, forwarding them to upstream etc etc
[06:44] <dholbach> you do want a good relationship with them, as they can help you to do things like: 1) write debugging documentation for the bug squad, 2) enable the right options by default, 3) discuss our and their release schedule, etc etc
[06:45] <YokoZar> dholbach: I could speak to that, coming from upstream myself.  There are 30+ active, full time Wine developers, and right now I'm the only guy reading the bug reports in launchpad (or user complaints on the forum) and forwarding them where appropriate.
[06:45] <dholbach> YokoZar: thanks a lot for that
 dholbach, for a packages that have problems with dependecies, is it MOTU jobs to fix it? or the packages developer?
[06:46] <dholbach> Belutz: dependencies are a packaging problem, which should be fixed by its maintainer or a MOTU, yes
[06:46] <dholbach> somtimes you can work around dependencies on a source code level but you rarely need to do that
[06:46] <dholbach> it's more about changing the right bits in the debian/ dir of the source package
[06:47] <dholbach> for those of you who want to become members of the MOTUs, please check http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Mentors
[06:47] <dholbach> and don't be shy to ask questions
[06:47] <YokoZar> Launchpad's "link to upstream bug" feature is particularly useful, especially because it lets the upstream bughunters find people's fixes in Ubuntu itself.  For a project as large and complex as Wine, there's also a surprising amount of effort that needs to go into making sure it still builds right in Ubuntu (Wine comes out every two weeks, and over half of my changelog entries are things other than "new upstream version")
[06:48] <dholbach> we have lots of bugs to work on: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Bugs
[06:48] <Clemens>  /msg nickserv register Clem92 xxspkezi
[06:49] <dholbach> also there are lots of packaging requests open: https://bugs.beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=needs-packaging
 dholbach: QUESTION: Earlier, you said you used to just be a regular MOTU and then became a canonical employee.  Were you approached by Canonical for paid work, or did you apply?  How long did it take?
[06:49] <dholbach> I talked to Mark at that time and approached him about it and had a job interview, etc
[06:50] <dholbach> I don't know how long it took, but I could find out reading old mails if you really want to know :)
 dholbach, for a new member who do not know enough about programming, who do you recommend as a mentor?
[06:50] <dholbach> Belutz: the mentoring page I suggested lists a few people who are willing to mentor
[06:51] <dholbach> if you like to make things work and have a natural curiosity, you're right in the team :)
[06:51] <dholbach> you can also mail ubuntu-motu@ and ask for a mentor
[06:51] <dholbach> we'll try to have a mentoring mailing list online soon and will announce it
 dholbach: How long were you an MOTU before you did it full time?  Was it within a single release?  Or like years?
[06:52] <dholbach> YokoZar: let's have this discussion in private - I don't mind talking about it publically, but I don't think it has much to do with joining the MOTU team
[06:52] <dholbach> any other questions?
[06:53] <dholbach> sorry, for the '.beta' in the launchpad link
 dholbach QUESTION: on avg. how much time would you say a MOTU invests in packaging/etc.?
[06:53] <dholbach> adamant1988: we have some MOTUs who just spend bits of a week on making sure the packages they work on work correclty
[06:54] <dholbach> adamant1988: there's also nothing wrong with saying 'I don't have time in the next half of the year'
[06:54] <dholbach> adamant1988: but we also have people who you can find nearly 24h in #ubuntu-motu ;-)
[06:54] <dholbach> I'll disregard elkbuntu's question ;-)
[06:54] <dholbach> elkbuntu: thanks for the flowers :)
[06:54] <elkbuntu> awww :
 dholbach: QUESTION: Are backports maintained by the MOTU team directly, or coordination with a special backports person?
[06:54] <dholbach> YokoZar: we have a backports team who does the processing
[06:55] <dholbach> YokoZar: they usually take the build from the new ubuntu release, make sure it builds nicely on the old release, it installs, etc etc and then process it
 QUESTION: How does MOTU ensure that a package does not contain dangerous code?
[06:56] <dholbach> _emet_: we are always wary of code that gets installed to /usr/sbin and the archive-admins also check the code roughly
[06:56] <elkbuntu> :D
[06:57] <dholbach> If you arrived a bit late for the session, Steven Harms will do another session on Thu 26th Apr 16:00 UTC. Thanks Steven!
[06:57] <dholbach> if there are no more questions... :)
[06:58] <dholbach> drop me a mail if you want to know anything about the MOTUs or are interested in joining the team
[06:58] <dholbach> (ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com should work too)
[06:58] <dholbach> Have a nice day.
 dholbach: BONUS QUESTION: Has anyone from whomever owns the comic ever officially complained about the name "masters of the universe" ? ;)
[06:58] <dholbach> no, luckily they did not :)
 dholbach: QUESTION: does drum and bass aid with packaging? :p
[07:00] <dholbach> mc44: it absolutely does - it gets me right on track :)
[07:01] <dholbach> mc44: http://daniel.holba.ch/blog/?cat=12 :-)
[07:01] <dholbach> see you
[07:07] <sabdfl> morning/afternoon/evening all
[07:07] <sabdfl> sorry for my tardiness, schedule-itis
[07:08] <sabdfl> ok! this is a Q&A session
[07:08] <sabdfl> so please fire away
[07:09] <sabdfl> will someone volunteer to act as a secretary and keep track of questions?
 QUESTION: Does Ubuntu have any plans to join forces with other Linux distributions, vendors and companies and together put some pressure on software companies and and offer them help so that they would port some of the most popular applications (like Photoshop, AutoCAD, ...) to Linux?
[07:09] <sabdfl> PriceChild, JLP: we do already meet with ISV's, and encourage them to port to Linux
[07:09] <sabdfl> they always take a business view of the market opportunity
[07:09] <sabdfl> that's a factor of two things
[07:10] <sabdfl> the raw number of users, and the willingness of those users to pay for software
[07:10] <sabdfl> on the raw number, linux is doing very well
[07:10] <sabdfl> so hardware folks are starting to take notice
[07:11] <sabdfl> but on the ISV front, it's more challenging
[07:11] <sabdfl> many folks are on free software in part because they do not have to pay
[07:11] <sabdfl> there are some niche markets where that's not true - mostly places where Linux was a lower-cost (but not free) alternative to UNIX
[07:11] <sabdfl> like workstations
[07:12] <sabdfl> graphics, CAD, movie animation and effects etc
[07:12] <sabdfl> but for raw consumers, i think the free software community should assume that we are going to have to build our own leaders in each of the major software categories
[07:12] <sabdfl> because, unless something changes and linux users start to be willing to pay for apps, the ISV's are unlikely to port
[07:12] <sabdfl> next?
 sabdfl QUESTION: What are Canonical and Ubuntu doing to ensure enterprise quality in the Ubuntu Linux distribution? Are there any plan to include more 'user friendly' modifications to gnome (ala SLED), interoperability work, etc.?
[07:13] <sabdfl> two separate questions, i'll address them separately
[07:13] <sabdfl> on the quality front, i'm very excited about apport, and really want to credit pitti and the dev team with that infrastructure
[07:13] <sabdfl> we are working to make it something that can be deployed for stable releases as well as development releases
[07:14] <sabdfl> this will give us real stats as to places where apps break the most
[07:14] <sabdfl> and allow us to improve the quality of packages after release on a systematic basis
[07:14] <sabdfl> i'm also really pleased at the community iso testing effort, and the hardware database
[07:14] <sabdfl> those are examples of places people can contribute to ensure that the whole platform works well
[07:15] <sabdfl> and then we are working on per-package testing frameworks
[07:15] <sabdfl> we have to figure out how to make those work well in the whole debian universe too
[07:15] <sabdfl> on the user-friendly desktop mods front, we'll happily bring in work from other distros if it's a genuine improvement
[07:16] <sabdfl> upstream's willingness to consider the patches is of course the acid test
[07:16] <sabdfl> but we would bring something in that upstream was not yet ready for if we were really convinced ourselves
[07:16] <sabdfl> if you think there are items that really should be included, then (a) make sure they are packages byworking with -core-dev or -motu
[07:16] <sabdfl> and (b) participate in the ubuntu dev summit, in person or by voip, to motivate for their inclusion
[07:16] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: Mark, recently you told in an interview "the time for mass consumer sales of Linux on the desktop has not yet come". What do you think, when is the time for linux on the desktop? One year, two years, many more years? On what it will depend how quick the time comes?
[07:17] <sabdfl> before mass consumer sales, we will see targeted niche markets
[07:17] <sabdfl> so, for example, right now workstations are a Linux-heavy market
[07:17] <sabdfl> i think there are some other specific markets that can be targeted
[07:18] <sabdfl> in emerging markets, for example, price is a huge driver
[07:18] <sabdfl> so we see people in brazil, china, africa etc being genuinely interested in linux
[07:18] <sabdfl> not just in linux-before-priated-windows
[07:18] <sabdfl> s/priated/pirated/
[07:18] <sabdfl> and in the west, people have said very loudly they want it, we just need to figure out how to reach JUST those folks, and not accidental windows users
[07:19] <sabdfl> sorry, windows users who accidentally buy linux
[07:19] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: Mark, what do you think about the latest MS 3$ initiative?
[07:19] <sabdfl> clever move
[07:19] <sabdfl> http://www.manilastandardtoday.com/?page=business6_april24_2007
[07:19] <sabdfl> ^^^ he gets it
[07:19] <sabdfl> free software is a far better platform for education than the $3 offer
[07:20] <sabdfl>  - far more applications, means you can teach many more things with technology, not just word processing and spreadsheets
[07:21] <sabdfl> for example, databases, programming languages, art apps, music, astronomy, statistics... you name it
[07:21] <sabdfl>  - source code, means you can learn far more about how that technology works, important for super-star students who will rocket ahead of even their teachers
[07:21] <sabdfl> - localisations, means you can teach in your n indigenous languages
[07:22] <sabdfl> in short, education departments that really care about education have lots of reasons to choose free software rather than the cheap (and usage-limited) windows offer
[07:22] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: Mark, will exist in the future a certification relased by Canonical, like RedHat Certified Professional?
[07:22] <sabdfl> remix_tj: yes!
[07:22] <sabdfl> alon with training programs, and training materials
[07:22] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: How do you plan to make money out of launchpad? Is it generating revenue for you already?
[07:23] <sabdfl> mc44: the first step will be to make it possible for people to subscribe and get the ability to annotate almost any data in LP, privately
[07:23] <sabdfl> so, for example, private bugs, private specs, private branches
[07:24] <sabdfl> then, we will also host other distributions that are ubuntu derivatives, so we handle all the building and archive management for them
[07:24] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: Kubuntu is a great distro but (IMHO) lacks polish and features compared to Ubuntu. Are there any plans to bring in more paid Kubuntu developers now or in the future?
[07:25] <sabdfl> stuart_: yes, the kubuntu team will expand, but i think kubuntu will always be more independent of canonical, which is in many was a good thing
[07:25] <sabdfl> somethings happen first in ubuntu, because that's where we focus our resources for new releases, other things happen first in kubuntu, because the decisions there are more bottom-up
[07:26] <sabdfl> next question?
 sabdfl: QUESTION: in last time there are discussions that ubuntu should not be released every 6 month. you shoult give the developers more time. what do you think about it?
[07:26] <sabdfl> McKinney: i think the current system, of 6-month releases with LTS releases every 2-3 years, will work well
[07:26] <sabdfl> there are no discussions or plans to change that at the moment
[07:26] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: What do you think about use of proprietary software in education? Shouldn't it be just a _privilege_ for software developers to provide SW for education without having any direct profits?
