[12:03] <jmoore> so what happens for this session?
[12:03] <harrisony> QUESTION:will you be my friend
[12:03] <imbrandon> harrisony, lol
[12:04] <harrisony> jmoore: its the end of Kubuntu session
[12:04] <jmoore> how does this work?
[12:04] <imbrandon> jmoore, well it is the end actualy and it was a Q&A about kubuntnu
[12:04] <poningru> zomg squeee imbrandon will you sign my...
[12:04] <jmoore> oh
[12:04] <poningru> gpg key?
[12:04] <harrisony> imbrandon: i dont have friends and i need some!
[12:04] <pointwood> jmoore: general chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[12:04] <imbrandon> poningru, if we meet yes :)
[12:04] <jmoore> ok well i have a question
[12:04] <harrisony> !gpg
[12:04] <ubotu> gpg is the GNU Privacy Guard.  See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto and class #8 on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts
[12:04] <jmoore> will gnome and kde ever merge lo
[12:04] <imbrandon> nope :)
[12:04] <jmoore> *lol
[12:04] <harrisony> jmoore: never
[12:04] <jmoore> why not, it would be a good idea
[12:05] <pointwood> no
[12:05] <zorglu_> will they go on duplicate the same work over and over ?
[12:05] <harrisony> if they do ill get an operation to be a donkey!
[12:05] <imbrandon> thanks everyone for comming, and enjoy UbuntuOpenWeek ( and thanks allee PriceChild and Riddell for the help )
[12:05] <allee> jmoore: everything happening on freedesktop.org is about merging gnome and kde.  It already happens ;)
[12:05] <habeeb> Thanks, imbrandon .
[12:05] <habeeb> Great session.
[12:05] <luca_b> Thanks, nice session
[12:05] <harrisony> imbrandon: so do i have an extra friend to play with now?
[12:05] <habeeb> Should I close the log, now?
[12:05] <jmoore> thanks gusy
[12:05] <tmske> thanks nice session, and kubuntu rocks!!!
[12:05] <imbrandon> habeeb, sure
[12:05] <habeeb> imbrandon: okie dokie.
[12:06] <deniz_ogut> imbrandon: Thanks a lot for the session.
[12:06] <pointwood> thanks imbrandon and thanks for creating Kubuntu, it rocks on my thinkpad :)
[12:06] <davmor2> thanks imbrandon
[12:06] <Sanne> imbrandon, thanks for the session
[12:06] <imbrandon> pointwood, i dident create it, but i'm happy you liek it :)
[12:06] <popey> :)
[12:07] <pointwood> imbrandon: I know, wrong term :)  but you are part of the team :)
[12:07] <habeeb> ausimage: I have the whole log, would you like me to copy-paste it?
[12:07] <jmoore> ok see yall next session
[12:07] <jmoore> can anyone translate utc to pacific time for me lol
[12:07] <pointwood> jmoore: what time is it there now?
[12:07] <jmoore> 3pm
[12:08] <pointwood> it is 22:00 UTC
[12:08] <jmoore> k thanks
[12:08] <deniz_ogut> now its 22:08 UTC. You calculate the rest.
[12:08] <festival_gaim> @schedule
[12:08] <ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Technical Board | 25 Apr 20:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 20:00: MOTU | 26 Apr 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 01 May 15:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 18:00: Mozilla Team
[12:08] <Sanne> jmoore: this may also help: http://whattimeisit.com/
[12:08] <aos101> PDT=UTC+7 I think
[12:08] <festival_gaim> @schedule frisco
[12:08] <aos101> sorry, -7
[12:08] <jmoore> thanks sanne
[12:08] <Sanne> jmoore: yw :)
[12:08] <jmoore> thanks aos
[12:09] <deniz_ogut> applauses for the second day!
[12:14] <balrok> i the sessions today were very good and interesting (yesterday i missed them :(
[12:15] <habeeb> PriceChild: i won't do the log. even tho I have it ready it seems like Ausimage is working on it.
[12:15] <PriceChild> Ah coolios, thanks ausimage
[12:16] <habeeb> PriceChild: the problem is that ausimage is not responding here..
[12:16] <habeeb> but well, on the wiki, the log is half-way done.
[12:19] <jmoore> ive got another question for you guys
[12:19] <jmoore> i want to become an official ubuntu member
[12:19] <jmoore> how can i earn that membership?
[12:20] <jmoore> i read that i must participate and i want to participate but im not sure how i could help
[12:20] <PriceChild> !member
[12:20] <jmoore> yes
[12:20] <PriceChild> !participate
[12:20] <ubotu> Want to become an Ubuntu member? Look at http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/newmember
[12:20] <ubotu> To contribute and help out with Ubuntu, see http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate
[12:20] <jmoore> ok, i want to eventualy get my ubuntu card
[12:21] <PriceChild> ubuntu card?
[12:21] <jmoore> ubuntu id card
[12:21] <PriceChild> What's that? :s
[12:21] <jmoore> ummm...hold on, let me find a link
[12:21] <archangelpetro> oh god
[12:21] <archangelpetro> i want one
[12:21] <PriceChild> archangelpetro, I'm a member and I don't have one...
[12:22] <jmoore> http://ploum.frimouvy.org/?102-official-ubuntu-id-cards-announced
[12:22] <jmoore> well thats one link of a picture anyway
[12:22] <danohuiginn> jmoore: notice the date ;)
[12:22] <jmoore> 06
[12:22] <PriceChild> jmoore, haha
[12:23] <PriceChild> jmoore, look closer :)
[12:23] <jmoore> so lol
[12:23] <PriceChild> Sorry :)
[12:23] <archangelpetro> "Ubuntu is still (by mistake I hope) on the Worldwide Terrorist Organization list. Thanks to the RFID chip, you would be caught really quickly and immediately jailed in Guantanamo."
[12:23] <archangelpetro> lol
[12:23] <PriceChild> "Par Ploum, samedi 1 avril 2006  17:40"
[12:23] <rulus> lol, that's a Belgian identity card, I have exactly one like that
[12:23] <archangelpetro> april fools :D
[12:23] <jmoore> oh i know
[12:23] <jmoore> oh lol
[12:23] <jmoore> dam
[12:23] <jmoore> that would have been cool
[12:23] <archangelpetro> i know jmoore dont worry, my hopes were up too
[12:24] <jmoore> are you guys developers?
[12:24] <archangelpetro> not for ubuntu
[12:24] <archangelpetro> atm :0
[12:24] <harrisony> jmoore: no
[12:24] <PriceChild> jmoore, You do get to carry ubuntu business cards as a member... but not id cards.
[12:24] <nixternal> business cards?
[12:24] <nixternal> where are mine?
[12:24] <jmoore> hmm
[12:25] <jmoore> how does one get a ubuntu business card?
[12:25] <harrisony> !member
[12:25] <ubotu> Want to become an Ubuntu member? Look at http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/newmember
[12:25] <habeeb> get a phonecard and print the ubuntu logo with your printer. then use glue and glue the logo onto the phonecard.
[12:25] <popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BusinessCards
[12:26] <imtheface> http://skyisgrey.org/blog/ubuntu-business-card.html
[12:26] <imtheface> :D
[12:26] <PriceChild> ah thanks popey :)
[12:27] <archangelpetro> once again..
[12:27] <archangelpetro> i want one.
[12:27] <PriceChild> archangelpetro, In my opinion that isn't the correct attitude.
[12:27] <archangelpetro> lol
[12:27] <archangelpetro> it isnt?
[12:27] <PriceChild> You shouldn't want to be a member so that you can carry cards, or have a freenode project cloak.
[12:27] <archangelpetro> desire is the single driving trait of humanity.
[12:28] <jmoore> do they send you a digital make of the card?
[12:28] <harrisony> jmoore: you make em yourself i think
[12:28] <jmoore> oh
[12:28] <PriceChild> You should not want to be a member... its just something someone tells you that you should go for because you're already contributing enough for.
[12:28] <archangelpetro> PriceChild, to be honest.. i wanna become a better coder :)
[12:28] <PriceChild> archangelpetro, well then start coding :)
[12:28] <archangelpetro> oh, i do :)
[12:28] <jmoore> so, is there a washington representative for the loco team?
[12:28] <harrisony> !python
[12:28] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about python - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[12:28] <harrisony> !loco | jmoore
[12:28] <ubotu> jmoore: Information on Ubuntu Local Community Teams is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeams
[12:29] <jmoore> yeah i looked there and i couldnt find one for my state
[12:29] <jmoore> washington state
[12:29] <Jack313> hey
[12:29] <Jack313> i live in wa
[12:29] <pochu> jmoore: then start it! :)
[12:29] <archangelpetro> bbr guys :)
[12:29] <jmoore> k
[12:29] <habeeb> jmoore: how long have you been using Linux/ubuntu?
[12:29] <Jack313> jmoore, where do you live
[12:30] <jmoore> for 3 years
[12:30] <habeeb> Aw man my eyes...
[12:30] <habeeb> Hmm
[12:30] <jmoore> ive been through a linux class
[12:30] <jmoore> but i learned mostly in fedora
[12:30] <habeeb> i see
[12:30] <jmoore> but there are alot of similarity's
[12:30] <Jack313> jmoore: what part of WA you in? Im in tri-cities in the southeast corner
[12:31] <jmoore> im in olympia
[12:31] <Jack313> ah cool
[12:32] <Jack313> hmm theres one for pacific northwest
[12:32] <Jack313> #ubuntu-pnw
[12:32] <jono> looks like ubuntu open week is kicking ass :)
[12:32] <jono> which is what we like :)
[12:33] <jono> PriceChild: :)
[12:33] <PriceChild> lol listenned to the latest lug radio last night... loved it when you all just kept pausing for a second or two... wondering which gnu the other was referring to.
[12:34] <jono> PriceChild: hehe :)
[12:38] <habeeb> So.. goodnight gentlemen. it was a great day today!
[12:43] <jmoore> goodie night
[12:54] <pochu> Nice day today :)
[12:54] <pochu> night'all!
[01:33] <andel7> ?
[03:00] <ubuntu> popey burning isos they can use nerolinux
[03:00] <ubuntu> i use it and it work
[03:01] <ubuntu> nerolinux for burning isos.
[03:01] <tonyyarusso> nonfree
[03:01] <ubuntu> only the problem is,maybe it can't make data cd ot data dvd
[03:01] <ubuntu> tonka
[03:01] <ubuntu> what are you doing you uk man.
[03:02] <ubuntu> non free,but it work.
[04:43] <Terramel> QUESTION: Who  loves me?
[04:43] <Terramel> O.o
[04:49] <Gabz> noone
[04:49] <Terramel> Gabz loves me ;)
[04:54] <Witchery> Jordon are you in here now
[04:56] <Jordan_U> Yup :)
[04:56] <Witchery> ok
[04:56] <Witchery> here is what it is telling me
[04:56] <Jordan_U> Witchery, Are you sure that you typed the command in correctly, you can cut and paste it
[04:57] <Witchery> command not found
[04:57] <Jordan_U> sudo /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/examples/install-css.sh
[04:57] <Witchery> hold
[04:58] <Witchery> im typig:  sudo /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/examples/install-css.sh
[04:58] <Witchery> and its telling me
[04:58] <Witchery> sudo: /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/examples/install-css.sh: command not found
[04:59] <jrib> no "examples/"
[04:59] <Witchery> must be great coffee :)
[04:59] <Jordan_U> jrib, So help.ubuntu.com is wrong?
[04:59] <Witchery> you told me to put that in there
[05:00] <Jordan_U> Witchery, I guess I was wrong :) try without the /examples
[05:00] <Witchery> ok
[05:00] <jrib> Jordan_U: that used to be correct, but I can verify that it is without "examples/" on feisty.  It is probably easier to just use medibunut repos though
[05:00] <Jordan_U> sudo /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/install-css.sh
[05:01] <Witchery> its calculating now brb
[05:02] <Jordan_U> jrib, Should I file a bug report on help.ubuntu.com in launchpad or is there a way to edit https://help.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/video.html ?
[05:02] <jrib> Jordan_U: doesn't look like 7.04 docs are up yet
[05:02] <Witchery> digitabulummagae@digitabulummagae:~$  sudo /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/install-css.sh
[05:02] <Witchery> --23:01:06--  http://www.dtek.chalmers.se/groups/dvd/deb/libdvdcss2_1.2.5-1_i386.deb
[05:02] <Witchery>            => `/tmp/libdvdcss.deb'
[05:02] <Witchery> Resolving www.dtek.chalmers.se... 129.16.30.198
[05:02] <Witchery> Connecting to www.dtek.chalmers.se|129.16.30.198|:80... connected.
[05:02] <Witchery> HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK
[05:02] <Witchery> Length: 25,178 (25K) [text/plain] 
[05:03] <Witchery> 100%[[05:03] <Witchery> 23:01:08 (43.92 KB/s) - `/tmp/libdvdcss.deb' saved [25178/25178] 
[05:03] <Witchery> Selecting previously deselected package libdvdcss2.
[05:03] <Witchery> (Reading database ... 144450 files and directories currently installed.)
[05:03] <Witchery> Unpacking libdvdcss2 (from /tmp/libdvdcss.deb) ...
[05:03] <Witchery> Setting up libdvdcss2 (1.2.5-1) ...
[05:03] <Jordan_U> jrib, I thought Witchery was running Dapper
[05:03] <jrib> Jordan_U: maybe ask #ubuntu-doc
[05:03] <Witchery> what is Diaper
[05:03] <Witchery> lol
[05:03] <Jordan_U> !paste | Witchery
[05:03] <jrib> Jordan_U: oh, in that case definitely ask them :)
[05:03] <ubotu> Witchery: pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
[05:04] <Witchery> i was pasting it
[05:04] <jrib> heh, "diaper"
[05:04] <Witchery> lol
[05:04] <jrib> Witchery: right, but you should use http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org so you don't flood the channel
[05:04] <Witchery> dont know how im a newbee
[05:05] <jrib> Witchery: it's pretty straightfoward, just visit the site
[05:05] <Witchery> i dont know quite about lyn-x yet
[05:06] <Witchery>  ok i can do that too but i need to play my dvd or im going the easy way to windows
[05:06] <Jordan_U> Witchery, That looks fine, you should be able to play DVD's in VLC now
[05:06] <Jordan_U> Witchery, You might want to set it up so that DVD's open in VLC when you insert them rather than Totem though ( as totem will just give you an error )
[05:06] <Jordan_U> Witchery, To do that go to System -> Preferences -> Removable Drives and Media
[05:06] <jrib> Witchery: well you can use firefox to visit the site right?
[05:07] <Witchery> yep
[05:07] <Witchery> what happened to jordon_u
[05:07] <jrib> Jordan_U is still here
[05:07] <Jordan_U> Witchery, Just go to VLC and Open -> Disk
[05:08] <Witchery> ok there
[05:09] <Witchery> so why did you tell me to go to that address what will that do for me
[05:09] <Jordan_U> Witchery, That is just for future reference
[05:10] <Witchery>  but i was just telling you what it said, if i put it on that page what do i do with it then?
[05:11] <Witchery> you got to remember im lame when it comes to commands and using lyn-x
[05:11] <Jordan_U> Witchery, Would you like to set it so VLC plays DVD's automatically when you insert them?
[05:12] <Witchery> yes please
[05:12] <Jordan_U> Witchery, When you are in a channel that is crouded like #ubuntu ( in the future ) it is impolite to paste large amounts of text because there are so many people talking, so just know in the future to use pastebin instead
[05:13] <Jordan_U> Witchery, go to System -> Preferences -> Removable Drives and Media  ...
[05:13] <Witchery> ok hold
[05:13] <Jordan_U> Then when that is open go to the media tab at the top ...
[05:14] <Jordan_U> Sorry "multimedia"
[05:14] <Witchery> done it
[05:15] <Witchery> now my dvd drive will not open, this computer is making me mad
[05:15] <Jordan_U> Witchery, Now change the command for playing DVD;s from "totem %M" ( or whatever it is ) to "vlc dvd://"
[05:15] <Witchery> hold please
[05:16] <Witchery> ok did that
[05:17] <Witchery> is there anything else?
[05:17] <Jordan_U> Ok, now it should open VLC automatically when you insert a DVD
[05:17] <Jordan_U> nope :)
[05:17] <Witchery> ill try
[05:18] <Witchery> im having trouble opening the dvd drive something else is wrong
[05:19] <Jordan_U> Witchery, You may need to close VLC first because you can't eject a DVD while a program is reading from it
[05:19] <Witchery> i have to turn off the computer so ill be back if you will still be there
[05:19] <Jordan_U> I will
[05:20] <Witchery> ok, thanks for your help
[05:20] <Witchery> be back in a minute
[05:29] <SwinK> ooohh.. nikmatnya notebook ku nyetrum2 kecil.. berasa pake vibrator
[05:30] <SwinK> oooooooooohhh
[06:10] <Terramel> QUESTION: Ubuntu's liveCD is Knoppix based or is made from scratch?
[06:12] <LoCusF> from scratch I think :)
[06:12] <LoCusF> since Knoppix is based on totally differend livecd philosophy
[06:14] <Terramel> ;)
[06:14] <Terramel> what's knoppix philosophy?
[06:16] <LoCusF> hmm ok philosophy is a bad describer for this :)
[06:16] <LoCusF> architecture is better
[06:17] <Terramel> ;D
[06:17] <Terramel> ehehhehehe
[06:17] <Terramel> can you explain the differences?
[06:17] <Terramel> ;D
[06:18] <LoCusF> hmm no, I think not :)
[06:18] <Terramel> :)
[06:18] <Terramel> thanx anyway ;D
[06:19] <LoCusF> np
[06:19] <leandro944> hi, i need help to ubuntu
[06:42] <zeroone_> I missed it...
[06:42] <zeroone_> Darn
[06:44] <tonyyarusso> many sessions are repeated later in the week (but not all)
[06:46] <zeroone_> I see there are also logs. :D Thank you tonyyarusso.
[06:46] <tonyyarusso> yuppers, logs ftw eh?
[07:27] <popey> moin everyone \o/
[07:28] <harrisony> afternoon popey
[07:31] <harrisony> another session wooo! i missed it before
[07:32] <popey> this is a different subjec
[07:32] <popey> t
[07:33] <harrisony> oh
[07:33] <harrisony> what is this one on?
[07:37] <popey> the launchpad support system
[07:38] <popey> http://answers.launchpad.net/
[09:57] <HM_cet> hello
[09:57] <HM_cet> need help with feisty
[09:58] <HM_cet> where do i have to ask for help ?
[09:58] <Telep> HM_cet: try #ubuntu
[09:58] <Telep> or the forums :)
[09:58] <HM_cet> ok
[09:58] <HM_cet> thx
[09:58] <Telep> np
[10:38] <delmorep> is a session about to start?!
[10:38] <harrisony> delmorep: no not for a few hours
[10:39] <harrisony> why?
[10:39] <delmorep> :)
[10:39] <tonytiger> UTC baby.
[10:39] <delmorep> i was just being weird
[10:41] <harrisony> lol if i was mean enough i would do my n00b impersonation!
[10:41] <delmorep> do it!
[10:41] <harrisony> delmorep: it invovles me annoying everyone in the room which means i will only do it in non ubuntu channels unless there is a n00b impersonation channel
[10:42] <delmorep> yah dont get banned from this room!
[10:42] <harrisony> ill do it in #harrisony
[10:53] <wubuntu-balrok> JOIN ubuntu-classroom-chat
[10:59] <Jack3132> ello
[01:19] <jono> can someone give me ops please?
[01:19] <jono> elkbuntu: can you?
[01:19] <harrisony> its jono
[01:19] <jono> hey harrisony :)
[01:19] <jono> thanks elkbuntu
[01:19] <giangy> 'morning
[01:20] <jono> bugger
[01:20] <jono> how can I revert the timetable?
[01:20] <jono> ahhh its ok
[01:21] <harrisony> CHANGES?
[01:21] <jono> :)
[01:21] <jono> harrisony: yeah a few rescheduling bits
[01:21] <jono> check the timetable
[01:21] <harrisony> what changed
[01:21] <harrisony> ok
[01:22] <jono> see http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=956
[01:22] <harrisony> @now
[01:22] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 25 2007, 11:22:59 - Next meeting: Edubuntu in 8 hours 37 minutes
[01:23] <harrisony> who was the organiser of UOW
[01:26] <jono> harrisony: me
[01:29] <harrisony> jono: Oh 1)Nice idea 2)Good excuse for waking up at 1am 3) someone was in #ubuntu-bugs and they were a beginner bug person and was unaware at the same time here BjornT was speaking about the same topic (in short more publicity and promotion) and 4 (i think it was)) Thanks again!
[01:30] <jono> harrisony: thanks for all your support :) nice to know the week is going well :)
[01:30] <jono> right, lunch for I
[01:30] <jono> back soon
[01:32] <harrisony> let me rephrase 3)  someone was in #ubuntu-bugs and they were a beginner bug person they were unaware that at the same time  BjornT was speaking about getting involved in bugs and all  (in short more publicity and promotion)
[01:39] <harrisony> ok the alarm is set at 12:45am see you then
[02:39] <KennethP> @now
[02:39] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 25 2007, 12:39:53 - Next meeting: Edubuntu in 7 hours 20 minutes
[03:11] <eolo999> !ciao
[03:11] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about ciao - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[03:16] <LongPointyStick> jono: ducks?
[03:21] <visualdeception> lol
[03:26] <DShepherd> time
[03:42] <DShepherd>  /help
[03:44] <jrib>  /help DShepherd
[03:46] <DShepherd> jrib: srry.. it was a mistake..
[03:47] <jrib> DShepherd: you may be interested in the usercount.pl irssi script
[03:48] <DShepherd> jrib: you spying on me? :-) i maybe... i can get it from the site?
[03:48] <jrib> yep irssi.org/scripts
[03:48] <DShepherd> jrib: thanks.. heading there now..
[03:56] <mogydy> QUESTION: how can i get feisty to detect my Fn keys on a Sony Vaio laptop?
[03:57] <Hobbsee> !support
[03:57] <ubotu> support is The official ubuntu support channel is #ubuntu. Also see http://ubuntu.com/support and http://ubuntuforums.org
[04:11] <l3on_> hi ! :)
[04:11] <Hobbsee> hiya
Hi. =)
[04:29] <jono> 30mins till the community Q+A folks :)
[04:29] <Hobbsee> jono: yay!
[04:29] <jono> :)
[04:29] <jono> get your questions prepared peple :)
[04:29] <jono> people
[04:30] <ShankarGanesh> what's todays topic?
[04:30] <tonytiger> ShankarGanesh: See the wiki for the schedule.
[04:30] <tonytiger> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[04:30] <ShankarGanesh> k
[04:30] <tonytiger> 7 topics today :)
[04:31] <tonytiger> jono is first up
[04:31] <PriceChild> pfft difficult's nothing... try harder
[04:31] <jono> Hobbsee: :)
[04:32] <Hobbsee> jono: QUESTION: Are you going to spend all of UDS evenings drinking, instead of sleeping at all, like LCA?
[04:32] <jono> Hobbsee: you will have to ask that when the session begins :)
[04:32] <Hobbsee> jono: i hope not to be on irc by then
[04:32] <Hobbsee> but i will be, and doing my assignment
[04:33] <jono> :)
[04:35] <elkbuntu> ooh, i know the answer to that one!
[04:35] <Hobbsee> shoot
[04:35] <elkbuntu> ers
[04:36] <elkbuntu> the answer is beer.
[04:37] <Hobbsee> heh
[04:37] <poningru> elkbuntu++
[04:42] <ogra> Hobbsee, didnt claires mail tell you its mandatory for sponsorship to party all night with jono ?
[04:42] <Hobbsee> ogra: dont think so, no...
[04:42] <ogra> we have this policy, you know :)
[04:42] <Hobbsee> ogra: haha
[04:43] <ogra> sleep is overrated
[04:43] <Hobbsee> so if you're going to enforce that rule, ensure that you have someone wake me up to coherancy
[04:43] <Hobbsee> i know...
[04:43] <jhutchins> Good grief, tonytiger AND popey.
[04:43] <ogra> why else did god give us coffee and cigarettes
[04:43] <jono> ogra: woo! :)
[04:43] <jhutchins> Has hants gone entirely over to ubuntu?
[04:44] <Hobbsee> ogra: and chocolate.
[04:44] <elkbuntu> gah, planet updated too quick.. my post doesnt have digging orders in it :(
[04:44] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: heh
[04:44] <ogra> yeah, indeed, how could i miss chocolate
[04:44] <Hobbsee> BAD OGRA!
[04:44] <ogra> heh
[04:45] <Hobbsee> er, s/cigs or chocolate/cigs or coffee/
[04:45] <ranf> hi
[04:48] <habeeb> digg is so f..reaking bloated in my firefox >:
[04:48] <habeeb> i hate firefox in linux
[04:51] <jhutchins> habeeb: It's no better in windows.
[04:53] <habeeb> jhutchins: no seriously. _My_ firefox sucks.
[04:53] <habeeb> And in Windows its much much better.
[04:53] <jhutchins> habeeb: Well of course it does.
[04:53] <jono> five minutes until the Q+A begins - get your questions ready :)
[04:53] <habeeb> jhutchins: I can't even scroll a freaking myspace page..
[04:54] <habeeb> When I scroll I get 4-5 seconds wait time for it to de-freeze.
[04:54] <jhutchins> habeeb: Try a different browser, see if it works better.
[04:54] <habeeb> _without_ auto/smooth scrolling
[04:54] <habeeb> jhutchins: with Konqueror it does work better.
[04:54] <habeeb> but Konqueror doesn't have the sweet extensions!
[04:54] <jhutchins> habeeb: So don't use firefox.  Problem solved.
[04:54] <richb> habeeb: Did you try strace to see what it is doing?
[04:54] <habeeb> richb: what's that, little sir?
[04:55] <mc44> habeeb: you need to ask jono why he hasnt made firefox better yet
[04:55] <jono> mc44: yah, cause I am reponsible for everything ubuntu related....riiiiiiight :P
[04:55] <richb> habeeb: Little? *laughs* It shows the system calls that a process makes.
[04:55] <mc44> jono: no, just all the things that are broken
[04:55] <habeeb> aw, like *top*?
[04:55] <richb> habeeb: Not really, no.
[04:55] <jono> mc44: well, its a community - why not get involved?
[04:55] <habeeb> richb: I see.
[04:55] <habeeb> I'll try it.
[04:55] <Hobbsee> jono: exactly.  get to it.
[04:56] <richb> habeeb: Things like read/write/mmap
[04:56] <mc44> jono: I mock you. Is that not involvement enough? :)
[04:56] <jono> mc44: nope :)
[04:56] <mc44> jono: I mock Hobbsee too, if thats any help
[04:56] <jono> mc44: would much prefer you fix bugs :)
[04:56] <richb> habeeb: It will probably generate a lot of output though, so you might want to redirect it to a file.
[04:56] <habeeb> richb: I see, thanks.
[04:57] <habeeb> :X
[04:57] <habeeb> Also, Firefox, has to load GTK stuff to run in my purely KDE desktop.
[04:58] <richb> habeeb: Opera uses QT IIRC.
[04:58] <habeeb> richb: opera.. hmm..
[04:59] <richb> We are offtopic anyway, the ralks starts soon:-)
[04:59] <Talcite> what kind of skills do you guys need to be on a developer team?
[04:59] <habeeb> richb: but Opera won't give me Adblock >:
[04:59] <habeeb> Anyway, let's shhush
[04:59] <Talcite> ahh ok, i'll ask later
[05:00] <habeeb> Talcite: try #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[05:00] <Talcite> habeeb: thanks
[05:00] <jono> righteo folks, lets get this going \m/
[05:01] <jono> the aim of this session is to simply provide an hour of Q+A - you are welcome to ask my what you like - and I will try to help
[05:01] <jono> naturally I cannot answer all things, so I may refer to others
[05:01] <jono> the way it works is simple:
[05:02] <jono> join #ubuntu-classroom-chat and post your question in there including my nick and the word QUESTION
[05:02] <jono> the questions will then be posted in here by elkbuntu and I will answer them
[05:02] <jono> I want to start things off with a question from Hobbsee
[05:02] <jono> jono: QUESTION: Are you going to spend all of UDS evenings drinking, instead of sleeping at all, like LCA?
[05:02] <jono> yes, yes I will
[05:02] <Hobbsee> hehe :)
[05:02] <jono> :)
[05:03] <jono> ok elkbuntu, lets go :)
[05:03] <elkbuntu> another from hobbsee QUESTION: how many beers are you owed, on estimate, for UDS? And how many do you owe?
[05:03] <Hobbsee> QUESTION:how old do you have to be to bea member
[05:03] <Hobbsee> Answer:  no age limit
[05:03] <jono> Hobbsee: I have no idea, I would like to think I am owed enough beer for the entire UDS, but I also know I no doubt owe others beer which might cance some of it out
[05:03] <Hobbsee> haha
[05:04] <jono> anyone can be a member of the Ubuntu project :)
[05:04] <jono> we encourage everyone to get involves, whatever the age
 QUESTION: is the loco leader must be an ubuntu member? or can he/she can just an ubuntero?
[05:05] <jono> elkbuntu: the loco leader does not need to be an ubuntu member no, the main thing a loco leader needs to be is determined and keen to grow a team :)
 QUESTION where is the best place to learn about making a custom livecd?
[05:06] <jono> gumpa: good question, I am not entirely sure - I have never rolled a livecd before - but I would suggest you should ask in #ubuntu-devel to see who has worked on it
[05:06] <jono> it seems rolling live cds is a pretty straightforward process
[05:06] <jono> a number of derivatives have appeared due to this process being pretty simple
[05:07] <jono> cred to knoppix too for making it pretty simple :)
 QUESTION: Do you have any ideas on what can be done to further help the integration of the forums with the main ubuntu community?
[05:07] <jono> PriceChild: loads of ideas, and I would be really keen to discuss them at the UDS
[05:07] <jono> I think integration of the forums involves a few things:
[05:08] <jono>  * technical - ensuring the forums works with LP sign-on, getting forums info out to other source, feeding the forums with data from locos, list integration etc
[05:08] <jono>  * social - ensuring people use the forums - this involves recommending people to go there, encouraging community growth there and more
[05:09] <jono> the technical side can be discussed better with the distro and dev team, whereas I am keen to help the forums grow and continue to be integral in the community
[05:09] <jono> its getting better that for sure, and the forums council are doing a stunning job
 jono: QUESTION: Do you think the extensive use of launchpad will create a parallel universe for some activities especially in the Gnome community, E.g. translations in launchpad. How do you think the development process could be improved to avoid parallel efforts?
[05:10] <jono> mART: LP is a complex subject, and I am not the best person to speak on it - there is a seperate team for that - I just work with the Ubuntu community, but as ever, I have thoughts and opinions :P :
[05:11] <jono> the idea behind LP is to be centralised and to work with other bug trackers and systems - its real strength is when projects use LP and they can communicate together
[05:12] <jono> but naturally other upstream projects have their own systems in place, and I know the LP team are keen to get feedback about how to work with these projects
[05:12] <jono> I think technically LP is pretty damn good, and it will live or die based on its ability to hook these projects together, which is the mission of LP
[05:13] <jono> ok, before I continue, Hobbsee pointed me at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomization which could be useful for the livecd question earlier
 QUESTION: do you have any suggestion of what to be put in presetations for Introducing Ubuntu and Feisty Fawn demo?
[05:13] <jono> Belutz: aha! now you are talking :)
[05:13] <jono> I love presenting :)
[05:14] <jono> a few things to remember:
[05:14] <jono>  * target the talk at the audience - make sure it matches their expectations - geeks want technicality - regular people want less technical discussion
[05:14] <jono>  * make it interesting - by dynamic, exciting and different
[05:15] <jono>  * don't fill your slides with text, it looks rubbish
[05:15] <jono>  * use real-world details and examples of where Ubuntu is kicking arse - look at the loco teams, how the community is growing and more
[05:15] <jono> I do some of this in my talks, check out herding cats to see some of these theories in practise
[05:15] <elkbuntu> harrisony> QUESTION: How do you react to the people that boycott launchpad and ubuntu due to the licencing of LP?
[05:16] <jono> harrisony: it doesnt surprise me at all that people bitch about LP's closed source nature, it rubs up against people in the free software people
[05:16] <jono> I think boycotting Ubuntu is crazy for these reasons
[05:16] <jono> Ubuntu is Ubuntu, not LP
 QUESTION: since you mentioned pushing ppl. to use forums, should I point people to forums or answers.lp nowadays to look for help ?