[07:27] <sabdfl> kwah: no
[07:27] <sabdfl> there's nothing wrong with the profit motive, unless society lets it run amok
[07:27] <sabdfl> regulation is supposed to ensure that every business has checks and balances
[07:27] <sabdfl> competition does the same
[07:28] <sabdfl> i think it's naive to disregard the value of self-motivated investment
[07:28] <sabdfl> i have no problem with proprietary software - microsoft has every reason to charge me to use software they wrote
[07:28] <sabdfl> but i think the free software community can produce better software
[07:29] <sabdfl> and i choose to use that instead
[07:29] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: Any rough numbers on how many *buntu machines there are running in the world currently?
[07:29] <sabdfl> 4-16 million, my best guess including derivatives is around 10 million
[07:30] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: Did you have anything to do with Michael Dell running Feisty on his home laptop?
[07:30] <sabdfl> no - i was as surprised as everyone else
[07:30] <sabdfl> a good surprise, though :-)
[07:30] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: How are we doing on the bug 1 front?
[07:31] <sabdfl> tsmithe: quite well I think. i'm seeing a lot of people who are NOT tech specialists talking about linux
[07:31] <sabdfl> and who knows, perhaps ubuntu will shortly be available from your favourite source of PC's!
[07:32] <sabdfl> how do YOU think we're doing on the Bug #1 front?
[07:32] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: ShipIt is currently not available fr Xubuntu... will that also come for Xubuntu in the next time?
[07:32] <sabdfl> Clem92: i don't think so
[07:33] <sabdfl> xubuntu, as i understand it, is a more specialist environment, so we probably would not fund cd shipments for it
[07:33] <sabdfl> it's hard to justify on either philanthropic or business grounds
[07:33] <sabdfl> though it would be nice at least if you could order xubuntu
[07:33] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: where do you see Linux virtualization 3 years down the road?
[07:33] <sabdfl> zul: i'd really like to see a free software solution that is comprehensive, stable and fast
[07:34] <sabdfl> i'm pressed with the diversity of options
[07:34] <sabdfl> xen, of course, and kvm and then container-style things like vServer and others
[07:34] <sabdfl> *im*pressed, i should say
[07:34] <sabdfl> now we need those to mature
[07:35] <sabdfl> i hope ubuntu will be a good place for people to test those, as well as a good place for people to run things like vmware if they want
[07:35] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: if a loco are creating a nation wide event, is it possible that we ask canonical for sponsor (aside from conference kits)?
[07:35] <sabdfl> ask of course! we haven't sponsored anything like that before, but it is possible
[07:35] <sabdfl> so feel free to make a case for it
[07:35] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: why is launchpad a proprietary software?
[07:36] <sabdfl> ryuujin_: several reasons
[07:36] <sabdfl> first, it's worth pointing out that we fund a huge amount of GPL software development
[07:36] <sabdfl> so LP is not non-free because we don't know any better in general
[07:37] <sabdfl> we've thought about it very carefully
[07:37] <sabdfl> the major reason is that LP is explicitly a short-term, WRONG solution to the problem
[07:37] <sabdfl> the problem is a lack of information flow between projects
[07:37] <sabdfl> the right solution, from an engineering perspective, is a federated, distributed, standards-based approach
[07:38] <sabdfl> where data from bugzilla flows to LP, and into debbugs, and into roundup, and into sourceforge
[07:38] <sabdfl> then everyone uses their preferred tools, and the data just migrates as needed
[07:38] <sabdfl> but, we couldn't wait for that to happen, so we wrote a tool for ubuntu that new how to link to other tools
[07:38] <sabdfl> it's centralised
[07:38] <sabdfl> now, if there were MULTIPLE tools like that, it would divide the eyeballs interested in agregating this information
[07:39] <sabdfl> so, imaging you have a bug, reported in ubuntu, debian, upstream and gentoo
[07:39] <sabdfl> with LP, someone from each community just has to annotate it once, saying "our bug tracker knows about that issue, and we are tracking it as #324342"
[07:39] <sabdfl> if there were multiple LP's, people would have to do that work multiple times
[07:39] <sabdfl> the result would be a mess
[07:40] <sabdfl> you would not have 1 bug number for 1 problem
[07:40] <sabdfl> no more Bug #1!
[07:40] <sabdfl> so that's the major issue
[07:40] <sabdfl> we have released bits of code that we thought WOULD be useful to other communities
[07:40] <sabdfl> either infrastructure stuff (Zope, SQLObject, translation bits etc)
[07:40] <sabdfl> or app stuff
[07:41] <sabdfl> we do have a plan to get to a point where we can GPL it
[07:41] <sabdfl> but that involves a lot of work, and i think it will take time, i don't want anyone to expect it to be free in 2-3 years even
[07:41] <sabdfl> but we're working to that roadmap, and will hopefully get there
[07:41] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION:  Do you have any opinions you'd like to share about the progress of GPL v3.0?
[07:42] <sabdfl> only that i think it's important work, and a good transparent process, and I really hope they come to a result that the community embraces wholeheartedly, even Linus
[07:42] <sabdfl> from the drafts, we're not there yet
[07:42] <sabdfl> i do trust both rms and eben moglen
[07:43] <sabdfl> when v3 is out, we'll take a decision about the code we have copyright in
[07:43] <sabdfl> ultimately, though ubuntu is an aggregated work of hundreds of items under many licences
[07:43] <sabdfl> so that will remain true :-)
[07:43] <sabdfl> next question?
 There is a strong chance that Wine will come out of beta sometime during Gutsy or Gutsy+1's development.  In the past several distributions (Corel, for instance) have included supported versions of Wine officially, to make other applications easily ported to their platform. This would allow Ubuntu to support the installation of Win32 software, both free and proprietary, via something like Add Applications or Click and R
[07:43] <PriceChild> un.  What do you think of the idea?
[07:44] <sabdfl> interesting
[07:44] <sabdfl> i admire the WINE effort, hugely
[07:44] <sabdfl> i think it's important
[07:44] <sabdfl> but i don't think that the future of free software lies in running non-free software!
[07:44] <sabdfl> we should definitely discuss it at the UDS, so please come along, and remind me to invite the WINE guys too
[07:44] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: Mark, good evening :) What is the best way to convince companies (who are providing DC services) to switch from regular RHEL or SLES/Novell Business Server  to Ubuntu Server, especially when you think about Oracles turn towards it's own Linux solution?
[07:45] <sabdfl> DC services?
[07:45] <sabdfl> you mean large-scale hosted servers?
[07:45] <\sh> sabdfl, DC == Datacenter :)
[07:45] <sabdfl> it would be great if folks running huge data centers adopted ubuntu
[07:45] <sabdfl> salesforce would be awesome
[07:46] <sabdfl> ebay, amazon etc
[07:46] <sabdfl> i think they would have a great experience, save money but still get great support
[07:46] <sabdfl> are you asking becuase you know such a company?
[07:47] <sabdfl> ok, i'll assume so
[07:47] <\sh> sabdfl, in general...most companies are using RHEL or SLES because they are oracle certified...now oracle comes up with its own linux solution...how to convince our bosses that ubuntu is better
[07:47] <sabdfl> ah, right
[07:47] <sabdfl> well, the oracle test is one we have to pass, and we will do so eventually
[07:47] <sabdfl> unfortunately, oracle's strategy means they will likely not look at the hard data showing rapid adoption of ubuntu in the wild
[07:48] <sabdfl> because they want to see adoption of Unbreakable Linux (UBL)
[07:48] <sabdfl> i tihnk they could have done UBL around Ubuntu and had a much better result already
[07:48] <sabdfl> but they decided to do it as a RHAT clone
[07:48] <sabdfl> we just have to be patient and keep growing elsewhere
[07:49] <sabdfl> if you know a company that has a large data center, its worth asking them to find a niche area where they can test ubuntu
[07:49] <sabdfl> usually they will do this in low-risk areas
[07:49] <sabdfl> like web farms, or redundant compute farms
[07:49] <sabdfl> and when they have a good experience there, they will often expand their use
[07:49] <sabdfl> and put pressure on the ISV's they deal with to certify the platform
[07:49] <sabdfl> a foot in the door is all it takes
[07:49] <sabdfl> so try to find a low-risk area where they can try it
[07:50] <sabdfl> next question?
[07:50] <PriceChild> <[doctor] > QUESTION: Mark, what do you think about interaction at a level of the governments (Russia & East Europe) for distribution edubuntu. Any plans?
[07:50] <sabdfl> well, Georgia has already done a large program like that
[07:50] <sabdfl> i think Armenia is looking at the same
[07:50] <sabdfl> i do expect others to follow
[07:51] <sabdfl> and we will work with any government that wants consulting and customisation help
[07:51] <sabdfl> next question?
 sabdfl: QUESTION:  In a recent interview you spoke about using a Web 2.0 to harness the power of user data/input.  Do you see a place for that within the Ubuntu Community?  For example an Ubuntu Community Space that serves as a front end to that data mining process.
[07:51] <sabdfl> the ubuntu forums and ubuntu wiki are already an amazing resource for users
[07:51] <sabdfl> it's incredible, the knowledge that is encapsulated there
[07:52] <sabdfl> we are also seeing amazing work in the ubuntu question-and-answer tracker
[07:52] <sabdfl> which formalises community support for the platform
[07:52] <sabdfl> and builds a knowledgebase
[07:52] <sabdfl> https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[07:53] <sabdfl> there is a superb team building there
[07:53] <sabdfl> i'm open to other suggestions too!
[07:53] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: What OS do you use on your PCs at home and at work? Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Debian, etc?
[07:53] <imbrandon> ( just a small note , you can poke me later about \sh , our company runs one of the largest PCI DC's in the USA and we're phasing out all our CentOS in favor of Ubuntu )
[07:53] <sabdfl> imbrandon: would they consider being part of a case study?
[07:53] <imbrandon> definately
[07:54] <sabdfl> Clem92: i use ubuntu on my laptop, kubuntu on my desktop, i also have a MacOS PPC machine at home
[07:54] <sabdfl> and i've seen vista running in a virtual machine, but never for very long :-)
[07:54] <sabdfl> next question?
 sabdfl QUESTION:  I think we all recognize Canonical ltd.'s importance to the Ubuntu project's continued growth and prosperity, however Canonical remains a mysterious figure to Ubuntu users because it is a private corporation.  I'm sure many users of Ubuntu are concerned with Canonical's financials (profit, etc.) and would like to invest (read: buy stock) in the company.  Are there any plans to 'go public', if not w
[07:54] <PriceChild> hy?
[07:55] <sabdfl> no plans to go public at this stage, though it's nice to have lots of VC's expressing interest
[07:55] <sabdfl> i don't want to take a short-term view, and the markets ultimately force you into that
[07:56] <sabdfl> it's rare to find public companies that don't have that pressure, or even VC-funded private companies, and right now we have the luxury of having plenty of funding and a long-term mandate to change the economics of the software industry in a profound, philanthropic and commercial way
[07:56] <sabdfl> we are slowly building up a revenue stream in canonical, all of which gets reinvested in ubuntu
[07:57] <sabdfl> my dream is to build something unique: a genuinely free platform, that PAYS FOR ITSELF
[07:57] <sabdfl> that has never existed before, but i believe it can exist, and our goal is to find out
[07:58] <sabdfl> at the same time, canonical and ubuntu are separate entities
[07:58] <sabdfl> other companies are starting to invest in ubuntu too
[07:58] <sabdfl> sometimes via canonical (contracts for development, ports etc)
[07:58] <sabdfl> and sometimes directly (hiring developers and getting them to spend time on ubuntu or kubuntu)
[07:58] <sabdfl> ubuntu is bigger than canonical, and that's a very good thing
[07:58] <sabdfl> it would be nice to have more non-canonical people in the CC and techboard
[07:59] <sabdfl> nobody can buy their way onto those
 QUESTION: where do you see Ubuntu in 10 or 20 years?
[07:59] <sabdfl> but as more companies devote full-time engineers to ubuntu, it's more likely that they will be able to build the necessary experience and credibility to hold a seat their on their own merits
[08:00] <sabdfl> erstazi: that's a very long time, my crystal ball gets all cloudy :-)
[08:00] <sabdfl> right now, the goal is (a) be the best free software desktop possible, and (b) work towards being sustainable without licence fees
[08:00] <sabdfl> that's all i can see!