[05:18] <jono> pixelpapst: good question, and personally I would recommend both - the forums has one thing answers.lp.net doesnt - a huge community, but answers.lp.net is a great format for support - so both have their merits
[05:18] <jono> I am also keen to see how we can bridge the two, but thats just some personal thoughts for the future :)
 QUESTION: how would you rate microsofts open source/linux efforts
[05:18] <jono> harrisony: Microsoft are tough company to comment on, because they are SO FREAKING HUGE
[05:19] <jono> like any large company, there are good guys/girls and bad guys/girls
[05:19] <jono> I know a bunch of people at MS who are incredibly good, have their heads screwed on, and know what to do - they live a different culture, but they are good people who believe in choice
[05:19] <jono> then, on the flip side, I know some idiots, and people who believe that MS is the only way to go
[05:20] <jono> I think as a company, they still don't get it - they still don't understand that what drives Linux and free software is community, not code
[05:21] <jono> and they still don't get that interoperability does not mean "people who Microsoft want to partner with"  - it means allowing *anyone* to work with your technology
[05:21] <jono> they have some great people, but I think some people further up the tree just don't get it and block the good people doing good things
 QUESTION: Do you think the trend of of supplying flavours of Linux based on desktop environments or role will spread further (Currently Ubuntu and FC7)?
[05:22] <jono> richb: possibly, but I think the trend of provding distros on "something unique" will continue - look at Ubuntu Studio, or Trixbox, or Gentoo, or Linux From Scratch - this what makes free software incredible
[05:23] <jono> but there will always be popular general purpose distros like Ubuntu and Fedora
 jono, QUESTION: The Launchpad devs have seemed very reluctant to help integrate the forums wth launchpad. Supposedly due to the very good reason that Launchpad != Ubuntu. The forums have integrated a few features like links to accounts and related bugs to posts. Do you still think that this integration can be two way?
[05:24] <jono> PriceChild: I know this sounds evasive, but I am not the best person to answer this because (a) I am not on the LP team and (b) I don't know :P - I recommend you speak to the LP team, via mrevell
 QUESTION: when are you going to make a loco tour in south east asia to talk about loco? you can also make a metal concert while making a tour :D
[05:25] <jono> Belutz: I would love to do a LoCo tour, and I am working to get out to different chunks of the world - I would love to get to south east asia - if something is happening, mail me and I will try to get over
 QUESTION, how does a person who loves UBUNTU and the community, but cannot code, earn a living?
[05:25] <jono> I am always keen to get out and visit loco teams
[05:25] <jono> so mail me with details of your loco teams
[05:25] <jono> and always keen to and drink beer and watch metal too :)
[05:26] <jono> ukubuntu: loads of ways :) you can help with your loco team, advocacy, documentation, help people in the forums and on IRC - I recommend you ask some people today about how to help and they can help you get started :)
 Question: What's the average time you have to be involved doing community work or development before applying to be a ubuntu member?
[05:28] <jono> luis_lopez:  there is no average time really, its about how much you achieve - I always recommend people to have engaged in two or three projects, and done some real things that they can show off - this could be organising events, packaging things, translating apps or whatever - the CC looks for sustained contributions when deciding to make people members - so demonstrating you have done a bunch of things is always the best route to take :)
 QUESTION: how does ubuntu/canonical acknowledged loco contributions?
[05:28] <jono> Belutz: I don't quite understand the question
[05:29] <jono> people are acknowledged like anyone else in the community
 jono QUESTION: What can you say about the Full Circle magazine, Ubuntu community magazine released issue #0. Perspectives for the future?
[05:29] <jono> deniz_ogut: do you work on it?
 jono: just joined in some way
[05:30] <jono> I had a look at it and I think its interesting - I have been looking to get in touch with the authors about a few things - so if they can get in touch with me that would be great
[05:31] <jono> I think an ubuntu magazine is a pretty nifty idea, although a lot of these kinds of magazines due due to production time
[05:31] <jono> I hope this continues :)
 jono: QUESTION. As Community Manager, you visit various communities at events around the world. What does a Community Manager do on a day-by-day basis, sat at home, though?
[05:31] <jono> tonytiger: all kinds of stuff:
[05:32] <jono>  * answer day to day queries about a vast range of things - I get *stacks* of email, and I need to respond to these emails that ask specific things
[05:32] <jono>  * develop strategy for teams - help to grow, improve and better run teams - so I recommend teams do specific things
[05:32] <jono>  * resolve conflict - I often act as a middleman when things blow up - I help to calm the situation and restore some peace
[05:33] <jono>  * develop new plans and ideas - I develop new ideas (such as Ubuntu Open Week) to help develop and expand the community
[05:33] <jono>  * work with Canonical - I also work with Canonical to ensure the connection with the community is always open and community is a key part of our business
[05:33] <jono> oh, and eat sandwiches and donuts :)
 QUESTION: what do you think its going to take for more linux friendly vendors to begin shipping ubuntu/debian friendly packages?  It seems the popular trend is still rpms.
[05:34] <jono> superm1: I think it needs a few things:
[05:34] <jono>  * solid community infrastructure and documentation - we need a big and solid community who can help companies package their software - MOTU is critical here - if *anyone* wants to get into packaging JOIN MOTU!! :)
[05:35] <jono>  * good ISV relations at Canonical - for business relationships we need a solid ISV department and a good partner programme - this is being run by Malcolm Yates who is a hero among men
[05:35] <jono> I really encourage the community to make packages as easy as possible - we should have online resources that could make any knuckle dragging idiot able to package something :)
 QUESTION: Community support seems to be a rather disparate effort with forums, various irc channels, launchpad, mailing lists, locos, wiki help, official documentation etc. How do you think support can be improved in the future? (/me apparantly missed this one)
[05:36] <jono> mc44: I think we need to figure ways in which to tie these things together where they make sense, but to also respect different mediums for what they are - some people love lists and hate forums, some love forums and hate lists and just about everyone loves IRC
[05:37] <jono> we need to make sure we can share information but respect the different types of medium
[05:37] <jono> thats a *tough* challenge and one that I often think about, but there is no clear solution
[05:37] <jono> I think the interim is that we make *all* our communities strong and have good relations between them
 jono: QUESTION: What do you think of the idea of creating some kind of ubuntu club that you can join when installing ubuntu. I could imagine this to be something like Apples iDisk Service used to be in the pre-.Mac era or like the Nintendo club. The difference would be that it only would be used to improve community interaction without commercial interest.
[05:38] <jono> mART: I think the Ubuntu club people join is the Ubuntu cOmmunity
[05:38] <jono> I think we need to make sure we can make it a sexy thing for people - interesting, exciting and motivating - and make it easy to join
 jono: QUESTION: Is there any good place where people can request / fill requests for features or articles related to Ubuntu? (I'm thinking along the lines of Wikipedia's requested articles)..
[05:39] <jono> pwnedd: right now, I don't think so - but I recommend you speak to the docs team - it would be really useful to have a list of what needs doing external to the Ubuntu community, such as with wikipedia - I would love to see wikipedia filled out with more content about ubuntu
 QUESTION, How small can a loco team be? Do you need technically able people in it to be an official loco.?
[05:40] <jono> ukubuntu: I loco team can be tiny, and you don;t need to be technical - the key thing a loco needs is people who are keen to grow a team - it needs people who are willing and excited at encourage new people and encourage a team to develop
[05:41] <jono> but always check to see if a loco exists in your area first
[05:41] <jono> its essential that we have one loco per region and do not fragment
 QUESTION: I mean, what if a loco team become inactive? and is there a reward for active loco, such as more stickers and cds for that loco team?
[05:42] <jono> Belutz: the plan is that approved locos get more "stuff" available to them such as with the feisty cds
[05:42] <jono> Belutz: in the future we will send approved locos event boxes to help run events
[05:42] <jono> and we make other resources available to approved locos
[05:42] <jono> if the team becomes inactive, it is key that the team is acknowledged as not being active - there is currently no process in place for this, and there needs to be
 QUESTION:do you want another email (from me) to deal with :D
[05:43] <jono> harrisony: another mail? where was the first one - or were you the person trying to sell me Viagra? :P
[05:43] <jono> ahh, because I get heaps
[05:44] <elkbuntu> he's offering to add to your workload
[05:44] <jono> yeah, bring on the mail
[05:44] <jono> although:
[05:44] <jono> if people can answer questions before coming to me, its a huge help, otherwise I get a bit overloaded
[05:44] <jono> so, for loco questions - ask loco-contacts first as an example
 QUESTION: I have been an Ubuntu user since August of 2005. Wehn do you think linux ingeneral will finally "seize the day" and get organized enough to seriously threaten Microsoft's hold on the world's wallets?
[05:45] <jono> reiki_work: where we are different in the free software world is that we are iterative - lots of small steps
[05:45] <jono> there will be no big day when we officially kick their ass
[05:45] <jono> we are making lots of tiny steps and making progress, and its the best method - slow moving predators are always the hardest to deal with
[05:46] <jono> and Microsoft has struggled in this regard - traditionally they never saw us as a risk, and our slow moving,consistant progress snuck up on them
 jono: QUESTION: when will you write all the MOTU documentation for us, kthnksbye!
[05:46] <jono> Hobbsee: haha, unlikely, I have my own rather bountiful workload to tend to :)
 QUESTION: is there any staff members which could do Question and Answer sessions with school IT staff?
[05:47] <jono> sampbar: for education, there is a chap called Richard Weiderman at Canonical who is a good person to speak to
[05:47] <jono> and for Edubuntu, ogra is the man
 QUESTION: When is the next jono album be out in the P2P servers
[05:48] <jono> jsgotangco: heh, I am currently working on some prep bits and pieces for a new album, not to be recorded in 24 hours mind you :)
[05:48] <jono> I hope to have something released later this year :)
 QUESTION: If you were asking a question of yourself, what do you think the most important question ywould be? And what is the answer?
[05:48] <jono> mc44: wow, awesome question!
[05:49] <jono> I think I would ask "Where do you draw the line between being a Canonical employee and being a community member?"
[05:49] <jono> and the answer:
[05:50] <jono> my philosophy is that the community needs to trust me, and I will never risk that trust - so that requires that I am always open, honest and frank in my responses - with me you get me, not a corporate droid
[05:51] <jono> and part of this responsibility is tell Canonical when they are smoking crack as well as telling the community when it is smoking said crack
[05:51] <jono> trust is essential to me, utterly essential - I am here for the community first and foremost
 jono: QUESTION. Linux communities have a tendency for the over-keen but well-meaning members to dominate, perhaps not in the best way. How do loco teams and other small advocacy groups stop this from happening, and ensure Ubuntu is presented in a fair light.
[05:52] <jono> tonytiger: this is always tough, and its important that teams encourage a certain workflow - and this should be to be enthusiastic and balanced
[05:53] <jono> there are lots of examples where people get a bit keen and make an ass of themselves, but with some gentle nudges and guidance the vast majority of people get the hang of it
[05:53] <elkbuntu> what timing...
[05:53] <jono> we all need to remember that being a good community dude or dudette does not come naturally to everyone
[05:53] <elkbuntu> jono, repeat that last line when everyone is back
[05:53] <jono> ok
[05:53] <jono> we all need to remember that being a good community dude or dudette does not come naturally to everyone
[05:53] <jono> there are lots of examples where people get a bit keen and make an ass of themselves, but with some gentle nudges and guidance the vast majority of people get the hang of it
 QUESTION: with very large workload, how do youa manage your time to hang out, go to movies or find a soulmate?
[05:54] <jono> Belutz: its tough, and I enforce my work hours and relaxation hours - I do lots of other stuff with the band, recording, hanging out with friends and such
[05:54] <jono> I recently split with my girlfriend, so thats given me lots of time too
[05:55] <jono> but it is a tough balance, particularly for such a public facing job
[05:55] <jono> sometimes, I just need to unplug, but the problem is that community issues can escalate when I unplug, and for conflict that can be a bad thing
 Question There is a Ubuntu-UK loco, where could I find a more localised group that is not just a lug? are there lists? Are there such @town@ locos in the UK?
[05:56] <jono> ukubuntu: the recommendation process is to organise local meetings as part of that loco - speak to LoudMouthMan for more details
 jono: QUESTION. Sub-question then is how do you control the damage these people can do whilst you're re-educating them?
[05:57] <jono> tonytiger: some damage will always occur while people learn the ropes, but if the community is understanding, its less of an issue - and usually when someone screws up and the community makes them realise, they don't screw up again - its like when you burn your fingers on the fire as a child, you don't touch it again - the key is not making it so that kid is a shivering wreck whenever they see a fire - we need a balanced approach
 QUESTION: will Ubuntu ever be able to run without computers, and instead run just on hype? :D
[05:58] <jono> apokryphos: thats Hypebuntu 8.04  - get ready for it!!
[05:58] <jono> right
[05:58] <jono> I think we are about done
[05:58] <elkbuntu> one more.... :D
[05:58] <jono> ok :)
 QUESTION: How do you officially pronounce  Canonical and Ubuntu ( can you record you saying it)
[05:58] <jono> you will be hearing a recording of me saying it very soon ;)
[05:58] <jono> more on this later
[05:59] <jono> I pronounce it:
[05:59] <jono> can-on-i-cal
[05:59] <jono> and uh-bun-too
[05:59] <jono> thanks so much everyone for taking part, and thanks for the great questions :)
[05:59] <elkbuntu> Thanks Jono!
[05:59] <jono> jono AT ubuntu DOT com is the address :)
[06:00] <Belutz> jono, thanks for a pleasant session :)
[06:00] <jono> have a great open week folks! :D
[06:00] <pwnedd> Thanks jono :)
[06:00] <sampbar> thanks jono
[06:01] <jono> :)
[06:01] <jono> LaserJock: King Of The MOTU is next up it seems
[06:01] <jono> :)
[06:02] <elkbuntu> Paging Dr LaserJock@
[06:02] <LaserJock> elkbuntu: I'm here :-)
[06:03] <harrisony> +m?
[06:03] <elkbuntu> harrisony, only if he wants it
[06:03] <LaserJock> elkbuntu: you going to stick around to do questions?
[06:03] <elkbuntu> LaserJock?
[06:03] <elkbuntu> LaserJock, yep
[06:03] <LaserJock> elkbuntu: thanks
[06:03] <LaserJock> elkbuntu: we'll see how it goes with the +m
[06:03] <elkbuntu> do you want it moderated?
[06:03] <harrisony> oh yeah i forgot
[06:04] <LaserJock> OK, first of all, thanks for coming everybody!
[06:04] <LaserJock> This is what makes the Ubuntu community and Linux/Open source fun
[06:05] <LaserJock> My name is Jordan Mantha and I'm a volunteer developer
[06:05] <LaserJock> and a PhD student in Physical Chemistry
[06:05] <LaserJock> today we're going to try to do a whirlwind intro to packaging for Ubuntu
[06:05] <LaserJock> Monday's session had tons of great questions
[06:05] <LaserJock> but we didn't have a chance to do much actual packaging stuff
[06:06] <LaserJock> so today I'm going to try to do a little more
[06:06] <LaserJock> First thing I'm going to have us do is set up a working package development system:
[06:06] <LaserJock> sudo apt-get install devscripts debhelper dpatch cdbs dh-make patchutils fakeroot lintian pbuilder
[06:07] <LaserJock> These packages have all kinds of useful tools.
[06:07] <LaserJock> pbuilder is the only one that takes a bit to set up so I've tweaked a build script that comes with it to work with Ubuntu. first, grab it:
[06:07] <LaserJock> wget http://tiber.tauware.de/~laserjock/pbuilder-ubuntu
[06:08] <LaserJock> then you need to rename it to pbuilder-<release you want> (like feisty or edgy) and put it somewhere in your PATH. You can copy the script to pbuilder-<another Ubuntu release> and it'll be ready to go.
[06:08] <LaserJock> Now a pbuilder is a minimal Ubuntu install built in a chroot environment. What it allows us to do is build the binary packages (.deb) from the source package without having to install all the build dependencies on our machine.
[06:08] <LaserJock> It also help make sure the build dependencies declared in the source package are correct, as the pbuilder environment has only a minimal set of packages installed.
[06:09] <LaserJock> So, lets create a feisty pbuilder:
[06:09] <LaserJock> make sure to have a pbuilder-feisty script in you path and then run
[06:09] <LaserJock> pbuilder-feisty create
[06:11] <LaserJock> I can't really go into detail with all those tools, you can read more in the Ubuntu Packaging Guide
[06:11] <LaserJock> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html
[06:12] <LaserJock> if you're running dapper or edgy and it complains about making a feisty chroot go ahead an make a dapper or edgy one
[06:13] <LaserJock> WARNING: pbuilder takes a fair amount of bandwidth and time, if you're on dialup or impatient just skip this step :-)
[06:14] <LaserJock> you should be able to create a feisty pbuilder on dapper or edgy (that's the fun of pbuilder)
[06:14] <LaserJock> ok, while that's all going lets move on
[06:15] <LaserJock> elkbuntu: questions please
 QUESTION: fakeroot is the best way  for packaging works(and do packages) without high level tool, such as pbuilder or dpkg-deb...?
[06:15] <LaserJock> I strongly recommend you use a pbuilder environment
[06:16] <LaserJock> you *can* use dpkg-buildpackage but it is messy for your system and can cause some problems in the source package sometimes
[06:16] <LaserJock> elkbuntu: next
 LaserJock, QUESTION does it work for gutsy too?
[06:17] <LaserJock> I don't think so yet
[06:17] <LaserJock> we need a version of debootstrap that contains scripts for gutsy
[06:17] <LaserJock> usually that's done fairly soon after the repos open
[06:18] <LaserJock> in the mean time you can actually dist-upgrade a feisty pbuilder
[06:19] <LaserJock> elkbuntu: more?
 QUESTION: Will there be a repeat or something of this session? Because I'm not on Ubuntu right now, and I would like to try it out, ask questions etc.
[06:19] <elkbuntu> LaserJock, i wait for your prompt, i dont know when you're finished
[06:19] <LaserJock> habeeb: well, I did one on Monday, although it wasn't much of a tutorial
[06:19] <LaserJock> you can find that on the OpenWeek website
[06:19] <LaserJock> there's also a MOTU School session I did at : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/PackagingBasics
[06:20] <LaserJock> that one is pretty good (about 4hrs worth of IRC lesson)
[06:20] <LaserJock> elkbuntu: next
 QUESTION: how can we use a pbuilder environment to build *and* test packages for gusty while using feisty (i.e. without having to install gusty)? How do we switch between feisty to gusty and vice-versa using pbuild?
[06:21] <LaserJock> well, for pbuilder you just need to copy that script I gave you to pbuilder-gutsy
[06:21] <LaserJock> then you can run either pbuilder-feisty or pbuilder-gutsy
[06:21] <LaserJock> as far as testing goes, I recommend a chroot
[06:22] <LaserJock> elkbuntu: next
 QUESTION: how can we get missing debootstrap scripts -- it seems on edgy I can't make a feisty pbuilder: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/17630/
[06:22] <LaserJock> brainsik: you need to install the debootstrap .deb from feisty
[06:23] <elkbuntu> next?
 LaserJock, QUESTION: It says permission denied when I try to run pbuilder-feisty create
[06:23] <LaserJock> brainsik: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebootstrapChroot has more info
[06:24] <elkbuntu> thats all i see
[06:24] <LaserJock> tuxmaniac: you need sudo rights to run pbuilder, that could be it
[06:24] <LaserJock> ok, let's move on
[06:24] <LaserJock> we've got very little time
[06:25] <LaserJock> Debian binary packages (.deb) are built from source packages (makes sense). A source package is actually made up of 3 different files:
[06:25] <LaserJock> 1. .dsc (description) file that holds md5sums of the other files
[06:25] <LaserJock> 2. .orig.tar.gz which is the source tarball as you would download it from the program's homepage
[06:25] <LaserJock> 3. .diff.gz that holds any changes we make to the .orig.tar.gz (including the packaging info)
[06:25] <LaserJock> Now packaging can be broken down into two different tasks, making the initial package, and maintaining the package(s).
[06:26] <LaserJock> we're going to try to touch on both briefly
[06:26] <LaserJock> first off, how do we make a source package from scratch
[06:26] <LaserJock> well, there is a fairly nice tool called dh_make for that
[06:27] <LaserJock> it gives you a bunch of template files to use
[06:27] <LaserJock> so let's make a source package, shall we? :-)
[06:27] <LaserJock> we're going to package the GNU hello program today
[06:28] <LaserJock> first off, let's make some working space:
[06:28] <LaserJock> mkdir ~/hello
[06:28] <LaserJock> cd ~/hello/
[06:28] <LaserJock> then we need to grab the source
[06:29] <LaserJock> and unpack it:
[06:29] <LaserJock> wget ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/hello/hello-2.2.tar.gz
[06:29] <LaserJock> tar -xzf hello-2.2.tar.gz
[06:29] <LaserJock> now this is a typical Linux application source
[06:30] <LaserJock> but let's ubuntuize it ;-)
[06:30] <LaserJock> cd hello-2.2
[06:30] <LaserJock> dh_make -c gpl -e mantha@ubuntu.com -f ../hello-2.2.tar.gz
[06:30] <LaserJock> let me explain that dh_make line a little
[06:30] <LaserJock> the -c gpl tells dh_make that hello is licensed under the GPL
[06:30] <LaserJock> you really need to make sure that that's right
[06:31] <LaserJock> check the COPYING file in the source and the source files themselves
[06:31] <LaserJock> the -e flag tells dh_make the email address I want to use
[06:31] <LaserJock> and -f tells it what tarball to use for the source
[06:32] <LaserJock> dh_make has a set of predefined licenses
[06:32] <LaserJock> you can check them out by looking at man dh_make
[06:32] <LaserJock> if the app isn't licensed under one of those then leave -c blank and you'll fill it in later
[06:32] <LaserJock> ok, this is a single binary
[06:33] <LaserJock> you can have more than one .deb come from a source package
[06:33] <LaserJock> but in this case it is a simple app and we don't need to split it up
[06:33] <LaserJock> now, if everyone has got dh_make done lets have a look at what it did
[06:33] <LaserJock> cd debian/
[06:33] <LaserJock> ls
[06:34] <LaserJock> you will see many files. some with a .ex . These are various example files that you can use if needed. We don't need any of them so we're going to get rid of them.
[06:34] <LaserJock> cd debian/
[06:34] <LaserJock> rm *.ex *.EX
[06:34] <LaserJock> in this case we also don't need dirs, docs, info, and README.Debian
[06:34] <LaserJock> rm dirs docs info README.Debian
[06:35] <LaserJock> so right now you should have 5 files
[06:35] <LaserJock> changelog  compat  control  copyright  rules
[06:35] <LaserJock> changelog should be fairly easy to get
[06:36] <LaserJock> for me I changed the top line to:
[06:36] <LaserJock> hello (2.2-0ubuntu1) feisty; urgency=low
[06:37] <LaserJock> that reflects an Ubuntu versioning and that I"m making the package for feisty
[06:37] <LaserJock> any questions?
 QUESTION: all the dh_* tools are usable, even if my apps doesnt uses autoconfig and co ?
[06:38] <LaserJock> I don't know that all of them are usable, but yes, they should still apply
[06:38] <LaserJock> elkbuntu: next
 LaserJock, QUESTION: Any pointers to the Ubuntu versioning standard would help
[06:38] <LaserJock> ok, here's the general versioning scheme
[06:39] <LaserJock> <upstream version>-<debian revision>ubuntu<ubuntu revision>
[06:39] <LaserJock> so in this case 2.2-0ubuntu1 means:
[06:39] <LaserJock> 2.2 is the upstream version
[06:39] <LaserJock> 0 is the debian revision, indicating that this package is not in Debian (which isn't true, btw ;-)
[06:39] <LaserJock> and 1 is the ubuntu revision
[06:40] <elkbuntu> next?
[06:40] <LaserJock> yeah
 can i make the urgency ZOMG? (/me translates as 'are there specifically set urgency levels?')
[06:41] <LaserJock> the urgency levels are specified in the Debian Policy, but aren't used in Ubuntu
[06:41] <LaserJock> so just leave them at what they are
[06:41] <elkbuntu> next?
[06:41] <LaserJock> yeah
 QUESTION: The version was 2.2-1, so why change it to 2.2-0 (2.2-0ubuntu1) and not 2.2-1ubuntu1?
[06:42] <LaserJock> well, because I'm illustrating what you do if it's never been packaged before
[06:42] <LaserJock> so it wouldn't be in Debian
[06:42] <LaserJock> I couldn't find an easy one that wasn't already in Debian ;-)
[06:42] <LaserJock> ok, let's move on to the other files
[06:42] <elkbuntu> no more q's that i can see
[06:43] <LaserJock> control is an important file
[06:43] <LaserJock> it's like the "vital facts" of the package
[06:43] <LaserJock> it has the version, maintainer, build dependencies, etc.
[06:44] <LaserJock> I don't have time to go into all the detail
[06:44] <LaserJock> I'll give you some references at the end
[06:44] <LaserJock> the only thing I changed was the Description:
[06:45] <LaserJock> Description: hello word program
[06:45] <LaserJock>  This on of those classic hello world program that every programming student
[06:45] <LaserJock>  knows and loves.
[06:45] <LaserJock>  .
[06:45] <LaserJock>  Homepage: http://www.gnu.org/software/hello/
[06:46] <LaserJock> notice the dependency on debhelper
[06:46] <LaserJock> debhelper is an awesome tool (which provides many dh_ tools)
[06:47] <LaserJock> the compat file in debian/ gives the version of debhelper we're using
[06:47] <LaserJock> in this case it simply contains "5"
[06:47] <LaserJock> copyright
[06:47] <LaserJock> ok, copyright is where I see a lot of problems
[06:48] <LaserJock> Open source software can often get quite messy when it comes to licenses
[06:48] <LaserJock> in Ubuntu we try to be very very attentive to licenses
[06:48] <LaserJock> we have to be sure we are legally able to distribute the software
[06:49] <LaserJock> sometimes a program's website will say the program is GPL, for instance, but then there will be files they got from another source that aren't GPL
[06:50] <LaserJock> the goal of the copyright file is to account for the license and copyright of *every* file in the source
[06:50] <LaserJock> ok, on to rules
[06:51] <LaserJock> rules is where all the fun happens
[06:51] <LaserJock> it's the file that gives the build instructions
[06:51] <LaserJock> it's a Makefile, which you might be familary with
[06:52] <LaserJock> I really can't go into detail but you can get a lot of info from just reading the man page for each of the dh_ commands you see in there
[06:53] <LaserJock> ok, let's build a source package out of it
[06:53] <LaserJock> I use debuild
[06:53] <LaserJock> which is a wrapper around dpkg-buildpackage -r fakeroot
[06:53] <LaserJock> I run:
[06:53] <LaserJock> debuild -S
[06:54] <LaserJock> the -S says to create a source package rather than binary
[06:54] <LaserJock> it will try to sign the package, so if you don't have a gpg key or it can't find it
[06:54] <LaserJock> run debuild -S -uc -us to turn off signing
[06:55] <LaserJock> if everything works right you should get some new files in ../../
[06:56] <LaserJock> ok, did everybody make it?
 dpkg-source -b hello-2.2 failed :(
[06:57] <elkbuntu> you lost a couple i think
[06:57] <elkbuntu> LaserJock, there's a question, do you want it?
[06:57] <LaserJock> well, I'll deal with ones that didn't work after, ok?
[06:57] <LaserJock> elkbuntu: yes please
 QUESTION: Just to be sure I understood well : after I've used the script pbuilder-feisty, if I want to build a package for gutsy I just run pbuilder-gutsy without having to delete files installed by pbuilder-feisty, then just by putting feisty OR gutsy in the first line of debian/changelog everything will be taken care of?
[06:58] <LaserJock> you want to copy the pbuilder-feisty script to pbuilder-gutsy
[06:58] <LaserJock> then run pbuilder-gutsy create
[06:58] <LaserJock> that will give you a gutsy pbuilder
[06:58] <LaserJock> then you can build packages with that
[06:58] <LaserJock> you can have many different pbuilders
[06:58] <LaserJock> even Debian ones
[06:59] <LaserJock> that's one of the nice things
[06:59] <LaserJock> you can be running feisty but building gutsy .debs or edgy .debs
 QUESTION: How do I know this is using the pbuilder environment? It looks the same as when I was building packages without pbuilder setup.
[07:00] <LaserJock> ok, let's move on real quick to answer that
[07:00] <LaserJock> once we have the source package
[07:00] <LaserJock> .diff.gz .dsc and .orig.tar.gz files
[07:01] <LaserJock> we can build .debs out of them with pbuilder
[07:01] <LaserJock> pbuilder-feisty build *.dsc
[07:02] <LaserJock> and if everything works out the way it should you should end up with some hello files in
[07:02] <LaserJock> ~/pbuilder/feisty_result/
[07:03] <LaserJock> ok, that's gonna end my session
[07:03] <LaserJock> let me leave you with a few things and answer any last questions
[07:03] <LaserJock> http://www.debian.org/devel/ has links to Debian Policy and other goodies
[07:04] <LaserJock> also http://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/
[07:04] <LaserJock> which has lists of packages in Debian that are being worked on
[07:05] <LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO has some good stuff to get going
[07:05] <LaserJock> check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School
[07:05] <LaserJock> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html
[07:06] <ogra> LaserJock, dont forget the edubuntu meeting tonight ...
[07:06] <LaserJock> and especially check out the MOTU
[07:06] <LaserJock>  #ubuntu-motu
[07:06] <ogra> i bet he forgot to tell you guys that he's not only a great packager but also a big edubuntu contributor :)
[07:06] <LaserJock> OK, I've taken enough of ogra's time
[07:07] <LaserJock> I can answer some stuff in -chat
[07:07] <LaserJock> Thanks for coming everybody!
[07:07] <PriceChild> Thanks LaserJock :)
[07:07] <ogra> i'm fie :) dont worry about me... you are educating people so thats on topic ;)
[07:07] <ogra> *fine
[07:07] <PriceChild> Everyone who's just arriving, please join #ubuntu-classroom-chat so that you can ask your questions there.
[07:07] <ogra> soo, welcome everybody
[07:08] <ogra> i'm the edubuntu technical lead ... (cureently the only edubuntu dev so i can lead myself quite well *g*)
[07:09] <ogra> so i'm responsible for all the technical integration of educational software ..
[07:09] <ogra> specifically in edubuntu, but also in general in ubuntu in education
[07:10] <ogra> for the the people who dont know edubuntu yet, a short intor:
[07:10] <ogra> *intro
[07:10] <ogra> (my typing is very bad, sorry for that)
[07:10] <ogra> edubuntu is the educational version of ubuntu
[07:10] <ogra> it follows the ubuntu principles in every way ...
[07:11] <ogra> we have three variants of edubuntu, a classroom server, a workstation install and a liveCD
[07:11] <ogra> the classroom server deeply integrates the latest available thin client technology
[07:12] <ogra> and aims to do much more in the future ...
[07:12] <ogra> a workstation is a fine install for home use and the libeCD is great for testing
[07:12] <ogra> since edubuntu comes with so much educational software nd als doesnt really care about desktop environment restrictions (like running KDE apps in gnome)
[07:13] <ogra> we constantly had space problems ...
[07:13] <ogra> so since feisty we decided to ship edubuntu on two CDs
[07:13] <ogra> many of the space taking educational apps are now available on the serveraddon iso ...
[07:14] <ogra> additionally we followed a big request from the community and added all language packs to this CD
[07:15] <ogra> many of the typical edubuntu users are located in countries where you only get bad bandwith so this should help them to get edubuntu running in their native language
[07:16] <ogra> the setup is very imilar to a k12ltsp setup ... a well known edu distro
[07:17] <ogra> but with ubuntu underneath and indeed the newer tsp5 that was developed in ubuntu ...
[07:17] <ogra> *ltsp
[07:17] <ogra> any former k12ltsp users switched over and our community grows constantly since the first release we had with breezy
[07:18] <ogra> so i see some questions coming up in -chat
 question: what makes edubuntu better for educational networks/applications than regular flavour ubuntu or kubuntu?
[07:19] <ogra> Moniker42, actually only the integration of apps and the dedicated community we have ... we try to drop the strict barriers between edubuntu and "ubuntu in education" a bit over time ...
[07:20] <ogra> the plan is for example to move much of the ltp integration that happened in edubuntu over to ubuntu
[07:20] <ogra> edubuntu will include moodle in the next release in a default setup that offers you to start right away ... while moodle in ubuntu will inherit an updated package, the integration work will happen in edubuntu
[07:21] <ogra> next question ...