[08:00] <sabdfl> next question?
[08:01] <PriceChild> I hadn't prepared another question as we've reached the end of the hour already!
[08:01] <sabdfl> is it kiko-time?
[08:01] <PriceChild> Thanks very much sabdfl
[08:01] <sabdfl> kikomatic, you're up
[08:01] <sabdfl> thanks everybody, great questions!
[08:01] <PriceChild> Thankyou everyone else for all your questions!
[08:01] <PriceChild> I'm sorry we get you answers all of them
[08:01] <kiko> hello hello
[08:02] <mc44> sabdfl: thanks for your time
[08:02] <kiko> hello hello
[08:02] <McKinney> thank you sabdfl
[08:02] <kiko> and welcome to one more round of Launchpad Q&A :)
[08:02] <PriceChild> kiko we can stay +m if you would like?
[08:02] <suzan> thanks a lot, it was very interessting
[08:02] <hendrixski> Thanks sabdfl that was amazing
[08:02] <kiko> PriceChild, that's fine if people post me questions on theparate chat channel
[08:02] <kiko> err
[08:02] <kiko> separate chat channel :)
[08:03] <PriceChild> kiko "/mode +m" if you want to stop people chatting in here... I'm afraid I've got to run for 30 minutes, good luck!
[08:03] <ogra> PriceChild, topic update ?
[08:03] <Tm_T> PriceChild: thanks for your time once again :)
[08:04] <ogra> :)
[08:04] <kiko> thanks to everyone for showing up
[08:04] <kiko> it's always hard speaking /after/ mark :)
[08:05] <imbrandon> :)
[08:05] <kiko> I run the Launchpad project, together with Steve Alexander, my alter ego currently in Amsterdam
[08:05] <kiko> we have a team of 20+ developers building features, ensuring quality and planning ahead
[08:06] <kiko> in previous sessions I've done a lot of covering the basics
[08:06] <kiko> explaining why we are doing Launchpad
[08:06] <kiko> what it's useful for
[08:06] <kiko> why we think it is key to collaboration in open source
[08:06] <kiko> given this is a Q&A session, however, you get to choose what I explain :)
[08:07] <kiko> so post your questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[08:07] <kiko> and I will do my best to cook up good answers to them
[08:07] <kiko> and if they are not good, well.. I can blame brazilian narcotics!
[08:07] <kiko> ditsch posted an interesting question:
[08:07] <kiko> Are there plans to merge the answers section with forums or mailing lists?That would be nice since the answers section is not that common to users, I think.
[08:08] <kiko> there are plans to integrate mailing lists as a Launchpad offering
[08:08] <kiko> we haven't considered yet the link to the specific applications
[08:08] <kiko> and I'm not sure it would be easy to find a trivial link to the answer tracker because of the way the questions and answers are posted.
[08:09] <kiko> perhaps it is possible to model the individual conversations as threads
[08:09] <kiko> and offering a mailing list digest of the questions and answers.
[08:09] <kiko> it's a possibility. however, note that the answer tracker offers a full email interface
[08:09] <kiko> meaning that questions posted can be replied to via email
[08:09] <kiko> and the answers are handled properly
[08:10] <kiko> so there is something of the convenience of a mailing list there -- albeit not with mbox exports
[08:11] <kiko> okay, I have a controversial question by laszlok :)
[08:11] <kiko> If there's a bug for launchpad that's being ignored for whatever reason (you guys are probably very busy) is there anything else a launchpad user (with programming skills) can do? Do I have to wait for one you guys to get around to deal with my small bug? Theres a lot of small things that could easily improve launchpad, but most of you guys seem busy with more important things.
[08:11] <kiko> so this is actually a shortcoming in our development process
[08:11] <kiko> and one which we are seriously intending to address
[08:12] <kiko> now so far we have been working hard to produce a feature-complete 1.0 release
[08:12] <kiko> based on an original roadmap that mark and the team put together over 2 years ago
[08:13] <kiko> (I'm thinking about the answer :)
[08:13] <kiko> so we are working hard to put in place a better release process for launchpad
[08:13] <kiko> up to now we have been really chasing hard our feature list
[08:13] <kiko> but we are now at a point where the releases will be publically planned ahead
[08:14] <kiko> and a clear roadmap will be made available so that people can check what we are doing.
[08:14] <kiko> I also want to point out that you /can/ as a user hop on to #launchpad and provide us with advice
[08:14] <kiko> and suggestions to fix ou favorite bugs
[08:15] <kiko> your favorite bugs
[08:16] <kiko> another question from DoctorOwl
[08:16] <kiko> QUESTION: Is Launchpad only for projects that run on Ubuntu?  And if not, how would you compare it to another offering like Sourceforge?
[08:17] <kiko> Launchpad is definitely /not/ for Ubuntu only!
[08:17] <kiko> Ubuntu was our first official user
[08:17] <kiko> and definitely one of the most important
[08:17] <kiko> however
[08:17] <kiko> there are many projects, large and small, that are adopting Launchpad
[08:17] <kiko> you can use as much as Launchpad as you like
[08:18] <kiko> if you want to try out the bug tracker, you can do so without committing to doing translations or answer tracking
[08:18] <kiko> so it is really a lot easier that taking up a whole new project management system
[08:18] <kiko> some of our newest and more visible projects include Zope and Silva
[08:19] <kiko> but just browse the product listing and you'll get an idea of how many different products are registered and officially using Launchpad
[08:19] <kiko> The about page said there are tools to convert from other services to launchpad.  Is one of those tools sourceforge -> launchpad?
[08:19] <kiko> sorry, that was a question
[08:19] <kiko> but hitched onto the previous one!
[08:20] <kiko> so the answer is that yes, we have custom importer for different bug trackers
[08:20] <kiko> and you can request an import if your project is considering moving to Launchpad
[08:21] <kiko> so if you want to try Launchpad out
[08:21] <kiko> come talk to me on #launchpad
[08:21] <kiko> and I will help sort it out for you.
[08:21] <kiko> an interesting question from McKinney:
[08:21] <kiko> Question: what do you think are the advantages and disadvantages of launchpad?
[08:21] <kiko> whew. it's always easy to list advantages :-)
[08:22] <kiko> a few of the more visible ones:
[08:22] <kiko> - single integrated platform for managing your project: translations, bugs, specifications, code and user support, all in one consistent and publically-available UI
[08:23] <kiko> - a commitment from Canonical to run the Launchpad servers for you, and to maintain a high quality of service, and good turnaround on questions and problems.
[08:24] <kiko> - a collection of great developers and a user community discussing features and implementation openly
[08:24] <chapular> hello
[08:24] <kiko> - the integration with other projects. you get easy access to bugs and translations coming in via the Ubuntu project, which is an amazing magnet
[08:25] <kiko> you can also participate in the discussion of a bug with other projects if you share the issue
[08:25] <kiko> Launchpad was really conceived to facilitate this interchange
[08:26] <kiko> - of course, the most sympathetic and friendly project managers you will ever run into :-)
[08:26] <almighurt> Hi wastel
[08:26] <kiko> let me try answering the second half there
[08:26] <kiko> which is definitely /not/ an easy one :-)
[08:27] <kiko> namely, disadvantages with taking up Launchpad
[08:27] <kiko> we don't natively support CVS or Subversion repositories as Sourceforge does
[08:27] <kiko> so that's one thing you should keep in mind; however we do offer an import service that converts those to Bazaar (bzr) branches
[08:28] <kiko> so it is easy to let developers try Bazaar out if they are considering changing over
[08:28] <McKinney> thank you kiko
[08:28] <kiko> Launchpad has its own particular UI, and while many people like it, some do not
[08:28] <kiko> we don't really offer much in the way of UI customizability today
[08:29] <kiko> but we may soon
[08:29] <almighurt> Hi Xk2c
[08:29] <kiko> so if your project is considering shifting, that's something to consider discussing with your user community.
[08:30] <almighurt> Hi miklov_
[08:30] <McKinney> thanks for your particular answer.
[08:30] <kiko> what else, what else
[08:30] <almighurt> Hi chuckf
[08:31] <kiko> McKinney, am I off the hook for disadvantages
 QUESTION: Where do you think Launchpad will be in a years time?
[08:31] <chapular> QUESTION: So what do you think about the open source philosophy extending in to the real qorld?
[08:31] <chapular> world*
[08:31] <kiko> can I choose cellojoe's question? :)
[08:31] <DoctorOwl> Hehe
[08:31] <kiko> heh
[08:31] <chapular> i meant outside of software
[08:31] <chapular> and computers
[08:31] <kiko> in a year's time we will have a number of interesting features
[08:31] <chapular> into real world interactions
[08:31] <kiko> available in Launchpad
[08:32] <kiko> I will try not to get fired by discussing some of them with you :)
[08:32] <kiko> - we will offer a system to let end-users easily produce and offer distribution packages
[08:32] <almighurt> Hi tintin
[08:33] <chuckf> sorry for showing up late
[08:33] <kiko> - we will implement integration with mailing list services and offer that as an additional Launchpad feature
[08:33] <Xk2c> cool
[08:33] <kiko> - we will offer an automated FAQ system that makes it easy to build answers based on Q&A coming from the answer tracker
[08:34] <kiko> - we will implement much more interesting XMLRPC API that allows you to query Launchpad for objects representing your data
[08:35] <kiko> okay. I have given up 4 features and now I am getting flak in the back so I will have to stop :)
[08:35] <kiko> let me rush to some other question fast!
 QUESTION: Is there a plan/wish to get other distos using LP? How feasible do you think this is
[08:36] <kiko> we definitely wish other distros were using LP
[08:36] <kiko> it would be interesting to see all the Ubuntu derivatives move on, because it's an easy step for them
[08:36] <kiko> but there are significant advantages in having all this information kept in a single place
[08:37] <kiko> so yes, and if there are other distros that want to move over, please by all means talk to me!
 QUESTION: Is it possible as a team admin to unjoin 'my' group from another that I was joined to without being asked?
[08:37] <kiko> I'm not sure I understand that question 100%
[08:38] <kiko> if you are a team owner you have full control of membership
[08:38] <kiko> you can include and remove admins as you wish
[08:38] <kiko> ah! I think I understand now
[08:38] <kiko> sure -- a team admin can remove any member
[08:39] <kiko> he just needs to use the +members link
 QUESTION: How easy is it to backup/save the cumulative work done through LP?
[08:39] <kiko> we will offer exports on demand to projects
[08:40] <kiko> this is really something we will be improving post-1.0
[08:40] <kiko> because we want projects to feel safe and rewarded in using Launchpad -- not trapped!
[08:40] <kiko> if you want an export /now/ please come and talk to me, I will help sort it out.
 kiko: won't this centralised source of information sit badly with other open-source people?
[08:41] <kiko> so this is a controversial question, but me -- I love controversy :-)
[08:41] <kiko> you could argue that centralizing actually improves things, because information which is hard to locate and match up is kept in a consistent and unified view
[08:42] <kiko> you could tongue in cheek say "single point in failure"
[08:42] <kiko> err point of failure
[08:42] <kiko> and while that is true in terms of infrastructure we have committed serious resources to keeping the service running and running well
[08:42] <kiko> we also try really hard to allow easy access to any data you need
[08:43] <kiko> and will be providing more features on this front as 1.0 progresses.
[08:44] <kiko> okay! I need more questions :)
[08:45] <kiko> (I should have pointed out that that was an additional disadvantage -- you need to ask us for exports of data today, we haven't automated the process)
 QUESTION: Are there plans to expand the critera for karma points to other aspects of the Ubuntu world, i.e. forum contributions
[08:45] <kiko> a strong yes is the answer
[08:46] <kiko> distribution packaging, for instance, really needs karma credit accounting
[08:46] <kiko> handling forum contributions is something I'm not sure how easy would be
[08:46] <kiko> I'm not very familiar with how the forums work
[08:46] <kiko> but if there's a will there's a way..