 QUESTION: what are your current plans for getting more UK schools and college's to adopt edubuntu as their operating system of choice
[07:22] <ogra> sampbar, well that would be a better question for RichEd (richard weidemann) who manages the ubuntu educational team ... we have invited a lot of peope to the ubunru education summit and afaik also some uk people are among them
[07:22] <ogra> beyond that we had a boot at the last BETT conference ...
[07:22] <ogra> *booth
[07:23] <ogra> edubuntu is also taking part in an EU project called edulinux but sadly the uk delegates jumped the boat recently
[07:23] <ogra> next question ...
 QUESTION: ogra, what would you guess how many people/schools are already running edubuntu?
[07:24] <ogra> several thousands ... but thats only a very rough guess, i know we are very very popular in exotic regions of this world .... like vanuatu or curacao :)
[07:25] <ogra> but i was also told that about a quater of ubuntu using FISL visitors were edubuntu users ...
[07:25] <ogra> its hard t get exact numbers here :)
[07:25] <ogra> next question ...
 QUESTION2: Do you have a team of staff or represenatives which could possibly give talks on the benefits of edubuntu?
[07:27] <ogra> we'Re about to hire a second developer in case you want talks about technical stuff ... beyond that we have a decent educational team in ubuntu so dont hesitate to ask ;)
[07:27] <ogra> next question ...
 QUESTION: Did you hear from the German Seminarix-CD (www.seminarix.org) and has compared it with Edubuntu?
[07:28] <ogra> nothlit, they didnt contact me yet ... i heard about the project yesterday the first time when someone pointed me to it
[07:28] <ogra> oop
[07:28] <ogra> s/nothlit/no
[07:28] <ogra> i would love to hear from them ...
[07:29] <ogra> especially since i'm german so it should be easy to meet up and discuss collaboration :)
[07:29] <ogra> next question ...
 QUESTION: How will you convince schools in the states that a free linux distro is better and easier to use at their school instead of things like Windows XP that the Gates foundation often donates to the schools?
[07:30] <ogra> Jack3132, i hope time will do ... and our work on bug #1 ;) but apart from that we have a good bunch of former k12ltsp users that roam around and promote their solutions on conferences etc
[07:30] <ogra> and indeed te populartity of ubutu itself keeps us very much in the face of people :)
[07:31] <ogra> next question ...
 QUESTION: Does Edubuntu work on older Macintoshes (PowerPCs, I believe)?
[07:31] <ogra> hmm
[07:31] <ogra> how old :)
[07:31] <ogra> we support G4 in ay case with edgy and dapper ...
[07:31] <ogra> i think G3 should work as well ...
[07:31] <ogra> i never tried anything older than G3
[07:32] <ogra> apart from that we could need more ppc devs to care for the now community maintined powerpc port ...
[07:32] <ogra> there are many iMacs in education i heard ...
[07:33] <ogra> naxt question ...
 QUESTION: If I want to persuade my school to use Edubuntu over a Windows solution, I'll need a strong case. Is there anywhere I'd find a list of features that a secondary (high) school would be looking for; or should I look elsewhere? Why should my school use (Ed)ubuntu?
[07:33] <ogra> we have some documents on www.edubuntu.org and there are flyers etc in preparation you can download and print out
 QUESTION:  For an office wanting to get the most out of LTSP might it be advisable to install Edubuntu rather than Ubuntu?
[07:35] <ogra> apart from that there are indeed some quite obvoius advantages edubuntu has over windows ... like no viruses etc (the general stuff) but also the ease of centralized management of an ltsp server
[07:35] <ogra> next question ...
[07:35] <ogra> heh, no
[07:36] <ogra> installing edubuntu s advisable if you want the least hassle to get a working ltsp environent ...
[07:36] <ogra> but the work you would invest to debrand it and remove the edu apps to get back to a plain ubuntu wouldnt weight out the time you save ...
[07:36] <ogra> next question ...
 QUESTION: How is Edubuntu different from Debian Skole Linux?
[07:38] <ogra> well, it is based on ubuntu, art from that we have y very good relationship to skolelinux ... i also work very close with one of the debian edu devs on ltsp
[07:38] <ogra> *apart
[07:38] <ogra> oh my ...my typing doesnt get better
[07:39] <ogra> some of the debian edu/skole people will atted the ubuntu educational summit next week ...
[07:39] <ogra> and i hope we can improve our relationship even more then :)
[07:39] <ogra> next question ...
 QUESTION: If I want to help develop Edubuntu, do I need a machine dedicated to running an unstable release?  Can I make clients connect to a "production/stable" machine or a "testing" machine fairly easily?
[07:39] <ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UES-Sevilla/ <-- btw
[07:40] <ogra> it depends *what* you develop ... :)
[07:41] <ogra> for plain package patching you surely will be fine with a chroot with an unstable development release inside ...
[07:41] <ogra> if you wnt to develop ltsp or installer integration bits i'd go at least with a virtual machine ...
[07:42] <ogra> it really depends on the task ... even bug triaging is developemnt ;) you could do that from windows ;)
[07:42] <ogra> next question ...
 ogra, QUESTION: I see a lot of packages on Edubuntu targetting school children of ages around 10 - 15. Any plans of edubuntu becoming a Educational Ubuntu for Engineering/Science Graduate students? Or has it already have the softwares by default?
[07:42] <ogra> YES !
[07:42] <ogra> absolutely
[07:42] <ogra> the spilt into two CDs will open us a lot of options we didnt have before
[07:43] <ogra> LaserJock has wored out a age driven menu mechanism we will ship eventually and i  would like to see age driven tasks on the addon CD so you can just pich your app sets by age in the future
[07:43] <ogra> *pick
[07:44] <ogra> we tried to reflect that direction a bit by adding rasmol and qucad to the feisty release
[07:44] <ogra> *qcad
[07:44] <ogra> we will revisit the selection of aps we ship at the educational summit i mentioned above
[07:44] <ogra> next question ...
[07:44] <ogra> *apps
 QUESTION: do you have any figures on how much an average school saves running edubuntu over running microsoft windows?
[07:45] <ogra> lots, i suspect ... but no, i dont have numbers ...
[07:46] <ogra> to sad will is gone for the day, i think if you ask willvdl in #edubuntu if he's around he can get you some ....
[07:46] <ogra> next question ...
 QUESTION: What are the best ways to help edubuntu (although i am not a coder)
[07:46] <ogra> we had our first release of the edubuntu handbook with feisty ...
[07:47] <ogra> we are constantly looking for authors to help out here :) (it took three releasest get what we have now ... its a very slow process, more people would help speeding that up)
[07:48] <ogra> apart from that testing packages and finding bugs is always appreciated ...
[07:48] <ogra> if you have some coding skills patches as well :)
[07:48] <ogra> the biggest help is always people that step up to help iso testing during development :)
[07:48] <ogra> next question ...
 ogra QUESTION: What can you say about the localization level/percent/need of the *applications* present in Edubuntu apart from general *buntu localizations?
[07:49] <ogra> not much, i'm not up to date on the edubuntu specific packages (and i'm not sure you could filter them) all edubuntu packages are reflected in rosetta and in the language packages though ...and indeed we inherit most of the translations from ubuntu
[07:51] <ogra> i think the shipping of all available language packs is a good start to get edubuntu into specific places where we we'Rent before due to bandwith restrictions, so i hope that will gain us some more translations in return :)
[07:51] <ogra> next question ...
 QUESTION: Are there any key applications that educators have asked for but are not available on edubuntu?
[07:51] <ogra> many  ...
[07:52] <ogra> often educators know an app from the proprietary world where they dont find an equivalent for in the oss world ...
[07:52] <ogra> sadly not everything is replaceable here as long as no project steps up to develop such tools
[07:53] <ogra> we try to get developers to do it throught things like googles summer of code though
[07:53] <ogra> but you cant volunteers ;)
[07:53] <ogra> *cant force
[07:53] <ogra> next question ...
 QUESTION: do you have any plans to work with educational pc distributors to provide edubuntu preloaded on pc's?
 QUESTION: Most public schools can only buy hw from big sellers (not from small companies) because of government rules, so they end up with windows pre-installed. Are there big companies offering edubuntu?
[07:54] <PriceChild> (they're similar)
[07:54] <ogra> i*d love to i think thats something to bring up at our OEM team ...
[07:55] <ogra> beyond that we'll have intel attending the educational conf and presenting the classmate PC they develop ...
[07:55] <ogra> who knows where that leads us ;)
[07:55] <ogra> next question ...
 QUESTION : I use edubuntu for my 5yr old daughters pc - love it, thanks. Only thing i really have on my wishlist is integrated parental controls. (Christian edition has it) it would be neat if edubuntu had it as a standard feature - especially as its aimed at kids. adding parental controls into e/ubuntu isn't straight forward for mr average. Whats your views on this being added to edubuntu?
[07:56] <ogra> its one of the most important features imho ....
[07:56] <ogra> but sadly also one of the features that have most imapct in the whole underlying system
[07:56] <ogra> it needs very deep desktop and system integration and thus a very good spec that covers all possibilities ...
[07:57] <ogra> i suggested t have a a minimal parental control implementation through a summer of code project so we would have something to build on, but sadly no developer stepped up to do it
[07:58] <ogra> it is still on my list ... and i'd love to see someone stepping up to do it :)
[07:58] <ogra> next question ..
 QUESTION: Is there a list of those requested programs anywhere?
 QUESTION: Is there a list of applications that edubuntu really needs but doesn't have so volunteers can look over it?
[07:59] <ogra> we used to have one during the breezy and dapper cycles ... currently no such lists exists since we didnt have the space for new additions until the switch to two CDs
[08:00] <sabdfl> evening all
[08:00] <ogra> you can look through the edubuntu wiki for the old lists ....
[08:00] <ogra> next question ...
[08:00] <ogra> oh
[08:00] <ogra> no questions anymore ... feel free to ping me in #edubuntu :)
[08:00] <PriceChild> Thanks very much ogra :)
[08:01] <ogra> dont forget if you are near sevilla next week .... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UES-Sevilla/
[08:01] <ogra> ;)
[08:01] <sabdfl> thanks ogra!
[08:01] <ogra> thanks all :)=
[08:01] <sabdfl> i was just answering a question from a newspaper about why free software is so important for education
[08:01] <sabdfl> so thanks to ogra for leading that work
[08:02] <ogra> sabdfl, thanks for letting me ;)
[08:02] <sabdfl> ok, will someone volunteer to chair the session? pricechild?
[08:03] <PriceChild> I'm good :)
 can you ask what the status of the commercial repos are, and what canonical's plans for them are
[08:03] <sabdfl> cool, thanks
[08:03] <sabdfl> Hobbsee: the commercial repos are expanding as companies realise that it's worth them going to the effort of putitng together proper, supported packages
[08:04] <sabdfl> many companies that come from Windows or UNIX don't appreciate how cool and important packaging is
[08:04] <sabdfl> hopefully, once they have a taste of that, they move towards a better understanding of free software in general
[08:04] <sabdfl> and have more information to base their own decisions about license freedom around
[08:04] <sabdfl> do you have any specific things you would like to see in there?
[08:05] <PriceChild> (Hobbsee is asleep now)
[08:05] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: Several ubuntu pages and also bug #1 in launchpad note that ubuntu is entirely free (as in free speech), however in the default install this is not true (drivers etc.), are there plans on making this more transparant to the user?
[08:05] <sabdfl> fql: we should always qualify that as "only free applications"
[08:06] <sabdfl> at least, i fix it that way in the wiki when i run into it
[08:06] <sabdfl> we have had the driver exception in place since the beginning, so it's not as though this has changed
[08:06] <sabdfl> hopefully, the new flavour will also carry the "pure free" flag
[08:06] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: sabdfl - Mark, what new features would you like to see implemented in ubuntu in the next couple of years? and are there any features you would like to see improved?
[08:07] <sabdfl> of course :-)
[08:07] <sabdfl> there are two separate lines of attack, i think
[08:07] <sabdfl> one is "the race to parity"
[08:08] <sabdfl> we need to get our category-specific apps to be as good as the current best of breed proprietary app in that category
[08:08] <sabdfl> we need a word processor that is as good as word
[08:08] <sabdfl> a spreadsheet as good as excel
[08:08] <sabdfl> we already have a better browser :-)
[08:08] <sabdfl> then there is the second race, which is "the thought leader", which is all about innovation
[08:09] <sabdfl> we saw with firefox, when it hit parity, that the extension mechanism was a HUGE driver of creativity and innovation
[08:09] <sabdfl> this is why i fund bazaar - because i think innovation comes from the periphery of the community as much as from the center
[08:09] <sabdfl> and we need revision control which is cross-platform, robust, and distributed
[08:09] <sabdfl> i would like to see us reach parity in more desktop apps
[08:10] <sabdfl> and of course, i'd like people to start to see free software as the place where the genuinely groundbreaking innovation happens
[08:10] <sabdfl> this is also why i think it's so important to get compiz/beryl into ubuntu
[08:10] <sabdfl> because they are fertile grounds for creativity
[08:10] <sabdfl> the proprietary guys are not far ahead
[08:10] <sabdfl> if we give developers the tools and an audience, they will do amazing things
[08:10] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: Today I read (German: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/88800) that Jane Silber has said that Firefox 2 might come for Dapper Drake? Is this true? And do you want to upgrade all firefox-dependent packages or should it be just additionally to Firefox 1.5? Doesn't this stand in a strong contrast to the LTS?
[08:12] <sabdfl> i can't find jane either, so not sure of the context. my gut feel is its unlikely we would make radical changes to LTS releases without a long -proposed test period
[08:12] <sabdfl> my other gut feel is that jane doesn't speak unless she's certain of the facts, and probably knows more about that than me
[08:12] <sabdfl> :-)
[08:12] <sabdfl> so i can't really add anything useful now, and will just ask for the next question!
 QUESTION: i read an interview with andreas barth criticizing ubuntu. what do you think, in which way can ubuntu and debian profit from each other in future? http://www.golem.de/showhigh2.php?file=/0704/51531.html&wort[] =andreas&wort[] =barth
[08:12] <PriceChild> (link is again in german)
[08:13] <sabdfl> again, hard for me to respond, i can't read the german
[08:13] <sabdfl> however, i think debian and ubuntu already benefit hugely from one another
[08:13] <sabdfl> we have brought debian millions of new users, in a category that it was never previously taken seriously in, the desktop
[08:14] <sabdfl> in addition, many new DD's come through Ubuntu, or first discover debian through Ubuntu
[08:14] <sabdfl> we are expanding the debian universe, which is very good for debian
[08:14] <sabdfl> we lead a lot of very useful work, which eventually gets included in debian
[08:14] <sabdfl> they are considering upstart, for example
[08:14] <sabdfl> and also considering our live cd infrastructure
[08:14] <sabdfl> perhaps even the ubuntu installer
[08:15] <sabdfl> they largely depend on work we do on the toolchain, on python, on java etc
[08:15] <sabdfl> the flip side is also true
[08:15] <sabdfl> we benefit hugely from debian's depth and breadth
[08:15] <sabdfl> we consider ourselves to be part of the debian family
[08:16] <sabdfl> it's sad for me, that when ubuntu releases there are 2 messages about it on debian planet - one of celebration from a person who contributes to both, and one a bug report
[08:16] <sabdfl> but i'm happy that, when debian releases, there are tons of congratulations to debian on planet ubuntu
[08:16] <sabdfl> i would like to see better collaboration
[08:16] <sabdfl> many dd's routinely read patches that we automatically mail to them when a package is modified in ubuntu
[08:16] <sabdfl> others just ignore them
[08:17] <sabdfl> it would be nice to have debian recognise the contribution ubuntu makes
[08:17] <sabdfl> we get twice the volume of bug reports now, not because we are more buggy, but because we reach a wider audience
[08:17] <sabdfl> debian would benefit if they took an interest in ensuring that their packages are getting that wider exposure
[08:17] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: what is the status with cnr ? any idea of when it gonna be usable for ubuntu ?
[08:18] <sabdfl> zorglu_: i know the linspire folks are working on that, and i hope it will be ready soon! but i don't have an eta
[08:18] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: how do you feel about the way you are portrayed by the online comic strip Everybody Loves Eric Raymond?
[08:19] <sabdfl> i love it!
[08:19] <sabdfl> did you see today's?
[08:20] <sabdfl> http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/taking-freedom-further
[08:20] <sabdfl> as they say in the movie business "did ya spell my name right? there's no such thing as bad publicity" ;-)
[08:20] <sabdfl> next question?
[08:20] <PriceChild> <[doctor] > QUESTION: Mark, what about "Ubuntu Control Center" as Yast or Mandriva Control Center ... A lot of newbies ask for it
[08:21] <sabdfl> doctor: first we'd need to have good packages, so if those users want to start work on that we can get them into universe with MOTU help, and then consider them for main
[08:21] <sabdfl> next question?
 question: mark, what do you think of Charles Simonyi's claim to be "the first nerd in space"
[08:23] <sabdfl> hey, i know a bunch of russians and americans who are just as nerdy as me and him, and went up before either of us
[08:23] <sabdfl> nonetheless, i think it's great that he flew, and hope he had a smooth flight
[08:24] <sabdfl> it's a privilege to get up there, and i'm envious of anybody who goes without me!
[08:24] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: What are you doing to counter the claims that launchpad is evil because it is closed source?
[08:24] <sabdfl> funny, i had an email about that the other day, from a gmail address :-)
[08:24] <sabdfl> first, i would like to have LP published under the GPL
[08:25] <sabdfl> i have a plan to get there, in a way that will (a) not fragment the eyeballs, and (b) allow us to continue to pay the developers
[08:25] <sabdfl> i don't see the point in releasing it until we can get those two things right
[08:25] <sabdfl> the main issue right now is that LP is a centralised design, when really we need a federated standard that works for bugzilla, roundup, sourceforge, collab, launchpad etc
[08:26] <sabdfl> if we released it, and 10 people set up their own instances, then the work required to keep track of everything LP keeps track of would go up by 10x
[08:26] <sabdfl> alternatively, the quality of info in LP would go down by 10x!
[08:27] <sabdfl> so, for example, right now if a bug is filed in zope
[08:27] <sabdfl> and the zope guys think it's also in the ubuntu zope packages
[08:27] <sabdfl> they can get us to look at it just by updating LP
[08:27] <sabdfl> and if they think its in gentoo too, they can link to their bug tracker
[08:27] <sabdfl> and they only do that once per community
[08:27] <sabdfl> if there were multiple LP's, they would lose that
[08:28] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: I've seen some of the estimated numbers for *buntu, but I'm curious... how many unique IP addresses did the canonical servers see on th 19th of April?
[08:28] <sabdfl> wow, not sure i have that number
[08:29] <sabdfl> but there were 53 mirrors before we announced, and 130 by the end of the day, that we know of
[08:29] <sabdfl> so hits on canonical.com are a small fraction of total
[08:29] <sabdfl> i think we were serving 12 gigabits / second from ourselves and top 5 mirrors :-)
[08:29] <sabdfl> probably 20 gbits/s in total
[08:29] <sabdfl> 3 cd's per second
[08:30] <sabdfl> for 12 hours
[08:30] <sabdfl> pretty amazing
[08:30] <sabdfl> if you were in #ubuntu-release-party, you know it was quite a rush :-)
[08:30] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION Does Canonical have a relationship with the OLPC folks?
[08:30] <sabdfl> gumpa: not officially, no
[08:31] <sabdfl> i would like to, i think their work is amazing, and ubuntu is a good fit
[08:31] <sabdfl> but we've never been asked to participate
[08:31] <sabdfl> next question?
 sabdfl QUESTION: How do you evaluate the chances/challenges for Ubuntu based business models. Can Canonical try to push governing bodies in proper ways to spread Ubuntu in addition to local voluntary efforts?
[08:31] <sabdfl> deniz_ogut: good question, i guess we will have to find out!
[08:32] <sabdfl> we are already seeing that many governments like ubuntu, and base their own efforts on it
[08:32] <sabdfl> we have official relationships with some of them, and it works very well
[08:32] <sabdfl> but it's not universal
[08:32] <sabdfl> free software is still very new in government terms - they take a LOOOONG time to think things through
[08:32] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: I am leading the development of a highly customized CDD, and am considering switching to Ubuntu partially as the base. Would I be expected to track all of our work in Launchpad ? I am concerned with keeping security-bugs secret (and cannot pay Canonical lots of money for this, sadly).
[08:34] <sabdfl> pixelpapst: you would never have to use LP, use whatever works best for you
[08:34] <sabdfl> we will have a security bug framework that lets you keep those confidential without being a subscriber (but only for the designated security team)
[08:35] <sabdfl> and if your project is community driven and non-commercial, we will in many cases give you free access to LP advanced features
[08:35] <sabdfl> next question?
 question: are there any plans for large scale marketing campaigns a la Firefox for Ubuntu(full page adds etc..)
[08:35] <sabdfl> darich: you mean bigger than the billboards? that was a fun campaign
[08:35] <sabdfl> all in good time
[08:36] <sabdfl> first we have to crack the corporate market, and be sustainable
[08:36] <sabdfl> we are taking a very unconventional approach, but we are on good track
[08:36] <sabdfl> next week you will see two big announcements, one of which will probably dominate the media
[08:36] <sabdfl> but both are really nice steps towards sustainability for the project
[08:36] <sabdfl> our goal is to be sustainable and completely free
[08:36] <sabdfl> we are neither right now
[08:37] <sabdfl> but we are moving towards that goal very steadily
[08:37] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: Mark, do you feel that open office is in the right direction to becoming as good as word and excel?
[08:37] <sabdfl> tough question
[08:38] <sabdfl> i'm getting worried about their developer approach
[08:38] <sabdfl> it still feels like a closed community
[08:38] <sabdfl> i know they WANT to fix that
[08:38] <sabdfl> the head of that group at Sun has the right ideas, but it's hard to move a big ship
[08:38] <sabdfl> oo.o has been a huge boost for free software
[08:38] <sabdfl> because it is cross platform
[08:39] <sabdfl> i had lunch with an interesting lawyer today, and he was telling me that he installed oo.o and was "really impressed that it worked so well"
[08:39] <sabdfl> he was amazed that it just opened word docs nicely, and he could find his way around easily
[08:39] <sabdfl> great!
[08:39] <sabdfl> but it doesn't have the rapid evolution that we see in other Gnome or KDE projects
[08:40] <sabdfl> i think AbiWord, and KOffice would be slicker, faster, lighter if they had more developer time
[08:40] <sabdfl> but because OO.o is the 800 pound gorilla, it's hard to get a lot of developers on those others
[08:40] <sabdfl> 63,000 unique IP's hit releases.ubuntu.com on 19 april, not bad for half a day's work :-)
[08:40] <sabdfl> so i would like to see oo.o get "more open"
[08:41] <sabdfl> it took mozilla long time to gestate and produce firefox
[08:41] <sabdfl> we need the same thing from oo.o
[08:41] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: You have written a quite interesting piece about DRM on your blog, so what would be your recommendation for the music industry. How - in your opinion - should they position themselves?
[08:41] <sabdfl> grail: i don't give free business advice outside of my blog :-)
[08:41] <sabdfl> next question?
 sabdfl QUESTION: in an interview you said that maybe gutsy+1 could be the next LTS-release. is it already concluded which release will be the next lts?
[08:41] <sabdfl> no
[08:42] <sabdfl> tech board needs to discuss this, and canonical needs to take a view on resources too
[08:42] <sabdfl> there are lots of questions
[08:42] <sabdfl>  (a) which will be the next LTS
[08:42] <sabdfl>  (b) will we follow the same process as we did for Dapper, or do it differently?
[08:42] <sabdfl> and many others
[08:42] <sabdfl> i think it will be gutsy+1 or gutsy+2
[08:42] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: some developers are wondering why UDS Sevilla specs from canonical employees are being organised on a private wiki and not publicly on launchpad
[08:43] <sabdfl> i don't see anything in the proposed list that looks that way
[08:43] <sabdfl> there are some specs i know of which have not been submitted
[08:44] <sabdfl> because they relate to unannounced partnerships
[08:44] <sabdfl> (but hey, there's only a week in which we have to announce them)
[08:44] <sabdfl> everything at the UDS's happens transparently
[08:44] <sabdfl> *sometimes* we'll have private meetings with partners there
[08:44] <sabdfl> but the sessions are generally open to all participants
[08:44] <sabdfl> we once had a funny situation where we had a private meeting with a very big partner
[08:45] <sabdfl> and then we realised that one of the folks, who we thought worked for them, they thought worked for us, and was actually a community participant who worked for a media company
[08:45] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: which areas of the ubuntu community do you think need the most focus towards their expansion at the moment in order to cater for the huge amount of bug reports and new users that Ubuntu is seeing?
[08:46] <sabdfl> developers and bug triagers
[08:46] <sabdfl> there's a nice bug triage community forming
[08:46] <sabdfl> they have a fantastic impact, because they help to distinguish between bugs which can be reproduced and those which cannot
[08:47] <sabdfl> they help the developers to focus on the items that are most important
[08:47] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION:  Why is 'ubuntu' a trademark of Canonical and not the Ubuntu foundation?
[08:48] <sabdfl> Canonical is the funder of the brand
[08:48] <sabdfl> The Ubuntu Foundation is a trust that exists in the event that Canonical can no longer support Ubuntu
[08:49] <sabdfl> so, when we made a long term support commitment, i figured out how much money we needed in the bank to meet that commitment
[08:49] <sabdfl> and setup the Ubuntu foundation
[08:49] <sabdfl> and gave them that amount of money
[08:49] <sabdfl> no matter what happens to Canonical, the money is there to meet the support commitment
[08:49] <sabdfl> you can safely deploy Dapper and you will not suddenly find yourself unsupported
[08:49] <sabdfl> but we don't touch that money, it's an insurance balance
[08:50] <sabdfl> so, in that light, it makes more sense to have Canonical manage the brands
[08:50] <sabdfl> it invests in the marketing, and also makes decisions about the ways in which people can use the brand
[08:50] <sabdfl> so far, it's working well
[08:50] <sabdfl> http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy
[08:50] <sabdfl> next question?
 Question: For a large number of people, the number one reason for getting a pc is for gaming. Right now however there are few mainstream games written for or even compatable with linux. Do you think there is anything the ubuntu team can do to change that, and open up linux to a larger population?
[08:51] <sabdfl> i agree this is a big, important question
[08:51] <sabdfl> gaming developers are like other ISV's
[08:51] <sabdfl> they write software to sell software, so they want to see (a) how many people use a platform, and (b) what percentage of them WOULD PAY to use their software on that platform
[08:52] <sabdfl> that gives them a market size
 QUESTION: Please buy transgaming, and package cedega for us :(
[08:52] <PriceChild> :P
[08:52] <sabdfl> they then compare that to the cost of the port
[08:52] <sabdfl> and the lost time in making the port (while their competition works on new products)
[08:52] <sabdfl> and then take a decision
[08:52] <sabdfl> they key is not who owns cedega, the key is the business model that supports it
[08:53] <sabdfl> no point in buying it and changing the model if that means it becomes unsustainable
[08:53] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: Do you not think it would be a good idea to push the sun java stack as part of a solution in the enterprise and create a good partnership with SUN
[08:56] <sabdfl> i'm cautious of the word "push"
[08:56] <sabdfl> we try to choose the best free software components
[08:56] <sabdfl> and make those instantly available
[08:56] <sabdfl> and have everything else accessible from the network package repos
[08:56] <sabdfl> i do think the SUN implementation of Java is the best
[08:56] <sabdfl> and can't wait for it to be free software
[08:56] <sabdfl> most of the core should be ready for gutsy
[08:56] <sabdfl> some components will not make it because of third-party license issues
[08:57] <sabdfl> but it's a big step forward
[08:57] <sabdfl> i do like to partner with the best companies in each sector
[08:57] <sabdfl> and for Java stacks, that would have to be SUN
[08:57] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: how would you convince a school or company that ubuntu is ready for the desktop? there are very few other local deployments, so the impression is that nobody else is using it...
[08:57] <sabdfl> maccam94: schools and companies are different
[08:58] <sabdfl> for education, free software has huge advantages
[08:58] <sabdfl> the tremendous breadth of free software makes it possible to teach EVERYTHING using computer tools
[08:58] <sabdfl> art
[08:58] <sabdfl> science
[08:58] <sabdfl> maths
[08:58] <sabdfl> computer science
[08:58] <sabdfl> music
[08:58] <sabdfl> you name it
[08:58] <sabdfl> i don't know a school that has all of the windows apps to teach those
[08:58] <sabdfl> but it's easy to do so with Edubuntu or K12-LTSP
[08:59] <sabdfl> schools and companies do share the same support / ecosystem concerns
[08:59] <sabdfl> and there its just a question of showing them where they can buy support and training
[08:59] <sabdfl> it will take time
[08:59] <sabdfl> next question?
 QUESTION: What steps would you advise an experienced programmer (who lacks F/OSS development experience) to take in order to quickly become a valuable contributor to the community?
[09:00] <sabdfl> find something you are personally really interested in!
[09:00] <sabdfl> preferably a smaller component
[09:00] <sabdfl> that's written in a language you know
[09:00] <sabdfl> then climb in!
[09:00] <sabdfl> a good community will welcome you
[09:00] <sabdfl> if you don't feel welcome, look elsewhere
[09:00] <sabdfl> so WELCOME!
[09:00] <sabdfl> next question?
[09:00] <sabdfl> (last, probably)
 QUESTION: lets suppose you're on the way to a public discussion with a debian enthusiast (not the debian "evangelist" himself, but quite close). what would your strategy be to come out of it as the "winner"?
[09:01] <sabdfl> hey, we've already won with him, we're on the same side
[09:01] <sabdfl> thanks everybody!
[09:01] <sabdfl> phew
[09:01] <PriceChild> Thanks very much :)
[09:01] <sabdfl> fingers hurt
[09:01] <giangy> burp
[09:01] <giangy> :)
[09:01] <popey> thanks sabdfl
[09:01] <pixelpapst> cool
[09:01] <pixelpapst> thanks mark
[09:01] <maccam94> thanks mark!
[09:01] <artdeco> sabdfl: mark, we (heart) you!
[09:01] <j1mc> thanks, mark!
[09:01] <annimar> thanks a lot
[09:01] <sabdfl> that was fun :-)
[09:01] <suzan> thanks mark
[09:01] <spr0k3t> rock on Mark!
[09:01] <pwnedd> Thanks mark :)
[09:01] <Helmi> thanks for your time, Mark
[09:01] <ezphilosophy_> thanks
[09:01] <habeeb> I bet that McKinney didn't wait for that answer.
[09:01] <nic-oooh> thx
[09:01] <Sanne> thank you sabdfl, very informative session
[09:01] <LoCusF> thanks mark
[09:02] <grail> thanks mark
[09:02] <annimar> thanks PriceChild!
[09:02] <Gaxeio> thanks mark
[09:02] <PriceChild> hehe no problem annimar :)
[09:02] <Belutz> thanks mark, although my questions didn't make it in time :)
[09:02] <McKinney> i think that answer was pretty cool :-)
[09:02] <sampbar> thanks mark
[09:02] <lapland> sabdfl: thank you :)
[09:02] <fsman> thanks
[09:02] <cddk> thanks
[09:02] <kunstar> thanks
[09:02] <maccam94> PriceChild: thanks for handling the questions ;-)
[09:02] <granite230> thanks
[09:02] <varka> thank you mark
[09:02] <McKinney> thank you sabdfl
[09:02] <habeeb> arigato sabdfl !
[09:02] <EADG> Nice session, thanks
[09:02] <Moniker42> sabdfl, pricey wouldn't let you help me with my computing coursework....
[09:03] <spr0k3t> oh noes!
[09:03] <LoCusF> :))
[09:03] <pixelpapst> sabdfl, Lurkan wanted to point out a communication failure with Canonical - might want to /msg him :)
[09:03] <habeeb> Go get them popey !
[09:03] <cddk> P genhr, sabdfl
[09:03] <PriceChild> popey, which is lacoste's nick?
[09:03] <popey> flacoste:
[09:03] <flacoste> PriceChild: flacoste
[09:03] <popey> :)
[09:04] <popey> Right then.