 QUESTION: Is a  translation string search feature being worked on?
[08:46] <kiko> YES
[08:46] <kiko> we need to do a database refactoring for this to work without bringing Launchpad down though.
[08:47] <kiko> you may have noticed that google now indexes translation pages
[08:47] <kiko> so it's becoming easier to check there
[08:47] <kiko> but this is a really important post-1.0 feature
 QUESTION: even though many other projects are using launchpad, right now the general perception is "launchpad == ubuntu". why are proects like kde, debian not shifting to launchpad ? is there any work being done to promote that ?
[08:47] <kiko> thanks for asking that one rohan
[08:47] <rohan> :)
[08:48] <kiko> I need to make it clear that shifting to Launchpad is a /lot/ harder for a larger project.
[08:48] <kiko> the community is larger and will have more diverse opinions
[08:48] <kiko> the current toolset and process will have been specialized to what they are currently used to
[08:48] <kiko> there is a lot more process that needs to be adequately supported
[08:48] <kiko> this is the reason why larger projects don't flock en-masse to launchpad (or to sourceforge, for that matter)
[08:49] <kiko> we are winning them over, but it takes some time
[08:49] <kiko> smaller projects find it much easier to move over
[08:49] <kiko> because it's easier to convince people, and to adapt processes. that's natural
[08:50] <kiko> we want to offer good service to both -- let's see them coming in!
 Has/will lauchpad support distribution of tarballs?  I know some projects that only use sf to upload/distribute the tarballs of releases
[08:50] <kiko> allee, YES. definitely planned feature.
[08:50] <kiko> (and some implementation going on already)
 QUESTION: You mentioned Sourceforge as being comparable to Launchpad, Sourceforge seems to have problems scaling, do you have any projections on how Launchpad will scale when the number of projects increases?
[08:51] <kiko> Launchpad needs to scale. we are looking to serious replication to make it grow as projects come on
[08:51] <kiko> replication is non-trivial but it is something we have been considering for a long time
[08:52] <kiko> I'm sure we will crack this nut -- we have very good controls on QoS and performance that allow us to gauge how it's going
 QUESTION: i don't know if it's already answered, but if i am writing a new program, is launchpad supposed to be used "standalone" or alongside some other service such has sf or berlios ?
[08:53] <kiko> the answer is yes -- you can use it for your own projects, just like sf and berlios.
 QUESTION:  Launchpad uses ZOPE as backend for most of the services...using ZOPE by myself as documentation management system in our company, it shows us many pitfalls regarding speed and other things..how do you overcome those things with LP?
[08:53] <kiko> we use Zope 3, which is pretty different from Zope 2
[08:53] <kiko> we find the platform really scalable and good to work with
[08:53] <kiko> extremely flexible and easy to adapt
[08:54] <kiko> it does require some understanding of the platform to ease customization
[08:54] <kiko> and there is a ramp-up to getting started that is pretty steep
[08:55] <kiko> but once you know it you appreciate how well thought out it is.
 kiko, are you using zopeDB for hte backend, or another db for storing infos? ;)
[08:55] <kiko> we don't use the zodb. we use postgresql and a database abstraction layer.
[08:56] <\sh> kiko, thx for answering :) good work :)
[08:56] <kiko> sure thing
 QUESTION: If Launchpad was open sourced, would it be released under the affero or gpl?
[08:57] <kiko> Launchpad /will/ eventually be open sourced.
[08:57] <kiko> I'm not sure what license would be used.
[08:59] <kiko> so it's time to wrap up
[08:59] <kiko> and thank you guys for many interesting questions
[09:00] <kiko> I will hand off gracefully to pitti
[09:00] <kiko> and let you guys know that I am on again, at the same time, on thursday.
[09:00] <kiko> thanks!
[09:00] <kiko> rock on pitti
[09:01] <pitti> welcome everyone to my workshop about patching packages
[09:01] <pitti> quick strawpoll, how big is the audience? who is interested in learning about that?
[09:01] <heikki> o/
[09:02] <shiyee> o/
[09:02] <rohan> \o
[09:02] <jona_> o/
[09:02] <richb> +1
[09:02] <dasmaze> o/
[09:02] <bleinmono> +1
[09:02] <balrok>  me
[09:02] <Xk2c> me2
[09:02] <cellojoe>  ./
[09:02] <sebasgro> ++
[09:02] <ditsch> +1
[09:02] <Tm_T> \o/
[09:02] <pitti> splendid; sounds like a good size for a hands-on workshop :)
[09:02] <pitti> if anyone has any question, or I'm totally uncomprehensible (sorry for my English, I'm German), please do not hesitate to interrupt and ask *immediately*
[09:03] <pitti> technical questions in #-chat, please
[09:03] <pitti> Also, don't bother trying to take notes, we'll sort that out at the end. You can fully concentrate on the discussion and examples.
[09:03] <pitti> Let's begin with a little bit of history:
 pitti: just before we start - is it specifically debian/ubuntu packages patching, or source package patching ?
[09:04] <pitti> ^ this seminar is very Debian/Ubuntu specific
[09:04] <pitti> I assume that you already know what a 'patch' is
[09:04] <pitti> and why you want to do one :)
[09:04] <pitti> == Why use separate patches in Debian/Ubuntu source packages ==
[09:04] <pitti> In earlier times, people just applied patches inline (i. e. directly in the source code tree). However, this makes it very hard to extract patches later to modify them, send them upstream, etc. Also this means that new upstream versions are a pain, since they generate a lot of rejections when applying the package diff.gz to them.
[09:04] <pitti> With split-out patches it is much easier to send them upstream, keep track of them, develop them, etc., since you always see which changes belong together.
[09:05] <pitti> The ideal state is an unmodified tarball from upstream, plus clean and separate patches, plus the packaging bits in debian/. That means that lsdiff <sourcepackage>.diff.gz only contains debian/.
[09:05] <pitti> The first attempts to split-out patches were pretty trivial: storing patches in debian/patches/, and adding some patch/patch -R snippets to debian/rules. This worked for small patches, but provided no tools for editing these patches, updating them for new upstream versions, etc.
[09:05] <pitti> Thus several standard patch systems were created which are easy to deploy and provide tools for patch juggling and editing.
[09:06] <pitti> What I would like to do now is to introduce the most common patch systems and show some hands-on demo how to add a new patch and how to edit one. For this, I will point at a source package from the current feisty archive, quickly explain the patch system, and show how to apply some (braindead) modifications to it. I recommend you to do the same steps in a terminal, so that you get a feeling for the process and can immediately ask questions.
[09:06] <pitti> everyone you fine with this approach?
[09:06] <pitti> erm, s/you/is/
[09:06] <habeeb> yes, sir.
[09:06] <heikki> yep
[09:07] <cellojoe> o/
[09:07] <pitti> btw, feel free to put answers to my questions directly here; that's easier to follow than in -chat
[09:07] <pitti> If you want to try the stuff yourself, please do the following commands (on feisty) as preparation:
[09:07] <pitti>   sudo apt-get install dpatch cdbs quilt patchutils devscripts
[09:07] <pitti>   apt-get source cron udev pmount gnome-volume-manager ed xterm
[09:07] <pitti>   wget http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/scripts/dsrc-new-patch
[09:07] <pitti>   chmod 755 dsrc-new-patch
[09:07] <pitti> I deliberately picked the smallest packages I could find
[09:07] <habeeb> pitti: let's say that we use Gentoo. Can we try it?
[09:08] <rohan> habeeb: no, read the question to my answer :)
[09:08] <habeeb> sorry.
[09:08] <jmoore> hey everyone! You guys liking Open Week?
[09:08] <rohan> jmoore: rocking ! :)
[09:08] <pitti> habeeb: sorry, as I said this stuff only applies to packaging Debian-style source packages
[09:08] <habeeb> pitti: ok, sorry. move on, please.
[09:08] <pitti> please someone give me a ping when you are finished with above preparations
[09:09] <heikki> i'm ready
[09:09] <scresawn> ready
[09:09] <the> So the next class is at 3pm
[09:09] <shiyee> done
[09:10] <robotangel> alright
[09:10] <pitti> == cron: inline patches ==
[09:10] <pitti> No patch system at all, nothing much to say about this.  You directly edit the files in the source tree. This is convenient for a simple and quick change, but will bite back for new upstream versions (see above) and is inconvenient for submitting patches upstream, or reviewing for merges.
[09:10] <pitti> if you do 'lsdiff <package>.diff.gz' and you see changes which are not in debian/, then you probably have such a package
[09:11] <pitti> (some KDE packages have autoconf stuff directly in the diff.gz, but that is ok)
[09:11] <pitti> so, I think I do not need to say anything else about cron, unless someone has a question?
[09:11] <shiyee> pitti: lsdiff cron_3.0pl1-100ubuntu1.diff.gz doesn't give me any output...
[09:11] <rohan> pitti: i did not understand the KDE thing
[09:12] <pitti> shiyee: lsdiff -z
[09:12] <pitti> sorry
[09:12] <pitti> rohan: KDE has a rule called 'buildprep' which automatically updates configure, Makefile.in etc. from configure.ac/Makefile.am etc.
[09:12] <pitti> rohan: those are entirely autogenerated changes, so developers do not need to maintain these manually
[09:13] <rohan> ah, ok :)
[09:13] <pitti> ok, let's go on then
[09:13] <pitti> == udev: separate patches, but no standard patch system ==
[09:13] <pitti> This case is the most complicated one since you have to do all the hard work manually. In order to make you understand what a patch system does, and to give you a fallback method that will *always* work with any patch system, I handle this first.
[09:13] <pitti> The good news is that you will seldomly be required to actually do this procedure, since for many packages there are nice tools which make things a charm.
[09:14] <pitti> The bad news is that it may seem utterly complicated for people who never did it before, but I would like you to understand what's actually going on behind the curtains of the tools.
[09:14] <pitti> So please do not desperate if you do not fully understand it at first; there's written documentation and you can always take your time to grok it.
[09:14] <pitti> The general approach is:
[09:14] <pitti> 1. copy the clean source tree to a temporary directory /tmp/old
[09:14] <pitti> 2. apply all patches up to the one you want to edit; if you want to create a new patch, apply all existing ones (this is necessary since in general patches depend on previous patches)
[09:14] <pitti> 3. copy the whole source tree again: cp -a /tmp/old /tmp/new
[09:14] <pitti> 4. go into /tmp/new, do your modifications
[09:14] <pitti> 5. go back into /tmp and generate the patch with
[09:14] <pitti>   diff -Nurp old new > mypatchname.patch
[09:14] <pitti> 6. move the newly generated patch to <original source dir>/debian/patches/mypatchname.patch
[09:15] <pitti> in general we want the following diff options:
[09:15] <pitti> -N -> include new files
[09:15] <pitti> -u -> unified patches (context diffs are ugly)
[09:15] <pitti> -r -> recursive
[09:15] <pitti> -p -> bonus, you can see the name of the affected function in the patch
[09:15] <pitti> does anyone have a question about the principle method?
[09:15] <rohan> pitti: how would the patch system know in what order to apply "mypatchname.patch" ?
[09:16] <pitti> rohan: most patch systems just use asciibetical ordering of files in debian/patches
[09:16] <pitti> rohan: there are some notable exceptions, I will mention them later
[09:16] <rohan> ok :)
[09:16] <crevette> so you need to prefix it with 10- 20-
[09:16] <crevette> ?