[09:05] <PriceChild> popey, I'm sorry I have to run off myself :(
[09:05] <popey> Greetings one and all, this session is all about the Launchpad Support tracker
[09:05] <popey> ok no probs PriceChild
[09:05] <popey> <intro type="standard">
[09:05] <popey> My name is Alan Pope, I'm an Ubuntu user just like most of you. I don't work for Canonical, I'm not a developer, I can't really code, have no artistic skills whatsoever. It's not looking good is it!?

[09:05] <popey> I just happen to have used Ubuntu quite a bit as a user and home-system administrator when I discovered the support tracker last year, and I decided to contribute to the community by helping out with that.
[09:05] <flacoste> And my name is Francis Lacoste. I work for Canonical as lead developer of the Launchpad Answer Tracker.
[09:06] <popey> * Introductions to Answers
[09:06] <popey> "Answers" is the Launchpad support tracker: http://answers.launchpad.net/ .
[09:06] <popey> It's a web based system allowing users to post questions which are hopefully answered by experienced users. The people answering the questions are Ubuntu users (and sometimes developers) who give their own time to answer the questions. It should be noted that there is no Service Level Agreement (SLA) and no obligation for people to reply.
[09:07] <popey> Whilst the code and hosting of Answers in Launchpad is provided by Canonical, the data (questions and answers) is provided by users, developers and as such I believe that it is vital the community get involved.
[09:07] <popey> There's two ways to access the support tracker, via the web and via email. You can use either or both methods to access.
[09:07] <popey> Some people think of Answers as a simple forum in that people post a new thread (ticket/question) and other people answer it (reply) via a web page. Most forums fulfil this basic functionality. Many of the usual things you find in forums are not there however (signatures, avatars and so on).
[09:08] <popey> Some people consider Answers to be like a simple mailing list. People post a new question on the website which is sent out via email to subscribers who can reply to that mail. Further replies are also sent out to users and as such a conversation "thread" can happen as it does on mailing lists.
[09:08] <popey> So if you are familiar with either a forum or a mailing list, then using Answers should make sense to you.
[09:09] <popey> It's worth pointing out that it should not be thought of as a real-time chat system like IRC. Users can post questions and the answer may not come for hours or days, or never at all in the worst case. There have been occasions where people post questions and then within a few minutes start replying themselves asking why they haven't got an answer yet.
[09:09] <popey> I put this down to familiarity with the system, and usually send a polite reply explaining in one or two lines how the system works, or point to a wiki page explaining it.
[09:10] <popey> You can subscribe to the support tracker via email so you get sent all questions and answers as plain text emails to your launchpad primary email account. You can reply to the questions directly via email by simply hitting reply in your browser. If you use email, your own email address is masked to prevent spam, and stop people mailing support contacts directly.
[09:10] <popey> Your reply goes back to the support tracker mail account and then back out to the original question poster, and anyone else subscribed to that ticket.
[09:11] <popey> Each mail has a link which takes you directly to the ticket. You can click the links in the mail and answer the question on the website rather than reply to the mail.
[09:11] <popey> Be warned that if you subscribe to all the support tickets, you will get an awful LOT of mail (around 100 or more a day). It's often hundreds of mails a day, so if you want to help out I suggest either configuring some good filtering, or simply use the second option which is to use the answers website only, and not receive.
[09:12] <popey> Note that even if you don't subscribe to the tracker to get all mails from all tickets, you will still get mails from tickets that you answer via the website. You can of course unsubscribe, or choose not to receive mail deliveries from tickets you have answered.
[09:12] <popey> You don't have to subscribe to all the mail of course, in fact not many people do. You can just subscribe to the tickets you are helping on, or ones that you might have an interest in - for example if you are also experiencing the same problem and want to follow how the problem is fixed.
[09:12] <popey> Ok, lets take a break and answer a couple of questions..
[09:13] <popey> QUESTION: Why not use the _forums_?
[09:13] <popey> (from habeeb sorry)
[09:14] <popey> Answers is tightly integrated into launchpad, so you can for example easily link to bugs, or create bug reports out of tickets
[09:14] <popey> (which you can't do on the forums)
[09:14] <popey> I suspect flacoste will talk about some other new features in a bit in answers too
[09:15] <flacoste> Answers has additional advantages over forums too
[09:15] <popey> in addition I can get the support tickets as mails and reply to those mails to help people
[09:15] <flacoste> a) It tracks the status of the question, soyou know what still needs answer
[09:15] <popey> this is something forums cannot do
[09:16] <flacoste> b) when asking a new question, users get a list of similar questions first
[09:16] <flacoste> c) launchpad karma :-)
[09:16] <popey> you can assign your ticket to a product/project so that developers of that product/project can focus on answering those tickets
[09:16] <flacoste> and from the Launchpad perspective, the Answer Tracker can be used for any Launchpad-hosted project
[09:17] <popey> the forums are massive
[09:17] <popey> the developers would have a hard time trawling through the forums looking for support questions IMO
[09:17] <popey> it's easy in answers, there is one url to go to for all outstanding questions for one product
[09:18] <popey>  < kunstar> Question: So how is LP answers different to the ubuntu forums? Why should I use LP and not the forum or vice versa?
[09:18] <popey> one of the problems with all support systems - forums and answers alike, is that you have no way of knowing whether the person answering the question actually has a clue what they are talking about
[09:19] <popey> ok, forums have the coffee beans so you can see how many posts they have made, which gives you some level of confidence
[09:19] <popey> launchpad has karma as flacoste says, and you can easily look someone up and see what teams they are in, what they have done, so you can assess their credentials
[09:19] <popey> and decide whether you want to take their advice or not.
[09:20] <popey> < habeeb> QUESTION: Couldn't ubuntuforums get hacked to be able to do that? I mean, creating a whole section in the Launchpad sounds unnecessary to me..
[09:20] <popey> you would need to speak to the forums guys about that
[09:21] <popey> given that answers is clearly a strategic part of launchpad, which is a strategic part of the development and support process of Ubuntu, I don't see why it would necessarily go away or be replaced by the forums
[09:21] <popey> especially as that would put flacoste out of a job :)
[09:21] <popey>  < niekie> QUESTION: Does answering questions on Launchpad answers affect Launchpad karma?
[09:21] <popey> yes. if you lookup someones karma for example:- https://launchpad.net/~alanpope/+karma  you can see how they got it...
[09:22] <popey> note nearly all of my karma comes from answering support tickets
[09:22] <popey> ok, back to the notes..
[09:22] <popey> As answers is part of launchpad this means there are launchpad features we can make use of.
[09:23] <popey> From within the answer tracker you can link a support ticket to an existing bug (or bugs), or convert a support ticket into a bug report. If you just type "BUG 1" it will automatically become a link to that bug in launchpad for example
[09:23] <popey> Answers are language dependent. A user can report a problem in their own language and get replies in the same language.
[09:23] <popey> Ok. a little about actually using answers..
[09:24] <popey> https://answers.launchpad.net/ - base URL for answers, which allows you to see all questions for all products registered in launchpad.
[09:24] <popey> https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu - URL for Ubuntu specific support tickets. Within this are the packages that make up the Ubuntu distribution. NOTE: This includes Kubuntu and Xubuntu packages too. There is no specific answers URL for Kubuntu/Xubuntu (that I am aware of)
[09:24] <popey> https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad - URL for Launchpad specific support tickets. If you discover a problem in the answer tracker in launchpad itself, you can file support ticket here.
[09:25] <popey> https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+addquestion - Direct link to ask a new question. I paste this on irc when people ask support questions in inappropriate channels.
[09:25] <popey> And the next one is the most important url..
[09:25] <popey> https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+questions?field.status=Open - Direct link to currently open questions - PLEASE take a look at some and see if you can answer it!
[09:25] <popey> s/it/them
[09:26] <popey> Unfortunately not all questions get answered
[09:26] <popey> This is of course a problem for all support systems - hopefully as the answer tracker becomes more well known, we can reduce the number of open, and unsolved tickets. We can also help some beginners with a little googling and pointing them in the right direction.
[09:26] <popey> If you don't know the answer I would recommend _not_ replying with "I don't know". We don't really want answers flooded with "I don't know"s on loads of tickets, and if you do answer, they lose their "open" status, so it's difficult to get an overview of completely unanswered tickets.
[09:27] <popey> Some questions may converted to bugs. Most are just answered with a link to the wiki, forums, documentation or a 3rd party site like linuxprinting.org or debian-administration.org :)
[09:27] <popey> If replying via mail, make sure your mail client sends plain text, wraps text nicely, and you trim out the original text.
[09:27] <popey> * Tips on how to find answers to questions you don't know the answer to already
[09:28] <popey> Start with the wiki! Do a search in http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ for the computer name, product, model number or whatever detail you have been given. There is a surprising amount of information in the wiki which is in the format of easy to understand How-Tos. Don't copy and paste the contents, direct users to the specific page or pages that may help.
[09:28] <popey> Google is your friend! You would be amazed how many tickets are solved by simply searching google for the error message. I am not suggesting you find the first hit and paste it in, take a moment to read a few of the hits on google and see which best suits.
[09:29] <popey> Please don't tell people to google. This doesn't help them. Many people don't understand how to search, and throwing them JFGI, RTFM or the URL to google is NOT going to win them over.
[09:29] <popey> Try things out yourself! For example some questions ask about how to compile or install some oddball 3rd party application which isn't in the repository. First thing of course is make sure it really *isn't* in the repository. If it is, that's a quick win! If it isnt then maybe you could try downloading the source and try yourself.
[09:29] <popey> This may confirm problems the questioner has, and maybe you could file a bug
[09:29] <popey> Alternatively it could be that they missed some step that you can tell them about.
[09:30] <popey> Send people to the wiki wherever possible - if you detail a procedure, then someone else in 6 months time may come to find that via google, and it may no longer be a valid set of steps. The wiki is editable and in theory should be updated when procedures change, as such we should direct people there instead wherever possible.
[09:30] <popey> * Finally, some specific common issues
[09:31] <popey> Some questions come up all the time.
[09:31] <popey> "I need a driver for my printer"
[09:31] <popey>  - take a look at http://linuxprinting.org/ for a good compatibility list, try the vendors website - some do actually have Linux .ppd drivers
[09:31] <popey> "How do I get my video card working"
[09:31] <popey>   - use the wiki! There are now very few video cards that are tricky to get going under Linux, and the ones that are, are most often documented pretty well
[09:31] <popey> "My wifi card doesn't work"
[09:32] <popey>  - Again, the _vast_ majority of cards are either directly supported in Linux, require ndiswrapper or madwifi to make them work. The wiki is the best place to start here.
[09:32] <popey> "You all suck and I want to rant about it!"
[09:32] <popey>  - Try to calm the person down and figure out what the real problem they have is. Often it's the cumulation of a number of little niggles that sends them over the edge. Remember the Code of Conduct :)
[09:32] <popey> "My screen resolution is wrong"
[09:32] <popey>  - I see this probably at least 2 or 3 times a week. Usually it's just a case of dropping to a terminal and reconfiguring x, but some hand-holding is often useful as the terminal is a scary place for beginners.
[09:33] <popey> 
[09:33] <popey> Ok, that's all my prepared material, how about I answer a few questions, then maybe flacoste can talk about new features coming up
[09:33] <popey> < spd106> QUESTION: Does the proprietary nature of launchpad and I'm assuming answers too, prevent better integration with ubuntuforums?
[09:34] <popey> Personally I (and the ubuntu forums admins) don't think ubuntu forums and launchpad will ever integrate fully.
[09:34] <popey> the technologies and aims are so very different
[09:34] <popey> the forums have a very low barrier to entry, are popular with new users and have a massive base of users and some really committed experts
[09:34] <popey> BUT
[09:35] <popey> it isn't integrated into launchpad, and other features flacoste will talk about (and already has) are missing and aren't likely to ever appear in the forums
[09:35] <flacoste> i may add a little here
[09:35] <popey> Go ahead caller..
[09:35] <flacoste> someone raise that integration issue on the launchpad-users mailing list a while ago
[09:36] <flacoste> Launchpad will grow better XMLRPC interface in the future, so displaying of LP content in the forums will be possible
[09:37] <popey> shall we move on?
[09:38] <flacoste> btw, is the ubuntuforums free-sotfware?
[09:38] <popey> heh
[09:38] <flacoste> popey: we can move to the next question
[09:38] <popey> < salty-horse> QUESTION: how do I subscribe to receive all question related to a specific package?
[09:39] <popey> I am not sure you can for a specific package
[09:39] <flacoste> you can
[09:39] <popey> ahh yes
[09:39] <flacoste> just go to the source package Answers page and use 'Set answer contact'
[09:39] <popey> https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/beryl-core/+questions  <- note on the left "Set Answer contact"
[09:39] <popey> if beryl-core is your thing
[09:39] <popey>  < kunstar> QUESTION: So does this mean it would be better for the community if I were to ask questions in LP instead of the forums?
[09:40] <popey> tricky one to answer
[09:40] <popey> the community is a big place and includes all those thousands of people in the forums
[09:40] <popey> if you answer questions on the forums, or on launchpad, google will find it
[09:40] <popey> in the future people can google and thus find your answers wherever they are
[09:41] <popey> however, the integration in launchpad makes that easier
[09:41] <popey> want to find all the problems with a package...?
[09:41] <popey> https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ < insert package name here > /+questions
[09:41] <popey> so you can look back quickly through all the questions for one package
[09:41] <popey> with the forums you would have to search to find that
[09:42] <popey> the data in launchpad is very structured, the data in the forums isnt
[09:42] <popey> (as well structured)
[09:42] <popey> (imo)
[09:42] <flacoste> i think either place is good, what is important for the community is that questions get answered wherever they are
[09:42] <flacoste> but of course, I would suggest you use the Answer Tracker, but I have a conflict of interest there
[09:42] <flacoste> popey: next question?
[09:42] <popey>  < kunstar> QUESTION: So does this mean it would be better for the community if I were to ask questions in LP instead of the forums?
[09:42] <popey> 20:28 < robertj> popey: QUESTION: Is there _ever_ a time I don't know should be used?
[09:42] <popey> oops
[09:42] <popey> yes
[09:42] <popey> I have used it myself
[09:43] <popey> when i have had an exchange of question and answers on one ticket
[09:43] <popey> and they finally exhaust my knowledge (this does happen :) )
[09:43] <popey> i may finally say "I am sorry, I don't know" in the hope someone else will answer
[09:43] <popey> but for a brand new question, no, there is no reason to reply "I dont know" in my opinion, it doesn't really benefit anyone
[09:43] <popey>  < Treenaks> QUESTION: Does gpg-signed mail work?
[09:44] <popey> dunno, I guess so given i have replied and all my mails are GPG signed by default
[09:44] <flacoste> GPG-signed email work
[09:44] <popey> there you go
[09:44] <flacoste> but signature isn't required
[09:45] <flacoste> you just have to post from a registered email address
[09:45] <popey> 20:33 < kunstar> QUESTION 2: LP answers sounds great and I'll definitely be using it from now on, but if you had to estimate, how much of the knowledge that is contained within the forums is currently encapsulated within LP answers? Am
[09:45] <popey>                  I better off sticking to the forums until LP Answers gets more beefed up with content?
[09:45] <popey> thats a paradox isnt it|?
[09:46] <popey> if everyone waited until there was knowledge there would be no knowledge
[09:46] <popey> Personally I prefer answers..
[09:46] <popey> ..for me it works well, I can answer support questions from anywhere that i have access to email
[09:46] <popey> ok, any more questions?
[09:47] <popey> flacoste: do you want to outline some new funky features?
[09:47] <flacoste> Ok, so some future developments we are considering for the Answer Tracker:
[09:47] <flacoste> We will add more knowledge base features.
[09:48] <flacoste> It will be possible to manage 'FAQ-type' of answers.
[09:48] <flacoste> One tricky issue here is how to leverage the existing Ubuntu community material (forums, wiki, etc.)
[09:49] <flacoste> We are also looking into improving the display of users credentials.
[09:49] <flacoste> To make it easier to know to access the confidence you can have in someone answer.
[09:49] <flacoste> You currently have to look-up the user' karma yourself now.
[09:50] <flacoste> Another great thing about the Answer Tracker is that it is multi-languages.
[09:51] <flacoste> You can already post and answer questions in your native language.
[09:51] <flacoste> But the UI isn't localized yet, we want to fix that now.
[09:52] <flacoste> In sketchy lines, that's what is currently in the pipeline.