[09:16] <pitti> but you can usually rely on the rule that whenever you need this by-hand approach it is asciibetical
[09:16] <pitti> crevette: that's the common practice, yes
[09:17] <pitti> much like in good old BASIC days :-P
[09:17] <pitti> ok, some hands-on example
[09:17] <pitti> open a shell, ready your fingers :)
[09:17] <pitti> udev example 1, let's create a new patch 92_penguins.patch:
[09:17] <pitti>   cd /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/udev-108
[09:17] <pitti> -> now we are in our original source tree where we want to add a new patch
[09:18] <pitti>   cp -a . /tmp/old
[09:18] <pitti> -> create a copy of the clean sources as reference tree
[09:18] <pitti>   pushd /tmp/old
[09:18] <pitti> -> go to /tmp/old; 'pushd' to remember the previous directory, so that we can go back conveniently
[09:18] <pitti>   debian/rules patch
[09:18] <pitti> -> apply all already existing patches; of course we could use the 'patch' program to do it manually, but since debian/rules already knows how to do it, let's use it. The actual name for the patch target varies, I have seen the following ones so far: patch, setup, apply-patches, unpack, patch-stamp. You have to look in debian/rules how it is called.
[09:19] <pitti>   cp -a . /tmp/new; cd ../new
[09:19] <pitti> -> copies our patched reference tree to our new work directory /tmp/new where we can hack in
[09:19] <pitti> that's the preparatory part
[09:19] <pitti> let's do a braindead modification now
[09:19] <pitti>   sed -i 's/Linux/Penguin/g' README
[09:19] <pitti> -> changes the README file; of course you can use your favourite editor, but I wanted to keep my examples copy&pasteable
[09:19] <pitti> and now we create a patch between the reference and our new tree:
[09:19] <pitti>   cd ..
[09:19] <pitti> -> go back to /tmp, i. e. where our reference tree (old) and hacked tree (new) is located
[09:20] <pitti>   diff -Nurp old new > 95_penguins.patch
[09:20] <pitti> -> generate the patch (Ignore the 'recursive directory loop' warnings)
[09:20] <pitti> btw, NB that we need to be in /tmp for that
[09:21] <pitti> so that the directories in the patch start with 'old/' and 'new/' (patchlevel 1, which is most common)
[09:21] <pitti>   popd
[09:21] <pitti> -> now you should be back in your original source tree (when you did the pushd)
[09:21] <pitti>   rm -rf /tmp/old /tmp/new
[09:21] <pitti> -> clean up the temporary trees
[09:21] <pitti>   mv /tmp/95_penguins.patch debian/patches
[09:21] <pitti> -> move the patch from /tmp to the source tree's patch directory, where it belongs.
[09:21] <pitti> *uff* :)
[09:21] <pitti> Now take a look at your shiny new debian/patches/95_penguins.patch.
[09:21] <pitti> after that, if you do 'debian/rules patch', you'll see that the patch applies cleanly; please do 'debclean' afterwards to unapply the patches and get back a pristine source tree
[09:22] <pitti> so, obviously that's not the end of the wisdom, but if you do these steps a couple of times, you should get a feeling for how to create the most complicated patch conceivable
[09:22] <pitti> so this procedure is the life safer if anything else fails
[09:22] <pitti> questions?
[09:23] <pitti> but promised, from now on it will get really easy :)
[09:23] <crevette> no no no
[09:23] <rohan> *pings
[09:23] <crevette> I'm lagging a bit
[09:23] <crevette> :)
[09:23] <pitti> Pretty much work, isn't it? Since this happens pretty often, I created a very dumb helper script 'dsrc-new-patch' for this purpose. Using this, above steps would reduce to:
[09:23] <sebasgro> how do i do debclean?
[09:25] <pitti_> erk, WTF?
[09:25] <richb> netsplit?
[09:27] <pitti> I think I'm back now
 sebasgro: it's contained in the 'devscripts' package
[09:27] <crevette> yes
[09:27] <pitti> Since this happens pretty often, I created a very dumb helper script 'dsrc-new-patch' for this purpose. Using this, above steps would reduce to:
[09:27] <pitti>   ../dsrc-new-patch 95_penguins.patch
[09:27] <pitti>   sed -i 's/Linux/Penguin/g' README
[09:27] <pitti>   <press Control-D to leave the subshell>
[09:27] <pitti> that looks slightly better, doesn't it? If you like the script, please put it into your ~/bin, so that it is in your $PATH
[09:27] <pitti> but I had to torture you with the close-to-the-metal method for the sake of understanding.
[09:28] <pitti> I have a second example prepared which changes an existing patch, but I'll spare you that thing; if you are interested, we can talk about it afterwards
[09:28] <pitti> Since this is so hideously complicated, patch systems were invented to aid you with that. Let's look at the most popular ones now (they are sufficient to allow you to patch about 90% of the archive's source packages; for the rest you have to resort to the manual approach above).
[09:29] <pitti> == pmount: cdbs with simple-patchsys ==
[09:29] <pitti> cdbs' simple-patchsys.mk module matches its name, it has no bells and whistles whatsoever. However, it is pretty popular since it is sufficient for most tasks, and long ago I wrote a script 'cdbs-edit-patch' which most people can live with pretty well. This script is contained in the normal cdbs package.
[09:29] <pitti> You just supply the name of a patch to the script, and depending on whether it already exists or not, it will create a new patch or edit an existing one.
[09:29] <pitti> everyone please look in debian/patches, debian/rules to get a feeling how it looks like
[09:30] <pitti> so, let's mess up pmount a bit and add a new patch
[09:30] <pitti>   cd /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/pmount-0.9.13
[09:30] <pitti>   cdbs-edit-patch 03-simple-readme.patch
[09:30] <pitti>   echo 'This should document pmount' > README
[09:30] <pitti>   <press Control-D to leave the subshell>
[09:30] <pitti> easy, isn't it?
[09:31] <pitti> this will take care of applying all patches that need to be applied, can change patches in the middle of the stack, and also create new ones
[09:31] <pitti> Editing an already existing patch works exactly the same way.
[09:31] <pitti> so I won't give a demo
[09:31] <pitti> BTW, "cdbs-edit-patch" is slightly misleading, since it actually only applies to simple-patchsys.mk. You can also use other cdbs patch system plugins, such as dpatch or quilt.
[09:31] <pitti> questions?
[09:32] <rohan> what is "cdbs" ? what does it stand for ?
[09:32] <pitti> it's spelled out 'common Debian build system'
[09:32] <pitti> it provides template code for debian/rules
[09:33] <pitti> i. e. common things like 'use autoconf for configuring, make install for shuffling the files around, use intltool to build .pot files, and integrate patch systems
[09:33] <pitti> with it, you can build source packages in a very high-level way
[09:34] <pitti> for the purpose of this seminar, it's the build system that is used for Gnome and KDE packages (and others, of course)
[09:34] <tseliot> Which patch system should I use to make a patch (editing only 2 files) for the linux-restricted-modules (e.g. so as to solve a problem on launchpad)?
[09:35] <pitti> tseliot: this package does not have any patch system
[09:35] <pitti> tseliot: so this falls into the 'cron' class of source packages
[09:36] <pitti> ok, let's go on then
[09:36] <pitti> == ed: dpatch ==
[09:36] <pitti> dpatch is a pretty robust and proven patch system which also ships a script 'dpatch-edit-patch'
[09:37] <pitti> packages which use this build-depend on 'dpatch', and debian/rules includes 'dpatch.mk'
[09:37] <pitti> The two most important things you should be aware of:
[09:37] <pitti>  * dpatch does not apply debian/patches/*, but instead applies all patches mentioned in debian/patches/00list, in the mentioned order. That means that you do not have to rely on asciibetical ordering of the patches and can easily disable patches, but you have to make sure to not forget to update 00list if you add a new patch.
[09:37] <pitti> (forgetting to update 00list is a common cause of followup uploads :-) )
[09:38] <pitti>  * dpatch patches are actually scripts that are executed, not just patches fed to 'patch'. That means you can also do fancy things like calling autoconf or using sed in a dpatch if you want.
[09:38] <pitti> using dpatch for non-native patches is rare, and normally you do not need to worry about how a .dpatch file looks like
[09:38] <pitti> but I think it's important to mention it
[09:38] <pitti> so if you ever want to replace *all* instances of Debian with Ubuntu in all files, write a dpatch with a small shell script that uses sed :)
[09:39] <pitti> instead of doing a 300 KB static patch which won't apply to the next version anyway
[09:39] <pitti> The manpage is very good and has examples, too, so I will only give an example here:
[09:39] <pitti> This will edit an already existing patch and take care that all previous patches are applied in order:
[09:39] <pitti>   cd /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/ed-0.2
[09:39] <pitti>   dpatch-edit-patch 05_ed.1-warning-fix
[09:39] <pitti>   <edit stuff, press Ctrl+D>
[09:39] <pitti> so that's exactly like cdbs-edit-patch
[09:40] <pitti> ok, now we edited a patch, that's pretty easy, right?
[09:40] <pitti> ping anyone?
[09:40] <richb> pong
[09:40] <heikki> pong
[09:40] <pitti> can you follow at this speed or shall I slow down?
[09:41] <richb> It's fine here.
[09:41] <heikki> yep
[09:41] <pitti> great
[09:41] <pitti> now let's create a new one; this is different from cdbs-e-p
[09:41] <rohan> pong
[09:41] <pitti> due to the 00list thingy I mentioned above
[09:41] <pitti>   dpatch-edit-patch foo.dpatch 06_testsuite-Makefile.dpatch
[09:41] <pitti>   <edit stuff, press Ctrl+D>
[09:41] <pitti>   echo foo.dpatch >> debian/patches/00list
[09:41] <pitti> ^^ NB the last command to update the patch list (you can also use a normal editor, of course)
[09:42] <pitti> This will create a new patch foo.dpatch relative to the already existing 06_testsuite-Makefile.dpatch. If your patch is very confined and does not depend on other patches, you can leave out the second argument.
[09:42] <pitti> alright?
[09:42] <pitti> is the problem of patch dependencies clear to everyone?
[09:42] <rohan> yes
[09:42] <heikki> yes
[09:42] <sebasgro> yes but is there a way to see these dependencies?
[09:43] <pitti> sebasgro: it's hard to 'visualize them'
[09:43] <pitti> sebasgro: you can look at the patches and check if they patch the same files at roughly the same position
[09:43] <richb> Iif you have a mess of several dependent patches is it sometimes best to merge into one?
[09:43] <richb> *If
[09:43] <pitti> richb: depends
[09:43] <allee> pitti: dpatch updates patch following 06_testsuite... if they are affected?
[09:44] <pitti> richb: of course it does not make sense to fix a feature with a bugfix a, and the next patch reverts that and uses fix b instead
[09:44] <pitti> richb: but sometimes patch 1 provides some new infrastructure, and patch 2 uses that new infrastructure to provide a new feature
[09:45] <pitti> richb: and you might want to keep the patches separate because patch 1 might go upstream, but patch 2 doesn't have a chance
[09:45] <pitti> allee: good point; no, it won't
[09:45] <pitti> so if you edit a patch in the middle of a stack, you can theoretically break the patches further up
[09:45] <pitti> ('up' in stack order, i. e. the patches further down in 00list)
[09:46] <allee> pitti: is there a tool to adpated such pathces?
[09:46] <pitti> allee: there can't be; if two patches conflict, then only humans can resolve this
[09:46] <pitti> allee: you can do 'dpatch-edit-patch 08_conflicting_patch'
[09:46] <pitti> this will put you into a subshell again with some .rej files
[09:46] <allee> e.g. offset fixes and adding conflicts markers to fix by hand
[09:47] <pitti> you resolve them, Ctrl+D, and it will be good again
[09:47] <pitti> allee: offset fixes aren't strictly necessary, they don't break patches in general
[09:47] <pitti> allee: no SVN-like conflict markers, just the patch-typical .rej files
[09:48] <pitti> ok, let's move on and handle further questions afterwards
[09:48] <pitti> let's go to the last patch system
[09:48] <pitti> == xterm: quilt ==
[09:48] <pitti> quilt is the other non-dumb standard patch system. Like dpatch, it has a list of patches to apply in patches/series (to use debian/patches, packages need to add a sylink).
[09:48] <pitti> It is non-trivial to set up and has a lot of advanced commands which make it very flexible, but not very easy to use.
[09:48] <pitti> nontrivial to set up for Debian source packages, that is
[09:48] <pitti> (it's not hard either, but more work than simple-patchsys, and even dpatch)
[09:49] <pitti> I will only show a small example here
[09:50] <pitti> in the xterm source
[09:50] <pitti> First, you can use the existing machinery to set up symlinks and directories for quilt:
[09:50] <pitti>   cd /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/xterm-223
[09:50] <pitti>   debian/rules prepare
[09:50] <pitti> the 'prepare' target is not standardized; you need to look into debian/rules; however, it usually boils down to 'export QUILT_PATCHES=debian/patches' (which should work fine everywhere)
[09:50] <pitti> (since quilt looks in ./patches by default)
[09:50] <pitti> but I highly recommend to *not* use ./patches for source packages
[09:50] <pitti> all distro changes should be below debian/
[09:50] <pitti> Now let's edit the already existing patch 901_xterm_manpage.diff:
[09:50] <pitti>   quilt push 901_xterm_manpage.diff
[09:50] <pitti> this will apply all patches in the stack up to the given one
[09:50] <pitti> apply inline right in the source tree, that is
[09:50] <pitti> now let's edit a file that is already touched by the original patch
[09:51] <pitti>   sed -i 's/Copyright/Copyleft/' xterm.man
[09:51] <pitti> (yay for my creative braindead changes :) )
[09:51] <rohan> pitti: but quilt depends on just then initial number in the patchname for the order ? or does it use some other logic ?
[09:51] <pitti> rohan: as I wrote above, quilt uses debian/patches/series, similar to dpatch's 00list
[09:52] <pitti> so again you don't need to worry about asciibetical ordering
[09:52] <rohan> sorry, was not paying attention :(
[09:52] <pitti> however, it's common practice to still give them number prefixes
[09:52] <pitti> simply because it's better to understand and sort when looking at the patches/ dir
[09:52] <pitti> (and incidentally you can actually teach quilt to not use 'series', but debian/patches/*)
[09:53] <pitti> let's commit the change:
[09:53] <pitti>   quilt refresh 901_xterm_manpage.diff
[09:53] <pitti>   quilt pop -a
[09:53] <pitti> the latter will 'unwind' all the applied patches, so that you are back to a pristine source tree
[09:53] <pitti> So unlike the other patch systems, quilt works with patched inline sources, but keeps track of modifications.
[09:54] <pitti> ok everyone?
[09:54] <richb> Fine here.
[09:54] <rohan> pitti: but this is the case when i edit an already existing patch. how about creating new patches in quilt ?
[09:54] <heikki> ok
[09:54] <pitti> rohan: my next topic :)
[09:54] <rohan> ok.. i am just getting too eager it seems ;)
[09:54] <pitti> Finally, let's add a new patch to the top of the stack:
[09:54] <pitti>   quilt push -a
[09:54] <pitti> '-a' means 'all patches', thus it applies all further patches after 901_xterm_manpage.diff up to the top
[09:55] <pitti> \sh: queue it in -chat, plz
[09:55] <pitti>   quilt new muhaha.diff
[09:55] <pitti> register a new patch name (which we want to put on top of the patch stack)
[09:55] <pitti>   quilt add README
[09:55] <pitti> you have to do that for all files you modify, so that quilt can keep track of the original version
[09:55] <pitti> this tells quilt to keep track of the original version of README
[09:55] <pitti>   sed -i '1 s/^/MUHAHA/' README
[09:55] <pitti> modify the source
[09:55] <pitti>   quilt refresh
[09:55] <pitti>   quilt pop -a
[09:55] <pitti> this will finally create debian/patches/muhaha.diff with the changes to README
[09:56] <pitti> as I already said above, quilt has a patch list, too
[09:56] <pitti> in debian/patches/series
[09:56] <pitti> which is much like debian/patches/00list for dpatch
[09:56] <pitti> and if you push -a, then the patch will land on top of the patch stack, and will automatically be put at the end of series
[09:56] <pitti> of course you can create the patch in other levels of the patch stack
[09:56] <pitti> but usually you want the top
[09:56] <pitti> sometimes, when you pull changes from upstream CVS, it's better to put them at the bottom of the stack
[09:56] <pitti> i. e. upstream changes shuold generally come *before* distro-specific changes
[09:57] <pitti> [09:57] <pitti> As you saw, Debian source packages do not have any requirements wrt. structure, patch systems, etc., other source package systems like SRPM are much stricter wrt that. This of course means more flexibility, but also much more learning overhead.
[09:57] <pitti> As a member of the security team I can tell tales of the pain of a gazillion different source package layouts... :)
[09:58] <pitti> Therefore some clever people sat together the other day to propose a new design which would both give us a new and unified source package and patch system that uses bzr (with a quilt-like workflow). This would also integrate packages and patches much better into Launchpad and revision control in general.
[09:58] <pitti> Please take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NoMoreSourcePackages if you are interested in this.
[09:58] <pitti> not important here, but interesting to mention :)
[09:58] <pitti> erk, we are close to the end, I'll be around for a while in -chat for any further questions
[09:59] <pitti> NOTES:
[09:59] <pitti> THere is a iki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/PatchingSources which provides most of above information in a more convenient format. However, it might be slightly out of date (it's from dapper times). Feel free to update the page and and add missing bits.
[09:59] <`23meg> thanks pitti
[09:59] <pitti> THanks for your attention! I hope it was a bit useful
[09:59] <pitti> and happy patching!
[09:59] <sebasgro> thank you very much pitti
[09:59] <ddaa> ouch
[10:00] <ddaa> jml: hey, your turn!
[10:00] <robotangel> perfect in-time ;)
[10:00] <pitti> oh, I'd appreciate some feedback about the talk, for the future :)
[10:00] <ddaa> So, jml is going to tell you about launchpad code hosting
[10:00] <jml> right!
[10:01] <ddaa> I'm just here to take credit, but he's the guy doing most of the work nowadays.
[10:01] <robotangel> yep
[10:01] <robotangel> Text Topic: "Hosting code with Launchpad and Bazaar - Jono Lange" ;)
[10:01] <heikki> yea, thanks pitti, nice and useful session
[10:01] <jml> except ddaa has graciously volunteered to answer all of the really tricky questions ;)
[10:01] <jml> Good morning everyone!
[10:01] <robotangel> well, let's be quiet now, I think somerone's here is willing to start ;)
[10:02] <jml> My name is Jonathan Lange. I work at Canonical, where I hack on Launchpad's code hosting services w/ ddaa and others.
[10:02] <jml> There are three ways you can get code for your project on to Launchpad.
[10:03] <jml> 1. You can host your Bazaar branches on Launchpad itself.
[10:03] <jml> 2. You can mirror your Bazaar branches from your own webserver to Launchpad.
[10:03] <jml> 3. You can have Launchpad maintain a Bazaar branch based on your SVN / CVS repository.
[10:03] <jml> So, uhh, you may have noticed something of a pattern here
[10:04] <jml> (hint: Bazaar)
[10:04] <`Tell> Hi...I need to dual-boot with winxp for work related stuff...can anybody advise me on how to do this?
[10:04] <heikki> ask in #ubuntu
[10:04] <jml> We use Bazaar for doing all of our code-hosting stuff
[10:04] <jml> poolie put it really well the other day, "Bazaar is the way that launchpad thinks about code".
[10:05] <jml> I don't know how much you all know about bzr.
[10:05] <jml> Here's the important thing: it's a *distributed* revision control system.
[10:05] <jml> That means that anyone can make a branch and start hacking with all of the super-powers that you get with using version control.
[10:06] <jml> You can commit to their branch, revert their commits, run 'log' and 'blame'
[10:06] <jml> all without touching the internet or talking to a central repository. everything is in your local checkout
[10:06] <jml> (except don't call it a checkout)
[10:06] <asosa> well so far i'm not too found of xubuntu - doesn't like the fact that i already have an ext2 filesystem on the laptop during install. It can't format, resize, cause it automounted it
[10:07] <jml> More interestingly for us, using bazaar means you can publish your code in full and independently
[10:07] <jml> and people can branch off _that_ and make their own branches and publish those.
[10:07] <jml> This is great for Free Software, because it radically lowers the barrier to
[10:07] <jml> entry.
[10:08] <jml> Instead of attaching fiddly little patches to tickets on a bug tracker, you can just publish your branch.
[10:09] <jml> How do you publish your branch? Well, you can just upload it to Launchpad.
[10:09] <ddaa> (note: you can attach a "bundle" on a bug tracker, which is like a patch, with version control data added)
[10:09] <jml> right.
[10:09] <ddaa> go on, I do not mean to sidetrack
[10:10] <jml> but say you want to do something cooler than attaching a bundle, something like...
[10:10] <jml> == 1. You can host your Bazaar branches on Launchpad. ==
[10:10] <jml> I assume everyone has a Launchpad account?
[10:10] <jml> If not, you really should get one now, before all the cool names are taken.
[10:11] <jml> Got an account? Good
[10:11] <jml> Once that's done, you'll need to upload a public SSH key.
[10:11] <jml> You can make one of these using ssh-keygen
[10:11] <jml> or puttygen.exe I guess
[10:12] <jml> Once you've generated a key (or if you have one already), go to your Launchpad page
[10:12] <ddaa> jml is starting to get anxious that nobody is listening. Anybody listening please send him a message on #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[10:12] <ddaa> that will make him feel much better
[10:13] <jml> so, my Launchpad page is https://launchpad.net/~jml
[10:13] <jml> There is a link in the Actions menu, on the left, labelled "Update SSH keys".
[10:13] <jml> Go there and submit your public key
[10:14] <jml> (not your private one!)
[10:14] <jml> Once that's done, you can push up a bzr branch.
[10:14] <jml> Time for some screenshots!
[10:15] <jml> jml@rhino:~$ cd ~/Code/Scratch/d20-chargen/
[10:15] <jml> jml@rhino:~/Code/Scratch/d20-chargen$ bzr push sftp://bazaar.launchpad.net/~jml/+junk/d20-chargen
[10:16] <jml> that's sftp://bazaar.launchpad.net/~<username>/<project>/<branch_name>
[10:16] <jml> That'll push d20-chargen (a branch I made for this session) up to Launchpad
[10:17] <jml> '+junk' means it's not part of a registered project
[10:17] <jml> it's just a branch I want to put up on Launchpad.
[10:17] <jml> It'll take Launchpad about 2-3 minutes to scan the branch after it's been pushed.
[10:17] <jml> This time last year, it used to take about 24 hours.
[10:18] <jml> At least, I seem to remember it did. ddaa?
[10:18] <jml> Anyway, we still want to make it faster though :)
[10:18] <ddaa> Yes, for the initial upload
[10:18] <ddaa> subsequent updates were detected faster than that
[10:19] <jml>  <robotangel> QUESTION: Is it a bit similar to GIT or did I miss something (or understood something totally wrong)?
[10:20] <jml> I honestly don't know very much about GIT. I think Bazaar has similarities.
[10:20] <ddaa> git is similar to bzr
[10:20] <ddaa> came later too
[10:20] <jml> hah
[10:21] <jml> Anyway, by now, the branch is available to the world: https://code.launchpad.net/~jml/+junk/d20-chargen
[10:21] <jml> (although actually I prepared this one before the show)
[10:21] <jml> The page provides a URL that other bzr users can use to get the branch.
[10:21] <jml> "Hosted on Launchpad:  	http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~jml/+junk/d20-chargen"
[10:21] <jml> so, if you wanted to right now, you could branch from that URL and start hacking on a D&D character generator
[10:22] <jml> Also, check out the 'Browse code' on the left.
[10:22] <jml> this is cool
[10:22] <jml> the code browsing feature is a really handy way to quickly look at code that's on Launchpad.