[09:52] <popey> Groovy
[09:53] <flacoste> If you have any suggestion or encounter any problems, please file a bug on https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad-answers/
[09:53] <flacoste> feel free also to ping me in #launchpad if you want to discuss your idea with me
[09:53] <flacoste> or post to the launchpad-users mailing list
[09:53] <flacoste> Any more questions?
[09:53] <popey> I guess answers is turning more into a helpdesk system than a forum/mailing list with those new features
[09:53] <flacoste> that's exactly the plan
[09:53] <popey> so it should be easier to make the comparision between answers and ubuntuforums
[09:54] <popey> and be able to easily *see* the difference :)
[09:54] <popey> Ok, if there are no more questions, than thanks everyone for listening, thanks to flacoste, and click here--> https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+questions?field.status=Open  :)
[09:55] <flacoste> thanks a lot popey!
[09:55] <popey> np
[09:56] <salty-horse> thanks!
[09:56] <fmodgon1> !
[09:57] <ditsch> thanks flacoste and popey! can't wait to see that growing...
[09:57] <flacoste> which will present the Bazaar session
[10:01] <mohnkern_> Any more sessions today?
[10:01] <poolie> two more
[10:01] <poolie> ok, let's go
[10:01] <mohnkern_> Cool.
[10:02] <poolie> this session is about Bazaar
[10:02] <poolie> i'm Martin Pool, one of the Bazaar developers
[10:02] <poolie> we also have jam, John Arbash Meinel, also a Bazaar developer
[10:02] <jam> Hi all
[10:02] <poolie> to start with, what is Bazaar?
[10:03] <poolie> Bazaar is a distributed version control system
[10:03] <poolie> it keeps a history of changes to a source code tree
[10:04] <poolie> and aids in: finding out what was changed, when, why, by whom
[10:04] <poolie> merging
[10:04] <mohnkern_> QUESTION: Like Subversion?
[10:04] <poolie> merging changes made by different people
[10:04] <poolie> undoing mistakes, doing code review and so on
[10:05] <poolie> A: yes, like subversion
[10:06] <poolie> the biggest difference is that Bazaar allows distributed work, so you can commit when you don't have a network connection to the server
[10:07] <Treenaks> QUESTION: How 'good' is Windows support? Are there plugins that do 'graphical things' like the GTK plugins in Linux? Do the GTK Plugins work in Windows if you can find pygtk + gtk for windows?
[10:07] <poolie> in fact, you don't need to run a server at all, you can just host files on a web or ftp server
[10:07] <poolie> other version control systems include cvs, git, monotone, mercurial, darcs, clearcase, etc
[10:08] <PriceChild> (Please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat )
[10:08] <poolie> A: there is ver good windows support, there is a windows configuration tool and gtk tools to look at history, diff, commit, etc
[10:08] <poolie> they do work on windows
[10:08] <poolie> and some people are working on a tortoisebzr program to integrate it into the shell
[10:08] <jam> The current guis are all built on gtk+pygtk, which has implementations on both Mac and Windows
[10:09] <jam> Except the Visual Studio integration
[10:09] <jam> which is done in C#, IIRC
[10:09] <poolie> i'd like to do a few more introductory questions, then take people through a short tutorial/demonstration
[10:10] <poolie> ok so
[10:10] <poolie> we're going to quickly go through a demo of how you might contribute a fix to someone else's source tree
[10:11] <poolie> if you're on ubuntu, do 'sudo apt-get install bzr' to make sure it's there
[10:11] <poolie> on other platforms look at bazaar-vcs.org
[10:12] <poolie> this tree is hosted on launchpad - hosting of Bazaar branches is one feature Launchpad offers as well as bug tracking, translations, etc
[10:13] <poolie> so if you're ready to go let's
[10:13] <poolie> type
[10:13] <poolie> bzr branch http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mbp/+junk/seminar
[10:14] <poolie> this will download a copy of my sample branch into a directory called 'seminar'
[10:14] <poolie> you've now made a new independent branch
[10:14] <poolie> cd into there
[10:14] <poolie> you'll see one file
[10:15] <poolie> you can type 'bzr log' to see the history of when it was created
[10:15] <poolie> there is also a .bzr directory containing control information
[10:15] <poolie> now edit 'hello' in your text editor
[10:16] <poolie> add a line or something, save and exit
[10:16] <poolie> try 'bzr diff' and it will show you what you changed
[10:16] <poolie> try 'bzr status' and it will tell you just the name of the file you changed
[10:17] <poolie> 'bzr help' tells you other things you  can do, like adding, deleting and renaming files
[10:17] <poolie> if you're happy with your change, do 'bzr commit' and it will ask you for a message describing the change
[10:18] <poolie> this commit has now gone into your branch, which has diverged from mine
[10:19] <poolie> if you do bzr log, you'll see that your name is in there too
[10:19] <poolie> this works without you needing to be added to our project, or even to have a launchpad login
[10:19] <poolie> which is different to cvs
[10:20] <poolie> if you have a launchpad account, you can push your changes back up, with
[10:20] <poolie> bzr push sftp://USERNAME@bazaar.launchpad.net/~USERNAME/+junk/seminar
[10:21] <poolie> the +junk stands in place of a product name - normally they must be associated with a product so we can link them up
[10:21] <poolie> now i've also committed a change to my branch
[10:22] <poolie> so if you do 'bzr merge' it will integrate your changes with what i've done
[10:22] <poolie> this will probably cause a conflict if we both changed the same part of the same file
[10:22] <jam> Loic: QUESTION: When I do "bzr commit" it opens nano. What am I supposed to do there?
[10:22] <jam> Loic: It is giving you the opportunity to write a commit message
[10:23] <jam> Type some basic information about the change
[10:23] <jam> and then save and quit your editor
[10:23] <jam> when you do "bzr log" afterwards
[10:23] <jam> it will show the commit along with the message you associated
[10:25] <poolie> ok so please say in -chat if you've successfully got a file with conflicts?
[10:26] <poolie> now you'll want to edit that file, to resolve the conflict - remove the marker lines, and choose one or both new bits that you want to keep
[10:26] <poolie> then do 'bzr resolved hello'
[10:26] <poolie> and then you can commit again, this time you can give the message on the command line with
[10:26] <poolie> bzr commit -m "merge from martin"
[10:27] <poolie> it's also worth mentioning that in the upcoming 0.16 release, you can also link to bugs when you commit
[10:27] <poolie> for launchpad, bzr commit --fixes lp:202020
[10:28] <poolie> ok as some people have noticed
[10:28] <poolie> after your commit, you can run bzr lgo
[10:28] <poolie> or even log
[10:28] <poolie> and it shows you the merged-in revisions indented
[10:30] <poolie> ok, so this has just got the fix into your branch
[10:30] <poolie> if you wanted to share it with me you have a few option
[10:30] <poolie> you could push to launchpad, and tell me about the branch
[10:30] <poolie> or to another web server
[10:31] <poolie> or, you can do 'bzr bundle' which gives you an enhanced diff suitable for mailing to a person or a list
[10:31] <poolie> and they can then do 'bzr merge BUNDLEFILE'
[10:31] <poolie> ok, so to wrap up, i'll show you how to start a new project
[10:32] <poolie> we need to introduce the concept here of 'repositories' which is a directory that stores information about a set of related projects
[10:32] <poolie> to use less disk space, and so that when you push or pull from them, it does it only once
 QUESTION: When would I use merge, and when would I use pull?
[10:33] <poolie> pull means 'make this branch a mirror of theirs', merge means 'integrate their work into mine'
[10:33] <poolie> so normally you use pull when you have a mirror of a remote brancnh
[10:34] <poolie> you might also use it in a long-running branch when all its changes have been integrated upstream
[10:34] <poolie> pull keeps your changes in the working copy
[10:34] <poolie> jam, anything to add on that?
[10:34] <jam> rulus: question: so if I get it right, a 'pull' creates a 'branch' that will automatically 'merge'?
[10:34] <jam> Not quite
[10:35] <jam> "pull" will update your working tree with the changes from upstream
[10:35] <jam> in a similar way that "merge" will
[10:35] <jam> But from a user perspective they have a different "feeling".
[10:35] <jam> When you use "pull" you mean to say "I want this branch to be a copy of theirs".
[10:35] <jam> Which is different from "I want to include their changes in my work" (merge)
[10:35] <jam> 'pull' doesn't create the branch
[10:35] <jam> It just updates your branch to be a copy of their branch
[10:36] <jam> frosty__: QUESTION: So what if there are conflicts when you pull?
[10:36] <jam> frosty__: There are 2 types of "conflicts" that can occur during 'pull'
[10:36] <jam> 1) if you have uncommitted changes, and upstreams changes conflict with yours
[10:36] <jam> these are resolved like any other file-level conflicts
[10:37] <jam> by editing and then running 'bzr resolve'
[10:37] <jam> 2) If you have made local commits, and they have made commits
[10:37] <jam> In that case, you can't turn your branch into a copy of theirs
[10:37] <jam> because you have committed changes
[10:37] <jam> So you either need to
[10:37] <jam> switch and use "merge"
[10:37] <jam> *or* use "pull --overwrite"
[10:38] <jam> which says "Make mine like theirs, and throw out my changes"
[10:38] <poolie> ok
[10:39] <poolie> so to wrap up 'starting a new project'
[10:39] <poolie> to make a new branch, do 'bzr init DIR' - can be either an existing unversioned source tree, or it will create a directory
[10:40] <poolie> you can tell bazaar about files to ignore - typically build products like *.o or *.pyc
[10:40] <poolie> using 'bzr ignore', or by editing .bzrignore at the top level
[10:41] <poolie> then do 'bzr add' to tell bazaar you want to version all the files, or you can add them individually
[10:41] <poolie> then commit, and you're off and running
[10:41] <poolie> that concludes my tutorial content -- jam, anything to add?
[10:41] <jam> poolie: I think that is good, as long as people don't have more questions on the demo
[10:42] <poolie> let's do some questions then
[10:42] <jam> ih70: QUESTION: Why do we need yet another source control system. What objectives does bzr achieve that are not possible in say SVN?
[10:42] <jam> frosty__: QUESTION: Why should someone use bazaar, over another distributed system? Say, darcs, git, or mercurial?
[10:43] <jam> Well, each of the projects takes a little bit different approach to the world of VCS
[10:43] <jam> To start with
[10:43] <jam> SVN... the juggernaut of centralized version conttrol
[10:44] <jam> SVN has evolved into a very good system for versioning source code where everyone is given access to the same repository
[10:44] <jam> well, at least a 'good' system...
[10:44] <jam> What it doesn't handle very well, though, is repeated merging between branches
[10:44] <jam> Or being able to commit "offline"
[10:44] <jam> Like on your laptop while on a plane
[10:45] <jam> But the biggest difference is the idea of "decentralized".
[10:45] <jam> With bzr, anyone can create a local branch of an existing project
[10:45] <jam> and make their changes, committing as they go
[10:45] <jam> And then present their changes to 'upstream' in a fashion that is easy to merge back
[10:46] <jam> With SVN, anyone not priveledged with commit access has to fall back to diff and patch
[10:46] <jam> making them a second-class citizen
[10:46] <jam> With bzr, you have full access to version control
[10:46] <jam> It actually follows the Open Source philosophy very well
[10:48] <jam> Now, pretty much all of the DVCS systems support that too. Which is what the "Distributed" is in Distributed Version Control System
[10:48] <jam> So why "bzr" versus darcs, git, monotone, hg, ...
[10:48] <jam> I could go into a blow-by-blow of how we function differently from each of them, but that is a very long discussion
[10:49] <jam> The short answer is that we have tried (and continue to put a lot of effort) into making bzr a great system that you enjoy using
[10:49] <jam> We support multiple workflows from fully distributed to mostly centralized (like SVN).
[10:49] <jam> We are getting better and better integration with Launchpad
[10:49] <jam> allowing you to track open bugs and close them from a simple 'bzr commit'
[10:50] <jam> And it is also the system that Ubuntu is switching to for its development
[10:50] <jam> because it wants to make it easy to contribute changes back and forth between Ubuntu and upstream (debian, etc)
[10:50] <jam>   Admiral_Chicago: jam: can't SVN be set up with anyone having commit rights
[10:51] <jam> SVN can be set up to give everyone access rights
[10:51] <jam> but that is sort of like changing your web page to remove any password protected logins
[10:51] <jam> Anyone can now introduce changes into your core
[10:51] <jam> With bzr, everyone has access to create changes
[10:51] <jam> but *you* have control over your mainline
[10:51] <jam> And bzr just makes it (much) easier to merge their changes
 QUESTION: (As a non-programmer) Suppose I would like to have a versioned home directory (not just source, most of it text though) (the Video directory excluded) and have the home of my laptop "merged" regularly with the home of my desktop. Would using bzr make sense somehow? (Or are you aware of better alternatives, maybe transparent versioned file systems for Ubuntu?)
[10:52] <jam> Also, SVN doesn't handle merging between branches within the same repository very well... we let you do it from anywhere
[10:53] <poolie> Adhemar: bzr could be good for that; you should also look at Unison, which is just a two-way smart synchronization tool
[10:53] <jam> Adhemar: I use bzr for the files I modify, like .vimrc .bashrc, etc
[10:53] <jam> but for most projects
[10:53] <jam> I have a separate bzr branch for them
[10:54] <jam> rather than having everything in one mega-project in my home dir
[10:54] <jam> ih70: QUESTION: How well does bzr deal with binary files?
[10:54] <jam> ih70: In general, bzr handles binary files well
[10:54] <jam> The binary delta code is not optimal
[10:54] <jam> but it does produce deltas
[10:55] <jam> The biggest shortcomming is handling of *large* (100MB+) files.
[10:55] <jam> We are focused right now on making bzr very good for source control
[10:55] <jam> and versioning CD ISO's is a very different project
[10:55] <jam>   rmunn: QUESTION: If I'm using bzr, but upstream isn't, how do I easily create a patch to present to them? Is there a "bzr push --patch" or some such command?
[10:56] <poolie> rmunn: easiest is
[10:56] <poolie> bzr diff -r ancestor:../upstream .
[10:56] <poolie> if your import of their upstream branch is in ../upstearm
 QUESTION: Can you push through web proxies, using dav, and on web servers needing authentication?
[10:57] <poolie> yes, you can
[10:58] <jam> Loic: QUESTION: Is it possible to use bzr for package creation, and has it been done (pros/cons)?
[10:58] <jam> Loic: I know there are a couple of ways to do this
[10:58] <jam> There is a "bzr-buildpackage" plugin
[10:58] <jam> to help automate generating debian packages (and possibly rpms as well)
[10:59] <jam> In general, with bzr you can have finer grained details about what has been changing, associated with the actual changes to the files
[10:59] <jam> versus a "release 1.1" has these changes versus "1.0".
[11:00] <jam> rulus: question: I'm using bzr for school reports made in Latex. I'm thinking of hosting the branch on my webspace as a backup, and then commit changes to it through bzr. However, I don't want the whole world to read my school reports. Is there some bzr gpg plugin to en/decrypt on the fly?
[11:00] <jam> rulus: At present, there is not an encrypted layer
[11:00] <jam> however, you can use .htaccess files to control who has access to your files
[11:00] <poolie> time to finish...
[11:01] <poolie> rulus: someone is working on an encrypted storage format
[11:01] <jam> and there is a Google SoC project for having an encrypted repository
[11:01] <jam> I think we need to wrap it up
[11:01] <jam> Since it is time for the next session
[11:01] <jam> But I would like to invite everyone to #bzr if they have any more questions
[11:05] <jam> As always, questions are more than welcome in #bzr
[11:05] <jam> Thanks to everyone who participated.
[11:05] <PriceChild> Thanks jam, poolie
[11:06] <PriceChild> imbrandon, You're up :)
[11:22] <PriceChild> Seems like imbrandon is away, hopefully he will be able to hold this session on thursday at the same time.
[11:22] <PriceChild> Sorry all.
[11:22] <deniz_ogut> Thank you PriceChild. It was a great day.
[11:30] <shawarma> PriceChild: What is Brandon's session about anyway? I can't seem to find a description anywhere.
[11:31] <PriceChild> "Resource Primer"
[11:31] <shawarma> Yes?
[11:31] <shawarma> Meaning?
[11:31] <shawarma> :-)
[11:31] <Nergar> no sessions in progress?
[11:33] <n2diy> Nope, the teacher cut class! :)
[11:38] <eolo999> great!?!
[11:38] <eolo999> he got asleep