[10:23] <jml> So, if you don't want to actually use Launchpad to host your branches, you can always...
[10:23] <jml> == 2. Mirror your Bazaar branches from your own webserver to Launchpad. ==
[10:23] <jml> Actually I think the "web" bit is unnecessary
[10:23] <jml> maybe you've got your own domain name and you want people to download branches from http://awesomeo.net/code/some-branch.
[10:24] <jml> It's still a good idea to mirror branches to Launchpad.
[10:24] <jml> If practically every project has a branch on Launchpad, then it becomes easy for potential contributors to start hacking on a project.
[10:25] <jml> to find the code, you go to the Launchpad page, click on "Code", and find the right branch.
[10:25] <jml> OR
[10:25] <jml> you just type 'bzr branch lp:///<project>'.
[10:25] <jml> Try it with 'subunit'.
[10:25] <jml> $ bzr branch lp:///subunit
[10:25] <jml> See this as the upstream equivalent of 'aptitude install <package>'.
[10:26] <jml> And if that's doesn't convince you to mirror your code to Launchpad,
[10:26] <jml> well, you could always think of the mirroring as free backups
[10:26] <jml> So here's how you do it:
[10:26] <jml> On your Launchpad page, or on any project page, click on the "Code" tab.
[10:27] <jml> There'll be an action on the left called "Register branch".
[10:27] <jml> Provide the URL of the branch, a unique name and some optional description.
[10:27] <jml> Hit register and Launchpad should mirror the branch soon.
[10:27] <jml> and while you're waiting for Launchpad to mirror the repository, you might want to take a look at...
[10:27] <jml> https://code.launchpad.net/+project-cloud
[10:28] <jml> Bigger means 'more branches', brighter means 'more active'.
[10:28] <jml> (we are so web 2.0 it hurts)
[10:28] <jml> So, maybe your project isn't lucky enough to use Bazaar
[10:29] <jml> == 3. You can have Launchpad maintain a Bazaar branch based on your SVN / CVS repository. ==
[10:29] <jml> The last major way of hosting code on Launchpad is to have your code imported from another repository.
[10:29] <jml> We already do this for a number of major projects.
[10:29] <jml> one of my favourites...
[10:29] <jml> https://code.launchpad.net/~vcs-imports/python/trunk
[10:30] <jml> You can even browse code from there
[10:30] <jml> The cool thing about this is that it gives you a consistent way to start hacking on code.
[10:31] <allee> jml: no python commits for 4 days?
[10:31] <ddaa> gah, import is failing
[10:31] <ddaa> I'm the one making imports work
 QUESTION: So would you maintain the code in SVN.  And then push updates up to Bazaar?
[10:32] <jml> No. Launchpad tracks your SVN repository and imports updates from there.
[10:33] <jml> Having an import for a project means that it's a no-brainer for others to get started on it.
[10:33] <jml> again, they can just go 'bzr branch lp:///<project>'
[10:34] <jml> Of course, eventually they'll want access to the official repo.
[10:34] <jml> For various reasons, getting your project imported from a CVS or SVN repository is more complicated than simply mirroring a Bazaar branch.
[10:35] <jml> https://help.launchpad.net/VcsImports has a guide on how to go about doing it.
[10:35] <jml> Oh, tangent time
[10:35] <jml> there's a link to that page from https://code.launchpad.net
[10:36] <jml> I was talking to a friend who does a bit of packaging, and he didn't know about that page.
[10:36] <jml> it's kind of cool in that it shows recent movements on the code front
[10:36] <jml> tangent over
[10:37] <jml> In essence, to register a project for getting imported, first make sure we can import it sanely
[10:37] <jml> then use Launchpad Answers to ask a question about getting it activated.
[10:38] <jml> QUESTION: is a project has a svn imported in bazaar, can i commit to the original svn thru launchpad via bazaar ? or is it only 'one way' ?
[10:38] <jml> If you are using the Bazaar branch that Launchpad has made, then it's one way.
[10:38] <jml> There's a neat tool called bzr-svn which lets you do two-way stuff, but Launchpad doesn't use that.
[10:39] <jml> QUESTION: Do I need to be one of the official "owners" of a project to register an SVN branch on vcs-imports? Or can I register a branch for a project I want to track but whose "official" maintainers don't use bzr or know about Launchpad?
[10:39] <jml> That's a really good question :)
 rmunn: yes
[10:40] <jml> ^^ that's the answer
[10:40] <rmunn> Yes, you need to be an owner? Or yes, you can register a branch for any project?
[10:41] <rmunn> Makes a difference... :-)
[10:42] <jml> (answered in -chat)
[10:42] <jml> So, that's about it from me. Some suggestions where to go from here...
 people are welcome and encouraged to register projects on behalf of upstream
[10:43] <jml> that's one suggestion :)
[10:43] <jml> - poolie is running another session on Bazaar tomorrow at the same time as this session (UTC 20:00)
[10:43] <allee> jml: Is there a page about bzr and pkg management?
[10:44] <jml> - If you've got more questions, ask them here or join us on #launchpad or the launchpad-users mailing list
[10:45] <jml> allee: there's wiki.ubuntu.com/NoMoreSourcePackages
[10:45] <jml> but apart from that, I don't know.
[10:45] <jml> I've been using Debian/Ubuntu for about 9 years now and still don't know anything about package management :\
[10:45] <jml> which is why...
[10:46] <allee> :)
[10:46] <jml> - You should hang out on #launchpad anyway. We like users, and I get to learn things when you want a feature for something like package management :)
[10:46] <Jack313> hm
[10:47] <jml> So go and write lots of code and upload it to Launchpad. :)
[10:47] <jml> That's it.
[10:48] <balrok> QUESTION:can you tell me some advantages and disadvantages of bazaar compared to svn?
[10:50] <jml> balrok: To quote poolie
[10:50] <ryanakca> balrok: might be something in http://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrForSVNUsers
[10:50] <jml> "The pros: no need for a central server, can commit and do other work while disconnected, much better merge tracking and smarter merging. The cons: mostly that it's a younger system, so somewhat less polished, less tools integration, etc. But we plan to go 1.0 in a few months, and there is some work towards gnome, eclipse and visual studio integration"
[10:51] <balrok> thank you both.. this sounds very good.. i actually opened my project on lp too =)
[10:52] <ryanakca> =)
[10:53] <dqdev> is the  school out/
[10:53] <dqdev> ?
[10:54] <jml> For this session, school is out.
[10:54] <dqdev> I thought there was a lecture at 21.00
[10:54] <jml> there will be :)
[10:54] <dqdev> in 6 mins?
[10:54] <jml> yep :)
[10:54] <dqdev> aha... ok jml
[10:55] <habeeb> Kubuntu session.
[11:00] <imbrandon> Hows everyone doing ?
[11:00] <habeeb> Good!
[11:01] <imbrandon> ok give me one more moment to get situated here and we'll get started
[11:02] <habeeb> okie
[11:03] <rulus> in the meantime, habeeb can throw some popcorn around, especially in my direction, mjum!
[11:03] <imbrandon> ok lets get things started , I'm not sure if it is still moderated in here ( +m ) or not , but we'll find out in a few moments, I try to keep my sessions informnal as possible, I'm going to start with
[11:04] <harrisony> +m on the channel?
[11:04] <harrisony> it would be nice :D
[11:04] <imbrandon> just Intoducing myself , I'm Brandon Holtsclaw ( imbrandon on the wiki and LP and IRC ) and am an un-paid ( by canonical ) core developer for Ubuntu and Kubuntu
[11:05] <imbrandon> I do have a "day job", and they pay me approx %20 of my time to work on Kubuntu related packages
[11:05] <imbrandon> ( the rest is a little more boring hehe )
[11:06] <PriceChild> (channel is -m)
[11:06] <imbrandon> I got started with Ubuntu arround the Breezy cycle and have been going full blst since then.
[11:07] <imbrandon> sooo as long as it dosent get too hetic in here I'll open it up to some Q & A about Kubuntu in here, if we need I'm sure PriceChild can help me filter Questions in -chat
[11:07] <imbrandon> everyone been enjoying OpenWeek so far? how many do we have from last OpenWeek ?
[11:07] <PriceChild> I was at the last one 8-)
[11:07] <habeeb> not me :/
[11:08] <Sanne> I was there
[11:08] <rulus> I was there too
[11:08] <luca_b> First presence here, right now
[11:08] <Jack313> I am new, and these presentations are pretty cool
[11:08] <habeeb> but well, this open week is awesome.
[11:08] <harrisony> i was asleep before
[11:08] <ufuntu> i wasn't there
[11:08] <harrisony> forgot to to wake up
[11:08] <dws> There was another OpenWeek?
[11:08] <imbrandon> Great
[11:08] <rpw> Enjoing it for the first time...
[11:08] <radmen> I'm here for the first time ;-] 
[11:09] <tmske> new: and it is very cool
[11:09] <balrok> me too
[11:09] <n2diy> First timer
[11:09] <CrazyEccentric> first time for me also
[11:09] <CrazyEccentric> I like it
[11:09] <imbrandon> So What is Kubuntu, Kubuntu is our KDE varariant from our brethern Ubuntu based on Gnome
[11:09] <imbrandon> for those of us that prefer the KDE desktop
[11:10] <imbrandon> we strive to bring you the same level of User experince ( sometimes better IMHO ) than Ubuntu "proper"
[11:10] <imbrandon> :)
[11:10] <imbrandon> thats just my humble opinion though , i might be a tad bias ... :)
[11:11] <imbrandon> 16:09 < tmske> Off-Topic QUESTION: what is your "day job" where you can work on Kubuntu?
[11:12] <imbrandon> I work for a very large PCI compliant Web hosting company , that uses a few thousand Ubuntu Servers ( and also Solaris and Windows boxen )
[11:12] <imbrandon> my job is to maintain those and help trubbleshoot problems
[11:12] <shawarma> PCI?
[11:13] <imbrandon> PCI == Payment Card Industries, like vias and mastercard complaint
[11:13] <imbrandon> 16:12 < xerosis> QUESTION: what do you think kubuntu's advantages and disadvantages compared to ubuntu?
[11:14] <imbrandon> ( PriceChild can you paste the qustions for me please, so i dont have to toggle the chats rooms :)
[11:14] <PriceChild> ok will do
[11:14] <imbrandon> xerosis, well thats kinda hard , in a tech sense there are man dis and advantages
[11:15] <imbrandon> it really depends on what your used to programing for, like QT and KDE
[11:15] <imbrandon> or GTK, etc, from a users perspective, it is just a matter of taste on the bundled apps
[11:15] <xerosis> imbrandon: i guess i meant overall progress as a project, and for the future
[11:16] <imbrandon> techinicly we strive to have the same goal , we just go a diffrent road to get there
[11:16] <imbrandon> as for the future, we're looking forward to KDE4 and the great cross platform things that will bring to kubuntu
[11:17] <imbrandon> this cycle we should see a release ( even if just beta ) of KDE4 that is making great strides to be a next generation Desktop experince
[11:17] <imbrandon> with things like GL acceleration built in, unified sound backends etc
[11:18] <imbrandon> ( e.g. beryl quality effects built right into the default desktop )
[11:18] <rpw> Sometimes Kubuntu seems (not a hard fact!) to get little love than Ubuntu, for example some friends have asked me things like "I can't fiend Desktop-Effects, I thought I could enable them very easy".
 QUESTION: Have there been any thoughts on incorporating beryl with the KDE? I downloaded it and found it pretty cool and seems like it would be a nice addition, your thoughts?
[11:18] <imbrandon> well there are 2 answers to that
[11:19] <imbrandon> with KDE3 the current desktop there is aquamarine
[11:19] <imbrandon> that strives to be a kwin replacement like emeryald is for Gnome
[11:19] <imbrandon> with the comming of KDE4 the KDE developers are building that tech right into kwin , the heart of KDE
[11:20] <imbrandon> so it will be an in-house tech
[11:20] <PriceChild> Isn't it heliodor for gnome? emerald works in both gnome and kde
[11:20] <imbrandon> PriceChild, right, my mistake , thnaks :)
[11:21] <imbrandon> btw everyone give a big welcome to Riddell , the mastermind behind Kubuntu ( the Kubuntu lead developer :P )
[11:22] <ypsila> gnome
[11:22] <imbrandon> 16:18 < wburge_> QUESTION:   What types of apps do you typically work on when developing for kubuntu?
[11:22] <imbrandon> I typicly work on Amarok bugs in my time, but I have touched many many packages over the last few cycles
[11:23] <imbrandon> anything from mono to amarok to kubuntu-default-settings etc etc etc
[11:23] <Riddell> hi
 Question:  do you think that the changes in kde 4 will be hard to implement and will it really make kde more usable?
Are there any aps you have worked on that started as new projects?
[11:23] <PriceChild> Hey Riddell :)
[11:24] <imbrandon> davmor2, everything new is a challenge, but with rockin people on the team and how closely we work with upstream implmenting KDE4 is an ongoing process that I dont think will be super difficult
[11:25] <imbrandon> as for will it be more useable , yes, it is a vast improvemnt over KDE3
[11:25] <imbrandon> and the way we look at things today
[11:25] <imbrandon> tons of useability study has gone into this by the KDE team and many others
[11:25] <imbrandon> making KDE4 one of the heftiest releases yet
[11:26] <davmor2> thanks
 Question: is there any specific application that is developed by kubuntu developer for KDE?
[11:26] <davmor2> kde launchpad intergration?
[11:27] <imbrandon> guidance is a good example of it was developed by Kubuntu and KDE developers both and used in Kubuntu first
[11:27] <imbrandon> but now its in official KDE svn
[11:27] <imbrandon> and yes KDE LP intergration if you can consider that an APP
[11:27] <Belutz> what about adept? is it developed by kubuntu developers?
[11:28] <Riddell> no, but it was funded by canonical
[11:28] <Belutz> ah ic
[11:28] <imbrandon> yes adept was started by a Kubuntu developer ( and is currently maintained by other Kubuntu developers )
[11:28] <imbrandon> but not 100% just "ours"
[11:28] <imbrandon> others like fedora and such can and do use it
 QUESTION: (and an *evil* one at that) What was the rationale behind implementing System Settings?
[11:29] <Riddell> kcontrol sucked
[11:30] <Riddell> but system settings was implemened by a KDE developer, we just happened to like it
[11:30] <imbrandon> luca_b, honestly , it was after much useability testing from what I rember correctly, but Riddell can tell you much more specifics as to exactly "why" , other than KControl is hard to use for a new user
[11:30] <imbrandon> :)
[11:31] <luca_b> I rarely use both, so it was just a matter of knowing
 QUESTION: do you think that gnome and kde could share more code, is there improvement? or is it not necessary/usefull for ubuntu/kubuntu?
[11:32] <imbrandon> colaboration is always usefull, and on backend things we do share alot of code *sorta* thats a loaded statement, by backend i mean like HAL and DBUS and the "core" , as for the UI and the KDE libs they are very diffrent beastes so code sharing is hard, but collaboration is a must
[11:33] <Riddell> KDE 4 is now the biggest user of DBUS by a long way
[11:33] <Riddell> it has also adopted the mime type specification recently
[11:33] <imbrandon> and icon naming
[11:34] <imbrandon> with oxygen
[11:34] <Riddell> I've spent time getting it to adopt the icon name spec which I hope will feed back to gnome and others
[11:34] <Riddell> but there are limits there with people's time
[11:35] <Riddell> sharing documentation would be great and KDE has written the specification with agreement from gnome, but the gnome docs guy hasn't had time to implement it
[11:35] <imbrandon> *hint* Kubuntu can always use good people helping out with your favorite OS :)
[11:35] <allee> KDE3 already implements the freedesktop trash spec (draft).  Hopefully gnome does so too in the future.
 QUESTION: I have noticed the schedule for the next release of kubuntu is days before KDE4 release, will the kubuntu release date get pushed up so we can get the KDE 4 incorporated?
[11:36] <imbrandon> yea alot of the collaboration goes through the freedesktop project
[11:37] <imbrandon> thats a hard one, so far Ubuntu and Kubuntu have alwasy kept the same release cycle, and afaik there are no plans to change that
[11:37] <imbrandon> but that dosent mean we wont work with upsteam KDE to get KDE4 in time for rlease if that is possible
[11:38] <rpw> QEUSTION: Speaking of KDE 4, do you know when we will see KDE 4 as default in Kubuntu, or will there be an easy way to install and use it as default on our desktops?
[11:38] <Riddell> it also means we can do a KDE 4 CD shortly after the normal kubuntu release in line with KDE's schedule
[11:39] <imbrandon> rpw, there will be an easy way to install it , just as there is now in feisty ( is a developers preview ) but as for Default, thats something to be worked out at UDS this and next cycle
 QUESTION: when there's a new spec that needs a GUI, is more than 'ping Riddell' to make sure KDE supports the spec feature too?
[11:41] <imbrandon> allee, hehe, well yes and no, in the past there hasent been much more than "ping Riddell" but we have more and more upstream developers and useability poeple from KDE working with us daily like seele and elen
[11:41] <imbrandon> to poke and get input on new GUI apps , like the Wine config and upcomming grub config modult for guidance etc
[11:42] <imbrandon> modules*
[11:42] <Riddell> when ubuntu developers do apps they usually do it for gnome first because that's their desktop
[11:42] <Riddell> but in almost all cases such apps are well thought out to be easy to port to other desktops
[11:43] <Riddell> and we always get a lot of help when doing the port (colin spends a notable amount of time help with the ubiquity kde frontend, mvo did fantastic stuff helping with dist upgrade tool)
[11:44] <Riddell> we didn't get migration assistant for kubuntu in feisty but it wasn't for will of wanting to, evan plans to do it for gusty
[11:44] <imbrandon> i will love that one , personaly :)
[11:44] <allee> Riddell: thx. great
 QUESTION: with dolphin as the new (easier) default file manager in upcoming kde releases I read about, will the file manager part of konqueror still continue to be supported? What will Kubuntu's policy be concerning that?
[11:46] <imbrandon> Sanne, we will typicly support what KDE upstream supports, and thats looking to be dolphin, we've been known to stray from the path then get upstream acceptance like with system settings
[11:46] <PriceChild> imbrandon, Riddell i've got to run now sorry.
[11:46] <imbrandon> but all in all dolphin will probably be our first choice, that dosent mean konqueror will be removed or striped down
[11:47] <Riddell> I also need to bed
[11:47] <imbrandon> PriceChild, thanks
[11:47] <Riddell> but let me point out a couple of things before I do
[11:47] <Riddell> firstly, Kubuntu has seen some major adoptions
[11:47] <Riddell> the French Parliament uses us for all their MPs, so we now rule France (whoever becomes president)
[11:48] <Riddell> meduxa has put Kubuntu on tens of thousands of computers in canary islands schools
[11:48] <Riddell> we have an impressive list of kubuntu derived distros at https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuDerivedDistros
[11:48] <imbrandon> even router cd's :)
[11:48] <Riddell> seeing companies like dlink using kubuntu derived CDs as their official development environement is so cool
[11:49] <Riddell> secondly.. and you're hearing this first folks
[11:49] <Riddell> Kubuntu is again Gold Sponsor of KDE's Akademy conference http://akademy2007.kde.org/
[11:49] <Riddell> thanks to Canonical
[11:49] <pointwood> w000t!!!
[11:49] <imbrandon> rockin :)
[11:50] <Riddell> and remember, Canonical provide top notch commercial support for Kubuntu for anyone who cares to pay for it
[11:50] <Riddell> (and people do)
[11:51] <Riddell> thanks all, guid nicht
[11:51] <imbrandon> cool, thanks Riddell , and sleep well
[11:51] <pointwood> good night
[11:51] <imbrandon> ok ...
[11:51] <imbrandon> 16:43 < n2diy> QUESTION What are the dangers with using KDE apps. in Gnome?
[11:51] <pointwood> thx for creating a rocking distro
[11:52] <imbrandon> none, other than using a bit more memory because you have to load the KDELibs along with the gnome libs
[11:52] <allee> imbrandon: should I feed questions from -chat
[11:52] <imbrandon> but apps are fairly desktop independant
[11:52] <imbrandon> allee, sure
[11:52] <allee> luca_b> QUESTION: Is adept's UI planned to be improved for 7.10? (as the original spec for Edgy never got implemented)
[11:53] <imbrandon> yes very much so, manchicken and others have been working on doing just that for Gutsy ( 7.10 _
[11:53] <imbrandon> )
 QUESTION:  (devils advocate)  I am on the iso testing team but there were few kubuntu testers so I volunteered as I had time.  So I played around with kde for a bit.  Why can't gnome and kdes apps have similar tab names?  Armarok and rhythmbox as examples.
[11:54] <imbrandon> davmor2, good question, but normaly somethign that handeled upstream and KDE useability and Gnome useability tend not to agree at times and on nameing conventions , that dosent mean this wont changed for KDE4 and Gnome++
 QUESTION: how hard is it to port a UI from ubuntu to kubuntu?
[11:55] <imbrandon> xerosis, it all depends on how much the UI is seperated from the programs logic, and how much the originaly author thought about portability, it can range from a few minutes litterly to a few months
[11:56] <imbrandon> normaly more on the shorter side in Ubuntu and Kubuntu's case
 QUESTION: what parts of kubuntu are you very proud of?
[11:57] <imbrandon> i persoanly am proud of how it "just works" for the most part with audio and video playback and asking you to install codecs
[11:57] <imbrandon> but there
[11:57] <imbrandon> are many many things i would love to see smoothed out too over time
 QUESTION: Have you made any thoughts about what to add to Kubuntu Gutsy or is that too early to ask?
[11:58] <imbrandon> pointwood, yes thats what the specs ( blueprints ) on LP are for , and they get discussed by you and me and everyone else at UDS in spain here in a few days
[11:58] <imbrandon> thats what the UDS meeting are all about
[11:58] <imbrandon> planning the next release
 QUESTION: i've applied an old user-submitted patch of "an app" to the svn version of this app. how can i get it included upstream/in ubuntu? i've added it to the relevant bugzilla page but now the bug is "dead"
[12:00] <jmoore> hey
[12:00] <jmoore> quick question for ya
[12:00] <imbrandon> those cases hopefully dont happen too often but if it does happen that way, you can generaly ask arround in #ubuntu-motu to have someone help you patch the package in kubuntu or attach the patch to a LP bug and we can take on a local delta
[12:00] <imbrandon> jmoore, shoot
[12:01] <jmoore> is the Screencasting Team session happening?
[12:01] <imbrandon> jmoore, no this is Kubuntu session, screencasting was this morning afaik
[12:01] <popey> that was earlier jmoore
[12:01] <jmoore> what time zone is this?
[12:02] <popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekfeisty/screencast
[12:02] <harrisony> jmoore:  i missed it too set alarm for 12:45pm not am
[12:02] <harrisony> UTC
[12:02] <imbrandon> the times are listed in UTC
[12:02] <popey> dont worry, it is repeated on saturday :)
[12:02] <jmoore> dam lol
[12:02] <jmoore> k
[12:02] <jmoore> col
[12:02] <popey> or just read that log ^^^
[12:02] <poningru> uh...
[12:02] <popey> and email me any questions you have
[12:02] <jmoore> yeah lol got it
[12:03] <popey> sorry imbrandon
[12:03] <imbrandon> ok well since this is the last session of the day , i can stick arrround a few more minutes and just open up the floor if you all want to blurt out some last questions, i'll do my best to get to them
[12:03] <jmoore> so you all use kubuntu?
[12:03] <imbrandon> ( in here not -chat )